Can you believe in Darwin-Evolution and be truly Christian?

BioLogos, founded in 2007 and funded with a grant from the theistic evolutionary Templeton foundation, declares on its home page that it “explores, promotes and celebrates the integration of science and Christian faith.” But by their own admission, they do not offer anything specifically Christian; their article ‘On what grounds can one claim that the Christian God is the Creator?’ says: “The creation story of BioLogos is compatible with many faith traditions. Muslims, Jews and Christians alike can align their faith with the BioLogos account of our origins, and there is no way to give a scientific proof for one monotheistic faith over another.”

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http://none Derwood Fetherbay

I question the Christianity of those who believe that evolution is compatible with an orthodox Christian faith based on an inerrant Bible. I include men like B.B. Warfield etc. I could attack his view of the Bible on inerrancy, preservation etc. which is also a departure from the Reformers, but decline for later discussion. (see "What Is Darwinism?, Charles Hodge, p-12, 15, 21)
bob vinton

no way at all,as genesis is the basis for the Bible
Otto

In the Bible, it states that one day to the Lord may be as a thousand years ( 2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." a thousand could well be thousands in the translation. With God all things are possible.
- John D. Griffin
  
  What you failed to pay attention to was the Genesis Account: And the evening and the morning were the 1st day, And the evening and the morning were the 2nd day. And the evening and the morning were the 3rd day, and so on….. There has never been an evening that was 500 years long. Neither has there been a morning that was 500 years long. Luke 24:25 (King James Version)
  
  25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Bobber

Evolution is a lie propogated by liars and believed by fools.
Vince

I may be in error but I think that is the position of the Roman Catholic church.
- David Raineri-Maldon
  
  If you look at kolbecenter.org , you will see there are limits to the Cattholic Church's acceptance, for lack of a better word, of evolution.
- Lee Geronimo
  
  Who really cares what the RCC believes. Every time Christians are having an interesting discussion. Some one has to bring in what the RCC believes. So what.
Alvalee

Evolution and Christianity are mutually exclusive because to believe in evolution is to believe that there was death BEFORE sin, which is contrary to God's Word. There would have been no death, if not for Eve's sin. But evolution requires million of years of death. While there are changes and adaptations WITHIN a species, nothing changes from one species to another– or else why are there still monkeys at all?
- ValDM
  
  AMEN SISTER!
Merriel

Darwin, himself, said that his theory is just that, A THEORY!!! Look that up in your dictionary. Just in case you don't own a dictionary, theory=abstract thought: SPECULATION.
http://www.ConclusiveProofOfGod.com Dennis Marcellino

I give conclusive, objective, scientific proof that the God of the Bible is one and the same as the Creator of the universe in my book "THE PROOF that God exists and the Bible is true." It and its contents and an excerpt can be seen at http://www.ConclusiveProofOfGod.com. I also have a DVD that gives that proof at http://www.LighthouseBooksAndMusic.com.
John R. Bloxson Jr

Evolution Darwinian or any other form is in fact incompatable with true Christianity through mans rebellion death enters into the world. So the long blanks called for by gradual evolution death is the key here God created everything in perfect order but when death entered the cosmos it brought decay, death, and a gradual degeneration of all things. So the only real and viable answer is no, one can not believe in Darwinian Evolution and be a Christian. Those who call themselves Christians and believe in Evolution are instead religionist much like the Sadduccees in Jerusalem
Phil

"Science" books change every year, the Bible remains the same. We just have to wait until "Science" catches up!!!
ron hert

I find it very interesting that in the 1980s a majority of prominent US Scientists thought that Darwinism was false. But later, we see Satan back to his old tricks, and one of those Scientists reversed himself in a suttle manner. Because there are two different written accounts of Paul's conversion, I still can understand the fact that Paul received a special witness from Jesus Christ, as well as, receiving many more miracles in is life and ministery after the first. To understand the mysteries, one must realize that God is eternal and has been around as long as the rocks on Mars and longer, so, those types of modern findings don't bother me. Just because a famous Scientist doesn't believe in God anymore is a small thing in the eternal round of God. The fact of Jsus Christ's divinity is within my Testimony of him-yet I cannot totally understand the workings of the Holy Ghost-I can only appreciate the companionship and listen to the Holy Ghost when he speaks to me-yes there are modern day miracles. I refuse to believe that a loving father would not provide for the guidance and safety for his children-is this less than what God our Father in Heaven can do for us-I think that our Father in Heaven can and does constantly for us daily; if we will open our eyes and our hearts.
ChuckL

Christianity is not at odds with the idea that Darwin type evolution is common in this world. God is credited with being: Omniscient, He knows everything. He is Omnipotent. He can do all things. He is omnipresent. He is everywhere and every when at all times.

How can we acknowledge this and still try to limit God and claim that He can not use the process of evolution to accomplish His goals? either we are wrong about God being Omnipotent, or He can choose any method to accomplish His goals.
http://bible.postedpost.com/ Santino Christian

Darwin returned to England from South America in 1838 and continued to ponder the theory of evolution. Santino Christian
cosmic joke

It seems to me that evolution is a very intelligent design feature. We evolve within our lifetime, and we evolve over the centuries. God made a world that is constantly changing. It would be stupid to not make the creatures you created, evolve as the world changes. I don't believe that anything is random when it comes to evolution, though. There have been studies that have found that there are two ancestors that are common to everyone. There are studies that show there was an "explosion" of new animal species about the time that the geological record says there was a major flood. I also find it interesting how more and more scientists are finding it harder to believe that there is no God, the more they study their sciences.
Howie

I believe that when God said "Let There Be Light" that's when the Big Bang happened. But as for the eveolution of man I totally disagree. I think Darwin must have been tipping the bottle a bit too much when he came up with the theory of evolution. Of course, this opened up the door for satan to turn the truth of God into a lie for those who accept that theory.
rick

This is all the difference in believing and not believing in God. "Faith" is the power of the believer. "Science" is only one the modern tools used by Atheists/nonbelievers, to try to extinguish the very last spark of faith in our world. The fact is; God is to big to be taken into the scope of science to be observed or studied. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" . . . "Faith, however, can be observed, as the outcome of Faith can also be observed. Let me see, Science offers excuses for why God isn't real, along with clinical death and no after life. The Bible, on the other hand, offers all the believers benefits, including daily fellowship with the Creator Himself, and Life everlasting. The Bible is our book of faith, it never was intended to be a book of science. Faith means all the difference in coming to know God, or remaining at an Ignorant loss, of all things good and everlasting. It all comes down to a simple choice, either believe the cracked pots, or believe God. "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." I choose the "Faith in God and His Holy Word!" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Come on! I dare somebody to top that offer, Until science can top this, then I don't want to hear another word about some Foolish theory, about the origins of Man.
http://www.Aceriterbooks.com Ralph Filicchia

If evolution is true, how lucky we are that every living animal, human, etc., somehow evolved into both male and female so they could reproduce. Was this all pot luck? " The male impregnates the female, whether you are a squirrel, rat, a player for the Red Sox, a weasel, a guppy, or a buffalo. How come not one of them evolved to maybe drool on his right foot, rub it on his left foot, and have the fluid get into his blood stream to maybe reproduce all by himself?

Really, why not? If it's all random mutation stuff anything should be possible. Right?
- Lynda Hardin-Poston,
  
  Uh, Ralph, ALL creatures are "male or female." Certain amphibians can actually inseminate themselves. They can be either male or female or even both if the other gender is not available. So that shoots down your theory.
  
  Also, there ARE unusual mutations all the time. Many are stillborn or do not live more than a few hours, but they DO happen. You must live in a vacuum not to know both the above facts.
Jim S.

For those unaware, the Bible has changed many times through out the centuries, books have been discarded, books have been added and many chapters appended, changed and out-right abandoned. To say that the Bible has always been the same is erroneous, period. The argument that the Scripture and evolution are incompatible miss some basic scientific facts, carbon dating, which I use as a Geologist, is a fairly accurate method of determining chronology or the approximate age of rocks and fossils, it is NOT the end all – be all for dating anything but simply a way to bring focus into an attempt to UNDERSTAND the earth. The Scriptures, as I truly believe, are the interpreted Word Of God. As a Minister, I also know by careful study, that many times throughout history, MAN has changed what is acceptable as a CORRECT interpretation of the Bible, making this difficult to sort out what was Given By The Hand Of GOD and what has been inserted by unscrupulous royalty, as a whole, I accept the overall Bible as the Word of God, knowing that man is fallible and is prone to mistakes therefore some mistakes have entered into this Divine Book. I find it puzzling that some people find the earth is supposedly 4000 years old and then make a claim that the entire Bible is totally true, given that hundreds of thousands of carbon dating tests has shown the earth to be near 3.8 billion yeas old and that careful study, historical anecdotal evidence support repeated changes sometimes at the whim of a King or other "authority" to the Bible… my belief system finds acceptance in Jesus Christ, the Bible as a whole for my Spiritual Self, and seeing the evolution in the fossil record with my own eyes for my Scientific Self. Not finding difficulty with accepting both as TRUE, being able to reconcile the Biblical time as Otto says in his quote:

In the Bible, it states that one day to the Lord may be as a thousand years ( 2 Peter 3:8) “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” a thousand could well be thousands in the translation. With God all things are possible.

