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catholic

When Evangelicals Turn Catholic

As you may have heard, a few days ago Jason Stellman, a PCA pastor in Seattle area, announced on his blog that he was leaving the PCA because of questions surrounding sola Scriptura and sola fide.  By all appearances Stellman, a graduate of Westminster Seminary (Escondido) and the author of a 2009 book arguing for a Two Kingdoms theology, is leaving Protestantism for Rome. This move has generated even more interest because Stellman recently pressed charges against Peter Leithart in the Pacific Northwest Presbytery for deviating from the Westminster Standards with the latter’s Federal Vision theology.

What should be said about such an ordeal? I’ll leave it to others to dissect the ins and outs of Leithart’s trial and Stellman’s prosecution. I’m not qualified to do so. I’ll also leave it to others, for the time being at least, to mount a defense of sola Scriptura and sola fide. Without knowing Jason, I’m not going to judge his motives or how he’s handled the process. It looks to me as if Jason kept his ordination vows by making his reservations known to the presbytery and resigning his position. He appears to be a man of honesty and integrity, even with mistaken theological conclusions.

Instead of weighing in on any of that, I simply want to remind of us two points that we can easily forget when a somewhat high profile evangelical converts (or seems about to convert) to Rome.

Continue reading at thegospelcoalition.org
 
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  • Robert De Leon

    How about a Marxist defending Capitalism, or a Capitalist defending Marxism?
    It seems to me that the Protestant author writes more about the "goodness" of Protestantism because he is a Protestant.
    Regarding Catholics leaving "the Tiber river" there is a saying: "A catholic ignorant, tomorrow's protestant"
    Catholic people that abandon their Faith never were catholic. As simple as that. Protestant people have a complete misunderstanding of Catholicism. That's why they always are criticizing something they don't really know. We Catholics believe in the Bible as a source of inspiration, the real Word of the Lord. A true catholic always is reading the Bible and learning from it. We practice our Catholicism according to our Dear Lord Jesus Christ's teachings.
    The opposite is something invented by Protestantism as a way to attack the only one Religion founded by Jesus Christ. A last thing: Protestantism came from Catholicism as a mistaken branch.
    Robert.

    • daves

      Religion bad, Jesus good.

      • Eric

        Is that an empirically verifiable statement? Or do you take it on faith?

        • daves

          :)

      • Despeville

        As long as you erase James 1:27 and ignore proper understanding of religion…

      • Robert De Leon

        Daves: If Jesus found His Church then from your point of view Jesus is bad. Is that correct or simple a contradiction from you?
        Robert.

        • Despeville

          No it is a blatant logical error from you and non sequitur.
          You have a problem with differentiation between facts and your assertions DeMelon.
          A typical side effect of brainwashing.

    • Despeville

      DeMelon,

      As usual bunch of nonsensical, general, useless, inane and fatuous hogwash not even really worthy to respond to…
      As to this:

      ' That's why they always are criticizing something they don't really know"

      Hahahahaha sure, none ever knows anything about your religion. It is a complete enigma, a secret gnosis right? Is that why every time I quote a damnable heresies from a plethora of your Romanist document you run for cover and hide???

      • Robert De Leon

        Desperate:
        Not worthy to respond and then you respond to it. How come?
        Robert.

        • Despeville

          There was one piece of your rubbish that needed to be exposed and that is your Gnostic assertion of your religion so secretive, so immensely complex, so incredibly sophisticated that none can understand it unless he or she eats "god" on Sundays and bows down to your old man in golden dress who supposedly is a vice president of "god"…Yikes!

          Nope DeMelon, Roman Catholicism is known to many as are its documents of which you yourself are largely ignorant of while projecting that ignorance on others for that is all you can do to keep your self-enchantment going.

          • Robert De Leon

            Desperate:
            Keep reading my comments. That's good for me… and you.
            Robert.

