1st century New Testament fragment found - ZIONICA.com

millergroup2

I guess we will just have to wait until they publish their findings. Interesting though.

Myrtlelinder

Hebrews 2:9, 14-18
9. But we see JESUS, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that HE by the GRACE OF GOD, should taste death for every man.

14. For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, HE also HIMSELF likewise took part of the same; that through death HE might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;
15. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage
16. For verily HE took not on HIM the nature of angels; but HE took on HIM the seed of Abraham.
17. Wherefore, in all things it behoved HIM to be made like unto HIS brethren, that HE might be a merciful and faithful high priest int hing pertaining to GOD, to make reconciliation for the sins of of the people
18. For in that HE HIMSELF hath suffered being tempted, HE is able to succor them tat are tempted

StarrWulf

well.. since it was found in egypt, that puts a damper on things (since it was home of the gnostics and most of the falsifications of the new testiment). It does show mark was written early on. I am surprised there isnt more talk about the mark fragment dated to 40ad

guest

Maybe that is the real significance, here. As the gnostics came later, this should help clear up some of those heretical ideas.
Steve03

Why not more talk about the fragment dated to AD 40? Because you really have to stretch the evidence to assert that the fragment found at Qumran (7Q5) really is a fragment of the Gospel of Mark. The fragment consists of only 20 letters, spread over five lines of text. It contains only one undisputed word (kai = "and" ) and 6 undisputed letters. And even if you choose to read all of the 16 disputed letters to match the letters of Mark 6:52-53, you have to change two letters in our existing texts of Mark to get a match. Furthermore, 80% of the possible dates within the 100-year span (50 BC-AD 50) assigned to 7Q5 would date the fragment to before AD 30, which would mean it's a fragment of something else. Computer studies have identified at least 16 other matches for the text, mostly with books of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT).
- Bobseeks
  
  One must realize when reading and replying to steve03's nonsense is that he is not a Christian, he is an adherent of li(e)beral theology and the lies of the Jesus seminar. Years ago satan took several "theologians" under his wing and put it in their hearts that the Bible was a lie that needed to be "corrected" and "interpreted" by them. The "theology" these devils concocted is known today as "li(e)beral theology" and its bastard, demon child is the social gospel. Liebrals like steve03 assert that the Bible is false, that Jesus is not GOD, that He was just a good man, that miracles do not occur, and that the resurrection never happened. Lieberals use the lies of social gospel to justify everything from abortion to welfare to sexual perversion to big government to just about every evil we see in the world today. Be aware of what he is when you read his trash and the damage his kind has caused to the Church and to society.
  - msjallen
    
    Bob, you are right and even though there are 5000 variations of the original manuscripts closest to the autograph that was written by the original writers (everything else is a copy) not one of those variants makes one difference in the theology of the scriptures. God has protected His Word through the ages…
    Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.
    2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy (Biblical knowledge) was ever made by an act of human will (design, purpose), but men were carried along by the Holy Spirit who spoke from God.
    - Bobseeks
      
      True, the authenticity of the Bible has been proven time and time again and yet there are still fools that believe the lies of the lieberal atheists.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Those darn liberal atheists. You need to listen to the Conservative Atheists.
    - Steve03
      
      How do you know those verses are accurate? The existence of the autorgraphs and the idea that God has protected his word are both based on extra-Biblical assumptions (that is, on human reason0, which by your own standards of proof are inadmissible. Or, to put it in terms you might have some hope of understanding, YOU LIE.
    - Bobseeks
      
      We all know who and what you are steve03 – a lying, lieberal liar who denies the teachings of Scripture in order to push the lie of satan's social gospel. You try to cover your agenda to destroy Christianity with psuedo-erudition and sophism, but you are nothing more than another of satan's ignorant, deluded, sorry little pimps. You do nothing but flatter me when you condemn me.
    - Despeville
      
      We know by the evidence of almost 5900 hundred manuscripts coming from different geographical locations, different copyist, different times and different cultures yet allowing for minor copying mistakes virtually saying the same truth. It is called science of textual criticism you would do well if you would research that Steve. There is nothing like NT or ST in the recorded history of humanity. Nothing comes even close.
    - msjallen
      
      Steve03 there is no way I can agree with your comments; my God is all powerful and can accomplish anything.
      If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. I Tim 6:3-4
    - msjallen
      
      And, Steve03, I am not on these comments to argue the Bible; only to make comments. There are many on this site who do not agree with me and I don't agree with them but find it interesting to read their comments.
      For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7-11
keyboardshark

"There are more than 4,000 different ancient Greek manuscripts containing all or portions of the New Testament that have survived to our time. These are written on different materials. (Papyrus and Parchment)

In addition to the actual Greek manuscripts, there are more than 1,000 copies and fragments of the New Testament in Syria, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic, and Ethiopic, as well as 8,000 copies of the Latin Vulgate, some of which date back almost to Jerome's original translation in 384 400 A.D.

A further witness to the New Testament text is sourced in the thousands of quotations found throughout the writings of the Church Fathers (the early Christian clergy [100-450 A.D.] who followed the Apostles and gave leadership to the fledgling church, beginning with Clement of Rome (96 A.D.).
It has been observed that if all of the New Testament manuscripts and Versions mentioned above were to disappear overnight, it would still be possible to reconstruct the entire New Testament with quotes from the Church Fathers, with the exception of fifteen to twenty verses!" http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.h…
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Let me be very specific. No one knows who actually wrote the gospels. This is not an opinion of mine, but a well established fact. "It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous." -Dr. Craig L. Blomberg, The Case for Christ. Therefore, instead of it being one of the disciples who wrote about Jesus, it can just as easily be some unknown believer. Now, even if someone copies this accurately thousands of times, it does not change the reality that there is no way to know if the information was accurately written about in the first place.
  
