LDS public affairs chief blogs on Mormon Christianity
Mormons follow Christ, worship Christ and at Sunday worship services take the sacrament — “where we eat and drink the symbolic representation of Christ’s body and blood” — the head of public affairs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Church said in a blog entry posted Wednesday by the Washington Post.
Michael Otterson was responding to the Baptist pastor, Robert Jeffress, who has said Mitt Romney is “not a Christian” because he is a Mormon. Jeffress introduced and endorsed Texas Gov. Rick Perry on Friday at a Washington, D.C. event.
Otterson wrote that the “real rub” for some orthodox Christians who question whether Mormons are Christians is that LDS Church members believe in additional revelation.
Otterson’s comments appeared on the Post’s blog “On Faith,” where he is a regular contributor.
Continue reading at www.deseretnews.com
What we have here is an attempt at damage control, by a Mormon propagandist who knows how to shade the issues in an effort to show that the LDS Church is a Christian body.
Note that Mr. Otterson left out some of the details in which the major devils of Mormonism reside. The Mormon doctrines concerning the natures of God and Jesus Christ have been very much central to the ongoing debate concerning whether Mormons are Christians. Otterson dances carefully, and evasively, around that very significant issue.
Otterson quotes Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve, who explains that, “…any criticism that the church ‘does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself.’
Oh, Yeah? So Jesus, according to this Mormon apologist, taught that God was once a man and that a human male can eventually progress to become a god on the same order as God Himself? If Jesus had taught that, He would have taught a doctrine that is clearly contrary to what the Bible teaches about the nature of God, Christ, and mankind!. So WHERE did Elder Holland go to obtain that “doctrine taught by Jesus Himself”? Not to the Bible, that much is certain. The Mormon doctrines on the nature of God and Man come from extra-Biblical sources that are NOT recognized by orthodox Christians or even by non-Mormon unorthodox Christians for that matter.
Non-Mormons indeed, and for good reason, harbor “a recognition…that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history…”, but non-Mormon Christians, in so doing, most assuredly do not recognize or accept that the deranged Mormon notion of the Godhead “…returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself."
As much as anything else, it is Mormonism’s radical, extra-Biblical re-defining of the nature of God and of His Son Jesus Christ and Mormonism’s absurd doctrine that a human man can progress to become a God over his own world, that stamp Mormonism as a non-Christian CULT! Otterson’s weasel-worded “explanations” do nothing to alter this quandary that Mormons are having to face up to in the current political climate. The presence of two Mormon contenders in the Republican primary contests will do much to educate the public about the bizarre history and stranger-than-strange theology of Mormonism.
-bighossBighoss – I like your comments. They are clear, based on research, and do not resort to name-calling. I, too, would like to see Laura's response. I'm sure everyone here would read it and respond with facts, not emotion.
-Nancy DPerhaps you could explain why the Artist Masaccio when painting the "Holy Trinity" in 1428 in a chapel in Florence, Italy, depicted The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost as three separate images. He then included the inscription: "I was once what you are, and what I am you will become". You may want to consider the notion that this kind of doctrine is not solely the invention of a 19th century farm boy.
Perhaps you could also explain Christ's admonition to become perfect EVEN AS FATHER IN HEAVEN is perfect (Matthew 5: 48, words of Jesus Christ).
And while you are pondering these things, you may also want to review the history of the current conception of the "Trinity". Realize that it came out of the Nicene Creed in 325 AD, over 300 years after Christ. The council was convened by the Emperor Constantine who undoubtedly had political motivations to keep the christians unified religiously so they could remain an asset politically. Many factions of that day held beliefs that are more similar to current doctrine of the LDS Church than that of any of the apostate protestant churches of today. What you are finding "stranger than strange" , may be more ancient and original than you suspect my friend.
-SeanMormon's have no historical records to back up any of their strange doctrine. There have already been investigations to prove or disapprove it and it can unequivocally be stated that there is not one trace of historical evidence at all that proves Mormonism has any basis in facts. If there were evidence something would have been found by now and, rather than hide it they would display it in full sight in a museum so others could see it in order to back up what they claim. It is any wonder that they are one of the most secretive religions there is?
Ever wonder why there is no maps in the back of the Book of Mormon? Even the maps that they do present, do not have any identifiable land mass or area that can be associated with them. Because they are derived from imagination. There is nothing but lies behind the Mormon religion. If you applied critical thinking to actual research you would find this out for yourself.
-CalvinEver wonder what happened to the natives that built the amazing ancient buildings that exist in Mexico, Central, and
-JackSouth America? It certainly wasn't the uncivilized natives that were living there when the Spaniards arrived. Where did they go?
That has to be one of the most prejudice things you could have said. I guess these so called 'uncivilized natives' just wished those ancient buildings to have come into existence. Or maybe the Spaniards did it via transcendental mind control to this so called 'uncivilized native' before they arrived.
Unlike the fictious empires of the Nephites, Jeredites, Lamanites, they died and left artifacts that archaeologist have been able to dig up and prove that they existed and that they built these ancient buildings. There is no evidence that the Nephite's ever existed in the America's. The civilizations of the central America's peaked at during between 600-900 AD which is well after the events described in the Book of Mormon. The Lamanite empire is said to have annihilated the Nephite empire around 400 AD.
The Lamanite empire is said to be the only one to have survived becoming (according to the Book of Mormon) the 'principle ancestors of the native American Indians'. And yet the DNA of the native American Indian has been traced back to east Asian people and not the remnants of the house of Israel as Mormon's have claimed. No evidence has been found of a culture originating in Israel called the Lamanites, or Nephites. How do you reconcile that with the truth?
On the other hand, the Bible accounts for people groups that no longer exist today and yet there is tons of evidence of their existence that has been dug up, cataloged and archived. Such as the Canaanites and Philistines to name two.