          • Despeville

            Hahhaahahaa an altar boy knows more about Roman Catholicism than you are and both of you have same misunderstanding as to what the Gospel is. Your ego is overgrown DeMelon and the only reason I respond to your religious rubbish is to warn others who might have less exposure and therefore discernment about the satanic nature of your deceiving religion of men. You have nothing to offer in terms of a factual discussion and in terms of integrity that is why you run into hiding every time you and your Babylonian religion is factually challenged.

    • Despeville

      "A last thing: Protestantism came from Catholicism as a mistaken branch. "

      Really so this rampant Roman Catholic idolatry below is the "righteous branch"???
      http://bit.ly/MizxUC

      But let us all fall for DeMelon lies and believe that they do not worship Roman demon of Mary. These poor and deceived people only kneel that direction…

      • Robert De Leon

        Wrong again.
        The Catholic Church is the Tree.
        Robert.

        • Despeville

          It might be but it definitively is not the Body of Christ .
          No more than your religious mannequin pope is its head as satan lied.

    • ned kelly

      that is the whole trouble with the catholic they don't use the bible to correct the false teachings . Simon the majiccan was the founder of the catholic church. Paul the apostle was the founder of christianity in rome .

      • Despeville

        Very interesting and makes sense.

    • Robert

      Does Catholicism still teach that it is the one true Church founded by Christ?

      Many think not, but there is no denying the church's official position: "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic." Pg. 214, #811

      Referring to the Catholic church, the Catechism pronounces: "In fact, in this one and only Church of God…" Pg. 216, #817
      "First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." Pg. 220, #830

      This "one true church" doctrine can be traced to one verse of Scripture, which, when compared with other Scriptures, is found not to teach this doctrine at all. When Jesus asked his disciples who He was, Peter responded:

      "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matthew 16:16"
      Then Jesus answered Peter:

      "… thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

      Catholicism contends that the Lord was referring to Peter as the rock, and has since built the entire Catholic religion upon that premise.
      But all other pertinent Scriptures declare that Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock, not Peter:

      "… for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4

      Jesus is not only the rock, He is the chief cornerstone of the church:

      "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20

      Back in the Old Testament, it was prophesied that Jesus, whom men rejected, would become the cornerstone of the church:

      "The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." Psalm 118:22

      Even Peter, allegedly the first pope, confesses that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the church:

      "…by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth… This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner." Acts 4:10-11

      "… the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner," 1 Peter 2:7

      According to Scriptures, Peter is NOT the rock:

      "For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?" Psalm 18:31

      "… I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock…" Deuteronomy 32:3-4

      "Truly my soul waiteth upon God… He only is my rock…" Psalm 62:1-2

      "But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge." Psalm 94:22

      • Winston

        Mostly Roman Catholic propaganda. Not Biblical truth. As a matter of fact the scripture verse you gave "… thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18 is erroneously interpreted by RC's. Jesus was speaking of himself as the rock, not Peter, because Peter is a "little pebble". Acts 17:11 search the scriptures and prove it to be true to yourself. The whole of Babylon will be destroyed.

        • wesley

          it does not say that the rock Jesus was referring to was even himself. the context of the passage states they were in the region of Caesarea Philippi. there in that region is a cave called "the Gates of Hell". just google up a picture of it and look for one that is a cave. there a rock at the mouth of the cave, so that could be the very rock he was referring to as he said Matthew 16:18. the whore of Babylon was the Jewish Temple system for the Sanhedrin was more scared of the wrath of Rome than the wrath of God. it was destroyed just one generation after Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

        • Robert

          You do realize that my point is that the catholic church is not the true church? I'm a born again Christian not a Roman Catholic.

      • wesley

        Robert there is nothing that tells us in that passage which rock he was referring to at that time. you are trying to cornerstone into being that rock with New Testament passages. the Old Testament passages are referring to a bedrock or foundational rock. context is key to interpreting scripture both in the passage of scripture but also historical. there in Matthew 16 Jesus is referring to some kind of foundational rock "on this rock I will build my church". was Jesus referring to the confession Peter had just given or the very rock they were standing on at that time in front of the literal "Gates of Hell".

