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sbccalvin

Southern Baptist statement on Calvinism draws line

A group of current and former Southern Baptist leaders has signed a statement affirming what they call the "traditional Southern Baptist" understanding of the doctrine of salvation, with the goal of drawing a distinction with the beliefs of "New Calvinism."

The statement was posted May 31 at SBCToday.com and includes a preamble and 10 articles, along with signatures from two entity presidents (Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary's Paige Patterson and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary's Chuck Kelley), four state executive directors (Georgia's Bob White, Mississippi's Jim Futral, Louisiana's David Hankins, Alaska's Mike Procter), and in addition to Patterson, five other former SBC presidents (Bailey Smith, Jimmy Draper, Jerry Vines, Morris Chapman and Bobby Welch).

The document was titled, "A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation."

"For the most part, Southern Baptists have been glad to relegate disagreements over Calvinism to secondary status along with other important but 'non-essential' theological matters," the document reads in the preamble. "The Southern Baptist majority has fellowshipped happily with its Calvinist brethren while kindly resisting Calvinism itself. And, to their credit, most Southern Baptist Calvinists have not demanded the adoption of their view as the standard. We would be fine if this consensus continued, but some New Calvinists seem to be pushing for a radical alteration of this long-standing arrangement."

The document further asserts that the "vast majority of Southern Baptists are not Calvinists and that they do not want Calvinism to become the standard view in Southern Baptist life."

Continue reading at www.bpnews.net
 
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  • Evermyrtle

    If each individual will read the WORD OF GOD, pray and ask HIM for understanding, each time we read it. That is the first step in living according to HIS WILL. We do need to be concerned in other churchs and their works but we should pattern our decisions from HIS WORD after sincere prayer.

    Mark 112:28-31
    28. One of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that HE had answered them well, asked HIM, Which is the first commandment of all?
    29. JESUS answered him, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the LORD OUR GOD is one LORD:
    30. And thou shalt love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment
    31. And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There i none other commandment greater than these.

    My own commandment is,"Concern yourself with what GOD expects out of me and don't worry what my neighbor thinks, as long as I am obeying HIS WORD the best I can understand it.

    • Kalev

      Verse 29 & 30 is a quote from Deutoronomy 6:5 and verse 31 is from Leviticus 19:18. If Yeshua did away with the Law why does He constantly quote from the Law?

      • lambsev11

        Kalev, you must study the books of Hebrews, Romans, Galatians and the Gospels. The entire "law" was not done away with. We are responsible to God not to sin against Him or against each other. That is why we need to learn to love as Jesus and God love us. Study, be diligent and study. God HIMSELF will teach you.

        Jeremiah 31
        31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
        32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
        33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
        34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

        Jeremiah 9
        23 Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
        24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.

    • Despeville

      "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

      (John 10:15 ESV)

      Now compare that with Southern Baptists religion and its :

      "We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved."

      Article Three
      A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of
      God's Plan of Salvation

      • JustMe

        Im a Southern Baptist and I do not follow Calvinism. I have never heard of the Statement of Traditional southern baptist understanding or whatever that is. All I need to know is that God sent His Son to die for our sins and WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

        • Despeville

          Can you point me to that "WHOSOEVER" so popular between Arminian Baptists? Surely it is not in most abused verse of the Bible i.e. John 3:16 for the Greek and real English translation says:

          "πας ο πιστευων " – "everyone who BELIEVES"

          That is vastly different in substance and consequences as a popular man made myth of naked and stand alone: " WHO SO EVER"… Hope you can see that. Of course how that believing was originated in the one who believes is the core of the Gospel and the core of its denial by SBC statement but that is outside of the scope of this short response to you.

          • Dionesius3

            You obviously don't have a good grasp of "the English language" the phrase "everyone who believes" is the exact same as the old English "whosoever". Talk about hair splitting, and " hair brained" ideas and definitions. Do you get as uptight over the old English suffix "Eth" which when added to a verb denotes continual action?
            Such as is in the KJV reading of I John?
            And don't even think of starting your rant about the KJV. I don't believe it is the best, most correct, or error less. I personally prefer the NASB. When I preach or teach Scripture to a general audience.
            In personal study I generally used the Nestlé -Allein 21st. Edition of the Greek New Testament.

            But it is kind of funny how worked up you get over nothing.

          • Dionesius3

            You at times remind me of a person I used to play with as a kid. He was always fun to be around and play with as long as it was my toys we played with. But when we played with his toys EVERYTHING had to be done just so, and if you made one little mistake he got mad and put his toys away and wanted you to go home.
            EVERYTHING had to be done and said EXACTLY as he wanted it or ELSE.
            It didn't matter at all if how you did things didn't damage his toys at all, he wanted it done his way and his way only.

            That gets tiresome after a while…. Kind of like this…

          • Dionesius3

            And please do continue your rant about how ONLY Calvinist can interpret Scripture correctly. Gosh, I know you must just be bursting at the seams to say it again.

          • Despeville

            And please do continue your rant about how ONLY Calvinist can interpret Scripture correctly. "

            More simplistic straw man production instead of dealing with facts. You love your straw man don't you?
            You have a whole platoon of them to make you more convinced in your traditions.

          • Dionesius3

            Nope, I think you have the market cornered when it comes to straw men ther Desp…

          • Despeville

            Empty, parrot like rhetoric with zero of substance on a topic at hand. How telling…

          • Despeville

            Hmmm so your fuzzy recollections about your childhood friend have a bearing as to the authority, perspicuity and trustworthiness of the Word of God in every detail? I have seen many crude straw man but this one is probably the most rubbish like I have ever seen. Not even Jeff Dixon descends to this level of absolutely vain and meaningless analogy. Wow.

            Guess what your childhood experience, or your teenage experience or your adult experience or your now old man experience has absolutely no bearing on the Biblical text. None whatsoever and it will not change it of remove it to fit it to your traditions that you have bought in. You can tell us your stories but do not imagine that they have any connection with the biblical truth at hand. None. Zero. John 3:16 does not say what your Arminian traditions make you say about it:

            "πας ο πιστευων " – "everyone who BELIEVES" IS NOT just naked, stand alone and universalistic: "WHOSOEVER" and you know it you just value your traditions more than the Biblical truth whether you recognize it or not.

          • Dionesius3

            You are without a doubt IGNORANCE personified.

          • Despeville

            If not straw man then ad hominem insults… How is any of that applying to

            "πας ο πιστευων " – "everyone who BELIEVES" being of different substance than your stand alone universalistic isogesis of the text with a slogan of "WHO SO EVER" pronounced that way too?

          • Getoveryourself

            Agreed, I feel no need to try and argue with someone so oblivious as desp seems to be.

          • Despeville

            You feel "no need" because you have no arguments to offer. Just be honest about that and do not pretend that you are riding on your high horse… :)

          • Despeville

            PLEASE HELP THE OBLIVIOUS THEN… In your high y=understanding and knowledge please explain to me factually and on the precise topic the clear contradiction and denial of the Words of Christ by your denomination in their official statement:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

            "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            Will you do that or will you pretend that you can but you will not for you are too high for this or will you go to the straw men party with another besides the point story making where Dionesius376 and other traditions of men preferring Arminians are dancing away their required discernment?

          • Justme

            I read the NASB as well as many other versions including the Geneva. Please continue your blow hard attitude elsewhere. I believe in zjesus Christ, I will be in heaven some day and you, dear sir, are not mine nor anyone else's judge.

