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calvinism

Is Calvinism Anti-Missionary?

In the March issue of Credo Magazine, “Make Disciples of All Nations,” we interviewed Kenneth Stewart, Professor of Theological Studies at Covenant College and the author of Ten Myths About Calvinism (IVP). Here is what Ken had to say about Calvinism and Missions…

Calvinism is largely anti-missionary. True or False?

It is historically false. Surprisingly, the charge that it is true seems to have grown up especially since 1960 when it was given respectability by the Southern Methodist University, Perkins School of Theology professor W. Richey Hogg.  More recently, the charge has been repeated by the late historian of Southwestern Baptist Seminary, William Estep and the evangelical apologetics writer, Norman Geisler.  A better knowledge of mission history would have kept them from making this indefensible claim.

What about the Reformers? Did Luther, Calvin, and others care about evangelism and missions?

In the sixteenth century, transoceanic missionary activity required both a supportive monarchy and a national program of overseas expansion. As neither Switzerland nor Saxony were maritime nations, their transoceanic missionary efforts awaited developments beyond their control. Until those developments came, Lutheranism concentrated on the missionary penetration of adjacent territories (Poland, the Baltic countries and Holland). Swiss Reformed missionary penetration of Holland, France and Hungary ran along similar lines. And it was just as perilous work as missions to the tropics.

Continue reading at www.credomag.com
 
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  • http://www.vanguardglobal.net Ed Gross

    D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones once rightly said that all the founders of the great mission societies in Britain and America at the beginning of the 18th Century were, to a man, Calvinists. Those who believe that God has ordained the ends understand that He has also ordained the means, namely, the preaching of the gospel, the making of disciples, the development of leaders, the training of pastors and the planting of churches. No one believed in the gospel of grace more than Paul, yet no one practiced missions better.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Ditto.

      • George

        Calvinist don't go out to win the lost they go out to discover the saved. The very heart of their doctrine forbids mankind to exercise free will in deciding to follow Jesus. The heart of the word evangelism is to call out, i.e. to exercise free will. So then it doesn't matter if the are mission minded because in their theology it is an exercise in futility.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          What a hogwash. Would you shows ONE PLACE, yes JUST ONE in the Word of God were asserted by you and your traditions "accepting and deciding to follow Jesus" is clearly presented? See all I can see is REPENT and BELIEVE and given as a COMMAND (Acts 17:30) and none of that man's decision as a fulcrum of salvation… That is simply Roman Catholicism for their religious treadmill is completely rooted in what you subscribe to: "the power of man's decision even over God"

          " What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? "
          ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          • Paul

            According to calvinists, even "REPENT and BELIEVE" are a work and therefore cannot be done by men.
            In fact, they are not a work of salvation, but a requirement for God's proffered justification to be received – "for as many as received Him, He gave them power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name"

            The Bible is clear – Repent and Believe.

            Anything more (like catholics) is wrong. Anything less (like calvinists) is wrong.

          • bighoss

            You readily accept that the two active responses you name–repentance and belief–are NOT works that merit salvation. I agree. But I daresay you will not place baptism in the same category, even though it is something that is passive, i.e. done TO a person, rather than BY a person. I contend that the person who is the subject of baptism is baptized as an essential element of receiving God's justification. Assuming I am correct as to your view of baptism, please advise me as to why you would NOT place baptism in the same category as repentance and belief, i.e. as not being a work of merit. Stated alternatively, , why would you consider baptism as a work of merit and thus disqualify it as essential to remission of sins and thus essential to salvation?

            See Acts 2:38; I Peter 3:21; and Romans 6:1-10.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "According to calvinists, even "REPENT and BELIEVE" are a work…"

            ~Paul

            This a caricature and a lie. A false straw man you have erected or copied from somebody with false features which you can easily attack. Reformed Believers do not believe in such a thing. You have no idea what you are ignorantly attacking and I have a strong feeling that you are not interested in knowing either.

        • keyboardshark

          Free will? Jesus didn't think so:

          "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65)

          "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

          We can 'receive' Christ of our own will? Nope. The 'free will' crowd uses verse 12, but omits verse 13:

          "12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

          13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Indeed and popular notion of so called "free will" of man when man calls the shots in term of his salvation is nothing but idolatry and heresy as Spurgeon rightly preached and a golden idol of men.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            keyboardshark86p · 3 weeks ago
            God is not "responsible" for everything. God created man perfectly, but man, of his own free will, chose to disobey God and thus suffer the consequences, which includes death.
            http://zionica.com/2012/03/26/atheists-rally-on-n

            Whether Jesus thought so or not, it is obvious that YOU think free will exists, Key.

          • Johnny

            If Keyboardshark thinks that free will exists, why did he cite passages that show that it does not exist? It seems that you either did not read the passages or else could not comprehend the clear statements presented.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Because he, like all Christians, site only the passages that seem to prove their particular point when they want to show some idiotic viewpoint.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Nothing more funny than an atheist imagining that he can tell Christians how to read and understand a book that he dismiss a priori as false…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Sure there is. It is a Christian pretending he can explain his absurd worldview.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            None is talking to you. It was you who barged into here with your shallow and clueless pronouncements. Are you bored then go to your neighbors house and treat yourself to his fridge. This action would match what you do here not that you would understand it.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            You talked to me when you replied to my comment to Johnny. Are you even reading these posts?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yes I do Schizo and your was first and above my which constitutes you barging into the thread.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            No more so then you making your first comment on a thread, Humpty.

          • keyboardshark

            Jeff says: "Whether Jesus thought so or not, it is obvious that YOU think free will exists, Key."

            Sure I think free will exists. I have the free will to decide whether I will wear blue socks or white sox when I get dressed, and I also have the free will to choose whether I will eat a hamburger or a pizza for lunch. And I also have the free will to commit sin because I have a sinful nature.

            However, when it comes to salvation, that is a different matter altogether. The Bible says the heart of man is desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), so when I was unsaved, my wicked heart did not want to believe in or understand God, much less seek for Him.

            "10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

            11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

            12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3)

            So when it comes to matters of ordinary life, we do have free will, but when it comes to salvation, it is only God that can incline our hearts and make us believe:

            "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65

          • far2right

            Believing never saved any person from God's just sentence of condemnation.

            Christ saved every elect soul upon His finished obedience unto death.

            Justification by the sinner's faith is a Reformed heresy. It is sleight of hand system of works that makes the work of Christ of none effect until the sinner let's Him save him.

            All forms of false christendom have a common ground – justification by the sinner's act of faith.

            In the end the Reformer and the Romanist alike share the same works religion.

            They will be holding hands at the Judgment.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Of course, you have free will except when you do not have it. Another clear as mud explanation there, Key.

          • keyboardshark

            The choice of what I wear or what I eat for lunch has nothing directly to do with the eternal destiny of my soul, but a belief or disbelief in the God of the Bible does. There is nothing preventing my wicked heart from choosing blue sox over white sox, or choosing pizza over a burger. However, my wicked heart IS preventing me from coming to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ on my own because it is not something that can be accomplished without God's intervention.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            keyboardshark86p · 3 weeks ago
            God is not "responsible" for everything. God created man perfectly, but man, of his own free will, chose to disobey God and thus suffer the consequences, which includes death.

            You were not talking about eating lunch or picking out an item of clothing, your comment was about Adam defying god which most certainly had most severe consequences in that fable.

          • keyboardshark

            The salvation plan has always been the same. There are two ways to obtain salvation–either keep the Law perfectly, avoiding God's penalty for disobedience, or find someone else to pay that penalty for you. Adam, who is the father of the human race, had a free will to either sin or not sin, and chose to disobey God and fell into sin, proving that he had a sinful nature. All of his ancestors since then have fallen into sin, inheriting Adam's sinful nature.

            The only recourse then for Adam was to come to a saving knowledge of the Savior who was to come in the flesh thousands of years later. However, since only God Himself, as the Son, could pay for his sins, it would have to be God's sovereign decision to save Adam or not.

            It is no different today. Man has a free will to do what he chooses, including sin, which we know he will do because of his sinful nature. He is therefore under God's condemnation for his sin, and his only recourse to avoid that condemnation is to find a substitute to pay the penalty in his place.

            The only One qualified to pay that infinite penalty is God Himself, since God is infinite. But if God has to pay the penalty, then it is God's decision, not man's, as to whether He sovereignly chooses to actually pay that penalty.

            True, Adam's sin did have terrible eternal consequences, and your point is valid, but the decision to remove those consequences by finding a substitute was not his to make. God did not intend to save everyone, so it is His sovereign decision as to who He will and who He will not save.

            Man's decisions can (and will) result in disobedience to God's Law and therefore condemnation, but man's decisions can never result in salvation. Only God can pay the penalty, and therefore only God can cause man to come to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ.

          • Paul

            You forget:
            And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself.

            And:
            God is not slow in His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL would come to repentance.

            There's no way you can twist scripture to say that God does not offer salvation to EVERYONE. True, many reject Him. But AS MANY AS RECEIVED Him He gave power to become sons of God.

          • keyboardshark

            Paul says: "But AS MANY AS RECEIVED Him He gave power to become sons of God."

            You quote John 1;12, but what about the very next verse: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." It very clearly says that those who 'received' Him were not born of the will of man, but of God. That does not sound like free will to me.

            God did not intend to save everyone. Scripture is very clear on that:

            "10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

            11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

            12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

            13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

            14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:" Matthew 13

            "19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:19

            " 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

            46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "There's no way you can twist scripture to say that God does not offer salvation to EVERYONE."

            There is no way you can call this an honest reading of the Word in its proper and available CONTEXT. It is said to see this kind of agenda driven abuse of the Word you Paul engage in… Regarding a classic abuse of 2 Peter 3:8 which you did not even bothered to reference properly…

            " But do not let this one fact escape your notice, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance."

            ~ 2 Peter 3:8-9

            See the word BELOVED from verse 8? It is referring to the same group referred as "ANY" and "YOU" from verse 9… That is BELIEVERS ONLY. The whole chapter and letter is addressed to them.

            As far as John 12:32 which again you did not bother to properly reference:

            "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
            ~ John 12:32

            This refers to all as in people from all nations. This is what early Church believed too as for example Chrysostom and Theophylact testify on their writings… Just think what you erroneously are implying with your Arminian isogesis. Are all people drawn to Christ? Nope they are not. Why are you then you make a liar of Christ by your abuse of His words? Is this a God who declares one thing and fails to do it as it follows from your men pleasing abuse? No, that is not God but men constructed and men serving idol whom you have embraced. Repent and Believe on True God and true Gospel.

          • bighoss

            "And if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN unto me."

            Jesus said that and the word he used for "draw" is the same one used in the verse you quoted, John 6:44.

          • keyboardshark

            You are correct, bighoss, the word translated as "draw" is the same Greek word in each passage. But the question is, does ALL MEN mean every single person in the world, a universal "all"? Let's look at some other passages:

            "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
            Matthew 10:22

            Is Jesus saying that Christians would be universally hated by ALL men everywhere? Even other Christians? Hardly.

            "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God."
            I John 4:7

            Here is a verse that uses the phrase "all men", and in the very same verse, shows it is conditional:

            "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

            I could go on, but lets look at just one more:

            "But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed."

            Really? All men everywhere counted John the Baptist as a true prophet? No, some thought he had a devil:

            "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil."
            Matthew 11:18

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            @Hoss,

            "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
            ~ John 12:32

            This refers to all as in people from all nations. This is what early Church believed too as for example Chrysostom and Theophylact testify on their writings… Just think what you erroneously are implying with your Arminian isogesis. Are all people drawn to Christ? Are they Hoss? Nope they are not. Why are you then make a liar of Christ assuming something that is not the case and never was the case ?????

            Is this God who declares one thing and fails to do it as it follows from your men pleasing assertion? No, that is not God but men constructed and men serving idol… True God does not say one thing and then fails to do it. True God does not fail. True God does not try and try and try to save everyone and then watch helplessly most of them go to damnation…

          • DWoodPC
  • Whiting S. Delk

    The apostle Paul is still the pattern for today (I Coronthians 11:1 and I Timothy 1:16 AV1611. Whing S. Delk

    • George

      Hit dog whelps.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        The pleasures of ignorance are as great, in their way, as the pleasures of knowledge. ~Aldous Huxley

        • DWoodPC

          Huxley was a Humanist, i.e., an atheist. I have attended important lessons in the Reformed tradition what struck me the greatest is their dependence on the philosophies of men, including Atheists, to interpret their scriptures. Does not sound fully like the will of God to me? Please explain Despe.

  • Byron

    Dont know, dont care. Its just another RELIGION that we dont need.

    • trapper

      Yeah we do, Byron. Don't you know it's the opiate of the masses, you communist!

    • LAG

      You care. Someone who doesn't care doesn't bother checking out articles on a Christian website.

      • George

        I apologize to all the Calvinist, I was under the mistaken impression that Jesus Himself said "come FOLLOW Me".

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Yes He said that but to whom? And what did he mean by that? That actually is evidenced in and qualified by the CONTEXT of those passages. If it is truly universalistic as you imply then for example Jesus had to be schizophrenic in making this and so many other statements:

          "And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them,
          “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has NOT BEEN GRANTED. "

          ~ New American Standard Bible : Mt 13:10-11

          Are you prepare to make that conclusion? If not why not?

    • mesaman

      You need to do your posting on the "dumber than a rock" blogsite. It matches your wit.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        :) ahhahahaahaa this is great mesman… :)

  • Kalev

    Not sure if it is but what I do know about it is that it is very anti-Semitic, which is one of the spirits of anti-christ.

    • ORB

      You obviously know nothing about the Doctrine of Grace, nicknamed Calvinism!

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Aha, sure and pigs are very efficient high altitude fliers and can spot a piece of a rotten potato from five miles out.

    • George

      And of course the Spirit of Christ told you to say that bit of grace

    • Christopher

      Have you ever read the Bible, or do you just watch Hagee? The Jews are antichrist(1John4: 1-6; 2John7-11; John5: 43; Gal.3: 16, 29; Rom11: 23, Rev.13: 3) The man of sin will be a Jew

      • lurl

        "just watch Hagee" Are you serious chris?
        Turn on any TV station and he is so fat and so full it he covers all the stations. What a dreadful man and certainly no one that could show a way to a better, healthier life.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          This is two in a row today… Weird, but I have to agree.

        • Guest

          I would have never dreamed that that is what made him fat!!! Now all of these fat people who lives around me , I know what caused it. I'll see if I can find out where they are preaching. I'll go listen to them and see what kind of message the are presenting. I will try to do none of them any harm by visiting and listening because I know so many people hate any Christian and/or any person who seems to have anything more that a very humble home and a car that is less than ten years old.

          • Guest2

            Write a post, the truth will find you out, they don't like it.

    • jack

      What a bogus and overused piece of bull.
      First off, Jews fall into the same category as every other member of the non-elect.
      Second, the term is ridiculous, there are a heck of a lot more Semitic people than just Jews.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Indeed, you will be for a real treat in Galatian heresy with "law obeying" Kalev and his Jewish myths.

  • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

    Here is from the Calvinist Believer nicknamed "prince of preachers" who personally preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Perfect Savior to approximately 20 millionn people in the age with no TV, no radio, no internet, limited press and long and difficult travel:

    "…"Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

    ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    "In Lefense of Calvinism" – full text here: http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      :0 "In Defense of Calvinism" —> http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    • ORB

      Well said Despeville, or should I say Spurgeon. Anyway thanks for the info!

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        You welcome Brother!

    • Five Points

      Amen! Amen! Saved by grace and chosen before the creation of the world.

    • keyboardshark

      Thanks for the share. It's too bad we don't have some preachers nowadays of the caliber of Spurgeon. There is far too much weak-kneed free will or moralistic preaching and conversion of the worship service into an entertainment venue in an effort to appeal to the masses.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        You welcome and Indeed Brother, too bad bad then again this is no coincidence but rather Divine Providence. Now what we have is man-centered pseudo Gospel when man calls the shots on God by his "decisions" and "accepting or not accepting"

        • shirley ford

          a great falling away before the end comes,GOD will seperate the sheep from the goats,become a sheep if you are not already.the time is near…

          • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

            Yes and the Mormons same the same thing and Jehovah Witnesses too and to the "T" Obviously there is more and more real substance than you would dare to understand and live by.

          • DWoodPC

            Please stop demeaning the Mormons, Despe. It's ridiculous that people would be compared to goats and sheep. I am beginning to see Jeff's point. Just leave them alone until you have the time to study them. You don't understand them. They are not at all what you think they are.

            Here is one dissenter from Calvinism I thought might interest you. http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism….

    • SHIRLEY FORD

      SO WELL SAID AND SO FULL OF THE TRUTH.CALVIN WAS ONLY PREACHING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE,WHY DOES HE GET ALL THE CREDIT???PEOPLE HAVE A STRANGE WAY OF BECOMING FOLLOWERS OF OTHER PEOPLE….CHRIST AND CHRIST ALONE….

      • Pastor Dwayne

        Shirly ,,, I also don't call preaching Christ and him crucified, pure calvinism ! I call preaching Christ and him crucified pure BIBLE!! I think to many people that follow man's ( calvinism or whom ever ) have a tendency to stretch the Word or twist the Word , a little here and a little there .. example God loves all the world, some will take the word "all" and twist and bend it out of shape and say "all" really means ,some or a few , or quite a few, but deffinatley all does not mean "all" , just to fit "their teaching or doctrine".

        • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

          "I also don't call preaching Christ and him crucified, pure calvinism"

          That is because you are massively ignorant and shallow preferring simplistic pamphlets and not serious works dedicated to teaching. How would you know if you cannot and will not read "The Institutes of Christian Religion" which has thousands upon thousand quotes from the Bible and teaches sound doctrine?

        • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

          "example God loves all the world, some will take the word "all" and twist and bend it out of shape and say "all" really means ,some or a few , or quite a few, but deffinatley all does not mean "all" , just to fit "their teaching or doctrine""

          "Pastor" of Universalistic myths of men,

          Try to twist this into your universalistism. Try to make goats as sheep which you have to to keep your lies:

          "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR THE SHEEP"
          ~ John 10:15 ESV

          OOOooops! Looks like Jesus after all did not go to the cross for the goats…

  • Jack

    The word "mission" and "missionary" have much different meanings to a Calvinist than to an Evangelical.
    A Calvinist missions purpose is to gather the flock and proclaim, as commanded.

    Their purpose is NOT to perform heretical proselytization and fake so-called "conversions."

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Indeed Jack. The whole notion of so called "altar calls" so popular today is a XIX century invention of a heretic Charles Finney and those who took their cues from him and not the Gospel.

      Wretched: Altar Call No-No's – http://youtu.be/HcUlLwel4rQ

      • bighoss

        I gotcha altar call right heah:

        <<<<Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

        38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

        39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

        40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.>>>>

        Poor old Peter–he didn't realize that he was practicing "decisional regeneration." He didn't understand that this kind of pleading could lead to a bunch of false conversions.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Hoss, yes "decisional regeneration" is a made up myth of men and really means "delusional condemnation" but who is so entranced with it and in toto that cannot read the Scriptures apart of that tradition filter? You have to agree with me that Arminians do that and surely not Reformed folks. As far as baptism please do understand the difference between DESCRIPTIVE passage of the Bible and PRESCRIPTIVE passage… and observe that you do not go first to a passage where soteriology is mentioned in passing but to the one that deals with it extensively like Romans 3, 8 and 9 and then to the ones like the one above which is only DESCRIPTIVE.

    • Paul

      Where in the Bible is proselytizing heretical?

      Perhaps it was when Christ gave this command:
      "And he said unto them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be condemned." [Gospel of Mark]

      "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [Gospel of Matthew]

      No, sorry. We are commanded to preach the Gospel, and make disciples – that is the very essence of proselytizing.

      Paul, who a commenter above somehow tried to prove was a "calvinist", clearly didn't think that all things were already decided, but that God's grace was freely available to all who would receive it:
      "To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some."

      "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith."