    • Robert

      Who is the head of the church
      Despite all these Scriptures, Catholicism still claims that Peter was the rock and his successors are the head of the church:

      "The sole Church of Christ (is that) which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it… This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successors of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him." Pg. 215, #816

      But the Bible declares that Jesus Christ, not Peter or his successors, is the head of the church:

      "And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (Christ) might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

      "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him (Christ) to be the head over all things to the church," Ephesians 1:22

      "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Ephesians 4:15

      The biblical "church"

      When the Bible uses the words "the church," it always refers to all those who trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, not just to members of the Catholic church:

      "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord…" 1 Corinthians 1:2

      The Apostle Paul wrote:

      "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Ephesians 5:25

      Paul was not a Catholic, yet he knew that Christ loved him and died for him. Certainly, no one would dare say that Paul was not a Christian because he was not a Catholic.

      Would anyone suggest that God only loves Catholics?… or that He only died for Catholics? Such would be the case if the Catholic church was the only church.

      Paul also proclaimed:

      "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us…" Ephesians 5:2

      Can non-Catholics be Christians?

      As the "one true church," Catholicism claims the right to determine who is or is not a Christian:

      "All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." Pg 216, #818

      In other words, if you have not been baptized into the Catholic church, you are not a Christian. These are not my words, but the words of the official Catholic Catechism.

      But according to Scripture, it doesn't matter if the Catholic church has accepted you or not. If your faith is in Jesus Christ alone, then He has already accepted you:

      "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he (Jesus) hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6

      At this point, you must make a few decisions:

      Is Peter really the rock?
      The Catechism says he is, but God's Word says he is not.
      Is the Catholic church the one true church?
      The Catechism says yes, but the Bible says no.
      Do you really believe that all non-Catholics will burn in hell?
      Once again, the answers to each of these questions will be determined by which you choose to believe… the traditions of men, or God's Word.

      Jesus asked the Pharisees a question which all Roman Catholics should ponder:

      "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matthew 15:3

      • wesley

        the Catholics have real scriptural claim. many Protestants seem to forget the very next verse where Jesus give the disciples the keys to the church. the rock there in Matthew 16:18 could be Peter's confession or just the very rock they were standing on at the time. you say you are a born-again Christian that makes you catholic for there are no local churches in heaven and all churches are part of the catholic Church even Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostal, Orthodox and Roman Catholic. all you are doing is turning biblical claims into non-biblical claims. look at the conversation between Peter and Jesus in John 21. it certainly appears that Jesus is commissioning Peter to replace him as leader of the disciples. in Acts 1 back at the upper room Peter takes charge. in Acts 5 who speaks to Ananias and Sapphira, Peter again. in 1 Peter, Peter is writing to the Jewish believers from Rome. in John 21 also John tells us that Peter died through crucifixion only tradition states it was upside down. the New Testament never mentions that the new believers had said a prayer. it just said that they believed the apostles and were baptized.

    • spiritofthe20s

      You seem to forget, Bobby, that the Orthodox make the same claims.

  • Hurricane

    Amen Robert! Let's also be thankful that another sheep has returned to the true fold. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. Anyone else?

    May peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and your spirit.

    • lambsev11

      God's plan from before creation took place was to create a people for Himself. They would fall and He would have to redeem them. Jesus the eternal Son of God would be sent to do that work. Long story short: Man fell from God's grace and died. All mankind is destined for either heaven or hell. How does one get to heaven? By returning to God. God has made this promise to man, that whoever trusts His only begotten Son Jesus should not perish but have everlasting life.

      Notice: God does not require us to return to the church, a church or any church. But if we trust God's Son Jesus we will find ourselves defacto attached to the everlasting people of God's saving grace.

      Oh the pride man has over the works of his own hands, and how man loves to take credit for the works God has done. Humble sinner, return to God. Do not turn or return to the works of men (or women). Men and women cannot save you, they are all as diseased with sin as you are. Only a sinless God is able to forgive your sins and bear you from above. Seek Him to bear you from earth to heaven, and be born again in Him.