          • Despeville

            "..are not mine nor anyone else's judge."

            I am not nor do I aspire to be. What I want is to discuss the Biblical text and its facts something you and your fellow Arminians refuse or are unable to do preferring instead to discuss me :) Your evasions never fail while your substance all the time…

          • Despeville

            You obviously don't have a good grasp of "the English language" the phrase "everyone who believes" is the exact same as the old English "whosoever"

            Hahaha really so in your English "whosoever" also contains a verb of "believes" Wow that is truly a "revolutionary" and "evolutionary" but certainly not English… The rest as usual completely besides the point…

          • Despeville

            Dionesius

            ' the phrase "everyone who believes" is the exact same as the old English "whosoever"

            I am still waiting for your explanation of your "English" where pronoun "whosoever" is "EXACT SAME" as pronoun and qualifying it verb as in "everyone who believes" as in original Greek of John 3:16 of "πας ο πιστευων "… Can you substantiate that? This claim of yours also presents interesting logical problem or rather your complete abandonment of it when it comes to rhetoric in defense of your traditions :)

          • Dionesius3

            I am still waiting to see some evidence of intelligence.

          • Despeville

            Hhahaha too late for that, not in a guy who claims that a pronoun and qualifying it verb are "EXACT SAME" they are just the same as 2 is "EXACT SAME" as 1 hahahhahaahahaahhahahahahahhaaha

  • Robert De Leon

    Jesus Christ is our contemporary
    Calvinism is a fake doctrine, a Protestant “deformer” out of many. Calvinists think that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ is only in Heaven.
    They say that we can’t do anything about predestination. Thus John Calvin put a chain on men and – worst of all – he put a chain on God.
    Of course God gave us His Grace but He gave us freedom as well. Freedom to reject His Grace. Freedom to accept His Grace. John Calvin was irrational and anti-Biblical. “Serbio Arbitrio” it doesn’t exist. What exists is the Freedom, the human free will.
    A main problem with Calvin and other “deformers” is to reject deeds, against what we read on the Bible (Matt, 5:20; Matt 25:31-46; Lk 13:13-14; James 2:14-26, just some biblical examples).
    The center of Christianity is a present Jesus Christ, that is to say His almighty presence in nowadays living.
    Due to His Passion, Death and Resurrection He is alive, here and now.
    Jesus Christ is not a Man who lived in the past, a Man who lived a long time ago and now He is only in Heaven.
    He is a God of living people not from death.
    If He is not alive nothing is worthy. Furthermore He still is giving us His love. He still is giving us His Grace. That’s why life suffers a transformation and in the end He will take us to Eternity.
    Robert.

    • Despeville

      Fake is you DeMelon and your Roman works based damning system with fake "gospel" fake "vicar of Christ" and all the rest of your damning idolatry. You are a debilitating ignorant who never did and will never learn past the pamphlets your men in dresses fed you with.

      • Robert De Leon

        The donkey speaking about ears.
        No wonder you are desperate.
        Robert.

        • Despeville

          DeMelon you are as bogus as you are pathetic in your religiosity of men.

  • Bob Mitchell

    Just preach the Gospel, and you don't have to worry about being Calvinist or Arminian! Everybody agrees we have to "sow" the Gospel!

    • keyboardshark

      Amen, Bob. K.I.S.S. (Keep It Stupidly Simple)

      "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

      2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

      3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

      4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

      5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

      6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."
      I Corinthians 15

      • Despeville

        OK when you stop kissing then you will know that there is more even though the act of repentance and faith can be done with way less:

        For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

        (Colossians 2:1-5 ESV)

        • keyboardshark

          Yes, absolutely there are more details that can be fleshed out. I did not intend to promote 'easy believism' but on the other hand, some try to make salvation complicated by listing all that man must "do" when in fact, it is all God's action.

          • Despeville

            Indeed it is from A to Z and that is also why this truth stands forever:

            I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
            (Revelation 22:13 ESV)

  • Steve03

    How do they square this with the Baptists' foundational belief that "Mens religion to God, is betwixt God and themselves"? Apparently some priest-believers' interprettions of Scripture are now more equal than others.

  • Terry Elston

    @ Robert de Leon- you have obviously not read and studied the works of John Calvin.

    • Robert De Leon

      How do you know? Did you meet me 30 years ago? Of course I've studied Luther, Calvin and another heretics.
      Robert.

      • Despeville

        Hahahahah how? Because you are nauseatingly ignorant and have no clue about what you mumble about in your hatred of the Gospel and re exposed by Reformation. That is how. You have studied NOTHING liar. I have asked you many times to name the works and the primary sources from Reformers that you have "studied" and you refuse to name them for you know I will call you on that lie.

      • Despeville

        30 years is along time especially given the spiritual lobotomy and intellectual one too that was performed on you by Roman charlatans in black dresses…

        • Robert De Leon

          You are a good son of John Calvin, the heretic, intolerant, anti-biblical and dictator "defomer" from XVI Century.
          Robert.

          • Despeville

            You are a good son of a Roman whore with its damnable idolatry that corrupted you entirely.

  • lambsev11

    "Calvinism emphasized divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasized human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine that Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them." quote by Phillip Schaff

    • Despeville

      Calvinism never de-emphasized nor does it minimize or skip human responsibility in salvation… You need to study more before you put this type of misrepresentation on unless you do not mind being dishonest and ignorant.

      • lambsev11

        Take it up with Phillip Schaff. By the way, did you know that your man John Calvin had a heretick named Severtus put to death?

        • Despeville

          "John Calvin had a heretick named Severtus put to death?"

          Please… :) Did you know that he wwas visiting him in jail almost every day? Did you know that he begged him to recant his heresy? Did you know that city/states in medieval Europe treated heresy as an act of treason against the STATE? Did you know that this decision was made by City/State Geneve in broad consultation and support with and by other Swiss City states? Did you know that Calvin as a called witness in theology had no other choice by to comply with the law of City state where he lived and which demanded his performance according to its law?
          Did you know how much you did not know and how much more you still do not???

          Philip Schaff IS NOT A THEOLOGIAN… He is a historian. Can you perceive a difference???

          • Robert De Leon

            John Calvin was the worst intolerant and dictator of his "church" (?) in Geneva. Most historians say so (except – of course – Calvinists)
            Robert.

          • Despeville

            Most? Hahahahahahhahaah can you name them spin doctor of shallow and bogus lies and nonsense?
            Go ahead name them and educate us… You will not for you are a bogus pretender and have no clue what you
            are mumbling about past your brainwashing pamphlets from your men in dresses.

          • Observer

            You lose your credibility with your mean-spiritedness.

          • Despeville

            Maybe but I am a sinner just as you are and will you claim that you cannot possibly be mean? I show you one prophet that was super mean and mock and in rather disturbing way his false opponents. Not that I would measure to him but just to show you that your implied political correctness is not biblical:

            And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
            (1 Kings 18:27 ESV)

            Do I need to provide for you a literal translation of what is described as "he is relieving himself"?

  • Despeville

    'We deny that Adam's sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person's free will or rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned. "

    Well Southern Baptists you can deny all you want but that will not remove it from the Scriptures nor it will change the fact that you are semi pelagian now and in in the drift of Rome…

    as it is written:
    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”
    “Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
    “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
    “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    in their paths are ruin and misery,
    and the way of peace they have not known.”
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    (Romans 3:10-18 ESV)

    "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person."