  • Robert De Leon

    Yes missionary of a misguided and "reformed" Bible. Calvin, as any other "deformer" interpreted the Word of the Lord to his own convenience. He was the first “deformer” that tried to change what our Dear Lord Jesus Christ said (and is written till the end of time), mainly with his false “doctrine” of Predestination. He was a liar and his lies served to his Judgment. Lord, have Mercy.
    Robert.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Here is a Roman Catholic web robot with his program of mechanical repetitious lies and a smelly gutter of misrepresentations all to poison the well and herd gullible to the theater of Roman religion that worships "same god" with Muslims as she teaches in her abominations contained in Roman Catholic Catechism. How is your Allah worship with your Muslim brothers? No wonder you hate true Gospel so much DeMelon, you have more in common with Islam than with Christianity even though you use Christian names, labels and terms just as Mormons do or Jehovah Witnesses do.

      • JeremiahToday

        Aaaah-men! Well, Said!!

    • SHIRLEY FORD

      I READ THAT GOD PREDESTINED SOME PEOPLE TO BE SAVED AND LEFT THE DOOR OPENED TO WHO SO EVER WILL,THAT INCLUDES THE WHOLE WORLD,KINDA LIKE HE CHOSE THE JEWISH PEOPLE FOR HIS PURPOSE,BUT DID NOT LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT,IN THE BOOK OF ROMANS,IT IS WRITTEN THAT IN THE END TIME,ALL OF ISREAL WILL BE SAVED,CAN WE DENY THIS????PRAISE BE TO GOD

    • tbone

      Salvation is an unmerited, free gift given to the undeserved, for the admission of a sinful nature, repentance of unbelief and the offering of the only thing we sinners has to give: his/her own life as a gesture of gratitude for that free gift that was given.
      We have one option but to turn back to the cross whenever our sinful nature takes hold of us as it does so many times in all believer's lives. This is the Gospel: that Jesus Christ died for all of our sins past present and future and nothing can separate us from the Love of God. We only separate ourselves from God through sin, but He is always waiting there knocking on the door of our hearts to come back.

      There is nothing you can do to earn salvation, therefore there is nothing that can be done that can cause it to be revoked. God is a giver, not a taker. The sooner you grasp this most important of doctrines, the sooner you will be ready to share this same Gospel with a lost and dying world. Ephesians 2:8,9.

      You cannot offer what you can't be sure of yourself. You must know that you know.

      • Evermyrtle

        Very well written, tbone, wonderful true information for us who are struggling with our sinful natures, and our love for JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR.

        • Despeville

          Indeed and please do observe that There is nothing you can do to earn salvation" includes so called "decision for Christ" so popular in men centered view of the Gospel for if the man can will himself into salvation then a man can will himself out of it too and then this: "nothing that can be done that can cause it to be revoked." would not be true either.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Simply more delusional views on reality. Hardly a surprise and nothing of value.

  • Dionesius3

    Two things I have noticed about "true" Calvinist;
    1. They fight tooth and nail for their beliefs.
    2. They never fail to use a sledgehammer when a feather duster would serve better.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      That might be the case of location determining your point of view on this matter. I would further say that it is usually made by those who:

      1.Shy from any confrontation and most assuredly in defending what they believe for they prefer to "get along".
      2.They never fail to use misrepresentation and behind the back gossip when open face to face discussion would serve better.

      • Dionesius3

        You might want to back off Calvin. I am neither shy nor afraid of face-to-face discussion.
        But you being both "typical" and " Calvinist" will go to any extreme in order to make your point and have your voice heard.
        A "Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more.
        As I said;
        Why use a feather duster when you have a perfectly good sledge hammer available.
        A distinction which is forever lost on ANY Calvinist.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          As I said your location and your character narrows down your perception and shapes your accusations.
          The word of God IS a sledge hammer as it was quoted below a characteristic forever lost and unacceptable on ANY arminian…

          • Dionesius3

            Your Location and "Christlike" character show you for whom you are and whom you serve. You are so devoted to an Ideal that you are both "blind" and "naked" when it comes to showing both humbleness and wisdom. The fool rails and fusses over things, but a "man of God" weighs his words and speaks sparingly and with love.

            "Love" is not a concept that many Cavinist understand. And I could argue any point you wish to argue but you will only devolve to personal snipes rather than factual discussion.
            So let's just simply leave it alone.
            But you won't and can't do that now can you?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            It is amazing how consistently and with passion proponents of arminianism discuss their opponents instead of arguments they present. You make so many fallacious, unsubstantiated, bogus allegations, misrepresentations and personal judgments without any possibility of knowing what you assert that it is even hard to begin to mention that.

            I will. I can but what? Your smears of me for you have not addressed anything from the Bible that was presented. Zero. Nada. Nothing.

          • HelenofTroy

            When are you ever to begin to practice your religion, indeed, oh "man of God"… who "speaks sparingly … and with love." You are not talking about yourself now are you? You are in a total bog with all your hype and at the height of hypocrisy, Dionesius3.

          • HelenofTroy

            !!!

          • Evermyrtle

            II Peter 1:1-7
            1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of GOD AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST:
            2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD AND OF JESUS OUR LORD,
            3. According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue:
            4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
            5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
            6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience, GODLINESS;
            7. And to GODLINESS brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness, charity.
            8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

          • Dionesius3

            Well Said!!
            But Despeville will not like it I am sure.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More snake like ad hominem is sadly the only thing left for Arminus hobbyist for they know they cannot find their men centered confusion in the Bible.

          • Dionesius3

            So the Scripture is "snake like ad hominem " I now understand fully what you mean Despeville.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            The guy quoted the Scriptures yet you without any basis any proof whatsoever asserted that I "will not like it" and for "sure"… What is that if not snake like lying and behavior? Why do you have to RUN AWAY from I surely like and point to below?

            "“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"
            ~ Jeremiah 23:29

            "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
            ~ Hebrews 4:12

          • Dionesius3

            Here is what you find in the Bible;
            II Peter 1:1-7
            1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of GOD AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST:
            2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD AND OF JESUS OUR LORD,
            3. According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue:
            4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
            5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
            6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience, GODLINESS;
            7. And to GODLINESS brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness, charity.
            8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            And here is what we find in you:

            "Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING."
            ~ Dionesius3

            Versus:

            ""Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius3

            "Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks. "
            ~ Dionesius3

            I think those quotes from you speak for themselves..

          • lurl

            When you learn to read you will receive the answer.
            Obviously you have too many personalities popping up here and even you can't keep track of who you are.
            We shall call you, " The Seven Faces of Dionysius3"
            When another personality comes to the surface do let us know.

          • Dionesius3

            When an intelligent thought comes across your mind we will all know.

          • HelenofTroy

            Dionesius3 the Hypocrite once again exhibited

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          'which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."

          Arminus, you may want to check your Bible please to see who actually draws men and I can assure you it is not men.

          • Dionesius3

            I did not say I was drawing anyone to Christ I said actions can make someone want to know more. Read what I said not what you think I said.
            I can "save" no one. Only Christ can "save" you are a real "Calvinist"
            Blunder and Fuss with not desire to comfort, heal, or draw anyone to the truth by kindness.
            And by the way I am NOT an Arminian they make the opposite mistake that Calvinist do.
            I am a Bibical Christian.
            If it ain't in the Bible I don't believe it, and if it is in the Bible I hold fast to it.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "I am a Bibical Christian. "

            :) You are confused for sure for if you would not be you would know that this term is used and claimed by BOTH theological camps i.e. Arminians and Reformed and without qualification is completely useless and bogus. No you are an Arminian, for that is a default position of the church in last 200 years until one starts to take Scriptures really seriously and study them really hard.

          • Dionesius3

            Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING. Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks.
            If I began calling you a racist would that be either fair or accurate?
            So why do you insist on calling me an Arminian?
            Do you know me personally? No
            Do you know me socially? No
            Are you a phychic? Maybe
            But the fact remains that you are the one who has neither stated a Biblical fact nor responded to the Biblical truth you have been presented with.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING."
            ~ Dionesius3

            Versus:

            ""Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius3

            "Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks. "
            ~ Dionesius3

            I think those quotes from you speak for themselves… :) as does this:

            'But the fact remains that you are the one who has neither stated a Biblical fact nor responded to the Biblical truth you have been presented with."

            In light of your ruining AWAY from this:

            "“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"
            ~ Jeremiah 23:29

            "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
            ~ Hebrews 4:12

          • Dionesius3

            And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            And Revelation 22:17 does not have what clueless Arminan wanted it to have… "whosoever" is non existent in Greek and is to say gently a significant miss-translation.

            There is no "whosoever" here at all: " και ο διψων ελθετω και ο θελων "

            "And they *sang a new song, saying,

            “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men FROM every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
            ~ Revelation 5:9 NASB

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            And a clueless Arminian did not bother to check Greek in Revelation 22:17…
            If he would then he would know there is no "whosoever" there and never mind verses 14 and 15 which clearly give a qualified context of saved people.

          • Dionesius3

            Checked and rechecked it, And I found no Calvinism anywhere to be found. Too, bad I was so hoping you were right.

          • lurl

            Donney:
            You protest too much. One does not need to bake a loaf of bread to understand how it is made!
            Why do you presume that those here must respond to your versions of biblical truths…so called!

          • Dionesius3

            Why do you suppose that you have ANY understanding when all you do is repeat what others have said?

          • lurl

            Dioney:
            It would be the most difficult task in the world to not repeat what others have said and written.
            Don't you just repeat what your small minded preachers have sent to your unquestioning brain?
            Of course you do and you do it constantly. When you have something worthwhile to say then create your post.

          • lurl

            "and if it is in the Bible I hold fast to it"
            How then do you deal with all the biblical errors and how do you apply them to your life and why?

          • Dionesius3

            You are both silly and annoying. Scripture has NO ERRORS!!!!
            Go to the children's chat room and let the adults talk here.

          • lurl

            The adults are communicating here-not talking-one can not talk in a post but merely communicate.
            Since you can do neither I suggest you keep on posting and we can well be assured of your lack of education and communication.

          • Dionesius3

            Your lack exceeds the bounds of reason. And your grasp of this topic matches exactly your understanding of Scripture.
            For you my friend are the one who said Scripture has errors.
            If that is your true belief you have MUCH to learn.

          • lurl

            Dioney:
            I don't need to learn anything more especially from one who lacks theological understanding and real study.

          • lurl

            Dioney:
            I stand by my statement.
            The bibles in use have error's…many of them.
            Believe them if you will but that just points up you lack of any real theological training.

          • Dionesius3

            and your beliefs point to a lack of any real brain.

          • HelenofTroy

            Answere Lurl's good question Dion: "How then do you deal with all the biblical errors and how do you apply them to your life and why?" I think it is spot on. (We know you too well, you know.)

          • Paul

            There are no errors in God's word.
            There are misunderstandings by "us" where preconceived notions do not let us clearly hear what God is clearly saying.

          • lurl

            Pau;///\\\\
            What strange universe do you live in? No Errors?

          • HelenofTroy

            He said "biblical errors" not God's errors. Even the experts know there are some of those… it's what keeps them busy

          • HelenofTroy

            thanks lurl, but as central as it is for him, I an positive Dion will ignore this question

          • Dionesius3

            II Peter 1:1-7
            1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of GOD AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST:
            2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD AND OF JESUS OUR LORD,
            3. According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue:
            4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
            5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
            6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience, GODLINESS;
            7. And to GODLINESS brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness, charity.
            8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Amen, and how is that substantiating your Arminianism?
            Please stop with this self thumbing…It is nauseating.

          • Dionesius3

            Why do you call me an Arminian? For the 300th time I AM NOT AN ARMINIAN, NOR A CALVINIST.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Hmmm, see if you would have a first clue about what are you shouting about you would know how irrational you are. It is like saying I am a human being but neither man or woman. There are no other possibilities. Either God has a freedom to save whom He wants which is Reformed position or He does not and has to comply and obey a "decision of man" which is Arminian and your position. Have enough guts to admit your stance at least.

          • Dionesius3

            Mental moron. There is no sense in the words you speak. Show one verse in Scripture where it is plainly stated that Reformed theology is the only theology?
            Just one mind you.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Another example of Arminian piety…

          • Dionesius3

            Another example of exactly what my first post said!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are a vain troll with no substance to add or show beyond your Russian Bible Roulette and parroting.

      • Dionesius3

        And by the way have I shied from confrontation? NOOO
        Have you made ONE argument Based on SCRIPTURE ? NOOO
        Your best comment so far has been Go read it for yourself, a classic example of one who is either unable or afraid to defend their belief by correctly quoting and using Scripture.
        And the reason why you won't and can't is because your MANMADE doctrines are too convoluted to be explained. You have to first be brain washed to believe Calvin was God and then the whole mess starts to make sense.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          "Have you made ONE argument Based on SCRIPTURE ? NOOO "

          You are a silly and unrepentant liar. Anyone reasonable who will go through this post will see that I am arguing from Scriptures to which you have no response but your irrational slander which I also expose by quoiting what what germinated in your confused mind. You must be some confused liberal who does not know what he believes anymore. Just get that the Scriptures are actually inspired.

          • Dionesius3

            When have I ever said Scripture was not inspired?
            Are you Insane?
            Why do you stereotype everyone you talk to?
            You believe you are the only conservative Bible Believer in the world.
            That boarders on insanity my friend.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I am not your friend Arminian.

          • Dionesius3

            I know because you HATE all who are not card carrying Calvinist.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You sound like a Roman Catholic or homosexual… Assertion of hate is the only thing they can do and you do just that.

          • Dionesius3

            Your words betray your latent fascination with the subject of homosexuality. As I have clearly stated 300 times. I believe exactly what the book of Romans says about homosexuality. Have you ever read the book? If so it does not show in your speech nor attitude towards fellow believers.
            As to the Roman Catholic charge, it again shows your lack of short term memory. I have stated that I am Baptist.
            Finally, I have really enjoyed your questions concerning my education level. But now I am curious as to what level your education has gone.
            Would you be so kind as to tell us what your level of education is?

          • Paul

            I seem to be missing something.

            You clam to be a Christian, and Jesus said "by this all men will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another". Where's the love? The patience and understanding? The gentle guiding to the path of truth?

            Now maybe you don't think Dionesius3 or I are "fellow disciples" because we don't adhere to the calvinist interpretation of Scripture. Fair enough. (and I'm not a disciple of Calvin, but of Jesus Christ, so you'd actually be right) But then, how is all the name calling and ad hominem attacks, and comparisons to cultists and to the depraved serving God and bringing glory to Him? Even if you are 100% right and we are wrong, Paul said: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

            Try a little love:
            Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

            Peace brothers.

          • Dionesius3

            Whosoever will may come.
            That is my argument and here's the Scripture from Rev.
            And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Clueless Arminian. There is no "WHOSOEVER" there in Greek. Not in Revelation 22:17 and not in John 3:16 and not elsewhere where your KJVonlyism tells you it is. Get a grip and for crying out loud have a respect for the Word and quote it properly.

          • Dionesius3

            I did not quote John 3:16 mental case, I quoted the 59 other occurrences of the words which are clear to anyone who reads either the Greek or the Translations. Oops, I Forgot Calvin is the ONLY Greek scholar who has ever lived in the history of the world. I am SOOOO SORRY I forgot that fact.
            Go stick your head back in Calvin's Devine writings again and find another issue to trot out for all to see.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            hahahhahaa You never bothred to actually read those texts in Greek. For example Revelation 22:17 is another one so we down to 58. Do you want to go through next? There will be once that "everyone" will be there but that word will be ALWAYS QUALIFIED by that group's active faith. Something that you a "non Arminian" who argues for Arminianism. speaks like Arminian and abuses the Scriptures like Arminian does not want to understand.

          • Dionesius3

            SPEW IT I love this humbleness shown on your part.
            TELL ME again how much more education you have in the Konia Greek.
            EXPLAIN again how much smarter you are than 80 % of all Biblical Scholars since the foundation of Christendom.
            YOU ARE A JOKE…with no punch line.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More "feather like talk" from Non Arminian Arminian… I would like to remind you that the truth is not a subject of popular vote besides the results were completely different two hundred years ago.

          • Dionesius3

            Yes just 152 years ago the Calvinist pastors of the Southern churches were preaching that Black skin was evidence that these people deserved to be in slavery. It was according to them "God's will that the Black race be in Subjection to the White race" . That makes for a telling history of your beloved belief system does it not.

          • HelenofTroy

            Where the love for your fellow man Dionesius3? I.e., when are you going to begin practicing the scripture you know so well?

    • JeremiahToday

      Is not my word a burning fire; and a HAMMER that breaketh the rock to pieces? The Word of Yahweh/ Jehovah, Himself.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Indeed I was thinking about the same passage. Thanks Jeremiah. These folks will not take God's Word for what it is hammer or sword. They want a fuzzy pillow and a blanket they can stretch and shape the way the prefer…

        • Dionesius3

          And who are "these folks" do you suppose that only you have any beliefs which are Biblically based? Does "truth" only emminate from your lips? Are you the "Modern" prophet to whom God speaks Exclusively?

          "Smugness" and "Pride" beyond belief.
          A recent prayer by Desperville;
          "Dear God,
          Thank You that I am not like these folks who will not take your Word for what it is "A Hammer and a Sword" Thank you I don't have to have a fuzzy pillow and blanket that I can stretch and shape the way I like…"

          • Dionesius3

            Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
            9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

            10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

            11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

            12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

            13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

            14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Makes me mindful"

            Makes you mindful of what you see in yourself… How about what you cannot stand for it does not much your fuzzy pillow Christianity?

            "“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"
            ~ Jeremiah 23:29

            "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
            ~ Hebrews 4:12

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            The discussion was not about "my lips" but about THIS:

            "“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"
            ~ Jeremiah 23:29

            "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
            ~ Hebrews 4:12

            In the end just as in the beginning personal attacks is all you got. We all do that occasionally the problem is that is all you gave and all you can respond with…

          • JeremiahToday

            Despeville, do you frequent Paltalk at all? I haven't much for over a year but it seems your Nick is familiar.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            No brother. I have never been on Paltalk and to be honest I do not have a precise idea of what that is. Some kind of a board?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I do not have any issues with any passages and you have quoted very little if anything. Why do you have to lie? You denying of being Arminian is like a person saying I am not traveling through space because I am on earth as if earth would not zip through space to the tune of tens of thousands of miles per hour. There is no other possibility you either believe that God has an absolute freedom to save which is a Calvinists/Reformed position or you believe that He does not and is limited by man's decision which is Arminian/Roman Catholic position. Please be real here.

          • Dionesius3

            Again there you go with your labels, I am either in your camp or I am in the other camp.
            Give me a break, you are a fool if you think there are only two positions on this issue.
            Do a little research yourself for a change.
            And as for being in Space well brother you are "definely" in space, like outer space if you think you have the market cornered with your point of view.
            Reformed, what pray tell are you Reformed from?
            I am a Biblical believer, and I worship God according to Scripture, I have a Master of Divinity Degree from a "Reformed" University. And I have studied the Scripture for years.
            There is not any 5 point Calvinism in the Bible Nor is there any 7 point Calvinism, Nor is there any 9 point Calvinism. There is Also No Arminianism in the Scripture.
            You have a square hole and are trying to put a round peg into it. It just won't fit.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yawn. you are so mechanical…

          • Dionesius3

            Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
            9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

            10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

            11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

            12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

            13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

            14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            This is a pathetic abuse of the Word for the sake of your injured ego… Sad.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            All this is is your private ego interpolation on the text that you want to use to attack me in your sin and ignorance.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            ha ha ha

          • Dionesius3

            I appreciate your judgement that I am a sinner, but I have news for you, I already knew that I have known it for a Looong time. But I have been redeemed, and I am now a new creature in Christ Jesus my Lord. So come up with something else to hurt my feelings with because this one won't work.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            By the way are you another person who is making a complete clown of himself by self thumbing a second after you see your posts? I can see that you do that… Why is that a common factor for all these religious folks that never want to learn anything besides what they have been fed with so far?

          • Dionesius3

            Like you and Calvin are immune from the same charge?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            The blunder of mindless slander of Dinonsense … Sad clowning indeed.

          • Dionesius3

            Mindlessness should be easy for you to spot, because you surely exemplify the term.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Can you address any of your inconsistencies and double standard as proven from your posts above? Apparently not…

            "Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING."
            ~ Dionesius3

            Versus:

            ""Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius3

            "Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks. "
            ~ Dionesius3

            I think those quotes from you speak for themselves..