  The gospels do not agree with each other. Contrary to the often repeated comment that this proves they are true, what it shows is that the people who wrote the gospels are not reporting an event that they all saw, they are reporting their view about what they heard about the event. This also gives evidence that the writers were not the disciples, but unknowns.
  - Despeville
    
    "..No one knows who actually wrote the gospels…"
    
    None except Craig Blomberg and you numboid…
    
    "..it can just as easily be some unknown believer…"
    
    It can easily be who it says it was…
    
    ".. there is no way to know if the information was accurately written about in the first place. "
    
    There is no rational case nor proof to assert that it was not…
    
    This also gives evidence that the writers were not the disciples, but unknowns."
    
    Do you have any proof for that? :)
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      The Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures– the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]
      
      Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament– like those discovered at Nag Hammadi– are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]
      http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider the low life expectancy of humans in the first century. According to the religious scholar, J.D. Crossan, "the life expectancy of Jewish males in the Jewish state was then twenty-nine years." [Crossan] Some people think this age appears deceptive because of the high infant mortally rates at birth. However, at birth the inhabitants of the Roman Empire had an even lower life expectancy of around twenty-five years. [source] According to Ulpian, a Roman jurist of the early third century C.E., the average life expectancy at birth came even lower to around twenty-one. [Potter] Of course these ages represent averages and some people lived after the age of 30, but how many? According to the historian Richard Carrier: "We have reason to believe that only 4% of the population at any given time was over 50 years old; over age 70, less than 2%.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      And that is under normal circumstances. But the Gospels were written after two very devastating abnormal events: the Jewish War and the Neronian Persecution, both of which would have, combined, greatly reduced the life expectancy of exactly those people who were eye-witnesses to the teachings of Jesus. And it just so happens that these sorts of people are curiously missing from the historical record precisely when the Gospels began to be circulated." [Carrier] Even if they lived to those unlikely ages, consider the mental and physical toll (especially during the 1st century) which would have likely reduced their memory and capability to write. Moreover, those small percentages of people who lived past 50 years were usually wealthy people (aristocrats, politicians, land and slave owners, etc.). However, the Gospels suggest that the followers of Jesus lived poorly, and this would further reduce the chances for a long life span.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      "… According to the religious scholar, J.D. Crossan,…"
      
      HAhahahahahaahaha Crossan is as much of a "scholar" as you are Dixon and the rest of your junk follows.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Your disdain for someone who disagrees with you does not prove that anything they wrote is incorrect.
    - Bobseeks
      
      Your slavish, mindless devotion to liars who agree with you does not prove that what they wrote is correct.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      And calling them a liar does not prove they lied. Do you have any substance to go along with your rant?
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Crossan is a joke in scholarly circles even between wacko liberals and you referring him just show how unreasonably and irrationally skeptical you are.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Says the man who believes in a sky daddy.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      I have The Father while you have a destroyer whether you believe in him or not is completely meaningless just as your rebellion is.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      No, you have your delusion, while I have reality.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Nope. You had realty…
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      I do own real estate, that is true.
    - http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville
      
      You own nothing, not even your own life. You just temporarily hold to things which will be either removed from you or you will be removed from them.
    - Dave
      
      By who standers that you had reality there Jeff. As I see i,IF billions people and they come to know you would say that your the one who is delusion. And you DO NOT HAVE proof to say those billions of people are the ones that is delusion.
      But they can come and say that they do Have the proof, but you flat out will not except the proof, which makes you the delusion person. So don't worry Jeff they will take care of you.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Goodness man, that is another mouthful of mush. By whose standards? Well, certainly not yours, for your butchery of English demonstrates you have no standards at all.
    - http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville
      
      “It’s a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word.”
      — Andrew Jackson
  - keyboardshark
    
    PART 1
    The person that actually wrote the words on the pages (scrolls) were not necessarily the inspired human author (although ultimately the author is God Himself). They were probably written by a scribe, as we see in Jeremiah:
    
    "And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
    
    2Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
    
    3It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
    
    4Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book."
    
    Notice that Jeremiah received the command to write the words of God, but it was actually dictated to Baruch, who wrote it down. Likewise, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John most likely would have done the same. While it is true that there is no statement within the Gospels themselves as to who the human author was, we do a large number of opinions of early church leaders and others, who were far closer in history to the actual writing than your skeptical Dr. Blomberg:
    
    "The early church unanimously held that the gospel of Matthew was the first written gospel and was penned by the apostle of the same name (Matt. 10:2-4). Lately, the priority of Matthew as the first written gospel has come under suspicion with Mark being considered by many to be the first written gospel. The debate is far from over.
    
    The historian Papias mentions that the gospel of Matthew was originally in Aramaic or Hebrew and attributes the gospel to Matthew the apostle.5
    
    "Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 180) continued Papias's views about Matthew and Mark and added his belief that Luke, the follower of Paul, put down in a book the gospel preached by that apostle, and that John, the Beloved Disciple, published his Gospel while residing in Asia. By the time of Irenaeus, Acts was also linked with Luke, the companion of Paul."6"
    
    Mark was not an eyewitness to the events of Jesus' life. He was a disciple of Peter and undoubtedly it was Peter who informed Mark of the life of Christ and guided him in writing the Gospel known by his name. "Papias claimed that Mark, the Evangelist, who had never heard Christ, was the interpreter of Peter, and that he carefully gave an account of everything he remembered from the preaching of Peter."7 Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70.
    
    Luke was not an eyewitness of the life of Christ. He was a companion of Paul who also was not an eyewitness of Christ's life. But, both had ample opportunity to meet the disciples who knew Christ and learn the facts not only from them, but from others in the area. Some might consider this damaging to the validity of the gospel, but quite the contrary. Luke was a gentile convert to Christianity who was interested in the facts. He obviously had interviewed the eyewitnesses and written the Gospel account as well as Acts.
    
    "The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when He was taken up, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive, after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God," (Acts 1:1-3).
    Notice how Luke speaks of "them," of those who had personal encounters with Christ. Luke is simply recounting the events from the disciples. Since Luke agrees with Matthew, Mark, and John and since there is no contradictory information coming from any of the disciples stating that Luke was inaccurate, and since Luke has proven to be a very accurate historian, we can conclude that Luke's account is very accurate.
  - keyboardshark
    
    PART 2
    
    The writer of the gospel of John was obviously an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life since he speaks from a perspective of having been there during many of the events of Jesus' ministry and displays a good knowledge of Israeli geography and customs.
    