    • Despeville

      Hurricane,

      You are not a sheep but a goat imagining to be a sheep and your "true fold" is nothing else but satan lead and satan and his minions operated spiritual slaughter house where you are in line of your execution too.

      • Robert De Leon

        Desperate:
        Hurricane – and my self – understand that you use the most pure "Calvinist language", full of hatred. Is that all what you have in your heart? Hate?
        Robert.

        • Despeville

          Nope DeMelon, I speak factually about your damning religion of men while all you can do is speak about me :)
          That is a major difference DeMelon for I know what I am talking about while you have no slightest and first clue…
          Look at your hellish conjuration from Rome cursing the Gospel of Grace:

          "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

          Canon IX of the Sixth Session of the Roman Catholic Council in Trent

      • Hurricane

        What is this? I can hear the venom in these words. How can these words come from a christian heart?

        "And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." – Matthew 10:11

        I will pray fro you Despeville. Peace.

        • Despeville

          Here is how and by the same power and same logic and also from a Christian heart:

          But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
          For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

          (Galatians 1:8-10 ESV)

          And do not pray for me for you are an idolater.

  • msjallen

    Always ask the RC if they are doing anything else for salvation to see if they say they believe the plan of salvation as presented in the Bible. They may say they are going through a system of penance when they sin or some activity to get those sins forgiven by God. This reveals that they adhere to the RC system of penance and works by which they seek salvation. They were taught in catechism about Christ dying for them but are taught that they have to enter into the system of indulgences of the RCC. They believe in Purgatory – an intermediate state after death designed for expletory purification especially for sins capable for being forgiven. People light candles for them or have masses for them. This is ecclesiastical works.
    Not only RC but many protestant groups require works for salvation. They also teach that you can lose your salvation and must do the works of the church. They don’t believe that you can believe in Jesus Christ while sitting where you are in church – they say you have to come forward or raise your hand or be baptized into their church. (See Eph 2:8-9)

  • Stephen

    The average evangelical is a liberal to begin with. All they are proving is, first and foremost, they don't know the Bible (AV1611) as well as they make out to. Second, their actions make it clear they really don't care to. And last but not least, they sure don't know the history of the catholic church to want to belong to it.

    BTW: I am a former catholic who took the time to read the Bible and learn some of the real history of the vatican that didn't take the word of a preist at face valve and compared the Bible to what they teach. Today, I am a Independent Fundamental Baptist. And the Baptist didn't come out of the vatican even though that is what it teaches. Baptist existed 50-200 years before the Church of England existed. Therefore, Baptist are not Protestants.

    • Robert De Leon

      Stephen. Go back to the origin.
      Baptists are "deformers" as well, no matter if they existed 50-200 years before XVI Century. They are a mistaken branch from Catholic Church as well.
      Robert.

      • Despeville

        Yea go back to this satanic, demonic idolatry parading as Christianity as visible here with idol worshiping illegal pseudo sacrificial "priests" or Rome:

        PICTURE: http://bit.ly/Mt1BUK

        • Robert De Leon

          You are a real desperate man! Again, full of hate.
          I'll keep praying in your behalf.
          Robert.

          • Stephen

            Why is is if someone points out a fact about the great whore it's all done out of hate?

            "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4:16

          • Despeville

            DeMelon, you lie and lie and lie and lie some more all the while condemning yourself more and more thinking that God does not know and does not see. The only hate is in you and your religion that is why it killed 5 million Christians through centuries which data is from and in the book that speaks about 30 thousand "Protestant" denominations you love to hallucinate about in your hatred of the Gospel. Do not pray even if you would for you are praying to idols and you are a Babylonian idolater. Your prayers are meaningless and they condemn you some more.

          • Despeville
      • Stephen

        I stand by what I said. You are just taking the word of your preist at face valve and the books that they wrote.

    • wesley

      does you King James Bible contain the Apocrapha if not is not the the true King James Version 1611 but an updated edition with more modern spellings. the real King James 1611 was translated into Middle English with Ifaac, Iacob, Ioseph, borne, sonne, and words with similar spellings.

