4 Objections to God

by Wes Moore

The truths about God are not settled…at least in the minds of the perishing. His every attribute and action is up for grabs in today’s free-thinking society. As always, you can run from the truth, but you can’t change it.

Here are solid, clear answers to four of the most common questions about the God of the Bible. (All of these and more can be found in my book The Spiritual Top 50.)

1. Aren’t we all part of God?

I wonder if those of you who are asking this question really understand all this worldview teaches about reality. The idea that “all is God and God is all,” as some put it, though it has many forms today, originated in ancient Hinduism, and is also known as pantheism. [1]

This view of life holds that God is not personal or even knowable. In pantheism, God is “transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only a manifestation.” [2] In other words, God is not a person, with a will or personality, and cannot be understood by human beings.

Further, the life you are living today is not your first life, nor will it be your last. You are living but one of countless existences where you have been trying to earn your way to a higher state in your next cycle of birth, called samsara. Eventually you hope to become one with the impersonal, unknowable god.

Finally, suffering is an illusion caused by your false belief that you are an individual separate from the Ultimate Reality that is god. Suffering can only be eliminated through an increasing knowledge of your oneness with that mindless Reality.

Let me mention a few concerns you should have with this worldview:

If God does not have a will, he cannot help you. There is no one to turn to when you’re in trouble.
Who will love you? We all seek someone to love us. But a mindless entity cannot love.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ shows that God is personal and knowable, that he acts in time to help people, and that people are not reincarnated, but resurrected.

2. Is God a she?

There are some things we cannot know about God unless he tells us directly. In terms of gender, the Bible (which claims to be God telling us about himself) clearly states that God is masculine, a “he.” This doesn’t mean that being female is less “godly.” After all, God created women and loves and values them just as he does men. And he gave them uniquely feminine qualities, qualities that flow from his perfect nature, though he is distinctly masculine.

But why trust the Bible’s claims about God? Here’s a short list of reasons (also see my article “Four Objections to the Bible”).

1. The Bible is the most well-preserved book in human history.

2. The Bible contains accounts of miracles written down by reliable eye witnesses.

3. Science, archaeology, and experience confirm its teachings.

4. It has transformed millions of lives, including mine.

This question touches on the whole concept of God’s nature. In addition to those who teach that God is a “she,” there are those who teach that God is in all of us and in nature (referenced in the last question). God, in their view, is “mother earth,” or some kind of combined, mindless consciousness of man, animal, and the natural world. God is not a person, with a personality and a will, but a presence in us all.

What I ask of those who hold this view is to show me your proof that God has these kinds of attributes. You have to have a reason for your beliefs. You can’t just believe something because you believe it. That’s irrational and absurd—that’s not only blind faith, it’s ignorant faith (no offense intended). Why? Because you can never know you’re right. You can’t say your belief is any more valid than believing in fairies or pixie dust.

In fact, the evidence shows the opposite. The same reasoning we use every day tells us that God must have a mind and a will, and that he cannot be a part of creation.

3. Why does God let people suffer?

To understand why death and suffering exist, you must understand two simple truths:

1. We have been separated from God, our source of life, allowing death to enter.

2. Our separation is not based on God’s choice, but ours.

The first man, Adam, refused the Creator’s command and brought death to all creation (Genesis 3:17-19). You might ask why God would allow us to suffer death in the first place. Why didn’t he stop Adam or rescind his sentence? At some level, the answer is a mystery; I can’t say for sure, and I’m not sure the Bible does either. [3] However, there are a few things I can say for certain.

First, God cares about you, and is not unaware of what you’re going through. He has ordered this situation for good (see the third point below), and will help you if you reach out to him now. He won’t necessarily make the problem go away, but he will give you strength to endure it, wisdom to understand it, and bring it to the end at the right time.

Second, God allowed it to fulfill his ultimate purpose in creating. His ultimate purpose was not to provide us with a “cushy pillow life,” but to demonstrate the full glory of his nature. Evil, death, and suffering demonstrate, among other things, the excellencies of his justice, mercy, patience, and grace.

Third, God allowed it to bring about a good otherwise not possible. The Bible is replete with illustrations of this. An excellent example of this is the death of Jesus Christ.

Finally, God has done more about it than anyone. He limits evil and suffering now, he commands his people to labor to meet the needs of those who are hurting, and he died so it could be fully and finally eliminated (Jesus Christ on the cross). Perhaps best of all, one day he promises no more (Revelation 21:4)!

4. Why would God send anyone to hell?

Here are a few things to think about when considering this question.

In the first place, why wouldn’t God send anyone to hell? Whether by execution or life in prison, we punish criminals severely when their crimes justify it. Why can’t God?

Second, don’t place your own sense of morality above your Creator’s. Be very careful when you think of elevating your changing, culturally influenced, and often corrupt moral compass over the unchanging, independent, pure moral nature of God.

Finally, to grasp the reasonableness of hell, you must understand the holiness of God. Holy means “separate or transcendent.” God’s nature—his sense of morality, justice, and judgment—is infinitely higher than ours. He’s on another level altogether. We’re like pee-wee league football, and he’s the best team in the NFL.

To us, a moral slip isn’t that big a deal. After all, we can honestly say we’ve been there before, or at least as sinners, we can understand. Only the most heinous of crimes move us. But God’s moral sensitivity is not so numb. He has never sinned; he is completely pure; he is infinitely offended with each moral lapse.

One famous confession says this: “The Lord our God is… infinite in being and perfection…who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute.” [4]

A proper understanding of hell is required for a proper understanding of God.

Conclusion

Some questions in the culture are the same as they’ve always been; some are brand new. Whatever the case, there’s no reason to fear the evidence. The God of the Bible has given us solid, powerful answers to every question. Best of all, we are all capable of learning those answers and sharing them with those around us.

So, don’t be intimidated. Be bold. Engage the lost. Overcome their questions. And, most of all, lead them to the truth found in the humble Carpenter from Nazareth.

Notes
[1] Norman Geisler and William Watkins, Worlds Apart: A Handbook on Worldviews (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1989) on The Norman L. Geisler Apologetics Library on CD-ROM (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2002).
[2] Dictionary.com. Accessed June 24, 2010.
[3] Many would say God did not stop Adam because of free will. I used to think this as well, but I’m not sure this holds up biblically. God frequently shows his willingness to change the will of a person in order to get them to accomplish his purpose. See Proverbs 21:1, Jeremiah 41:11-12, and Philippians 2:12-13 for a few examples. Furthermore, that change of will does not make the person a puppet. Unlike us, God’s transcendent power allows him to influence the will without becoming a puppeteer.
[4] 1689 London Baptist Confession. “Chapter 2: Of God and the Holy Trinity,” available at: www.vor.org/truth/1689; internet; accessed March 30, 2010.

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DORIS CZOCH

I'M SO THANKFUL THAT THERE ARE STILL A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD AND THAT IS IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA AND THAT HE IS THE GREAT I AM AND THE HOLY GOD OF ALL MANKIND. THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU ARE DOING, I PRAY THAT PEOPLE WILL WAKE UP AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS COUNTRY AND NATION IS CRUMBLING DOWN AROUND OUR EARS BECAUSE OF THE NON BELIEF IN JESUS, IF WE WOULD GET BACK TO LOVING GOD AND TRUSTING AND BEING A NATION UNDER HIM ONCE AGAIN, HE WOULD TURN THIS NATION AROUND. IMAGINE EVERYONE OBEYING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, HOW PEACEFUL THIS NATION WOULD BE AND EVERYONE WOULD CARE ABOUT ONE ANOTHER AND THERE WOULD BE NO MORE CRIME OR EVEN HIGH TAXES, JUST IMAGINE HOW WONDERFUL THAT WOULD BE. LET'S PUT GOD BACK INTO OUR NATION AND OUR HOMES AND OUR CHURCHES. HE IS THE ANSWER. PRAISE HIM AND GIVE HIM THE GLORY HE DESERVES. HAVE AN ATTITUDE OF GRATITUDE FOR ALL HE HAS DONE FOR US.
- Marie Tripodi
  
  Your one statement stopped me in my tracks! How "Peaceful" this country would be, if we ALL followed the 10 Commandments!!!!!!! How true!!! If only!!!!
- http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com chris
  
  If you believe in God and country, then be Proud of it, and stand up for it!!
  
  Here is the place to do it: http://www.Patriotic Christians Today dotcom.
  
  In Today's society, we can no longer be the "silent majority". Support the cause, join with other America supporters, who wear the red/white/blue wristband with the American flag and their commitment to our great God and Country. As this cause continues to grow, the only people not wearing a wristband will be liberals, muslims and Obama supporters! Which group will you be in??
- Marilyn W.
  
  I pray that there are more than just a hand full of believers in the God of the Bible and his son Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord forever! You are so correct when you say that he is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega the one and only true God. You are also correct in saying that if we put him back in our country, in our schools and every facet of our lives he would be Lord of all and save our country from ruin! He would be able to look at us once again. As it is right now he has turned his face away from us because of the sin and evil. Give him the praise he deserves and glorify his name again. He inhabits the praises of his people. We cannot belong to him until we accept his son Jesus as our Lord and Savior. As believers in Jesus we know that he is the only way to the Father. The sooner we begin to thank him and praise him the better off we will be. Thank you, Jesus for dying on the cross for my sins. Praise the Lord forever. Amen.
http://None Frank Berveiler

How can God be an all caring and all knowing God, when there are more humans in the world who don't know God than there are Christians?
- salesman
  
  Popularity is not any kind of reasurance that something is the truth, or that God is all knowing and caring, is it?. Furthermore, dont forget that God gave man a free will do and live as we please. And with that will, we either live a life pleasing to ourselves or to God. If He made us believe in Him, or actually showed His face to prove His existence, then we would not "choose" to follow Him, we would have to believe in Him because the evidence would require it (amazingly, I bet some would still doubt), then we would not be pleasing God by our choosing to love and follow Him.
  - joe agnost
    
    salesman wrote: "we either live a life pleasing to ourselves or to God."
    
    Are you saying you can't have both? You can't live life to "please" yourself AND god?
    - Laymond Tucker Jr.
      
      I have found that living a life to please God brings me more satisfaction in my life than I could have ever imagined. I was married to my wife for 23 years when I accepted Jesus into my heart, it was then that I fell in love with her. Our marriage is now wonderful. I have also found that I am free to be me ! I do not have to pretend to be something that I am not. Living for God allows me to live a life FILLED WITH JOY !
    - Jen
      
      Matthew 6:24
      
      “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
      
      I would say this goes for anything that takes the focus off of God, especially ourselves. But in His magnificent wisdom and grace, i have found that the more I take my focus off of myself, he blesses me beyond anything I could have done on my own. The more I serve Him by loving and caring for others, the more He blesses me. I still have never been able to out-bless God!
      - Marilyn W.
        
        Amen and Amen!!!! Truer words were never spoken. Like I said, He inhabits the praises of His people. If we are saved then we are His people. We cannot be His people if we don't believe in His one and only son, Jesus Christ and that he died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the third day. Give Him all the glory, honor and praise! Amen.
    - Tx Pastor
      
      I don't think salesman had it quite right. It really should be you can't serve God and the world. Essentially those who follow Christ must put God first. We cannot serve two masters. Everyone either follows God or they follow the world. They contradict each other so a person cannot follow both.
    - Margie
      
      There is a saying~ "Love God and do as you please". If you truly love Him, you won't want to hurt Him and you'll want to please Him and do His will. He gives you joy that the world cannot give. Pleasing yourself leads to more and more of an unfulfilled life and the Bible says that one who is self indulgent is dead while they live. (1 Tim. 5:6). Only God can give you real joy.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    salesman says:
    
    (amazingly, I bet some would still doubt), then we would not be pleasing God by our choosing to love and follow Him.
    
    If some would still doubt even if he showed us his face, then there would still be a choice being made. You make statements without even thinking what it actually means. And why did it not take away Moses free will when god showed himself when he wrote the 10 commandments?
    - Marilyn W.
      
      Jeff, God didn't show Moses His face, He showed him His backside. Go read the Bible and find out what you are saying before you say it.
- CHOATE
  
  MAYBE YOU SHOULD SPREAD HIS WORD MY BROTHER
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    People have been expecting the return of Jesus for 2000 years. Jesus said he would return. Matthew 16:28 was very specific. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Jesus is clearly saying here that He will return before some of them die!
    