    Really? Well then Southern Baptists bobbling happily in the wake of Rome then you must also believe that entire world past, now and future consisted, consists and will consists of nobody else but sheep and sheep only because Christ said that he did not sacrifice Himself for "every person" as you wickedly assert and lie but for His sheep and sheep only:

    "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

    (John 10:15 ESV)

    Now compare that with Southern Baptists religion:

    "We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved."

    Baptists says "every person" Christ said "sheep" and Baptists deny that. Who are you going to believe? Baptists? If so then where are the goats Southern Baptists? On the moon?

    And on and on it goes… and Baptists are bobbling along.

    • lambsev11

      Despeville, Do you know who Jesus sheep are? "All that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Do you know who Jesus will accept and who He will deny? "By their fruits you will know them." Can you forbid any man to receive God's grace? "Suffer the little children to come unto me, forbid them not."
      Let God be God Despeville. You will have enough troubles being yourself.

      • Despeville

        Sev11,

        Thanks for this shenanigan but it is completely besides the point I was making. Assuming your theory of God looking down the corridors of time and seeing his potential sheep according to theirs and not His decision (which is completely unbiblical and alien to the Gospel by the way) how is that changing the fact that CHRIST DIED FOR THE SHEEP and SHEEP only potential or not? Can you actually think or surface level is your preferable domain and comfort?

        • Robert De Leon

          lambsev11 is right. You have enough problems being yourself, desperate.
          Robert.

          • Despeville

            Ad hominem is the only thing you are good at Robert. You have nothing else… Ooops. I forgot your quote cheat sheet from some laem RC site.

          • Despeville

            DeMelon you are the most ignorant RC religious I have ever met in my life and I seen thousands of Roman papists all over the world.

        • Dionesius3

          Yep, he died for the sheep, but do you personally know who the sheep are? I doubt it. The emphasis of the statement, which by the way has ample Biblical proof provided if you take the time to read it, was to indicate that We have no means by which we can know who are sheep and who are goats. And since we have no means whereby we can determine such things, baptist will treat EVERY man, woman, and child as if they are one of the sheep. We will witness, preach, teach, exhort, and beg them to come to Christ. That is the point, although it is not the full historical reason that Southern Baptists rejected full Calvinism. The full historical reason is rather ugly, and VERY embarrassing for Calvinist . But if you insist I will gladly reveal that history for all to read Despeville.
          As it stands the majority of Southern Baptist do reject Calvinism, but not all. There are now, and has always been, at least since the Civil War, some full Calvinist who are Southern Baptist.

          • Despeville

            'Yep, he died for the sheep, but do you personally know who the sheep are?"

            That is the straw man and besides the point. A rather crude trick you play on yourself to avoid what is unavoidable and that is a BIBLICAL FACT that Christ DID NOT DIE FOR THE GOATS i.e. unbelievers. He DID not as he explicitly presents and affirms in His own words:

            just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
            (John 10:15 ESV)

            'That is the point, although it is not the full historical reason that Southern Baptists rejected full Calvinism."

            Again that is besides the point and a complete fallacious evasion and not honest approach to obvious and glaring denial of words of Christ by SBC. Please spare yourself your bogeyman of slavery. We have been through this before and this is another straw man at this point.

          • Dionesius3

            Des, you will never understand why we reject Calvinism unless you understand slavery, the Civil War, and Jim Crow laws passed in the south. Calvinism made us who we are today as Southern Baptists, and following Calvinism almost destroyed us. We rejected it not because it is illogical, not because we believe it un biblical, but because it almost killed us.

            I know you don't want to discuss it, because you know and I know it is an UGLY and NASTY history. But it is Calvinist doctrine 100%. It was a logical and Biblical defense for slavery and hatred that was almost universally built by Calvinist for Calvinist. And for Southern Baptists and most southern Presbyterians , it is something we don't like to talk about and remember but it is what it is.

            You totally miss the point, we are not Arminian, neither are we Calvinist. and we never likely will be either.
            We don't attack Calvinist, and in fact there are several Calvinist Southern Baptist pastors and churches. I enjoy discussing issues with you but your barking up the wrong tree here. I am 98% Calvinist myself, but I and most Southern Baptist will never accept full Calvinism.

          • Despeville

            More bush beatings. More dances with straw men. FORGET Calvinism. Look ate your denomination unblushingly DENYING Christ and DENYING His teaching. Will you face it or not? Will you actually stop playing evasion trick on yourself?

            Words of Christ are at stake here and they are being publicly denied:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

            "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

          • Despeville

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            Them Baptists obviously know more and better than Christ… :)

          • Dionesius3

            A fellow reverend from Virginia agreed that on no other subject “are [the Bible’s] instructions more explicit, or their salutary tendency and influence more thoroughly tested and corroborated by experience than on the subject of slavery.”  The Methodist Episcopal Church, South, asserted that slavery “has received the sanction of Jehova.”  As a South Carolina Presbyterian concluded: “If the scriptures do not justify slavery, I know not what they do justify.” 

      • Despeville

        Can you think or you always in an autopilot?

        "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

        (John 10:15 ESV)

        Now compare that with Southern Baptists religion and its :

        "We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved."

        Article Three
        A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of
        God's Plan of Salvation

        • Dionesius3

          Yep, but here is Southern Baptist Scripture proof for the statements made in Article three, have you read them?
          Psalm 22:1-31; Isaiah 53:1-12; John 12:32, 14:6; Acts 10:39-43; Acts 16:30-32; Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:10-14; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-20; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; Hebrews 9:12-15, 24-28; 10:1-18; I John 1:7; 2:2

          • Despeville

            One at the time please otherwise it is obfuscation and not a factual discussion. How do you reconcile Baptists explicitly denying what Christ said? And please do not tell me about "potential sheep" that can vote itself into kingdom according to popular myths of men for that straw man does not change anything and does not erase the fact that Christ did not die for the goats. Something poor lambsev11 does not understand.

          • Dionesius3

            Read the verses, and you will get the idea.

          • Despeville

            Do not hide behind the lists and do not obfuscate a glaring contradiction that you cannot avoid and cannot escape:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

          • Dionesius3

            And I don't hide behind lists, the Scriptures are straight from the Bible and are not had to understand. But you might want a Baptist nearby to explain some of the finer points for you. LOL

          • Despeville

            That put down nor the list does not supersede the obvious denial of Christ's Word by your Baptists which is documented here, plain to see and which you can only ignore, evade and minimize…

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

          • Dionesius3

            You really enjoy repeating yourself don't you?
            Again it is a discussion that is better suited to another time and another place.

            And you will not change anyone's mind by continuing. So give it a rest already.

          • Despeville

            I only repeat that what is avoided which this is and there will not be another place…

          • Dionesius3

            O.K. You asked for it;
            Firstly, Southern Baptists rejected Calvinism as a result of the outcome of the Civil War. Before the Civil War, and for many years afterwards, the majority of Southern Baptists were staunch Calvinists. The Calvinist beliefs are what led to their even being a Southern Baptist Convention. Before the Civil War there was only the American Baptists. But during the period leading up to the Civil War the northern Baptists pastors began to move away from Calvinism, and started moving toward Arminianism. The Southern pastors rejected this and began working towards building a new Convention which would exclude Arminians. At the same time anti-slavery preachers began to inflame and agitate for the northern Baptists to exclude the Calvinists. 