    The John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 135 contains portions of John 18, verses 31-33,37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt and a considerable amount of time is needed for the circulation of the gospel before it reached Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's.
    
    Of important note is the lack of mention of the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events. Instead, he focused on the theological aspect of the person of Christ and listed His miracles and words that affirmed Christ's deity.
    
    Though there is still some debate on the dates of when the gospels were written, they were most assuredly completed before the close of the first century and written by eyewitnesses or under the direction of eyewitnesses." http://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-…
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      “The four Gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament, for example, are all anonymous, written in the third person about Jesus and his companions. None of them contains a first-person narrative ("One day, when Jesus and I went into Capernaum…"), or claims to be written by an eyewitness or companion of an eyewitness. Why then do we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Because sometime in the second century, when proto-orthodox Christians recognized the need for apostolic authorities, they attributed these books to apostles (Matthew and John) and close companions of apostles (Mark, the secretary of Peter; and Luke, the travelling companion of Paul). Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.”
      "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1
      
      The name John was common [...]. Even though the Gospel and Epistles of John do not claim to be written by someone of that name, the book of Revelations does (see Rev. 1:9). But the author does not claim to be John the son of Zebedee, one of Jesus' apostles. In fact, in one scene "John" has a vision of the throne of God surrounded by twenty-four elders who worship him forever (Rev. 4:4, 9-10). These twenty-four elders are usually taken to refer to the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles. But the author gives no indication that he is seeing himself. Probably, then, this was not the apostle. And so, the book is anonymous, later accepted by Christians as canonical because they believed the author was, in fact, Jesus' earthly disciple.”
      "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)2
    - keyboardshark
      
      Jeff says: "None of them contains a first-person narrative". Well, duh, the purpose of the Gospels is not to tell us about the author's experiences, but to tell us of the Lord Jesus Christ and His ministry here on earth. It is not the Gospel according to Matthew because it is supposed to be about Matthew. If I was writing a biography of Jeff Dixon, based on interviews with people who knew him, would I interject my name in the narrative or speak from a first-person perspective? Not likely, unless I decided to write a preface in which I recounted my own personal experiences of how well I knew him and what a cool dude he was.
      
      "Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications". Yes, modern 'scholars' who are centuries removed from the writing of the New Testament, know more about who authored the Gospels than those who lived in the first century. Sure. Any skeptic can come up with any theory he wants as to who he thinks 'actually' wrote the Gospels, except that their opinions are in opposition to the consensus of those who were in a position to make an informed decision in the first century.
      
      "In fact, in one scene "John" has a vision of the throne of God surrounded by twenty-four elders who worship him forever (Rev. 4:4, 9-10). These twenty-four elders are usually taken to refer to the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles. But the author gives no indication that he is seeing himself. Probably, then, this was not the apostle." Huh? What does this have to do with authorship? Even if it were true that the vision of 24 elders represented the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles, and even if it were true that John did see himself as one of the apostles in the vision, why would it be necessary to name himself by name, since none of the other 23 are named? An argument from silence is a very weak argument indeed.
      
      "Probably, then, this was not the apostle. And so, the book is anonymous, later accepted by Christians as canonical because they believed the author was, in fact, Jesus' earthly disciple.” 'Probably not the apostle' then becomes a definite 'the book is anonymous'. Hmmmm. Why would it be so hard to conclude that John was the author? He is very clearly mentioned by name in Matthew 4:21: "And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them."
      
      Then he is again mentioned by name in Revelation. What other John would it be? If it wasn't the disciple, it would be just the opposite situation–it would be clearly stated that he was not the disciple since John the disciple is clearly named in the Gospels.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      keyboardshark77p · 1 hour ago
      Jeff says: "None of them contains a first-person narrative". Well, duh, the purpose of the Gospels is not to tell us about the author's experiences.
      
      You just got done saying that John was "obviously an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life" and now you say of course it was not a first person narrative? lol
    - keyboardshark
      
      Being an eyewitness does not require the writing style to be in the first-person narrative. True, it could be written that way, but it is certainly not mandatory. John was not writing an autobiography, he was detailing the life and ministry of Christ, so he could have easily written it in a third-person style.
      
      Since the writing of the Gospels was divinely inspired, God must have directed him to write it the way he did, but humanly speaking, his reason for doing so may have been that he didn't want to toot his own horn. He didn't want to give the appearance of pride but wished to remain humble by not interjecting himself into the narrative in an obvious way.
      
      In fact, it appears that he is purposely avoiding the mention of his own name, because we read, for example: "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him." (John 20:2, my emphasis). Why didn't he name this 'other disciple'? Probably because it referred to himself. We also see the same language in John 13:23, 19:26, 21:7 and 21:20.
- Steve03
  
  If we had 5000 ancient manuscripts of the Enuma Elish, would that prove the divinity of Marduk or the historicity of Tiamat? All the number of manuscripts proves is that the Christian monks made more copies of the Bible than they made of Tacitus or Cicero.
  - Bobseeks
    
    Remember all, this is coming from someone who has no more faith in Jesus than jeffie. The goal of the lieberal is to cast doubt on GOD's Word and thence use Jesus as a tool of the lieberals; a tool who preaches tolerance for sin, performs good works rather than miracles, has no diety, and who offered no hope for eternal life but who worked to turn the earth into a lieberal utopia. Steve03 doesn't even have the integrity to identify himself as the athiest he really is.
  - keyboardshark
    
    The number and proximity in time of manuscripts to the original autographs does not prove divinity, only that the copies in circulation are faithful representations of the original. There is a very definite reason that there are far more copies of the Bible than any other ancient writing–it is because the other ancient writings do not claim to be the divinely-inspired Word of God, whereas the Bible IS the divinely-inspired Word of God. In other words, the Bible is of far greater value than any other ancient text, and therefore was far more widely distributed and copied.
  - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
    
    'If we had 5000 ancient manuscripts of the Enuma Elish, would that prove the divinity of Marduk or the historicity of Tiamat?"
    