This works in the time-line I use and many other "scientists" also use, as there is a large segment of the science community that are Christian, and have accepted Christ as their personal Savior and yet work daily in the earth sciences, space and biological sciences. To brand ALL "scientific study" as an abomination, is to deny the true wisdom of God, whom we are created in His image… to say the earth is only 4000 years old is foolishness when some trees show growth rings over 10,000 years in the fossil record. (I've had to count them) I would not say those people are stupid, just MISLED as many are with frauds like the book of mormon, and some other "modern" types of man invented and controlled works. Mormonism is another subject that is fraught with deception and "man-made" scriptures and ripe for discussion in another forum.

May the Lord Bless each and every one of you, and bring goodness and Grace upon you and yours.

Jim S.
- rick
  
  If God is great enough to create all things, He is certainly powerful enough to preserve His own Word. He tells us that Heaven and Earth may pass away, but His Word will never pass away. Now a person can either believe His Word, or haphazardly approach His Word as being something no more than an edited piece, of Man Made Literature. Were you there when He performed all these Creative wonders? None of us were. He tells us His ways are past finding out. Yet ,there are those with Carbon dating tools that claim they have dated evolution into the picture and God will just have to be content to go along with them in what they profess. There are different versions of God's Word, but they all agree to the message that is universal for all of man. That message is simply this: He is God from Everlasting to Everlasting. He is the Creator of All things. We are His Creation. He loves His Creation. He said "It is Very Good!" The Bible is the book of Faith, Not a book of Science, Chronicled History, or Evolution. There are those well intentioned in the past who have tried to use the Bible to those extents, they've done no one any favors in their attempts. The Bible is the Standard of God's teaching to man. We do not need to hear all of the illeged or supposed ways He may or may not have worked, in order to bring all these things into existence, it is all supposition. It is enough to know He is God and His Bible is written for the furtherance of our faith. He never intended for us to know all of His ways of doing things. We don't have the power or ability to do them anyway. Thousands of tree rings are fascinating. I love that kind of information. To me it only attests to His Greatness once again, as a small glance of the works of The Ancient of Days. Don't know when Adam was created. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is God created Him, and breathed into him the breath of Life. These are the things that really matter. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Bible and God's love for Man. That's how I see it, as looking through a looking glass dimly. But I and millions of others rely on His promise, that some day we will see clearly, and see Him Face to Face. It all sounds very simple and it is on our part. The part that's beyond our power or understanding; He has already taken care to completion: He did that on the cross of Calvary.Thy word is like a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path, I shall hide it's words in my heart, that I might not sin against God.
- cyoder
  
  If Jim S. is truly a geologist, he must be aware that many reputable scientists believe that carbon dating isn't accurate for anything more than a few thousand years old. To say that carbon dating can prove something 3.8 million years old is simply ludricrous.
- Cecil D Garrett
  
  Carbon dating could not possibly be used to date rocks that are 3.8 billion years old. It is not even used to date rocks, but the remains of once living plants or animals. The dating method requires an assumption: that you know the concentration of radioactive carbon in the aqtmosphere when the subject was alive. Were you there then?
  
  Nobody knows these concentrations for sure. All the tests based on radioactive decay have this basic assumption: that they know the starting concentrations of everything when the object was first formed, It is always nothing but a guess, based on the prejudices of the scientist making the "measurement". A real scientist would willing to admit this limitation on his "scientific truth".
  
  Cecil G.
  - http://darwin-killed-god.blogspot.com/ Human Ape
    
    What are you, Garrett, a geologist? You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to waste my time with you. Just read The Greatest Show on Earth by Dawkins. If you're too lazy to do that, you should shut up about what you know nothing about.
http://OutlookExpress Ed

As evolution once claimed, man evolved from ape. If so, were there the same color apes as there are humans over the earth? And, once evolved why did those of a certain color settle in distinct parts of the world while other colors settled in other parts. And, if man did evolve from ape, what told ape to stop evolving as we now have enough humans. If evolution were true and with the advancement over the ages, an ape born in Africa would evolve and in short order be working as a politician in Washington in very short order. As all other things has progressed such as aviation, shouldn't evolution? We started with the Wright's at Kitty Hawk and now have planes flying faster than sound and have put a man on the moon. Shouldn't evolution progress as fast?

The fact is that neither can prove either. But a fact is clear; if one believes in evolution he does not believe in a Creator of this universe described in the Holy Bible.
Ed E.

This type of fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christianity does not belong in any kind of God-given-intelligence discussion. The complexity and wonder of God's creation increases with every new discovery or insight in science. Bible-thumping barbarians at the very basic level make fools of themselves and mock and deny God's power. The same loving and creating God who gave His only Son to die for our sins, is capable of doing things, and in such ways, that are beyond our understanding at any time.

The Bible was written in a historical time-frame where limitations of language and of understanding could not comprehend or convey the wonders that God can do.. As Christians, within the framework of a monotheistic belief, we take our direction from the words of Christ, the Son of God. That direction is of the course of the soul and the behavior we should have as children of God, as followers of Christ. The Bible is not a science textbook. God wrote the textbook, and we are still trying to understand it.

How could biblical Jews describe intelligent design? How could they describe things that not only they could not understand, but could not see or imagine?

In trying to defend your view of Christianity you deny the very God who sent His Son.

I think that Jim S. and rick express it very well.
Charles

I do believe that the Bible and evolution go hand in hand. Lets just say that my reason is that making the entire universe and Earth as well as the other planets in just 6 days is pure fantasy. However if you marry the two together you'll see the God has a sense of humor. The idea of 6 days is pure fantasy as the people of that time were uneducated and 99.9 percent couldn't read. Or have any knowledge of the universe as a whole. God loves to experiment. If you don't believe that go look in the mirror.
http://zionica.com Michael G.

There was a time I believed in evolution, but not now. It all depends on whether you are talking about "Micro" evolution, or "Macro" evolution. Macro went out the window and into the trash heap. (Macro: one species evolves into another species. That doesn't work.). Micro show a change in a species group. You can prove that with human beings. No two of us look 'exactly' alike. I taught astronomy at the college level, and had students come to me after the second or third class and say to me: "You're a Christian, aren't you?" I told them yes. I don't know what I said or did that gave them this question, because I never brought the subject of religion or Christianity up during class. That has remained a mystery to me. Perhaps someone else had a hand in this–I don't know. I'll let people draw their own conclusions about this.

Yes, I am a Christian (now studying to become Catholic) and I totally and completely reject Evolution…
http://darwin-killed-god.blogspot.com/ Human Ape

Hello Christians. I'm a normal person, also known as an atheist. I have been studying evolutionary biology for several years, so unlike most of you, I know what I'm talking about. Here's some scientific facts for you to consider.

1. Evolution (including macro evolution) is an established truth. Evolution is a basic scientific fact, and the many facts of evolutionary biology are the strongest facts of science.

2. People share an ancient ape ancestor with modern chimpanzee apes. People evolved from apes.

3. Chimpanzees evolved from ancient apes, and chimpanzees are still apes.

4. People evolved from the same ancient apes, and people are still apes.

5. The dead Jeebus was an ape.

6. There are five modern ape species including chimpanzee apes, bonobo apes, human apes, gorilla apes, and orangutan apes.

The scientific facts I just listed are the strongest facts of science, thanks to extremely powerful and massive evidence from molecular biology and genetics. You can deny these facts if you want, but the only thing you will accomplish is you will look stupid and uneducated.

The religious implications of evolution are obvious. Evolution completely kills Christianity and every other religion ever invented. Evolution leaves every god ever invented with absolutely nothing to do. Your Christian god and every other god is nothing more than a worthless fantasy.

You have a choice. You can grow up, educate yourselves, face facts, and join the 21st century. Or you can continue being Christians.

For more information, please visit my blog: darwin-killed-god dot blogspot dot com
http://darwin-killed-god.blogspot.com/ Human Ape

I'm sorry, just one more thing.