            The results was that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed and excluded Arminians, as well as anti-slavery agitators. Immediately following this the Civil War began and it was Southern Baptist, and Presbyterian Calvinists who provided the Moral and Biblical justification for slavery, and the Just War doctrine which was WIDELY preached and used to generate large numbers of volunteers for the Confederate States army. These same Calvinist preachers became the chaplains for this " Grand Army of the Lord" who would smite the ungodly north that desires to destroy the God ordained institution of slavery.

            There are literally thousands of sermons, addresses, lectures, books, pamphlets, et al. That have been preserved and are readily available for anyone to study. The logic is flawless, the Scriptural proof is perfect. But the message is abominable. And it is so ONLY because it is Calvinism carried to its logical conclusion. Almost all Calvinist in America agreed with the statements these Southerners made. 

            And when the War was finally lost the Calvinist began shouting that it was because of the sinfulness of the leaders of the Confederacy that God allowed the Godless Northerners to humble the South. They then set about providing the Moral and Biblical justification for the Jim Crow laws enacted to keep the God forsaken N_____s from having any real place in the south.

            It took many years to erase this ugly blot from both the Southern Baptists and The Presbyterians in the South. In many areas it was not fully erased until the 1960's and 1970's. But by 1925 the Calvinists were no longer the Majority in Southern Baptist churches. And this is when the first Baptist Faith and Message document was put together. It's purpose was two-fold, it was firstly was to be a definitive statement that excluded Calvinism so that the past sins could never be repeated. Secondly, it was to be a defense against full Arminianism, which was and is seen to be a totally false and illogical position.

            By the way, MANY Presbyterian churches ceased to exist in the deep south because they would not and did not reject the Calvinist teachings that spawned the Civil War and the Jim Crow laws of the south. Southern Baptist recognized that if we did not reject Calvinism we would end up like the Presbyterian church in the south. 

            And so, we developed the Baptist Faith and Message, which gave enough freedom that Calvinists and non Calvinist Baptists could co-exist and cooperate in missions. It has been the most successful Protestant denomination in America for Many years now.

            From the 1930's untill the 1990's Southern Baptists have been the fastest growing Protestant church in America. But since the mid 1980's there has been a  growing belief that something is not working as well as it has in the past. We just finished a twenty five year struggle to root out Bibical Liberalism. And that battle was won, but in the mean time we have stopped growing and many are searching for the reason why.

            Calvinist, are now attempting to retake the Convention in an effort to "restore" our historic positions. They claim that the convention is not growing because God is not pleased with us rejecting Calvinism.
            But there are MANY who know this to be both false and misleading. There are many who like me recognize that we can NEVER go back to full Calvinism because of our history. And we recognize that the present problem has little to do with Calvinism and a lot to do with a loss of Biblical preaching and teaching from the pulpit of our churches.

            And like it or not Calvinism stinks to most Baptist because of what Calvinism did to our churches and to blacks during and after the Civil War. We are ashamed of our Calvinist history and we are suspicious of trying to bring it back. 

          • Despeville

            More Jesuit propaganda originated gibberish that matches your Roman originated "decisional salvation" theology and completely BESIDES THE POINT I AM MAKING here in connection of SBC anti biblical statement that also happens to be anti Reformation and anti Reformed Faith propaganda. How is any of that above skewed, biased and Rome propaganda steered view dealing with the issue at hand? :) It does not for you cannot deal with it for it is too obvious. That is why you need to drag this to somewhere else like your Jesuit propaganda because you cannot deal with facts… And the facts and just two from largely apostate SBC statement containing way more blatant denials of the Gospel of Christ:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

            "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            Now, all you can do is come up with more straw man and mostly from Jesuit counter reformation archives… Sad.

          • Dionesius3

            I've heard the Civil War and Slavery called just about everything, but now you dare try to assert that it is "Jesuit propaganda"???
            Every thing stated in my post is easily verifiable by anyone who wishes to look it up. Along with hundreds of thousands of pages written by your beloved Calvinist pastors telling the world how black skin is evidence of Gods judgement against the nego race. And it gets MUCH more vile and repulsive than that.

            Do you want me to start publishing the quotes and citations of what Calvinist pastors, teachers, and theologians, said on the issue?

            You know that I not only will, but I will drown you in the vile filth of your theology if you don't back off.

          • Dionesius3

            He a good starting point, written by pastor Joseph Ruggles Wilson who served the First Prebyterian Church Augusta Georgia in 1861;
            "        But my hearers, if you wish for further conviction, carry your belief of the essential rightness of slavery to the injunctions of our text, which the Apostle publishes for its conservation and perfection. He as much as says, that it is unnecessary to fear that this long-cherished institution will first give way before the enemies who press upon it from without. If slaveholders preserve it as an element of social welfare, in the spirit of the christian religion, throwing into it the full measure of gospel-salt allotted to it, and casting around it the same guardianship with which they would protect their family peace, if threatened on some other ground–they need apprehend nothing but their own dereliction in duty to themselves and their dependent servants. I mean, simply, that while we ought to allow no malignant interference from any quarter with the institution of which we are God's appointed guardians, and while we ought to be suitably alive to any threat of presumptuous violence which may seek to wrest from us our heaven-given rights in our heaven-allowed property–yet, after all, the wisdom"

            Shall I continue?

          • Dionesius3

            Here is another;
            "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

            Do we need yet more?

          • Despeville

            Yea, you need a sense of logic and substance instead of replacement straw men. Yawn.

          • Despeville

            Yawn, your Jesuit propaganda shenanigans are useless to this topic which is official denial of the Words of Christ by your Baptists… Where did you study church history in a Jesuit seminary?

          • Dionesius3

            Here is a short statement of fact for you about your beloved Calvinism.

            "In 1837, southerners in the Presbyterian denomination joined forces with conservative northerners to drive the antislavery New School Presbyterians out of the denomination. In 1844, the Methodist Episcopal Church split into northern and southern wings over the issue of slavery. In 1845, the Baptists in the South formed the Southern Baptist Convention due to disputes with Northern Baptists over slavery and missions.[110]
            Some members of fringe Christian groups like the Christian Identity movement, and the Ku Klux Klan (an organization dedicated to the "empowerment of the white race"), and Christian Reconstructionists still argue that slavery is justified by Christian doctrine today"

          • Dionesius3

            And yet another noble argument from a Great Calvinist who loved Scripture.
            "        We have also shown from the New Testament, that all the churches are recognized as composed of masters and servants; and that they are instructed by Christ how to discharge their relative duties; and finally that in reference to the question which was then started, whether Christianity did not abolish the institution, or the right of one Christian to hold another Christian in bondage, we have shown, that "the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" are, that so far from this being the case, it adds to the obligation of the servant to render service with good will to his master, and that gospel fellowship is not to be entertained with persons who will not consent to it!

                    I propose, in the fourth place, to show that the institution of slavery is full of mercy. I shall say but a few words on this subject. Authentic history warrants this conclusion, that for a long period of time, it was this institution alone which furnished a motive for sparing the prisoner's life. The chances of war, when the earth was filled with small tribes of men, who had a passion for it, brought to decision, almost daily, conflicts, where nothing but this institution interposed an inducement to save the vanquished. The same was true in the enlarged schemes of conquest, which brought the four great universal"

            From the wonderful tract titled, "SCRIPTURAL
            AND
            STATISTICAL VIEWS
            IN
            FAVOR OF SLAVERY,"
            By the wonderful Calvinist,
            THORNTON STRINGFELLOW, D. D.