    :) HAHAHAHAHAHA Obviously the matter is way more complex than your above simplistic assertion but going along with this simplistic exercise… Do you have 5000 ancient of the Enuma Elish? No? Report when you do… :)
  - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
    
    "All the number of manuscripts proves is that the Christian monks made more copies of the Bible than they made of Tacitus or Cicero."
    
    @Steve03
    
    Nope. See the textual criticism is not just counting the pages and manuscripts. It is actually a science of comparing them analytically as different streams of transmissions of the same content. For you to say what you just said is a proof of your complete and utter ignorance of the subject you are trying to criticize and a sample of how irrationaly biased and prejudiced you are.

Despeville

We now have as many as 18 that is EIGHTEEN fragments of manuscripts from 1st and 2nd century and the list just grew by 6…
This early rich attestation to autographs and the short and closing time interval between the original autographs and earliest manuscripts is exceeding by huge margin anything that was ever written in the recorded human history…

The historical and scriptural attestation to the holy Scriptures is growing as is silence of atheists of whom some are rebranding themselves from atheists to agnostics, case point Richard Dawkins.

netace

It's gonna be interesting when the rapture occurs (which is not that far away now). A lot of these atheists are gonna be in "OMG – I was WRONG!" mode, and of course then will be to late…
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Every generation believes the Rapture will be occurring in their lifetime. That has been true since Jesus made his false claims about returning in the lifetime of his disciples. They have always been wrong. They will continue to be wrong.
  - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
    
    "Every generation believes the Rapture will be occurring in their lifetime…"
    
    Clueless again… It could not possibly "every generation" Dixon as "rapture" was not heard in the Christian Church until mid of 19th century where controversial secy in GB called "Plymouth Brethren" invented it… Additionally, pulp fiction brand of eschatology popularized by "Left Behind" junk is largely unknown in the world beyond the land of leavenjellycalism…
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      I used the word rapture to respond to Netace, who used that word. However, rapture, return, second coming, it matter little what you want to call it, Christians believe that Jesus is coming back at some point. You are wrong. Myths do not return from anywhere.
  - Duane
    
    Christ returned "in the clouds" in 70 A.D. and ended Temple Worship and scattering the Jews among the Nations…The next time, He comes will to put an end to the wicked, and to gather His people to Himself. Need to study more so that you can present stronger arguements…not that they would prove Holy Writ, wrong.
    - Despeville
      
      Full preterism is unsubstantiated bibicaly and if in outright denial of Second Coming of Christ then also heretical.
      Christ has not returned yet in any way shape or form and if you insist He did then you put yourself on the same page as Jehovah Witnesses do… That should be scary enough for you but I doubt you have looked at it that way.
    - Johnny
      
      Had Christ returned in AD 70, the early fathers, at the least, would have recorded that he had returned. I have not read the collected works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, but had they written of any such event, the various church histories, which rely, in part, on them would have noted the event.
- http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
  
  There is no rapture but the Day of the Lord.Please do read 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in its context and that is The Day of The Lord mentioned WHOLE TWO VERSES LATER in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and do remember that chapters and verses numbering was introduced in early XVI century. Original Greek text was one and continuing text without breaks, spaces or indentations.

Thom

Dixon,
I am afraid that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the scriptures.

Jesus claimed the his Kingdom would be established in his disciples lifetime. And yes he did return, Three Days after he died. And his Kingdom was a new kingdom where there was neither Jew not Greek, Bond Nor Free, Male nor Female.

Christianity has now been in existence for over 2000 years, with each true Christian seeing Christ as his/her King. Whether or not he comes again in our lifetime is actually irrelevant. If christ is your king then you will be living in such a way to be prepared for his return and continue to fight the Evil One in every way during this life.

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

No, I have a clear understanding of the scriptures. I am fully aware that they are fables.
- silvernotes
  
  It is clear that you do not know them with your comment about them being "fables."
  
  Please, if you are going to make conversation, do it intelligently. Christ said only the Father knows when he is returning.
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
    
    Yes, that is one of the stories in the bible. It is also amusing that an all knowing god actually does not know something.
    - A. Reginald
      
      Jeff,
      Jesus did not say he was coming back immediatley. He did say that at the end of whar we call human history He will rule until He turns that oveer to God the Father. He admitted that the timing of the event was hidden from Him during His sojoourn on earth. I'd sugges t you read Acts 1: 7 "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Jesus makes it clear that he is speaking about the current generation of people. In Matthew 24:4 when the disciples asked Jesus about the end of the world, he "answered and said unto THEM", "Take heed that no man deceive you… ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars… Ye shall see the abomination… etc." He is clearly replying to them, telling them what they shall see. He says that THEY shall see these things. Read it for yourself. Then he concludes by saying: "THIS generation shall not pass" until he comes again. The evidence can be found in Mark chapter 13, starting from verse 5 onward. It is clear that he is speaking to his apostles, answering their inquiry. To say otherwise is to be dishonest.
      
      And yet there is something even stronger than this. The same story is related in Matthew chapter 16. Yet this time, Jesus does not use the word "generation". He again describes how he will come in the glory of his father, with his angels, to judge men according to their works. Then he concludes by saying "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
      
      That is the final nail in the coffin. Matt. 16:28 says there were some men standing there next to Jesus who will see his second coming, and it is totally clear that in Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30, Jesus believed the end of the world would come during the lifetimes of his apostles. Jesus says so himself. He thought that he was going to be returning in the First Century. He said: "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) Similar statements are to be found in Mark 9:1; 13:30; Matthew 10:23; 23:29-36; and Luke 12:49-50. Jesus' title of "Messiah" literally translated means "inaugurator of the end".
      