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING."
            ~ Dionesius3

            Versus:

            ""Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius3

            "Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks. "
            ~ Dionesius3

            I think those quotes from you speak for themselves..

          • Evermyrtle

            Is there anybody on this site that is more smug and righteous than Despeville, I will not debate with them, nosiree!!

          • lurl

            Myrtle the turtle:
            You will not debate because you can not debate. One should have at least a basic education and be able to read before you can debate.
            Your smugness in always quoting your version and interpretation of the bible is no way to debate. Why are you afraid of Despeville? When at his best he is very interesting but there in no point of interest in your posts.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I must say I am touched. :) Your gesture of good will deserves a gesture from me…
            Cannot think of any better now than this song. Playing for you Lurl:
            http://youtu.be/WbN0nX61rIs

          • Dionesius3

            Excuse me, but who are you? And are you talking to me?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I am your mama and it is time for spanking for your slander blunder.

          • Guest

            This Desper… for those who do not, know claims to be a Christian, can't tell it by the tree, oops I mean his posts.

          • Paul

            Myrtle does not need to "debate". There is no debate here. The word of God is clear and having quoted it verbatim, and it having only one clear interpretation, Myrtle has done all that is necessary to inform you.

            You believe in predestination, right? Well, here's some predestination from the mouth of the Christ: He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

            There is no debate. There is truth. Myrtle, the Christian, has given you that word from the Lord. No name calling, or demand for "debate", so you can state your case will change the fact that the Lord has spoken and Myrtle has merely repeated it, in case you were hard of hearing, or hard hearted, the previous times the Spirit spoke the truth to you.

          • lurl

            Paul
            If Myrtle the Turtle does not or can not debate that is her problem.
            She is very incapable and blathers on about nothing.
            How can I believe in predestination?
            I am an Atheist from more than three generations of Atheists.
            Therefore, little of what you have to say bears any relevance to my stand.
            There are those here who can plead their case, present their cause and do it quite well. You are not one of them.

          • Guest

            I believe I read a post where someone was crediting you of graduating from first grade! Is that true? If it is you need to drop the name calling. Or is it alright to call names through the second grade? If that is true, I wonder if she will care or will she just consider the source? Well, I mean, you know, that is what I would do, just consider the source!! I do apologize, if I'm talking to the wrong person!!

          • Xloni

            It could be suggested that you go to school and learn how to properly interact with others.
            No wonder all your report cards stated, "Does not play well with others."

          • Guest

            Is debating what you call what you are doing, sweetie? What is your itty bittie Name besides lull? I think I'll call your school teacher. Did you say the first grad or did you make to the second grade? Not yet!!!I I'm so sorry, almost as sorry as you are!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            There you go Sir. After you apologized to me and after I did the same to you you proceed with your ad hominem attack… No, no, you will not contribute to the matter of discussion and its substance about so called "free will". You prefer to smear the person and then when approached about it you will claim your 83 years of experience… Well Sir if that is the case you really should know better. You really should but you do not despite your earlier apologies. Sad indeed.

          • Guest

            Gosh, you mean someone has 83 years experience? Doing what? I missed that!! how old would that make this person 103? Golly Moses. I think I can find that post,

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            He asserts his age as if that alone could mean and explain the topic or other topics… From what I have seen that time did not work for his favor in some areas as I am sure it did in others.

          • Guest

            I looked! I can't find any post stating they had 83 years experience, I give up. Either a lie or very old person!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            He said that on a different thread…

          • Dionesius3

            It was Paul who said that

          • Dionesius3

            Whosoever will may come unto the Lord.
            And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Russian roulette with the Bible is truly a deadly game Mr. "Non Arminian" defending a golden calf of Arminianism… Never mind the context of the passage for you just want a word and who cares what that word means in the passage and context…

            For the rest of is there is a context of SAVED people described right before in verses 22:14-15

            "BLESSED are those who WASH their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE are the DOGS and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
            ~ Revelation 22:14-15

            Would you please respect the Word and quote it properly? That is in quotation marks and with proper reference??? For your information. There is no "WHOSOEVER" in Revelation 22:17 just as there is no in John 3:16 despite you Arminian Baptists loving that mistranslation so much… This is what is in Revelation 22:17 that you did not even bother to reference properly:

            "και ο διψων ελθετω και ο θελων " – literally- "and he that thirst let him come and he that wills"

            None of that changes the Fact that Reformed Faith is consistent with this too for none can will to come apart of God enabling them to do so as for example John 6:37 teaches… Learn something beyond KJV please.

          • Paul

            Your statement "none can will to come apart of God enabling them to do so…" is 100% accurate. Jesus Himself said that none could come to Him but that the Father draw them.

            The problem is that you missed all the clear statements that show that God has now called everyone, everywhere, and is drawing them to the One who was lifted up.

            "[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." [1Tim 2:4]

            "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent" [Acts 17:30]

            "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. "[2Pet 3:9]

            Don't limit the mercy or grace of God. When Jesus died, He died for the sins of the whole world – God told us so. His death, the substitutionary sacrifice, was sufficient for the whole world. And, God said it was available to anyone who would believe Him:

            For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " [John 3:16-18]

            Be at peace. Love the Lord Jesus Christ. And love all those who also love the Lord Jesus Christ, for they are as much His children as you claim to be.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "The problem is that you missed all the clear statements that show that God has now called everyone, everywhere, and is drawing them to the One who was lifted up. "

            No I have not missed it. It is just another and deeper layer of the issue here to which I was not close to be able to approach given misrepresentations by D-something. This issue deal with a general and effective call of God about which you can read a synopsis here: http://www.monergism.com/TwoWillsTurretin.html

            Furthermore all "all-s" or "any-s' in Scripture have to be read in CONTEXT and many times they are CLEARLY QUALIFIED as descriptive for BELIEVERS ONLY. Just to show you lets look at just one verse quoted by you 2 Peter 3:9. If you would just honestly quote a VERSE BEFORE you would know who is on the asserted by you "all" as a universalistic "all"

            "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance."
            ~ 2 Peter 3:8-9

            As you can see you singled out "any" belongs to the same group described as "you" and "BELOVED". For your assertion to work your would have to believe that By BELOVED Peter was also referring to pagans and not Believers only. Are you prepared to make this and more importantly to defend this assertion or you just have not bothered to think it through and read in context?

            "Don't limit the mercy or grace of God. When Jesus died, He died for the sins of the whole world – God told us so"

            Why is then WHOLE WORLD NOT SAVED? Was blood and righteousness of Christ not enough? Do not tell me that a sinner has to "activate" that kind of pseudo atonement and if he does not then did not Jesus die also for the sin of unbelief according to you? Why then so many go to hell?

            Do you realized that in Gospel of John there are 14 different usages of the term "world" yet you are ignoring all of that and assert conditional, universalitic pseudo atonement.

            "for they are as much His children as you claim to be."

            hmm that is a put down… :)

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            @Paul,

            "As you can see you singled out "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 belongs to the same group described as "you" and "BELOVED" in 2 Peter 3:8. For your assertion to work your would have to believe that by BELOVED Peter was also referring to pagans and not Believers only. Are you prepared to make this assertion and more importantly can you defend this assertion or you just have not bothered to think it through and read your quotes in context?"

            SILENCE… http://youtu.be/pMfV0sVQ_VU

          • Guest

            Paul, I have read a number of your comments, all true and well stated. But I cannot understand why you would continue to try to explain scriptures to Des… when he has no desire to understand the truths, you are talking about. You know you can never get the last word in!! Anyway he already knows EVERYTHING!!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            No, I do not know evrything and I dismiss your cheap put down. I would like to be correct in my errors so please would you be so kind and explain biblically what I have asked Paul and what he is so far silent about… I am all ears and I want to be shown the truth so please go ahaead and present it but on the topic please and one at the time:

            "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance."
            ~ 2 Peter 3:8-9

            I am all ears for your explanation how you can dissociate "YOU" and "ANY" from verse 9 from "BELOVED" in preceding verse 8… I hope you can deliver on your proclamations.

          • Dionesius3

            Beloved is addressed to the Church. the local boody of believers who met at that time and in that place. Do your meetings include ONLY the saved people? If so your situation is unique. The YOU is directed to those who are a part of that local congregation. Do we know that all those folks were saved? I don't see anything in the Greek that tells me that one way or the other, perhaps you know something about the Greeklanguage that we do not. The ANY is self evident. Beloved refers to ALL who are a part of that local group to whom he is writing. YOU refers to them collectively. Any refers to them Collectively.

            If you assume that this is addressed to ONLY the Believers in the church then your interpretation stands, if you see this as a typical "church" where some are saved and some are not then you interpret this the way Paul and many others do._

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I did not know that you actually have been attending meeting of that Church for that is the only way you could factually make assertions that you do make about this church membership. For those of us who have not been there inspired text of the Word of God is the only authority in this matter.

            "If you assume that this is addressed to ONLY the Believers in the church then your interpretation stands"

            We do not have to "assume" that… This is what the texts states and as much as you want to do semantically gymnastic the text "YOU" is in the very same sentance where "ANY" is all of that qualified by proceeding "BELOVED" which clearly defines the authorial intent as addressing believers regardless of who you have thought to have seen there 1960 years ago…

          • Dionesius3

            Des, Des, Des, you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
            I said clearly, IF YOU ASSUME that all were saved then your interpretation is correct. But if you don't then the other interpretation is correct.
            It depends on what YOUR presuppositions are. I DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING THAT IS NOT CLEARLY IN THE TEXT, but you do assume that this church is comprised of ONLY saved individuals.
            YOU are free to assume that, but don't berate me for not making the same ASSUMPTION that you do.
            And don't try to assert that YOUR assumption is either correct or necessary.

          • lurl

            "None of that changes the Fact that Reformed Faith is consistent with this too for none can will to come apart of God enabling them to do so as for example John 6:37 teaches… Learn something beyond KJV please. "
            A very good statement makes sense even to me. If you are a believer then it would be incumbent upon you to take the next step and understand what you believe.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            There is no "WHO SO EVER" in Greek text of Revelation 22:17… Would you please stop ridiculing yourself and misrepresenting the Word of God? Also do bother to quote and reference properly. This is not a newspaper line.

          • Paul

            In the Greek text of Revelation 22:17, the word "ho", literally translated "he that". In context : "ho akouon" (he that hears), "ho dipson" (he that thirsts), and "ho thelon" (he that wills). Properly translated then in today's English "ho" is clearly "whoever", or in 16th/17th century English "whosoever", so that the English text may properly be read and understood as either:
            "he that hears…he that thirsts…he that wills…" or as "whoever hears…whoever thirsts…whoever wills…"

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            It is a definitive article:

            ὁ, ἡ, τό+ 19275-23273-14636-15242-16013=88439
            Gn 1,1(ter).2(bis)
            as dem. pron.; ὁ μὲν … ὁ δὲ … the one … the other … 4 Mc 13,11
            as the def. art.; the Gn 2,10; his, her, its (expressing possession) Ex 18,24 (secundo); ὁ θεός God Gn 1,1
            the add. of the art. making a subst.: ὁ ἀσεβής the ungodly [art. +adj.] Prv 29,7; τὰ δέοντα the necessaries [art. +ptc.] Ex 21,10; τὸ εὔξασθαι the praying, the vowing [art. +inf.] Prv 20,25; τοῖς σὺν αὐτῷ to his followers [art. +prep.] 2 Mc 8,12; ἕως τοῦ νῦν untill now, hitherto [art. +adv.] Dt 12,9; ἐν τοῖς Αμαν in the premises of Aman Est 7,9
            the add. of the art. making a cl.: ὁ ἐπικαλύπτων he that covers [art. +ptc.] Prv 28,13; ὁ τὸ πολύ he that had gathered much Ex 16,18; ὁ τοῦ Ραγουηλ the son of Raguel Nm 10,20; τοῦ τεκεῖν in order to bring forth 1 Sm 4,19
            Cf. Blass 1990, §249-276; Dorival 1994, 53-54

            Lust, Johan ; Eynikel, Erik ; Hauspie, Katrin: A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint : Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft : Stuttgart, 2003

            '"ho akouon" (he that hears), "ho dipson" (he that thirsts), "

            Yes and this is DESCRIPTIVE of the one who is believing and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. A distinction entirely lost on most people especially those who want to superimpose "WHOSOEVER" on the text respectably of qualifying "ὁ" actions of hearing, willing, thirsting and obeying. This passage describes but does not answers how it is that a dead sinner now hears. How it is that he or she now thirsts. It is DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE if you know what I mean here.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are arguing with the Scriptures not me…

          • Dionesius3

            No dep it is you who are arguing with Scripture.
            Cause if you haven't read it in your Calvinist commentaries you don't know it.
            You could not possibly study the Greek New Testement, nor the Hebrew Old Testament, because it's obvious you have not got the intellect for such things.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More slander from a mind blunder… Kiddo I have quoted nothing but Scriptures to you along with your silly, irrational and inconsistent statements in which you contradict yourself left and right. All you could do is ignore all of that and play your Russian Roulette with the Bible and try to stick me with your butchery of the text about Pharisee as if you would know what that means beyond that it is something bad and since I do not like Despeville he must be bad too so "BINGO" you have made a connection. You are a silly, childish clown that speaks about things of most eternal importance in childish and cavalier way. Silly mind blunder.

          • Dionesius3

            Again you say you have quoted Scripture, But alas, there is not one jot or tiddle to be found. Here is a few for you;
            Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

            Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

            For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Ever heard about the context? Besides even in the sentence itself each and every time that "everyone" is not just naked whatever "everyone" but QUALIFIED everyone.
            Everyone who does the will of God or confesses God. You cannot escape it or evade it. It is right there before your eyes even though you choose to focus on one single word.

          • HelenofTroy

            Write on Despeville. I wish I could give you more than one thumbs up. I am enjoying this immensely. I am encouraged to keep on studying my scripture but at the same time practice what I learn. These guys you have taken on don't practice their religion.

          • Pastor Dwayne

            Dionesius3,, I would say about 3-4 months ago Des and I were discussing the Calvin view point on once saved always saved . I told him if scripture contradicts what you believe , your view point is wrong . When I showed him a few Apostacy verses you should have seen how he twisted and squirmed those verses to try (which he didn't) to get them to say what he believes!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            What is "Apostacy" "pastor" Dwayne… It is like a convention of illiterate here :)
            As usual you misrepresent and twist but never mind. Forget what you hallucinate about from 3 months ago. Why not deal what was presented to you here and now in this thread? Why not walk honestly and faithfully through texts and examples presented by me in this thread? Why? Because you cannot do that and still hold to your pelagian arminianism. That is why you have to whine and attempt to herd my opponents into your derailed band wagon. In fact this is the only silly and wicked way you can pretend that your golden calf of "free will of men" is biblical. It is not and you are in fact if not a wolf then a handicapped fox feeding of those insipid hens that allow you to be a pretender of a "pastor"

          • Dionesius3

            What verse, what text????
            Have not seen the first one except your hammer and sword.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Chew on that Arminian:

            "But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation IS FROM THE LORD."
            ~ Jonah 2:9

            Your Arminian fellow Dwayne would like to believe that surely this verse really means "Salvation is from the Lord and a tiny bit from man"

          • Dionesius3

            Again who here has stated salvation is not from God?
            You are displaying your preconceptions again for all to see.
            Of course salvation is from the Lord, it surely is not from Calvin, the church, or Despeville, (thank goodness for that), so please tell me what you are trying to argue here so we can continue.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Gee, I forgot that one has to apply for your official attestation and certification of authenticity. Do you offer courses and how much does it cost to receive your all important approval? Or loose cannon mouth and slander is the only thing you have to offer? I think the later only…

          • Guest

            Mercy, is that interloper trying to steal it from you? How callous can some people get!!!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I did not know that you have a monopoly for "mercy detector"… How about you realize that mercy and truth go along together? How can I apply for the certification of authentic faith with you and how do I enroll in your course for that? Surely you offer that in your "mercy"?

          • Jack

            "I love and agree with Every verse of Scripture. "
            I highly doubt that.
            What about those passages that damn things the Lord abhors, like homosexuality etc?

            I bet you think it's not "fair."

          • Dionesius3

            I will stop when you make a Scripturally based argument that supports just one tenant of Calvinism.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Open you eyes then and start reading…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            What a shock, two Christians disagreeing.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            V.R.M.S.

          • Dionesius3

            Open yours and stop reading Calvin.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Silly clown.

          • Dionesius3

            Hey Jack I've noticed something very telling about your posts on this site. You mention homosexuality almost every third post. Is the subject a fascination of yours? Because I have never once mentioned the topic. But if you must know my view of the subject Go read Romans and everything the book of Romans says on the subject I am in 1000% agreement. So don't throw your stupid homosexual allusion again unless you wish to confirm your own love of the subject.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You have never mentioned much on any topic beyond your silly and debased personal attacks.
            Let me guess o "wise one" you do not have to?

          • Dionesius3

            No you have mentioned no beliefs other than the belief that you are God, and EVERYONE else is not up to your standards.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Silly, self-thumbing clown.

          • Dionesius3

            For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Arminian do bother to reference the Scriptures properly and do bother to read their context…

          • Dionesius3

            A fool says in his heart…

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yea, more Russian Roulette with the Bible by Non Arminian Arminian with "feather like" talk…
            So from sloppy cut up job about Phariseeism you have moved to partially quote Psalm 14:1
            "sage" do you realize that that mutilated part by you refers to unbelievers? Not that this would bother you as long as you can engage in your slander blunder.

            How about you deal with the text you hate and avoid that pulverizes your Romanism wake theology?

            "19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

            ~ Romans 9:19-24

            See vessels PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION above?
            See vessels PREPARED FOR GLORY AND MERCY above?

            No matter how you lie, twist and turn you cannot avoid Gods's truth which Calvinism presents and teaches for it is simple the Gospel nicknamed that way to distinguish it from Romanism largely present in your beliefs.

          • Dionesius3

            Why does it so bother you that God offers salvation to all. It does not mean all will hear

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            It does not bother me at all for I know it is not in the Word. What bothers me is to see somebody like you cramming it there because you prefer that idea and that "god".

          • Dionesius3

            Cramming, HaHaHaHaHaHaHa, that is surely your best one yet Despeville.
            Hey, I just realized was your handle on here stands for;
            Desperateforlearingville

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You wake up from your naive stupor you have placed your self in for the sake of "getting along" only…

          • JeremiahToday

            I chose the name because I proclaim the gospel and warn folks of the coming judgement (even to tears at times) and yet nobody listens. That's all. That simple.

          • lurl

            Jerre,
            No one listens because you have no truth to proclaim.

          • KYFAN

            Jeremiah, you just keep on proclaiming the the gospel. You never know who will take your words to heart. I doubt these people who get on here and argue constantly are certainly not making any unsaved person want to be a Christian for fear they may be like them! I have read of mockers and scoffers in the Bible and have met some but I can count on listening to some on this site. I come on here because there are some really good Christians and I scan past Desperville lurl and others of their ilk.

      • Dionesius3

        Quote some more Scripture, you simply prove my point more clearly.
        and just so you know I too can quote Scripture;
        "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
        Proverbs 15:1

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          We cannot prove anything to man who values traditions of men more than the Scriptures. How is any of what you quoted changes the very nature of the Word and that it shatters and cuts through the lies of men like a hammer and sword the very things you mock and ridicule?

          • Dionesius3

            What did I quote that is "Man's Traditions"? Is the book of Proverbs not in your version of Scripture?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Beat around the bushes more and have fun with it. What you avoid, ignore, despise and run from STANDS:

            "“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"
            ~ Jeremiah 23:29

            "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
            ~ Hebrews 4:12

          • Dionesius3

            What am I to argue with?
            I love and agree with Every verse of Scripture.
            You on the other hand have a real issue with a number of passages all of which have been quoted verbatim in response to your various posts.
            Do I need to list them for you again?
            I am not a Calvinist, I am Not an Arminian. But you will not allow anyone to be anything but your little lapdog.
            If they don't espouse your views they are less than Human and Less than You.
            Wake up Brother!

          • Dionesius3

            You beat around this bush you Pharisee;
            Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
            9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

            10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

            11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

            12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

            13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

            14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Clown, Pharisee is a person who believes that through his effort he secured something with God.
            I am in fact on the opposite side of a spectrum – a sinner in daily need of Grace of God and trusting only in His righteousness and not my. Not that you would care about the difference because you are here to lie, smear, and misrepresent for the sake of your clown ego.