Biologists don't "believe" in evolution. Scientific facts are not "beliefs" because unlike religious ideas, scientific facts have evidence. Evolution has more evidence than any other fact, so nobody "believes" in it. Instead biologists "accept" the reality of evolution. Biologists "accept" the close evolutionary relationship between modern human apes and modern chimpanzee apes, because that relationship has tons of powerful evidence.
Delores Smith

No, I do not believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution, because I am an intelligent Christian. I also don't believe in Global Warming. I don't believe that Al Gore is innocent of his hotel experience, when he called himself, "Mr. Stone." Stay turned for more of what I do and do not believe.
Delores Smith
Charles Higley

Science, and evolution as an integral and very well supported part of science, describe the real world in naturalistic terms. Religion describes the spiritual side of man.

Before science, the religious leaders gave the people some feeling of security by making up stories which explained the way things came to be. As science developed and we began to explain things in real terms and could apply our new knowledge to make life better for us, we did displace or debunk the fantasies originally used to explain things. This does not diminish religion, it just makes us more powerful to control our own destiny and means that we have to realize what religion is for.

Religion is a human invention designed to deal with our knowledge of our own mortality. Man and the world came first, religion came second.

So much of modern medicine and even this computer is based on the science which supports evolution—to not have confidence in evolution would make one a hypocrite if he/she accesses modern medicine or computers.

Remember, we have faith in religion or God—faith is an irrational, unfounded belief in something. I have no faith in science or evolution—I have CONFIDENCE in science and evolution and can stake my life on it, if it is good, well tested science.
Purdin

wow human ape and charles, well a theory is just an opinion, based on a few facts but not enough to make it a law, no missing link has been found and if evolution was true there would be some kind of link alive today and not a chimpanzee, something a little more advanced. there is a big gap betwwen man and ape. even if you don't want to admit it. and charles you are betting your soul on your belief. and it is a belief. because it there were enough facts to make it a law then it would be a law not a theory.
- http://darwin-killed-god.blogspot.com/ Human Ape
  
  A scientific theory is just an opinion? You're wrong.
  
  Scientific theories can be promoted to laws? You're wrong again.
  
  THEORY: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.
  
  – National Academy of Sciences
  
  There's plenty of fossils of human ancestors (and close cousins of human ancestors) and these fossils show a gradual increase in brain size, which is exactly what evolutionary theory predicts. Look it up. Use google. Don't be lazy.
  
  The most complete fossil record are the fossils that describe the transition from land animals to whales. Look it up.
  
  Some kind of link alive today? You're wrong again. The fossil record shows that there were many human-like species sharing this planet at the same time. We are the only human ape species that didn't go extinct. Look it up.
  
  Chimpanzee apes have evolved just as much as human apes. Both of these ape species developed to be good enough to survive in their environments.
  
  Here an interesting fact that Christians don't know about: There are countless fossils of transitional species, despite what the liars for Jeebus say, but those fossils, while extremely important because they help scientists understand exactly how new species developed, are not necessary at all to call evolution a fact. Scientists don't need the fossils. Why? Because evidence from molecular biology and genetics is many thousands of times more powerful than fossils.
  
  For example, for several years molecular biologists have been comparing DNA sequences of modern human apes and modern chimpanzee apes. They have found countless pieces of evidence that show beyond any doubt that these two ape species share an ancestor. This evidence is extremely powerful. Look it up.
  
  Purdin, who knows absolutely nothing about evolutionary biology or any other branch of science, threatened us with his ridiculous childish "you are betting your soul on your belief."
  
  I already explained in a previous comment that scientific facts like evolution are not "beliefs". You're not paying attention Purdin.
  
  There's no evidence for a soul. I'm not surprised it has no evidence because it's a goofy idea for cowards who want to believe in a life after death.
  
  Take your torture threats elsewhere mister. You just make people laugh at you when you make idiotic cowardly threats, and you disgrace your religion.
  
  Another thing you can do, Purdin, is stop being lazy and study science. With the internet and google it's not hard to do. How many times have you googled "evidence evolution"? Never once probably. Why don't you get to work, study evolution for several years like I have, and then get back to us.
- Joe Agnost
  
  Like HumanApe aptly – although longwindedly – states in his reply: a ~scientific~ theory is not a guess or speculation.
  
  "Theory" is the highest of highs in science. A theory starts out as an idea. This idea will either make sense, make predictions and be falsifiable or it won't. If it does pass this test it becomes an "hypothesis". Once the hypothesis is sufficiently tested (passing ~every_single~ test) and accepted by the scientific community it will graduate to the strongest position in science – it becomes a theory.
  
  Some notable ~just_a_theory~ theories in science:
  
  1. The theory of gravity. (yup – "just" a theory)
  
  2. Germ theory.
  
  3. Quantum theory.
  
  4. The theory of evolution.
  
  and there are many many more.
  
  To anybody who claims that evolution is "just a theory" I would ask: what about gravitational theory. ~That's~ just a theory too – do you want to test it by jumping off a bridge? No? I didn't think so…
Purdin

lol just because man can't explain something or prove it, or fit in a math formuls doesn't mean it can't exist. too bad people are so conceited that they can't believe in somethinig bigger then them, or superior
- Joe Agnost
  
  So how about it Purdin? Do you want to take me up on my offer to test the "just a theory" theory of gravity??
  
  It's "just a theory" after all right?
- Lynda Hardin-Poston,
  
  Purdin:
  
  I have a PhD in Religious Studies. I am a Christian. But I am also a realist. I do not believe using the "Divine Inspiration" and, as you and many like you like to put people like me down with, if we don't believe like you, then we can't be Christian. I don't believe that. I believe the Holy Bible is a historical record and moral compass. It has many, many incarnations over the years. In MY lifetime it has been rewritten at least 5 times and each is a little different from the other. Think of how many times it has been translated from the original. Think of the "poetic license" that some of those who translated it must have taken. King James discarded numerous books when he assembled the King James version of the Bible. There is NO way that the original texts have been preserved as they were written. Therefore, the "Divine Inspiration" excuse is not valid.
  
  Now that said; let's try to address basic "evolution." Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon DID exist. They are, genetically, in our genus and, therefore, they were men. Do WE look like either of them? Maybe YOU do, but I know I don't. They had more hair on their bodies, the did not walk completely upright, they had bigger teeth, their brains were smaller, their arms were longer, their musculature and muscle mass was much greater, etc. Over time, these characteristics changed to fit his environment. just as peoples around the world look different due to their environment. Even today, we do not all have the same frame, skin color, brain size, etc. This is called "EVOLUTION." The Darwinian theory that we came from apes is not provable, but evolution, in and of itself, IS provable. Outside of man it is definitely provable. Wooly Mammoth became an elephant, saber toothed tiger became a Bengal, the legs of the whale are still a part of their skeleton from when they once walked the earth, and there are many, many more obvious evolutions in animals and even plants. You can bury your head in the sand and claim those of us who are smart enough to believe what we can see and touch don't believe in "something bigger than us," when that is just not true. I believe in an all powerful and all knowing God. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I also believe that God gave us a mind and curiosity and he intended we use it, not ignore what is right in front of us. He would not have given us the capacity to understand if he didn't want us to understand. My God WANTS me to know about ALL he created, not stay stagnated in a centuries old, many times altered, book. The Holy Bible is a guide for the life that God wants us to live, its history is not etched in granite as the ONLY history that exists. We have to fill in the blanks.
Lynda Hardin-Poston,

Evolution is a FACT. As a Christian, I believe that until actual historical WRITTEN record, which does not include the creation story, is a flight of fantasy. NO ONE WAS THERE to record what happened. It was written centuries, probably millions of years. after the beginning of time for the earth. Yeah, yeah, I know about "Divine Inspiration." Sorry, that is a weak argument.

There is a materially provable record of dinosaurs, Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, which are part of the EVOLUTION of the Earth. As far as man coming from monkeys; although we are only a few genes from them, I think we are of the same life, domain, kingdom, phyl8um, class, order, and family. I believe we are NOT of the same Genus or Species. If you know anything about science, ALL living things begin with LIFE and it goes down from there. Using a bit of logic, this scientific hierarchal tree,, evolution is proven, not to mention skeletal remains that can not be disregarded.