      It is clear. There is no reason to doubt that the author of Mark wrote what he intended to write. Christian scholars claim that the book of Mark was written around the year 60 C.E., 35 years after the alleged death of Jesus, and well within the lifetimes of any of his followers. Whoever wrote the text believed that the Messiah would return during his lifetime. And as Matthew was constructed from Mark some decades later, whoever wrote Matthew simply copied this same information.
      http://freethought.mbdojo.com/2ndcoming.html
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Dixon you cannot understand even Mark 1:15 in your deafness and blindness… Why do you venture out past that? Just to show us more of your utter cinfusion?
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Because the verses you cling to are nonsense.
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      Jeff,,, As usual you are wrong, on the meaning of the word "Messiah" the true meaning is , " the anointed" , " Christ "
      Concerning the disciples dying at a young age because they were poor, and therefore could not have written the Gospels, since you are so well versed in scripture, what do you think Isa. 53:5 and 1 Pet. 2:24 means???? Isa. 53:5 "But he was slain for our sins, he was afflicted for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his wounds (stripes) we are healed "!! (Aramaic Peshitta translation)
    - keyboardshark
      
      "This generation" refers to the generation of Jesus Christ, not the generation of people standing there when Jesus uttered those words:
      "In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
      
      34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
      
      35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (Acts 8:33-35)
      
      The Greek word translated as "generation", is genea, (Strong's #1074) which is also translated as ages (Ephesians 3:5, 21), nation (Philippians 2:15) , time (Acts 15:21) or times (Acts 14:16), so it does not necessarily have to refer to a short period of time encompassing a person's lifespan.
      
      The "ye" in Matthew 24 does not have to refer only to the people who were standing there, because the Bible is addressed to all people of all time periods. "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." (verse 33 and others).
      
      "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
      
      28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:27-28). These two verses are not talking about the same event. Verse 27 says He "shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels". Verse 28 says "the Son of man coming in his kingdom." The second does not mention angels or 'in glory'.
      
      The second was fulfilled the very next chapter: "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
      
      2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
      
      3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." (Matthew 17:1-3)
      
      "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15). This refers to the first coming of Christ and the beginning of His earthly ministry, not the second coming. The time had been fulfilled for Him to come: "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"
      (Galatians 4:4)
      
      The word "messiah" does not mean "inaugurator of the end", it means "a consecrated person (as a king, priest or saint) or the annointed (Strongs 4899, Hebrew). The New Testament uses the word "messias" which means "Christ" (Strongs 3323, Greek).
      
      Matthew was not simply copied from Mark. There is a lot of information in Matthew that does not appear in Mark. The most obvious example of this is the information concerning the birth of Christ, which is absent from Mark. They would obviously be similar, though, because they both narrate the life and ministry of Christ.
    - Johnny
      
      "Christian scholars claim that the book of Mark was written around the year 60 C.E., 35 years after the alleged death of Jesus" How well can you add or subtract? I had never heard of anyone's saying that Jesus died AD 25; the earliest date that I have seen calculated is AD 30.
keyboardshark

End of the world:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10

Rapture/return of Christ:
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
- http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
  
  And whole two verses later we find this rather interesting background to it… It is called THE DAY OF THE LORD…
  
  'I would not brethren, have you ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus is dead, and is risen, even so them which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this say we unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which live, and are remaining in the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which sleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort yourselves one another with these words.But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 02For ye yourselves know perfectly, that THE DAY OF THE LORD shall come, even as a thief in the night."
  
  1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 5:2 Geneva Bible
  - Myrtlelinder
    
    To further explain JESUS' return:
    John 14: 1-4
    1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD believe also in me.
    2. In my FATHER'S house are many mansions: if it were not so I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you.
    3. And if I go and prepare a ;lace for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be, also
    4. And whither I go ye know and the way ye know.
    
    Luke 14:35 Behold, your house isleft unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time comes when ye shall say, Blessed is HE that comes in the nameof the LORD
  - keyboardshark
    
    Yes, it becomes difficult to distinguish between 'the day of the Lord" and "the coming of the Lord". We do know that Christ will return in the future, and we do know that the earth will be destroyed in the future, but are they simultaneous? I cannot tell for certain, as it is not clearly spelled out in enough detail. I have heard various scenarios that have been taught, such as Christ will return, then there will be a 1000 year millennium, or that Christ will return and then in a few hours or few days the earth will be destroyed, etc. Personally, I do not believe the Bible teaches a literal 1000 year reign, but even so, it's still unclear, at least to me, as to what the exact sequence of events will be. I don't think the Bible gives us enough information to be too dogmatic.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Indeed but so called "rapture" as in the quoted by context is a part of the Day of the Lord and not a separate event from it.

Thinkings

I look forward to reading the book!

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

So, you consider me a myth? That must be why you respond to my posts. You seem to have a pre-occupation with myths.

Despeville

Yes Dixon and that's actually a biblical language which you are not aware of nor can understand.
If I do respond to your mumblings it is most of the time and primarily for the sake of others who read here and almost never post.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Probably one of those speaking in tongues languages. Hey, Humpty, do you ever break out and start babbling in tongues? Or is that just another part of the bible you ignore? I am pretty sure you are not a snake handler or a drinker of poison, although I guess your heavy wine habit could be considered part of that.
  - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
    
    I speak three languages Dixon and they are actually real languages…
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Babble, lunacy and delusion are not real languages, Humpty.

Despeville

Instead of easy go at someone's emotions why don't spend some time learning about textual criticism and textual transmission as you can on The Center for The Study of New Testament Manuscripts?
Here is a link for you: http://www.csntm.com

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=for%…

These might help with your quest, Humpty.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=for%…
  - Despeville
    
    Numb Schizoid do not overload yourself… I have learned long time ago to not open your dumb links. Simply because while you burrow in the layers of imbecility and ignorance I do not particularly have a time for that.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      No, you merely waste your time reading fables and arguing with other delusional people whose version of god is less absurd. But enthrall me with your amazing English skills and try to post something that is comprehensible.
    - Despeville
      
      Numboid (yes that is a word I made up for you Schizoid + numb) go and read some comic books.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      And miss out on all your amazing insights? And I see you are back to making up lies again. It is incredible how you rail against bobbiesocks for not being worried about god, when it is obvious you have no worries either.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Numboid you are very poorly read and you were the one mumbling about comic books so stop whining.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      I never said I read them. I said some colleges use them. But you have never been concerned about accuracy.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Based on how you present information, I should start asserting that you believe in pagan principles, since you have mentioned pagans today. However, that would be dishonest. I shall leave the dishonest actions to you and your fellow Christians and continue to post truthful comments.
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      :) a little more subtle attempt to "divide and conquer" but still brutish and crude Dixon. :)
    - http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
      
      Oh you said that too. In different way and different thread. You are just too embarrassed to admit… Have you found the button on Google I told you about?
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Once again , prove it.