      • Stephen

        Yes, I realize that the vatican wanted its opinion in the KJB but God had His way and in the end it didn't haven't. Your point?

        • Stephen

          "…happen…"

        • wesley

          this bible was commissioned by a protestant king. this king believe in divine rights as king and Rex Lex which is the king is law. this bible was translated to make King James look good. the Apocrypha was only removed when they updated the language of the King James which happens to be about the time that other translations of the bible started appearing and all without the Apocrypha. you are talking about less a 150 years ago. the reason it was taken out was the Apocrypha was found only in the Greek and not in the Hebrew.

          • Stephen

            Apocrypha was removed because it didn't have anything to do with the Word of God, pure, plain and simple. When the vatican didn't have its on way, it threw a temper tantrum and went out of its way and started killing people who didn't agree with them. The pope even went out of his way making up lies claiming that the king was queer and people shouldn't trust the AV1611 because of it. In fact at one point, the vatican pass a State law prohibiting any catholic from reading, owning or having anything to do with it. And if you would put yourself out and actually look into this, you will find that this law is still on the books. For the moment, it's not being enforced but still on the books none the less.

            "IF" you are conviced I'm wrong, I challenge you to find a copy of the Apocrypha that was around in Christopher Columbus day and explain why does it refer to land verses sea as being 50/50?

          • Stephen

            The Word of God reads:

            "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalms 12:7-8

            "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

            "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are writtenin this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

            The Apocrypha was wrttem by the will of men of their on private interpretation. Proving it has nothing to with God's Word.

            "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6

          • Despeville

            And a word of fallen men says this:

            ""Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For BOTH of them, flowing out from the SAME divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age"

            Point 80, Catechism of Roman Catholic Church
            Official Vatican Site Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PL.HTM

          • Stephen

            You quote men and that proves what? That they have an opinion? And that some how is suppose to make what they believe as good as God on Word itself? You know a lot about the opinions of men but you clearly don't know the will nor the Word of God.

            "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:13

            "yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written," Romans 3:4

            When you are willing to really know the Word of God and are willing to get saved, please let me know! Thanks!

            "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

            "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Proverbs 3:5-7

          • Despeville

            You quote men and that proves what? That they have an opinion? "

            :) It proves that they are wrong… You are preaching to the choir here…

          • wesley

            i think you have been reading too many "Catholic conspiracies". the Catholics would not want to have read it not because the vatican "outlawed it" instead they saw it as a hatred of Catholics for England had gone through a civil war that pitted traditional Anglicans and Catholics with King Charles I against the Puritans and Parliament who outlawed Catholics from holding any government positions. as you can plainly see the British Catholics would not want anything that is perceived to promote hatred of Catholics. the pope had nothing to do with the civil war. as for the 50/50 they did not know anything the size of the earth and Americas were just a legend like the lost continent of Atlantis when the Apocrypha was originally written. they were already part of the Septuagint before the New Testament was written.

          • Despeville

            There is a vast anti Roman Catholic conspiracy of hateful, mean and ignorant Protestants that know nothing about the sweet "mysteries" of Roman religion where "sweet lord Jesus" sits in mama's Mary lap and she whispers him errands to do and that "sweet lord Jesus" just jumps and do errands for Mary each and every time. If you want to have a a good standing with mama Mary to get her leverage on "sweet lord Jesus" do what priests tell you and do not ask too many questions for mama Mary can overhear you and who is going to do favors for you then???

            Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot!!!

          • wesley

            the Bible is a poor way to get science as well. scripture was used to defend an earth centered universe.

    • http://www.sargee5.blogspot.com The Watchman

      Then how do you explain the huge number of RC's that voted for Barack Obama, the most liberal/Marxist/Progressive President ever to darken the door of the White House. It is Catholics who are mostly liberal. No true Christian whether he/she be Catholic or Protestant, would cast a vote for Barack Obama, simply because of his stance on abortion and late term abortion, and of course his new stance on same sex marriage.