As someone above mentioned; God's time is infinite and Einstein proved that time is also relevant. Therefore, scientific history and Biblical history, in reality, do not contradict each other except in closed minds.
- John D. Griffin
  
  There is a gap between Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2(KJV). Why do think God told Adam and Eve to REplenish the earth. The earth was inhabited before. See my response to you under Joe A's comment.
John D. Griffin

Sinners are even now threatened with God's wrath, yea, they are by nature "children of wrath." It is true that God's wrath now slumbereth for a while, because this is the day of salvation. It is true that the time for the full and final and open manifestation of it has not yet arrived. It is true that sinners often defy God now with apparent impugnity, and because of this the wicked spread themselves like green bay trees. "Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of Thy ways. What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him, and what profit should we have if we pray unto Him?" (Job. 21:14, 15). Let all such heed the Divine warning, "Because there is wrath, BEWARE lest He take thee away with His stroke." Sinner, be not deceived, God is not mocked. "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter. Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. Is not this laid up in store with Me, and sealed up among My treasures? To Me belongeth vengeance and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste" (Deut. 32:29, 31-35). The sinner is treading a path more slippery than ice, and unless he forsake it, in due time his foot shall slide. The bow of God's wrath is already bent: the arrow of His vengeance is even now fitted to the string, and nothing but His infinite forebearance stays its release. My reader, the only reason why you have not already been cast into Hell fire is because it has been the good pleasure of the Most High to stay your doom. Flee then from the wrath to come while there is yet time.

"And thinketh thou this, O man that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom. 2:3). Did Adam escape the judgment of God? Did Cain, did Pharaoh, did Achan, did Haman? The only reason God has not "taken thee away with His stroke" before this is because He endures with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
- Joe Agnost
  
  Goodness… what does that rant have to do with the Theory of Evolution? In short: what the F@#$ are you even talking about?
  - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
    
    Joe, John is, obviously, a Bible thumping fundamentalist. There is NO reasoning with them. I am a Christian interdenominational minister with a PhD in Religious Studies and I can assure anyone that you can interpret the Holy Bible any way you wish. The texts speak to each person individually. What they impart to you is between you and your God. So I ignore people who rant and quote scripture to substantiate their rants. That only puts people off, it doesn't draw them to the Lord. I allow people to find the message on their own; with proper guidance and aid in understanding the text, most people who are in search of God's redemption and love, are able to find the message that is necessary for their peace. Trying to force it on them with fear tactics like, "You will go to HE** if you don't believe as I tell you to believe because I am God's messenger" and quote, supposedly, substantiating scripture, is not the true path to salvation. Fear is not the answer; LOVE, UNDERSTANDING, and LOGIC are the real ways to receive God's message. I doubt John employs any of those methods. Personally, I doubt he knows the definition of the words.
    - John D. Griffin
      
      You'll see how far your PhD gets you one day. See if you can interpret these in many ways: 1. Tim.6:20KJVO Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:, 1.Cor.2:14KJV
      
      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.(nothing about PhD discerned) Also, 1.Cor.1:21KJV…"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."(not foolish PhD's) This also: 2Tim.4:1-3 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
      
      2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves TEACHERS(that's you), having itching ears; It's obvious Linda, you have educated yourself out of good sense. I want to hear your rediculous expaination for those scriptures. Don't avoid any of it. Address it just like it's written.
  - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
    
    I forgot to mention that John's rant has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the Theory of Evolution. He was looking for a platform and thought this might be a place. It takes all kinds of nuts to make a world.
    - Joe Agnost
      
      His (John D Griffin) whole comment reads like incoherant babble… such is the product of a religiously fundamental mind I guess.
      
      Keep tooting that science horn Lynda! :)
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Yeah, keep tooting that Science horn, and see where it gets you. 1 Timothy 6:19-21 (King James Version)
        
        Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
        
        20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of SCIENCE falsely so called: 21" Which some professing have ERRED concerning the FAITH." In Mark 9:43-48(KJV) Jesus said,
        
        And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. …..Following Linda is not too smart!!
      - Joe Agnost
        
        Keep quoting those bible verses JohnDG! Just keep showing us that you're a one-trick pony, able to blindly quote an ancient book but sadly unable to think for yourself.
        
        Do you have anything original to say JohnDG? Anything at all from your own mind?
  - John D. Griffin
    
    Simply this Joe, Luke 24:25 (KJV)Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken… Either a man or woman believes the Bible, or they do not. There is no mixture at all, with creation and evolution. The Lord described science this way: (1.Tim.6:20KJV) O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: The Lord said that creation came about in Six Days(Six 24 hr. periods). The Genesis Account: And the evening and the morning were the 1st day, And the evening and the morning were the 2nd day. And the evening and the morning were the 3rd day, and so on….. Either the word of God is believed by faith, or it's not. I had rebelled against the Lord for many years. The Lord opened my eyes to the Truth, and I turned to Him. My comment above was speaking of the wrath of the Lord, being revealed against those that reject God's word. As far as evolution, it is "science falsely so called". See Evolution vs. The Bible @ http://www.kjv1611.org
  - John D. Griffin
    
    My comment above has everything to do with evolution. Those who believe in evolution, blatently call God a liar. It takes a very bold nut(putting it mildly), to rob God of His Glory as the Creator. The scripture that was written above describes the wrath and the judgement of God on mockers and scoffers. Listen to what God has to say about humanity stealing His Glory: Rom.1:20-32(KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Linda was not even aware that God had written about her in several places in His Bible.
    - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
      
      Uh, excuse me, John, but GOD didn't write the Bible, MEN did. Also, there was NO ONE THERE when the universe came into being to chronicle the event. It was all written millions of years after it happened. It took millions of years for the earth to cool adequately enough for plants to grow to provide food to the animals and humans who came after the earth was created. Look at it this way; the scientific record can be touched, seen, smelled, and proven. The Bible….well, we know that there was no written word until several thousand years after man appeared on the Earth. Until then, there was no written record of anything. The first part of the Bible was written for the Jews as a history of the Jews as well as to establish Jewish laws. The New Testament was written around 2,000 years ago and it, too, was actually written over 50 years after Jesus' death.
      
      As far as I am concerned, I am not denying that God crated the earth; I just don't believe it was done in 7 modern "days." I believe it was over millions of years as scientific evidence has proven. I believe the dinosaurs were here long before man. I also do not believe that Adam and Eve were the ONLY people. Remember, there was no one there to record what was happening. It was a flight of fancy by holy men of the time to explain the beginning.
      
      As for your condemnation of me, I have my own relationship with God. When I lay my head on my pillow at night, I answer ONLY to God and myself, no one else really matters and that includes YOU. He and I have a wonderful relationship and He knows my heart. Bible thumping and quoting scripture remind me of Jim Jones and David Koresh, both nuts that condemned anyone who didn't believe the way he insisted they should. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.
      
      Incidentally, GOD didn't write ANYTHING except the 10 Commandments. I do not question or doubt them. Therefore, I am not calling God a liar. I am suspect of the voracity of those MEN who wrote and/or translated the Holy Bible. If you are going to refer to me, kindly spell my name correctly; it is LYNDA, moron.
      - John D. Griffin
        
        I'm not Jim Jones or David Koresh. That's just a smoke cloud you blow, to put false impressions into the readers minds. When in fact, mind control is actually what you're into, not me. You do everything you can to tear down the readers faith in the Bible. You spent 1000's of dollars to attain that PhD, and you want to push your worldly, humanistic ideas into the minds of the readers. You can't stand the idea that a saved Bible believer, would give instruction to anyone. According to you, everyone that gives instruction has to disprove God 1st. You expect the readers to follow your PhD, so therefore you have to trash the Bible in doing so. My Bible education came from the Holy Spirit, and Spirit filled instructors.Not from humanistic, lying professors with PhD's. Your foolish pride has you making a name for yourself, and continually calling God a Liar, in your attempt. The bible has every answer that you can't seem to come up with. The earth WAS inhabited before this present creation, the Bible teaches that. You just threw God out , after the 1st couple of verses in Genesis, & decided to follow your professors instead. Anyone with good sense also knows that there was no man present at the very beginning of creation. Moses was given that scripture by God, many years after the fact. Either people believe God, or they trust nuts like you that don't. The Bible has never failed on one prophecy. It's been 100% right, and 100% on target with it's past prophecies. And, it will be 100% right, and 100% on target with the future prophecies. Unlike you, and your nutty professors. You are too busy trying to disprove God, through worldly knowledge, that you can't see or understand the scripture. The next time I get a severe stomach pain, I'll show you what you can do with that PhD!! 1Cor.2:14KJV John 6:63KJV
    - Joe Agnost
      
      Ugh! What is it with Christian fundamentalists that they can't come up with ~any~ original thoughts! Bible verses and more bible verses… don't you have a mind of your own John?
      - John D. Griffin
        
        You can't even understand the ignorance of your own thoughts. Every thought that you have expressed in your above comments, came from someone else"s higher learning. You took their thoughts and their ideas, and believed them. Can you and Lynda not come up with material that did not come from someone else. What great scientific discoveries have you and Lynda been world renowned for?? None, Right? You stole someone else's material. Where is your individuality?? Science is always at least 500 years behind the Bible. When science was wondering if the world was round or not, the Book of Isaiah recorded "the circle of the earth". The time of the book of Isaiah was approx. 800 years before the 1st coming of Jesus. Before microscopes were invented, the Bible said in Heb.11:3,"things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."(invisible things: cells, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons). The Bible had declared that many years before science had a microscope. There are many others also. My bible has multitudes of prophecies that has never failed. They came to pass totally on target, and 100% correct. Tell me of a worldly science book that's more accurate??
      - Joe Agnost
        
        @JohnDG
        
        LOL! You're, apparently, not even bright enough to know the difference between a "circle" and an orb or globe… So your great (%100 accurate) science book (the bible) thinks the earth is a circle – and you think circle means 'globe'.
        