          • Dionesius3

            If you are not a Pharisee then why do you attack someone who does not hold the same views you have? Did not the Pharisees do exactly the same thing? Yes they did, and that is how you are a modern day Pharisee. You are also a Legalist of the highest order. Because you can not tolerate Anyone who holds a different view from you.
            Look back to the original post I made about Calvinist, this entire discussion proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I said is Absolute Truth.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            For a simpleton who plays a Russian Bible Roulette evryone who does not agree with him must be "bad". Since Pharisees were bad then "boom" simpleton found a connection. No matter how shallow, stupid and context violating as long as it serves simpleton's emotional needs and placates his religious traditions…

            Eat this:

            "But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation IS FROM THE LORD."
            ~ Jonah 2:9

          • Dionesius3

            Love it, every word is wonderful, I know salvation is from the Lord, have known most of my life. Anything else you wish to say?

          • Dionesius3

            When are you going to respond to this;
            Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
            9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

            10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

            11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

            12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

            13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

            14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            There is nothing to respond to here. That was not the topic of "hammer" or "sword"… All this is is your private ego interpolation on the text that you want to use to attack me in your sin and ignorance.

          • Dionesius3

            When have I mocked or ridiculed one single verse of Scripture?
            You on the other hand have done exactly that, you said that Proverbs was foolishness, You said I Peter was snake like, and you won' t lcomment at all on the passage from Luke.
            Who is ignoring the facts?
            Who is changing the very nature of the Word?
            Despeville that's who.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I said your usage of proverbs is foolishness because it is not a text that qualifies the Gospel and how it should be presented which you still do not understand. Yes, you are acting like a snake twisting and manipulating and abusing the Word for the sake of your small ego and implying Phariseeism to anyone who does not agree with your childish views. How old are you? 23 or something with some stint in some seminary which you re-imagine as MDiv?

          • Dionesius3

            I am a great deal older and wiser than you. The entire discussion has proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. And why does it bother you what my education level is? One thing is certain, and that one thing is also clear to all who read these posts, that what I said in my first post is Absolute Truth.
            Calvinist can not abide anyone who differs one iota from the Divine and Inspired words of John Calvin. And Calvinist have a Major inferiority complex when it comes to allowing any discussion that does not follow Reformed theology perfectly.
            Now I suppose that this comment is "Abusing and twisting Scripture" according to you as well.
            All Calvinist are SOOOO predictable.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Hmmm you display a great deal of humility kiddo… Nope, you are actually contradicting yourself with every single post. Let us quickly juxtapose your silly and contradictory statements again:

            'A "Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius The Third

            Versus:

            "I am a great deal older and wiser than you."
            ~ Dionesius The Third

            Compelling. Is it not? :) I am sorry to discover that I have wasted so much time to argue with a silly, chaotic internet clown as you are. who will not even have enough honesty and integrity to own up to what he believes i.e. his Arminianism. Do not skip college again.

        • lurl

          Doney,
          Quoting and applying words that are useless and do not bear any truths will not be heard.
          That goes for any field of study.

        • HelenofTroy

          My first thumbs up for Dion, EVER. Very nice.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        How is that erasing the nature of God's Word so avoided by you?

        • Dionesius3

          I am the only person in this discussion who has consistently quoted Scripture. You have consistently ignored and said that I offer no Real proof.
          Who is the person with no proof and no Scripture?
          Despeville that's who

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I refuse to interact with a guy who is self thumbing himself…

        • Dionesius3

          Where's your Scripture? Or any real proof of the veracity of the claims of Calvinism?
          Here's mine and just so you know Calvinist are Pharisees;
          Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
          9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

          10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

          11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

          12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

          13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

          14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are a sad clown with injured ego on a personal trip abusing the Word for your personal vain gain…

          • Dionesius3

            How is quoting Scripture Abuse?
            Show me where my interpretation is wrong.
            If you can.
            And read this verse;
            For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            It is Dinonsense if you rip it out of a context and slap it against somebody solely and exclusively because you do not like him and not for proven known for sure contextual reasons. Do refer Scriptures properly… There is no chance you are an "MDiv" as you have lied before. No MDiv would do such a thing as you do. I have three rules of biblical hermeneutics MDiv wanna be. Here they are:

            #1. Context.
            #2. Context.
            #3.Context.

            Easy to remember.

          • Dionesius3

            No des you have ONE RULE that is "Is this found in my precious Calvinistic commentaries or not"
            If it is there you defend it with tooth and nail and shout it till all voices are silenced.
            That is despeville's one rule of Biblical Interpretation.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More useless, meaningless, shallow ranting from unprepared defender of Arminianism who is a "non Arminian"… :)

            Eat this:

            "But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation IS FROM THE LORD."
            ~ Jonah 2:9

          • Dionesius3

            Salvation is from the Lord, Abosolutely, not from Despeville, nor John Calvin, nor Simple minded fool's who think only they shall be in Glory.
            Why can't a Calvinist shut up? Because they are afraid if they don't keep talking God will be angry with them.
            They also have a great desire to keep the focus off their own NASTY history.
            Such as how Calvinist doctrine was the main cause of the Civil War.
            OOPS, I have really done it now!!
            I play the history card on Despeville.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More imbecilic assertion from "feather talker" Non Arminian Arminian. How about you address the Scriptures quoted to you that you hide and run from? Like Romans 9.Like John 6? Like Revelation 5? etc? Ad hominem and snake like behavior will get you nowhere and does nothing in contributing anything useful and intelligent for the sake of this discussion.

          • Dionesius3

            I love all those verses and read them regularly, what part of them are you having difficulty with? I will gladly clear up any questions you might have about them if you will just ask.

  • msjallen

    Covenant theology does not teach the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. The Filling of the Spirit did not exist in the Dispensation of Israel. The Filling of the Spirit started with Jesus Christ in His humanity (Hypostatic Union) as we are the Church Age. They do teach salvation correctly but after salvation is where they go back to the teaching of the Mosaic Law and other OT teachings. They believe the OT & NT are the same and fail to explain the Doctrine of the Mystery. They believe in tithing and human works after salvation. Calvinism believes in limited atonement because they were already elected and God works on the will of man to believe – this is wrong. http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      What a bunch of lies, misrepresentations, scare mongering and bogeyman shaking.

      'They believe the OT & NT are the same and fail to explain the Doctrine of the Mystery. They believe in tithing and human works after salvation. "

      This a above is a staggering example of lie and incredible ignorance which still make you a liar.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      "Covenant theology does not teach the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Church Age."

      What a LIE…You have no idea what you are mumbling about besides the straw man and misrepresentation, and pathogen you have been infected with for the sake of your dispensationalism and its traditions. Sad.

      "An Introduction to the Gospel – A Covenant Theology Primer" ~ http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/simplec

      • tbone

        I agree with you Despeville. We must always contend for the faith and never take heresy sitting down.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Indeed.

          "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, to exhort you, that ye should earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith, which was once given unto the Saints." ~ Jude 1:3 Geneva Bible

    • Kalev

      Desp will cyber-stalk your blogs forever now and call you all kind of unkind things.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Yea, let's run to mama and lets jump on kumbaya wagon so your Phariseeism can join hands with her Gnosticism.
        How pathetic you can get Caleb?

      • msjallen

        Don't worry, Kalev, because he already does and he is inconsequential to me since most of what he believes is false. When one believer judges another believer they will be disciplined and the one who is judged will get the blessing. I make my comments here and Des makes his; no problem. God is the judge.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          "When one believer judges another believer they will be disciplined and the one who is judged will get the blessing."
          ~ msjallen

          Versus:

          "Calvinism believes in limited atonement because they were already elected and God works on the will of man to believe – this is wrong. "
          ~ msjallen

          What a blind hypocrite and liar you truly are as demonstrated above in quotes from you.You are a liar and as a liar you cannot possibly be consistent in your lies. You "judge" and send to hell whole swaths of Christian Church only to proceed in your nauseating hypocrisy with your disclaimer about "judging"… What a farce and stupefying manipulation you engage in. No wonder you find so much in common with Phariseeism of Kalev for your Gnosticism has much in common with Jewish myths he feeds on.

        • tbone

          I believe that Desepeville is sent here by God to straighten out a lot of false teaching. Maybe you should consider the fact that you don't know all truth and humble yourself.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Of course, the idea that you do not know the truth is never a consideration. It is always the other person who is wrong.

          • Glen S

            Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

          • http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22306708/Jn6.37.png Despeville

            Does not get any funnier that hear atheist spin about the truth while his worldview a priori denies the existence of absolute, universal, abstract and immaterial truth. You are a permanent schizophrenic Dixon and the only wake up you will get is in the hour of your death.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Since my worldview does not deny anything except that your idea or any idea of god is absurd, you are merely posting nonsense again. There may be some universal truths. However, they did not come from your "god".

            You believe in a worldview that says killing babies in a flood is just. That slavery is just. That women are the property of men. That the sun or the world can stop. That donkeys and snakes can talk. You believe in nonsense.

            All your arguing about which verse is more relevant is nonsense. It makes no difference if the verses conform to one point of view. The verses are fiction.

            Jesus is not coming back. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

            You may not not like the reality of the world, but it is still the reality of the world.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            and btw, you are way funnier.

          • http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22306708/Jn6.37.png Despeville

            "It makes no difference if the verses conform to one point of view."

            This is the terrifying statement of intellectual and spiritual lobotomy that has been done on you Dixon.
            You are utterly and completely irrational. paranoid and schizophrenic and this statement is yet another emphasis to your complete foolishness and illogical, absurd, spasmodic bias.

    • JeremiahToday

      Jesuits of Rome began the dispensational bologna…and the Mystery was not actually a mystery in that, Paul reveals this "mystery" straight from the OLD Testament quoting verses that the Jew just couldn't fathom on the account of their hatred for the goyim (gentiles)…"Calvinism" is the most biblically sound doctrine set forth in the ULTIMATE Systematic theology containing the GREATEST hermeneutic and exegesis since the days of the Apostles…but, the natural man cannot recieve the things of Theos, neither can he KNOW them, for they are Spiritually discerned…a prayer from me goes out to those making these unlearned, ignorant comments.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Thanks and indeed brother. Msjallen specializes in 160 year old dispensationalism and Gnostic attacks on the Gospel. She particularly despises and opposes bloody cross and blood shed by Christ for redemption of sins just as any proper Gnostic did and still does.

      • msjallen

        Calvinist believe that God has chosen who are to saved and man’s volition to sin or believe in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with God giving us a choice. Covenant theology believes the church and Israel are the same. Check out the following web site: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/

        I John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
        2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          "Calvinist believe that God has chosen who are to saved and man’s volition to sin or believe in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with God giving us a choice. "

          No, that is not what Calvinists believe, That is a caricature and misrepresentation of Reformed Faith and a further testimony tou your blatant ignorance and hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the sake of your Dispensational Gnosticism that you propagate here. You are a Gnostic as it was documented here in the past.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          You are so incredibly ignorant of what you spit on and bark at and quoting anything from:
          http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ a known KJVonlyism cultist site for ignorant where NIV and other translations are presented as "products of vast satanic conspiracy" only further underscores your utter ignorance, confused religiosity and sensational approach to things you do not understand and never learned properly.

        • JeremiahToday

          Instead of reading what a "non-Calvinist" believes what "Calvinists" believe, why don't you ask a "Calvinist"? People are definitely strange…you see, Jesus-is-Savior.com website seems to have a tale-bearer/ gossiper for it's head…that's like going to everyone at work about a fellow employee and asking what the fellow employee is like, but never actually going to the fellow employee in question to find out what the person is like for yourself. Seems a bit like high school child's play to me.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Jeremiah,

            Timely and to the point observation. See the reason is simple folks like msjallen are not interested in understanding and knowing what truly the other side believes in and they will never take time to study it.
            All they want is a "quick snippet" a caricature, a misrepresentation of the other side for it is easy to attack
            for them and they actually do not have to labor in understanding the other side. In contrast to msjallen I have been a dispensationalist. I have been attending dispensationalist church and had a substantial dispensational library and actually read from classic dispensational theologians. One side is willing to read and understand the other side but the other side is not and all they want to do is a quick Google search find something that attacks Christian Reformed faith and copy and paste it never actually bothring to think it through and taking time to study it to make sure the they do not attack the truth of the Gospel. Yet they do just that.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Humpty, there is no "truth" in the gospels. You are debating fiction.

          • msjallen

            Jeremiah, I have a great many notes on Calvinism — both what they believe and the explanation from a Biblical scholar whom I have studied under since 1972. He is well versed in Biblical Theology and I trust what he teaches. I have been exposed to many different Bible teachers that I have questioned but not my pastor because he proves everything he teaches through Hermeneutics: comparing scripture with scripture from the original languages. Another site might help you…
            http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You have "notes"??? Again, you have "notes"??? What have you actually read from what you attack? What works have you read from Reformers and Reformation? Your "notes" are not it. It is only an opinion of ONE person i.e. your mythical "Biblical scholar whom I have studied under since 1972"… By the way your complete fascination with this one person or family is a classic tell tale sign of a cult of personality…

            "I have been exposed to many different Bible teachers"

            You have been "exposed"? What does this mean? What have you actually READ from what you smear and attack? I can give you a long list of dispensationalist I have read. Can you do any of that with Reformed that you attack? I can guarantee that you cannot all you have is your "notes" from one or two guys and vague "exposure"….

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "I have a great many notes on Calvinism"

            People, just do not read anything ever from the history of Church. Just take "great many notes" from some guy who knows everything and read everything so you may save time as msjallen did…

      • tboneq

        i gave you a thumbs up Jeremiah and it zeroed out the negative. Lets hope you get a lot more thumbs up.

    • http://twitter.com/lambsev11 @lambsev11

      The question is what do you teach? Frankly, the Bible is what we ought to teach. After all, if we have Him, the Holy Spirit is given to us TODAY as our Rabbi. Having said this, you can put the Institutes aside and pick up your Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. Or do as I do: study several English translations and a bible software with Strong's concordance. But don't leave the Holy Spirit outside the study; if you do you WILL end in heresy.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        You make a serial assumptions here and bogus ones too. Have you lives with Reformed for last 5 years and know what they read? Besides What do you think Institutes of Christian Faith is exposition of and what is quoted there thousands of times? What gives you right to assert that Reformed do not study Greek, Hebrew? And you have audacity to assert Holy Spirit to your unfounded assertions? For crying out loud can you be more deceiving and deceitful?

      • JeremiahToday

        yes…use some language materials, then you may see what passages like II Peter 3:9 and Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. I could post a few others but those should suffice to get you started and hopefully see the REAL meaning of those verses IN CONTEXT.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      "Calvinism believes in limited atonement because they were already elected and God works on the will of man to believe – this is wrong. "
      msjallen

      Versus:

      "…God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.:

      ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

      I guess msjallen, and her "Biblical scholar whom I have studied under since 1972" form some tiny sect somewhere and "Holy Spirit" know not only better but something completely opposite to what one of the greatest preachers of the Gospel ever knew and Holy Spirit that guided him in his personal preaching to 20 million people… Or is it possible that Spurgeon, Calvin, Luther, Tyndale, Waldo, Augustine, Athansius, Apostles, Paul and Jesus Christ were actually right? Hmmm perhaps msjallen and her "Biblical scholar whom I have studied under since 1972" are listening to a altogether different spirit or rather aeon, or an emanation out of so many in Gnosticism pathogen of which is so evident in msjallen beliefs…. Which one you are betting on?

    • lurl

      Ms jellan"
      Guess not too many Presbyterians like you or want to be around you.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        I have to conquer with that. Weird, that is number three.

        • lurl

          Stop counting. There is another person here doing that for you.
          Don't concur with me too often as people will start talking.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are on to something. If you look below I already have been accused by myrtleunfertile or something of being "Agnostic"… Must be your fault :)

          • lurl

            Obviously my intense rhetoric has caused you to have a change of heart. Which I will assume is red and not black as Ms. Myrtle the turtle claims.
            But then, I have actually seen and held a real heart.

  • Q Davis

    Q, thought you may be interested.

  • Marilyn Vonderheide

    For my taste there is over emphasis on Calvinism . Are we not all one in Christ. Seems to me Paul warned against this type of emphasis in 1Corn. 3

    • http://twitter.com/lambsev11 @lambsev11

      Yes he did! and 1 Corinthians is the definitive book against divisive factions better known as denominations. The first three chapters and the second half of Ch. 11 are essential for understanding the Lord's truth of John 17.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        And what is your nondenominational denomination if you care to state?

    • Jack

      All one in Christ?
      Even those that have rejected him?

      Seems like some folks can't deal with the fact that some will be damned regardless of whether they think it's "fair."

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Yes, it is a notion of "democracy" superimposed on the Biblical Gospel.

  • http://twitter.com/lambsev11 @lambsev11

    Calvinism and Arminius are passed on. The Bible is God's word, living and active, sharper than any two edged sword… But from Phillip Schaff we have this sweet quote which to me is reason enough to favor the Bible above all other texts:

    "Calvinism emphasized divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasized human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine that Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them." Phillip Schaff

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      I did not know that Phillip Schaff (I am glad that you have his work) was an inspired apostle…

    • JeremiahToday

      Actually, either the LORD is Salvation, or you (man) are salvation. My Bible says the LORD is Salvation, and I can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that man is salvation. Maybe you can help??

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Yes, I would like to learn that too…

    • lurl

      Lamming:
      Since you have carved out all these special niches for the different version of xianity and its followers what do you think of Methodists? Anglicans? Lutherans? Church of Christ? Seventh Day Adventists, Latter Day Saints, and so on.
      You seem to want to knock the groups that have leaders and those named after methods.

  • http://twitter.com/lambsev11 @lambsev11
  • Parish

    Dear George and Co, if all this is the case, then hit the street and start preaching, that is what Sts Paul, Peter, did, it is what Wesley did. So quit wasting the precious breath that God gave you and do it yourself, in a winsome way. By the way, brush your teeth, bathe, and present yourself in a respectable way, and preach the hard truth in love, to the unsaved, unrepentant masses, to turn from sin, and Embrace Christ as in the king James, discipling in the Way as you go. I say king James because it was not all liberalized… Go you busy body!!!!

  • Jack

    For Robert De Leon:
    "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    You're like one of those folks that argue for Universalism or that you can be a practicing homosexual while claiming to be a Christian.

    What you prefer or find just is meaningless, you're not in charge.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      One thing about those religious folks is that they just as homosexuals scream: "hate, hate, hate all I see is hate" as if their screams could possibly erased the obvious fact that they do not and will not presented arguments and facts.

      • Dionesius3

        And Again Despeville you have shown yourself to be the one who will respond to no Biblical fact;
        II Peter 1:1-7
        1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of GOD AND OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST:
        2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD AND OF JESUS OUR LORD,
        3. According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue:
        4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
        5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
        6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience, GODLINESS;
        7. And to GODLINESS brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness, charity.
        8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

        • Dionesius3

          Where is the "brotherly love" or the Charity?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yes good question let us look for it here:

            "Again there you go making your Calvinist Assumptions and knowing NOTHING."
            ~ Dionesius3

            Versus:

            ""Smugness" and "Superiority" which neither exemplifies Christ nor draws people to want to know more."
            ~ Dionesius3

            "Why don't you for once in your life simply state your case and leave out your personal attacks. "
            ~ Dionesius3

            I think those quotes from you speak for themselves..

          • Dionesius3

            Where is your Scripture?
            Here is mine, and by the way Calvinist are Pharisees;
            Makes me mindful of the passage from Luke 18
            9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

            10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

            11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

            12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

            13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

            14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

      • Jack

        It is a very modern and ridiculous idea that hate is somehow bad.
        Hate is the proper context for many things, always has been, always will be.

        Homosexuals see nothing but hate because the Lord made it quite clear it was something to be abhorred and was against his will.

        Their mantra is simply effective propaganda for the thoughtless.