          • Dionesius3

            There are thousands more where these came from, so do you wish to argue the point that CALVINISM IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CIVIL WAR?

          • Despeville

            All I now is that Jesuits are responsible for your brainwash and your avoidance of a real topic here too.

          • Dionesius3

            I know you live in a fairy tale land where Calvinism has never done any harm. And you are a FOOL for not comming to grips with YOUR CHOSEN THEOLOGY's failures.

          • Dionesius3

            And you are the one AVOIDING YOUR CLAVINISMS HISTORY OF LOVE FOR SLAVERY.

          • Despeville

            You are plainly stupid and a victim of Jesuit anti reformation propaganda. Im fact that propaganda goes in hand with the theology you share with Rome which is based on "decisional salvation" as enabled by the "decision of man" and not God…

            One name representative of whole swaths of Reformed Faith movement and leaders who fought against slavery way before Civil War (80 years) way before this country really meant anything in the world and on a different continent too. Read and catch your falling and dumb jaw for he was a fine Calvinist my dear Jesuit fan:

            William Wilberforce

          • Dionesius3

            I am very familiar with him and love his works. But he Was in the vastly small minority of your Calvinist brothers, and 98%of all Calvinist supported, defended, and propagated slavery.
            And you are the ONLY Jesuit I know, and your POPE was Calvin.
            Now for some more Calvinist Biblical interpretation that tells us how God hates negros and loves the white men who keep him in subjugation under Gods laws by enslaving him.

          • Dionesius3

            "The Presbyterian theologian Robert Lewis Dabney reminded his fellow Southern clergymen that the Bible was the best way to explain slavery to the masses.  “We must go before the nation with the Bible as the text, and ‘thus sayeth the lord’ as the answer,” he wrote.  “We know that on the Bible argument the abolition party will be driven to unveil their true infidel tendencies.   The Bible being bound to stand on our side, they have to come out and array themselves against the Bible.”

          • Despeville

            I am very familiar with him and love his works. But he Was in the vastly small minority of your Calvinist brothers, and 98%of all Calvinist supported, defended, and propagated slavery. "

            Nope, the only vast thing here is your vast ignorance exemplified in your naiveté of assertion and imagination that Wilberforce was a lone ranger… I could give you many more Calvinistic names who fought alongside with him and later in other countries for the same cause but that will not serve any purpose for a man on Jesuit mission and Jesuit agenda. You are a long term product of Jesuit counterreformation and you are even oblivious to the fact how you show it in your attacks on Reformation and your Roman like "decisional salvation" religious treadmill like theology. Now good bye for I have better things to do than answer to straw man of Jesuit pupil like you.

          • Dionesius3

            You can't give a buch of names because there were ONLY a very small minority of Calvinist who fought slavery you liar.

          • Despeville

            Where did you study church history in a Jesuit seminary? They brainwashed you good. No wonder you have so much in common with Rome in your "decisional" baptist theology.

          • Dionesius3

            And your more papist than I am about your Calvinist filth.

          • Despeville

            Now you are showing your true colors Jesuit pupil… I always knew who you were despite you trying to play "kumbaya" with me… The Jesuit stench was always there.

          • Dionesius3

            "Reverend Furman of South Carolina insisted that the right to hold slaves was clearly sanctioned by the Holy Scriptures.  He emphasized a practical side as well, warning that if Lincoln were elected, “every Negro in South Carolina and every other Southern state will be his own master; nay, more than that, will be the equal of every one of you.  If you are tame enough to submit, abolition preachers will be at hand to consummate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands.”

          • Despeville

            The topic is the counter biblical statement of SBC and not Jesuit propaganda you have bought in along with your Roman "decisional salvation theology"…

          • Dionesius3

            The topic is the falsehood of Calvinism and its damnable doctrines that create the conditions necessary for slavery, war, murder, and persecution on a grand scale.

            Of course you deny that any of that happened as a direct result of Calvinism. And you are a fool for it.

          • Despeville

            Jesuit fan if you lazy religious Arminian eyes are too lazy to lift up here is the title for this thread:

            Southern Baptist statement on Calvinism draws line"

            That would imply a critique or review of that mentioned and quoted statement by your denomination which is what I am doing which you even noted with your lazy eyes that I quote and frequently. You have left your brain in your Baptist coat room and that is why you will not engage your fellow Baptists when they deny the words of Christ:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

            "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            Now, all you can do is come up with more straw man and mostly from Jesuit counter reformation archives… Sad.

          • Dionesius3

            You never had a brain to start with, all you have is Calvinist trash for a brain. All you can do is spout the same old tired crap that your Calvinist forefathers spouted.

            Why don't you go the whole route and start advocating for the return of slavery. All your Calvinist forefathers loved it. Do you only accept those parts of Calvinism that you like?

            Are you afraid of being a "full Calvinist" ?

          • Dionesius3

            And lambsev will likely never get it.

          • Despeville

            I would have to agree with that but there is a hope for you and on a look out for you too :)

          • Dionesius3

            There is no hope for me, Lol I have accepted as much of Calvinism as is possible for me to do. I like Luther much say "here I stand, I can do no other". As to my chosen denomination It will be a long time before full Calvinism returns to the majority, and it may never. But again that is a discussion I would rather have in private with you rather than on here. As the reasoning and proofs would do way too much damage to be worth it.

          • Dionesius3

            And the statement released is not illogical, it is just selective in Biblical scope, we choose to ignore some verses just as all good Calvinist do as well.

          • Despeville

            "it is just selective in Biblical scope"

            Huh? Is that some kind of a syllogism that suppose to justify a clear contradiction with the Words of Christ? You actually allow yourself to fall for this :) Nope, it says what it says and the whole practice of SBC confirms it.

          • Dionesius3

            Here is some comprehensive Calvinism,
            "As the Southern Presbyterian wrote, “It would be a glorious sight to see this Southern Confederacy of ours stepping forth amid the nations of the world animated with a Christian spirit, guided by Christian principles, administered by Christian men, and adhering faithfully to Christian precepts,” ie., the slavery of fellow human beings."

          • Despeville

            You need to educate yourself about your Jesuit and counter-reformation origins and how you smear whole swaths of Church by equivocating ignorance of some and in America with popular support of all. You are as dumb and as June 20th is long. Shame on you and beat it Jesuit protagonist.

          • Dionesius3

            What say you then, do you adhere to Calvinism or not? If you do then defend these dedicated Calvinist who proved beyond any doubt that God loved slavery and the Bible supported slavery, and it was "Ordained" of God from all-eternity.

            Tell us Calvinists what do you answer?

            I can tell you what you will answer, NOTHING!

          • Despeville

            You need to educate yourself about your Jesuit and counter-reformation origins and how you smear whole swaths of Church by equivocation ignorance of some with popular support. You are as dumb and as June 20th is long. Shame on you and beat it Jesuit protagonist.

          • Dionesius3

            What say you then, do you adhere to Calvinism or not? If you do then defend these dedicated Calvinist who proved beyond any doubt that God loved slavery and the Bible supported slavery, and it was "Ordained" of God from all-eternity.

            Tell us Calvinists what do you answer?

            I can tell you what you will answer, NOTHING!

          • Despeville

            None of your business Jesuit amateur.