        Thanks for showing us what a rube you are… that's what you get when you ignore science in favour of bible knowledge. What a waste…
      - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
        
        John, my PhD is in RELIGIOUS STUDIES. Do you know what that means? That means I have studied most of the world's religions. I am a CHRISTIAN. My Bible is the Holy Bible. In studying all the religions, the ONE constant is a believe in a higher power. That power has many names, but that power has almost identical characteristics.
        
        Now, the "creation" of the earth is different in many, close to the Holy Bible in others, but ALL were written by MEN. That is where you miss the boat. You say I am a "nut" because I choose to see the Bible as a history book of the Jewish people and the life and ministry of Christ, not an etched in granite absolute. You are fool if you believe everything you read, even the Holy Bible as translated a minimum of 20 times from the original manuscripts.
        
        I will say that I put more faith in the Dead Sea Scrolls because they ARE original manuscripts and are only being translated once and that would offer a clearer picture of intent than one that has, in my lifetime, been translated about 5 times. The newer translations are translated from the King James Version, which WAS, indeed, King James' version. The history of the King James Version gives credence to my skepticism regarding translations. King James threw out many of the books of the Bible that he felt were "unnecessary"
        
        or "detrimental to the faith." If it, in any way, contradicted his idea of Christianity, he just discarded it. Many book of the bible were lost to King James' editing. As a result, millions of people were taught through King James' eyes, not the eyes of the prophets or any of the authors of the books King James discarded.
        
        Personally, I have no more faith in King James ability to edit than I do the Pope's. Both are just men with power who had, and the Pope still has, to alter the picture to their own reality rather than truth.
        
        I know I am talking over your head because you have not studied anything except the Holy Bible as it stands today and that makes you one of the blind followers who are convinced that the Holy Bible is the end all and be all for mankind. In reality, it can be a doubled edged sword. Can it bring you salvation? ABSOLUTELY. Can it cause you to discard scientific proof that can, in reality, give MORE truth to creation that the Bible offers, thus leading to your ignorance? You bet it can. Not believing that the earth was created in 7 of our current earth days does not mean a disbelief in the entire Bible and it's message. It just means that I have a brain and a mind, that God gave me, to reason.
        
        I know more about religions of all kinds than your narrow little mind will ever know. So I know this is like talking to a paper sack filled with hot air. But I have a peace with God that transcends the Holy Bible and those who can not look beyond it to the majesty of what God has given to us through the study of science. The REAL reality is that if you read and understand the true meaning of the Bible, you will see that science and the Bible ARE NOT contradictory. You just have to realize that everything in the Bible, including the advanced ages of the characters in it, are in GOD'S TIME, not ours. When you grasp that concept, you are on the way to opening up the vistas of the beauty that the Bible can impart to you. As long as you hang on to the narrow versions of the translators, you are depriving yourself of the true voice of God that can be seen all around you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Lynda, the further you go the more scrambled it gets with you. I said in my last reply to you, that the KJ Bible had never failed on one prophecy that it had predicted. It's been 100% right, and on target 100% of the time. You, or any other book you have, does not have that kind of track record!! You try to combat that with lying about King James?? Anyone could surely trust that Bible, over YOU being a FINAL authority. With you, they get the same scrambled mess that I've been getting. Don't dodge what I said by lying about the translation of the KJ Bible. King James did not translate the Bible. He had 44 saved scholars that took the Textus Receptus(Received Text), and translated it from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, to our English KJ Bible. Those translators threw out the corrupt Siniaticus and Vaticanus manuscripts because they were corrupt Egyptian manuscripts! If you spent any time in the Bible, you'd find that nothing God honoring, ever came from Egypt. Those were the corrupt manuscripts used in producing the corrupt NIV. Also, the earth was not part of the six(6) day creation account. There is a gap in time between Gen.1:1, and 1:2. You would know that if you spent more time in the bible. There was no seven (7) day account of creation as you have said over and over. Take a close look, and you'll see that the 7th day had nothing to do with creation. But, what does it matter, you make it up as you go anyway. God gave this world a book in English, for English for speaking people, until the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ!! The name of that book is the King James Bible. Unlike you, it has never failed, nor never will fail, on one prophecy. God is the Almighty, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. But, God would be a sorry, miserable, wretch, if he could not produce a book in English, for English speaking people to know and understand Him. That's why He did, and it discounts people like you wanting to be THE FINAL AUTHORITY. Either, that book is the final authority, or scrambled people with their own ideas, are the Final Authority. The part that makes you mad, is that it abases people like you, and it cuts you out of a lot of $$$$. I'm not unlearned, or ignorant. My teacher can read 700 words per minute, he read Harvard's five(5) foot shelf by the time he was 21. By the time he was 30, he had read over 6500 books. Currently, he has read over 28,000 books, he is a Greek and a Hebrew scholar also, and has every degree you can think of. He's read the KJ Bible through around 200 times. You can ask him any question, on any subject, and within 5 seconds, he will give you 3 scripture references. He will tell anyone, that there is no other book on the planet, like the KJ Bible. On his website, you can see videos of people like yourself, that tried to dispute the authority of the KJ Bible. By the time he's done, they look like 3 year olds with no education. He's got video of University professors who wanted to dispute the Bible vs. Evolution, and likewise, he rips them to shreds with the Monarch of all Books! He does that to train his students on the final authority of the KJ Bible. Would you like to be the next one on a video? The only thing that's required, is a PhD. All of your followers could come along for the fun?? Bottom line, the bible says that "Holy men of Old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost", and that the word of God, was given by inspiration of God. Either people trust the Holy God by faith, or they trust an UNHOLY PhD by a long shot?? Duh Huh?? You are the final authority?? I hope all of the readers are laughing as hard as I am!! Rom.10:17 So then FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of GOD(not Lynda). John 14:6 JESUS saith unto him, I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE: NO MAN cometh unto the FATHER, but by ME. Yes Lynda, that's narrow, but that's God's only way! If you are teaching any other way, you are a LIAR! John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Rom 3:4,"yea, let GOD be TRUE, but every MAN a LIAR;"(there's Lynda) O.K. Lynda, show me where my Bible has ever failed on one prophecy. I'm ready, and waiting……
    - Joe Agnost
      
      johnDG wrote: "Those who believe in evolution, blatently call God a liar."
      
      As an atheist I don't believe god's a liar… you know, since I don't believe god exists and all. And as Lynda pointed out – the ToE says ~nothing~ about god.
      
      If you don't like a scientific theory you do have options you know. Instead of endlessly quoting scripture you could show the evidence which you think FALSIFIES the theory. That's how science works. Quoting scripture will get you nowhere…
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Joe, you've totally avoided my question. I said that every bit of knowledge you have, you've stolen from someone else. Where is your individuality? What are your patented scientific break throughs? Please don't avoid this question. We all want to hear how your knowledge in life, came only from yourself and not from others…..we're waiting….
      - Joe Agnost
        
        Ok mister 'the earth is a circle' – I'll play your little game.
        
        I have several patents in the computer science field – none of which have made me rich unfortunately. I'm involved with data networks, and while I might not ponder the harder scientific questions I certainly do my fair share of innovative work.
        
        None of that matters though. Understanding science doesn't mean memorizing things, it means ~understanding~ things. It doesn't mean ~blindly~ following the words of other scientists – it means ~understanding~ their words, ~questioning~ their words and ultimately coming up with one's own conclusions.
        
        I find it the pinnacle of irony that a bible thumping bible literalist is claiming that accepting science is some sort of brainwashing. Like the idea that actually listening to, and accepting, an experts opinion is somehow invalid. You desperately need a mirror John – if the bible allows it of course.
        