        • Dionesius3

          Hey Jack I've noticed something very telling about your posts on this site. You mention homosexuality almost every third post. Is the subject a fascination of yours? Because I have never once mentioned the topic. But if you must know my view of the subject Go read Romans and everything the book of Romans says on the subject I am in 1000% agreement. So don't throw your stupid homosexual allusion again unless you wish to confirm your own love of the subject.

          • jack

            It's the same argument.
            Party B wants to believe and do what they wish that is contrary to the rules/wishes laid down by their creator, party A, someone they falsely claim to believe is superior to them.

            It wouldn't matter if it were theft or adultery or murder, that example just happens to be a relevant one at the moment as most "Evangelicals," and many others that falsely call themselves Christians are running around openly defying their Creator and his Word while claiming to be faithful Christians.

            It's the same formula used over and over.

            You really should just go and join the Unitarian Church or something similar, you'd be happier and your beliefs would fit in better there.

          • Dionesius3

            I don't think any Unitarian church would allow someone who believes in the Bible and is an Ultra Conservative in all matters of faith. They have no love for those who know Christ as Lord and Savior. But neither do Calvinist care for someone who does not tow the party line. So I am left to attend a church which has not yet sold out to either the liberals or the Calvinist.
            But you probably have never heard of my church it starts with a B and it ends with aptist.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "…and is an Ultra Conservative in all matters of faith."

            That would be funny if it would not concern the matters of eternal importance.

          • jack

            I know of no Baptist church that is nothing more than a political assembly.

          • Dionesius3

            And you are all-knowing Jack

          • jack

            Buddy, before I got in the oil biz I worked many years for a company specializing in church furniture/supplies/baptistries and eventually became a part owner.

            I have dealt with more churches than probably anyone you know, and dealt with them in business where your principles meet the road and show your true colors.

            I don't claim to be all knowing, you applied that moniker. However, my original statement stands, I know of no Baptist church that is nothing more than a political assembly.

            I have dealt with thousands of churches bub.

          • Dionesius3

            As I said the all-knowing Jack has spoken so it must be true.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Mockery is your vice and domain. Sad.

          • Dionesius3

            Questioning someone's salvation are we

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :) Are you really enjoying lying and misrepresentation? Where did I say anything of that sort above?

          • Dionesius3

            How can you be so deceiving and dishonest and call yourself a child of God? How I ask? By Despeville

          • Dionesius3

            By the way what did you not understand about my belief on homosexuality?
             24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

             25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

             26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

             27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

          • Dionesius3

            Kind of speaks for itself. God does not allow ANY variation from the standard of purity, Holiness, and one man with one woman for life.

        • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

          The bible says that your god is against wearing blended fabrics and eating shellfish. The bible is full of absurd notions of what is good and bad.

          • Dionesius3

            Your head is full of notions about you own importance. But that does not mean that God does not Love you and want you to become his Child. Stop fighting the Word of God and just try living and applying what it teaches to your life. You will discover, as many before you have, that God's way is by far the best way.
            What other religion on the face of the earth has this as it's highest rule;
            "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" ?
            You don't find that in any other World Religion.
            You don't find that in your own heart naturally.
            You ONLY find that in the one True Religion.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Dixon, that is your "dod" as in your "dod delusions" only… I am being tempted to start using Dodxon for you…

    • Dionesius3

      Dear Jack,You have Again proven my point beyond my wildest dreams.
      You are showing exactly the spirit and attitude that my original post points out.
      You have no understanding of these verses;

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Let us compare your assertion of:

        "You are showing exactly the spirit and attitude that my original post points out. "
        ~Dionesisu3

        With your other statement of:

        ""Smugness" and "Pride" beyond belief. A recent prayer by Desperville;"
        ~~Dionesisu3

        What do we get? A sorry example of inconsistency and a devious sample of deception…

        • Dionesius3

          Again there you go with your labels, I am either in your camp or I am in the other camp.
          Give me a break, you are a fool if you think there are only two positions on this issue.
          Do a little research yourself for a change.
          And as for being in Space well brother you are "definely" in space, like outer space if you think you have the market cornered with your point of view.
          Reformed, what pray tell are you Reformed from?
          I am a Biblical believer, and I worship God according to Scripture, I have a Master of Divinity Degree from a "Reformed" University. And I have studied the Scripture for years.
          There is not any 5 point Calvinism in the Bible Nor is there any 7 point Calvinism, Nor is there any 9 point Calvinism. There is Also No Arminianism in the Scripture.
          You have a square hole and are trying to put a round peg into it. It just won't fit.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Those are not "my labels"… Those are actual quotes from you. And now you who asserted so much about bad, mean, nasty Calvinists proceed to use names calling… How inconsistent and hypocritical you can get? Your MDiv means nothing particularly with the results you show for it. You are a collection of ad hominems or arguing from appeal to in precised authority repeating cliches that as a MDiv you should now better (if you are truly MDiv) I did not say a word about 5 points and 5 points is only a shorthand, a starting point which you should know better as an MDiv… You are contradicting yourself with every post you thumb up for yourself.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            What a hogwash. There is no way you could be an MDiv… and if so you must have been asleep through half of the lectures. Go ahead and self thumb yourself more. It is a fitting commentary to your vain man centered theology.

          • Dionesius3

            There is no way you have ever had an original thought. If Calvin did not say it or quote it then it is not ever going to enter your mind.
            You are funny man and SOOOO
            Predictable.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            There is no way you are MDiv… You are to dumb for that.

          • Dionesius3

            Thanks, des, But alas what are your qualifications?

          • lurl

            Question!
            What is a Reformed University? I find the two in direct competition.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :) Good observation Lurl… There is no such thing as "Reformed University"…. There are however Reformed Seminaries and some of them are really good ones like Westminster on the right coast or Westminster on the left cost… (my euphemisms for East and West coasts). I caught something I missed from the story making by Dionesius the 3rd.

          • Dionesius3

            A university whose teaching staff all adhere to the "Reformed" tradition.
            Any other silly questions?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Hahahahahaa there is no such University kiddo due to a simple fact that "adhere" and "tradition" is not the same as Official Statement of Faith and reflecting it policies and mission. You are no more Reformed than Mitt Romney is… :)

          • Dionesius3

            There you go again speaking about that which you do not know.
            As far as you comments on seminaries you are correct. As for your other comments you are dead wrong.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Silly, there is no "Reformed University" in this country and it has not been in hundreds of years and neither you have graduated form one so stop making up stories. You are insulting the audience here.

          • Dionesius3

            And I never claimed to be Reformed don't need it but I did study under all Reformed professors. Ever heard of Langston Hughes? Probably haven't but he is a very well known Reformed scholar and professor. And how. About Kenneth a. Mathews A World renoun Hebrew scholar. And Frank Thielman a well known New Testament scholar and Reformed at that.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Lies, lies, lies… I understand. It is hard to lie consistently, especially when one is confused as you are. So now we need to move from your assertion of "I have studied in Reformed University" due to its historical extinction and long ago to "Ever heard of Langston Hughes?"…

            Ever heard about shifting topics and shifting eyes?

          • Dionesius3

            Excuse my mistake of typing Hughes when I meant Haygood. And ignore the other names in the list just as you ignore all reason. Tell us again how I lie and twist Scripture please. That is the extent of your argument and the extent of your knowledge on the subject.
            You have a wonderful hobby being an internet Calvinist troll. You are likely a Ron Paul supporter as well. Because you employ the same methods they do with opposing opinions.
            And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You lie and twist all the time as you do with your Baptist Arminian mistranslated "WHO SO EVER" which is also pronounced that way in your clueless Arminian circles.

          • lurl

            "And the Spirit and the bride say"
            Dionne….
            This looks suspiciously like the beginning of soliloquies towards your love of the Bride of Frankenstein.

          • lurl

            I certainly have heard of Langston Hughes. But never in relationship to any reformed university.
            I believe Paul has been sitting in the wrong pew.

          • lurl

            Of course I have many more "silly" questions? A question from anyone not of your obviously skewed belief system would always be considered "silly."
            Where would one find a Reformed University where all the staff and common folk be reformed and of what should they be reformed?
            I would love to visit the university where all speak in one uniform, single reformed
            voice.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            How about you actually share the name of this alleged "Reformed University" where you allegedly attended. Do that.

          • Dionesius3

            Look up the professors on the Internet and you might learn something

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Hahahahahahahhaaa, how cliche you are. I do not care about those professors. I care what you mumble and rant about here without any clue.
            Obviously you did a very poor job trying to learn from them.

          • lurl

            How can he share the name of the reformed university?
            Are you not aware that the one he attended (?) is unlisted.

          • Dionesius3

            Look it up on the internet mental moron. The three professors named above will be more than sufficient to find the name.

          • xloni

            You are rather unkind. I didn't fine anylisting for reformed universities.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            There is not any and for a very, very long time. Dinonsense is making up stories as he goes with his fables and personal attacks.

        • Dionesius3

          Where's the Scripture????

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Where you have left it…

      • Jack

        I pity you if your wildest dreams consist of thinking you bested some anonymous person on an internet discussion board.

        • Dionesius3

          So you admit defeat?
          How novel a Calvinist who knows he's been schooled.

          • Jack

            Nope. I stated I had pity on you., a much different thing.

            Despeville, I think that is the root of the problem. They simply do not understand English ;-)

          • Dionesius3

            Hey Jack I've noticed something very telling about your posts on this site. You mention homosexuality almost every third post. Is the subject a fascination of yours? Because I have never once mentioned the topic. But if you must know my view of the subject Go read Romans and everything the book of Romans says on the subject I am in 1000% agreement. So don't throw your stupid homosexual allusion again unless you wish to confirm your own love of the subject.
            You are very welcome

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Dinonsense rubbish is your only domain.

          • Dionesius3

            Despeville, Calvin is your only domain!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are in a wake of Romanism whether you know it or not…

            "…God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.:

            ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          • Dionesius3

            Spurgeon would puke on your attitude, and pride.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Another pious, "feather like" response from Non Arminian Arminian who loves to spit on people and never honestly address the arguments presented by them. What a disgrace you are. Your self thumbing is incredibly testifying to your shallow, narcissistic religiosity of KJVonlyism cult Baptist.

          • Dionesius3

            I couldn't care less what version you or anyone else uses. Translate it yourself and make it say whatever you think it ought to say, but it still doesn't change the fact that you think you are the ONLY one who is SAVED. And as long as I disagree with you you believed I am lost.

          • jack

            "And as long as I disagree with you you believed I am lost. "

            Wrong as usual. Salvation doesn't come from us or from your beliefs, it comes from the Lord.

            Whether you and I agree has no bearing whatsoever on your salvation.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Spot on Jack… :) Another kiddo with inferiority complex as if this was about him, or you or me and not the Gospel.

          • Jack

            At the root of their problem is the fact that they simply CAN NOT deal with the fact that the rules have been set and what they want or feel is "just" simply doesn't matter.

          • Dionesius3

            I love the way you use "they" and "their" it kind of shows what your true feelings are doesn't it. You believe that you and your friends are "saved" and anyone who disagrees with you is " lost".
            Why not just come right out and say it? If that is indeed your belief.
            It will simply show just how pharisaical you really are and how legalistic your belief system is.
            Because there could not possibly be someone who believes in the perfect Word of God and the salvation that comes of faith alone unless they also espouse all the points of John Calvin and his Divinely Inspired teachings.

          • jack

            Wrong as usual. We believe the Elect are saved and the rest are lost. It is God's will and what we "agree" with has nothing to do with it.

            Whether I "agree" or not changes nothing.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Indeed Jack. Arminian Baptists believe that God is like a president and they get to vote for Him…

          • jack

            The argument does get tiring after a while.
            The Arminian argues that the rise of the Sun is dependent on his wishes.
            Since the Sun rises everyday regardless the Arminian thinks he's right, logical fallacy.

          • Dionesius3

            Normal people have the ability to reason, Calvinist check their commentaries in order to find what they ought to think. I prefer to consult the Word of God first. You consult Calvin we will see what the results will be.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You have shown some staggering examples of utter stupidity, ignorance and urban myths making so far so you have no goods to deliver despite your marketing. You are in the wake of papists whether you realize that or not:

            "…God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.:

            ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          • Dionesius3

            The only Papist in this argument is you Despeville. You will have no other beliefs than your own. You can't present any reasonable statement of faith that allows ANY dis agreement.
            I can let you live and believe what ever you wish, but you can't abide even one variance from the VILE doctrines of JOHN CALVIN.
            AND THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN saying from the very start of this conversation. You have More than proved your point.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            hahaa in the end you are a shallow, empty, vain parrot who cannot produce anything of substance but mimic the other side only. What a disgrace you are. Talk more in your "feather like" Non Arminian Arminian useless and meaningless rant of KJVonlyism cult.

          • Dionesius3

            You are the KJV cultist. You are in the CULT of CALVIN.

          • Dionesius3

            Wrong as usual, you believe ONLY YOU are saved. And EVERYONE who differs in ANY way from you is lost. THAT is exactly why no one wants to listen to your words.
            They are filled to the brim with yourself, and the importance of your legalism.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            What a helpless hypocrite you are. We have [resented you with many Scriptural proofs and counter arguments to your mutilation of Scriptures where you zero in on a word "who so ever" that for the most part cannot be derived from Greek texts and if it is and more like "everyone" IT IS ALWAYS QUALIFIED by the sentence it is in and immediate and broader context as referring to SAVED BELIEVING PEOPLE OF GOD and not just universalistic "everyone"

          • Dionesius3

            There you go making stupid assumptions based on you Calvinistic garbage can. When did I ever say it did not refer to SAVED BELIEVING PEOPLE OF GOD ? The discussion is not about whether it refers to SAVED people the discussion is about whom may come. AND THE GREEK AND THE ENGLISH SAYS "Who ever" , ANYONE, Those whom God has called, not those whom Despeville thinks God has called.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Are you that confused or just play games? Of course it is about who may come and who may come is QUALIFIED by their faith that was given to them according to the will of God and not theirs:

            ' All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." ~ John 6.37

            "Those whom God has called, "

            So they do not actually "decide" for themselves Non Arminian Arminian with "feather like" talk? Make up your mind then…

          • Dionesius3

            When did I say they decided? Again your stupid Calvinist beliefs have led you to assume something not in evidence. Yes, God calls, and Yes those he calls will come.
            But they do so without you, John Calvin, or God forcing anything.
            Some say they "decided", some like myself recognize that there really was no other choice that could be made. It matters not what I you or anyone else thinks or says, the fact remains the "call" was made and the hearer followed.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Why did god HAVE to sacrifice Jesus?

            It shows the limitations of the biblical god. Since he is supposedly all powerful, it is amusing to hear that Jesus had to be sacrificed. Why is an all powerful god limited to this one choice in a creation of his own design that is entirely under his power? If there really was only one way to fix the problem, then god is not all powerful, because he was limited to this one solution. If there was another way to do it, but he was unaware of it, then he is not all knowing. If there was another way and he was aware of it, then he is malevolent.

            One of the big problems with the story is that Christians really do not understand what all powerful and all knowing really implies.

          • Dionesius3

            Are you limited by the fact that you HAVE to breathe? Are you limited by the fact that you HAVE to eat, drink, and sleep?
            No you are not these things are necessary condiitions for life itself. There are some things that must follow certain actions. You cut your hand, you must bleed, if you don't then there is no life in the body.
            Spiritually speaking, the question you pose is like the questions I posed to you. It's not a matter that God was unable to do it a "different" way. It was that the way he did it was THE ONLY way it could be done.
            If you don't breathe, you most assuredly will die, it matters not whether there might theoretically be a different way, there is no other way.
            And rest assured that God knows all there is to know about how sin could be dealt with. Just as a good medical doctor should know all there is to know about the cure for an disease, but in some cases the doctor's knowledge is irrelevant, because the patient will not take his advice.
            Is it then the doctor's fault that the patient dies?
            NO of course not, he has done all that he can possibly do to insure the patient's survival.
            The same is true of God.

          • lurl

            One can find politics and all its corruption just everywhere now days!

          • Dionesius3

            I really enjoy your silly non-sequiters. But there seems to be no point to your being here.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "…God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.:

            ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          • Dionesius3

            “God is not responsible for anyone who goes to hell.” Every man is responsible for his own sin and the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Men go to hell because that is God’s decretive will. Here is the point of contention with that argument. If ALL men deserve to die and go to hell and God can save them all but He does not, then He is responsible for those who do not make it to heaven. There is no way to dance around that fact. Calvinists ought to man up and just admit that fact. The answer that I have heard on a number of occasions is, “The question is for me is, not why God saved some but why God saved any.” Well how do you do; that is like asking someone, “would you like to have an orange or an apple” and he answers “I think I would like to go to the movies.”

          • Dionesius3

            Show me what addition I have made to ANY Scripture you simple minded superior.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I showed you already KJVonlyism cultist. For example, there is no "who so ever" in Revelation 22:17. It is a KJV miss-translation that Non Arminian Arminian like you loves to blow up out of proportion and build entire theology as influenced by Romanism.

          • Dionesius3

            Now you call me a Kjv cultist? I couldn't care less what version you or anyone else uses. Look it up in any version and you see the same thing;
            NASB

             17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
            NIV
             17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

            Makes no difference, if you are hearing you may come. There are NO qualifiers in the GREEK or any where else except for those who follow JOHN CALVIN

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            How sadly deceived you are by your traditions. Would you please quote the Word properly? Yes, that requires QUOTATION MARKS and REFERENCE too. For the Nth time this DOES make a difference because you are taking this OUT OF CONTEXT. Verse 17 is in the context and verse 14 describes along with verse 15:

            "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
            15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
            16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
            17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

            Those who will come are THOSE who are described as BLESSED in verse 14 that are set apart from those who will not come and are on the outside in verse 15 as in: "Outside are the dogs"
            http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NT

          • Dionesius3

            And you know the difference even now don't you Desperateville, you in fact make that judgement almost every minute. I do not disagree with the verses, I am simply pointing out that God alone knows who is a dog, you I or anybody else has no clue who the dogs are. While we are in this world it is our job to win as many hearts and minds as we can and point them to Christ. If we don't we are like the lazy servants in the parable of Jesus and to the man who had received one talent he said in Matt. 25:24-30
            24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
            26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
            ;29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            ", I am simply pointing out that God alone knows who is a dog, you I or anybody else has no clue who the dogs are."

            I do agree with that and I have never said anything contrary to that or even about that in general. It is a red herring, a miss-representation on your side to say that after you realized that you cannot deny the context of Revelation 22:17 which speaks about a specific group of God's children and not just anyone. When will you be honest with yourself about his?

          • Dionesius3

            When will you realize your wrong?
            NEVER
            and that is my answer to you.
            When are you going to be honest about the history of your beloved "reformed faith"?
            It was the MAIN idea behind the institution of Slavery in the south.Slavery's main defenders were Calvinist Pastor's and teachers. And that is one of the numerous reason's why I will never embrace the theology of the "refomed calvinistic church" .

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I would like to be correct if I am in error but this is not about me but about the Gospel therefore it would be great if you could actually speak to that sense instead of smearing and attacking me as a person most of the time and especially when presented with text that you cannot answer like for example Romans 9.

            Do not assert politics or socio- economic history into any attempt of understanding the Gospel. That is just so bizarre and so dishonest. Asnwer to what you avoid:

            "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "

            Romans 9:19- 24

            Would you please stop self thumbing yourself? This is just so pathetic.

          • Dionesius3

            What do you want me to explain to you about Romans 9?
            As I have stated over and over I love EVERY verse in Romans.
            These verses make clear that GOD decides. IT says nothing about whom may become the vessels. GOD chooses. All mankind has the message. The atonement was for the sin's of the world. Only some will hear and believe. But all will have a chance. the vessels prepared for destruction are God's business not yours. He alone makes the rules. To us it looks arbitrary, to God it is simple. The message is proclaimed, the sinner either listens or rejects. God's will is fulfilled either way.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            " But all will have a chance."

            Really? How a vessel PREDESTINED FOR DESTRUCTION will have a "chance"? Could you elaborate on that? Would you please explain how a vessel – i.e. a human being PREDESTINED to DESTRUCTION can undo it and make himself or herself a vessel PREDESTINED for GLORY?

            'But all will have a chance. the vessels prepared for destruction are God's business not yours."
            "IT says nothing about whom may become the vessels."

            I never said otherwise so this is again a bogus evasion and completely besides the point.