Steve03

"Christianity has been in existence for over 2000 years." Since before AD 12? Only if you count Virgil as the first Christian.

Joe Anzilotti

I see Steve that Math is not your forte. Don't worry though. Google can fix that. Or you can always go to the "smart" phone.

Bobseeks

Once again you quote a man because your faith is in men. Your whole belief system is a fraud and everything that proceeds from your mouth is a fraud used to "prove" your fraud or a truth twisted and used out of context to "prove" your fraud. One cannot make a "rational" reply to one who only believes lies and a liar deserves no reply at all. The only reason I bother with you is to make sure that all realize what lieberal anti-theology and the Jesus seminar are all about.

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

bobbiesocks, you quote from men as well for men wrote the bible. No help from imaginary deities was involved.

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

"The term Rapture comes from the Latin word "Raptus" which means, "caught away or up" thus the Rapture !!"

Peachy Dwayne, but I have one slight problem with that… See as far as I am aware no part of the Scripture was ever written in Latin so this information while so catchy is completely irrelevant to the Biblical text and that is the only thing that matters.

" Then in 1Thes 5:2 He began teaching on the Day of the Lord,"

Nope Dwayne. He talks about that day there and BEFORE as well:

" and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." ~ 1 Thessalonians 1:10

'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep." ~ 1 Thessalonians 4:15

"The Rapture has always been taught ."

Really? Could you quote something to that sense? Like from early Church Fathers for example? Or even from Reformers not that you care about what they fought for but at least about that. Can you or we just have to go with your "always" because you have always thought that it was "always"?

"the mystery of iniquity 2 Thes 2:7 "

Since you go to second Thessalonians then why not see this passage which clearly speaks about the same event – THE DAY OF THE LORD – The Day of Wrath – The Day of Judgment which is described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 and which 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and so called "rapture" is a part of???

" For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out RETRIBUTION to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will PAY the PENALTY y of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. "

~ 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

Pastor Dwayne

The term Rapture comes from the Latin word "Raptus" which means, "caught away or up" thus the Rapture !! The Thessalonians had been taught the Rapture, ( caught away,up) 1Thes 4:17 by Paul! Then in 1Thes 5:2 He began teaching on the Day of the Lord, and what had to happen first before that day would begin. 3 events would half to happen 1. the mystery of iniquity 2 Thes 2:7 , 2. and the great falling away, 2 Thes.
2:3 " Let no man deceive you by any means ; for that day ( the day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come a
falling away first ( that is some,many Christians turning from Jesus because they will refuse to believe the truth , 2 Tim.
4:3-4 ! 3.the man of sin be revealed ( the antichrist), 2Thes 2:3, when that happens The Day of The Lord begins which spans the tribulation period , and ends with His return with all that were Raptured Rev 19:14 and destroy the nations and rule with
a rod of iron! He will Gather all the tribulation saints to Him
The Rapture has always been taught . and all generations are taught to eagerly look for his return for the Rapture . The Thessalonions were told to comfort each other that they would escape the wrath of the tribulation by the Rapture

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

"The term Rapture comes from the Latin word "Raptus" which means, "caught away or up" thus the Rapture !!"

Peachy Dwayne, but I have one slight problem with that… See as far as I am aware no part of the Scripture was ever written in Latin so this information while so catchy is completely irrelevant to the Biblical text and that is the only thing that matters.

" Then in 1Thes 5:2 He began teaching on the Day of the Lord,"

Nope Dwayne. He talks about that day there and BEFORE as well:

" and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." ~ 1 Thessalonians 1:10

'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep." ~ 1 Thessalonians 4:15

"The Rapture has always been taught ."

Really? Could you quote something to that sense? Like from early Church Fathers for example? Or even from Reformers not that you care about what they fought for but at least about that. Can you or we just have to go with your "always" because you have always thought that it was "always"?

"the mystery of iniquity 2 Thes 2:7 "

Since you go to second Thessalonians then why not see this passage which clearly speaks about the same event – THE DAY OF THE LORD – The Day of Wrath – The Day of Judgment which is described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 and which 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and so called "rapture" is a part of???

" For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out RETRIBUTION to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will PAY the PENALTY y of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. "

~ 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
DHaley

I was taught the pre-trib rapture for 20+ years. I no longer believe in it. His words alone refute that thinking.

Matthew 24: 29 *Immediately after* the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21: 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 *And then* shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, *then* look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

In other words, you are incapable of showing it, because it does not exist. Typical, a Christian lying.

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

I do not throw pearls before snouts…
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Because you have no pearls to throw.
  
  But, the point remains, Humpty, simply show the posts from my that you claim exist. I showed the posts that I know exist, everything is simply in your imagination. Which you actually know, even though you continue to lie about it. Which is humorous since that violates the rules from your book of fables. You complain about bobbiesocks, but you are just as willing to lie without any concern whatsoever.
  - http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville
    
    http://soundjax.com/pig-1.html

Pastor Dwayne

The Latin word Raptus is equivalent to the Greek word harpazo , which also means caught up!
Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the caught up ( Rapture ) Therefore , in 2 thess. 2: 1-2 the Thessalonians were all shook up by the false teaching that the day of the Lord had already happened , and they had missed the Rapture . Paul had to remind them of what he had taught them before! The being caught up, ( the Rapture) in 4:17 , which happens before the man of sin is revealed 2 Thess. 2:6-7 . When the church , which is the Temple of the Holy Ghost in our bodies, along with the Holy Ghost are taken out of the way Vs. 7 " he who now letteth, wil let , until he is taken out of the way , (the Rapture happens),, and the separate event , The Day of The Lord! The Day of the Lord does not happen at the end of the Great Tribulation, but begins the moment the man of sin is revealed! At the end of the great tribulation , 2 Thess. 1 : 6-10 happens!!!!!!!!!!