        When you get sick do you go to a doctor? Are you aware that they, how'd you put it again…. ah yes, they "stole" their ideas from someone else?? Gasp?!
        
        How's that circular earth going for you?! ~That~ was funny… a circle…
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Joe, you started off with me, accusing me of being a Bible thumper pretty much. Attempting to make me out to be an uninformed, uneducated person. Those ideas are totally wrong. My stand is that yes, science has made discoveries that I don't deny at all. However, my only stand against science comes when science goes against the scripture. I use scientific information everyday. I'm state licensed in HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, and as General Contractor also. So, I'm by far no dummy myself. In my fields, science is used on a daily basis. The only arguments that you and I would have, would be where science crosses the Bible. The bible does not have to be trashed to believe that this earth was inhabited before this present creation. The bible teaches that. God reveals that to believers who read and study past the 1st few verses of Genesis. Dinosaurs and other inhabitants were definitely factual. But, mankind does not have to call God a liar, and resort to a "theory"of evolution. That's my disagreement. Also, the law of God was written in your heart, as well as all other humans(Rom.2:14-16KJV). No one had to tell you when you were little, that it was wrong to lie, cheat, and steal etc… You, along with every other human, know that to be a fact. That's where the nervousness came from, when you told your mom that 1st big Lie. Also, after that, your God given conscience bothered you. Don't deny it. If you lie about it, all the readers of this comment will know that you're lying. Those same things apply to them also. No one had to tell you that sin was wrong. You knew it. Later in life, you've just tried to educate yourself out of the knowledge of God. You feel that if you can accomplish that, that there won't be a judgment day with the Lord, but there will. You atheist are the only rascals that will fight so hard against a God that you claim no belief in. Why the fight Joe? The knowledge and belief is there. Your daily battle, is to keep convincing yourself that you don't believe. Psalm 14:1KJV The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
      - Joe Agnost
        
        Your mistake is thinking that 'to accept science – or the ToE – is to "trash the bible"'
        
        That's all in your head John…
        
        John wrote: "Why the fight Joe?"
        
        The only fight I'm interested in is fighting FOR science. I have no fight with your bible, or your god. I really don't care… until you justify your ignorance with bible quotes. That is where the problem lies.
        
        God/the_bible is a non-issue with me. It's a great big "meh!".
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Then, you and I have no further reason to write back and forth. To me, science is great in it's place. But, nothing will take the place of my Bible. We can agree to disagree. Take care
      - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
        
        Joe,
        
        I realize you are an Agnostic, which is fine with me. I am a firm believer that people must travel their life's journey in their own way. I look at my Christian faith this way:
        
        I am be deluded in believing that God exists and that Jesus died for my sins, that is a distinct possibility. However, I see religion and a belief in a higher power as the way man deals with his mortality. The simple truth is that NO ONE is going to escape death. No matter how much money you have, how much power you have, or how much faith you have, you WILL die. It gives me peace to believe that I will go to a better place to be with God, see my deceased grandparents and other ancestors, and live in comfort through eternity. That belief makes it easier to cope with the prospect of death. If I am wrong, does it really matter? When I am dead, it will be moot point and I will have left this world a happier person than if I didn't believe. If you can be happy not believing, that's okay too. But I think that I have the win-win situation.
        
        I don't believe in trying to force any religion down anyone's throat. Force feeding causes regurgitation. A person has to "feel" the Lord move in his life. If he doesn't no amount of preaching and scripture reading is going to force them to believe. Everyone's life journey is their own and they along can travel it. How they travel it, how they interact with people while on that journey and the believe system to which they aspire, all make up the pages of the book of their life. I like to think my book of life will be worth the read and all of that book will show the influence of my Christian belief system. Although I do not adhere to Christian fundamentalism, I AM, and always will be, a Christian. It is not for any other HUMAN BEING to judge me based on his values or his interpretation of what the Bible tells him. It is up to ME and MY God what it tells ME. My God understands me, my beliefs and what I stand for so, no mortal man is going to shake me with name calling or depraved indifference to my right as a Christian to interpret my Bible MY way. A TRUE Christian would know that Jesus said that if we believe, we will be saved and he will save us a place in Heaven. It doesn't say that we have to believe in the creation story or anything else. For that reason, I choose ONLY to counsel those who come to me because when they do come to me, I know they are ready to receive the Word of God into their hearts. I do not, and never will, demean or chastise anyone for their lack of faith. The lack of faith does not indicate a bad person, only one that chooses NOT to believe. That is their choice and I respect an individual's right to that choice.
      - Joe Agnost
        
        Cheers Lynda…
        
        Lynda wrote (about her beliefs): "If I am wrong, does it really matter?"
        
        I'd so 'no'… it doesn't really matter. Since you don't allow your beliefs to override reality or demean science of course. Creationists are a whole other ball of wax!
        
        Lynda wrote: "I think that I have the win-win situation."
        
        It's not so clear cut IMO. You're assuming the question is whether it's ~your~ god, or ~no~ god. But what if the Hindus are correct? The Muslims?
        
        With the mounds of gods to choose from I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. If the Hindus are correct then we're in the same boat (you and I) since neither of us believe in the Hindu gods. In that case your situation is not "win-win".
        
        Lynda wrote: "The lack of faith does not indicate a bad person, only one that chooses NOT to believe."
        
        While I applaud your tolerance, I still have to correct you here. I don't "choose" not to believe… choice doesn't factor into it. I can't just decide to believe in something I find utterly unbelievable. The fact that I don't believe in god isn't a choice I've made – it's just the result of thinking about it.
        
        (btw – despite my JoeAgnost handle, I can assure you that I'm an atheist). :)
      - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
        
        Joe,
        
        When I indicate that I have a "win-win" situation, I am ONLY referring to me. I only give information based on my point of view. I do not expect anyone else to adhere to my belief system any more than I will adhere to theirs. I only meant that for ME, believing makes dealing with my mortality easier to bear. If I become a cow or any other animal as believed by the Hindu's, I will not be me any longer, I will be that entity. Animals are unable to believe or not believe, so my fate would be sealed anyway. Only humans can make a choice to believe in a God or not.
        
        I concede that I used the wrong terminology when I indicate that you "chose" not to believe. Again, from my own prospective only, it would seem that if you know about God's, you are, in some abstract way, have to, at some time in your life, make a decision as to whether you believe or don't. As an analogy: Obama tells you that the health care bill is not going to raise the deficit. You make a choice whether you believe it or not. Whether you believe it or not isn't going to make any difference, you are stuck with it regardless, so your believing him or not isn't relevant. Or another analogy: someone sets a box at your feet and tells you that it has a poisonous snake in it; are you going to believe him and leave the box alone? All I am saying is that when it is placed in front of you, for whatever reason, your mind must make a decision one way or the other as to whether you choose to believe what you are being told.
        
        Would you believe that both my husband and one of my sons are atheists? My husband is a geophysicist and unless he can see it, smell it, hear it or taste it, he doesn't believe it. He has to have PROOF before he believes. He has tried to pin me down many, many times about WHY I believe in a God that can not be proven. I no longer allow him to bate me into those conversations because they are counterproductive. If he chooses not to believe, then that is his choice. My son tries to bate me into conversations, too, but I usually don't spar with him, either. I don't think sparring and arguing accomplish anything. Only when someone shows a true interest do I venture into that realm. Unless someone is willing to even consider the possibilities, there is no reason to go thorough the exercise.
        
        You say I am tolerant; that isn't really true. I believe that one of the scourges of our time is Islam. It is the most violent, intolerant religions that has ever existed. The mandate that all people who do not worship as they do MUST die is barbaric. I have studied the Quran extensively and it is a sickening piece of work. No matter what you hear about Islam being a religions of 'Peace," don't believe it. It is violent, deceptive, barbaric, intolerant and insidious. Sharia Law is worse than barbaric, it is brutal, cruel, uncivilized. The way it treats women is unconscionable. As far as I am concerned, it is NOT a religion, it is a doctrine of horror that needs to be eradicated. How that can be done, I don't know, I only know that it is spreading like the plaque and it is leaving death and destruction in its wake.
        
        .
liz

Some people, even scientific people, think the God of the Universe, could not recreate the earth in six days.

Well, I cannot even contemplate it taking the God of the Universe 1,000 years or even millions of years to create Light.

I cannot conceive it taking all that much time for God to create all the other events in the "six day" week.

The all powerful God of the Universe lives outside of our dimensions, and He can do anything He wants in whatever time-frame He wants. Personally, I even think six days is a stretch.
- Lynda Hardin-Poston,
  
  liz,
  
  Do you realize that it took millions of years to cool after it was first created? Why couldn't that heat been created by the way God created the earth? If you choose to believe the creation story, in Genesis 1:1-2 the Bible says, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth and the earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the earth."
  