            'These verses make clear that GOD decides"

            Make up your mind then because before you were saying that men does…

          • Dionesius3

            Calvinism presents much more than God's truth. It presents this "truth" also__"Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage"_ – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor _ And how about this one

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            More smoke on the water… How about you think why do you have to avoid obvious questions like this:

            " But all will have a chance."

            How a vessel PREDESTINED FOR DESTRUCTION will have a "chance"? Could you elaborate on that?

          • Dionesius3

            Des,
            I have already answered that question.
            Why are you continuing when yesterday you said you quit?
            Is it back on again?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            No you did not but never mind as I said most of the time you have nothing to bring to table beyond misrepresentations of what you try to condemn and criticize. That is why for the most part I am not interested in interacting with this type of rhetoric. Every time you get ambitious to be factual I might respond.

          • Dionesius3

            Des, I appreciate your constant attention.
            You are a true friend.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            My attention is to the subject and unfortunately 85% of the thread is junked already but this is how the cookie crumbles on the internet.

          • Dionesius3

            Great passage by the way taken completely out of context. Read the entire sermon this quote comes from and learn something about Baptist Belief.

          • lurl

            I understand that in the collective belief of the baptists….they are all WET!

          • Dionesius3

            Yes and you need to get wet with us sometime. It would improve you mental capacity immensely.

          • Xloni

            I don't know about others here but I have my own pool and use it frequently.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :) Do you ever invite confused Arminians who then claim they are in your pool and out of it at the same time?

  • JeremiahToday

    To all those who think the gospel is lovey dovey and fuzzy…get a clue…the Gospel is OFFENSIVE to the Natural man no matter how nice you are about it. And when the Spirit is working there will be varying emotions involved, look at Jonah, look at Elijah… look at Yshua/Jesus!!!! Sometimes He was sweet, but other times…well, you should know if you all REALLY know your Scriptures, eh?

    • Pastor Dwayne

      Look at Jonah,, His free will chose no, to the Lord . Then boarded a ship heading the opposite direction than where the Lord wanted . Then the Lord put on a little more pressure, this time Jonah's free will said yes to the Lord , and he went to
      Ninevah .
      Such is being Born from Above! God is Salvation , and Jeremiah your free will under the conviction of sin by the Holy Ghost said yes to the Lord! But just as happened to Jonah so it happens to many unbelievers , the Lord has to turn up the pressure for many to receive Him .
      Jer 23:29 the Lord's word will be like a rock upon all the prophets who His people , the Jew to not believe in His name. which is what I call Replacement theology , Des calls it Expansion , Sorry the Jews will go through the time of Jacob's Great tribulation, NOT the Church going going through. Your misconception of Dan 9:24-27 is false , once again using the replacement theory . Look out for Jer 23:29

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Interesting way of twisting the Scriptures. So the story of Jonah is a story about man's absolute "free will" Wow… I thought I have seen everything but this is all together a lower low for the abuse of the Scriptures… Going with that mutilation of your man centered pseudo gospel Dwayne we would have to assume that conversion of Paul was also about man's "free will" and Paul and allowing God to do what He wanted to do. I mean just like Jonah Paul said no to Christ in his "free will" and was killing those Christians by his "free will" then Christ showed up and Paul in his "free will" jumped of the horse and fell to the ground then calculated his options and also in "free will" "accepted Jesus" then in act of man's piety he has blinded himself for three days and later after taking time off to think this through and still in act of "free will" as well Paul decided to make himself see again and then out of his "free will" decided to be an apostle… Wow is that what you are trying to say Dwayne for you are saying same nonsense about Jonah… Wow.

        • Pastor Dwayne

          Sigh

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yes, sigh at this nonsense of yours Dwayne… Tell us how Jonah "free willed" the storm in the seas to make himself think in his "free will" and how did he "free willed" that fish to come over and swallowed him when they threw him overboard. Then how did he "free willed" the fish to spit him out on the closest beach toward the direction he did not wanted to go to begin with… Seriously? Are you feeling well today or you just do not bother to think what you write all for the sake of your traditions of men?

          • Pastor Dwayne

            You know des, the way you speak of free will this and free will that, I have to agree with Myrtle, who well spoke in questioning if you were a Christian or not. You speak of free will being a tradition of men , No, it is scriptural, your false doctrine of predestination took away your free will choice that made you become a Christian into a person who doesn't have free will
            Your Replacement ,expansion theory is going to bring that rock of Jer. 23 : 29 on your head

            I'm through casting pearls to the swine DONE

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "free will this and free will that, I have to agree with Myrtle, who well spoke in questioning if you were a Christian or not."

            A CLASSIC… let's not question the arguments let's question their presenter and from all things his faith. You really have no fear of God do you? How is any of your ad hominem rant addressing two mentioned examples of Jonah and Paul? It does not, you can only loosely assert something but when pressed on in specific you have to run and jump somewhere else to do another abuse of Scripture for you now you cannot walk through the text exegetically.

            "your false doctrine of predestination took away your free will"

            You kick against God and his word "pastor" and He holds you accountable for calling the truth a lie and a lie the truth…

            " He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons 15 through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure 16 of his will…"
            Ephesians 1:5

            As your lying eyes should see predestination is clearly taught in the Word of God above and many other places. It is actually there and mentioned by the very word: προοριζο – pro-or-id'-zo. However it is not taught in false man centered and man produced Gospel you entangle your people with to your greater and stricter judgment mentioned in James 3:1

          • Dionesius3

            You of ALL people have NO right to question anyone's motive. You have one motivation and one alone, that is to silence all voices except your own. If Calvin did not say it you will not hear it. Period end of discussion. Please go stick your head back in a Calvinist commentary. And look for some Scripture to quote that refutes the simple truth that WHOSOEVER may come unto Christ. It says it over sixty times in the Gospels alone.
            The new Testament says it over 100 times.
            Just like this verse from Matthew;
            For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
            Now SPEW your Calvinistic GARBAGE for all to see.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I have news for you there is no WHOSOEVER in the Greek text, especially not in John 3:16. There is only "everyone believing" or "everyone who believes" – "πας ο πιστευων" … Thus faith and believing is all important qualifier but you as a "Master of Divinity" should now that…
            Also it is rather interesting to see you fuming your hatred against Reformed Faith as a "non arminian" :) :)

          • Dionesius3

            And how is "everyone believing" ANY different from "whosoever"? OH wait Calvin makes a BIG deal out of this silly mole-hill. I AM so sorry I forgot about your disability to read Scripture without your Calvin, Martin LLoyd-Jones, Charles Haddon Spergeon glasses on. My bad, You just continue in your world, We are doing just fine here without your nonsense.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            What a stupid question. So for your Roman wake theology of Arminianism there is no difference beyween:

            "EVERYONE" period not string attached.

            and

            "EVERYONE BELIEVING" where active faith QUALIFIES that group?

            Wow, I though I have seen everything but you are a lower low of irrationality and confusion.
            Forget the men of God you mock in your utter stupidity and ignorance. You cannot DEAL WITH THE TEXT. You cannot exegete it in where it sis found.

          • Dionesius3

            Calvinism presents much more than God's truth. It presents this "truth" also
             
            "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage"
            - Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor
             And how about this one;
            "There is King James's English Bible, with its magnificent dedication. I
            bring the English acknowledged translation. And just one word more to
            push gently aside–for I am a kind man to those poor, deluded anti-slavery
            people–their last argument. It is _that_ this English Bible, in those
            parts which treat of slavery, don't give the ideas which are found in the
            original Hebrew and Greek. Alas for the common people!–alas for this good
            old translation! Are its days numbered? No, sir; no, sir. The Unitarian,
            the Universalist, the Arminian, the Baptist, when pressed by this
            translation, have tried to find shelter for their false isms by making or
            asking for a new rendering. And now the anti-slavery men are driving hard
            at the same thing. (Laughter.) Sir, shall we permit our people everywhere
            to have their confidence in this noble translation undermined and
            destroyed by the isms and whims of every or any man in our pulpits?"
            (Fred A. Ross D.D.)One of the leading Calvinist of his day. http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/7slav10.txt
            Chew on that Despeville.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            In contrast to you I am not interested in what certain people said as much as I am interested in what God The Holy Spirit said through Apostles. Trying to echange the topic of discussion which was "free will" in light of Scripture to your straw man about slavery is again cheap shot deceiving manipulation and evasion. Why do you run from the Word of God and try to cover up your escape by politics? Is it because your Arminianism is so Biblical? :) Why do you avoid this again:

            "14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

            19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "

            ~ Romans 9:14-24

          • Dionesius3

            Seems to me you are avoiding the simple question of why you so love the doctrine that was the MAIN support of slavery in the United States.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Again, this is a vain, deceiving evasion and frankly a lie too. Politics does not exegete the Scriptures. I am no longer interested in this shallow personal bickering games you like to play or what "seems to you" I am interested in factual biblical discussion akin to the one Paul attempted to make. Sadly you cannot provide that. Therefore this is were this ends as far as you and me. Thank you nevertheless and may God bless you and guide you to His whole counsel of truth mentioned in Acts 20:27

          • Dionesius3

            Your actually quitting?
            Hallelujah!
            Now I can go and talk with someone sane.
            God bless you and may you one day learn the Truth.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I am quitting you and your personal bickering.

        • lurl

          Worry not:
          Next the most holy pester dwayne will give us the true meaning of Moby Dick…that is an opening for some most interesting comments.

      • Jack

        "Then the Lord put on a little more pressure, this time Jonah's free will said yes to the Lord , and he went to
        Ninevah . "
        Choosing something based on the application of pressure is NOT exercising free will !!!

        I hope you're just kidding or something.

        • Pastor Dwayne

          I'm sure the Lord has pressed on you and you changed your mind

          • Jack

            Yes, and it's not free will. Not many are willing to admit they are not the Master, they play with this "free will" idea and twist it so they appear higher in their standing.

          • Pastor Dwayne

            Jack I don't think God uses His children for Robots, cause that is what your belief makes you..
            And DONE

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Please… this "robots" urban legend is a most vile, crude and frankly dumb misrepresentation people like you use to kick a helpless straw man instead of dealing with profound truth of God… How sad that you deceive and dumb down people that should be growing in the Word and its depth.

          • Dionesius3

            You of ALL people have NO right to question anyone's motive. You have one motivation and one alone, that is to silence all voices except your own. If Calvin did not say it you will not hear it. Period end of discussion. Please go stick your head back in a Calvinist commentary. And look for some Scripture to quote that refutes the simple truth that WHOSOEVER may come unto Christ. It says it over sixty times in the Gospels alone.
            The new Testament says it over 100 times.
            Just like this verse from Matthew;
            For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
            Now SPEW your Calvinistic GARBAGE for all to see.

          • lurl

            Well Diony
            You have a nasty little temper don't you. So that which you interpret as being the real thing in the whole truth and nothing but the truth…EH?
            Who are you to call those who honor Calvin GARBAGE? You may be astounded about that which some think of your abhorrent interpretations.

          • Dionesius3

            I call it garbage because that is exactly what it is. Despeville and all others may believe whatever they wish. But they need to understand that they can't go around bullying eaveryone who disagrees with them.Their beliefs are the very backbone and standard by which preachers during the Civil War stirred up the Southern Political leaders to revolt. They gave  them the political notion that Black skin was a sign of God's disfavor with the Black race. They preached thousands of published sermons screaming the mantra "Black skin is evidence of the Black man's sinful and lost state". It is a  Calvinist mantra " It would seem, that, inasmuch as the Bible was intended for all times and all ages, and not for one period and a single country, the fact that it gives directions as plain and full and forcible for the regulation of domestic service as it does for defining and limiting the marital, parental and filial relations in families, furnishes an inferential proof of the proposition that, everywhere, such service ought to be as universal as such higher and tenderer relations: that no household is perfect under the gospel which does not contain all the grades of authority and obedience, from that of husband and wife, down through that of father and son, to that of master and servant." (From the following website ;http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/wilson/wilson.html0
            This is an example from one of thousands of Calvinist sermons preached in the south

          • Dionesius3

            Here is another;
            Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

          • Xloni

            You certainly can say that again. No one so stubborn than a Calvinist or Romanist.

          • Jack

            Your pride is your stumbling block Dwayne.
            You pay lip service to the idea that their is a creator with power greater than yours but you can't really bring yourself to deal with it where the rubber hits the road.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Indeed Jack, Men hates the idea that he has no control and no say over God. This is precisely why men conjured up a false, powerless "gospel" where men have the absolute freedom of choice but God does not ending up with bastardized "god" and not God of the Bible who can save perfectly each and every time He chooses so.

          • Dionesius3

            Here is the problem with your teachings;
            “God is not responsible for anyone who goes to hell.” Every man is responsible for his own sin and the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Men go to hell because that is God’s decretive will. Here is the point of contention with that argument. If ALL men deserve to die and go to hell and God can save them all but He does not, then He is responsible for those who do not make it to heaven. There is no way to dance around that fact. Calvinists ought to man up and just admit that fact. The answer that I have heard on a number of occasions is, “The question is for me is, not why God saved some but why God saved any.” Well how do you do; that is like asking someone, “would you like to have an orange or an apple” and he answers “I think I would like to go to the movies.”

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You Non Arminian Arminian. What you rant about is Romanism for you swim in its wake and counter-reformation propaganda. Let us look at the Word of God which you hate and question:

            "19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

            ~ Romans 9:19-24

            See vessels PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION above?
            See vessels PREPARED FOR GLORY AND MERCY above?

            No matter how you lie, twist and turn you cannot avoid Gods's truth which Calvinism presents and teaches for it is simple the Gospel nicknamed that way to distinguish it from Romanism largely present in your beliefs.

          • lurl

            Nice analysis!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Jack, can you believe that this guy is a pastor and he keeps on twisting and abusing the Word despite numerous presentations of the Word that rebuke and debunk his pelagian arminianism?

          • Jack

            Unfortunately I can. Being a "Pastor" today is actually quite meaningless.
            We have many that openly violate the Word and challenge God with open defiance.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I have to conquer Jack. Dwayne is an example… He thinks that he can reinvent the wheel all on his own with private tutoring by "Holy Spirit"… Problem is his results are contradicting those of Christian Church and over millenniums under the guidance of The Holy Spirit.

          • Jack

            His (or her) argument is not with us, it's with their Creator.
            Neither you nor I make the rules around here.

            They can "conquer" everyone on earth, it's meaningless.

            I can never understand how the universalists delude themselves.

            What would be the point of observing any type of restriction on yourself, making your life much more difficult, if all are saved anyways?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Great point Jack and completely and utterly lost on the followers of "potential atonement" like Dwayne, Dinonsense and most of people here.

          • Dionesius3

            Your problem is that you think there is no salvation apart from Calvin.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

            ~ Romans 9:19-24

            See vessels PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION above?
            See vessels PREPARED FOR GLORY AND MERCY above?

            No matter how you lie, twist and turn you cannot avoid Gods's truth which Calvinism presents and teaches for it is simple the Gospel nicknamed that way to distinguish it from Romanism largely present in your beliefs.

          • lurl

            But….did you read his expose` about himself and how he became one of the treasured clergy?
            Wonder how much he pays a week for his storefront campus?

          • Vladimir

            Free will or agency is a very interesting subject. I've always thought that God will not take away our freedom to choose between right and wrong. He certainly created an earth that gives us the opportunity and even forces us to make choices all the time and not just between right and wrong either. Evidently making choices (and hopefully making good ones) is an important ingredient in our growth. Only a small fraction of the time do we even know most of the consequences that will result from our choices. We don't seem to have control over what the consequences will be either, just control over our decisions. Anyone care to comment?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I do. I think if you will read the thread in detail you will see plenty of Biblical evidence that God and not man decides about salvation. What if I could show you from the Word of God and that is Bible only that God can and does override the will of men even the corrupt will that wants to sin?

          • Vladimir

            I'm all eyes.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Genesis 20:6

            NASB© 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also KEPT YOU FROM sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

            ESV© 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who KEPT YOU FROM sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

            NET© 20:6 Then in the dream God replied to him, “Yes, I know that you have done this with a clear conscience. That is why I have KEPT YOU FROM sinning against me and why I did not allow you to touch her.

            Did you hear that sound? That was a notion of absolute "free will" of men imploding…

          • Vladimir

            I have to admit, that gave me pause. But, my understanding of free will is God will not abrogate our right to make decisions when we are presented with a choice (and we will enjoy or suffer the consequences of our decisions) That means we will at times be presented with choices and given the right to make a decision. It doesn't mean that we won't be influenced by God (or Satan) to make a good (or bad) choice. So the answer comes down to how God "kept" Abimelech from raping Sarah.

            God knew that Abimelech wanted to marry her and he would not rape her before marriage. God didn't prevent Abimelech from making a decision, He kept Abimelech from raping Sarah because Abimelech was led to believe Sarah was marriageable. Imploding Abimelech's "free will" would involve taking away the opportunity to make a choice and/or his ability to make a choice. A sudden case of erectile dysfuntion comes to mind. In that case Abimelech wouldn't have had the ability to rape Sarah. However, Abimelech apparently always was able and free to override his self control, but didn't, of his own free will.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Thanks. Seems to me that despite many words and interesting ideas like "erectile dysfunction" you still cannot escape what the text says i.e. that GOD kept a human being from certain course of action and He did not allow for some type of human action to happen. That is what it says and also in context therefore your conclusion of "Abimelech apparently always was able and free to override his self control" is completely besides the point the text is making. It was God who prevented and stopped and not Abimelech.

          • Vladimir

            I was too long winded. How about this. Your position is that the Lord said "I kept you from sinning" and He therefore robbed Abimelech of his agency. To deny someone their free will, is to PREVENT THEM BY FORCE from exercizing their free will. Did the Lord prevent Abimelech from exercizing his free will by force?

            For example, if I don't want my daughter to go to a party, I can tie her up (prevent her from making the decision to go) or threaten her with grounding for a month (not preventing her from making the decision to go). Later she will say, "you KEPT me from going", whether she was tied up or just threatened.

            I do not see anywhere that Abimelech was prevented by force from making a choice. Therefore, God didn't deny Abimelech his free will. Am I overlooking something?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            So God as you understand Him is able to achieve His ends only by means of "force"?
            That certainly is not God of the Bible… The text says what it says and your anthropomorphic examples are beside the point:

            NASB© 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also KEPT YOU FROM sinning against Me; therefore I DID NOT LET you touch her.

            Can you discuss the text and not your family and your parties please?

          • Vladimir

            Okay no illustrative stories.

            Did God keep Abimelech from sinning against Him by force or by strategem?

            One can deny another his free will by force, but strategem does not deny the other from exercizing his free will. I see no force employed by God, nor do I believe He would ever deny us our free will.

            God used strategem, not force to keep Sarah safe (and KEPT Abimelech from sinning against Him). If you can show me where God uses force to deny man his free will, I will be much appreciative.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Did God keep Abimelech from sinning against Him by force or by strategem? "

            Does He have to? Does He have other means to achieve His end? I propose hat He does and discussed Scripture among so much other confirms just that…

            You have to understand that all men have a will. Some though have it redeemed and some fallen only. The difference is like day and night.
            Read John 8 about that…

          • Vladimir

            I understand that all men have a will. But what I've been talking about is God's decision to never deny His children the right to make their own decisions. This is sometimes called "free will" or agency. Maybe we are talking about different things.

            BTW, I've always love John 8. Jesus was no slouch against a hostile crowd.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yet The Lord of Glory clearly makes the point that there are no "free agents" that you profess:

            "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
            ~ John 8:34

            There are only slaves of satan as those Jews who maintained despite Lord's word that they are truly free or "free agents":

            "They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”"
            ~ John 8:33

            Who are you going to believe?
            Is the text below allow for and speaks about asserted by you "free agency of men"

            NASB Genesis 20:6 "Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also KEPT YOU FROM sinning against Me; therefore I DID NOT LET you touch her. "

            Really? I submit to you that the only true "free agent" is God and God alone.

          • Vladimir

            God is NOT the only free agent. He has granted us free will (agency) to choose good or evil as evidenced by the fact that all of us have chosen evil from time to time in our lives. God will not force us to choose evil!!!

