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fawltytowers

Rejecting the religion of secularism

From the title of Russell Blackford's response, I can tell that we agree on at least one thing: Fawlty Towers was a brilliant television series. I suspect we agree on a few other things as well, such as the wisdom of the separation of church and state – but before we get to the agreement, there are some misunderstandings that need to be cleared up.

Blackford is right that, in his original piece, he did not explicitly claim that the wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were resolved at the time by introducing secularism, which was a much later development. But he must have had some reason for beginning his piece with the tale of the religious wars. The heroes of the piece are Hobbes and Locke, who were "deeply troubled by the experience of religious strife." The solution Locke and Blackford offer to the problem of religious strife is secularism, the privatization of otherworldly religion so that public policy may deal with purely mundane matters.

The idea that I challenged in my response is not that Christians and Christian churches were involved in these wars. Of course they were, and it marks a severe failure of Christians to be faithful to the Gospel admonitions against violence. What I challenged was the idea that the cause of the violence was "religion," understood as an essentially otherworldly impulse that had illegitimately gotten mixed up with mundane concerns.

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  • daves

    Too often us Christians fail to be faithful to the Gospel admonitions against violence. Jesus taught pacifism.

    • msjallen

      No, He did not…
      I Chron 5:22 For many fell slain, because the war was of God and they settled in their place until the exile.
      Isaiah 37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men arose early in the morning, behold, all of these were dead.
      Ps 144:1 Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;
      Psalm 18:33-34 He makes my feet like hinds' feet, and sets me upon my high places. He teaches my hands to war (beast barracks), so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze. The breaking of weapons is a sign of the breaking of the enemy.
      Psalm 144:1 Being happy is the LORD, my strength, who trains my hands to hold weapons in combat, and my fingers for battle (draw up the plan);
      Luke 22:36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

      • daves

        What do any of those quotes have to do with what Jesus taught and in what way do they encourage us to be violent?

        • msjallen

          Only to prove to you that Jesus Christ was not a pacifist and believed in defending ourselves. Jesus Christ is the "angel of the Lord" in the OT and if He taught to go into battle and defeat our enemies then He would not have changed that in the NT. We are to have guns today to protect us just like He said to buy a sword in His day. I don't believe that Jesus Christ expects us not to protect ourselves, our family, our homes, our country and yet it takes violence to do so in most cases.

          • daves

            Then what is the point of the Sermon on the Mount?

            MATTHEW 5-7 (King James Bible Clarified New Testament)

            5:38 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

            5:39 But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

            5:40 And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloak also.

            5:41 And whosoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two.

            5:42 Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you turn you not away.

            5:43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.

            5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you, and persecute you;

          • msjallen

            When Jesus Christ was teaching on earth, He was presenting His Messiahship as part of the OT. So when He taught the Sermon on the Mount including the so called “Lord’s Prayer” it was in this context and nothing in that prayer can be answered today. He knew that Israel would reject Him for they just wanted to be out from under the rule of Rome.
            •They have the fulfillment of the Eschatology of Israel related to the time of the Hypostatic Union: the incarnation, the 1st Advent not the Church Age.
            •The Gospels are transitional and a dividing line because of the HU and the anticipation of the Church Age.
            •The Christian way of life had not been taught in the OT. We have the Epistles that use the principles that Jesus and the OT taught in certain areas that carried over to the Church Age.
            •The OT is filled with prophecies of His 1st and 2nd Advent as well as principles for us to live by but we are not under the Law.
            For living the Christian way of life believers today think in terms of morality, the Mosaic Law. The Sermon on the Mount (is for the Millennium) and none of these things are remotely related to the CWL in the Church Age.

          • daves

            It sounds to me like you are trying to twist scripture to justify violence.

          • msjallen

            That is your opinion — but Jesus was NOT a pacifist.

          • Chris P

            See – you guys cannot agree. It's laughable.