          • Eric

            You really don't get it do you? If the game is finding quotations from professing Calvinists saying wrong things, then I will surely join you in the hunt. Would you also be interested in looking for professing Baptists saying wrong things? Do you have to take Fred Phelps, or do we?

            It's dizzying how quickly you switch sides. Two weeks ago, you were more than happy to elevate your man-made traditions above the Bible when it came to the topic of alcohol. Now, however, you want to pretend as if you're all about the Bible as you beat your chest loudly over the "Calvinist" boogeyman. Interestingly though, you never bothered quoting the Bible. Are you really trying to make the case that there were no Northern Calvinists during this time? Your history is as skewed as your (lack of) exegesis.

            Baptists are like liberals: they are masters at pointing out what they don't believe, yet have a exceptionally difficult time explaining what they DO believe. I suppose this is probably why the "Baptist Theology" section at the library contains the same number of volumes as the "Peruvian Naval Victories" section.

          • Despeville

            Eric,

            Thanks and as usual absolutely brilliant. Do notice that despite numerous quotations of just two out of so many fallacious claims made in Southern Baptist statement; claims that directly oppose the Gospel and Words of Christ our Baptist on the anti Reformation mission did not bother to answer factually, not even once…

            Instead he loves to smear the man of God and the movement of God as a properly indoctrinated by counter reformation religious in the drift of the mother ship Rome.

            "… It may appear that what the liberal theologian has retained after abandoning to the enemy one Christian doctrine after another is not Christianity at all, but a religion which is so entirely different from Christianity as to be long in a distinct category."

            Machen, J. Gresham (2010-03-24). Christianity and Liberalism (pp. 6-7).Kindle Edition.

          • Dionesius3

            I know you live in a fairy tale land where Calvinism has never done any harm. And you are a FOOL for not comming to grips with YOUR CHOSEN THEOLOGY's failures and verified history.

          • Despeville

            hahhahahaha

          • Despeville

            See the reason I am a Calvinist is simple. I believe the Gospel is consistent and clear and Reformed Faith is consistent and clear with that and internally, at least the historic one. I am not so sure about this late fad of "YRR" which looks like another personality boot camp.

          • Dionesius3

            Like I said, I am with you 98% but I am Southern Baptist and I do understand why this statement was made. And I also understand why Calvinism has been rejected by the majority in the SBC.

          • Despeville

            Again the statement is not bothering Calvinists so much as it is and it should bother all Christians regardless of their theological make up. It should because it contains statements that are in direct opposition to Christ and His statements.

            Check this comment out and more importantly listen to the program on the link below. I have not listened to it yet but I will as I am sure there will be a lot of factual and substantiated information rebutting this SBC shenanigan:

            "As announced, we did a special "extra" DL this week, a Radio Free Geneva discussing the aforementioned statement defining "the" traditional Southern Baptist view of the gospel. In other words, we reviewed the very poorly written, confusing, straw-man filled document produced by a group of traditional synergists in the SBC. If you think I am being just a bit harsh, please remember something: these men include some whose credibility is more than suspect (Emir Caner), and who have been corrected on their misapprehensions more than once, but refuse to abandon their errors even when incapable of providing a defense (David Allen), as well as others who just simply should know better. We are facing some mighty big challenges in our culture, and yet we have these folks running around lighting up theological straw men, all hoping their audience remains in the dark as to the real issues? Forgive me for being just a little bit less than patient and snuggly. The matter is vitally important—God's truth always is—and this cavalier, shallow, self-contradictory and simply unbiblical document (did you know there is no difference between the effectual call and the universal call of the gospel? Yeah, try to fit that into Romans 8:29-30!) is in no way a positive contribution to the debate. So, we put in about 90 minutes to go through and provide a response. In the process, Rich and I sang a duet (seriously), and I managed to insult all the ladies in the audience by making the factual observation that men are genetically designed to make cool noises (like machine gun fire, jet airplanes, motorcycles, that kind of thing) and ladies are not. You'll have to listen to figure that part out."

            LINK: http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20120601.mp3

          • Despeville

            Ok, I am going to bed. Think this through. There is NO way to explaining this away but a straw man of "we do not know" for that is not the point and none is arguing for that. SBC is not only proclaiming something completely contradictory to Chris's words but also negatively denying His words:

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

            "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            God Bless in His truth, however unpopular it is…

          • Despeville

            "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person."

            VERSUS:

            "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

            (John 10:15 ESV)

            Them Baptists obviously know more and better than Christ… :)

          • Dionesius3

            Here is some more GOOD CALVINIST BIBLE TEACHING FOR YOU DESP..
            .
            "As Pastor Dunwody of South Carolina summed up the case:  “Thus, God, as he is infinitely wise, just and holy, never could authorize the practice of a moral evil.  But god has authorized the practice of slavery, not only by the bare permission of his Providence, but the express provision of his word.  Therefore, slavery is not a moral evil.”  Since the Bible was the source for moral authority, the case was closed.  “Man may err,” said the southern theologian James Thornwell, “but God can never lie.”

          • Despeville

            Beat it Jesuit pupile…

          • Dionesius3

            ACCEPT YOUR HISTORY Calvinist puke!

          • Despeville

            Beat it Jesuit fruit.

          • Dionesius3

            Answer this you lying Calvinist puke, Do you acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of your Calvinist brothers writings? Or are they made-up? And if these were not made up quotes of good Calvinist teachers, then do you accept their flawless logic, perfect biblical arguments, and God-Ordained conclusions or not?

            We're they wrong? Give an answer if you dare you silly Calvinist.

    • JustMe

      We believe that we are all gulity of sin and must be saved to enter the kingdom of heaven.

      • Despeville

        Great but how is that of any substance to the controversy presented here and involving statement by SBC in presented particulars?

      • Joe Anzilotti

        Justyou I believe that the earth revolves around the sun. Is there anything else that we should believe together?

        • Despeville

          Yes Joe, I believe ice cream is great when outside hits 30 degrees centigrade which is 86 Fahrenheit.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Yes Despe, we are all as guilty as the day is long. Some of us will be in the City of God, some will be in that other location. God, being Who He is, already knows the tally. Our business is to live how He wants us to. There are many who will be be there in that City with us, and aren't quite certain about it yet–we are responsible to give them evidence that such a wonderful City exists. Some will not be there, no matter what we do–as evidenced clearly by history.

          • Despeville

            Yes, and I will be the lowest in that city but that lowest is higher if fact way higher than the highest here i the realm that is perishing daily.

            For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

            (Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Heck, I thought I was going to be the lowest! : ) God bless you brother.

          • Despeville

            Nope, you have been promoted :)

  • highplainsparson

    This is a good sign. It means our Calvinistic or Particular Baptist brothers are succeeding in stirring the pot after many years of arduous effort at reform. Preach it! Preach it! Let that gospel of sovereign grace for hopeless dead sinners fly!

    • Despeville

      They succeeding in drifting away from the Gospel as documented in part here:

      "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

      (John 10:15 ESV)

      Now compare that with Southern Baptists religion and its :

      "We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved."

      Article Three
      A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of
      "God's" Plan of Salvation

    • https://www.facebook.com/SonOfLiberty1776 Jared Myers

      I'm a Reformed Southern Baptist. We're doing what we can. ;-) Your support means volumes to us.

  • Phil

    And non-believers are drawn to Christ through HIS reflection in the lives of Believers. Look at the "love" displayed in some of these comments. What a shame.