      • wesley

        if you have notice you are talking about "Catholics" who deny the church teachings to start off with. there are reports that Obama will get more support from evangelicals this time around. some have said is could be double the 11% to 22% which is most of a quarter of the evangelicals. he will lose support among the Catholics for the younger Catholics are much stronger in their faith than the parents and grandparents.

        • http://www.sargee5.blogspot.com The Watchman

          I disagree on the basis as before stated.No one who is truly Christian would vote for Barack Obama.Having been raised Catholic and now serving the Lord in a Protestant church.I see very little Obama leaning individuals, actually the contrary is true.

      • Stephen

        So who stated that catholics are not liberals?

    • spiritofthe20s

      that is a big bunch of crapols, Stevie. The Baptists were founded in the 17th century in England and brought to America by roger Williams. Since you are and Independent Baptist, I presume you are also of the King James Only idiocy?

      • Stephen

        Sorry you feel that way little girl. But just because that is how you "feel" doesn't change the fact. I presume you are another liberal proclaiming what a man tells you to believe is more important than what the Bible teaches, idiocy?

    • wesley

      the translators of King James forced into Psalms 8:5 the word angels form Hebrew 2:7. These verses in the Common English Version which is one version are truly translated into the real meaning of the Hebrew and Greek.
      Psalms 8:5 You’ve made them only slightly less than divine, crowning them with glory and grandeur.
      Hebrew 2:7 For a while you made them lower than angels. You crowned the human beings with glory and honor.
      Psalms 8:5 uses Elohim which translates as God. Hebrews 2:7 uses angelos from which you can see we get angels.
      i do hope you have a Strong's Strong concordance compare the Hebrew numbers for angels, and you will find that here in Psalms is the only place that Elohim is translated for angels. add that to the fact that there are many verses in the King James that do not appear in the autograph copy for they appear much later manuscripts and not the earlier ones. Mark 16:9-20, John 7:53-8:11 were definitely added later.

      • Stephen

        Common English Version has as much to do with God's Word as a dog does.

  • Bob

    Why do your articles end abruptly? I've half a mind (most who know me stop there, lol) to unsubscribe since I almost never am satisfied with even the few articles I care to read because they are do obviously incomplete.

    • Admin

      Perhaps it is because they are incomplete. Every article includes a "Continue reading at…" link that will take you to the entire piece.

      • Despeville

        :0 :) :0

      • Bob

        Searched high and low. NO continue reading link EVER In the emails I receive on my iPhone. Ain't here, period.

      • Bob

        Whoops, after I refreshed, it popped up. I am absolutely sure it wasn't there before.

    • Steve03

      The best part of this site is the posters who can't decipher "continue reading at" and yet insist they — and only they — can "rightly divide the word of truth" . . .

      • lambsev11

        That is the best part? I don't understand how you could say that Steve03. What is the worst then?

  • Hurricane

    Imagine that you were Jesus. You're starting your church to spread the gospel to every human being of ALL nations, races, and history of time. You pick twelve apostles. You give specific instructions and commandments. Then one of the men betray you, another denies he knows you THREE times! Others run away when the going gets tough. These are the guys YOU hand picked! But, you've still got a mission and got to work with what you've got. You literally breath power into them and promise to be with them until the end of time. Then you ascend into heaven and send the Holy Spirit to guide them. How will these men accomplish this mission for you? Who will continue the mission after the original men are dead? How will they transfer the power and the knowledge to keep your message pure? What should they do to those that try to change it? Since you had such a rocky start, would you leave them if they screw it up themselves? You did promise to be with them until the end of time. Would you just start over with new people? Or maybe just let everyone figure it out for themselves on their own?

    If you did stay and guide them, what would this church look like 2,012 years later? It would be one holy, catholic and apostolic. Amen.

    • Vladimir

      But a falling away must occur before He returns again. Where is that in your thoughtful story?

      • Despeville

        Yes and you both, i.e. Hurricane and you are fallen, deceived and being led to a slaughter.