    Yet even though he was wrong, even though he has never returned in 2000 years, people still claim he will. There have been numerous predictions of when he will return. They have all been wrong. They will continue to be wrong. There is a simple reason for this. The story is a myth.
    - OldGoat1940
      
      Tell you what, Mr. Dixon, Send me a note in a thousand years or so and tell me how that "myth" idea of yours is working for you. i'd advise you to take along a set of fireproof undies when you cash in your chips!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Interesting how I am willing to provide my name, yet you hide behind a screen name OldGoat1940. Way to stand up and be counted for your lord.
    - michael
      
      Jeff my man have you ever thought that you may be the myth? You have to realize that if you or anyone knew when he was coming we would be clean as a new driven snow. you must remember also that Gods time is not the same as our time. One second of his time could be years in our time. . Just be glad that he is giving you all the time you need to clean up your act. Jeff my man he is sitting waiting for you. One thing we must all remember we blame god for all the bad things that happen Yet he has nothing to do with any of it. you see when you were first concieved he gave you absoluetely free will do do what ever you wished to do and never once will he enterfer with your decisions. Sure he hopes you will love him enough to want to be with him. but that is your choice to make. If you just think about everything that is bad.you will find man has caused it. Desease we have caused, sickness we have caused, death we have also caused. But remember he also gave us the intelligency to find many answers he never leaves us alone. All we have to do is REALLY TALK TO HIM and he will answer you back. Trouble is we don't know how to talk to him. becaude our hearts are not filled with love, but doubt, hate and jealousy. Learn to love and you will see his face smiling at you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        michael says:
        
        One thing we must all remember we blame god for all the bad things that happen
        
        Nonsense. I do not blame mythological beings for bad events. Bad things happen because we live in a world where it is likely that something bad will happen to someone at sometime. It is random probability and has nothing to with a god or supernatural events.
    - Philip Isett
      
      Dear Jeff:
      
      If you would read Matthew with an open mind, you would find that immediately after the words you quote comes the Transfiguration (Matthew 17), in which Jesus showed himself in his Divine Majesty to Peter, James, and John, none of whom was dead at the time. This was the fulfillment of his prophecy in Matt 16:28 and should be understood in that way, unless one, like most (though not all) of the Jews of that day, insists that the Kingdom just isn't really there unless it includes triumphant armies, etc. The most important passage — I think — in predicting the Second Coming (which is what you are really referring to and which is not the same thing as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven, which themselves may or may not be one and the same), is Acts 1:10-11, which makes it clear that something different from a brief but glorious manifestation of the Kingdom is still to be expected — sometime.
- http://MSN Dr. Doom
  
  It's the people who don't care…God is not willing that anyone should perish, but everyone come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. They refuse to trust the way, the truth and the life. By the way, there have always been more humans who don't know God than have known Him. I would guess out of 6.5 billion people on this planet, that no more than 1% have clue who God really is. The rest do not care to know who He is, if they did, they would pursue the course to get to know Him. Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly dividing the word of truth. Paul was writing about Moses and the prophets, not the new testament. Jesus Christ said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." His Father sent Him on a mission and fulfilled His mission and He is seated on the right hand of God His Father in the third heaven. "Real" change is coming soon, I hope you're ready!!!
http://thedailylily.com mg HENRY

Hell is reserved for the devil and his rebellious comrads who tried to ascend the throne of God. But if a mortal human INSISTS upon goind there, then there are clear cut stiuplations that will assure an eternal life in hell with the devil and his angels. Deny the God Who made us. Deny His sovereignty over all of creation. Worship things and other celebs. Ignore the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is the Way the Truth and the life and NO MAN goes to the Father in Heaven except through the DOOR, Jesus Christ ,God's Son.

If you say you love God the only way you can prove it is to love his Son and believe that His Son is God incarnate and to serve Him. If you believe that Jesus was a nice man, wise, a prophet but that's it you will have a reservation in "you-know-where". If you love GOD, you will love His Son.
- Johnny
  
  Well said. If you want no part of God and his heaven, there is only one other place for you–the place that is utterly away from God, who is the only source of anything that is truly good. It is not so much that God sends you to hell, but that you have chosen existence away from God.
- Margie
  
  Well said. There are some "Christians", sadly, who denigrate other Christians for standing on God's truth. There are some who even believe that Hell isn't a real place, and some who believe that a fictitious place called Purgatory will save them from going there so you can sin all you want and still go to Heaven.
  
  There are some "Christians" who will readily take the side of the Enemy against others Christians in matters of Sin. I am seeing this more and more everywhere. But Jesus says this:
  
  "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." 1 Jn. 5:2 & 3.
  
  Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them. (Mt. 5:17).
  
  If we are excusing Sin the way the World does and compromising His standards then we preach a different gospel, and not the one of Jesus Christ.
- http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com chris
  
  Its so nice to hear so many positive comments and affirmations for our God.
  
  If you believe in God and country, then be Proud of it, and stand up for it!!
  
  Here is the place to do it: http://www.Patriotic Christians Today dotcom.
  
  In Today's society, we can No longer be the "silent majority". Support the cause, join with other America supporters, who wear the red/white/blue wristband with the American flag and their commitment to our great God and Country. As this cause continues to grow, the only people not wearing a wristband will be liberals, muslims and Obama supporters! Which group will you be in??
Jimmy Joe

The bible clearly stated;"You have not because you worship the creation,and not the creator"As well;"Those who are lovers of the world,are enemies of god"Remember these quotes whenever you pray to god,for intervention.Or question gods existance,or logic.God is not a politician that is willing to tell us what we want to hear,or give us what we think,we want or need,according to what fullfills,our time,and place.In short.To buy our love,or loyalty.Thats how lucifer works.The world doesn't revolve around us.It revolves because of his will.And its according to his will.That we must seek him.Jimmy Joe.
Donald R. Dodge

My life experience has demonstrated to me that , indeed, God is real. The Holy Bible was written by God through the witness of his prophets, and his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. God set forth the rules of behavior, the 10 Commandments; and gave us the only path to righteousness, and everlasting life. He also gave us free will to chose our own life's path. If we chose not to embrace and acknowledge the supremecy of our God, then we must pay the consequences of such action. God is without sin, and wants us to be free of sin. We have a clear choice: Glory with God, or damnation with the Devil.
http://www.banjo-creek.com Michael S. Hagstrom

How do you escape the accusation of circular reasoning in that you believe in all God is, because the Bible says so, and you believe in all the Bible says because God says so. Neither is provable, but must be accepted by faith. So the conclusion often is made that it is simply a book written by men? So I can choose what I want to put my faith in, and that could just as well be 'The Cat in the Hat'.
- Jen
  
  There are many ancient books that we take at their word only because of the number of copies that were made in their time. Many had only 8-100 copies made and also speak of the same people and events during the time immediately after Jesus' death and 100+ years after. Many that wrote of Him were not Christ followers but spoke of His miracles. The Bible had hundreds of copies, even then and continues to this day to be the number 1 best selling book on the planet and translated into over 2000 languages. If you do even basic research, this can all be established on fact rather than faith. We do however, need faith to open our hearts to the fact that Jesus is still alive and wants a relationship with us. The only way to truly understand and believe, is to acknowledge that we have sinned, ask forgiveness, Thank Him and then ask Jesus into our hearts. That comes through faith and without actually doing that and being sincere, one can never understand the transformative, life-changing power that is available to them though that simple act of faith. I pray that you will find it for yourself Michael.
  - Margie
    
    To add to Jen's fine words I am reminded of this wonderful proclamation of Divine Truth from the Bible:
    
    "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." Rom. 10:17.
    - Harry Cauley
      
      Jan I agree with you in part but one must also realize that there are many translations around. Some are pretty good but many are attempts to satisfy a theological position and not to advance the teachings of Christ or the Old Testiment prophets. Take the New World Translation for instance, Worked up by the Watchtower Society of New York, that one is filled with errors in translation and done so with intent to glorify the organization that created it. I would not dispute that the Bible is the Word of God by any sense, nor do I beleive that there is a translation that is inspired. I do believe God is what Christian teaching sys He is and is intrested in seeing us in His heaven with Him some day. But the New World Translation denies hell and the deity of Christ. Yet it sounds like and looks like the real thing. So let's be careful of which translation we use.
      - Margie
        
        The Watchtower org. is the Jehova Witness' if I'm not mistaken.
        
        As to other translations, yeah they've been watered down over the years, sadly. I was raised up since a new Christian decades ago reading from the RSV (Revised Stabdard Version). It's basically the King James with all the thees and thous removed. The King James (KJV) is preferable to it though, because I've found that words in the old English are more meaningful and even the RSV had some words changed a bit.
        
        I have discovered a wonderful Bible in my advanced years (well, not that advanced.. well that could be debatable to some :^)) that I think you would love. It is the Interlinear Bible. It has on each page the original Greek (for the NT) in the middle of the page, the KJV on the righst side, and a literal translation of the Greek on the left side. It's also coded with Strong's Concordance numbers. It's put out by Sovereign Grace Publishers and compiled by J.P. Green.
        
        Hope this helps.
- Philippians 4:9
  
  Michael S. Hagstrom -
  
  The crux of your statement is "Neither is proveable,…".
  
  "Proveability" in the sense that you have been taught about things, and as you seem to use it, is a concept conditioned by and predicated upon what our five senses can register. However, if you dig deeply into the realm of modern scientific investigation (physics, quantum theory, placebo/nocebo effects, mind) you will find that our 5-senses are simply inadequate to deal with everything by classical logic concerning the universe around us. All kinds of things go on and exist around us that are invisible to our puny little five – and those things are part of the creation God set up. He is even outside of those created things.
  
  Suffice it to say your "accusation of circular reasoning" misses the mark – by a long ways – if only because of things you DON'T know that are in the Bible. For instance, the statement in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Since we can know from that statement that God is His Word to know one is to know the other. There is no circuitous motion from one to the other. It isn't A=B; it is A is B. Different Words for the same thing. Now, you probably can't at this point comprehend that because it isn't something you ever considered. To be fair you can't be on the outside looking in. You've got to be on the inside smelling the smells, hearing the sounds, palpating the impalpables, loving the love. Why say baseball is a stupid game if you've never been in the ball park? Your judgement is a little skewwed.
  
  Look at it this way, your pronouncement against believers is the same as someone saying he hates the pattern of a lady's dress when he himself is a blind man.
  - Jeff
    
    Philippians 4:9 says:
    
    For instance, the statement in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Since we can know from that statement that God is His Word to know one is to know the other.
    
    We do not "know" this, you simply want it to be that way in order to reinforce your worldview.
http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com chris

Check out the website; http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com. I have posted some views on Godin the Gramma's common sense page. Hope you will support our cause as well. God Bless America.
Bob FAntelli

Perhaps a stumbling blck for those non believers is "How can God know who we are , what we do , how good or bad we are, etc." With billions of people now living and billios more who have prdeceased us, how can God ifinitely keep track of all of us,our transgressions, bad and good eeds?

My answer. THINK COMPUTER,SCIENCE AND PHYSICS if you do ot believe in the Bible. (Which I do) today we have computers that can store infinite information, make billions of transactions in a second ( China has one) and track unlimited events, peolple etc. Certainly if comuters can do all lhat, would not a power so much greater than it and us be capable of doing such ( and Much more)/ Of course !

Science and physics have proved that matter creates energy and that ENERGY CAN CREAT MATTER ( Hadron super collider in Cern Switzerland) WOULD NOT A POWER GRATER THAN US and THE SUPER COLLIDER BE CAPABLE OF DOING SUCH and more? ( FROM THE MINUTEST PARTICLES — Molecules, atoms subatoms, , (nanoS AND nd quarks ) MATTER AND ENERGY IS CREATED. Science has proved that those (nano) particles pass thru the thickest concrete and are constantyy traversing our planet.

Again my opinion . THE SOUL Our souls are detached from our bodies at death. Most non believers feel that death is the end and ridicule the idea that it continues as an entity with intellect and feeings . And ,WOW! Those nonbelievers just can not put it together that our decomposed bodies will reunite with our souls at the 2ND Comming ( OH , they say, nonsense!– Really !~- Then read om) Recall those nano and qurks mentioned a few sentences ago?

It is my belief that our souls are comprised of bilions of such minute particles that are formed together and detatch from our bodies upon ph=ysical deth . They remain intack as an indivisable AND intellectual entity thaT will reunite with the body at the 2ND comming. How can our physiclly, but decayed bodie reuntie? Think again All matter is composed of bbillions of diverse ,minute cells, and elemens which in turn are boroken down into millions of nanos ,quarks etc. Those infinitely miniscule materials are retuned to earth and our surroundings . At the LorsD"S command at the 2ND comming all sub atomic quarks and nano substances that make up our bodies will be reformed i instantlyy and reattached to to billions of souls that are in existence. The billions of particles which comprise our souls contain a "Memory" chip" (like in computers- keeiping n mind that all chips can be broken down into those minute invisible nanso and quarks previously mentioned) which store all ouactivity and transgressions occurred during our lves At the 2ND comming and final judgement believers and folowers of Jesus and those who do not know Jesus but who otherewise led the lives that Jesus espoused will enter into His kingdom . Those who knowingly reject God and Christ wil not see His kingdom.

Nuff said? Sure. Much more could be said by Scholars, scientests and PHd;s. I am just an aveage Christian with only modest intellect who is striving to do the Will of the Lord in any way i can. Hopefully if my discouse can enlighten just one non believer then it will be well served.

Whew ! I have finished !

RJF

Paxton MA
RICHARD

WOULD YOU GIVE ME YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF ETERNAL EXISTENCE IN HELL ?

OR, WHAT IS HELL, AND DO THE LOST SUFFER FOR ETERNITY IN HELL, FOR MAYBE 60 OR 80 OR SO YEARS OF BAD CHOICES ON EARTH ?

RICH
- Margie
  
  Hi Richard,
  
  I recommend that you go to a Christian bookstore and ask for a copy of the New Testament. By the time you are finished reading through it you will definitely know what Hell means.
  
  I am sincerely suggesting this to you and it is of the utmost importance for your eternal soul!
  
  God bless you for wanting to know the truth, and reading the Bible will guide you there most assuredly.
- http://MSN Dr. Doom
  
  Richard, only one "bad" choice can doom one to hell and eventually into the "Lake of Fire" for eternity. That one bad choice or lack of, is not choosing to believe in the substitutionary, sacrifice of one man on a cross, nearly 2,000 years ago. He, Jesus, paid the price for you, me and all humanity, once for all, forever. He paid for our sins and gave all who believe a ticket out of hell and eternity in that Lake of Fire, (which is not hell) and you can get your ticket "punched" by believing the truth of that Gospel, (good news). Jesus Christ rose from the dead after three (3) days in the grave and no one will ever find a trace of Him, because He is not here, but at the Father's right hand and He will come again, soon. "Real" change is coming soon, I hope you're ready!!!
Zack

God – the Creator:

God is the Creator. God always existed, no one created God. Christ (Messiah) Jesus (peace be upon him) is not the Creator. Christ (pbuh) is a created being like Moses, Abraham, Noah and Adam (may peace and blessings of God – the Creator be upon all of them).

God is a Creator. Creator creates and cannot be Born. Jesus (pbuh) was born – Jesus (pbuh) was created by the Creator. God is only ONE, therefore God Has no sons or daughters or children or parents (or biological father) or relatvies, because He is ONE. There is nothing in His (Creation of God) that is comparable unto HIM – God.

Creator cannot be incarnated or re-incarnated – that's an ancient belief of Hinduism:

Unfortunately Paul adopted that belief of Man-god concept for Jesus (pbuh) to keep his pagan followers pleased. Jesus (pbuh) was born to his mother Mary without a biological father – does not mean that Jesus (pbuh) was god or son of God. Again, God is only ONE as such God has no sons or daughters or only begotten son. Creator does not beget nor creator was begotten of any one being the Creator of all.

Everything is God is a concept in Hinduism. Fact: Everything you see around is the Creation of God, the Creator. Creator is ABOVE His Creation.

God is not a MALE OR FEMALE:

God is a Creator of both Male and Female genders. God is above genderness characteristics. God created living beings in pairs (male and female) but He Himself is ONE. When we use terms He, Him or Himself for God, it does not mean that God is a male. Let both men and women should know this that God is above gender quality. God does not eat or drink, God provides us (males and females). Due to eating food, the sexual ability for reproduction is created by God, in the humans, animals, birds etc. God is free from such needs being the Creator.

Both Mary and her son used to Eat (Earthly) food: Both Mary and her son Jesus (pbuh) used to eat like all other human beings and walked in the markets. Neither Mary was goddess nor Jesus (pbuh) was son of God. Simply because God is God. Son of Mary was a Messenger of God, and holy son of Mary only.
- Jeff
  
  So, we have Zack explaining religion according to the Muslims. Can any Christian answer this? What can you say about how you know the Bible is the inspired Word of God, that a Muslim cannot say with equal sincerity about the Qur'ân? Or can Zack explain it in reverse?
- Philippians 4:9
  
  Zack –
  
  God is God. He can do what He wants to do. He says what He wants to say and does what He says He will and can do. He can't lie, though, and can't contradict Himself – say one thing at one point in time or place and then say the opposite at another to someone else.
  
  Your book says God didn't raise Jesus from the dead. Mine says He did. Your book says God has no children. My Book says He wants us to think of Him as "Father, Daddy, Papa" and come to Him and ask for His help when we need something He will cover. He said He wanted to accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice of himself on the day of Passover to be worthy of forgiving the sin of any man who sought or seeks God's forgiveness. He said he will be El Shaddai for anyone who enters within His mercy and grace, goodness and glory, impacting power and exercised authority. He chose faithful men of God to write down what He told them to write – which they did. And it still stands today as powerfully and majestically in authority over the affairs of men as it ever did.
  
  Your god of your book chose a brigand, thief and murdering highwayman to write his stuff. He offers you nothing, treats you like garbage and the best you get in eternity is 72 squabbling women. He doesn't heal you and only provides for you when you want to destroy yourself and as many other people as you can. Your book calls upon no one to testfy to the wonders it does for their lives.
  
  Like Elijah at Mount Carmel, I say, "The God that answers by FIRE – Let Him be God!!!"
  - Zack
    
    Philippians 4:9 says about God:
    
    He can’t lie, though, and can’t contradict Himself
    
    Since God has always been ONE for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issma'el, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus and all Messengers sent by same ONE God. God was never Trinity or Three in one or Triune. Neither Psalms (of David) nor Ten Commandments, nor Torah (Old Testaments) talk about Trinity or Three in One or Triune-god. God was always ONE from the ancient time!
    
    HOW AND WHY SUDDENLY GOD BECAME TRIUNE-god or Trinity (Three in one) ???????????
    
    Obviously its a FALSE belief.
    
    I know Truth is sometimes hard to swallow!
Harry Cauley

Michael you have to give us an answer to where did life come from in any form let alone intelegent life if god did not create it? Believing in fables as you say it fruitless. I agree.. It is true that the concept of God with attributes Christians give Him is illogical to the human mind. Forinstance God has no beginning, and etc. Well god does exist and the Bibkle is the word of God non-the-less. When you look at all the evidence of the Bible both historic and self procliamed the proofs become unchallengeable. But you would have to do the research for your self to find the truth. I have done that and it strengthened my faith in God. But iif you do embark on that mission be careful because there are a lot of groups out there that want to lead you in the wrong path. Take the Watchtower Jehovah's Witness' for one. Their pat saying is; "The Greek Scholars say." Practically non of these people know one Greek scholar or they miss quoate them on purpose. I know this for a certainty having been involved with them for several years. I am not one now for sure.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Harry Cauley says:
  
  When you look at all the evidence of the Bible both historic and self procliamed the proofs become unchallengeable.
  
  When you see so many fables from the bible that science has shown to be wrong, that is a ludicrous statement. The Genesis account of creation is wrong, there was no Adam or Eve or Garden of Eden, the Flood of Noah never occurred, the Exodus never occurred, and historians cannot even agree to the veracity of whether Jesus even existed. The bible is simply wrong time and time again.
Donald R. Dodge

Zach…..your forgetting that the Crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and his resurection were witnessed by the apostles and many other people. Do you think that the Apostles would have risked and suffered death for spreading the Gospel message of they had not been witnesses to Jesus' resurrection and ascention to heaven?
- Zack
  
  Disciples have been highly praised by God being true Muslims (believers in ONE God). Like Jesus, Moses and Abraham, the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh) were 100% true Muslims, as God himself testifies:
  
  "When Eessa (Jesus) found disbelief on their part, he said: "Who will be my helpers to (for the work of) Allah?" The disciples replied: "We are helpers of Allah: We believe in (ONE God) Allah, and you do bear witness that we are Muslims (submit to Allah only in Islam)". (Qur'an 3:52).
  
  "Our Lord! We believe in what you have revealed, and we follow the Messenger (Jesus): so So write us down with those who bear witness". (Qur'an 3:53).
  
  "And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah also planned, and (ONE God) Allah is the best of planners". (Qur'an 3:54).
  
  "And remember when Allah said: "O Eessa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the lies of those who blaspheme; And I will make those who follow you (i.e. Muslims) above those who reject faith, to the Day of Judgment: Then shall you all return to Me (Allah), and I will judge between you of the matters in which you dispute". (Qur'an 3:55).
  
  "For those who reject faith and disbelieve, I will punish them with terrible pain in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will not have anyone to help". (Qur'an 3:57).
  
  "And for those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them their reward in full; But Allah does not love those who do wrong". (Qur'an 3:57).
  
  "This is what We repeatedly recite to you about the Verses and the Message of Wisdom". (Qur'an 3:58).
  - Zack
    
    As the verse 3:55 of Qur'an states, the true followers of Christ Jesus (pbuh), in the sight of Lord are "Muslims" only, not Jews or Christians. This a point to ponder by both Jews and Christians.
Jeff Dixon

The apostles should be twelve of the most famous people in history. We're told they were hand picked by Jesus to witness his wondrous deeds, learn his sublime teachings, and take the good news of his kingdom to the ends of the earth.

Which makes it all the more surprising that we know next to nothing about them. We can't even be sure of their names: the gospels list a collection of more than twenty names for the so-called twelve disciples – with Bartholomew sometimes showing up as Nathanael, Matthew as Levi and Jude as Thaddeus, Lebbaeus, or Daddaeus!

It should be apparent that if the twelve were actual historical figures, with such an important role in the foundation and growth of the Church, it would be impossible to have such wild confusion over the basic question of who they really were.

But what do we know about any of them?

The fact is that for seven of the twelve, our only early source, the Gospels, say nothing about them at all. They are just names on a list.

Isn't it a tad odd that such worthies, infused with the Holy Spirit and given powers to heal the sick and cast out demons, wrote nothing, or had nothing written for them or about them? Isn't it odd that men chosen to be eye-witnesses to the mighty deeds of Jesus, wrote no eye-witness statements, left no sermons, no memoirs, no letters, no teachings, no pithy words of encouragement?

All that we have about "the twelve" are conflicting legends and fantastic stories from a much later date, tall stories about where they went, what they did and most especially how they died. Their deaths, it seems, have been recorded in loving and lurid detail. And it is the graphic deaths of the disciples that solves the riddle. We've all heard the apologetic claim: "Would they have died for a lie? Therefore the story of Jesus must be true."

But we all know how useful to a cause is a dead martyr, even if he's a fiction. In the case of Jesus, the twelve are a fiction, a necessary entourage for a sun god, passing through the twelve constellations of the zodiac. Just like other saviour gods, Jesus had to have his retinue.

The truth is, the twelve disciples are a grubby and sordid invention.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/apostles.html
- Zack
  
  Qur'an is silent about the names of the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh). Qur'an is also silent about the quantity (number of disciples). However, its only a guess since their were 12 tribes of Jews, perhaps one Disciple to lead each Jewish tribe were being trained. But Jews refused to accept the Messenger Jesus and obviously then the Disciples too were also rejected unfortunately. Thus paul got an opportunity, and he messed up everything by taking the message to Pagans. Gospel (of Jesus) was only intended for Jews. Paul disobeyed Jesus (pbuh) hence he created all the confusion. God sent down Qur'an to act as an Arbiter for all. But only those who fear the Lord will accept it.
Margie

I think the only wildly confused person around here is you, along with being grubby and sordid.
arjun jobil

When someone doesn't have a leg left to stand on, personal insults are a last resort. If you are so sure about the apostles, Margie, just tell us the names of the twelve apostles. And why didn't all of them write about Jesus? Why does most of the NT consist of the writings of Paul, who never saw Jesus in the flesh, rather than the apostles who were his companions for a number of years? Finally, why does Paul never mention the disciples as such, except obliquely with a disdainful tone?
- Zack
  
  I agree. Paul messed up everything and has caused all the confusions in the minds of genuine seekers of Truth and understanding ONE God. Paul by adding two more (gods) in ONE True God, created new found faith Trinity which never existed in the Religion of all the Messengers and Prophets in the past. There has been nearly One Hundred Thousand Prophets sent by ONE God, from Jacob (pbuh) through Jesus (pbuh); And nealy 24000 (Twenty-Four Thousand) Prophets from Adam through Issma'el and Isaac, i.e. prior to Jacob (pbuh), and none of them preached three gods (Trinity) or Triune-god or One in three concept. All Messengers and Prophets throughout history preached only ONE God – the Creator, never a Man-god. Man-god concept was borrowed by Paul from his Budhhuistic, Hinduistic and Paganistic followers unfortunately.
Margie

No last resort here. I engage the resident liar often.

Now, what exactly is your problem?
- Jeff
  
  You quote bible passages, but otherwise you do nothing that would be considered engaging me. You also avoid answering direct questions very well.
  - Margie
    
    You aren't here to engage people anyway. You're here to mock, scorn ridicule, lie and otherwise be the skunk at the garden party. In other words, you're a troll.
    - Jeff
      
      I engage many. However, why are you unwilling to answer a question?
      - Margie
        
        No one seems to be able to answer you, Jeff. I wonder why that is?
      - Jeff
        
        Many people answer me. I believe you are trying to say, that I do not agree with their answers. Wow, what a shocking revelation .
Margie

Well Jeff, that is true~ you do not agree with the answers of many good Christians when they try and reason with you. You respond with vulgarity towards both them and God. You have your cause, whether you are a paid troll or what I don't know because as a matter of fact you never answered that question honestly with a yes or no. Continue on, it's good exercise spiritually.

"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the Heavenly places." Eph. 6:12.
- Jeff
  
  I have never cursed at anyone on here. Once again, you are lying about me.
  - Margie
    
    I Never lied about you, it's the truth. You are despicable and lie in almost every post, about God and about others~ and you just did it again.
    
    You dig your own grave, it's what you choose and you won't be able to blame God for it when you wake up in eternity. I do hope you repent, that's all I can say.
    - Jeff
      
      Then show a post where I cursed at someone. It does not exist, because you lie about anyone who disagrees with your mindless dogma. Go on, I will wait for you to show a single post where I cursed at someone.
      - joe agnost
        
        unbelievable irony there Margie! You claim that Jeff lies and curses in his posts. He asks you for evidence (which is like asking for the world to a christian) and rather than produce ANY (not one shred) she calls you a liar some more.
        
        It's ironic that Margie is lying by calling Jeff a liar… it's also intellectually dishonest.
  - Zack
    
    Be patient all of you. Margie is right. The aim should be to learn from one and another, not mock. Jeff: If you are sincere toward mankind, you should not mock. You should apologize from Margie. Let's try to learn from one one and another in a decent friendly manner.
    - Jeff
      
      Since Margie has called me a liar and despicable for doing nothing more than voicing my opinion, I have to laugh at the idea that I am the one that should apologize. All I have done is ask that she support her outrageous claims. So far, all she has done is just make more of them. Sorry, no apology is due on my part. I am actually owed the apology.
Frank L

Study yourselves to be shown approved. That means to get a King James version because you can trace the words with an Strongs Exhaustive Concordance. Don't let other persons tell you what's in the bible because you will mostly be led astray. You are responsible for reading the letter that God has left for us to study. God said let us create man in our image, the angels. So When God made male, he is in the image body of God. The Elohim was in Heaven before the foundation of the earth, Something happened that God made man to test wheather he would be on Gods side or would follow the ways of the world. That's why we only have 10% of our brain utilized, when we die we will have full memory and remember the prior earth age. Some will say mountains fall on me because they will be embarrassed on knowing that they did'nt make back to God. The Apocrypha 2nd Esdras 7:76 on thru will let you know what the souls are doing on the opposite side of the gulf. There is so much in the Bible that without studying you cannot know the promises of God to you his children.
- Zack
  
  God Created Man (Adam) in the "NATURE of God" and Not "Image of God". The word "Nature" has been erroneously translated as "Image" in the Original Scripture revealed by God Almighty. God is unlike humans. God is much ABOVE human thinking or imagination. God is ABOVE HIS Creation. Adam was creature of God – cannot be in His Image. A man will be like his father and Grand-father, and Grand-grand father etc. God Has no father or son(s) or daughter(s) because God is Only ONE. "God Created Man in HIS True Nature" not Image. The difference is obvious, between Nature and Image. God is not like Man. Hence, Man is Not in His Image. Man is Created in HIS NATURE. The Nature of God is that God is Honest and Just, never lies, that's what HE expects from HIS People to be in HIS Nature like HIM by worshipping HIM – ONE God Only and Obeying HIS Commands which HE communicated to Mankind through HIS truthful Messengers Chosen from Mankind such as: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (son of Mary) and lastly and finally Muhammad (may peace and blessings of God Almighty be upon all Messengers).
http://betmileagebooster.Com Bobby Taylor

I know people that think they can live good enough life to make it to heaven God's word says the only way is thru his Son, Jesus Christ. The Bible says our good works are like filthy rags in God's eyes. I believe the worst thing about hell will be no hope forever and ever, NO HOPE.
- Zack
  
  Only way is through Jesus Christ — Does not sound true, because:
  
  If this was true then all righteous people who lived before Jesus (pbuh) was born, and truthfully followed their Messengers Moses, Jacob, Abraham and Noah (may peace be upon them) are doomed to Hell ???? No way!
  