It is impossible for an empire to have existed in the America's and not leave one trace of archaeology. Had the remnant of Israelites come to the America's they would have constructed buildings that were familiar to their architecture. Not the Aztec architecture.
The permanent settlements in the Bible that were established are still in existence today. Bethsaida, Chorazin, Jerusalem, Jericho, Bet She'an, Bethlehem, Caper naum, Be' er Sheva, City of David, Nazareth; just to name a few. But yet, there is not one city in the America's named in the Book of Mormon such as Nephi, Manti, Sidom, Jershon, Bountiful, that is in existence today nor is there any record of them outside of the Book of Mormon. It is impossible for them to not leave any archaeological evidence behind.
-CalvinThis is the most prejudiced, uninformed site I have evern seen. Print this if you will.
-LauraLaura–looks like the webmaster took you up on it.
Now then, if you can offer some actual rebuttal to what bighoss said, we'd all love to hear it. Personally, I like Mormons. They make great neighbors and good citizens. I'd love to be able to say that my theological differences with them were of no greater significance than those between Baptists & Pentecostals or even Catholics and Protestants.But everything I've ever read (including the Book of Mormon) tells me otherwise.
How about showing us where we're wrong — name-calling is the last refuge of one who's already lost an argument.
-KenWhat is prejudicial about printing what a person has said whether or not one agrees with it? That type of reporting is practiced by liberals. If a liberal agency prints a story about a conservative, it will either misquote, take the quote out of context or make outreageous jokes about the conservative. As for LDS doctrine, I would not attack them God will judge the quick and the dead. I would only point out that the original Scriptures by which all Christians purport to live give an admonition against taking away or adding to scripture. I think that applies to the Mormon Bible as well as all other additions or subtractions of Holy Writ during the last two thouand years by any or all denominations
-AliceExcept that there are no original scriptures to refer to.
-Jeff DixonI agree.
-LynnLora, and Lynn, have either of you read the Bible ( be truthful)? Have either of you studied Mormonism? If you had we wouldn't be having this conversation for you know and see the differnces quite quite clearly. There are way to many fundamental belief differences to mention here( as Obama does now the agenda is well hidden to the blind). I will list only a few of the major ones here. #1) Common sense say there is no way was the angel of light, Lucifer, and the Son of God were spirit brothers or brothers in any sense. #2) The Mormon Church believes that to get into heaven you must not only believe in Jesus Christ ( who is the Only begotten Son of God and died to save the world), but one must also believe in Joseph Smith, and get his consent: Journal of Discourses, VII, Pg. 289 Also in the History of the Church (latter day saints) , vol. VII pg. 287 . As I stated previously there are way to many doctrines of Latter Day Saints to mention here (literally volumes) that disqualify those who get trapped into the best man made religion ever to be true believers in Christ and truly know their Creator. I feel sorry you for and for all those who remain in what is obviously a false ideology in the guise of a religon, no different in many respects to the JW's and Islam.
-rocketmanTHE REAL TRUTH IS THE MORMONS THROW OUT THE WHOLE BIBLE AND TEACH THE BOOK OF MORMONS. THEY CLAIM THAT GOD FORSAKE ISRAEL AFTER 6000 YEARS AND ONLY THEY ARE THE TRUE PEOPLE OF GOD. IF YOU ASK A MORMON ABOUT SOME PART OF THE BIBLE THEY WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE BOOK OF MORMONS SAYS. MOST KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE BIBLE.
-BobIs that why I (as a Mormon) have been teaching the BIble in Sunday School for the last two years? And why carry a King James version of the Bible to church every Sunday?
-SeanYou are completely ignorant. Over the past two years members of the LDS Church all across the globe have spent an hour each Sunday studying the King James version of the Bible. The lessons aren't to disprove the book, but to relish its teachings as the word of God to His children. Mormons do believe, however, that God loves all of his children and spoke to other nations as well. The Book of Mormon is one such record.
-JackHorrors! I have been accused of PREJUDICE! Prejudice, Laura, is defined in my American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as "An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts." What I have written, and what many others have written about Mormon history and doctrines is based on careful examination of the FACTS about the Mormon cult. If you wish to PROVE that I have shown prejudice, they I suggest you ante up some FACTS that show where I have misrepresented Mormon theology relative to the nature of God and Christ and the matter of human male progression to godhood.
I suggest, Laura, that your outrage is based not on any examination of facts, but on your emotional attachment to the faith into which you have allowed yourself to become brainwashed.
-bighossWe would both agree that you are at least the back part of a "bighoss", now wouldn't you agree?
-mesamanTHE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY OVER 60 PEOPLE 3000 YEARS APART AND IN ONE ACCORD ALL SAYING THE SAME THINGS. MOST OF THESE THINGS WERE FULL FILL. AS THEY WERE TOLD BY THE WRITER. THE BOOK OF MORMONS /KORAN WAS WRITTEN BY ONE PERSON AND THEIR CLAIMS ARE VERY VAGUE. CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON ONE PRINCIPLE THE WAY TO GOD IS THROW JESUS HIS BLOOD WAS SPILLED FOR MAN SIN'S. THE MORMONS AND MUSLIM'S LEAVE THAT OUT ALL TOGETHER.
-BobThe Book of Mormon was written by numerous authors over a 1,000 year period. It was translated by one person. The Book of Mormon mentions Jesus Christ more than the Bible. You would know that if you read it instead of accepting as facts the lies and rumors spread by ignorant and uniformed haters.
-JackThe Book of Mormon was written by one man who was a nothing more than a scam artist. There is absolutely no historical evidence that it was written by none other than Joseph Smith. Look into his families history and you can see how he became who he was. His father was a nut case as well and was well known for his quackery. He is the reason Joseph Smith was so smooth and was able to pull off the ruse he did.