          • Myrtlelinder

            I do wish I could explain why some the scriptures seem to disagree with each other. I do not believe that they really disagree. Different scriptures relate to different times and situations. I feel like if each of us, studies the WORD OF GOD and fit out lives to it, the best we can, put evil down evil when possible, we will be living according to GOD'S WORD. If we will allow HIM, he will give us the words and actions that we need, with everything which comes up in our lives. There is one scripture which does not fit my nature in the least, " A soft answer turns a way wrath." Nevertheless I struggle to make it my motto, because i know it is correct. Another thing I have trouble is, telling people when they are wrong, you know like in "Miss Know It All." We all need to know how to to get our point across without being an "offensive know it all." Another thing we cannot do anything about, is our short comings, unless we recognize them and admit them. When we do that we can begin to work to overcome them. We must give each other the right to their own opinion, if we think it is wrong try a effective and non offensive way to point it out. Remember we need to do this in love, not in spiteful, show off way. REMEMBER, WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST

        • evermyrtle

          We all come up short of "THE GLORY OF GOD" No need to try to fool yourself into thinking you are doing HIS will all of the time. If you want to live for HIM read Matthew 22:36-46 and obey that scripture . It will lead you the right way.

  • Chris

    Funny that you want to reject the "religion of secularism" when each of the religious sects have rejected the several thousand other religions. If you people could agree on one religion you might sound sane but you are clearly not thinking straight.

    Anyway secularism is not a religion. No prayers, no god, no places of worship where we say non-prayers.

    • Esteban Cafe

      Chris, recall that the "Religion of Secularism" spawned Communism and has killed only 100 million (let's give it another chance!). It's also responsible for the psuedo-science that spawns so many silly results with the crowing achivement of Global Warming. Who believes so called scientists anymore? Yes, it's a religion. And Al Gore is in his corner, losing his religion.

      Science is for sale every bit as much as most of the churches the writers belong to. "Follow the money" has application to both Science & most elements of Christianity. To look for truth in either is a dicey proposition.

    • A. Reginald

      Secularism is not a religion – give me a break. Secularism has a sacrament – it's called ABORTION! And it has a place of worship – the altar of SELF, which is also its deity.
      .

      • Chris P

        Liar. It has nothing to do with atheism. Abortion is something that only happens to women.

        You people are really nasty jerks.

  • evermyrtle

    I have e not a clue who would believe there were any Christian wars before 0001, before CHRIST was born, because that is where the word, 'Christian came from. There were anti-GOD peoples who fought against GOD'S people, true, all down through the ages but they were not.Christian wars. Read your bible. King David was likely the greatest warrior to ever live. HE was a man chosen by GOD to fight against HIS the enemies of HIS people

    • daves

      You are correct, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

      Has someone done that?

    • Esteban Cafe

      Not true. All OT Biblical references to God concern Christ.

      • Myrtlelinder

        Read Acts 11: 26 And when they found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church and taught much people.and the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

  • KnowTheTruthToday

    Yep, all the anti religious guys are all on the same page – don't you know.

    • Chris P

      Yes unlike the religious who cannot figure out which religion is the right one.

      You claim an inerrant bible and god but cannot agree, it's silly.

  • A. Reginald

    Jesus was Not a pacifist. Remember; He took a whip to the traders in the Temple courtyard and cleared them out!

    • Chris P

      Nasty violent person. Just like his "imaginary" father who killed off 20,000 innocent Japanese last year because he created a badly built planet. Why do worships a clown who "blesses" the Duggars with yet another child to overpopulate the planet and then kills it off.

      • Myrtlelinder

        Chris P. Romans 14: 10-13
        10: Why dost thou judge thy brother, or why dost thou set at nought thy brother. for we shall all stand before thy judgment seat of CHRIST (clown)
        11: For it is written, As I live, saith the LORD, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to GOD.
        12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to GOD.
        13: Les not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

  • MontieR

    First and foremost there NEVER was separation of church and state. The fourth amendment clearly states the federal government can't force a religion by law.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

    READ the second part of the sentence. There is NOTHING saying we can't have religion any were we please including state, government or private property.

    We have allowed a FEW reprobate minds to hijack our country and way of life get OFF your pew and stand against this evil.