    • Despeville

      John 6:44 please…

      • Evermyrtle

        There are many ways that JESUS CHRIST chooses to draw people to him. Many of the efforts fail because we refuse to be drawn. Sometimes, it may be something very small. Maybe, looking at a newborn baby to see it's perfection, 9O of body)suddenly it dawns on him, and he thinks,"such perfection cannot be done by man, there must be a GOD." It could be some horrible car crash and everyone comes out with no broken bones, not sign that they have been in an auto wreck, and a non believer thinks, "There has to be a GOD, no other way is possible that this miracle could happen". I do not believe GOD wastes any chance to draw a person to HIM to be saved. All of these events can fit John 6:44.

        • Despeville

          "There are many ways that JESUS CHRIST chooses to draw people to him"

          But in this particular Scripture i.e. John 6:44 and John 6:37 it is the Father that does drawing and giving of people and not Christ but then of course we have John 12:32 which points to one Godhead and unity of purpose.

          • EVERMYRTLE

            Does the ones that JESUS draws, count, do you think???? As 'bigboss' relates in John 12:32, I believe those HE draws are very important. and they would be lost without HIS WORK.

          • Despeville

            The Gospel is not about people contrary to what you have been exposed all your life.
            The Gospel is about God and His Glory and His mercy resulting in secondary issue
            i.e. salvation of some men.

            It is amazing to me see you people quoting to me John 12:32 after I quoted to you first
            while you run for cover from John 6:44 and John 6:37 or John 6:65 and so much other.
            I provided for you and Hoss unifying and reconciling principle between all of them yet
            you in your views cannot do that. Gee, I wonder why?

      • bighoss

        John 12:32 please….

        • Despeville

          Yes, please see it mentioned right above and 9 hours before your "please"…
          Are you picking on this contradiction below or you will go to the straw men part where Dionesius376, lambsev1139 and most of Evangelicalism is dancing their discernment out?

          "We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the SINS OF EVERY PERSON."

          "We DENY that Christ died ONLY FOR THE SINS of those who will be SAVED."

          VERSUS:

          "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the SHEEP."

          (John 10:15 ESV)

          God Bless in His truth, however unpopular it is…

          • Dionesius3

            Here is some good Calvinism for you Desp.

            "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

            Do we need yet more?

  • Evermyrtle

    Micah 4:1-3

    1. In the last days it shall come to pass , that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; an people shall flow unto it.
    2. And many nations shall come, and say, "Come, and let us g up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the GOD of Jacob; and HE will teach us of HIS ways, and we will walk in HIS paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the WORD OF THE LORD from Jerusalem.
    3. And HE shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares, and their spears into pruning hoods: nation shall ot lift up a swore against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

    These scriptures can be found in Isaiah 2: 2-4, also!

    • Despeville

      Why don't deal with Scriptures quoted here and Baptists denial of thereof?

  • Vladimir

    Despeville, are you a four point Calvinist?

    • Joe Anzilotti

      No, he pick and chooses like me. It depends on who wants to know. : )

      • Vladimir

        So, if a Catholic asks, you are a four point, if a fellow Calvinist asks you are a five point?

        • Joe Anzilotti

          Vlad, just because one remarks that God knows, which He does, who is going to be present in His kingdom and who is going to be present in that other venue, does not mean that anyone is blocking your entrance into God's kingdom. This is no reason to go into an apoplexy fit. If anyone chooses to be with God, based on Christ's blood, anyone can be with God. Calvinists, or for that matter, any other group, are not blocking anyone's appearance in the City of God.

          • Despeville

            Indeed God decides who is His sheep but that does not excuses anyone from his or hers responsibility before God and their already condemned state which can be only redeemed by Christ the Eternal God and a Second Person of One Triune God and by none else and certainly not by misrepresentation of Christ or any other "Christ"…

          • Dionesius3

            Here is some good Calvinist teaching for you,
            The Southern Presbyterian of S.C observed that there was a “religious character to the present struggle.  Anti-slavery is essentially infidel.  It wars upon the Bible, on the Church of Christ, on the truth of God, on the souls of men.”  A Georgia preacher denounced abolitionists as “diametrically opposed to the letter and spirit of the Bible, and as subversive of all sound morality, as the worst ravings of infidelity.”  The prominent South Carolina Presbyterian theologian James Henley Thornwell did not mince his words.  “The parties in the conflict are not merely abolitionists and slaveholders.  They are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, Jacobins on the one side, and friends of order and regulated freedom on the other.  In one word, the world is the battleground – Christianity and Atheism the combatants; and the progress of humanity at stake.” 

          • Despeville

            Jesuit on a mission. You are as dumb as day is long.

          • Dionesius3

            Your an obfuscating liar Calvinist who Denys his history and the truth of Gods word as expounded by his forefathers in the faith. Do you repudiate these teachings?

            If so, how do you justify denying God's word and God ordained authority and order in the world?

            Answer lying Calvinist so all may see your true nature.

          • Despeville

            Take you pill and now all call your fellow Jesuit mentors…

        • Despeville

          If anyone asks I am a Reformed Christian also called by some Calvinist or by others Augustinian and by others yet as one adhering to the Doctrines of Grace as presented by the Lord of Glory Jesus Christ Second Person of YHVH and by His Apostles.

          • Dionesius3

            Here is some good Calvinism for you, do you accept it?

            "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

            Do we need yet more?

          • Despeville

            You need to educate yourself about your Jesuit and counter-reformation origins and how you smear whole swaths of Church by equivocation ignorance of some with popular support. You are as dumb and as June 20th is long. Shame on you and beat it Jesuit protagonist.

          • Dionesius3

            Your an obfuscating liar Calvinist who Denys his history and the truth of Gods word as expounded by his forefathers in the faith. Do you repudiate these teachings?

            If so, how do you justify denying God's word and God ordained authority and order in the world?

            Answer lying Calvinist so all may see your true nature.

          • Despeville

            I can see you learned a word from me Jesuit pupil. The only liar and emotionally unstable is you.
            Go and take your evening pill you need it bad.

      • Despeville

        No Joe, I do not and as I explained below 5 points is only an introduction, a shorthand a snapshot published to response to Jesuit counterreformation inspired remonstrance. I try to be consistent in my faith and that short response and introduction is actually biblical, factual, logical and flowing from each other and can be read here:

        "The Canons of Dordt" – http://bit.ly/Nqzj9

        Vlad, hope you will read this short rebuttal of Jesuit efforts and learn something in process too.

        • Joe Anzilotti

          Just an attempt at humor there. I know that you don't pick and choose; I generally don't either : )

          • Despeville

            Just making sure for the audience. I know you are consistent Joe. Read those please.

          • Despeville

            Joe check this what I am reading now:

            "it may appear that what the liberal theologian has retained after abandoning to the enemy one Christian doctrine after another is not Christianity at all, but a religion which is so entirely different from Christianity as to be long in a distinct category."

            Machen, J. Gresham (2010-03-24). Christianity and Liberalism (pp. 6-7). Unknown. Kindle Edition.

            80 plus year old work yet fresh as this morning's bagel.

            Machen, J. Gresham (2010-03-24). Christianity and Liberalism (p. 6). Unknown. Kindle Edition.