            Now the other side of the coin. Does God force us to choose good? You say he forced Abimelech to not sin. If He DID use force WHAT FORCE did He use? The only elements reported are the sudden barreness of Abimelech's household and the fact that God new the integrity of Abimelech's heart. Both of which could have occupied his mind and kept him from harming Sarah. The fact that God said "I also KEPT YOU FROM sinning against Me and I DID NOT LET you touch her" does not preclude Him from using those two things to accomplish that. And in the absence of a declaration of force, we cannot prove it was force.

            We, therefore, cannot from this scripture conclude God denies His children from using free will to make their own choices either for good or evil.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Think it through. I know you have different "god" and "gods" in Mormonism but try to put that on a side for a time. You want to run from the jest of the argument by focusing on your arbitrary picked means i.e. "force" which is not even coming from the passage and intentionally ignoring the end i.e. that God DID stop and DID not allow certain activity by human being. Those are the facts that you want to blur. As far as your assertion of "free agency" it is also erroneous because think that in the end in the ultimate sense you can have only free God or free man. There is no in between.

          • Vladimir

            I have to agree that Mormons have a different God than the one you describe.

            Force is the only way I know how to describe what will deny you your freedom/right to make choices. Everything else, such as coersion, trickery, pleading, pressure, further information etc only effect the decision you make, they don't destroy your ability to make the choice.

            God is omnipotent and I think that encompasses "free". He has told us that the truth will make us free and Christ's atonement can free us from the slavery of sin.

            Looks like God is free and man can be made free through God's grace. So we have both. It isn't an either/or situation.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Force is the only way I know how to describe what will deny you your freedom/right to make choices"

            Do observe that we are not here what you "know"… We are here to observe and learn what God gave us to know and that is contained in the Bible and discussed passage. You are continuing to superimpose your assertions on the text without allowing the text to freely speak to you:

            NASB Genesis 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also KEPT YOU FROM sinning against Me; therefore I DID NOT LET you touch her.

            It is clearly that there is no "force" mentioned here but the case can be made that God's loving kindness – hesed – יוּשַׁב is at work that results in constraint of man's fallen will to the blessing of that human being. Thus what is good here you want to see as bad. What is a blessing you want to portray as something negative. Is this not interesting and telling?

          • Vladimir

            I see only good here. It is a blessing that God gives us our right to make choices and to experience the results. It would be bad to be a puppet on a string, never allowed to have choices or experiencing the consequences of our decisions.

            It is also wonderful that He sends guidance so we can choose the righteous path in our decision making.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "puppet" is a urban myth and a caricature of what we have at hand here. Please deal with that and not how you want to see it. If man is fallen and he is and God is holy and He is then any act of Holiness restraining wickedness is to the benefit of wicked and Glory to God.

          • Vladimir

            I was using puppet on a string to illustrate the condition where one would not be able to make decisions. Now you have intrigued me. What is the puppet urban myth you mentioned?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            The puppet is a caricature and erroneous digression. Men do make real decisions but according to their fallen nature. That is why they are slave to sins. The assertion of freedom in fallen men is completely wrong and unrealistic. Men "paradoxically" do become free:

            " For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave."
            ~ 1 Corinthians 7:22

          • Vladimir

            Well, I guess I just can't agree with your interpretations of the Bible. I'll just continue my merry way making my own decisions when faced with a choice and enjoying the results of good decisions and suffering from bad decisions. And cointinually thanking God for granting me agency.

            I suspect you'll be making decisions every day, too but not realizing that's what you're doing.

          • Dionesius3

            Whosoever will may come unto the Lord.
            There are over sixty instances in the Gospels alone.
            Here are just a few;
            Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
            But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
            And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Many times there is no "WHO SO EVER" in the Greek text. Furthermore each and every time this description is QUALIFIED by context and either explicitly concerning saved or implicitly pointing to them…

          • Dionesius3

            Oops, I forgot to put on my Calvinist glasses again…Do they make these darn things in contact lenses so I can't forget them next time?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            No, do not check off your brain and soul to papists as you do and read the Word for what it says and not what your counter reformation traditions tell you it says…

            "19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

            ~ Romans 9:19-24

            See vessels PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION above?
            See vessels PREPARED FOR GLORY AND MERCY above?

            No matter how you lie, twist and turn you cannot avoid Gods's truth which Calvinism presents and teaches for it is simple the Gospel nicknamed that way to distinguish it from Romanism largely present in your beliefs.

          • Dionesius3

            Calvinism presents much more than God's truth. It presents this "truth" also
             
            "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage"
            - Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor
             And how about this one;
            "There is King James's English Bible, with its magnificent dedication. I
            bring the English acknowledged translation. And just one word more to
            push gently aside–for I am a kind man to those poor, deluded anti-slavery
            people–their last argument. It is _that_ this English Bible, in those
            parts which treat of slavery, don't give the ideas which are found in the
            original Hebrew and Greek. Alas for the common people!–alas for this good
            old translation! Are its days numbered? No, sir; no, sir. The Unitarian,
            the Universalist, the Arminian, the Baptist, when pressed by this
            translation, have tried to find shelter for their false isms by making or
            asking for a new rendering. And now the anti-slavery men are driving hard
            at the same thing. (Laughter.) Sir, shall we permit our people everywhere
            to have their confidence in this noble translation undermined and
            destroyed by the isms and whims of every or any man in our pulpits?"
            (Fred A. Ross D.D.)One of the leading Calvinist of his day. http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/7slav10.txt

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            non sequitur

          • Dionesius3

            Non-entity, when it comes to answering for the failures of your own beloved doctrine.

  • KD

    Calvinism and it's TULIP is a doctrine of devil and is NOT biblical.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      TULIP is a shorthand of a brief response to counter reformation known as remonstrance inspired and propagated by Roman Catholic Church. Please DO learn your church history and what you are trying to attack. We would listen to you more then.

    • Jack

      Pray tell explain this devil doctrine ;-)
      I am sure Despeville will be happy to thoroughly shred your argument.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        :)

        • Jack

          Sorry to put you on the spot but you're awesome on doctrine!

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :) I don't know about that Jack. Perhaps it is rather the vast lukewarmness of an average leavenjellycal…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            It must be wonderful to have someone of the same delusion express their appreciation.

          • jack

            Why would you care? If I am "deluded" about my salvation what difference could it possibly make to Jeff Dixon?

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            You can believe what you like, it is little concern to me. I post for people reading this that are not yet lost to the god delusion.

          • jack

            Because lots and lots of atheists frequent this board?
            Jeff, sorry, you're full of it.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            I did not say Atheists, I said people not lost to the god delusion. There are many in the world who are on the fence on the topic.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            So those people referred by you as "people not lost to the god delusion" cannot do what you granted to Jack as in: "You can believe what you like"???

            What is a "logic" here? Is Jack privileged in your eyes and other people are not?

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            I am not forcing anyone to accept anything I have stated. Therefore, of course the "other people" are free to believe whatever they like as well. When I say I post for people not yet lost to the dod delusion, I am merely stating that I am offering them information they may not yet have considered. Your inability to understand the meaning of words is one of your major stumbling blocks, Humpty.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "dod delusion"

            Hmm, Are you writing a cryptic sequel to Dawkin's book?

            'I am not forcing anyone to accept anything I have stated. Therefore, of course the "other people" are free to believe whatever they like as well"

            I am glad that you are so generous and after all do grant that right to other people as well.Of curse you have no idea that Christians do not see people "as sitting on the fence" as you do nor do we expect that we can talked into saving faith as you think you can mesmerize by your slogans into jumping to your lawn. I have a "good news" for you Dixon which is really not that good at all. All people apart of faith are sitting on your lawn and not on any fence.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            You have no information worth anything, Humpty.

          • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

            I certainly do not have anything about "dods"… Or "dod delusion". Perhaps you can enlighten us in our ignorance and with your mastery of English. What is a "dod" dear spell checker wanba be?

          • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

            wanna be :)

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Consistency is never high on the list of atheists…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            It is actually one of the points you can always count on, Humpty.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :) The only consistency you have is your rabid inconsistency Jeff Dixon.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            You can always count on me being to correct your pathetic grasp of English grammar and spelling, your inability to grasp how science operates and a ludicrous concept of what constitutes logic.

          • jack

            The existence or non-existence of a supreme being does not fall within the realm of science. If YOU knew anything about science you would know that.

            The question can not be tested for, the variables can not be controlled and the question can not be falsified, therefor science is of no use in answering the question.

            An atheist like you is just another member of another religion because to be an atheist, one must believe, based on faith (since science can not answer the question), that no supreme being exists.

            That, my boy, is more logical than anything you have written here.

          • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

            Jack,

            Would you be interested in having contact outside of this forum?

            http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            I did not say his inability to grasp science had anything to do with his belief in a god. It is a nice try to try and pin something so absurd on me, but your futile effort was wasted.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Dixon as it was presented to you and which you have observed and agreed on yourself your worldview of matter, chaos and energy only does not allow nor account nor explain science and its immaterial, absolute, abstract and continuous laws so please stop being a hypocrite.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            I have never agreed with you on this topic. I see you are back with your lies again.

          • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

            Oh yes you did a little liar. That is why you have asserted a future answer to this massive dilemma of your myopic schizophrenia called atheism. Google yourself if your lying filters will not let you recall it. Asserting future possibility is not any meaningful or reasonable answer. It is begging the question only. Perhaps you have plagiarized something new to this end but I do not think so for no atheists, even the intelligent ones have any answer to this dichotomy eating your worldview from inside like an aggressive cancer. So in the end you can only tell us about your "dod delusion" with which you are trying to hoax yourself into your unintelligent, unattainable, under-informed and inconstant stupor of paganism.

          • Jack

            Maybe so, but still good.
            Most of them have probably never read through even the shortest explanation of what TULIP means.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Nor do they understand that T U L I P is only a shorthand, a short concise response to counter-reformation of remonstrance in early XVII century inspired, supported and influenced by Roman Catholic "church"…

            Canons of Dort for anyone who cares to understand why TULIP is a response and not a definitional proclamation only.

            LINK: http://bit.ly/Nqzj9

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Silence is sometimes the best answer especially when you cannot say anything of value and substance… http://youtu.be/pMfV0sVQ_VU

    • msjallen

      At the time of the Reformation another great time in history: Martin Luther, John Calvin & Zwingli who made salvation clear. But TULIP was brought in and legalism came in and the Christian way of life was not clear. All sins were judged on the cross: unlimited atonement – he died for all – II Cor 5:14, 15, 19, I Tim 4:10, Heb 2:9, II Pet 2:9, I Pet 2:2 Calvinism is limited atonement and it is anti-grace. TULIP is from Calvinism; he was very smart but wrong about TULIP which means total depravity, unlimited election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints. He was right about total depravity but God gave each person the free will to believe or not. God does not predestinate anyone to hell; one goes to hell because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as their savior.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Perhaps you should put away your "great and many" notes from some guru running a tiny church and start reading the Bible for all its worth and in context maybe then your would not post such a simplistic canards and misrepresentations of what you do not know, do not understand and never studied in depth. Tulip is a short hand, a brief response to counter reformation movement known as remonstrance inspired and supported by Roman Church which presented its five points to which TULIP was a response. This is not a full exposition of Reformed Faith by any stretch of imagination. Sadly you are attacking it without understanding what it is and thus follow in footsteps of Rome and its opposition to the Gospel. All your quotes are BUTCHERY and MUTILATION of the Scripture where you rip verses OUT OF CONTEXT because they have a word that you seek for your in your Roman and Gnostic heritage of religiosity.

        • msjallen

          Proverbs 29:22 An angry man stirs up strife, And a hot-tempered man abounds in transgression.
          Proverbs 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
          Ephesians 4:30-31 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
          Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            The Bible is not a subject to your scissor jobs and collage making that you want to produce to appease your ego or views or opinions. It was not written for that so please stop abusing the Word for the sake of your personal preferences…

          • msjallen

            Proverbs 29:22 An angry man stirs up strife, And a hot-tempered man abounds in transgression.
            Proverbs 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
            Ephesians 4:30-31 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
            Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

          • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

            More Russian roulette with the Bible according to emotional states of your ego. Sad.

  • Christopher

    Atonement is limited, propitiation is not. Atonement is mentioned one time in the NT and means 'to be reconciled'. Is the unbelieving sinner reconciled to God? …No! Propitiation is offered to all. God endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. I believe in reading the Bible NOT following man. The natural man receiveth not the things of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned. I believe Jesus is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. That the Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin, of righteousness, and judgement. Why is Hebrews full of warnings if grace is irresistible? This is SOOO what Paul warned of, "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I of Cephas, I of Christ, I am of Calvin, or I am of Arminius. READ YOUR BIBLE instead of your commentaries!!!

    • Dionesius3

      Well said my friend it's refreshing to see someone else who get's it and reads the Bible for themselves and does not just espouse the traditions of man.
      May God bless you in your studies.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      "……No! Propitiation is offered to all. "

      That is what you have bought into. God has a different idea and agenda:

      Gospel of John 17:19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."
      Now read that entire chapter to qualify who is that "THEIR" and also "THEY" and "THEM" see if your universalism can be squeezed into that group…

      • Dionesius3

        Why don't you go burry your head in a Calvinist commentary and leave the adults to discuss Scripture?

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Hmmm, I am the one who actually presents a Biblical text above and makes the argument from it. You are the one who asserts something completely different and implies your experience despite your young and tender age…

          • Dionesius3

            You are pathetic. And Funny HAAAAAAAA HAAAAA HAAAA.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            And you are very, pious, humble, nice, factual, informative and on topic disputant plus all the other things that terrible, mean, nasty, sledgehammer swinging Calvinists are not. In short true God's gift to this planet and so contributory to the topic of so called "absolute free will of men". Thanks so much for your invaluable augmentation of this topic…

          • Dionesius3

            You are very welcome, and I do so enjoy pulling your strings and making you dance. All Calvinist are so loving and kind in all their discussions. They never make personal remarks or argue about someone else's level of education. They are always upfront about their agendas, and they do always state things so simply that even a child could follow their reasoning.
            I really hope we can communicate again on this wonderful topic.
            May God Bless your humble ministry here on Zionica

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Yawn.

          • Dionesius3

            Wake up Despeville, another Calvin hater has just posted. ROFL

          • Evermyrtle

            I don't think the he is. That spot is saved for you.

  • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

    No, you are foremost a clown.

    • Dionesius3

      Thanks, that means we are brothers, because your the biggest clown I have seen in some time.

  • Dionesius3

    Three things EVERYONE knows about Calvinist;
    1. They defend their beliefs tooth and Nail.
    2. They never fail to use a sledgehammer when a feather duster would do just as well.
    3 Despeville thinks Calvin and Scripture are the same thing.

    • msjallen

      Dionesius3, I appreciate those who know the Biblical truth on this site.

      • Dionesius3

        I love discussing the Scripture with people who will allow others to have an opinion. I may not agree with your opinion but I will allow you to have one. Unlike some on this site.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          You love to mumble and Scriptures are a rug for your pride…

        • msjallen

          You hit it right on the nail. Your perception is accurate. I believe in giving an opinion whether right or wrong and you give your opinion instead others degrading you personally. It is childish and egotistic.

        • Evermyrtle

          Very good Dion……………….and msjallen

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Very good what? because they disagree with me? You are so biased that you would say very good to devil himself if that would placate your bias. Sad confused man you are that did not learn much in your years.

          • Dionesius3

            Good job Desperateville,
            You really have a way with words.
            And you certainly know how to win friends and influence people.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            This is not popularity contest. It never was and from the beginning too. Read John 6 for example…

            Slander, name calling and intentional misrepresentation is unfortunately your preferred modus operandi and so typical for "feather like Non Arminian" Arminians. If you would take the subject to proper and hard study with the same passion you have for slander and belittlement of other people including those who in the past suffered hard persecutions you and other people and this discussion would be so much better off. Sadly that is not the case for it is always easier and more convenient to kick a helpless straw man one constructed for himself than to deal with best what the other side has to offer. So is the case with you and your vicious, nefarious and uninformed attacks on Reformed Faith and Reformed Theology.

            May God forgive you and guide you to truth.

          • Dionesius3

            Here is another of your words;
            "If you would take the subject to proper and hard study with the same passion you have for slander and belittlement of other people including those who in the past suffered hard persecutions you and other people and this discussion would be so much better off." By DeS
            Desperate, I have take the time to Properly Study the subject under Professors who are immanent Reformed Theology Scholars, Writers, and Pastor's. I've seen and heard all there is to the "Reformed" position. I agree with much, but I don't agree with it all. And I never will for numerous reasons, which you have no need to know, and no right to know, you are free to believe whatever you wish and I wish you well in ALL that you do, but do NOT try to cram you belief down my throat. Nor should you try to belittle and slander me as you have done repeatedly.
            Have you forgotten questioning my level of education?
            Have you forgotten calling me a homosexual?
            Have you forgotten calling me a Catholic, KJVCULTIST, MORMON, ETC…?
            I started this conversation with a simple statement. That statement is ABSOLUTELY true.
            1 All Calvinist  defend their beliefs tooth and Nail.
            2. They never fail to use a sledgehammer when a feather duster would do just as well.
            And you my friend are a case in point and a perfect example of exactly what I said.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I have not called you a "homosexual" I said that you argue from assertion of "hate" just as they do.
            In fact you in your lying tongue asserted that to my brother Jack and now nefariously project your behavior on me… What a shame you are. Yes I did and still do question your education given what and how you write your bogus bogeyman attacks on me and other people.

            You are misrepresenting all the time yet refuse to honestly engage Biblical arguments presented from Romans 9, from John 6, from Revelation 5 etc. Do you have any shred of objectivity left?

          • Dionesius3

            I already told you, ask a coherent question and I will gladly discuss it with you.
            But shout and name call like you have done for three days now and I will match or best you every time.
            You are really one to ask for objectivity. What objectivity have you shown to most of the people you post to on this site?
            How fair have you been?
            And lastly, when are you going to answer the question of what your education level is?
            Must not have any since you won't answer the question.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            I am no longer interested in this shallow personal bickering games you like to play. I am interested in factual biblical discussion akin to the one Paul attempted to make. Sadly you cannot provide that. Therefore this is were this ends as far as you and me. To answer your last question. my education comes from two different universities on two different continents and that is all you need and will know. Thank you nevertheless and may God bless you and guide you to His whole counsel of truth mentioned in Acts 20:27

          • Dionesius3

            Yes, I bet you have some education. You are no longer interested because you and every other Calvinist love to overlook your own doctrinal history. You love to argue the Scripture, but bring in one real-world example of a doctrine being lived out in the world and the Calvinist is done.
            As I said, If you want to discuss Scripture I would be more than happy to discuss it, without personal attacks and name calling, but if you don't want to do that then yes let's call it quits.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            :)
            I am sorry that you are so biased and misinformed. Perhaps this would be of interest to you and after you read it we could take this discussion to the political, economical, judicial, cultural and educational context.

            "John Calvin's American Legacy" ~ On Amazon for $29.95: http://amzn.to/J5rcBh

            Until then.

          • Dionesius3

            Why would I want to read more trash designed to cover up Calvin's real legacy?
            Calvin's real legacy is there for anyone to read and understand. And it does not cost $29.95.
            His is a legacy of Blood, Slavery, Persecution of those who do not follow his dictatorial rule. And a complete hatred of a Representative form of Government. Had John Calvin's ideas prevailed in the history of the United States there would have been no United States. It was the "good" Calvinist torries who often caused the most damage and bloodshed during the Revolutionary War. And It was the "good" Calvinist Preachers who devised the arguments that Slavery was ESSENTIAL to God's will being carried out on the Earth.
            I am not misinformed on anyone of those issues and anyone can look it up on the internet and see for themselves.
            I am not biased either, in fact I readily admit that it was not all Calvinist who did these things, and in fact many heroes of the Revolution and the Civil War were Calvinist. And it was a Calvinist who helped frame the Bill of Rights.
            But that does nothing to remove the facts that are clear to anyone who wishes to study.
            Calvinism holds much "truth" but Calvinism is NOT the Gospel. The Scripture is the ONLY document which Contains the "Whole Counsel" of God.
            ANY systematic Doctrine, like Calvinism, can cover some or even most of that "Counsel" but none are "PERFECT" only the Scripture can claim perfection.
             