  In 1:3 "Then God said, "Let there be light", and there was light." This, obviously, was the sun. Does it SAY he created the sun?
  
  NO, it just says there was "light." Then it says in 1:4 "…and God divided the light from the darkness." The reality is that the darkness is divided from the light by the rotation of the Earth. Does it SAY that? NO. Do you deny that the darkness and light are due to the rotation of the earth?
  
  Then in 1:9 "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the cry land appear." Considering that no concrete explanation as to what was being referred to as "water" in this passage, why couldn't the "water" have been molten lava which, through scientific study, is proven to have been what the earth was for MILLIONS of years. These are irrefutable facts no matter how much you deny them.
  
  1:20-21 is where the dinosaurs come in. "Then God said, 'Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. (21) So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves with which the waters abound, according to their kind, …" The dinosaurs lived millions of years on the Earth and were extinct when man showed up only about 200,000 years ago. The Earth itself is 14 Billion (that BILLION with a "B") years old. We can prove all of this though the fossel record. These are things you can see and touch, things that exist, not just words on a page written billions of years after they occurred where no one was present to chronicle it. WHO WROTE THE CREATION STORY???? It WAS NOT GOD!! It was a MAN!!!
  
  If you believe everything you read in the Bible, how about this: in Genesis 6:3 it says," And the Lord said, 'My Spirit shall not 'strive' with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." This, basically, says that men should live to be 120 years old. Do you know anyone who has lived to be 120? In written history, has ANYONE lived to be 120 years old? Then we see the Biblical characters who lived to be 300, 400, 500, 700, years. Uh, didn't God say they would live to be 120? How do you explain that?
  
  Ignoring the parts you can not explain and ignoring the inconsistencies is just plain stupid. The reason there is SO much inconsistency and confusion, especially in Genesis (at least the first 5 chapters), is that it IS NOT FACTUAL!! NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that God many any other people besides Adam and Eve. So where did Cain get his wife? Hmmm, another missing element. Answer: there were two creation stories., Genesis I and Genesis II.
  
  Today, we know that Genesis I and II are simply two separate Creation stories. Genesis II derives from a Sumerian story, while Genesis I is a later creation of the Hebrew Priesthood (created by the Deuteronomic School around 700 BCE). However, to a people who were quite determined to take the Scriptures as ultimate Truth, such a contradiction was not welcome at all. It demanded an explanation that reconciled both stories. This brought out the rather sticky subject of Lilith, Adams first wife who was, in reality, a higher level "animal" that was among those sent to "help" Adam in the garden of Eden.
  
  Lilith, it seems, wanted equality with Adam and he refused, so she left the Garden of Eden, mated with the demons and became the mother of all demons, who still resides in a cave somewhere near the Red Sea.
  
  Now, my point here is that there are two versions of Genesis. How do you choose which one to believe? Who made the decision to incorporate the current Genesis into the Bible? How do we know it is the correct one? Does it really matter?
  
  You see, there is no REAL way to know, so I choose to see both versions as stories, made up to give a preface to to the Bible. As of today, there are 15 English translations of the Holy Bible available (not including Jewish and Catholic Bibles). Which one is the TRUE Holy Bible?
  
  I have studied religion for many, many years. My PhD is in Religious Studies, I have a unique prospective on religions of all kinds. I, personally, believe the PUREST and most fundamental religion is Messianic Judaism. It has a long, rich history and exemplifies the struggle of man to serve God. Messianics (if you are not familiar) are Christian Jews. They adhere to the old Jewish laws yet the believe Jesus is the Messiah. The best of both worlds, in my estimation.
John D. Griffin

Rom. 1(KJV) 20For the invisible things of him from the CREATION of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT excuse:

21Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him NOT as God, neither were thankful; but became VAIN in their imaginations, and their FOOLISH heart was DARKENED.

22Professing themselves to be WISE, they became FOOLS,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible MAN, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to UNCLEANNESS through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who CHANGED the TRUTH of GOD into a LIE, and worshipped and served the CREATURE more than the CREATOR, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto VILE affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is AGAINST nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their LUST one toward another; MEN with MEN working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their KNOWLEDGE, God gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, DECEIT, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, HATERS of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without UNDERSTANDING, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY of DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
- Joe Agnost
  
  How original of you John!! You have a talent!
  - John D. Griffin
    
    Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
John D. Griffin

To all of mankind, Believe vain, sinful, men if you choose. We all do have that freedom of choice. However, there is only one God, that we will all give an account to in the End. The End is coming for all of us, so there is no need for argument. That time will come, and the truth will be manifest. All disputes will be settled once and for all. While you're still living though, I would just like to give you some information to ponder from a book that has never failed on one prophecy. Eph.4:4-6(kJV) 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, John 3:3, 7 "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". 7.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Fellow Patriots, again, you can either listen to sinful men, or believe the word of God that has never failed on one prophecy. But, here's the outcome, if you choose to believe men rather than the book that's never failed: Rev.20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Joe Agnost

And for a change of pace, here's our resident phsychopath (John DG) giving a few bible verses…

You're like a skipping record John! Come on! Contribute SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to this discussion… your bible verses are getting REALLY old.
- John D. Griffin
  
  The Bible says, "from the dust thou art, and to the dust thou shalt return" it also says, "no man hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit in the day of death" in another place, it say's," for the wages of sin is death" Joe, everytime I pass a GRAVE YARD, I see the TRUTH of the BIBLE, and the SHEAR, UTTER, FAILURE of SCIENCE…. When your Science can over come DEATH, please come and see me. At that time, I'll EAT every King James BIBLE on the PLANET. I PROMISE… And this will be another promise to you also, your FUNERAL is coming one day also, and SCIENCE will PISS on you! You'll just be another FOOL, in the SCIENCE LOG….. 1.Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and OPPOSITIONS of SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED: Science is DUNG……
  - Joe Agnost
    
    John wrote: "everytime I pass a GRAVE YARD, I see the TRUTH of the BIBLE, and the SHEAR, UTTER, FAILURE of SCIENCE"
    
    Thank you for taking a minute to tear yourself away from your bible to write that gem!! That is some fine comedy John…
    
    Tell me, how are people's graves an indication that science has failed?
    
    John wrote: "When your Science can over come DEATH, please come and see me."
    
    Oh – so ~that~ is what you were getting at. Science won't "over come(sic) death" – because death is an inevidable part of life. For everyone and everything.
    
    Do you have any evidence that religion has overcome death?
    
    John wrote: "SCIENCE will PISS on you!"
    
    I'm not sure how "science" will manage that! You are aware that science is a discipline aren't you? It's not some person or committee, it's simply the best method we have for figuring out the real world. That's the key – which excludes you – "real world". Join it when you're ready.
    - John D. Griffin
      
      The Bible is non sense according to you?? From the first man's sin in the Garden of Eden, God promised death for sin. For six thousand years God's word on that has held true, that in this life, death is a certainty, and mortal life is temperal. But, you say the Bible is non sense. And that Science is so advanced that it makes belief in the Bible stupid(according to you). I'm saying that science is nothing, compared to the Bible(according to me). God has been holding true to "death because of sin" for six thousand years. Science scoffs @ the Bible, and is all of the time, trying to disprove it. What I'm saying is that when science overcomes God's promise of death because of sin, that I'll forsake the Bible and go with Science. Don't deny it, anyone knows that science endeavors to defeat death. No matter how far advanced science gets with medicine, and medical technology, science never will pass the Bible(they've had 6 thousand years to defeat death). As far as " science pissing on you", meaning that while your body is in a grave, evaporation and condensation will still be occurring. The only thing you'll get from science, is their discovery of what rain is??(moisture in evaporation attaching to dust particles, then forming clouds in the atmosphere, the clouds becoming totally saturated, forming water droplets that fall to the earth). That Joe is all you'll get from science one day. If I'm right(I don't say that with doubt), I've got nothing to lose and eternal bliss to gain. But, you've got all eternity to lose and suffer. If you're right, you and I both die like a dog, and we're soon forgotten. Either way, I've got nothing to lose. You Joe, are the only one at risk. Joe, In the end we'll see who is right. I'm not arguing any further with you. Science is used in my profession, and for me to make a living. That's all. The Bible is nothing to you. So what either way?? Why argue now?? If you want to talk to me sensibly, I'll be glad to respond. But, if you make sarcastic, argumentitive comments, I won't respond anymore. It makes no sense to. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The End will bring all arguments to a close. Take Care
John D. Griffin

2Thess.2:1-2(KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Rev.3:13 He that hath an EAR, let him HEAR what the SPIRIT saith unto the churches.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the FAITHFUL and TRUE witness, the beginning of the CREATION of God; (the Laodicean church age is our present age)

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither COLD nor HOT: I would thou wert COLD or HOT.