          • Despeville

            Joe,

            Check this out.. I am sure you will appreciate it, especially in term of goads/gonads confused one:

            "The modern world represents in some respects an enormous improvement over the world in which our ancestors lived; but in other respects it exhibits a lamentable decline. The improvement appears in the physical conditions of life, but in the spiritual realm there is a corresponding loss. The loss is clearest, perhaps, in the realm of art. Despite the mighty revolution which has been produced in the external conditions of life, no great poet is now living to celebrate the change; humanity has suddenly become dumb. Gone, too, are the great painters and the great musicians and the great sculptors. The art that still subsists is largely imitative, and where it is not imitative it is usually bizarre. Even the appreciation of the glories of the past is gradually being lost, under the influence of a utilitarian education that concerns itself only with the production of physical well-being."

            Machen, J. Gresham (2010-03-24). Christianity and Liberalism (pp. 9-10). Kindle Edition.

    • Despeville

      Vlad,

      Thanks for the question but by asking it you are showing how little you know about Reformed Faith which is simply re exposition of Apostolic Faith. How little you know of its historic background and church facts. That would be fine but elsewhere you pretend to be an expert on it and feel like you can make educated descriptions and judgments of it…
      Well, you should withheld from that until you study for a year at least…

      Reformed Faith is not encapsulated in or by so called TULIP or 5 points. Five Points of Reformed Faith were merely a concise response to first presented five points of remonstrance or counterreformation inspired, supported and frequently funded by Roman religion and specifically by its special religious ops – Jesuits. Asking or assuming that five points of Calvinism is all there is to Reformed Faith is like saying that drivers license is encapsulating to everything about the car; including research, design, testing, production, marketing, sales and warranting and service…

      But to simply answer your question: There are no "four point Calvinists" just as there are no partial drivers. Four pointers are really Amyraldians a direct and unfortunate heritage of Roman Catholic counterreformation and its poisonous leaven. That does not automatically imply that they are not Christians for they are in most cases yet their witness and understanding is weakened by Jesuit influence ever present even today especially when Evangelicalism is bastardized even more and slowly catching up in the drift after mothership of Rome…

      • Vladimir

        My wife mentioned to me that when she was growing up Baptist, she thought all Baptists were Calvinists. Are you a Baptist?

        • Despeville

          Apparently not as you can see by our Baptist spam here too. No I am not a Baptist and never was and never will be.

  • Dionesius3

    The true history of Calvinism is that it was the main justification for the Civil War, and that is exactly why Southern Baptist rejected it. But Calvinist try to cover up their history, they don't want to discuss it because it is a "straw man" argument.
    By the way, anything a Calvinist can't defend he calls it a "straw man" argument.

    Calvinist are blind, boorish, and completely unable to deal with their own doctrines history. They deny, obfuscate, lie, and avoid every attempt to bring up the GLARING falsehoods their teaches have promulgated, and the myriad suffering caused during and after the Civil War. Jim Crowe laws that were enacted in the south after the Civil War came straight from the minds and writings of Calvinist preachers, teachers, and theologians.

    Here is a sampling of the WONDERFUL truths taught by Calvinist;
    "Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage – Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

    "As Pastor Dunwody of South Carolina summed up the case;“Thus, God, as he is infinitely wise, just and holy, never could authorize the practice of a moral evil; But god has authorized the practice of slavery, not only by the bare permission of his Providence, but the express provision of his word; Therefore, slavery is not a moral evil.”; Since the Bible was the source for moral authority, the case was closed; “Man may err,” said the southern theologian James Thornwell, “but God can never lie.”

    "Reverend Furman of South Carolina insisted that the right to hold slaves was clearly sanctioned by the Holy Scriptures.  He emphasized a practical side as well, warning that if Lincoln were elected, “every Negro in South Carolina and every other Southern state will be his own master; nay, more than that, will be the equal of every one of you.  If you are tame enough to submit, abolition preachers will be at hand to consummate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands.”

    "The Presbyterian theologian Robert Lewis Dabney reminded his fellow Southern clergymen that the Bible was the best way to explain slavery to the masses.  “We must go before the nation with the Bible as the text, and ‘thus sayeth the lord’ as the answer,” he wrote.  “We know that on the Bible argument the abolition party will be driven to unveil their true infidel tendencies.   The Bible being bound to stand on our side, they have to come out and array themselves against the Bible.”

    "        But my hearers, if you wish for further conviction, carry your belief of the essential rightness of slavery to the injunctions of our text, which the Apostle publishes for its conservation and perfection. He as much as says, that it is unnecessary to fear that this long-cherished institution will first give way before the enemies who press upon it from without. If slaveholders preserve it as an element of social welfare, in the spirit of the christian religion, throwing into it the full measure of gospel-salt allotted to it, and casting around it the same guardianship with which they would protect their family peace, if threatened on some other ground–they need apprehend nothing but their own dereliction in duty to themselves and their dependent servants. I mean, simply, that while we ought to allow no malignant interference from any quarter with the institution of which we are God's appointed guardians, and while we ought to be suitably alive to any threat of presumptuous violence which may seek to wrest from us our heaven-given rights in our heaven-allowed property–yet, after all, the wisdom"

    • Despeville

      Jesuit protagonist is running in full amok now :) Does Rome pay you for that?

    • https://www.facebook.com/SonOfLiberty1776 Jared Myers

      Okay…..what-in-heck does ANY of this have to do with the theology behind what is commonly known as "Calvinism"???

  • Dionesius3

    Despeville said- "Joe,

    Check this out.. I am sure you will appreciate it, especially in term of goads/gonads confused one:

    "The modern world represents in some respects an enormous improvement over the world in which our ancestors lived; but in other respects it exhibits a lamentable decline. The improvement appears in the physical conditions of life, but in the spiritual realm there is a corresponding loss. The loss is clearest, perhaps, in the realm of art. Despite the mighty revolution which has been produced in the external conditions of life, no great poet is now living to celebrate the change; humanity has suddenly become dumb. Gone, too, are the great painters and the great musicians and the great sculptors. The art that still subsists is largely imitative, and where it is not imitative it is usually bizarre. Even the appreciation of the glories of the past is gradually being lost, under the influence of a utilitarian education that concerns itself only with the production of physical well-being."

    Machen, J. Gresham (2010-03-24). Christianity and Liberalism (pp. 9-10). Kindle Edition."

    Despeville is saying that Slavery, was a good thing that our ancestors practiced. He is defending his Calvinist trash forefathers who gave Justification for slavery, and Jim Crowe laws that were instituted in the South.
    He is apparently a closet white supremacist. Seeing as how he has no interest in answering the questions below,

    Are you a Calvinist?
    If so do you accept the teachings of the above quoted Calvinist pastors, teachers, and theologians?
    If you don't accept their teachings, how do you justify ignoring Gods word on the matter?
    How often have Calvinists teachings been proven wrong?

    • Despeville

      "Despeville is saying that Slavery, was a good thing that our ancestors practiced. "

      And now you purposefully lie… and you call yourself a Christian?

  • Despeville

    Here is from a rabid anti Calvinist Roger Olson who calls out what is also true about Baptists and other Evangelicals too…
    They are infected with ancient heresy of pelagianism:

    'It doesn’t matter what “most Baptists” believe or what is the “traditional Southern Baptist understanding.” For a long time I’ve been stating that most American Christians, including most Baptists, are semi-Pelagian, not Arminian and not merely non-Calvinist."

    Source: http://bit.ly/M4LWyT

    But they also are Arminians despite Olson's disclaimer