Using Christianity to Justify Killing
I’ll admit I’m a sucker for stories about the malleability of human morality. From the mob movies, where a guy can whack his cousin but better not show his Patron any “disrespect,” to justice-seeking serial killers like “Dexter,” there’s plenty of justified violence to be found.
Where do such seemingly contradictory value systems come from? And do they actually happen in the real world today?
How about the politician who claims a platform that values a respect for “all life,” while justifying war and advocating for capital punishment? Or those who celebrate the death of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein? And the list goes on.
It’s common in western culture to objectify the Islamic faith, cherry-picking texts from their scripture and plucking choice sound-bytes from extremist leaders, to portray the whole of the religion as inherently violent. This, in turn, is employed to justify violence in-kind, or worse, preemptive violence, as in the case of our invasion of Iraq.
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The Crusades were a response to the muslims invading the Holy Lands
-David in MAin a march to conqure the then known world, not unlike many other cultures,
however, the pope objected……..the rest is history.
This story is ridiculous. Whoever wrote it knows little about Christianity. Love is about blood, the shed blood of Jesus, and that’s what redeems us who deserve to have our own blood shed.
-Bob WaiteJesus taught kindness and peace, plain and simple.
-davesYou obviously do not know the Jesus in Revelation, where HE will return as a "warrior King" to destroy all those who have come against Israel and who murdered the Christian 'saints'. Read and know God's Word for knowledge, understanding, and applied wisdom.
-WinstonSuch ignorance of "word" definition is unbecoming of an educated person. "Killing" is not against God's law, but "murdering" is. Do you know the difference?
-WinstonThe pervasive shallowness and irrationality of that article make me wonder why Zionica even for a moment considered posting it here.
-bighossWow, it must be amateur hour on Zionica.com …two amazingly ignorant “commentaries” in one day (the other being “Jesus versus the GOP”).
-KenWhat a poor premise for an article. Where's the beef? Where are examples of real Christians who are killing or doing violence in our society, or ANY OTHER society worldwide because they are Christians?? There is some implication that it is somehow a legitimate issue based on… wait… a TV series about a serial killer. If that doesn't work let's trot out Timothy McVeigh (not a confessed Christian), and then there is always the "Phineas Priesthood" (more than likely a front group for some three letter agency who can create mayhem in the name of God — the exact definition of blasphemy). Where are people who actually claim to be Christians, with Christ as their savior, who are performing hate crimes against gays (other than inviting them to accept Christ)?
-StepWhere oh where could these examples be of Christians killings others or doing violence?
* Aided by Serbian guerrillas in Croatia, Milosevic's forces invaded in July 1991 to 'protect' the Serbian minority. In the city of Vukovar, they bombarded the outgunned Croats for 86 consecutive days and reduced it to rubble. After Vukovar fell, the Serbs began the first mass executions of the conflict, killing hundreds of Croat men and burying them in mass graves.
*The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India, has been described as engaging in terrorist violence motivated by their Christian beliefs.[12] It is classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, and has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity.[13][14] The insurgency in Nagaland was originally led by the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN), and it is continued today by a faction named "NSCN–Isaac Muivah", which explicitly calls for a "Nagalim for Christ".
-Jeff Dixon* Uganda: The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, and forced child labour as soldiers, porters, and sex slaves.[48] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian and Islamic beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism,[49][50] it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[page needed][51][51][52][53] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle
-Jeff DixonJeff WOW, you grasping and very desperate,WOW when are you going to grow up.
-DaveThese pretty much fit the bill of deviant groups (described in my part 2 post below) that have nothing to do with real Christianity or its teachings, but are more than happy to falsely hide behind religion to garner at least a modicum of support. Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world". He taught his followers to love their enemies and to pray for those who persecute them.
In the days when the Bible was in Latin so that nobody knew what Christ really said the church did take great liberties, (e.g. the Inquisition) but with the distribution of the Bible anyone who practices any of these behaviors cannot in any way, shape, or form, present a valid claim to be a true believer or to represent Christ or Christianity.
-SteveNo, that pretty much fits how Christians have acted during the last 2000 years. It is easy to claim that the people who act this way are not real Christians except that they are only following the examples of the bible.
Of all the ideas about the bible, the concept that God is against killing people is one of the funniest. God is always telling us to kill other people. It is his "go to" response when he gets upset.
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
And let us dispense with the idea that these are OT rules and that Jesus provided a new path. But Jesus did away with the OT, they will mutter.
Since Jesus is god and created the universe, that means he is the god of the OT who created the OT laws. This is especially relevant since he emphatically stated he did not come to do away with the OT laws.
In Matthew 5:17 He begins answering their unspoken questions: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets." In effect He was telling them: "If you think I came to destroy the law or prophets, you are not thinking clearly." He makes it plain that anyone who thought He was abolishing the law or prophets was mistaken. He assures them of His respect for God's law: "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
In Matthew 5:18 Jesus validates this perspective when He adds, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." As long as heaven and earth exist, Jesus said, we can be sure God's law will exist.
-Jeff DixonJeff, I must say you have an impressive grasp of specific commandments in the Old Testament. You are also more enlightened then many Christians on the fact that even Paul agreed wholeheartedly with Christ that nothing of the Torah passes away until Heaven and Earth pass away. The thing is that you must read the entire Torah in full context. Any death penalty requires two witnesses and a qualified presiding authority, specifically the Sanhedrin (the eldership of Israel) to act as the ultimate judges. That body was disbanded in about the 4th or 5th century.
For Christians there is a deeper reality to the Torah that is much misunderstood, and the discussion would be way too long for this forum. That reality is that there is a much higher spiritual/metaphorical meaning behind every commandment, but it must be seen in context of the face that Christ, the author of the Torah, put on it, which is love. The whole purpose of His first coming was to reconcile mankind to himself by removing barriers that had come through rebellion.
-StevePart 2: That the author has to go to such extremes to find such little substance to support the basis for this ill-conceived article is an indicator that it is yet another falsely based attack on Christianity itself. Of course there are xenophobes within every culture, and certainly those who brazenly wrap themselves in religious garb without any adherence to the principles and teachings that go along with it. I don't see any scintilla of evidence that this is any type of real world issue, and certainly not a growing one, even if it is being employed as a weird (unfounded) plot twist in TV and movies from time to time.
Here's an idea for the author: find out who, around the world, is killing whom in the name of religion and write an article about that. It probably wouldn't make the Huffington Post, though, because that might have the appearance of pro-Christian bias.
-StepSteve, once an apostate is to be in ignorance of God's full Word. Such an education you need.
-WinstonNow Jeff, you know that Christ or God could have absolutely no affect on the violence to which you accredit to someone you don't believe exists. People can profess to be Christian, and still do violence. That doesn't make them Christians. It's like the Mafia hits, then off to Mass. Of course if you don't believe in the existence of God, what does it matter to you in whose name the violence was committed?
-SargeE5See my response to Steve above.
-Jeff DixonChristians can do anything unbelievers can do. We are all born with a sin nature and we have volition as to whether we allow it to control our life or not. Christians who learn what the Bible teaches and apply it to their lives will not allow their sin nature to control them through the power of the Holy Spirit.
-msjallenRead 1 John 1:8-10
So Christians that kill in the name of Christ are not real Christians, because real Christians, unlike real Moslems and Jews, don't do that.
-Steve03If you want to find Scripture to justify killing you can easily find it, not only in the Old Testament but even in the Gospels. All you have to do is rip a couple of verses out of context, reassemble them as a "holy jigsaw puzzle," and start shooting, bombing, and burning all those who disagree with your reading of the mind of God.
WOW your desperate searching and have No clue.WOW!
-Dave"WOW" isn't much of a rebuttal. "Jesus said . . . I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! . . . I came not to send peace, but a sword . . . let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one . . . That thou doest, do quickly." "the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire"
-Steve03Real Muslims are told that it is good to kill infidels, both in the Koran as well as the Haditha (the oral teachings of Mohammed and key Muslim authorities). Not once but many times. Beheading is specifically mentioned and even commanded. Islam is not, as we are told by the likes of CAIR and othe PR front groups, a religion of peace; it is very much a religion of hatred, starting with self (because the only way to assure a place in heaven is to die a martyr's death), then extending to everyone else.
I personally have a deep love for the people of Iran specifically because my father and grandfather served as Presbyterian ministers, my grandfather for the majority of his life. Thus I have not arrived at this conclusion lightly but based on much study. You might want to check out some of the books or videos from Joel Richardson. There are others but that is a start.
-SteveWhy not read the Koran itself? You'll find its no more bloody minded than Kings and Chronicles. And in Islam the human problem isn't original sin but forgetfulness. And it is written that at the final judgement even the infidels will be saved if they have even the smallest spark of goodness in their hearts.
-Steve03You're making the usual bigot's mistake of comparing our best to their worst . . .
Okay, Kings and Chronicles is simply a history of what real people did, no punches pulled. Those books are primarily negative examples of what God Himself hates. The actual instructions, allegedly from "god" in the Koran can be interpreted according to the ways that best serve the purveyors of that religion, which has cherry-picked truths from the Old and New Testaments, added Arab traditions and teachings, many of pagan origin, to turn the truths of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob on their head. You must allow Mohammed himself to interpret the Koran and he does so to full effect in the Haditha, which most non-Muslims do not even know about. That is the dirty little secret Muslims prefer not to share. Once you get into the details there is no getting away from the fact that every Muslim believes that in the final days they will be called to kill every Jew and Christian on earth who does not swear allegiance ot Allah.
-SteveI wrote a detailed response last night that never made it to this thread, and have no time or inclination to re-create it, but you indubitably would have been fully convinced by the sheer brilliance of the argument (kidding, of course).
Suffice it to say that Kings and Chronicles are… chronicles (historical descriptions of past events). They are written with a prophetic insight that, by points of emphasis, shows the terrible behavior of the best/highest of men (kings) as examples to eschew, NOT to emulate. These actions are what God hates. Tell me, are the recent honor killings in Canada of a father and mother killing their three daughters because they "forgot" something or were they, in fact, being fully in submission to their teachings?
Next time a Christian beheads someone, plants a bomb, hijacks a plane, or kills their family because they think their "god" or his "prophet" commanded it let me know. This god of theirs has 99 names, two of which are "the greatest deceiver" and "the most proud one". They can keep any god who would crown himself with those appelations. Better yet, forget the b*st*rd and find a God who cares.
-SteveNO one will be saved unless they have believed in Jesus Christ as their savior otherwise He might as well not died on the cross for all mankind.
-msjallenI John 5:11-13 And this is the deposition, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13These things I have written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 1:20-21 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Steve03 — Christ was talking very pointedly about spiritual workings he was about to trigger in the earth and, yes, there is a connotation of spiritual violence, but that must be taken in context with all of Christ's teachings. He was talking about the spiritual sword, which is His Word. That sword does violence to the darkness of tyranny of all types and bears the fruit of freedom and liberty, setting free captives of all kinds to, of their own free will, become His servants who worship Him in spirit and in truth. I think most all would agree that there are some "trees" (meaning systems of man) that really should be thrown into the fire.
-SteveSo even you are ready to read Jesus' words as an incitement to violence! "If gold rust, what hope has iron?" Weaker minds can see — and often have seen — those words as a call to murder, terrorism, and genocide. And we've had preachers who have encouraged them to do so.
-Steve03The last thing I want is for the God to whom I pray to remain disinterested or passive in the face of the corruption and violence that has started to become pervasive in this society and around the world. As Christ said, His followers are NOT to battle flesh and blood but rather (through prayer and humble faith) the systems of evil that would put mankind into prisons of their own making. Too many to name here but I hope you get my meaning. I don't want anyone dead, but I would like to see a lot of the perverse influences on our society (pornography, bribery, sex traders, etc, etc. etc.) dashed on the rocks.
I'm out of here, thanks for the conversation.
-SteveIs a surgeon violent when he takes a scalpel to cut out a cancerous tumor that would have otherwise killed the patient? This is the violence Christ is talking about, but done by HIM, not in some fleshly action by those who claim to be his followers. And if someone claims to be a surgeon but is an impostor do we blame the entire medical profession for that person's fraudulent lies and misdeeds? I thank God that His grace protects us from the unpreventable depredations of the weak minded among us.
-SteveHe is violent when he takes a scalpel to cut out an imaginary tumor. And that is what religion is doing. It is promoting delusion as reality.
-Jeff DixonI started to point out some realities in my post directly above, but this is probably the point where we have to part ways. Neither can argue the other what is real and what is a delusion. If God Himself, the YHWH of the Bible (and not some other entity that calls itself god) is an illusionary fantasy then you are correct, but then everything in this "reality" of ours ultimately has no meaning or purpose, and the only difference between mankind and the animals are our opposing digits and an infinite ability to rationalize a set of ethics for every occasion, knowing all the while that Darwinian "survival of the fittest" trumps everything. I like my reality better and believe that there is a purpose for mankind far beyond the best we can imagine. I also see the body politic riddled with cancers that have felled many a civilization before us. We either roll over for the inevitable personal and societal demise that surely await us or believe that a Higher Power can save us from our own actions.
-SteveI posted a response to this but it disappeared. If it miraculously reappears like two that were posted last night then there really must be a god (or at least a site administrator who fancies himself as such).
-SteveWow is about all that Dave can muster.
-Jeff Dixon