    • Despeville

      What a bunch of useless assertions Hurricane. This only further underscores how deeply lost you are in your babylonian religiosity dressed up with Christian names and terms. We do not have to "imagine" anything we hace a sure Word of God that stands and will stand despite many and ample efforts of your Romanism to corrupt and fence in that Word.

      It is absolutely nauseating reading your mumbling about hypothetical dilemmas of the Eternal Son of God Lord of Glory Jesus Christ as if he was a stressed out, unsure, unknowing,limited and leaping into unknown creature and creature only for God would not and does not fit into this warped picture you have painted in your religiosity. In the end what you have asserted in your lost mind is not Biblical Jesus because your religion is largely alien to the Bible and with that very similar to Mormonism which also uses biblical names and terms yet pouring into them completely extra biblical meanings.

    • Despeville

      "..How will these men accomplish this mission for you? Who will continue the mission after the original men are dead? How will they transfer the power and the knowledge to keep your message pure? What should they do to those that try to change it? Since you had such a rocky start, would you leave them if they screw it up themselves? You did promise to be with them until the end of time. Would you just start over with new people? Or maybe just let everyone figure it out for themselves on their own? …"

      Hahahhhahahahhahahahahahahahaha Poor "jesus" with this much uncertainty and anxiety no wonder he had leap into mama Mary's lap and commission a bunch highly paid consultants in dresses to take over and run "his church" for him…. :) Now if anyone wondered why I state on the authority of God's word that you are a goat being led to a slaughter house then he or she should not now if they truly know the real Jesus the Eternal Lord of Glory.

  • Hurricane

    Yes, but falling away from what? From His one, holy catholic and apostolic church. Too many people persecute the church based on what they think it is, NOT what it actually is.

    Please, brothers and sisters, read good catholic apologetics before deciding to fall away. I want all to come home, especially my brother Despeville. Home is where the fullness of the faith is. All christians have a some of the truth, but the catholic church has ALL of it. It has to, because HE started it! Amen.

    • Despeville

      A. I am not "your" brother unless you repent from your damnable religiosity and fall before the real Jesus and His Gospel.

      B. Falling away from the Gospel that is Christ's and not pope's… Are you that lazy or you are despising the word that much? It is right there and before what I quoted:

      "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ."

      (Galatians 1:6-7 ESV)

      C. :) Do not kid yourself with your assertion of a special "gnosis" I have been a RC and have RC "priests" in my family and I know more about your religion and its teaching as in its documents and Roman practices as I have travelled worldwide that you do and I can take you to the test on it any time but you will not have it and you know it too :)

    • Despeville
  • msjallen

    The RCC church became secular with power politics and with anything but the Word of God. This is why we had the Dark Ages; no Bible Doctrine. Denominations do the same when they focus on self. Churches are taught to “meet the needs of the congregation”; they mean anything but Bible Doctrine. Our needs are learning about Jesus Christ and all else will fall in place. The “church” is not a denomination or religion; it is all those who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. The Bible is our guide to live the spiritual way of life; not a creed or rituals or mere man who are all fallible.

    • wesley

      the Dark Ages result from a falling literacy rate caused by invading the Germanic tribes of norther Europe. they were invading mostly because their lands were being invaded eastern Asians called the Huns with their Attila. then when you add the invaders from the south the Moores who were Muslim to go with people who wanted someone else to fight the invaders for them you have problems. Europe and especially America is headed for another Dark Age for their complacency while waiting for Christ to return. as for the Dark Ages having no Biblical doctrine is well off base for the had Biblical doctrine much stronger than we have today which is really sad for they worked hard to rid the continent of heresies several of which had found new homes after the Reformation. during the middle ages people recited the creeds and chanted songs full of Bible doctrine. Guttenburg's printing press is not even 550 year old yet. they learned scripture and doctrine by memorization through the means of word of mouth. the main reason for the ignorance of doctrine at the time of the reformation was the average person could not understand Latin except for the few Latin cognates that are found in their language. America is becoming a nation of heretics with many churches being lead by ministers with poor theology. at college my theology professor said that there has been a steady decline theology of those who attend the school to become minsters. for most the first half of the semester we were being told we were heretics in a loving way for we did not realize that we were mostly inadvertently taught heresy. oh if we would recite the creed in our churches today more people would be able to spot heresies masked as truth.