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

A. I see that you do not have any proof, no quote, no fact for your assertion that ""The Rapture has always been taught ."
Why do you then make empty statements which you then CANNOT SUPPORT and CANNOT BACK UP? Does this trouble you at all as a pastor or you think it is all good and honest???

B. Harpazo – "caught up" in itself means nothing for the theory you have embraced if you understand that being "caught up" happens within the larger event of The Day of the Lord and not separate of it as you have believed according to 150 year old traditions of men.

C."Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the caught up ( Rapture ) Therefore , in 2 thess. 2: 1-2 the Thessalonians were all shook up by the false teaching that the day of the Lord had already happened "
No Paul did not teach about being "caught up primarily but about THE DAY OF THE LORD within which being "caught up" happens as you just stated yourself (sic) and as mentioned by you text states… Look at it yourself and tell me if you see "being caught up" expounded or do you see THE DAY OF THE LORD expounded:

" Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that THE DAY OF THE LORD Lord has come."

~ 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

D. 'When the church , which is the Temple of the Holy Ghost in our bodies, along with the Holy Ghost are taken out of the way Vs. 7 " he who now letteth, wil let , until he is taken out of the way , (the Rapture happens),, and the separate event , The Day of The Lord! "

Where do you see anything in 2 Thessalonians that would give you any base for your claim of "separate event"? Where?
Furthermore where do you see anything about "rapture" , "caught up" or whatever you want to call it in 2 Thessalonians?
The text teaches CLEARLY about THE DAY OF THE LORD. This is what Paul literally mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and that sets context for "the appearance of His coming" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 . This is what he discusses in 2 Thessalonians 1 yet despite clear presentation of JUDGMENT on that day, despite that Paul uses the phrase: "THE DAY OF THE LORD" your traditions of men tell you to disregard all of that and read that as being "caught up" of imaginary separate event… I mean how else you would like to violate this text??? And by the way there is nothing there about "church being taken away"…NOTHING it is your traditions of men speaking and not the text.

E. "The Day of The Lord! The Day of the Lord does not happen at the end of the Great Tribulation, but begins the moment the man of sin is revealed! "

Do you have any verses to support that? For so far what you have quoted does not. YOU READ INTO THE TEXT what is not there but what others told you to believe in… In this way you believe more men than the inspired text.
Johnny

I have not read all of what the medievel philosopers wrote, but surely if any one of them had taught the rapture, it would have been noted in church histories, for they not only recorded what is accepted as true doctrine, but also they recorded information about false doctrines.
- http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
  
  Precisely Johnny. There is this deafening silence about this "rapture" in the recorded history of Christian Church up until 1840s in UK. There is literally nothing despite pastor's Dwayne assurance and that: "The Rapture has always been taught ." I asked Dwayne to quote and reference something to that end and what we have from him in this regard is the same deafening silence…

Pastor Dwayne

Just curious!!!!! who are the people dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 that are following Jesus on white horses coming down to earth to perform 2Thess. 1:6-10???? And who are the saints on earth that he will gather together to him????
The only reason you can't see the two separate events , The Rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord in 1-2 Thess is, it does not agree with YOUR doctrine!!!

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

Dwayne,

I think nobody has told you this so I will. The Book of Revelation IS NOT a commentary on 2 Thessalonians…
To help you understand this: " who are the people dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14"
I would like to ask you WHERE DO YOU SEE "the people" in this verse:

"And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. "
~ Revelation 19:14

ARMIES IN HEAVEN ARE NOT "the people"… Do you know what the title The Lord of Hosts means???

"The only reason you can't see the two separate events , The Rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord in 1-2 Thess is, it does not agree with YOUR doctrine!!!"

That is a bogus and highly dishonest charge pastor. Notice that THE DAY OF THE LORD what you call: "my doctrine" is mentioned, described and discussed by Apostle Paul in mentioned and discussed text while your "rupture" is not… You are abusing the inspired text by reading into every mentioned THE DAY OF THE LORD your "rapture"….

Again and as ALWAYS you have ignored every single one biblical argument presented. You have ignored and failed to provide any documentation for your assertion of "rapture always thought in the church" and now you jump into Book of Revelation where you engage in further text abuse and reading into "armies which are in heaven" your "the people"…
I guess there is no end to your Scripture twisting for the sake of your XIX century man made myths… Sad indeed.

Pastor Dwayne

The Rapture is not the 2nd coming of the Lord, His second coming happens at the end of the great tribulation!!!!!

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

Do you have ANY scriptural proof for that claim and the "rapture" ?
Johnny

The passage in I Thessalonians says nothing whatsoever about Jesus' making a U-turn and taking the faithful up to heaven with him, to bring them with him when he returns for the Last Judgement. Nor does Matthew 25:31 speak of people's coming with him when he comes with his angels (the heavenly host). As has been pointed out, the idea of a Christian rapture was created in the nineteenth century.
I understand that some 2000 years ago, there were Jews who taught a rapture, but the literature of Christians is entirely void of such an idea until in the nineteenth century.
- http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
  
  Johnny,
  
  Interesting information about Jewish similarities to dispensational myth of "rapture"… This kind of aligns with many other elements of dispensational sensationalism. Could you please point me to some info about what you have stated? Thanks.
  - Johnny
    
    I am sorry, Despeville, but off hand I cannot point to such. Briefly, I thought that R.C.H. Lenski, in his commentary on I Thessalonians, had mentioned this, but when I went upstairs, brought the book down, and read the commentary on this chapter, I saw that he did not mention it. He did make reference to John 5:28 & 29 wherein Jesus declares that both those who have done good and those who have done evil shall be resurrected at the same time–without a thousand year interval between two resurrections. He also comments that the chiliasts (millenialists), despite the clear language in this passage that states that there will be only one resurrection, for all people who have died, aver that there will be two resurrections. He also, in not so many words, state that the chiliasts make great stacks of hay out the passage in I Thessalonians.
    