-CalvinThe title of this article is false. There is no such thing as "Mormon Christianity." That is an oxymoron. It contradicts itself. Something can be Mormon or it can be Christian, but not both.
Brigham Young taught that Adam perfected himself and became Jehovah. They teach that Mormon men will become like Jesus for their own planet. They teach that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers and that both are created beings rather than Jesus being eternal in both directions – past and future, etc., etc.
-Bob PegramBob, I agree with your statement concerning Mormonism and Christianity. I would go so far as to say that unless a person or group act like Christ, they are not Christian. In the last half century the name "Christian" has been thrown about and used to describe any number of un-Christ-like people and practices. I will be called Christian only by those who see my witness and determine that it is like Christ. I will not claim to be Christian; the early disciples did not call themselves Christian; but, they were called so by those who observed their attitudes and actions. For they were judged to have been with Christ.
-AliceBrigham Young taught no such thing. Show me the reference, not out of some anti-Mormon literature, but from the original source.
Where did Lucifer come from? If God is the creator of all things are you telling me that God created evil? Why would a loving Father in Heaven do that?
-JackJoseph Smith vehemently denounced ALL existing "churches" — the denominations of his day, saying NONE of them are correct – thus the need for an LDS restoration of the "true faith." Only when this was not gaining converts at the speed they wished did the church change its official stance and begin calling themselves another Christian denomination. This website discusses the issue: http://www.seafox.com/mormons.html
The next site is similar: http://knol.google.com/k/what-do-mormons-believe#
See also this one discussing the cult definition as most Christians understand it and the differences between Mormon vocabulary and the traditional Christian meanings. It also discusses key differences in doctrine as does the next: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html
-dau1776http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_define.htm
Instead of going to anti-Mormon sites to find out what the LDS Church believes why don't you go to the actual source? I don't ask Red Sox fans how good the Yankees are.
-Jackhttp://mormon.org/
First of all the Holy Eucharist IS NOT A SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION!
-Robert De LeonTherefore since the very begining Mormons are wrong and, YES, they follow "The Bookk of Mormon" and not the Holy Bible.
Of course they are not Christians even thought they have such a pompous name.
Robert.
Robert, what is the communion? Does the wafer and wine become flesh and blood as it is swallowed, making the recipients canabals? Or, as Jesus taught, is the eating of the bread and the drinking of the wine a rememberance of Christ's death for mankind? Just as baptism pictures the burial and resurrection of Christ, the communion describes the belief that we spiritually eat and drink the truth of Christ daily. It is not a literal swallowing of His flesh and blood. How that doctrine got started is hard to imagine. And, since it was not an original teaching, one wonders if those who took Eucharist before the teaching are doomed for taking it in vain.
-AliceRobert, your are clearly an atheist. Anyone who believes in Christ also believes in the Golden Rule, something you have obviously turned your back on. No doubt about it, you are NOT A CHRISTIAN!
-JackThere is major difference between a Mormon and an evangelical Christian. It is as important a question as this: Do you want a spiritually dead person (an *enemy of God) or a spiritually alive person? (indwelled by the Holy Spirit – reconciled with God) as your president?
The Bible sates the penalty for sin is DEATH (spiritual & physical) and the "gift" of God is ETERNAL LIFE (salvation – spiritual life)….(Rom. 6:23)
The Bible states eternal life (salvation) comes by "faith" in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith alone in Christ alone.
Mormons teach eternal life (salvation) comes by repentance, baptism, and continued righteousness (good works) to the end of one’s mortal probation. (D. & C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24.) … [D. & C. = Doctrine & Covenants, one of the books considered to be Mormon Scripture; 2 Ne. = 2 Nephi, one of the books contained in the Book of Mormon]
Thus you can see from a Bible perspective Mormons do NOT meet the Biblical criteria for being spiritually alive (salvation).
-James HanrattyI wonder why the apostle Paul wrote so many letters to the Christians in Corinth, Rome, etc. trying to get them to change their way of life? All he really needed to do was write a short note saying, "Just believe in Jesus and you're saved. Love, Paul."
-JackThe declaring that a certain group is a cult is not based on someones personal agenda or prejudices. It is based on a list of characteristics that are predetermined by historical, Biblical Christianity. Mormons are declared Cult by those characteristics. Most would agree that Walter Martin's book KINGDOM OF THE CULTS is a leading authority on cults. Pages 166 through 226 gives the Historical Perspective of Mormonism-The Latter-Day Saints. It is clearly a cult by those characteristics.
-drmdellisExample: Cults have human founders. They normally have extra-Biblical scriptures. They teach that they and they along have discovered some truth that no one else has. They have problems with the Diety of Christ (the teaching that Christ is God and has always been God) and lower Him to be just a good man. Their system is based on human goodness or works where the Bible clearly teachers the way to God is by grace or unmerited favor without human works. In other words man is totally depraved. Those are only a few but enough to make Mormonism a cult.
-drmdellisAmen. These and other extra-Christian teachers fulfill the prophesy that men will teach for doctrine the commandments of men.
-AliceLuther, Wycliffe, Tindale, Wesley, Calvin – all human founders of movements, many of which became churches. Most also wrote additional materials. Members of the LDS Church accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Redeemer. He is the Son of God, born of Mary, died on the cross and resurrected on the third day. No, not just a good man. Christ the Lord!
-JackAsk a Mormon how a woman gets to heaven. If they are honest you will be told by her husband not by Christ. Ask them if one day they hope to be a god just like Elohim God and if they plan to create millions of spirit babies on their own planet. Just a few comments more. The Book of Mormons was so riddled with total nonsense that it is hidden from all Mormons but a few. It has been changed over and over to cover its total disregard of facts. The "Family Oriented" Mormons lead the nation in teenage suicide and divorse. Perhaps from their teaching one feels they can never be worthy enough to be a good Mormon. They are universes away from traditional Christianity.
-drmdellisMormons also use the Boy Scouts as a recruiting tool by having the local troop meet at Mormon facilities with Mormon leaders. Be careful which Boy scout group your son gets involved with.
-Bob PegramHogwash!
-JackMormons think joseph smith, a false prophet has credibility.
Mormon:(they believe in a different jesus)
Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Mormon theology teaches:
* God was born and raised on another planet.
* He has a harem of wives.
* They produce spirit-babies that are sent to earth; there they gain bodies and earn sainthood.
* Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
* Jesus is the chosen/elected savior by a council of gods from other worlds.
* America is the promised land, not Israel. The holy city is Independence, Missouri, not Jerusalem. Jesus' latter-day agenda is to return to Missouri.
(This has NOTHING to do with christianity.)
http://www.equip.org/articles/the-book-of-mormon-…
-michaelle50Yes, Mormons do believe in a different Jesus, the real one. They believe he loves all people enough to give everyone a chance to make it back to heaven. They don't shut out children who die before baptism or aboriginal people who never even have a chance to hear of Jesus. They believe in a Jesus who loves all people enough not to stop talking to them two
-Jackthousand years ago. They believe in a Jesus who is a distinct individual, that when he was baptized he actually heard his
Father's voice and saw the sign of the dove -not some vaudeville side show, but a sign that the trinity is made up of three
people. They believe in a Jesus who actually is some place, not just floating in the clouds somewhere.
Jack, if you died tonight, do you believe that you would go to Heaven?
-kyfanExcellent points made on the above posts. Mormonism is indeed not Christianity. It is a cult which adopted a heretical form of Christianity that would be unrecognized by the Apostles and the early church fathers. It is the extra-revelation outside of God's word that should always give you a clue that the Mormons, like other cults, cannot be considered part of Christ's church. However, we should pray that Mormons will come to truth and leave their cult, as we must view this as a form of ignorance and apostasy. Many contemporary professing Christian churches and denominations, like the Episcopal church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Presbyterian Church USA(PCUSA), the United Methodist Church, have also abandoned orthodoxy, having ordained homosexuals and promoted same gender marriage, having a loose opinion of abortion, involved in mainly social activism and "diversity", and these churches are also no longer faithful to God's word, having become temples of Satan. On a good note, churches such as the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), many reformed churches, the Baptist churches, and many non-denominational bodies have been growing as God has drawn people away from these apostate false churches.
-John J FlanaganIt should be very obvious, although deceptively hidden by Mormons and their cult leaders, that Mormonism is a arrogant wave just as Islam is… infiltrate the highest offices and positions in government – nationally, States, and local. If people do not remove the blinders from their eyes and unstop their ears it will happen.
-WinstonWow. Having read the (so far) 17 comments posted to this thread was like a trip back in time—like when I went to Walter Martin’s Costa Mesa Bible study and heard all kind of nonsense. (drmdellis—those who agree that “Kingdom of the Cults” is authoritative on Mormonism are simply ignorant of Mormonism. For many years I have maintained that you can cite any page at random from that book dealing with Mormonism and I will show you a factual error on that page. When I demonstrated a few of them in person, he backtracked claiming that he wasn’t responsible for much of the information dealing with Mormonism and I needed to take my observations to “the Bodines.”) Where to start on all the misinformation?
“The Book of Mormons (sic) was so riddled with total nonsense that it is hidden from all Mormons but a few” (drmdellis) is my current favorite. The fact that the Book of Mormon is the LDS Church’s primary proselytizing tool given out by the thousands by over 50,000 missionaries each day means they’re not doing a very good job of hiding it—unless you’re referring to the first edition published in 1830. That’s probably hidden a little better since it isn’t usually free; but can be purchased through the LDS Church’s bookstore by anyone.
“Joseph Smith vehemently denounced ALL existing ‘churches’” (dau1776) Where do you get this stuff? I know that Joseph Smith wrote in his own history that God told him not to join any other Church because “they were all wrong; but does that really qualify as “vehement?” The idea that the LDS Church “changed its stance and beg[an] calling themselves [sic] another Christian denomination” is ludicrous. The stance hasn’t changed and Mormons have consistently and historically called themselves “Christian.” If you’d like to pick a year between 1832 and now, I’ll cite a Mormon publication referring to itself as Christian.
Bighoss, Otterson’s blog entry isn’t damage control. He’s responding to the same canard that people throw around on a daily basis—and is their poor attempt at special pleading. Pastor Jeffers (along with many others) is trying to redefine a commonly understood term in a narrow, restrictive, theological sense; which is basically dishonest. The vast majority of Americans understand the term “Christian” to be someone who believes in Jesus Christ. Consequently, when someone says Mormons aren’t Christians, they have to redefine the term as Jeffers did “theologically,” because without special pleading, the statement is false. If you want to redefine the term to mean “sharing fellowship” or “doctrinally compatible;” then you have another definition—one that doesn’t exist in a standard dictionary.
You could list lots of things that Otterson didn’t claim following your “Oh Yeah?” but they would be as irrelevant as what you did list. Mormons don’t claim doctrinal affinity with so-called orthodox Christianity. They do claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ and concede that anyone else who professes to believe in or follow Jesus of Nazareth qualifies as a Christian. In this situation, Mormons simply concur with the standard dictionary definition understood by the majority of English speaking people.
I would also disagree with your conclusion that Mormon doctrines regarding the nature of God and Man come from extra-biblical sources rather than the Bible. Mormons are very comfortable defending their theology from the Bible. Recently, a nationally recognized Christian theologian commented to me that it isn’t hard to arrive at the LDS concept of God without recognizing the alliance between Christian doctrine and classical philosophy. That’s the primary problem between so-called orthodoxy and LDS theology. We reject an alliance whose foundation is in philosophy rather than theology.
-AlmaAlma, you need to study up on what Brigham Young and other Mormon big shots have said about Mormonism and about Joseph Smith. I submit below a few choice items from various volumes of an official Mormon source, the Journal of Discourses and from other official Mormon sources. I have cited volumes and page numbers for your convenience:
From Brigham Young: .".. no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…. Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are … I cannot go there without his consent…. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven (vol. 7, p. 289).
Also from Young: … I am an Apostle of Joseph Smith…. all who reject my testimony will go to hell, so sure as there is one, no matter whether it be hot or cold … (vol. 3, p. 212).
I will now give my scripture—"Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God … that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Anti-christ … (vol. 8, p. 176).
From another official Mormon source:
In the History of the Church (vol.7, p. 287), Brigham Young claimed that "Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ."
Consider the astonishing egotism of Joseph Smith. The excerpt below is from The History of the Church, a MORMON source"
"I am a lawyer; I am a big lawyer and comprehend heaven, earth and hell, to bring forth knowledge that shall cover up all lawyers, doctors arid other big bodies." (vol. 5, p. 289).
Don't employ lawyers, or pay them for their knowledge, for I have learned that they don't know anything. I know more than they all (vol. 5, p. 467).
"I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my "right hand man" (vol. 6, p. 78).
"If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them…. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as 1, The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (vol. 6, pp. 408-9).
There is your false prophet and unabashed braggart, Alma, the greatest charlatan ever produced in this nation!
CONTINUED BELOW
-bighossCONTINUING from above:
As to the Mormon version of tolerance that you describe, Alma ("They do claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ and concede that anyone else who professes to believe in or follow Jesus of Nazareth qualifies as a Christian"), tell us how you can reconcile that with THIS?
1) The renowned Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: "The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters;…the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell…" (Pamphlets by Orson Pratt, p. 112).
2) From the third President of the Mormon Church, John Taylor: "…we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;…we in fact are the saviours of the world…" (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p. 163).
3) Brigham Young's claim (cited above) that "Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ."
According to this, only Mormons, among all who claim to be Christians, are truly Christians and the rest are "anti-Christ," since they do not confess that the false prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr. "lived and did as a Prophet."
4) .Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith stated (in Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, pp. 189-90) that there is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
If all non-Mormons are "anti-Christ," how can they be Christians? If there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith, how can anyone but Mormons be Christian? You can't erase or wish away these historically documented and radically exclusivist statements by a Mormon "Apostle" and Mormon "Prophets." Alma. They prove that Mormons do NOT, as you allege, "concede that anyone else who professes to believe in or follow Jesus of Nazareth qualifies as a Christian." They prove, in fact, the opposite of what you are claiming, unless you can submit proof that these documented statements from Mormon authorities have been rescinded by the Mormon Church!.
-bighossAlma, I see you chose an interesting username. I would think you would not want to draw attention to the false prophecy of Alma 7:10 — "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." As every schoolchild knows, Jesus was not born in Jerusalem. He was born in the "…little town of Bethlehem." That's why the Wise Men had to be sent away from Jerusalem to Bethlehem by Herod; he wasn't born there.
-Lewis H. Seaton IIII didn't choose the username; my parents gave it to me when I was born.
Do you seriously think that Mormons believe (or the Book of Mormon claims) that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem?
Whatever you might think of Joseph Smith, he wasn't idiot and was very familiar with the Bible. An examination of the text of the Book of Mormon dealing with "at Jerusalem" and English grammar demonstrates that this objection to Alma 7:10 is pretty vacuous. I've been swamped with other concerns, but I'd be happy to explain this further if you're interested.
-friulivenetoYes, I seriously think that the Book of Mormon prophesied that Jesus "…shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem…" Idiot was not a term I used. I'm saying that he was a false prophet, and that as such, none of what he has written should be listened to. I am always interested in truth.
-Lewis H. Seaton IIII know you didn't say he was an idiot. I'm saying that would be the natural implication if he didn't know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem–as is believed by all Mormons. A scholarly treatment of this issue can be found here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/tran… and I recommend highly that you check the footnotes. That article demonstrates that anciently, people referred to Jerusalem and its surrounding cities as the "land of Jerusalem." Even Jeremiah states that Nebuchadnezzar fought against Jerusalem "and all its cities." What were the cities of Jerusalem? Obviously, the cities under its rule.
-AlmaContinuing…
While that approach is certainly valid, I prefer one that deals with the diction of the Book of Mormon passage. It says that Jesus would be born "at" Jerusalem; it does not say, "in." The word "at" is less specific than "in" and connotes nearness or proximity rather than "within." If you wanted to meet someone "at the library" that person could reasonably wait for you outside the library in the parking lot; because "at" means "in the direction of" and "nearby" rather than "in." If you wanted to meet that person inside the library, you would be better served to say you'd meet "in the library." Similarly "at Jerusalem" connotes "in the area thereof" or "in the direction towards" rather than "inside the city."
By this I'm saying Joseph Smith wasn't a false prophet. He was directed by God and was as much a prophet as Isaiah or Moses or John the Baptist.
-AlmaContinuing…
-Lewis H. Seaton IIIMake a note of that point, "little." Micah 5:2 rightly prophecied (because Micah actually WAS a prophet of God), "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." Philippians 2:5-8 explains the reason Jesus came not to the capital of Israel as a conquering King the first time, but was born into the humble circumstances in a feeding trough for animals, to poor parents, in an unwalled shepherd's town too little to even be a clan of Judah. But why should this surprise us? He is the "bread of life" born in Bethlehem ("House of Bread").
Continuing again…
-Lewis H. Seaton IIIA quick look at your own footnote in the Book of Mormon referencing Luke 2:4, "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David [in order to register (vs. 5)]" would have given you a clue that something's wrong here. You'll further notice all the references in these real scriptures to Judah. You see, Jerusalem is not even in the "land of Judah" where Bethlehem is; it's in the land of Benjamin. In fact Herod killed all the baby boys in Bethlehem "and all its environs" (Matt 2:16). Jerusalem was a walled city beyond the "environs of" Bethlehem, not a "land." It was in the "land" of Benjamin in the "land" of Israel. No city or town in Scripture is ever referred to as a "land."
Furthermore, DNA has conclusively proven that none of the native Indians of North, Central, or South America are the decendants of any of the Israelites. They are genetically, culturally, and linguistically related to East Asians.
Continuing…
-Lewis H. Seaton IIISo what should we do? Jeremiah 14:14 diagnoses the problem, "The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds." This is not a new problem. Moses gave us the prescription 3,500 years ago: "And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." Throw out your Book of Mormon; do not listen to Joseph Smith.
To expound more on what Lewis has stated I add the following.
Unlike the fictious empires of the Nephites, Jeredites, Lamanites, other people groups mentioned in the Bible have left artifacts that archaeologist have been able to dig up and prove that they existed and that they built these ancient buildings. There is no evidence that the Nephite's ever existed in the America's. The civilizations of the central America's peaked between 600-900 AD which is well after the events described in the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormons states that the Lamanite empire annihilated the Nephite empire around 400 AD. The Lamanite empire is said to be the only one to have survived becoming (according to the Book of Mormon) the 'principle ancestors of the native American Indians'. And yet the DNA of the native American Indian has been traced back to east Asian people and not the remnants of the house of Israel as Mormon's have claimed. No evidence has been found of a culture originating in Israel traveling to the America's called the Lamanites, or Nephites. If there is no trace of them how do you reconcile that with the truth?
On the other hand, the Bible accounts for people groups that no longer exist today and yet there is tons of evidence of their existence that has been dug up, cataloged and archived. Such as the Canaanites and Philistines to name two.
It is impossible for an empire to have existed in the America's and not leave one trace of archaeology behind. Had the remnant of Israelites come to the America's they would have constructed buildings that were familiar to their architecture. Not the Aztec architecture. It logically does not make sense that they would start constructing buildings that were not familiar to them.
The permanent settlements named in the Bible that were established are still in existence today. Bethsaida, Chorazin, Jerusalem, Jericho, Bet She'an, Bethlehem, Caper naum, Be' er Sheva, City of David, Nazareth; just to name a few. But, there is not one city in the America's named in the Book of Mormon such as Nephi, Manti, Sidom, Jershon, Bountiful, that is in existence today nor is there any record of them outside of the Book of Mormon to prove that they ever existed. It is impossible for them to not leave any archaeological evidence behind. Not one anthropologist has ever found any evidence of these fictitious cities what-so-ever. If they had it would be public knowledge.
-CalvinThe bible has it own problems with a made up past. There is no proof that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or that the Exodus occurred.
-Jeff DixonThere is no proof that the Garden of Eden existed or that Adam and Eve existed. Whether there was even a person named Jesus is highly questionable.
-Jeff DixonActually you would be incorrect Jeff. There are and have been many people that have or had the name of Jesus. The thief and murderer that Pontius Pilate freed rather than Jesus Christ actually had the name of Jesus Barabbas. But since I know what your talking about I present the following to you rather than just stating something without giving citation so you can research it yourself.
The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the trustworthiness of the cannon of the Old Testament. They contain either the whole or portions, of every book in the Protestant Old Testament. Even still, there is enough evidence beyond the Garden of Eden to make it statistically highly unlikely that the Bible is anything other than historically correct.
As far as any proof that Jesus ever existed there is no reason to doubt that He did. Even the most liberal of scholars do not doubt the existence of Jesus Christ.
Not only does the Bible give evidence of Jesus’ existence (manuscript evidence) but there are historians (external evidence) that have records about Jesus, three of which are, Flavius Josephus, and Cornelius Tacitus, and Sunetonius Tranquillus. There is also the Dead Sea Scrolls (archaeological evidence) that date back to the time of Jesus.
There is in fact more manuscript evidence of the Bible than any other ancient writings. So much so that it dwarfs any of the others. If you like I can give you plenty of references to check on your own. Along with that the statistics of how the Bible came into being is highly unlikely as well.
Consider the following:
-CalvinThere is 66 books written by 40 different writers over the course of 1600 years and yet there is one unified storyline. The statistics of that is astounding.
Calvin,
Jeff's right that the Bible shares the same problems as the Book of Mormon–though to a lesser extent because of the historical continuity of civilizations that occupied Palestine. Your lapses in logic asserting what is impossible and what has been (or can be) proved through DNA, or what "logically" makes sense relies on a lot of supposition. You might also want to learn the difference between possessives and plurals before "expounding" too much.
-AlmaEvery time man sees the "problem" in the Word of God he is blind to his own ignorance.
-DespevilleOh Humpty, you need to realize that there is more to life than delusional concepts.
-Jeff DixonExactly. That is why you need to realize that the Book of Mormon is nothing but a construct of one man that has no manuscript evidence at all. That is the delusion. Where is the history? Where is the documents?
How is it that the Book of Mormon states in Mormon 9:32 that the language used in ancient America is reformed Egyptian and yet there is no such language? Hebrews scholars and linguist (unless they are a Mormon) will tell you that it does not ,nor did it ever exist. There is absolutely no record of it at all. There is not even a hint of Hebrew writing (reformed or otherwise) found in ancient American archaeology.