  Jesus (pbuh) is Not the only way. Fact: All Messengers said the same or similar words which simply means:
  
  "Obedience of Messenger Jesus (pbuh) is like obedience of God, so Obey Jesus (pbuh) but Worship only the ONE God". All Messengers like Moses (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh) and Noah (pbuh) said or commannded or gave such or similar Message to Obey them (the Messengers) as Obeying Messengers of God is just like Obeying the God, but Messengers were not God nor sons of God.
Cess

Jeff says "The fact is that for seven of the twelve, our only early source, the Gospels, say nothing about them at all. They are just names on a list."

Well, the reason there´s not much emphasis on those apostles is because we are not suposed to put our eyes on them, but on Jesus, the Lord who died for us all.
- Jeff
  
  Then there should be a lot more to prove Jesus existed. However, no one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
http://www.silverliningministry.com Ron

Thanks. Well written except for the last part on hell. If you search the Bible well you will see that there is no such place of eternal torment; that is a pagan philosophy that crept into the church via the Catholic reign. The Bible teaches that God will remove all sin from the universe and will bring in a New Earth. That is the simple teaching on 'hell.' Also, God is kinder, more just and fair than humans, and would never have people suffer eternally in a place called hell. That's the devil's wild oats that he has sown about the loveliness of God's character. Any human that is kind and merciful could just as well ask God to take away his eternal life so he would not have to think about those writhing in a place designated hell. Do a careful Bible study and you will find that I am right. Thanks all the same for the refreshing article.
- BrianC
  
  Do a careful bible study and you will find that there is no hell? You could be asked to do the same for the opposite purpose. Jesus spoke of hell in Abraham's bossom. And God sends no one to hell. People choose to be separate from God for eternity by choosing, of their own free-will, to not accept His salvation when it is presented to them. The place separate from God is likely a hell-type place. The Bible speaks of people in prison to whom Jesus comes after He has died for the sins of man and it is likely He saved all of those people if they chose to be saved. So, it is possible that in the end, Jesus will convince even those in hell to choose to come to heaven, but I have no clue. Because of free-will, though, there must be a place separate from God. Life (or consciousness, I should say) is forever, it would seem. We never see a person ceasing to exist in the Bible anyway. We only see an afterlife of either torment or peace. There is sleep in the Old Testament, but that changed when Jesus came and the dead rose spiritually and went to Paradise. You should take your advice and research the view opposing yours and see which is more convincing.
  - joe agnost
    
    BrianC wrote: " And God sends no one to hell. People choose to be separate from God for eternity by choosing, of their own free-will, to not accept His salvation when it is presented to them."
    
    What happens to the humans who die without ever coming into contact with a Christian? They will not have heard one word of your Christian God – they didn't reject it since they'd never heard of it.
    
    (There are still tribes in South America and Africa that have not come into contact with the outside world.)
    
    Do they go to hell?
    - BrianC
      
      Glad you asked. You are assuming that one must know God by name in order to choose Him.
      
      Micah 6:8
      
      He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
      
      There are many people from past and present who have never known God's name (whether it be Jesus or Elohim or Yahweh or Yeshua), but they live by His ways. This is walking humbly with their God. Personally, I believe when these people die, they will meet God and feel that they have known Him all their life, and they will gladly accept His salvation and enter heaven. I look at it this way – if salvation is a choice, then a person must make the choice at some point – and if that point is not while they're a live, that point must be after they have died. Oddly enough, even the people in prison from before the flood whom had chosen against God were given the chance to choose Jesus later after Jesus had died for their sins. Who's to say it will not be similar for others who have gone to hell or chosen against Him? We cannot know for sure, unfortunately.
      
      Keep in mind, Jesus says that no man comes unto the Father except through Him. That doesn't mean everyone has to accept Jesus by name. It means Jesus is the one through whom we all receive salvation which allows us access to heaven. Whether we choose Him before or after death is another matter, but we will have to choose at some point and we will have to go through Him if we are to enter heaven. The Bible doesn't speak much of the afterlife because it is not important to us while living. What is important is what we do while we are here. God has the rest worked out (and even the present, as well).
      - joe agnost
        
        But what about a South American tribe that will inevidably have their own (just as valid IMO) 'religion' which likely includes sacrificing animals to their god. This breaks a commandment or two I think…
        
        They will not have heard of Jesus before. They will be completely ignorant of Christianity in every sense.
        
        What happens to them? If they go to hell how is it their fault?
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC wrote: "Whether we choose Him before or after death is another matter…"
        
        Wait – you're saying that there's is another chance to accept JC after death? Who would, when presented with actual evidence, choose hell over JC?
        
        BrianC wrote: "The Bible doesn’t speak much of the afterlife because it is not important to us while living."
        
        The promise of a happy afterlife is the only reason religion has survived. It's the ~only~ reason people believe in god.
      - BrianC
        
        I included those tribes in my statement.
        
        When you look at the research done on tribes they find whom have never been touched by civilization, you will see that there are three very interesting attributes about most of them:
        
        1 – Tribes in which they believe in no god at all, the children say that they know there is someone out there who created everything. So the children are aware of a God though no one taught them that. And it's interesting, because Romans 1 says that creation itself is a testament to all that there is a God so that no one is without excuse.
        
        2 – Many tribes have or had a 10 commandments and still give animal sacrifices in accordance with old Israelite Mosaic Law requirements. This is because in 724 BC, the 10 tribes called Israel (also called Ephraim) were taken over by Assyria, who took them captive then dispersed them into the Caucasus Mountains. From there, they mostly spread throughout Europe, which is where "Caucasians" originate (Yes, most white people were Israeli originally, oddly enough, because those are the people who populated Europe). Some of them, however, found their way down to Africa. That is the likely origin of these tribes.
        
        3 – These tribes sometimes even know the name of God. They call Him His old Hebrew name, Yahweh. They could only know that if they had come from ancient Israel originally.
        
        So, I would not be so worried about those tribes over there. Even the ones who do not know God, all they need to do is walk humbly with God, which means to simply live similar to His ways. But remember that God is not judging actions to see if people can make it into heaven. No one can make it on merit. No matter who a person is, they must make a choice, and I believe that choice can be made after death even. When dead comes and God walks up to someone and asks if they would like to ask forgiveness for their sins and accept His salvation, they will make that choice regardless of the life they led. God is not so heartless that He just tosses people into hell for no apparent reason. He is a just and merciful God.
        
        When you look at the Native Americans and the Mayans and the Aztecs, you can also find stories where they accepted God. There is an old Aztec story from around the 600 AD era if I'm not mistaken. It says that the ruler at the time was looking up at the sun, because they worshiped the sun as their god. A cloud blocked the sun's light and the ruler said, "You are not so powerful. It takes but a cloud to block out your light. I will no longer worship you, but rather, I will worship the One who created you." He ruled that the entire empire would worship the Creator at that point, and there was a great spiritual awakening in that culture. Those people knew the Creator, God. Native Americans know of the Creator as well, and have for a long time. We even have evidence of the 10 commandments and Roman swords buried in America from the 300 AD era, long before Columbus crossed the ocean. We have other evidences that prove the Romans and others were crossing both the Atlantic ocean to trade with the people here, and possibly even crossing the Pacific ocean. In fact, the Piri Reis map is a compilation of ancient maps from an ancient "undiscovered" culture which maps the entire earth, even the unfrozen Antarctica! Quite Amazing. Read The Puzzle of Ancient Man – it's full of awesome information about technology we've found from ancient civilizations. Very interesting book, and it's very short, so it's a quick read. Hope this helps.
      - joe agnost
        
        Wow. I have to commend you on a kind theology… it doesn't look similar to any form of Christianity that I've encountered, but it's certainly a lot less restrictive in it's rules. The idea that one need not accept JC until ~after~ they die is wild. And you say that JC even presents himself – making "faith" unnecessary – and gives the option of salvation. I can't imagine anyone would go to hell in this scenario.
        
        Thanks for opening up about your beliefs… They certainly are interesting!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        BrianC says: When you look at the research
        
        Please site a source that shows this reseach
      - BrianC
        
        Joe Agnost said:
        
        "Wait – you’re saying that there’s is another chance to accept JC after death? Who would, when presented with actual evidence, choose hell over JC?"
        
        Well, we have evidence in the Bible of Jesus going to the rebellious people of the time of the flood and making proclamation to them that He had died for their sins, and they were likely all saved. So that's one evidence of this happening historically, according to the Bible.
        
        As for people rejecting God, there are a couple of possibilities.
        
        1 – I have heard many convincing stories which are similar on many levels where people have died and told about being out of their bodies. They say they saw things that happened to them after they had died which they could not have known about unless they were there watching from outside of their bodies. There are two books that came out not long ago which are written by children (with the help of adults, of course), who died and were resuscitated and they describe things they could not have known about the events which transpired after their deaths. Also, many of the adult stories talk about being on a journey to a hell type place after seeing themselves dead from outside their bodies. Some of the people make it to a hell-type place only to be resuscitated, and that scares the "hell" out of them (excuse my pun) and they end up deciding to learn about God and get saved. Some of them say they were on their way to a hell type place when angels and a God-like person saved them from it, but they were resuscitated and lived afterward. (these people are usually atheists, of course, when they died and they're telling their stories of becoming believers). After having these experiences, they all tend to come across Jesus and get saved. So, it would seem that when people experience hell or are about to experience it, they seem to want to find another path, and it seems to lead them to God. Here's a great video on YouTube about out of body experiences:
        
        Part 1 of 9
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJo9Bizuufw
        
        That show is hosted by a doctor who had so many people die on his operating table whom were resuscitated and then told similar stories about seeing a hell type place, only to get saved later. The atheist doctor eventually reasoned out that they were not all crazy and that there must be something more out there, so he eventually gets saved as a result. Great video (it originally aired on TBN – though I don't like TBN, this is a good program).
        
        2 – We see in the Bible that God was up on the mountain for all of the Israelites to see and they not only rejected Him, but they built a golden calf and worshiped it right in front of God. How sad is that? So, proof that God exists doesn't cause someone to choose Him. Proof that hell exists, though, seemed to do the trick. lol That's kind of funny, when you think about it. And really, when you look at it objectively, wouldn't a loving God make a consequence to rejecting Him so that people would have something to encourage them toward accepting Him? If separation from Him is awful, then why wouldn't people want to accept Him? I think it's a perfect plan, personally.
        
        You also said:
        
        "The promise of a happy afterlife is the only reason religion has survived. It’s the ~only~ reason people believe in god."
        
        Not true at all. I am not concerned with the afterlife at all, personally. What will come will come. My purpose for believing is because I was at a very low point in my life, depressed and extremely sinful, and God instantly saved me without me even having to ask for it. It was bizarre really. I was 16 and depressed for the first time in my life. I got so bored playing cards one night that I needed to do SOMETHING else – ANYTHING else. So when I heard my uncle asking my mom if she could figure out what a specific passage in the Bible meant, I figured, "Maybe I can figure it out. It has to be better than what I'm doing now." So I looked at the passage. It was nothing special. To understand it, all I needed to know was who the saint are.
        
        I asked my uncle and he said, "The saints are us." Instantly, I felt all of my sin, shame and guilt fall off of me and I felt free for the first time in my life. An amazing love filled me and WOW I felt awesome. Before that day, it would take me 2-4 hours to go to sleep at night, because my mind would not shut down (I had no clue the sin had caused guilt which caused stress which caused the racing mind). After that event, though, I hit the pillow and slept like a baby from then on out. I told my mother all the stuff I'd ever done wrong and she was fine with it. All was forgiven. I told everyone I'd lied to that I had lied to them. None of them cared about that and they were still my friends. I stopped all of my bad behavior once that happened. Life was amazing. That loving feeling is just unexplainable except to say that God's love is amazing. For the first time, I saw the world as it really was. It was like someone had flipped the lights on in a split second and all made sense finally and was completely black and white. My grades got TONS better and I went from an average student to a very high ranking student. I don't care about the afterlife. I care about the fact that when I needed Him most, God came and saved me and gave my life joy and peace and meaning and fulfillment. He is amazing.
        
        Most people do not believe because they're scared of hell. They believe more for reasons like me – they were unhappy and searching for answers and God saved them from their pain and suffering. I wasn't looking for answers when God saved me. I incorrectly thought I was already saved. That event proved me wrong, though, and I'm glad for it. If you believe people believe in God just because of the afterlife, you may want to reassess your beliefs and the beliefs of others.
      - BrianC
        
        Joe Agnost said:
        
        "Wow. I have to commend you on a kind theology… it doesn’t look similar to any form of Christianity that I’ve encountered, but it’s certainly a lot less restrictive in it’s rules. The idea that one need not accept JC until ~after~ they die is wild. And you say that JC even presents himself – making “faith” unnecessary – and gives the option of salvation. I can’t imagine anyone would go to hell in this scenario.
        
        Thanks for opening up about your beliefs… They certainly are interesting!"
        
        No problem. My beliefs are just that – my beliefs. I know a ton about the Bible and mainstream Christian doctrine. Most of what I believe is found in Christian doctrine one place or another. But some of it is strictly theory, especially afterlife and salvation type things. The Bible just is not clear enough on some of these issues and so one must theorize about things here and there. I assume that if they are not mentioned very clearly in the Bible, it is not vitally important for us to know. I, of course, could be wrong in those theoretical beliefs. But the proof does tend to lean in my favor whether mainstream Christianity wants to admit it or not. God is a loving God and gives all the chances in the world for people to choose Him of their own free-will, or at least that's the way the Bible portrays Him.
        