  • Hurricane

    msjallen you are wrong. Please, read the catholic response to these lies before you form your opinion. Your salvation may depend on it. Jesus said many will come in His name, but there is still ONLY one church. It is visible like a shining city. I'm so tired of hearing about chained bibles and praying to statues and worshiping Mary. ALL lies.

    He is coming and time is running out. Please, I beg you all, seek and you will find. He is standing at the door, at the very gate! Do not delay, find the truth. Google, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, Jeff Cavins.

    There is a terrific book called, "Because God is Real" by Dr. Peter Kreeft. Kreeft explains everything very clearly and biblically. Buy it, borrow it or check it out from the library. Just read it. You'll be informed when you do.

    Peace be with you all.

    • wesley

      they do not realized that the chained Bible were in the Anglican Church better known as the Church of England. many use the King James Version only and do not realize it was commissioned by a king who wanted to protect his Rex Lex (king is law) or divine right as king status.

    • msjallen

      Hurricane, I only take the Word of God as truth; not what people write what they want us to believe. Almost every dogma and practice of the Roman Catholic faith is starkly opposed to the biblical Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the point of blasphemy against His glorious finished work of salvation. I have known too many Catholics who have come to know the truth of the Word of God and left that heresy than to believe those who try to convince me with lies. If you want to know the truth do not use the KJV or the Catholic bible of false teachings but the translation closest to the original languages: NASB. I doubt that too many Catholics know Jesus Christ as their savior.

      • wesley

        Just read the portion of The Nicene Creed that deals with Jesus Christ: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
        if you read the article later talks about naming prominent Catholics and how hard it is. it cannot really be done without mentioning the reformers from the Reformation period itself. many of them that "left that heresy" did not believe what the Nicene creed said in the first place and still possibly deny much of it still.

    • Despeville

      "…and praying to statues and worshiping Mary. ALL lies. "

      Are they? :) —–> http://bit.ly/MkYqz1

      'Do not delay, find the truth. Google, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, Jeff Cavins."

      We know their voice and yours too: http://bit.ly/MjwHP6

      "…You'll be informed when you do. "

      Hahahhaaha too bad you are not goatie.

  • ORB

    Roman Catholics can't help it! The teaching Magisterium, Tradition, and of course the "pope" always trump the Word of God, Incarnate and written!

  • Robert

    All the Christian cults, world religions to include Islam and other cults can be traced back to Rome. The holocaust, Marxism and even theistic evolution can also be traced back to Catholism. I recommend 3 books, "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, "Babylon Religion" by David Daniels and last but not least "A Woman Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt.
    I was. Roman Catholic, baptized as a baby, received holy communion and confirmed. I went to religious instruction every Wednesday also at the catholic church. When I became a man I opened the Holy Bible and began to read the New Testament and realized it all came down to Romans 10:9-10 and 1Timothy 2:5. Sorry folks Mary is not "co-redemptress."
    If you're bold enough look at http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html now notice there's no "t" at the end of holocaus on the site reformation . org / holocaus . html. I also read pro-catholic writings can't remember any of the names because it was a long time ago, but when compared to the Bible I learned that Catholism, if followed to the T will ensure eternal damnation. I write this from the heart.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1486315530 Arneson Tara

    I'm so tired of people thinking they know everything about the Catholic church. I don't care if you were raised in one, not all churches are created equal. There is salvation in all churches, even the Catholic church. Until you know everything, stop picking on the Catholics. We are not all bad, we don't worship statues. We like them we are a visual religion, don't like them, great! stay out of the church. We don't worship Mary, we honor her and if that is worshiping, then stop worshiping your mother. Catholics do not blindly follow everything the pope says, maybe some do, but there are always going to be people in the world who want someone else to think for them, you can find them in every religion. Most Catholics are educated and read their Bible. The church encourages people to think for them selves.