16 So then because thou art LUKEWARM, and neither COLD nor HOT, I will SPUE thee out of my MOUTH.

17 Because thou sayest, I am RICH, and increased with GOODS, and have need of NOTHING; and knowest NOT that thou art WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and NAKED:

18 I COUNSEL thee to buy of me GOLD tried in the FIRE, that thou mayest be RICH; and WHITE RAINMENT, that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the shame of thy NAKEDNESS do NOT appear; and anoint thine EYES with eyesalve, that thou mayest SEE.

19 As many as I LOVE, I REBUKE and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and REPENT (the Lord is beckoning, that people get back to Him)

2Thess.2: 3″Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first”(WE’RE HERE)

(This is next for the Saved/Born Again Christians)–> 1.Thess.4:13-18(KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as OTHERS which have NO HOPE.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the WORD of the LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we EVER be with the LORD.

18 Wherefore COMFORT one another with these WORDS.

(Next is what will come on earth to the Unsaved Christ Rejectors)–> 2Thess.2: 8 And then shall that WICKED be revealed, whom the LORD shall CONSUME with the SPIRIT of his MOUTH, and shall DESTROY with the BRIGHTNESS of his COMING:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all POWER and SIGNS and LYING WONDERS,

10 And with all DECEIVABLENESS of unrighteousness in THEM that PERISH; because they received NOT the LOVE of the TRUTH, that they might be SAVED.

11And for this cause GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE a LIE:

12That they ALL might be DAMNED who believed not the TRUTH, but had PLEASURE in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. ( Please obey John 3:3,7 KJV)
- Joe Agnost
  
  Yawn… still??
  - John D. Griffin
    
    Eph. 5:14(KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light
  - Lynda Hardin-Poston,
    
    Hey Joe,
    
    Why don't you ask John to send you a KJV of the Holy Bible so you can read all this yourself and relieve the rest of us from his inability to articulate any cogent arguments for his irrational interpretations, so he copies from the Bible. I think that is called Plagiarism.
    - Daphne
      
      I'm just a passer by, noticing the articles that have been written. I was noticing the things that were being tossed back and forth. Lynda had asked Joe, to have John, send him a copy of the kjv bible? Joe's whole input, was telling everyone that he's an atheist. Why would Joe ask for a Bible? How can posting bible verses be plagiarism? I have a kjv bible that my grandmother had given me, and there is no copyright in there. Modern versions that I've got do have copyrights though. I checked a friends kj bible just to make sure I was not making a mistake in saying that there is no copyright, and there is no copyright. John seemed to be the only one who had a firm belief, and good reason for his beliefs. He had asked Lynda several times to show him a prophecy that had ever failed in his bible, and so far, I've not seen her give one. He also asked her to challenge his teacher, and they could even video it. It only seems smart to trust a bible that a prophecy has never went wrong in. I heard of nothing else offered that could be in no way better? I'm ashamed myself for not spending more time in my bible. I had promised my grandmother that I would. The disagreements that Lynda, Joe, and John had were for a reason I guess. I got to hear about religion at random, the side of an atheist, and from a bible believer. You guys made it easy for me to make my decision. If for nobody else it made me promise myself to read my bible everyday, and read it to my kids too. I won't put nobodys ideas or anything ahead of my bible ever again. thank you
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Well God Bless you Daphne! I found myself in the same situation many years ago. I had heard all kinds of philosophy from many different people. Most of the people were highly educated. Their ideas and advice were always directed away from sound Bible belief. It was always scrambled, senseless, and had no righteous foundation. Through God's word, the Holy Spirit convicts mankind of their sins(John 16:8-11). Men don't like the idea of facing God with their sins, repenting of their sins(Acts 20:21, 2Cor.7:10, 2Pet.3:9 etc..) and receiving Jesus as their Lord and Savior(Rom.10:9-10, 13). I didn't either when I was lost and undone. I was a drunkard and a womanizer at the time. I was introduced to pornography at age 6, and was introduced to alcohol, and was experiencing intoxication at age 7. You talk about a wrecked, depraved life. In the midst of all of the rediculous, philosophical ideas, that religious people had, God sent a Bible believing minister to my work place as a co-worker. He annoyed me with his Bible verses every time he got the chance. Finally, he said "I'll leave you alone if you'll come to a church service". I said, "will do then" . I headed out for a revival meeting at his church on a Monday night, thinking if I can get through this, I'll have it made. All of the way there, I was justifying my sins, and trying to prepare my heart to withstand the preaching that I was going to hear when I got there. The Lord had a message prepared just for me that night. For the 1st time, God's word had convicted my heart. The Lord opened my eyes to the fact, that it was my sin that His Son died for on Calvary's Cross. Yes, it was for the sins of the world, but the world is made up of "individuals". The Bible said, "Christ died for the Ungodly", "for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God", "for the wages of sin is Death", "there is none that doeth good and sinneth not", "like sheep they have ALL gone astray", "the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things", etc.. When the invitation was given that night, I prayed, and asked the Lord to be merciful to me a sinner, and I asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me. He did that very moment(2Cor.5:17, 1Cor.6:9-11). The intense desire for alcohol was immediately gone, and I was married not too long after that. While traveling down a busy four lane one day, the Lord called me to preach. The Lord said, "I want Honor, I want Glory, and I want Thanksgiving, we don't have long". Immediately, my windshield turned into a vision of a congregation of people, and I was preaching to them. Tears were streaming down my face, and when I got myself under control, the Lord did it again. He said, " I want Honor, I want Glory, and I want Thanksgiving, we don't have long". I surrendered to the general call to preach then. Not long after that, the Lord would wake me up in the middle of the night. I would sit strait up in the bed, and be preaching. The Lord kept doing that, and he was giving me visions of the inside of a prison. The visions were so vivid, that I knew everything about the inside of that prison, and I had never been on the inside of one in my life. I surrendered to the prison ministry, and when the Lord opened the opportunity to get into the prison that I was called to, the inside was just like God had shown me in my dreams! I mean just like he had shown me! That was in Feb. of 1992, and I've been an evangelist to the prison, and any juvenile centers that I can get into. Since then, the Lord has saved a multitude of prisoners, and juvenile offenders. To God be all of the Glory. I'm thankful that God saved this miserable sinner. Religion will never save anyone, but "the Blood of Jesus Christ God's son cleanseth us from all sin." Thank the Lord for you, and I hope to hear back from you soon. God Bless you. 2Tim.2:15KJV
      - Daphne
        
        Thank you so much John! Your testimony is incredible! The Lord was dealing with me last night, while I was reading my bible. He was showing me that I was not saved. I bowed my head right there, and asked Jesus to save me. And, he did! Immediately, He lifted my burden of sin and guilt. I have joy and peace, like I have never known in my entire life. I can't put my bible down. God is showing me wonderful things in His word! I am so thankful. I've brought my friends, and my family members, to this site to see the articles that were written by you, Lynda, and Joe. They are total bible believers now, after hearing all three sides! They had never seen a bible believer face people as you did. They were amazed. We've copied and pasted all of the articles from the 3 of you, to use in witnessing to people about bible truth. We are going to put brochures together, and give them to people who are intimidated by religion or science. We are also starting group bible studies tonight! Would you please give me the website of your bible teacher you had spoke of? I want as much material from him as I can get. God bless you, and I will be eternally Grateful!!
      - John D. Griffin
        
        Well, Thank the Lord Daphne. That's what it's all about. I hope God will use you, your friends, and family, to reach many more! I will give you my teacher's web address. You'll have to put the www in front of it. This site kicks out comments containing full web addresses for some reason? You'll find my teacher and his study helps and information at( www).kjv1611.org You'll not find a more brilliant man on the planet. God has richly blessed him with knowledge and faith. Watch him on DVD debate with University professors about Evolution. Also, he has a 6 hour DVD, on the Bible vs Evolution. Another great one is "The Mark of The Beast". Another God called Evangelist to listen to is Phil Kidd. You'll find his material at (www).drphilkidd.com (you know how to type in the web addresses, I'm having to post them like I did, to keep the system from kicking my message out) A couple of my recommendations from his site is "Islam and Bible Prophecy" and "Why I believe America will Face Another Civil War". Again, I thank the Lord for what He's done for you and yours. I hope to hear from you again soon. You can also find me posting comments under many articles from the Patriot system. God Bless, and Take Care 1Cor.1:18KJV
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