            Calvin was a "great" man, likely one of the smartest men to have ever lived, but he was not "perfect" and neither is his system of belief perfect.
            And neither is any other systematic belief system "perfect". We are all under the effects of the fall, and there has been only one exception to the rule, Jesus Christ, the son of God.

          • Dionesius3

            So believe whatever you wish, defend whatever you wish, but recognize that you, I, and everyone else living do not have all the answers. We can be rude and nasty about the very basic tenants of our faith. Like insisting that it is ONLY through Christ that salvation comes. We can even insist that salvation can be found in NO OTHER Name, but we can not insist that our own pet theories about how exactly God does every little thing In the process be followed or else.

            God's ways and thoughts are far above and beyond our meager abilities. But thankfully he did leave us with the Scriptures which give us some limited insight into that process. What we must remember is that it is a LIMITED insight and not the Whole picture.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Hahhahaaha notihng like a platitude of a Gnostic… I am sure Dinonsense feels much better now as you are probably too. Have you discovered anything new in your "great and many notes" from the guy who knows everything? Please share more of your Gnostic "knowledge"…

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        By the way. It is nice to see you both self thumbers together. Perhaps you can set up Zionica's Self Thumbing Club?

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      'Despeville thinks Calvin and Scripture are the same thing."

      Nope, I think you and a liar are the same person.

      • Dionesius3

        For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

        For the Word of God bothers Despeville to no end because unless you agree with his every word you are a liberal, commie, hippie, dope smoking, cheating, lying, stealing, no good, word twisting, idiot. We see clearly who is all of the above.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Another example of humble, pious, loving, factual response from Arminian Baptist from KJVonlyism cult…
          Do you see " SHALL DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER"??? Well this QUALIFIES your Arminian exaggeration of "whosoever" To put it right on the table for your one word "ὅστις" more properly translated as "everyone" does not stand alone but is qualified by the verse and its context too.

          • Dionesius3

            Oh! I see only Despeville can possibly be the one who is right with God. How could I have possible missed that in the Greek, It's right there just as plain as can be.
            The verse and the context allows no Calvinistic Qualifications Like this is ONLY for those whom God has preprogrammed. You are not that special Despeville, God offered salvation to all. I did not say he will save all. I didn't even say he would save most, I simply stated that ANYONE has a chance. Whereas you say there are only a select few whom God has even offered Salvation. And you prefer that all would not even get a chance, because you are so loving.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "God offered salvation to all."

            A lie of Non Arminian Arminian with "feather like" talk

            Versus the truth of God:

            " All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
            ~ John 6:67

          • Dionesius3

            Why does it so bother you that God offers salvation to all. It does not mean all will hear, it just means the offer is there. Anyone knows All will not be saved. Salvation is going to be effective only for those Who hear.
            There are after all a whole lot of spiritually deaf and blind people. But God's truth is there for them even if they don't or won't hear it or see it.
            Why is that offensive to you Calvinist?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "for those Who hear."

            That does not explain anything and begs the question why some hear and some do not… Sorry to see that such a cheap trick is sufficient to placate your convictions.

          • Dionesius3

            Some hear because they listened, some did not because of numerous reasons. What real difference does that make? Surely your are not going to question God's ways are you? Remember Des, God's ways are not your ways, and the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man. And by the way Calvin was just a man, not God as you believe.
            And what cheap trick are you referring to?
            The one where you called me a homosexual, or the one where you said I was too stupid to have an MDIV degree?

          • jack

            "Why does it so bother you that God offers salvation to all."
            Simple, because it's wrong.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Indeed it is.
            It is a man's idea and not the testimony of the Word.

            NASB John17:19: "For THEIR sakes I sanctify Myself, that THEY themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

            Pronouns in chapter 17 of John clearly support this truth.

      • Evermyrtle

        Desper…………What has made you so bitter. I know there must have been a very disappointing TERRIBLE event somewhere in your life to cause your bitter agnostic attitude, that NOBODY can possibly can be right, but you and this cause you to critize everything everybody else says or writes. You SEEM to think that is your trial in life !!!

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          What made you so sneaky and so universalistic and so untruthful? There is plenty of people I agree with and learn from and for example in this thread alone it is Jack and Jeremiah so we have established that you lie.
          Agnostic? That is another lie and smear Sir that you love to paint your opponents with. How disgraceful. Would you at least ONCE in your life attempt to honestly approach the subject at hand INSTEAD the person that discusses it? How can you be so deceiving and dishonest and call yourself a child of God? How I ask?

          • Dionesius3

            Questioning someone's salvation are we, hmmm, seems like there are several verses in the Bible that speak about that issue.
            Did not Calvin even speak on the same issue???, and did he himself not say that one should not question the salvation of a person who does not agree with his teachings, hmmm, makes me wonder…

  • jack

    To Despeville:
    If you would like to answer I would truly appreciate your views on the Geneva Bible, if you are acquainted with it.
    Thank you

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Jack,

      I have it. I read it. I like it and I appreciate it. I think it is a tremendous translation. Despite availability of many more manuscripts and advance in understanding textual transmission many modern translations do not come close to
      Geneva Bible. The notes alone are so much more profound than most commentaries available today. In short
      a great source of truth.

      • jack

        Thanks.

        The reason I ask is that it is difficult if one is not able to learn many languages and have access to many materials the average person will never have. I have always believed it is the best translation available to the average person and is the one that I choose to give as a gift.

        My education is not in religion or theology but in science, I work for a large crude oil marketing and management company.

        There is one thing that always strikes me as the sole indicator that the Arminians are incorrect: the fact that it is the easy path. It is easy to believe that YOU are in charge of your salvation. It speaks to our human pride and vanity.
        It has always rung true that the correct path would always be the most difficult.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Indeed and I gave GB as a gift too and what a gift it is Jack. Arminians are people who are infatuated with strong emotions but not on their knees before the truth as it is given. They will look for any excuse even the most silly and irrational one with one word in sentence that supposedly overrides the meaning of entire sentence or paragraph and not the other way around. If you come to think about it and biblicaly God can and does only one choice in terms of salvation and only one of them gives Him freedom to display all of His attributes. He can only:

          A. Save all.
          B. Save none.
          C. Save some.

          We know which one is true and which one is reveled all over the Bible and how salvation comes from the Lord.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Humpty, as usual, you neglect the other option is which is the only real option available, that your religion, as with all religions, is a sham.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Why don't you take a walk Schizoid and bump randomly into other "animals" in your idiosyncratic, inconsistent and unattainable worldview. There is nothing you can add or discuss here without being a total and complete hypocrite.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            It is true that I cannot communicate with you on your level of delusional, but it is fun to watch you continually jumping through mental hoops trying to explain your silly viewpoints.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Keep your impressions about fun to yourself then. We have plenty of people here who do not contribute anything meaningful to this discussion, including those who call themselves Christians.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Sorry, you are not in charge of me or this site, as much as you like to pretend you are.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            That is not what I said so you are as usual besides the point. There is nothing you can contribute to this subject so please spare are us your inane comments that make this thread so long as if 80% was not besides the point any way.

          • jack

            We are well aware of our options and have discarded yours, please drive through.

  • Dionesius3

    And you make silly comments like "this is a matter of not understanding the gospel" No it is not, the gospel is the same for all. You can be saved and be a good Christian with out following or even knowing anything about Calvinism.

  • The Riddler

    Ok, here's a good twister thought experiment:

    Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Ted Bundy, Manson and some little old lady that never did anything wrong in her life and believes all die at the same time and are to meet their fate.

    We are going to place an arbitrary condition on God in order to illustrate a point. We will say that God has agreed to the condition that only one of these persons will be saved.

    Whom does God pick?

    • far2right

      The one whose legal account shows perfect righteousness and no sin whatsoever.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Great answer Far2Right.

    • Dionesius3

      According to Desperville, it would be whichever one was a believer in Calvinism.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Slander, name calling and intentional misrepresentation is unfortunately your preferred modus operandi and so typical for "feather like Non Arminian" Arminians. If you would take the subject to proper and hard study with the same passion you have for slander and belittlement of other people including those who in the past suffered hard persecutions you and other people and this discussion would be so much better off. Sadly that is not the case for it is always easier and more convenient to kick a helpless straw man one constructed for himself thna to deal with best what the other side has to offer. So is the case with you and your vicious, nefarious and uninformed attacks on Reformed Faith and Reformed Theology.

        May God forgive you and guide you to truth.

        • HelenofTroy

          I wish you two would find common ground because as much energy as it takes to antagonize each other coupled with the energy it takes to read up on your discontent with each other — when I think I am going to get some insite into the topic of the day, I really depend on you that way — I mean it is such a waste and there are so many problems to solve. — you two should really join forces, set aside your differences and build some real comraderie… Christ would like that I know. Agree to "Come unto Christ" He said "Love one another, as I have loved you," somewhere. .

    • SHIRLEY FORD

      THE ONE THAT BECOMES BORN AGAIN,JESUS WORDS,HE CAME TO SAVE SINNERS OF WHICH WE ALL ARE,,

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        "For THEIR sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."
        ~ John 17:19

        Please read entire chapter 17 of the Gospel of John and pay super close attention to all of the pronounce there which will shed a light on this "THEIR" above which is a group for which Christ went to His Cross for.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Whom He picks is evident through the faith He gives.

    • jack

      I am surprised by these answers and they illustrate probably the biggest problem we have today.

      When we elevate ourselves to the level of God by claiming to know his mind fully we deny what we so often claim, that our Creator is omnipotent. We start from there and then begin over-laying our own wants and ideas of "justice" until we have a bastardized, awful, inconsistent load of hogwash.
      We start spouting universalist garbage like "God could not possibly send an unbeliever or a Jew to hell if they lived a "moral" life because it wouldn't be "fair."

      If we are at a level where we can fully know the mind of God, we would be gods ourselves.

      Since all of these beings are men, none of them can be without sin so they must be saved through the Father.

      Not one person has answered that the one saved is God's choice.

      • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

        Very true and very concrete. Thank you Jack.

      • HelenofTroy

        I did think it Jack

    • Vladimir

      So, Riddler, what's your textbook solution?

      • http://youtu.be/NRJHKzU_t1M Despeville

        Surely it will not and cannot be the Mormon one.

        • dwoodphd

          Do you think you are God, VespeDille?

          • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

            No, I am not "god maker" like you and the rest of your Mormon cult. How your planet is going to be?

      • The Riddler

        There is none, except that it is God's choice.
        The question is posed to illustrate a problem we have, not really to provide an answer to the particular question.

        Naturally all of us would root for the little old lady.
        However, the Lord is the Lord and it is impossible for us to fully know his mind, if we could we would be equal and not need any supreme being.

        If we start to twist, tug and pull at the corners of our beliefs to justify our choice, we no longer truly believe what we profess to believe.

        I have had many so-called Christians tell me that God MUST pick the little old lady. I would reply with the fact that, being a God that you claim is omnipotent, how could you as a mere human make the decision for him and remove his power to choose?
        They never have a good answer because us humans don't really want to admit that we are merely human and are only exposed to as much of the mind of God as He so chooses.

        We wish to apply our ideas about "fairness" and "justice" to the Creator and then rationalize and justify those applications.

        That's where our fall starts.

        • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

          Ditto and Amen.

        • HelenofTroy

          Yes God keeps his freedom of choice. There is another possibility: Here is how I look at it: God gives us freedom of choice as well, because He wants to do so.. That is just how GREAT He IS! And HE WANTS us all back with Him. He would have US chose HIM (vs the adversary) so He has given us guidelines in order to do so, i.e. the Ten Commandment and other comandments implied by the examples of the life of Christ (e.g., love one another as I have loved you) In other words, I believe that God our Eternal Father has sent us to Earth with the freedom to choose or deny him and he is leaving us to make the decision to get on the straight and narrow again exemplified by the life of Christ, if we choose to do so. I know that God is all powerfull and I know in comparison we know extremely little, but He wants us back willingly when we are done with the trials we have overcome on Earth.to — in the hereafter— further progress with Him in Heaven.

          • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

            That is just a confusion you place in front of yourself to excuse yourself from hard questions and truth.
            Ultimately, you can only have free God or free man and in your system "god" is not free but bound by the
            decisions of creatures.

  • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

    Calvinism is simply another absurd Christian view of the world. A more dismal view than some, but an absurd view nonetheless.

    • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

      Another taste of irrational, inane, insane and unattainable rant of hypocritical atheist who while mesmerizing himself with "science" chant cannot possibly account for and explain the most basics and intrinsic nature of science and its laws in his deficient and grotesque pseudo-view of the world and its realities.

      • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

        Humpty, it is obvious you have no idea what the purpose of science actually is with your idiotic comment.

        • Joe Anzilotti

          Your mastery of the English language Jeff is simply mesmerizing.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Hahhahaha, rmember this is a guy with 1500 words in his vocab and mortgage training…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Given how many words you make up new definitions for, you are in the negative numbers, Humpty.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Sure besserwisser who learned what "goads" are at his tender age of 48 or whatever old you are…

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Yep, I learned a new word at 50. I am glad to see you admit you believe you know the meaning of every word in the English language once again. Quite an achievement since there are over a million at this point. Of course it does help when you simply make up the definition you desire at that moment.

            So, how many bottles of canard did you imbibe last night?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            " I am glad to see you admit you believe you know the meaning of every word in the English language once again."

            @Dodxon

            Notice that I did not say that nor any of to that. I simply observed that you did not know a fairly simple and known word at the age of 48 or 50… which speaks volumes about your education and therefore paradigm (another one) you use in your perception of the world. As usual you have to construct completely bogus and false straw man for yourself and then proceed to attack it hoping that none will notice the real issue here. This so dishonest and so symptomatic for your debased and given over mind and frankly insulting to the most readers and posters on this forum. Shame on you.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            There are over a million in the language. Therefore, since you found it amusing that someone could learn a new word, you obviously think you already know them all. What one person considers normal does not constitute any set parameters of the issue. It is simply more evidence of your overblown, windbag style.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            "Therefore, since you found it amusing that someone could learn a new word, you obviously think you already know them all."

            This simply does not follow, non sequitur for any reasonable person. Yet you think it is valid. This is exactly the type of irrationality you entrance yourself in your useless attacks on Christ and His Gospel and most of us see it just as clearly as this fallacy of yours.

            I have news for you. There have been over a million words in English 30 years ago so even in this you are behind, imprecise if not nonfactual… You really should start reading more and posting here less.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Humpty, you are not a reasonable person. It is amusing that you try and pretend otherwise. As to whether there have been more than a million for over 30 years, it seems you are behind the times. But, never let reality be part of your worldview. It is much more amusing to hear you rant about fables.

            The number of words in the English language is : 1,013,913. This is the estimate by the Global Language Monitor for January 1, 2012.
            The English Language passed the Million Word threshold on June 10, 2009 at 10:22 a.m. (GMT). The Millionth Word was the controversial ‘Web 2.0′. Currently there is a new word created every 98 minutes or about 14.7 words per day.
            http://www.languagemonitor.com/no-of-words/

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            You are being completely silly asserting some monitor as the only authority on the expansion rate of English words. besides you only know about 1500 so it is utterly meaningless for you and your keyhole language usage.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            It is a monitor that was confirmed by an independent source. A concept that you are unfamiliar with.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Joe, you are the king of the Luddites. I am sure you find anything new to new to be amazing.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            Joe, you are the king of the Luddites. I am sure you find anything new to be amazing

  • mjazz

    I don't know why the Presbyterians side with the Palestinians, who want to destroy Israel.

    • Deep_Thinker

      Prove it… USA wants a war, that's the excuse.. War is good business..

      • mjazz

        It's in their Charters.

      • mjazz

        PS- Do you live under a rock?

        • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

          Do you know any actual people who live under rocks?

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            What a mindless, shallow miser comment… This forum could be so much better whiteout this type of useless rant.

          • http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon

            If only, if only, if only!!! Humpty, your wishes are as meaningless as your comments.

          • http://youtu.be/zjgBhpanOfQ Despeville

            Dixon you are such a mindless Anti Christian bigot unable to offer anything beyond your filthy, subjective and useless bigotry.

          • mjazz

            I saw a commercial once.

  • cosmosHacker

    Of course this article missed the point about the implications that Calvinism has. It's a false doctrine that contradicts the verses indicating that everyone can be saved. Calvin, like so many others, failed to realize just because he couldn't reconcile free will and divine foreknowledge (God being outside of the temporal dimension he made) doesn't mean you throw it out and substitute a an obviously untenable heresy.

    This was the problem that many ppl had with the verses in the Old Testament about the Messiah. Many couldn't figure out that some were talking about his death, burial, and resurrection and that the other verses about his coming kingdom would happen at a later time, thus reconciling passages that never had a contradiction in the first place. It's time we start reading the Bible on a level beyond that of a kindergartener.

    I think sites like this need to stop pandering to everything that falsely calls itself Christian and start sticking up for the truth in its whole and not the lowest common denominator. Thus one can avoid the slippery slope to crass unbelief and surreal heresies.

    • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

      All does not mean all all the time Mr. Cosmically and Comically Confused. It does not in the Word, it does not in books and even does not in newspapers. It is always qualified by the context and you shallow surface dwellers of popular arminianism fail to recognize that truth for the sake of your erroneous sense of "fairness" which is a human and bastardized corruption of the Gospel. I give you one example of one of the most popular hypothetical salvation theory verse that is always ripped out from its immediate or semi immediate context juts all the rest of your "fail proof" universalitic nonsense assertions:

      "But do not overlook this one fact, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance."

      (2 Peter 3:8-9 ESV)

      Get a clue… BELOVED stands for believers ONLY and that group is addressed as YOU, ANY and ALL. Same context rules apply to all other abused Scriptures like Matthew 23:37 or 1 Timothy 2:4
      More about it here: http://www.objectivegospel.org/the-big-three

      You criticize what you do not know and what is most consistent exposition of the true Gospel there is. Learn before you smear in your ignorance.

  • HelenofTroy

    DP: "The Lord… not wishing that ANY should perish," (your emphasis) proves my point… I don't see how it supports Calvin's …

    thanks DP… I am sure you will let me know of my fallacy… go ahead, I'm braced. The little old lady was the only one I saw on the list who could be called "beloved"… since it seems to me she is the only "believer" [please don't rant on about the greatness of God and how He will just make His choice, totally neglecting ours… it just doesn't fit with His plan which includes watching His most BELOVED SON DIE .. I am not convinced God is so callous.

    I think Calvin IS anti-missionary since when introducing the gospel to heathens, the doctrine of Calvin is sure to be nonsense without an entrenchment into some fairly sordid details. Just explain his picture for example. One catches flies better with honey.

    • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

      Man centered sensationalism without a shred of objective biblical substance but your subjective emotions only.

    • http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville

      Here is about your view: http://youtu.be/EcOI1Nw3CTg

    • ByHisGraceAlone

      ToHelenof Troy: ANY of who…His people, His elect…2Peter 3:9…Take a look at who this scripture was addressed to in 2Peter 1:1-4…you will see WHO the "ANY" …toward US-WORD, that ALL of US should come to repentance… I pray the Lord will OPEN your eyes to see the truth and the truth shall make YOU free!!!!

      • Despeville

        Indeed and in a very verse before, in 2 Peter 3:8 it says BELOVED which according to her would have to be anybody even the unbelievers which is a complete nonsense in the context of Peter's words.

        But do not overlook this one fact, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that ANY should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

        (2 Peter 3:8-10 ESV)

  • ByHisGraceAlone

    I was once asked a very simple question and I was just stumped as to how to answer it, according to scripture…"Are you born again because you believed or did you believe because you were born again?" Here is the scripture answer to this question…Romans 10:14-21… How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THEM THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, AND BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!" … This I learned from a Sovereign Grace Preacher!!! I had grown up in a Southern Baptist Church, my grandfather was a Southern Baptist Missionary with Primative Baptist roots, but I never really "got it" until I heard the Sovereign Grace Gospel…I was 22 years old and made my last rededication…and baptised with the true meaning of what it meant. Yes, Calvin IS MISSIONARY!!!!

    • Despeville

      Indeed and what most arminian/pelagian crowd does not know is that Reformed Geneva sent thousands of missionaries all over the world even as far as Brazil in XVI century and that Reformed Church of Geneva planted 2050 Christian Churches in Roman Catholic France and in just in 10 years alone…