-CalvinI deduce from your comment that you are a Mormon. I am visited by young, earnest men often to try to wean me away from my absolute belief in Christ to adapt the Mormon teachings. When I explain that I already believe God and so would waste their time, they continue to try to convince me that what I believe is not enough. My advice to every one of those young men is "believe God." For every statement they make I simply ask them to believe God. Martin Luther realized at thirty-three that the doctrines he had espoused from his youth were wrong. A reading of God's Word showed him his error. I believe that if anyone, no matter what affiliation or lack thereof – atheists – if anyone opens the Word of God and reads it, they will be forced to deal with the teachings. One cannot go away unchanged after having looked into the perfect law of liberty.
-AliceOne will either accept God at His Word, or deny Him; but, one will not be able to ignore Him. The Bible teaches that God is not mocked. While people believe they are mocking Him with impunity, they will bow their knee to Jesus either here, on earth, to their eternal reward, or before the Throne of God, to their eternal damnation. No other answer.
-AliceThere are many different answers. However, the reality is that most religions make the same claim as you state Christianity does,
-Jeff DixonIt all boils down to one simple question we as voters have to concider and ask our self. Do we want to have a man with the poor and weak judgement as Mitt Romney has displayed, by allowing himself to be brain washed by the false and fraudulent Mormon religion, to be president of this great country, and leader of the free world. He proudly alignes himself with this illegitimate false religion and professes to personally believe in their doctrin. If we ignore this weakness and flawed reasoning by Romney then our judgement is no better than his.
-JessI have personaly done my due dilligence on this candidate and his Mormon religion and can not and will not vote for him due to this poor and weak judgement he has displayed.
It would not be a good thing if Mormon's based their belief in GOD on something other than the bible. It would be much like conveining a council some 300 years A.D. and putting aside the simple truths of the bible to create a GOD to fit the consensus of the day. If that were to happen, I would hope that somewhere down the line, the truth concerning the nature of GOD would be restored.
-Ben EEnter textAdam is their true God! According to doctrine……Adam sinned because he loved Eve so much that he needed to be with her. So he sinned and then he had to work his way back up to becoming a god. Their leader (I believe it was Bringham) said, "it is the duty of ever male Mormon to become like god"
This they do through good works etc.
Now would any of you worship a god who sinned? In this case he would be no better than you or me!
Ever wonder who else said,"In the day ye eat of it(the TKGE) ye shall become like gods" Go to Genesis and view this doctrine of Satan to Eve! Gen.3:5
"…There is nothing new under the sun".(as King Solomon said) Satan said the same to Eve and it was the biggest lie ever perpetrated! Satan fell from heaven because he said he would ascend to the upper most North to bring down God.Isa.14:14. He said he would become like the Most high God!
right here!
-CynEnteThey, the Mormons have successfully shed the title cult over the last 50 years.
They were always listed as such in books about cults! One such book is now out of print, The Chaos of the Cults by Jan Baalen. All dates and quotes from the meager beginning of this cult are quite revealing.
Bringham Young,"Adam is our god and the only god with which we have to do". When they refer to "Heavenly Father" it is the fallen Adam to whom they refer.
Smith was into the occult! He used diving stones in a hat with a peep hole to interpret the so called plates from Moroni!
It is out there folks! Why do you people dismiss things without any type of self research? This is why we have Obama in office!
-CynThe aim of Mormonism is to set up a theocracy!
Like the infamous Robes Pierre of old!( look it up people) They wait only for the time when "the Constitution hang's by a thread….." to step in. This from one of their prophets whose name escapes me now!
The error of most believers in whatever doctrine is that they swallow whole the kool-aid fed to them by leaders whose agenda is to rule over them and be gods to them. Most believers do not even know all that their Church teaches. If you point out the fallacies, instead of researching, they deny and get angry. Much like liberal voters, they do not want to be confused by facts. I was taught early in my walk with God that every doctrine taught from the pulpit should be studied by individuals and each believer must make the decision to believe the doctrine or not, based on what the Bible supports. I found that the best of my Pastors sometimes used a verse that did not prove their point. I disagreed with conclusions more than once. But, I have come through my life with a healthy faith that has been tried and tested.
-AliceNo, that is the error of all believers.
-Jeff DixonA really big Amen to you my sister!" Let God be true and every man a liar"
-CynJesus told us that the Hoky Spirit would reveal all thngs to us and that His sheep would hear His voice! We measure all things by the finished work of Jesus as the Christ. The author and the beginning of our salvation!
The Alpha and Omega!
"It is finished" were His words! Salvation begins and ends at the cross.
Salvation is a gift of God through Jesus Christ!
We walk in the works that God has preordained that we should walk in not as in keeping an account to please Him or gain entry by force into the kingdom through the window or roof top of the house!
We are conformed by the washing of the water of the word and our mind's are no longer at enmity with Him!
The Word of Jn 1:14 is who leads us not only in the letter but in spirit!
God Bless you! You have refreshed me this morning.
Enter text rigSo then we have three opposing forces at work! The Constitution, Islam and Mormonism!
Arm yourselves with truth people. Do not be so quick to condemn those who speak it as conspirators or one that misunderstands! Your very life may one day depend on it.
Any religion, cult or otherwise which twists and wrests the Scripture is likewise anathema! Jesus is the way truth and the life JN14:6 and no man will ever come to reconciliation except through Him! Salvation is a gift of God through Christ that must be accepted! This is all that is needful!ht here!
-CynAmen. The Bible says that the only way to Christ is through the front door. There is no back door, window or wall that one can scale to reach the Holy of Holies. Christ is the Word that gets us to an interview with God the Father. Without faith ( in Jesus) it is impossible to please God. I once asked an honest believer why he wanted to pray to saints who had gone on before him when he had access to the very throne of God with Christ sitting on the right hand of the Father? He had no reasonable reply – something about Christ being too busy and some saints understanding his condition better. The Word say we have a Savior who was in every way tempted like us without His sinning; an advocate who knows our infirmities. Why do people always complicate a simple issue?
-AliceBut what do they believe about the person and work of Christ – that is the acid test, not taking sacraments or being baptized or whatever else they want to throw out there.
-KnowTheTruthTodayOnes faith is only as good as the object of that faith. If Christ is our savior, we will be satisfied and will not seek another. If we constantly seek to improve on our belief system, it is obvious that our faith is in something or someone other than Jesus Christ. He said if we drink the living water, we will never thirst again. A thirsty people continue to seek salvation from another source – though many try to hitch their different water to the Christ who gave the true water.
-AliceMormons "jesus" is a BIG FALSEHOOD. They claim this guy saw a "vision" and got deceived by an angel of light Again they are a cult an think you are saved by works only rich is an abomination. Christ said not to be deceived by false teachers-joseph smith isn't even in the bible.
http://www.equip.org/articles/the-book-of-mormon-…
Mormon theology teaches:
-michaelle50* God was born and raised on another planet.
* He has a harem of wives.
* They produce spirit-babies that are sent to earth; there they gain bodies and earn sainthood.
* Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
* Jesus is the chosen/elected savior by a council of gods from other worlds.
* America is the promised land, not Israel. The holy city is Independence, Missouri, not Jerusalem. Jesus' latter-day agenda is to return to Missouri.
The mormon doctrine mocks the one true God. And are a cult-they haven't shedded that title and never will because they ignore the bible and have made up their own book-the book of mormon
-michaelle50I've seen the claim several times on this site that Mormons "ignore the Bible." Upon what basis do you make that assertion? While Mormons do accept other books into their canon of scripture, that hardly is reason to conclude that Mormons ignore the Bible. In their Sunday school classes Mormons study all their scriptures on a rotating four year schedule taking two of those years (half the time) to study the Old and New Testaments. Additionally, I teach New Testament in the Church's educational system for students enrolled in university classes. For the past 4 years my classes have been entirely limited to the New Testament. This semester I'm teaching the gospels. How can you assert that we "ignore the Bible?"
-friuliveneto(Quote by LDS President Gordon B. Hinkley; April 2002 General Conference)
As a church, we have critics—many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge, is not based on ancient tradition… Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation…
Who is the "prophet in this dispensation"? The false prophet Joseph Smith of course. If then Mormon faith is not based on ancient tradition (which is where Christianity originated from) then why do you say you adhere to the precepts of the Holy Bible? The Book of Mormon even states in the introduction that it is comparable to the Bible but it is not. It is pure fiction. It has not basis in ancient history. It was written merely by one man based on his account and his alone with no witnesses.
If the prophets of old are not to be discredited (as stated by G.B. Hinkley) then you cannot say that you teach truthfully from the Bible.
-CalvinIt's always interesting to note the ellipses–those dots that tell us you left something out. People tend to shorten quotes when the additional information isn't pertinent to their point. But it's always fun to see when those elided words erode your thesis. Hinckley claimed that Mormon theology isn't tied to tradition borne of the debates and the unbiblical and uninspired conclusions that brought us the creeds. You left out: "the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ." He then explained that Joseph Smith's understanding of God came from personal experience rather than debate and compromise. Again, what you left out was pivotal: "who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision."
Joseph Smith discredited only the false extrabiblical concepts. Otherwise, you could point to a passage of scripture and say, "This is contradicted by Joseph Smith."
-AlmaOne man, no witnesses. You accept the word of one man as an absolute? I think it is quite arrogant to think that will suffice as unquestionable proof that he and only he spoke to God. No evidence of any kind leads to healthy and much needed skepticism.
-CalvinAny mormon I have met, as there are two in my family, the Mormon Book and the other mormon books trumphs the bible and has final say. This is what I'm talking about. They 90-100% of the time quote from their mormon books and may mention Jesus twice a year. Instead all I hear about is a benign joseph smith which is a heretic.
-michaelle50At the end of the day the question is, which is worse, having a muslim-friendly president or a Mormon? Both are pretty terrible for the future of America. Neither know anything about the God of the bible. Neither is regenerated. Neither is courageous enough to declare that there is only one true faith and one God, and that all other gods – including Allah and the god of the Mormons – whoever he is? – are man-made idols.
-Richardhttp://www.equip.org/articles/the-book-of-mormon-…
If mormons would stop the falsehood of claiming to be christians they would help themselves out. Their not anymore christian than a hindu or a muslim. If mormons would honor the bible as the final authority and eliminate a mere man joseph smith from their heart it would be a night and day difference.
-michaelle50(An LDS person who converted to Christianity-thank God.)
LDS-
if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 32).
The LDS are told by their leaders to believe things such as this and they DO NOT QUESTION IT. If the bible says something different it MUST be a translation error and cannot be trusted.
I was raised LDS and it was quite a struggle to get out. First step, disobey Journal of Discourses val 6 p. 32. Start questioning beliefs. Gain a true testimony of the bible and test what the Prophet and leaders say by the Word of God. Not test the Word of God by what the Prophet and Apostles say. The LDS have it backwards.
The fact that LDS believe Lucifer and Jesus are brothers is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.
-michaelle50Source(s):
LDS 20 years converted to Christian. Praise be to God!
What a bunch of nonsense. Do you realize that the Journal of Discourses is a work that has never been published by the LDS Church?
-Alma