        You also said:
        
        "BrianC says: When you look at the research
        
        Please site a source that shows this reseach"
        
        Many, I really wish I could reference the research for you, but I'm drawing a complete blank on that at the moment. I'm not very good at remembering references, to be honest, and what I told you about is something I haven't researched in detail for years and years. Do a search on the untouched tribes of Africa and their link to ancient Israel and see if something comes up. Also do a search for untouched African tribes and their belief in the Jewish or Christian God. I think you'll be able to find information on it.
BrianC

Wes's answers to some of the questions were not sufficient in the article.

Is God a She?

Everything God created is a shadow of His nature in one way or another. God deemed that males have the authority, and are to use it to love and protect their families. This was to show how God is a protective, loving father with ultimate authority. Thus, God presenting Himself as male has this purpose above all. Also, God knew Jesus would have to be a male when He was born in the flesh, and this makes God a male, as well. Since only a man (Adam) could bring sin into the world, only a man (Jesus) could take it out of the world. If none of those things were needed for our sake, God would probably be genderless, because gender is typically only a reproductive necessity and the spirit needs not reproduce. Both male and female came from God, so in Him is the combined nature of both.

Why Does God Let People Suffer?

Wes said we may never know why God let Adam sin. Not true at all. In Genesis 1:26-28, God gives us free-will by giving us sovereign rule over everything on the earth. That means not even God Himself can make us do things against our will. He has to convince us, just like He convinced Jonah to go to Ninevah. Free-will is necessary because love is a choice. Without choice, we cannot choose to love God, and that is one of the greatest purposes for us here on earth. But with choice comes the ability to choose to rebel against God (sin). That is why Adam could not be stopped from sinning.

Wes said, "His ultimate purpose was to demonstrate the full glory of his nature." This is also not true. God's ultimate purpose was to create people whom He could love and who could love Him in return. His purpose was and always has been love. The reason God shows His full glory is because it shows His awesome love for us, and that is what causes us to want His love and to want to love Him in return. So once again, His purpose is love. Wes is sounding like he believes in Calvinist doctrine, because Calvinists do not believe in complete free-will, and so they believe God could have stopped Adam from sinning and they believe God's purpose is to show His glory. That is why they cannot answer the questions Wes just tried to answer, but could not. With free-will and love, those questions are easily answered.

Why Would God Send Anyone To Hell?

This, again, is very simple when free-will is understood. It's not so much that God sends a person to hell as it is that a person chooses to go there. To be more specific, a person chooses not to be with God, and the only alternative is to be in a place that is completely separate from God, and that place is Hell. God gave us the one thing we needed to go to heaven, and that is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Now, all we need to do is choose to accept it with our free-will. Calvinists see it as God choosing us, but in actuality, God only chooses those He already knew would choose Him, as stated in Romans 8:29.

Hope this helps.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Brianc says:
  
  Since only a man (Adam) could bring sin into the world, only a man (Jesus) could take it out of the world
  
  Actually, Satan rebelled before Adam and he was the one who brought sin into the world according to your book of myths. And since your god says he created evil, it is amazing that anyone argues that Adam was the problem.
  
  “I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things” (Isa. 45:5-7).
  - BrianC
    
    Oh, sorry, Jeff, you are the one who asked for the references. My mistake.
    
    You are incorrect. Satan is not the one who brought sin into the world. You need to read the Bible more closely. Paul says through one man, Adam, sin entered the earth, and through one man, Jesus, sin was taken out. Also, if you read the story of Adam and Eve, you will find that the Earth was great even while Satan was deceiving Adam and Eve. It was great after Eve ate of the fruit, as well. It was only after Adam ate the fruit that God says sin came into the world and corrupted the entire creation.
    
    Keep in mind that Satan was a spirit being, not a physical being of this earth, regardless of whether he could possess a serpent (which actually is translated dragon, by the way) or some other animal and talk to Adam and Eve. Satan was in heaven when he rebelled, not on earth. The result of his rebellion was to try to deceive Adam and Eve so he could rule here, and he was successful. Ezekiel 28 discusses a bit more about Satan's rebellion as well.
    
    Actually, no, the Bible never says God created evil. God did not create evil.
    
    The verse you posted are in the King James version and not necessarily translated correctly. You will find errors from time to time in the King James, even though it is a fairly good translation. On some levels, the New American Standard Bible (NASB) is a better translation, and on some levels it is not. Here is part of your verse in the NASB:
    
    7The One forming light and creating darkness,
    
    Causing well-being and creating calamity;
    
    I am the LORD who does all these.
    
    Creating calamity is much different than creating evil. If you look at all of the different meanings for the original Hebrew word "ra" used there for calamity, it is clear that in context, God is not saying He creates evil:
    
    Here are the possible meanings/translations for that word: evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
    
    Context is what decides which meaning of the word was intended. Here, God is clearly saying that He creates either distress or calamity. He's not saying He creates evil.
    
    Furthermore, you'll noticed that during the creation, when it is all complete, God says that everything in the creation, both heaven and earth and all of the hosts (people) of them were "good". God said everything He created was good. What God did on day six of creation was give mankind complete dominion/sovereignty over everything and everyone on earth. That's free-will.
    
    God's ways are perfect, and mankind and the angels had the free-will to choose to follow them or to rebel against them. Anything different than God's ways is sin (aka – evil). Satan chose first to sin, and became evil as a result of rebelling against good. He convinced Adam to do the same and Adam became evil as well, but God saved him from his evil nature.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      BrianC says:
      
      You are incorrect. Satan is not the one who brought sin into the world. You need to read the Bible more closely. Paul says through one man, Adam, sin entered the earth, and through one man, Jesus, sin was taken out.
      
      Paul says it, however, Satan rebelled before Adam, therefore, that was the first occurrence of sin. The bible says all sorts of things that are not accurate.
      
      Calamity is NOT different than creating evil. Causing misfortune for people is very evil. In any event, causing calamity is certainly not loving and kind. Besides, who is to say your translation is better than the one I used. Bible translators have been arguing about the meanings of these verses for centuries. You want to use your version because you feel it puts god in a better light. But why does a perfect god need to be put in a better light in any situation or “context”. He either is good or is not. And, the biblical god is consistently shown to be evil.
      - Sandy
        
        "He either is good or is not. And, the biblical god is consistently shown to be evil."
        
        You're lying again, Jeff.
        
        "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." 1 Jn. 2:22.
        
        "He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son." 1 Jn. 5:10.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I am voicing an opinion. I also support my opinions. For example, here are multiple examples of god killing people, which is an evil act.
        
        Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
        
        Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
        
        Kill Witches
        
        You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
        
        Kill Homosexuals
        
        “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
        
        Kill Fortunetellers
        
        A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
        
        Death for Hitting Dad
        
        Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
        
        Death for Cursing Parents
        
        1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
        
        2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
        
        Death for Adultery
        
        If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
        
        Death for Fornication
        
        A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
        
        Kill Nonbelievers
        
        They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
        
        Kill False Prophets
        
        If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
        
        Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
        
        Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
      - BrianC
        
        Sandy, he's correct on this one – he's not intentionally lying. He's just expressing his personal belief which disagrees with yours. It doesn't do anyone any good to tell them they're lying. It just ticks them off. If you want to attempt to do something persuasive for Jeff, you would need to show him how his opinion is disproved by scripture. However, that isn't going to change him, because he has some personal issue with God due to a misunderstanding of who and what God is. That's something that has to be worked out in therapy, usually, or he has to be humbled so much in life that he realizes he's wrong and that he needs God. That's not for you or me to do. That's for God to take care of, because this is between him and God.
      - BrianC
        
        Jeff – you are incorrect once again. It is not evil to kill. It is evil to murder. Killing is defined as putting someone to death, and means that the person deserved it for some reason. Murder means the person was completely innocent and did not deserve to die. All mankind are sinners, and so God is 100% justified in killing absolutely anyone He wants to kill for any sin they've ever committed. He chooses not to most of the time, because He wants everyone to be saved.
        
        In Old Israel, they were held to a very high standard, because those were the people who represented God to the rest of the world. If they started sacrificing babies to false Gods, the rest of the world would look at them and say, "You are sick people. If your God requires this or made you this way, we want nothing to do with Him." And yes, at times, Israel went away from God, worshiped false gods, and sacrificed babies to the false gods. And the nations were appalled at them. But when they were worshiping the one true God and following His ways, the other nations came to them for wisdom and guidance and worshiped their God and followed His ways as well. King Solomon is the best example of this, because rules from all over the world came to him for wisdom and guidance, knowing that the legend was true that God had gifted Solomon with all wisdom. So, let's say God allowed tons of sin to happen in His people instead of snuffing it out – it would continue on down the line, generation to generation, more and more children would be affected by doing those sins with each generation. And their example would influence other nations' people and they would do the same sins. All sin drives people away from God rather than to Him. So, the more sin they were into, the more the people would likely reject God. Since these people were representing God, they needed to be as perfect as possible in following God's ways so the world, from generation to generation, would see their example and want to know God and be saved. That's why the Law was so strict for them.
        
        However, keep in mind, the punishments laid out in the law were the maximum punishments, and did not have to be adhered to. They could give lesser punishment for the crimes stated in the law, and they often did. Sometimes they gave the maximum punishment. Also, keep in mind, God was not killing these people – the Israelis were killing them by following the maximum punishments of the Law. The Israelis could have forgiven them their crimes. We see God's true nature in Jesus, because when confronted with adultery, the people were going to stone a woman to death, but Jesus saved her by telling the people that if they were without sin, they could pass judgment on her and stone her. They all knew they were sinners, so they all backed off of the woman and left. Jesus forgave the woman's sins. If God were so awful and hateful and evil, why would He have forgiven that woman and everyone else who asked for His forgiveness?
        
        You see, the Bible says many times that God desires mercy rather than sacrifice. You really need to do your research a lot better, man. Atheist sites are awful at coming up with arguments against the Bible and God. Good luck.
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC wrote: "It is not evil to kill. It is evil to murder. Killing is defined as putting someone to death, and means that the person deserved it for some reason."
        
        Ok. Can you explain to me how a mentally retarded person without a solid grasp of reality could possibly "deserve" to die?
        
        What about a newborn?
        
        You see, when your god drowned the entire planet in a global flood he killed everyone. It couldn't have been pleasant either – drowning to death. How can you explain the newborns and mentally ill people that surely were among the dead?
        
        I can explain it – it's a sick story invented to scare the living daylights out of people thereby ensuring their servatude.
        
        (Aside: I don't believe in god or the bible and also know that there was no global flood, but as a story in your bible it's pretty sick.)
    - BrianC
      
      Again, you are incorrect. The Bible never says SATAN brought sin INTO the world. While Satan could make himself present in the physical world, Satan was in the spiritual realm and had no authority over the earth itself. Mankind was given the authority over the earth. For Satan to corrupt the earth, he needed a man to do it for him, and because Satan could not control man, he had to trick man into sinning so that mankind's sin could corrupt the earth. In Genesis, when Adam eats of the fruit, God says HE, Adam, corrupted the earth with his sin and that is what brought sin into the earth, not Satan. All Satan did was convince Adam to bring sin into the earth. The first occurrence of sin did not bring sin into the earth. Man's first sin brought it into the earth and the Bible states that multiple times. It never says otherwise. You need to do your research more carefully. Right now it sounds like you didn't do your research in the Bible, but instead, you did your research from an atheist website – and their arguments are always very badly laid out and without foundation.
      
      Calamity is very much different than evil. Evil is rebelling against God. God cannot rebel against Himself, and He cannot sin. Therefore, He cannot create evil. However, He can cause calamity. Calamity means disaster. Disaster is very much different than evil. Disaster is an event which may cause pain and suffering in the lives of people. But disaster in and over itself is not evil by any means. In fact, it is the building blocks upon how people learn to develop character and trust in God. When disaster comes and humbles people, they seek God for salvation and sanctuary. Job is a great example. God allowed Satan to bring lots of disasters upon Job, and in the end, it was just enough for God to humble Job, and Job repented of his pride and fear and that made him and even greater follower of God, and God blessed him two fold for it (gave him twice the family and material possessions he had before). My dog was killed not long ago because a car hit him. Was that evil? Of course not. Was it a calamity? Sure. Did I learn good lessons from it and grow as a person? Of course. So no, calamity is not even close to the same thing as evil. Again, you need to research better. You see "misfortune" as evil, because it inconveniences you. So what you are saying is that the way to define if something is evil or not is by how it affects your happiness. If something or someone causes you sadness, they did something evil. If they cause you happiness, they did something good. Well, that's holds no water at all. For some people, happiness is caused when someone shoots someone else in cold blood, because the person is sick and twisted. So, for them, what is good is for one person to shoot an innocent person and kill them. Maybe you are that innocent person. So, if someone shoots you and kills you, to you it is evil, but to the twisted psychopath, it is good. Upon what basis is this moral code you have? Oh, that's right – there is no legitimate basis. It's just your self-centered basis for your own personal gain. The truth is that what is good and bad is defined by the Bible's Mosaic Law. You can find every basic kind of good and evil in the Mosaic Law. And it can be applied to modern ways of committing immoral acts as well. It is a constant standard for right and wrong. It is an absolute. The only other possibility is that we choose what is good and evil, and I just proved to you that that makes no sense whatsoever. You haven't a leg to stand on, because if you're right, then I can shoot you because I've just decided it's better for me to shoot you and take your money. And you have to accept that that is okay, because you expressed that people make up their own moral code (at least that is what you implied by your standard of judgment on what is good and evil).
      
      And no, there has not been argument about the translation of these verses for centuries. Calm down Mr. Drama Queen. lol It's not nearly as you describe it. The fact is that the Hebrews used one word to mean multiple things, because of how colloquialisms were used – sayings of the time and culture. Here's an example – If I tell you that you are cool, I could mean that you are cold or I could mean that you are a trendy, likable guy. So the word "cool" has multiple meanings. If I say you are "bad", I could mean you are a cool guy, or I could mean you are an evil guy. Those are some of our modern colloquialisms (sayings). So, in ancient Israel, the same thing occurred, as it does in all cultures. They had their own colloquialisms/sayings. And so words had more than one meaning. The context is what determines how the word is being used. If I say "the ice was very cool. It looked like a swan," clearly, I am not saying the ice is cold – I am commenting on the fact that someone sculpted it well into a very nice swan. If I say, "the ice was cool to the touch," clearly, I am saying the ice was very cold to the touch. Same applies for ancient writings. If you don't know the culture's sayings, you cannot choose the right way to translate the passage. In context, it is clear that God is saying He causes disasters for His purposes. He is not saying He causes evil for His purposes. For instance, God had Jonah swallowed by a whale, and Jonah was in the whale for three days before he finally told God he would do what God asked him to do (by the way, there are some modern cases where people were swallowed by whales and survived for a few days before being spit out, so we've proven this is very possible). As a result of God causing a calamity in Jonah's life, Jonah went to the people of Ninevah and told them that if they did not follow God's laws, God would bring great disaster to their people to humble them. The people listened and started worshiping God and they were blessed greatly. So God's disaster in Jonah's life caused great blessing to an entire city of people. You may think bad things happening are evil, but there is always a good reason for every bad thing that happens, and someone is benefiting from it. Jonah also learned to be submissive to God rather than rebel against Him.
      
      God is not evil. You choose to see Him that way because you have something against Him, because you learned incorrectly about Him growing up or you made some incorrect assumptions about what He can or cannot do or why He does what He does. That's a personal problem, not God's problem.
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC wrote: "God is not evil. You choose to see Him that way…"
        
        All it takes is a brief look at the work the bible claims god did… hmmm, drown the entire planet killing EVERYTHING including the old, the pregnant, the newborns, the mentally and physically disabled… Flatten whole cities and instructs his followers on the correct way to beat a slave. Your god teaches that if a man finds out his newlywed wife isn't a virgin on their wedding night that he ~must~ stone her to death on her father's doorstep.
        
        It doesn't take much of a leap to realize that the god of the bible is evil, viscious, cruel and petty. That so many people see this as "love" boggles my mind. It's sick.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        BrianC says:
        
        Again, you are incorrect. The Bible never says SATAN brought sin INTO the world.
        
        It does not say that. However, since Satan rebelled before Adam, and that was a sin against god, then that was the first instance of sin. Therefore, Satan first brought sin into the world. Of course, he could not do that unless god allows evil and sin to exist. Since god creates everything, he also created sin and evil. He even says he did.
        
        •I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
        
        •Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
        
        •Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
      - BrianC
        
        That is incorrect, Joe. The Bible does not say that the husband MUST stone the woman. It says that the men shall stone her. All of the rules of the punishments of the Law were the maximum punishment. Often the judges did not execute the maximum punishment for the people, and often a sacrifice could be given to account for the sin, or the judges would give a punishment not nearly as severe as the maximum punishments. Even forgiveness was given periodically. The Bible often says that God requires mercy rather than sacrifice. And what did Jesus do when He was here? He gave complete mercy and forgiveness for everyone who came and asked for forgiveness of sins and healing. And He died to make amends for all sins showing mercy to all.
        
        You missed two important key issues in the destruction of the earth during the flood. You say God is cruel to kill off everyone. The Bible says that the sin all of the people were doing before the flood was so awful it would not be spoken of. It was AWFUL. Which means they were probably sacrificing babies and doing unspeakable awful things to each other and murdering one another and all kinds of stuff. So, for God to wipe them all out saved a lot of people from a lot of pain due to the horrific sins being perpetrated. Now, jump ahead to Jesus' resurrection. If you notice, the Bible, in James, says that Jesus went back to the people in prison from the time of the flood and made proclamation to them about what He'd just done, paying for their sins. In other words, Jesus went there to save them. Jesus would not go to gloat and say, "Ha ha! You guys are stuck here and I just paid for all sins! Screw you guys!" He clearly went to make proclamation of salvation coming and asked them if they would like forgiveness for sins and eternity in heaven. Therefore, these people's lives which were filled with a lot of pain were ended short (and keep in mind, these people had to live with their sins and everyone else's hateful sins for nearly a thousand years till they died! Who wants to live in misery for nearly a thousand years??). They slept when they died, according to the Old Testament. But, when Jesus died, the Bible says the dead rose (their spirits) from the grave, showed themselves to the people in Jerusalem and then went to heaven. So, at that point they were conscious after having slept for centuries or millennia. At that point, they had to choose for or against Jesus. I'm sure TONS of people chose Jesus, if not every one of them. And in doing so, they went to Paradise to live it up with Jesus. So, let's say you lived before the flood, and the flood came. You were living in an awful place where people were horrible to you and you were living in a life of awful sins (remember that sins are what we do to cope with life because we do not feel adequately loved and accepted). Then, suddenly, one day the flood wipes you out. You go blank, like drifting into sleep, and then time passes instantly for you and you wake up at Jesus' death on the cross which paid for your sins and you see Jesus there saying, "Hey, guys, I just died for your sins. You comin' with Me, or are you gonna' go hang out in the fiery place? I'll forgive ya' for everything you did wrong if you just apologize and ask for forgiveness. It's all good!" So you say, "Hell yeah, I'm coming with You, Jesus (excuse my ironic pun)!" and you're on your way to Paradise living it up. Now tell me that's cruel. Dude, I would LOVE for that to happen to me, personally. If I could escape this life and go be with the Lord, that would be AWESOME! However, I have a family and a purpose to help others, and I will not abandon those people and my purpose of being used by God to help others just so I can selfishly go live in Paradise till the end comes. I will endure what I must here to help as many as I can before I shuffle off this mortal coil.
        
        Evil is all about perception and how you define what is evil and what is not. Everyone was evil before the flood, even Noah and his children, so everyone deserved to die. But because Noah actually made an effort to know God, He was said to be justified as righteous by God. God forgave Noah all his sins just because Noah chose to love Him, and that was long before Jesus came. Forgiveness has always been around. You can see it in Psalms and Job, actually. It's nothing new. Jesus just brought it into the physical realm from the spiritual realm by bringing the authority of a perfect man to the earth so that an actual man with authority could enact the rule of forgiveness through a perfect sacrifice. God didn't have dominion here – mankind did, according to God's own rule. Jesus came as a man to take up man's authority here and use it to save them.
        
        That is why we know God is good and we are fools. To assume we know better than God is to assume we are smarter than Him. He says He's good and we are evil, and we claim that by our standards He is evil? LOL That's a joke. For Him to truly be good, He must be just and protective of His loved-ones. In order to love EVERYONE, God had to kill off sinners from time to time from His own people, because had He let them live, they would have had awful influence down through their generations causing tons of people to sin and not want anything to do with God due to the person's bad example spread down to each generation after his. Instead, the people He killed off, their families and friends saw that what their sin got them was execution, and they feared God's wrath of sin and decided they had better straighten up and serve God so they too did not meet that end.
        
        God once wiped out an entire tribe because a few men from the tribe raped an young girl. As He should have! I bet you don't ever seen any tribe doing that to a girl once that happened. God just saved lots of little girls from getting raped with that one act. It is likely that most of the people in that tribe were already saved, and so their deaths got them a quick ticket to heaven. No harm no foul. And a great lesson was taught to the other tribes about disobeying God's instruction to protect children and value them. What you see as evil is only evil from your perspective. From the perspective of the greater good, it is not evil at all, but a kindness to those around and to generations to come. Study the Bible with the intent of actually learning who God really is and you will find a much different God than you think is in there. You have to learn to stop looking through your eyes and start looking through the eyes of mankind and what is good for everyone. And it takes quite a lot of wisdom and understanding to truly reason it out correctly to see how seemingly bad things have great purpose for the good. There is a reason the Bible says judge not lest ye be judged. Toss out the judgment and just start trusting that you don't have all of the answers and that God is probably a lot smarter than you think He is and you just don't quite understand why He has to do what He has to do. He is protecting His people and everyone on earth when He does what seems to be evil things in your eyes.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Brianc says
        
        If you want to attempt to do something persuasive for Jeff, you would need to show him how his opinion is disproved by scripture. However, that isn’t going to change him, because he has some personal issue with God due to a misunderstanding of who and what God is.
        
        Completely wrong. I have no issues with a mythological being. I have issues with the people who believe such nonsense.
        
        But you also have many hurdles to overcome in trying to show these verses have anything meaningful to provide. First, You would have to prove that a god exists. Second, you would have to show that the scriptures are actually the word of god. Third, you would have to prove that the scriptures have not been altered over the centuries. Fourth, you would have to prove that your translations are completely accurate. Finally, you would have to prove your interpretations of this passages are completely accurate.
        
        Since there is no proof that a god even exists, you are going to have trouble with the first one, let alone the other four. But good luck with that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        BrianC says:
        
        That is incorrect, Joe. The Bible does not say that the husband MUST stone the woman
        
        If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her … and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say … these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. … But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
        
        Just because the husband did not actually throw the stones, does not mean he did not initiate the stoning. He is the one who takes his wife to the father. And the verse does not say the husband would not be among the men of the city that do stone her, so you have no basis for claiming the husband was not involved with the stoning.
        
        However, many women break their hymen doing non sexual activities. Horseback riding (or camelback) often does this. Strenuous physical activity can cause it to break as well. Therefore, to accuse her of sexual activity before she was married could be completely false. An all knowing god would know a woman may not bleed on her first sexual encounter. So, either god is evil for allowing a woman to be stoned when she was still a virgin, or the biblical god is not all knowing. Take your pick.
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC wrote: "God once wiped out an entire tribe because a few men from the tribe raped an young girl."
        
        A perfect example of an UNjust god. Killing innocent people simply because "a few men" in their tribe had commited an evil act.
        
        BrianC wrote: "As He should have!"
        
        This is why christians scare me just as much as radical muslims. You're dangerous in your thinking Brian… you really are.
        
        BrianC cont'd: "God just saved lots of little girls from getting raped with that one act."
        
        Well good for your all-powerful god. All he had to do was wipe out a tribe of mostly innocent people. Nice.
        
        BrianC cont'd: "It is likely that most of the people in that tribe were already saved, and so their deaths got them a quick ticket to heaven. No harm no foul."
        
        Wow. Just wow. If you want to know why Jeff and I are so strongly against religion this latest post by you, BrianC, should give you a good indication.
        
        You actually believe that if god kills innocent people that it's no big deal since they're probably going to heaven anyway. "No harm no foul" eh? Disgusting.
      - BrianC
        
        Jeff – Once again, you are using badly translated passages and not making any attempt to understand them in context:
        
        •I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
        
        The usage of evil here is clearly incorrect, because it is a comparison of opposites. Evil is not the opposite of peace. God is saying that He makes peace and creates disaster or unrest or calamity. It's a simple mistranslation of the Old English in 1611 when they translated it. Also, keep in mind that their use of words was different than our own today. Evil was used much more widely than it is today. It was a saying of their time. Just as we say bad to mean bad and bad to mean cool/good, they did the same with evil. They used evil for calamity, for destruction, for all kinds of things. It did not always mean the traditional evil we think of today. We can fix those translation and language barriers by properly translating it to calamity or destruction or unrest or tribulation, none of which are evil – they're just not comfortable for us to have to deal with. God created darkness because when light was created, darkness was the opposite of it. Without darkness, there is no light. God created light, and darkness sprang into existence as a necessity for definition of what light is. Darkness, in and of itself, is not evil. You're misunderstanding the verse and it is being twisted as a result of your misunderstanding.
        
        •Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
        
        This, once again, is a language barrier type thing. Their culture used evil to express unrest or rebellion or disaster. This verse should say, "Shall there be rebellion in a city" or "Shall there be disaster in a city" or "shall there be unrest in a city". It is not literal evil. It is yet another colloquialism, a saying of the times. If you ever study translation, you'll learn this very quickly. It's vitally important for translators to understand the sayings and they often don't, which is why we get really crappy translations sometimes.
        
        •Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
        
        For this verse, you need to read it in context, because it is the continuation of another statement and does not mean what it appears to mean at first glance. I'll use a better translation just so it is easier to understand – Context is the key to comprehension:
        
        31For the Lord will not reject forever,
        
        32For if He causes grief,
        
        Then He will have compassion
        
        According to His abundant lovingkindness.
        
        33For He does not afflict willingly
        
        Or grieve the sons of men.
        
        34To crush under His feet
        
        All the prisoners of the land,
        
        35To deprive a man of justice
        
        In the presence of the Most High,
        
        36To defraud a man in his lawsuit–
        
        Of these things the Lord does not approve.
        
        37Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
        
        Unless the Lord has commanded it?
        
        38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
        
        That both good and ill go forth?
        
        39Why should any living mortal, or any man,
        
        Offer complaint in view of his sins?
        
        40Let us examine and probe our ways,
        
        And let us return to the LORD.
        
        In this context, we can see that the writer is saying that God controls everything, and that God can prevent or cause bad events to happen for the greater good. The people are questioning, like you, why God is being so mean to them. And God is telling them, "I warned you back in Deuteronomy 28 that if you, as a nation, do not obey me, you will be cursed. I even listed out all of the curses and it filled pages and pages! You knew the consequences of your actions and you did them anyway. I take no pleasure in this and I don't willingly cause this destruction to come upon you. I do it because I gave you my word that there would be consequences, these consequences, for your disobedience. I care for My people and all of the generations after you and their influence on the earth so that people will see My people and want to come to Me to be saved. If you misrepresent Me, they will reject me and I cannot save them if that happens. Therefore, I will bring destruction on you as I am now until you humble yourselves and return to Me and follow my ways so I can bless you again. I will not reject you forever."
        
        That's what this passage is about. If you will read in context, you will be able to figure this stuff out a bit easier. To really understand the Bible, you need to read through it (chronological order helps a ton, because the Bible is not in chronological order). And even reading through it doesn't help you fully understand it. It just helps you get all of the information. You then have to study different events and really look into what was going on and why things were done the way they were done. To look at it from a self-centered perspective through our judging eyes through our cowardly society nowadays is to shoot yourself in the foot from the beginning. We live a life that is free of tons of woes people used to have to deal with, both governmental and physical. What nations saw as normality for thousands of years, we see as horrible and cruel today because we are far removed from it. Stop trying to judge through your eyes and experiences and you'll start to understand these people and the Bible and God a lot better.
      - BrianC
        
        As for slavery and beating slaves in the Bible, you're twisting its meaning.
        
        First of all, it was a common practice for people back then to sell themselves into slavery in order to get off of the streets out of poverty. They were glad to raise their social status and work for a living.
        
        Secondly, it was a common practice for Hebrews to buy slaves from other nations and then free them after a few years once they had money to start a life for themselves. This gave the Hebrews a chance to not only free a slave but to teach them about God by example. Often the other countries citizens treated their slaves horribly.
        
        And finally, the rules were to protect the slaves, not cause them pain. Because the other countries citizens beat their slaves to death and did awful things to them, there needed to be some sort of rules in place to protect the slaves of Israelis. God said that if the females were sold as slaves and then the owner decided to marry them and then takes another wife, the slave girl whom is now a wife could not be tossed to the side. The owner would be required to give her all of the things entitled to her as a wife and not dispense with her just because he married a second wife. You can look at all of the rules back then and see that in their society those rules were to help the slaves have more rights and be safer, because God did not want the Israelis to treat their slaves awful like the other countries did.
        
        Here is a short excerpt from an article on the subject:
        
        *****excerpt*****
        
        Why doesn’t the Bible outlaw slavery altogether? Here are a few things to consider:
        
        * Our impression of slavery—from American history—is not the same as the ancient practice. When we think of slavery, we think of people who were kidnapped and sold into lifelong cruelty. On the whole this was outlawed by ancient governments, and expressly forbidden by the Bible (Exodus 21:12-27). [4]
        
        * Slavery in the Roman Empire was frequently a road to freedom and a better life. “Life in slavery, at least with a decent master, could be more predictable and less demanding than the life of a poor free person. Since Romans often freed their salves, and since freed slaves of Roman citizens typically received Roman citizenship, one could improve his social status through enslavement.” [5]
        
        * God limited the abuses of slavery. The Bible protected slaves from prostitution, abuse, and murder (Exodus 21:7-12, 26-27). Kidnapping a free person for slavery was punishable by death (Exodus 21:16), and denounced by Paul as evil (1 Timothy 1:10).
        
        * God took a wise, long-term approach to slavery’s eradication. God laid the foundation for slavery’s demise by teaching that owners and slaves are brothers (Philemon), and both the slave and free man are the same to him (Galatians 3:28). Given the economic situation of the first century, immediate and full eradication might have brought about greater suffering than the institution of slavery itself.
        
        *****excerpt******
        
        It would do you well to start doing your research on more than just atheist websites. You'll only get a very slanted one-sided picture from them.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        BrianC says:
        
        As for slavery and beating slaves in the Bible, you’re twisting its meaning.
        
        Any viewpoint that allows for slavery under any circumstances is depraved. The fact that you find this to be morally acceptable says much about your character.
        
        God forbid many things in the bible, but he did not forbid slavery. Which shows that the biblical concept of god is completely odorous.
      - BrianC
        
        ______________
        
        Joe Agnost wrote:
        
        BrianC wrote: “God once wiped out an entire tribe because a few men from the tribe raped an young girl.”
        
        A perfect example of an UNjust god. Killing innocent people simply because “a few men” in their tribe had commited an evil act.
        
        ______________
        
        There was nothing "unjust" about it. You see those people as innocent when I told you that absolutely NO ONE is innocent, because everyone is a sinner. God is just in killing absolutely anyone He sees fit for the betterment of mankind. God allowed us to take down the Nazi's and Hitler committed suicide before we could get to Him. By all estimations, military strategists say that we should not have been able to take down Germany. Do you believe it was unjust for God to allow us to take down Germany? The Nazi's just thought they were doing the right thing, serving mankind by wiping out the lesser evolved races. Aren't they innocent by your standards, because they were only doing what they thought was right? Your standard of judgment is by your own experience as a person, what is good for you and bad for you. You can't see outside of your own self and look at the grander picture of what is good for the world. Those Nazis were just like you, in that they determined what was moral for them and what was immoral for them. They followed their own moral code and assumed they were doing mankind a favor. You have your moral code and assume it is best for everyone, but in truth, it is best for you because you deem it so. Why is it okay for you to choose your moral standard, but it is not okay for the Nazi's to choose theirs? See the problem?
        
        The fact is that God created all of this and deemed what is the absolute moral standard and everyone falls short of that as sinners, and He is just in taking out a sinner whenever He sees fit if it will help more people down the line. You just cannot grasp that, nor do you want to, because you have some personal issue with God due to some experience in your own life that caused a misunderstanding of who He is and what He is. I cannot correct that for you. When and if you choose to go back to that issue in your life and address it with someone, then you can make some progress in that area. Until then, you will continue to have conflicting beliefs such as you do now and you will not understand God's ways.
        
        _______________
        
        Joe Agnost wrote:
        
        BrianC wrote: “As He should have!”
        
        This is why christians scare me just as much as radical muslims. You’re dangerous in your thinking Brian… you really are.
        
        _______________
        
        I didn't say I would wipe out a whole tribe of people. It's not my call. God did it and for good reason and it had its desired effect. The people were scared to death to hurt anymore girls. And by the way, a large number of girls under a certain age were kept safe from that tribe and not killed so that the tribe could grow again. Not everyone was killed. But I guarantee, Israel was a safe haven from abuse after that happened. Jesus has taken care of sin now and gotten His message across the world. He does not have to lead the Hebrews anymore the way He used to. Jesus completed that chapter in history. So God doesn't go wiping out tribes anymore. There is no need to do so. We are at the time of the end, according to the Bible, and Jesus will return and remove the evil from the world. But what happened in the past always had purpose and the desired effect whether you can see it or not.
        
        _______________
        
        Joe Agnost wrote:
        
        BrianC cont’d: “God just saved lots of little girls from getting raped with that one act.”
        
        Well good for your all-powerful god. All he had to do was wipe out a tribe of mostly innocent people. Nice.
        
        _______________
        
        Not innocent… you have no clue what was going on in that tribe. If men had gotten to the point of raping little girls, clearly that tribe had some MAJOR issues. And being that they had all sinned at one time or another, none of them were innocent. And many girls below a certain age whom were virgins were spared so the tribe could rebuild. Read this stuff for yourself and stop getting things from Atheist websites…
        
        _______________
        
        Joe Agnost wrote:
        
        BrianC cont’d: “It is likely that most of the people in that tribe were already saved, and so their deaths got them a quick ticket to heaven. No harm no foul.”
        
        Wow. Just wow. If you want to know why Jeff and I are so strongly against religion this latest post by you, BrianC, should give you a good indication.
        
        You actually believe that if god kills innocent people that it’s no big deal since they’re probably going to heaven anyway. “No harm no foul” eh? Disgusting.
        
        _______________
        
        That is correct. Let's say you lived in a slum, and life was very difficult for you. Let's say you were a child sexually abused by your parents. Let's say your existence on earth was pretty messed up. It is likely that many of those things were going on in the Tribe of Benjamin since we see some of the men raping a little girl and killing her. If you were a small child abused by your parents, you would beg for death as an escape. I know because I work with abuse victims to help them heal. Most all of them have tried to kill themselves as children and even into adulthood. If someone said they could die and go be in paradise, many of them would take that deal in a heartbeat. You have no clue how the afterlife works and yet you are making judgments on it? Paradise is perfection, complete separation from all things evil and submerged in all things good. Who are you to say that it is an evil deed that God should kill off a tribe of people likely sending them on a quick trip to Paradise where they can live it up like they're in the nicest resort in the world with all the happiness and joy they can handle? No offense, but you are sick to think that you know better than God when God has provided a path for everyone that is far better than what we could come up with on our own. God says that it is His will that all repent and be saved by Him and know Him. That being the case, He has a plan to get as many as possible saved, if not everyone, so that all end up in heaven for eternity.
        
        Now, consider this. There are tons of children in that tribe who may have grown up and rejected God because of the horrible sins going on like raping and murdering little girls. This means many of those children would have ended up in hell as a result. But because they died as children, before they came to the point at which they had to choose between good and evil, between God and the alternative, they ended up getting a free pass to heaven. The adults had already made their choices. The kids, luckily, were saved from that. No offense, but it's sick that you would turn something wonderful like that into something evil. Those children are probably looking at you now going, "Wow, you need to lighten up, man. We don't need you to defend us. We're living it up with Jesus in Paradise right now. We're glad we never got the chance to screw up in life and possibly reject God. Get over yourself."
        
        You just cannot see past your own self-righteousness, and that is where you go wrong.
        
        And do you know what is great about that? You can still have a merciful heart and really love people and mercy and walk humbly in the ways of God (which is mercy, according to the Bible) and when you die, Jesus will be there and say, "Hey, I know you thought God was evil when you were on earth, but you've been walking with Him all of this time and you didn't realize it. You are welcome to be with Me in heaven for eternity if you wish to have forgiveness for your sins. I won't hold it against you."
        
        And that is because God is just that loving of us all. Good luck.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Brianc says
        
        Those Nazis were just like you, in that they determined what was moral for them and what was immoral for them. They followed their own moral code and assumed they were doing mankind a favor. You have your moral code and assume it is best for everyone, but in truth, it is best for you because you deem it so. Why is it okay for you to choose your moral standard, but it is not okay for the Nazi’s to choose theirs? See the problem?
        
        However, the problem for you is that Hitler and most of the Nazi Germans were Christians. Hitler felt he was fulfilling the biblcal gods' wishes by killing the Jews.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Brianc Says
        
        Now, consider this. There are tons of children in that tribe who may have grown up and rejected God because of the horrible sins going on like raping and murdering little girls. This means many of those children would have ended up in hell as a result. But because they died as children, before they came to the point at which they had to choose between good and evil, between God and the alternative, they ended up getting a free pass to heaven. The adults had already made their choices. The kids, luckily, were saved from that. No offense, but it’s sick that you would turn something wonderful like that into something evil. Those children are probably looking at you now going, “Wow, you need to lighten up, man. We don’t need you to defend us. We’re living it up with Jesus in Paradise right now. We’re glad we never got the chance to screw up in life and possibly reject God. Get over yourself.”
        
        However, there is nothing to support this viewpoint. You are just making up something because you think it sounds good.
      - BrianC
        
        __________________________
        
        Jeff Dixon says:
        
        BrianC says:
        
        As for slavery and beating slaves in the Bible, you’re twisting its meaning.
        
        Any viewpoint that allows for slavery under any circumstances is depraved. The fact that you find this to be morally acceptable says much about your character.
        
        God forbid many things in the bible, but he did not forbid slavery. Which shows that the biblical concept of god is completely odorous.
        
        __________________________
        
        Okay, so, knowing what I just posted about people SELLING THEMSELVES into slavery to pay debt or to get off of the street because they are homeless, you still say that God should have forbid slavery?? Wow, that's sick, man. You would rather those people suffer on the street, without a home, without food, and just die off. I'd hate to see how you would treat homeless people nowadays. If I lived in a society where I could take a homeless person off of the street (meaning, they asked to work for me as a slave) and have them serve in my household so I could clothe and feed them and teach them God's ways, I'd do it. Because I would know that I could raise up that person to build a life for themselves, teach them skills that could make them more than I am paying them as a slave, and I could teach them about God and His love and kindness. I would never beat a slave. I would treat them with love and respect. I would then free them when they were ready to go out on their own. Often, slaves would stay with their masters because they loved them and wanted to continue serving them.
        
        You relate slavery to the awful brutal slavery we had here in America a couple hundred years ago. Slavery back in those days was nothing like that, at least not in Israel. And if it were a fellow Israeli, they had to release the slave from their slavery after 6 years, and the slave's debt was fully paid as a result of it. If someone told me I could be a slave for them for 6 years and be completely debt free, own my old land and home again, and get a fresh new start, I would be very tempted to do it – me and my entire family. Why? Because debt, in and of itself, enslaves us. If I knew I could pay all of my debt in 6 years, I would not go into slavery to do it. But if I knew I could not pay off all of my debt in 6 years or even 15 years, I would go into slavery to free my family from the debt.
        
        Do your research and reason these things out from a big picture perspective instead of from a self-righteous, self-absorbed perspective and they will make sense.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Brianc says
        
        Okay, so, knowing what I just posted about people SELLING THEMSELVES into slavery to pay debt or to get off of the street because they are homeless, you still say that God should have forbid slavery??
        
        Just because you said it does not make it factual. Again, you are simply making up stories because they sound good to you. You show no sources for this claim or any of your claims.
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC is a perfect example of the dangers of faith. The things he condones would make most sane people cringe – and he attributes these acts to a "loving" god! Insane.
        
        How much would it take BrianC to act on some impulse of his? I wonder if god told him to kill whether he'd do it or not… scary as hell to think he likely would.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    BrianC says:
    
    Oh, sorry, Jeff, you are the one who asked for the references. My mistake.
    
    Yes, it was I. I also noticed you have not bothered to support your claims by actually providing a source for this "information"
  - Jen
    
    @ BrianC. This is the best explanation yet of the questions asked according to my understanding of the Bible.
    
    @Jeff-Satan was not man, so therefore could not introduce sin to man. Satan is a created being, a fallen angel.
    
    We can argue this day and night and never change a heart or mind. I am not a Bible scholar or theologian. What I do know is that I was a drug addict who lost custody of my oldest child and was contemplating suicide. I called out to God in my suffering and as someone said in a previous post, the Lord pulled me up out of my despair. All at once my eyes were opened and I knew I needed to live for Jesus. I know how it sounds 'cause I was such a huge skeptic myself. I went to rehab and got clean. A year later my ex-husband died of a drug overdose and I got my son back.I had remarried and my husband and I decided to live for the Lord. I was now involved in a wonderful church family who loved me and taught me how to love others the way they had loved me. We went on to have 3 other children and have been in the same church for 21 years, where we serve and try to live the best life we can through God's grace. March 15 will be my sobriety anniversary of 26 years. I owe it all to God and he has blessed my life in ways that only make sense if you know him. None of it makes sense by human standards but it all makes sense by God's. This is my testimony and that of countless other across the world. You can argue all the other stuff, but you can't argue with personal testimony. I had tried all the other ways and when they didn't work, I fell on my knees and surrendered it all to Jesus Christ and he saved me. I pray for each of you here that don't know the all encompassing love and mercy of Jesus, to give him a chance. Try Jesus and if you decide he's not for you, the devil will be glad to have you back ;)
    - joe agnost
      
      jen wrote: "Satan was not man, so therefore could not introduce sin to man."
      
      Following this logic, then god (not being man) couldn't have either…
      
      jen cont'd: "I was a drug addict who lost custody of my oldest child…"
      
      I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like life was pretty tough back then…
      
      jen cont'd: "the Lord pulled me up out of my despair."
      
      It's really sad that you don't credit the real reason you got better: YOU!
      
      ~You~ pulled yourself out of dispair… you're stronger than you think. You don't need to sell yourself short.
      
      jen cont'd: "I knew I needed to live for Jesus."
      
      Again – how sad is ~that~?! It's even worse when you realize that you have a child – it's the child you should be living for, not Jesus.
      
      jen cont'd: "I owe it all to God…"
      
      Self respect – you need a healthy dose of it. You need to give ~yourself~ credit where credit is due.
      
      You went to rehab.
      
      You stayed clean.
      
      You went on the have a wonderful family and life.
      
      jen cont'd: "None of it makes sense by human standards but it all makes sense by God’s."
      
      Since we're humans, and not gods, shouldn't we be worried about what makes sense to us?
      
      jen cont'd: "I had tried all the other ways…"
      
      Such as? What are these "other ways" you claim to have tried?
      - Jen
        
        @ Joe- My first statement I stand corrected. Satan did intriduce the sin, but Adam was the one who sinned.
        
        I appreciate what you are saying Joe. I was there myself. I did try many ways on my own to get clean but was unable to help myself. I just know that one night I cried out to a God that I wasn't sure existed and the next morning, I knew the steps I needed to take to get well. I had a self-esteem problem before this time for sure. Now I am totally confident in who I am. A child of The Most High God! The more I put myself aside and humble myself, the more blessed I am. This is sprirtually, emotionally, physically, and financially a fact of my own life. I really don't have time to go through all of your points Joe. I believe you are a smart man and probably much smarter than I am. I can't out argue you point for point. I can only tell you my story of a totally out-of-control, messed up life that was transformed only after I sincerely called out to God in my time of desperation. More than anything else, this is what I know that I know that I know. It is most difficult to get there for you intellectual, thinking types than for someone like me. May I suggest the book "The Case For Christ" by Lee Stroeble? He was a journalist who set to out to prove that God was a myth and made some incredible discoveries along the way. A good read for analytical thinking types. I do appreciate the dialogue and the way that you have not been atagonistic with me, but really reading with interest and encouragement. The Lord could truly use one like you on his side :)
      - joe agnost
        
        jen wrote: "I really don’t have time to go through all of your points Joe."
        
        No need to really. There isn't much you could come back with – you stand by your beliefs. 'Nuff said.
        
        Good luck.
Manuel A. DaCosta

first time reader passed the site on, very enlightening
Margie

Joe and his alter ego Jeff are liars. Since they read the Bible they would know that.

God's definition of a liar:

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son" 1 Jn. 2:22.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Good morning Margie. Having some false witness along with your morning coffee?
  - Margie
    
    It's you that bears false witness. You are of your father the Devil, a liar from the beginning. The Devil also calls God a liar, just like you. The Devil is also the accuser of the Brethren, just like you. The Bible says he accuses them day and night, just like you. An enemy of God's who calls Him a liar now accuses the Christian of bearing false witness!
    
    Like the father of lies himself you are to be laughed at!
    - joe agnost
      
      Looky looky…. Margie refusing to provide even a shred of evidence that jeff (or me) lies. Again. That won't stop her repeating her lie though.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      I dis not call god a liar. I say that the bible is a book written by men. Therefore, I am calling the men who wrote it liars. Since the bible is wrong in so many places, it is a easy claim to make.
      
      I am calling your god a myth.
      - Margie
        
        "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." 1 Jn. 2:22.
        
        "He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son." 1 Jn. 5:10.
      - joe agnost
        
        It's really simple Margie – if you call a person a liar you really need to provide at least ONE lie to back your statement up.
        
        Vague bible statements don't cut it.
        
        Show. Us. Where. We. Have. Lied…
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Quoting bible verses that someone does not accept as the word of god does not further your claims.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      John 5:31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
      
      John 8:18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."
      
      According to these passages, Jesus is bearing false witness. So I guess Margie is in good company here.
- joe agnost
  
  Once again I, and Jeff, am called a liar… and by Margie ~again~.
  
  So margie, since you continue to parrot this lie I'll ask you one more time: Show the world where I have lied. Produce the evidence for these lies.
  
  You won't because, like the other times this has been asked of you, you don't have squat.
  
  You don't like what we write – but that doesn't make our writing lies.
  - Margie
    
    joe,
    
    Read my above post. If you don't want to be what God's definition of a liar is anymore, then you need to repent.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      It is meaningless to me what your mythological god says the definition of a liar is. I am concerned with reality, not fables.
      - BrianC
        
        All I have to say is… if something is created, it has to have had a Creator. The universe is here, and someone had to have created it. And philosophically and scientifically, it is a demand that that source be eternal in nature, having no beginning and no end, be extremely intelligent, and be all powerful. Otherwise, that being could not have created everything. That is the only logical and possible explanation for how things exist today. Things cannot make themselves out of nothingness. That is the only alternative to special creation. So, which is it? Do you believe everything came into existence out of nothingness with no cause and no purpose and no creator? Or do you believe someone created it all for a purpose? One of these beliefs is logical and the other is illogical and unscientific and impossible. God is not imaginary – He is a requirement. That is why when you go to untouched African tribes and ask the kids if they believe there is something greater than them out there, they all acknowledge that they have not been taught about a "creator-type being", but they know there is one out there because they see creation all around them and they know that someone had to have created it. Get out of your personal self-righteousness and your pride of thinking that you know the only truth and get out off of your judgmental high-horse and realize that you are not all knowing. Come down here with the rest of us and be objective about this and consider that you could be wrong and start trying to objectively figure this out.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        BrianC says:
        
        All I have to say is… if something is created, it has to have had a Creator
        
        Actually, it is very possible that the universe has always existed, going through continuous Big Bangs, expansions, contractions and new Big Bangs. As such, there is no need for it to have been created.
      - joe agnost
        
        BrianC wrote: "if something is created, it has to have had a Creator. The universe is here, and someone had to have created it."
        
        Stephen Hawking disputes this in his latest book… he shows, with evidence to back it up, that the universe HAD to exist due to the laws of phsics. There was no other choice – no god required.
        
        BrianC cont'd: "Things cannot make themselves out of nothingness."
        
        Except your god right? That's what you're saying right?
        
        If not, then where did your god come from?
        
        BrianC cont'd: "God is not imaginary – He is a requirement."
        
        Um no – he's a 'get out of doing any real work' card for the ignorant. He's a man of the gaps – until science fills the gap in and then the number of gaps god fits into decreases… eventually we'll get to none.
        
        BrianC cont'd: "That is why when you go to untouched African tribes…"
        
        ROFL. Why would we expect "untouched African tribes" to any less ignorant of real science than some of the fundies in the US?
    - joe agnost
      
      God doesn't exist except in the minds of the gullible and ignorant.
      
      If you cannot show an example of a lie then I'll continue to assume that it is you who is lying.
      
      "If you don’t want to be what God’s definition of a liar is anymore…"
      
      I don't care what some ignorant goat-herder in the first century thinks makes a person a liar. I go by society's definition: "Liar: One who willingly tells untruths".
      - Margie
        
        "For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body." 2 Cor. 5:10.
        
        See you there.
      - joe agnost
        
        "See you there."
        
        I'll bring the popcorn! ;)
        
        I'll also make ~another~ note on Margie's inability to produce a lie presented by Jeff or me.
richard

I have found this cite very interesting, and look forward to participating in it.

The subject of hell is very interesting.

I have some thoughts concerning hell that have not truly been successfully been addressed (Scripturally).

Nor has the issue of hell been successfully addressed, from a standpoint of my acceptable reasoning.

I look forward to hearing some good, in-depth theologically challenging words on the matter.

It has been of great concern to me, for many of my Christian years.

I have been stumbling down the narrow road for 54 years now.

Some may understand this next remark; Most will not :

I remember when i used a safety razor to shave, and a toilet paper face. Today i never see blood.–

I'd be eternally grateful for the safety razor for some good sense, & Truth today.

A pilgrim
Sam Bacon

This has been an interesting exchange. I did not have time to read all of the posts but a couple of things caught my attention.

Circular reasoning – Every worldview ends up in circular reasoning, it cannot be avoided. Even the atheists' belief that there is no god has no basis apart from their own presupposition that there is no god. Believers in God have to admit that they begin with the presupposition that God exists. The question is, which set of presuppositions (worldview) best accounts for the way things are? If there is no God then all there is the material/natural world. It makes sense that science can only study the natural world with the use of the scientific method. But in employing the scientific method we use certain assumptions – that the natural laws continue unchanged so that things in nature always happen the same way. We can say, "That's just the way it is." Or, we can ask who or what established the laws of nature? We can say things just happen by "chance" but the laws of nature show that it is NOT by chance but things occur in nature with complete regularity that refutes the whole idea of "chance." In addition, we employ reason and logic in our study of nature. The laws of logic we use to study nature are themselves not part of nature. Where do they exist? They are not material. The existence of logic and the laws of nature prove that something other than the physical universe exists. As humans we have respect for human life above that of animals. Christians recognize this as man being created in the image of God. We recognize that man is different than the animals and have significantly greater creative and reasoning abilities including the ability to use logic to study and make use of the physical world. All of this is evidence that points to existence of God who created and governs the universe and has created man in his own image. An atheistic worldview cannot account for all of these things which are non-material, but clearly seen and accepted by all. The atheistic worldview reduces man to just another more highly developed animal with no basis for showing each other greater respect, and that our reasoning and use of logic is impossible because there is no way to account for a world that only consists of matter. So while the Christian worldview is admittedly circular as all reasoning is, it provides better answers than the circular reasoning of the atheist. In fact, the atheist always borrows from the theist presuppositions when studying science because he believes in the regularity of the laws of nature and the reliability of the laws of logic, which have no basis in a universe that consists of only matter and energy.

Because God exists it makes sense that he would create man in his image and would desire communication and fellowship with man. And because he created us in his image it is no great leap of faith to believe God could use men to communicate to man in written form. The truth contained in the Bible and the plan of salvation it teaches throughout is amazing. The Bible was written by many men over many years but is consistent throughout in its teachings. It is the oldest preserved book in the world and has been highly respected by many throughout the ages as well as greatly hated by others. This shows that it is a special book with a very special origin and purpose that everyone should read and study.
pilgrim

Is there much difference betwixt a liar, & a person who tells not a truth ?

Is not the end result much the same in to many instances ?

Upon what ground do any of us stand as to knowing what the truth is ?

Who are you, or who am I to say what the truth is ?

We judge what truth is by our subjective experiences, by others subjective experiences, and by what we have read, by, we hope, eye witnesses to some events, where the issues are more material in their substance.

Somehow we need to trust something for what is true.

We certainly can't always depend on people, not necessarily because of hypocrisy, but just physical and neurological limitations alone make it difficult to understand reality.

Some think deeper, some think, deeper with a greater ability to organize their thoughts.

Some think very superficially, and speciously , and then there are those who are very duplicitous, & nefarious.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  pilgrim says:
  
  Is there much difference betwixt a liar, & a person who tells not a truth ?
  
  Is not the end result much the same in to many instances ?
  
  Upon what ground do any of us stand as to knowing what the truth is ?
  
  Who are you, or who am I to say what the truth is ?
  
  There is a difference between stating an opinion that turns out to be wrong and purposefully telling a lie.
1Vote1 LGH

God doesn't really send you to hell, you send you to hell. God lets you ultimately decide. It is your choices, God loves us unconditionally & he does not force you to do anything but die. After death where you end up is your choice.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Nonsense. God created hell. God established the rules for why one goes to hell. God has known everyone who is going to hell before he created the universe. God knew that people were going to suffer in eternal torment before Adam and Eve screwed up and ate the magic fruit. (That god knew they were going to eat but placed the tree in the garden of Eden anyway.)
  
  God not only sends people to hell, he allows people to be born that he knows will end up in hell. That is one heck of a nice loving god.
  - http://youtu.be/9p7fQD0eLb8 Despeville
    
    'That is one heck of a nice loving god."
    
    Schizoid. "Nice" as a word of of limited and biased creatures who in their limitations project their corrupt and tine sense of "niceness" i.e. stupidity and foolishness on what they cannot qualify – Their Creator. You are a prime example of that stupidity but you are right God knew exactly what is going to happen and what will happen and proceeded to create any way for the reasons your foolish "nice" will never even begin to approach.
    
    Etymology of your irrational qualifier of "nice":
    
    "nice"
    
    late 13c., "foolish, stupid, senseless," from O.Fr. nice "silly, foolish," from L. nescius "ignorant," lit. "not-knowing," from ne- "not" (see un-) + stem of scire "to know." "The sense development has been extraordinary, even for an adj." [Weekley] — from "timid" (pre-1300); to "fussy, fastidious" (late 14c.); to "dainty, delicate" (c.1400); to "precise, careful" (1500s, preserved in such terms as a nice distinction and nice and early); to "agreeable, delightful" (1769); to "kind, thoughtful" (1830). In 16c.-17c. it is often difficult to determine exactly what is meant when a writer uses this word. By 1926, it was pronounced "too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness." [Fowler]
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Hey, good evening Humpty, Been talking with any snakes or donkeys lately?
      - http://youtu.be/9p7fQD0eLb8 Despeville
        
        Plenty.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I suspect you believe you have. Delusion runs deep within you.
- http://youtu.be/9p7fQD0eLb8 Despeville
  
  maybe you should read that bible sometimes…
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
    
    You might try reading it with a open mind.