    It is obvious from the clear meaning of what Paul wrote the Thessalonians that the chiliasts take the "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-3 and attempt to make "it walk on all fours," refusing to correlate what John recorded in Revelation with other passages of scripture which have any bearing on the return of our Lord.
    - Johnny
      
      This is really a reply to your request for further information on the Jewish "rapture." It may be that there is something in the works of B. B. Warfield that mentions this; it may take me some time to search it out. Incidentally, I believe that my grandfather studied under Dr. Warfield at Princeton Seminary, since he graduated in 1889 (taking an M.A. at the College of New Jersey at the same time). Both institutions have gone far down in the last 123 years.

Pastor Dwayne

concerning Just curious!!!! and how did those people in Rev. 19:14 get there??????????

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

There are no "those people" or any other people in Revelation 19:14. Only HEAVENLY ARMIES which you want to make into people to bend Scriptures down to your man made myths and legends… Sad.

Pastor Dwayne

The armies dressed in fine linen, clean and bright, are the saints that were caught up at the beginning of the Tribulation!! If you don't think so, what and who is described in Rev. 19 8 " And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints "! No where in my Lords Word does it tell me that angels wear the clothes of the saints!! So, Rev. 19:14 the armies are the saints of God, I know it is hard for you to grasp that. As I mentioned earlier the saints got to heaven by being caught up at the beginning of the Tribulation!!!

Pastor Dwayne

IThess. 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holinessbefore God, even our Father , at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS"!!
- http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville
  
  Yes, this speaks about 2nd coming and not 1.5 coming invented in England in mid of XIX century…
http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

:)

So you have ignored all of what was presented and now it is about fine linen? :) Wow truly the power of man's traditions is something else. This is highly speculative assertion that you are trying to make while ignoring a sound and concrete words of THE DAY OF THE LORD that actually are in the text…

A. This is a spiritual language and Angles and Saints can wear fine linen as a description of their sinless status.
B.Even if they are saints on both accounts there is absolutely no basis there to assume that they were "caught up at the beginning of the Tribulation" as your traditions tell you…
C. Have you located and can you produce ANYTHING from Church History to support your bogus claim of: ""The Rapture has always been taught ." … :)

Pastor Dwayne

i'VE GIVEN SCRIPTURE YOU HAVE GIVEN CALVINISTIC NOTHING!

http://youtu.be/ltW-AKROlXQ Despeville

@ pastor Dwayne,

Stop calling names and I know you use that term which you do not understand in a derogatory way…
Quite something pastor…

"YOU HAVE GIVEN CALVINISTIC NOTHING!"

Nothing? Why you must lie for the sake of man's traditions??? Ans since when The Scriptures is nothing to you pastor?
Have you found SOMETHING, ANYTHING from the history of church ti substantiate your traditions and its claims???

Pastor Dwayne

According to a very few like you, call it mans traditions!!

http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville

Please do not "address" me in your put downs but address the biblical arguments provided for you by me and Johnny.
I am still waiting for a quote and reference from church figure substantiating your loud claim of: ""The Rapture has always been taught ."

Ask yourself this… What is your inability to provide this proof say about you as a pastor and the brand of eschatology you have bought in? And ask yourself that before God in light of the people you are shepard.
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  I will soon, when I find the time. I'm busy right now!!
  - http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville
    
    :) Heh Sure you are busy… If you would have and if that would actually be to have then you would post it already 10 times… As it is you do not have ANYTHING for your bogus and fallacious claim of: "The Rapture has always been taught ." for simply there is NOTHING TO HAVE for the Church did not believed and did not know your dispensationalism and your eschatology for 1800 years… and you know it too for you are searching for it desperately… :) So again you are being dishonest for the sake of your traditions.
    
    Watch and listen to this it will do you good: http://www.shepherdsconference.org
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      Humpty, this is the same thing you do when you are unable to post supporting information. You are such a hypocrite.
    - http://youtu.be/SLlvGDFVsf0 Despeville
      
      Irrational Schizoid. I told you many times schizo that I do not discuss the Scriptures with blind and dead sinners. Not past Mark 1:15. Which part of that you cannot understand in your feeble mind? Discuss Scriptures with you is akin to discuss a painting by Marc Chagall with a blind man. The blind man can only touch the frame and figure out its size and structure bu touch bit nothing else past that schizo and that frame for you is Mark 1:15
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      I was referring to your refusal to post proof of your lies about what I supposedly said regarding comic books. I know you will not discuss religious topics. You cannot stand being shown up.

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

Would the partisans of Christ have set out deliberately to lie? Were they such barefaced charlatans that they concocted falsehoods and deceits merely to advance themselves and their designs? By their own admission, YES they were. They may well have been believers, in that they held to a certain faith. On this was built the fanaticism either to die, or to kill others, for that faith. But faith absolves the believer from any fidelity to objective truth.

‘There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation.’

– St. Jerome (Epistle to Nepotian, Lii, 8.)

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

Thus by small steps a complex weave of fantasy is woven. As indeed the Church Fathers cheerfully admit:

"I will only mention the Apostle Paul. … He, then, if anyone, ought to be calumniated; we should speak thus to him: ‘The proofs which you have used against the Jews and against other heretics bear a different meaning in their own contexts to that which they bear in your Epistles.

We see passages taken captive by your pen and pressed into service to win you a victory, which in volumes from which they are taken have no controversial bearing at all … the line so often adopted by strong men in controversy – of justifying the means by the result."

– St. Jerome, Epistle to Pammachus (xlviii, 13; N&PNF. vi, 72-73)

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm