Mormons using Facebook to increase political outreach

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have begun leveraging their evangelizing networks through smartphone apps to help draw support for Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign. By employing specialized apps like LDS Tools to gather phone numbers and addresses of Mormon church members, political supporters can cross-check the contact info with voter registration data to contact other Romney backers.

However, Mormon church rules forbid the use of LDS resources for political purposes. Dave Isbell, a Nevada Mormon, tells CNN, the apps are being used despite official church policy.

“The church makes it really easy for you to get a hold of anyone in your ward,” Isbell says. “If you are a Romney supporter in the church, you have an opportunity to talk to everyone in your ward that already has a relationship of trust with you.”

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bighoss

The Mormon Facebook site (www.facebook.com/Mormon) referenced in the article is good for a lot of laughs. It is chock full of the standard Mormon propaganda lines. It includes a selective chronology of the history of the cult, but does not include any of the negative stuff, such as the infamous "Mountain Meadows Massacre" in which Mormons deceived and murdered scores of innocent pioneers nor does it include information on the more bizarre and blasphemous Mormon doctrines on the nature of God and Christ and the zany notion that human males can "progress" to become gods like the God Himself. With regard to the LDS decision, after many years of bigotry, to allow blacks to have the priesthood, the explanation says only this: "Revelation that Priesthood would be given to all worthy males announced." There is no mention of what that "revelation" was all about, namely that it ended the longstanding practice of DENYING the priesthood to blacks. The brief biography of Jesus of course says nothing about Mormonism's claim that he was conceived by the union of Mary and a flesh and bones God in the same sexual manner in which others are conceived. In short–a shrewdly edited puff piece on Mormonism.
- mesamanp47
  
  Hoss, it's time to jab you in the rump with a sharp stick again. The points you make are slanted to make your appeal more enticing, and to the non-Mormon you might be making some points. But your assumptions are mostly reckless, irresponsible rants aimed at a people you seem to know nothing about.The biased readings you have perused have made you appear very naive and shallow and that may satisfy your bigotry. Now, to be my old curmudgeon-self, go whinny in the pasture and we'll call you when the oats are ready.
  - HuckleBilly
    
    You attack bighoss' assertions but you don't disprove anything he said. Simply providing an ad hominem, personal assault on his character actually says more about you than him.
    - mesamanp47
      
      If I thought it would serve any worthwhile purpose to engage in a factual discussion with the "hoss" or you, a huckleberry, I would certainly jump in with both feet. However, I have learned that when people like you suffer hardening of the attitudes it would be as effective as flatulating in the wind. Your assertions are as useless as your signature.
      - bighoss
        
        In an earlier incarnation, when you were a college professor, were you then so casually and cavalierly dismissive of opposing views? Did you, in your classroom persona, try to tamp off the arguments of those who disagreed with you by accusing them of having "hardening of the attitudes"? Is that how you dealt with your students and your fellow academics when they did not agree with you? If so, then your performance flew in the face of that which is commendable and noble insofar as the philosophy of higher education is concerned. The cheap shots and the easy outs do not distinguish professorships or forum discussants. Come on out and put up the GOODS, mesaman!
      - mesamanp47
        
        As a retired university professor I no longer have to supply apologies, excuses, or whimpers for what I believe. Your attempts to belittle me and my career is working much like a "Fleet Kit" would when preparing for a colonoscopy, it doesn't require an explanation, I hope. I stand for what I believe and when you are others like you choose to show your ignorance and vile, then I forget the rigors of scientific method and choose sarcasm. You deserve better when you act civil, you receive the sharpness of my tongue when you show timorous behavior and resort to shaming and criticizing. I now let this rest, you do the same.
      - bighoss
        
        You do well to "let it rest" since on your side of the issue it has been in such a feeble and torpid condition as not to have had any substance in this discussion. If I were as incapable of defending my faith as you are, I would be happy to "let it rest". I don't look for "apologies, excuses, or whimpers" as being of any real polemical utility, so if those are all you would have to offer, it is indeed best that you "let it rest."
      - mesamanp47
        
        You really must address your oral diarrhea, you seem to be somewhat narcissistic and these two traits make for a truly insipid personality.
      - DWoodPC
        
        we know your "proof" and you will never win this argument. God is in charge, not you or the likes of you
      - Glen S
        
        We always must be ready to give explanation for what we believe. This is true from birth till death.
      - mesaman
        
        To both your replies I point to your presumptiveness in creating the rules. Your rules are your rules only, and do not apply to anyone else unless they choose to accept them. I presume, as well, that you were never a mentor in academia and I would wonder if you were ever a sponsor of civility. I stand for what I feel compelled to support. If you don't like it, tough.
      - Glen S
        
        So you are an educated fool? Great, just what we needed. Never mind you don't have any clue how to act civil and that society dictates the rules.
      - Glen S
        
        So you only throw insults? When in academia do we withhold evidence supporting a contrary point of view just because we believe it will fall of deaf ears?
        
        It is far more likely that you just want to "mix it up" a bit.
    - DWoodPC
      
      how about another witness Huck… Mesaman47 is right on,…. how long have you known bighoss?
    - DWoodPC
      
      You will see Huck… that bighoss's religion – the only one of its kind – begins without a miracle. Logical! Astounding!
  - bighoss
    
    mesaman, your response is all too typical of those from other defenders of Mormonism. You make no effort whatsoever to discredit the assertions I have made, Instead, you default to insult combined with a generalized complaint that I have relied on biased anti-Mormon sources and that I don't really know anything about Mormonism.
    
    This forum, mesaman, is replete with information I have provided from documented official sources from within the Mormon Church. It is also replete with the impotent, vague, non-substantive kind of drivel you and other hapless, polemically-incompetent Mormons have submitted in vain and pitiful attempts to discredit what I have posted. I have to wonder just when any of you will actually address the information I have cited in so many places on this forum by actually submitting some kind of counter-argument instead of the predictable invective and insult. I ain't holding my breath on that, though.
    
    Check out, for example, the information I provided for "Latter day Saint" below . Read what I have posted from the statements of Mormon Presidents concerning blacks and the priesthood and see what you kind of substance you can post in response.
    - DWoodPC
      
      bighoss the monarchist now plays the race card … again. Do you belong to Reverend Wright's church? I know you support Owebama and hate Republicans. You said it quite plainly just a few days ago. Why don't you re-provide it for all to see bighoss so people can see the proof? And why I voted thumbs up for mesaman47 !
      - bighoss
        
        "Voting" for mesaman or for anyone on either side of an issue is a shabby and impotent way to address the issue. Your participation in the discussion is every bit as vapid and non-substantive as mesaman47. When wuill any Mormon apologist actually confront the issues being described and addressed? It is beginning to look like NEVER!
      - DWoodPC
        
        you haven't addressed the issues as a matter of fact
      - bighoss
        
        As if your saying that makes it so? You constantly decline to respond to my posts with any kind of substance and you have the nerve to accuse ME of not addressing the issues. The trouble for you is that I have pointedly addressed many issues of Mormon doctrine in detail and with particularity, and have cited official Mormon sources to substantiate what I have written. You and the other feeble Mormon apologists on here won't deal honestly with what I have posted, so you resort to nonsense ASSertions like the one you made above.
- Taquoshi
  
  Oddly enough, hoss, I was invited to attend an informational meeting with Mormons to ask church members any questions that came to mind. I did go and was warmly welcomed. Their premise was that there were many rumors flying around about the Latter Day Saints that were based on major misconceptions.
  
  My first question was about the political aspect. They were consistent with what I had previously heard about not being involved in politics. I would respectfully remind you that the same type of concerns and questions were raised when JFK was on the ballot.
  
  Secondly, the church members on the Q&A board were from many different backgrounds and races. I've also met another church member who happens to be black and while she was telling me why she left the "holiness" movement to join the LDS, she said that she had experienced less prejudice in the LDS than she had at her former church, which I know for a fact wasn't Anglo-Saxon.
  
  Am I in favor of Mitt Romney? I have reservations, strong ones. Particularly since he was governor in Mass. when Romenycare was introduced and there is a friend of mine who lives there. The last five years have been a struggle trying to prove to the State that she can't afford private health insurance.
  
  However, having said that, I am much more comfortable with Romney in the White House than the current occupant. Jimmy Carter, who was until recently, was ranked as the "worst" U.S. President by many, is an Evangelical Christian. He has now moved up a notch. I imagine you can figure out who has the lowest spot. (P.S. – it isn't Bush or W.)
  
  You don't have to like Romney. You don't have to vote for Romney. But I would be extremely cautious about assuming that a vote for Romney would be a vote for the Mormon Church.
  - bighoss
    
    I have to wonder what, if any, questions you might have posed to those friendly Mormons concerning their more bizarre doctrines, such as God having once been a man; human progression to godhood; the alleged physical, sexual, fleshly union of God and Mary; and the alleged nature of Jesus as a created being. Those things are NOT "rumors floating around." They are actual doctrines of that cult. Did you question those friendly Mormons on any of these issues and, if so, did their responses satisfy you?
    - Taquoshi
      
      Actually, I have asked about the "bizarre" doctrines that I know are not rumors in private conversations with some Mormons who are personal friends. Am I satisfied with their answers? No. Otherwise I would actually be a Mormon. I don't agree with their doctrines just the same as I don't agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Roman Catholics. Knowing what the tenants and doctrines of someone else's faith does not equate to endorsement or agreement.
- Esteban Cafe
  
  Sir, please recall that Jesus withheld not just the Priesthood but church membership and even teaching of the Gospel to Gentiles while He on the earth. It was only after Peter's "Unclean" vision that the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles. We should be very careful in our condemnation.
  
  And, since you brought this up, allow me to direct you to the counsel of Gamaliel, a Pharisee in Acts 5 (full quote:35-39):
  38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
  39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
  
  So, as you play the part of a Pharisee, go ahead and beat these Mormons but be sure to let them go. If they are not of God, it will end poorly for them; if they are of God, it will end poorly for you…We Evangelicals have not answered the question of HOW "By their fruits shall ye know them" applies to Mormons. I think we should back off as there is much we neither know nor understand. Let us tread carefully here.
  - Vladimir
    
    Of course, bighoss didn't reply.
    - DWoodPC
      
      Hi Vlad. Thanks for taking on Big Hoss … as a man I want to leave him you although I know he is all our "problem" I just have a life to live and can't take him on by myself … again thanks so much for all you do… d : )
- Trisha Holmeide
  
  And, Bighoss, may I ask in what particular "Christian" denomination you are affiliated? Since all Protestant (Pro-testing) faiths were and are Pro-testing the Catholic faith and it's teachings in one way or another, and the Catholic Church can trace it's beginnings back to Peter (who was called by Christ to be an Apostle)–by what authority do you speak? In-other-words, who chose you as speaker and deliminator for which beliefs are true or which are false? Are you saying, as Joseph Smith did, you were called of God to bring God's truth into the light, or that you are simply preaching the gospel of Bighoss? Makes a difference you know.
- Dionesius3
  
  Mormonism is a cult. Mormons will not defend the stupid belief they hold because they can't think. And they won't address the truth of their checkered past because they have been brain washed to believe their church has never done anything wrong.
- Dionesius3
  
  The LDS church is the biggest bunch of liars and thieves in the world today.
  
  They teach about a false god they call "heavenly father" and his equally false son lucifer and Jesus. They teach that wearing "g" or godly underwear is demanded by their false god. They teach that when you die there will be a chance for you to accept the god spell again if you don't get it right in this life.
  
  They teach that you can become god of your own planet and have eternal sex with your wife or wives and populate your new planet with the "spirit children" of your unions.
  
  They teach that their God has a body of flesh and blood, and that is in direct contradiction to the Bible and ALL OF CHURCH HISTORY!!!
  
  They teach that if you become a "good Mormon" and get "sealed" in their so called temple that your marriage will last for all eternity and you can become god and goddess of your own planet.
  And this special temple ceremony involves getting nearly naked and letting the bishops and elders rub your body and genitals with oil while saying "sacred" words. At the end you learn the secret handshake which is a cheap copy of freemasonry.
  
  Lastly, they brain-wash and use mind control techniques all the time with their members to keep them in line and submissive to the church. They force All to pay tithes and intimidate and threaten all who do not follow the hundred of thousands of rules that their false god requires.
  
  All in all it is a miracle that most Mormons are as nice as they are, but they have been so conditioned by their church that they can hardly do otherwise.
  
  I feel sorry for anyone trapped in this false man made religion.
  - Xman3
    
    Dionesius3, I am not a Mormon, but the Mormon and denomination bashing at this site is over-the-top anit-Christian and makes me wonder if the likes of those will ever make it to heaven. May I assume that you will be supporting and voting for the radical sleeper Muslim, lying moron Obummer? Anyone who votes for Obummer can't be a Christian.
    
    In 2012, don't believe the media. If one votes for a Democrat (or Rino) at any level of Government – Federal, State or Local, that person may be an idiot.
    Vote for the MOST Constitutional, Conservative, American Values and Christian Candidate in all elections.
    - Dionesius3
      
      You know what they say about ASSuming…
      
      I will not vote for either one of them, and no that is not the same as voting for OBUMMER. I live in a majority Republican state which will vote for Rumney in mass. In case you don't know presidents are not elected by popular vote they are elected by the Electorial College. Which means if you live in a red state as I do it makes no difference whatsoever who I vote for because all the electors from my state will go to Rumney. I could write-in your name and it would make absolutely no difference one way or the other.
      
      And besides that I would not vote for a Mormon under ANY circumstance, they are brain washed and under the control of their church if they are faithful, and if they are not faithful and not under the control of their chosen church then they are hypocritical. Either one would disqualify them from getting my vote.
      
      And OBUMMER did not get my vote either, he is both a mooslam and not qualified to be the president because his parents were not both natural born citizens of this country.
      
      A vote for the lessor of two evils argument is exactly why our nation is in the mess we are in today.
      I am all for letting the fools who vote for EITHER of the candidates get exactly what they deserve.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, you are allowing the fools who vote decide. You by not voting are even more foolish. There will be other issues besides the election of the president on the ballot.
      - Dionesius3
        
        There you go ASSuming…
        
        I didn't say I was not voting at all, I said I was not voting for either of the lying fools running for president.
        
        Dixon is such a moron that he thinks his vote for president makes any difference whatsoever.
        
        I don't know what state you live in, but rest assured your vote will likely mean nothing.
        
        Judging by some of your posts here it seems you should be a libertarian but your likely not due to a lack of fortitude and manhood.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        If you consider being a man to involve making up information, then you would be correct.
      - Dionesius3
        
        You should know, you make up stuff all the time!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Now that is humorous. I have supporting facts for everything I post. You merely shovel out more of your delusional ramblings.
      - DWoodPC
        
        What did you say about Jeff, Dionesius3!? You should stop calling yourself a Christian. You are nowhere anything at all Christian. Christ would never approve of the way you treat people. You are more like satan and I think that more everyday. You are really pushing satan's agenda! Is there nothing on this Earth that you are thankful for!? If so, it doesn't show AT ALL.
      - Dionesius3
        
        I am not required to answer to you dimwit. Nor am I required to be civil to fools, lunatics, or morons. And you should know about satans agenda, you have been on it ever since you joined the moron mormon church.
        
        As to what I am thankful for, you are neither a friend, nor a neighbor, so why should I share anything with a swine like yourself?
        
        There is a verse in the Bible about the issue, but your know so little of the Bible you likely don't know the passage.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        You are also not capable of providing an intelligent answer, which is your bigger problem.
      - Reality check
        
        Well, Dion…. there goes a vote for Obama. You might as well admit that your and others like you, out of proportioned 'hatred' for Mormons like you will cost this country its freedoms… I thank you, and my grandchildren thank you.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Well Reality, there goes another moron who doesn't know how to read nor how presidents are elected in our nation.
        
        As I said above, moron, I live in a state that will vote enmass for Rumny and thus all the Electorial votes from my state will go to Rumney. And thus he will win my state. It would make no difference if I voted for you, it would change NOTHING!!!
        
        Your ignorant moron Mormons need to learn about the Electorial college. It is how all presidents have been elected. The popular vote means NOTHING!!!
        
        But beyond that point I would not vote for a moron Mormon for ANY OFFICE AT ANY LEVEL EVER!!!
        
        Just like I wouldn't vote for a mooslam for ANY OFFICE AT ANY LEVEL EVER!!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        We are appreciative that you leave the voting to people who are actually able to think rationally on the topic.
      - Discouraged
        
        lol … Amen, JW Amen
  - DWoodPC
    
    Dionesius3: Will you tell me what particular doctrine you think is indeed the true one, please? dwood
    - Dionesius3
      
      Orthodox Christianity.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Thank you. I will look it up to see if I can understand your passion for it better.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Hi Dion:I found all these: Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Romanian, Serbian, Russian, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria Orthodox Churches, Armenian Apostolic Church, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac, Western Rite Orthodoxy listed … are these all one and the same. Please tell me which one is yours, I don't have time to write the dissertation. (lol) there are so many different ones. dwood
      - Dionesius3
        
        I did not say I was an Orthodox Christian, I said I believe in orthodox Christianity. Orthodox has two meanings, one is the Orthodox Christian denominations, the other is the normal meaning of the word orthodox which simply means "normal" or regular, or simple.
        
        A dictionary is a useful tool at times.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Oh, I see what you mean. I did not study the Bible, it was not in fact used at all in the Catholic Church where I grew up. I imagine your favorite book is the Holy Bible? What version do you use? Did you study the Greek and Hebrew? Is your vocation in the priesthood?
      - Dionesius3
        
        I am aware that you have never studied the Bible. I am not hung up on any particular translation. I like the NASB, AND KJV. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes I have studied both Greek and Hebrew and I am very much able to translate from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures. And for the tenth time, I am not a priest, nor a pastor. I earn my living working.
      - DWoodPC
        
        I have not been nearly as devoted to the scripture as you are. I do work at it daily though. : )
        
        Is it true that no scripture original text exist on the actual life of Christ written when He was alive?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Of course it it true.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        You have the the originals from when Joe first interpreted the Book of Mormon?
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        I thought the originals were locked up in your wine cellar Jeff. Last I heard anyway.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        As usual, more insipid comments from the king of the Luddites.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Jeff is really precise, Joe. I hope you looked it up what he is calling you. I would ponder that one. In fact I am checking myself to make sue that I don't bear any of those traits!
        
        It googles easily.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Nope.
      - DWoodPC
        
        This response is not definitive enough for me Dionesius3. You will have to give me some references to check out that histories of 0 AD to 32 AD up to the end of the generation of people who knew Christ and did record the events of His we know so well, and with his name in them. I am told there is no such history. This is a shock to me. I though all these things were referenced back to original docs from the period. I have sources of history also. I will check it out and we can compare notes.
      - Dionesius3
        
        You have diddly squat!! There is no historic moron Mormon documents. There is not one single piece of archeological evidence to confirm one single word of your moron Mormon trash.
        
        You have a greater chance of finding the holy grail than you do of finding one shred of evidence for you dufus "heavenly father".
        
        By the way, how often does heavenly father have sex with heavenly mother?
      - DWoodPC
        
        Stop the insanity for a moment and answer a question.
        
        Why do you feel the need to poke your nose into anyone's private life whoever or whatever they are? Not necessary to answer that. Just don't do it again.
        
        I asked the question: Have you access to the history of the period 1BC to 32AD directly documenting Christ's life, by someone who knew him?
      - Dionesius3
        
        Don't do what? Ask about your false gods sexual appetites???
        
        Surely they teach you about these things in your cult meetings.
        
        Oh, wait I get it this is one of those forbidden subjects in your cult.
        
        You can't talk about it to us apostate Christians, right???
        
        And yet you wish to lie and tell the world that moron Mormons are Christians????
        
        Talk about conflicted and convoluted logic, you really need a good therapist there DuhWoo.
      - Vladimir
        
        Your rants against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Dionesius3, reveal a lot about you personally. For instance, you have a lot of hangups about sex. You think it is something dirty, unbecoming, shocking, unclean, smelly and beneath someone of righteousness. Well, get over it, because your God ordained it as the means for procreation and who are you to second guess Him?
        
        You have great problems with your father. The thought of such a relationship with your God is repulsive to you. Well, get over it, because your God describes himself in terms of His relationship with you, Father to son.
        
        You have a lot of personal hangups and your reviling of the church borders on the pathetic. You act like a small child so angry with something he cannot understand that he strikes out in utter frustration trying to hurt but only exposing his immaturity and ignorance.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Thank God for your interjection, Vlad!
      - Dionesius3
        
        I don't have any hang ups about sex, and no it's not dirty, that must be you since you won't talk about your god having sex with his wife.
        
        Let's let the readers of this thread decide whose arguments stand the test of maturity.
        I am not frustrated in the least, I love showing how silly and foolish your moron Mormon faith is.
        
        And still you offer no defense, I have shown over and over how ridiculous your church is and the best answer your can offer is this pablum???
        
        What a joke you and your faith is,
        
        But please keep running your silly mouth so I can publish more of the truth about your stupid faith.
      - DWoodPC
        
        I know something really serious happened between you and the mormon missionaries. I know how you feel, so please don't tell me again. I am just trying to understand, okay?
      - Dionesius3
        
        Nothing bad has ever happened between myself and any Mormon missionaries. I have been black listed by the local Mormon stake because I have taught the truth to so many missionaries. They tell the missionaries when they arrive in my community what my name is, where I live, and that they should never vist or engage me in conversation.
        
        I guess I am dangerous according to the local stake.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        "Mormon missionaries"–what a joke Dion! I will possibly begin to believe these guys are "missionaries" when they go to Kabul to work as "missionaries" or perhaps to Baghdad or some other such choice location. It seems to me, simply by observation, that these "missionaries" end up in such exotic locations like the French Riviera, Hawaii, Alaska, Moscow (I think) and other vacation destinations. I am sure it is a trying experience.
      - DWoodPC
        
        They do go to non-vacation destinations, but they don't go to war zones unless they all in the military and are technically Chaplins. I know a lot of people who are Chaplins. Have you ever thought to get a masters in divinity and apply to the military to become one.
        
        Chaplins travel surrounded by a group of guards with guns, since a chaplin does not carry a gun. One can be a chaplin in the reserves and spend a lot of time with the wounded in VA hospitals around the country. One chaplin I know in the reserves has recent;ly visited Texas, Kansas, South Carolina, all on weekends.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        The word is "Chaplain" wouldbephd. I know quite a bit about them. Thanks though.
        Yes, a visit to South Carolina on some weekend would be nice. But the place is already full of Mormon "missionaries."
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Not surprisingly, you know nothing about this issue as well.
        
        In the 1960s and 1970s, expatriate Latter-day Saints began arriving to the Middle East in appreciable numbers. Many North American and European members were businessmen and contractors who worked for companies that extracted the region's vast oil and natural gas reserves. In 1983, the Church organized its first stake in the region – the Arabian Peninsula Stake – to service the hundreds of active members living in the Gulf States. Towards the end of the twentieth century, increasing numbers of Filipino and Southeast Asian Latter-day Saints moved to the Middle East to work in industry and services. In the 1980s and 1990s, the bulk of active LDS membership appeared to reside in Saudi Arabia but in the 2000s active membership became more balanced between Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Qatar. The first LDS congregation in Kuwait appeared to begin operating sometime in the 1980s or early 1990s whereas the first congregation in Oman likely began meeting in the 1990s. By the late 2000s, the Manama Bahrain Stake – renamed from the Arabian Peninsula Stake – had 16 units. In 2011, the Church relocated the headquarters for the stake to the United Arab Emirates and renamed the stake the Abu Dhabi Stake. At the same time, the Church also created a district based in Bahrain called the Manama Bahrain District. At present, the Abu Dhabi Stake services Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates whereas the Manama Bahrain District services Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.
        
        The Church has generally experienced stagnant membership and congregational growth in North Africa, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria for the past several decades. The Church once maintained a presence in Iran between the 1950s and late 1970s and even operated a mission based in Tehran from 1975 to 1979 until the Iranian Revolution but has since had no known presence. In the 2000s and early 2010s, the United States-led invasion and occupation of Iraq resulted in the establishment of an LDS presence among military personnel on military installations in many areas of Iraq. However, by early 2012 the Church closed the Baghdad Iraq Military District following the withdrawal of United States military personnel and continued to operate only one branch based in Baghdad.
        
        Successes
        
        The Church has achieved strong, stable growth in the Gulf States notwithstanding the transient nature of most members living in the region and the somewhat artificial structure of church administration to service only foreigners. A stake has functioned for nearly 30 years notwithstanding the high turnover rate inherent in migrant worker and expatriate populations. To operate stakes require over 100 active Melchizedek Priesthood holders and scores of dedicated members to fill leadership for both individual congregations and for the stake itself. The continued operation of a stake for such a long period of time suggests that the Church has achieved self reliance in filling leadership and meeting local ecclesiastical demands with little or no assistance from international church leadership and missionary manpower. The functioning of the stake has adapted to demographic shifts in LDS membership as indicated by the relocation of the stake from Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to the United Arab Emirates. To reduce the administrative burden on local leaders, the Church split the stake to form a district to service members in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. In 2010, the Church reported that membership increased from 786 to 906 just in the United Arab Emirates.
        
        There is an LDS presence in almost every country in the Middle East. In early 2012, the only countries in the region without independent congregations operating were Iran, Palestine, and Yemen although it is likely that a small group met in members' homes for church services in Palestine and Yemen. In North Africa, it is unclear whether there is a permanent LDS presence in Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia especially following the political and societal instability resultant from the Arab Spring protests and revolutions.
        
        Steady growth has occurred among non-European ethnic groups such as Filipinos. In the late 2000s, members residing in Qatar reported that increasing membership necessitated the organization of a second ward in Doha which solely met the needs of Filipino Latter-day Saints. Some congregations in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States appear to have large numbers of Filipinos.
        
        Government agreements and the legal status of the Church have permitted the construction of some LDS facilities. In 1989, the Church obtained permission from the Jordanian government to construct a visitor's center that provides information on church-run universities and study abroad opportunities. The center is also used for local branch functions.[3] By 2011, the Church had three permanent facilities in Israel: The BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern studies, the Galilee Branch meetinghouse (completed in 2007)[4], and the Tel Aviv Branch meetinghouse (completed in 2011).[5] The Church obtained a 99-year lease on the property where the BYU Jerusalem Center stands.[6] In the early 2010s, the Church constructed its first meetinghouse in the Gulf States in the United Arab Emirates.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Still the best plagiarizer on this site Jeff. I am so proud of you.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Joe, I post information that is not just made up in my mind like you do.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Joe Anzilotti · 19 hours ago
        "Mormon missionaries"–what a joke Dion! I will possibly begin to believe these guys are "missionaries" when they go to Kabul to work as "missionaries" or perhaps to Baghdad
        
        That is what you stated. I showed they have been to Baghdad. So, do you believe they are missionaries now?
      - DWoodPC
        
        This information is more like what I know about the Mormon Church and that is they encourage their children to do missionary work; practically every missionary I have met, personally earned his/her mission costs before going on a mission. These kids are full of hope. They are just out of high school and most of them are bound for college at the end of their two years in the field. All of these kids are really good kids, between 19 and 20 years of age.
        
        Thank you so much Jeff for publishing this.
        Mary
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Gee Dion, you are one mean guy, I mean, telling them the truth and all. That can be harmful you know. The "missionaries" may have to go on a real mission trip when they realize how much we are in debt to Jesus.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Yes, some of the poor fellows that I talked with ended up being disowned by their families and lost all hope of employment back in Utah. Almost all that I talked with ended up being sent away after less than a day or two of talking with me. Mormons have a very low tolerance for missionaries who come back from a visit asking hard questions about the history of their church.
        
        One poor fellow said that his father told him on the phone that he would not only disown him, but he would physically beat him as soon as he arrived home. The young man literally begged me to let him live with me for a while, but the local Mormons would not allow him out of their sight untill they put him on a flight back to his home in Utah. The poor kid was frantic and scared to death. I don't know what happened when he got home, but judging from how scared he was it likely wasn't a good home comming.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Dion, I have in fact seen something similar in my experience. These kids (elders!) are in truth, it appears, disowned by their families from what it appears. Quite true.
      - DWoodPC
        
        These young people become the 1 versus the 99… It's biblical… the prodigal son. They are not "disowned" but they are not coddled to stay either. They learn at a young age that they have "free agency" and they are permitted their opinions and choices,,, really! Yet, they also learn that choices have consequences. They would need to return fully accepting the gospel to regain their protections, as the prodigal son, they all know the story. It's serious of course, just as this is serious for any family. I mean it is like typical family problems but the Mormons handle it… they don't just ignore problems. If the child relented and returned by free will it would be like he/she never left. Pretty much the same thing in any good families, actually. I envy the closeness they have within their families. A family that is so close and is so determined to work together is no small feat to accomplish. But it is a regular feat for their families!!! No wonder the wandering "lost" sheep, seems to be "disowned" … the family probably wants to protect what is left of their eternal family if it seems that way. I love them. Please try to just understand them. Thank you.
      - Dionesius3
        
        No you have the analogy reversed. Your church is the 99 and these children are the one. Your church is the prodigal son and these kids are like the one who never left the father.
        These children are getting the first glimpse of the real truth, and your church is very much trying to wipe out the truth they have found. Your church and your Mormon families will use any means necessary to stop these kids from becoming Christians.
        
        And that is what is so extremely funny and duplicitous about Mormons, you all will beat, harass, and bully kids to keep them in your church and out of a Christian church but in the next breath you scream and protest when we Christians say that Mormonism is not Christian.
        
        Can you not see and admit that you hold a logically flawed belief?
      - DWoodPC
        
        Coming from you dear friend, I see your point.
        They don't "beat, harass, or bully kids," as I told you, that is not happening here.
        We are talking about two different groups of people!!!
        Who is screaming Dion? You are.
        Again I have never witnessed any of this outrage.
        Please go and address people who have seen it.
        How can I admit to something I have no witness of… you blame me for impossible things. I am trying to be civil with you.
      - Dionesius3
        
        I don't care what you have witnessed. It's not about you, you egotistic fool. It's about deceived children comming to the truth and meeting the real God of the Bible.
        
        They are the ones that I care about. I couldn't care less about you who are so blind as to ignore mountains of evidence that your church lies, steals, deceives, and dooms fools like yourself to an eternity in Hell.
        
        Go get a fresh pair of holy "g's" on and listen to your elders some more.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Really I had many years of Catholic catechism, which is essentially the same as Reformed Catechism, so no I am not a complete idiot when it comes to Christianity and as a very young adult right out of high school I discovered disparities between what the Catholics taught me and what Jesus taught and that was several years before I even heard of the Mormon Church (which I love.) I think I am a Christian, to the great extent you are, and I am more than Christian. I seek the truth just as you do. And though you know the bible better than I do, I bet I can pass an exam on the ethics taught in the bible as probably you could too.
        
        Why can't you accept that I have beliefs that differ from yours and go from there? You saw all those different religions I sent you in the post … all those are different from yours….. go after them … : ) I am sure you an find twists and turns in their doctrine that can curl your hair. … even though they say they are Christian… who knows.. they are spin-offs of the original Church. Also note that I checked my source and there is no doctrine written at the time of Christ. I just found this out today. When did you find it out, if ever?
        
        I don't want to argue any more.
      - Dionesius3
        
        You say-"Why can't you accept that I have beliefs that differ from yours and go from there? You saw all those different religions I sent you in the post … all those are different from yours….. go after them … : ) I am sure you an find twists and turns in their doctrine that can curl your hair. … even though they say they are Christian.."
        
        1. I have no problem accepting that there are different from mine.
        2. Those are not different religions, they are different denominations of the only true religion.
        3. The differences between my theology and theirs is minor.
        4. They say they are Christians and they are using the term correctly.
        5. Mormonism is NOT a denomination of Christianity.
        6. The differences between Christianity and Mormonism are VAST.
        7. Mormons regularly lie to non Mormons about their beliefs and their history.
        8. Mormons worship a deity that does not appear in the Bible.
        9. Mormons use the terms god, Jesus, and the holy spirit in a false and misleading manner in an effort to deceive non Mormons.
        10. Mormons love to spout how family oriented they are, yet when you look closely family is the least of their concerns.
      - DWoodPC
        
        next to an infinitely wise and good God, Dion, you too are depraved
      - Dionesius3
        
        Next to your false moron deity anything sane or logical looks depraved.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Jeff put your side of the story to rest
      - Dionesius3
        
        Jeff couldn't put to rest anything. All Jeff can do is spout things that he copies from his silly web searches .
        
        If you consider Jeff to be an intelligent person then you are indeed a moron.
      - DWoodPC
        
        ..
      - DWoodPC
        
        Joe the King of the Luddites
      - DWoodPC
        
        It's clear, you are a powerful adversary to them. but it's not you they are worried about, they are worried about no human. I know them. They are worried about the one they can't see… satan. (Doesn't matter where you or they think satan comes from, or any of his origins or who he is related to… he is still satan the terrible) And they have built a protective wall around their kids that they believe will protect them from him. If they leave the church they believe they will lose that protection. I know your passion for the subject first hand. : ) They likely understand this as well, and still in a way maybe you can't understand, they love you for it. I mean it. They just don't want you disenfranchising these young people who probably for the first time go out into the world. Does that make sense? Ever try to wrestle a baby bear from its mother? I imagine that is the reaction you get from the stake … and satan is the reason why! They are wanting you in their fold as much as you want the missionaries to leave it because of your passions for your way. I know absolutely the former is true. So help me God. (I pray I have not incited your wrath. I mean it.)
      - Dionesius3
        
        It is supremely evident that Satan is involved. He is the "heavenly father" that you Mormons worship.
        You are blind to that truth because as you said, "you have never studied the Bible" , and due to your lack of understanding of the Bible you are under the delusion that the Mormon god is the same as the God of the Bible.
        
        But you are dead wrong. And if you don't get this one basic fact correct then you have no chance of ever comming to know the real God.
        
        As I have said over and over I have no wrath for you or any other Mormon. What I have wrath for is the Mormon church doctrine and any one who spouts the lies of the church without looking at the facts.
        I have no patience for anyone who has so closed their mind that they won't even own up to what their espoused belief system teaches.
        
        If you love your church as you say you do, then you owe it to yourself and to your god to both know it's history and be ready to defend that history with well reasoned and logical answers. You do not do this, you prefer to spout the "party line" pablum that says all anti-Mormon facts are of the devil.
        
        That is both lazy and dishonest, and is not worthy of a god whom is supposed to be omnipotent. That in a nut shell is the main issue I have with Mormonism it is a belief system that encourages intellectual laziness and reduces god to the level of man. And it is a belief system that encourages its members to engage in dishonesty when dealing with potential converts. And lastly it encourages it's members to keep secret many details about your faith which a convert is entitled to know up front.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Calling the bible fact is simply absurd.
      - Dionesius3
        
        No Dixon, you saying anything on the subject at hand is both absurd and an oxymoron.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Some of the things you have said about the Mormons is patently absurd Dion. I have no idea where you get all the stuff you publish about them but if my kids were involved you would be in a courtroom defending yourself for child endangerment. I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE THIS. Please leave people along with their families and move on.
        
        Jeff is right in terms of some of what you said. Nevertheless, it is not your business to wrench children away from their families. I am sorry. I care about you in the sense you don't know how delicate a family is, obviously. I pray you please try to understand this.
      - Dionesius3
        
        EVERYTHING you have said has come straight from the mouth of either your husband or your church elders.
        
        Your children will someday learn the truth and when they do I don't think it will be a wonderful day for you little girlie.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Yet, I am the one posting accurate information on the topic at hand. You post your delusional rantings.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Jeff, Dion does not represent the Christian community. I think he and Joe are plants.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Sadly, he is very representative of the Christen community.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Whatever he and Joe are, I am not.
      - DWoodPC
        
        I don't trust you anymore Dionesius3
      - Dionesius3
        
        Who cares!!!
      - DWoodPC
        
        http://www.lds.org Jesus does
      - Dionesius3
        
        Hahahahahahahahhahahahhah, your false Jesus doesn't exist!
        And your silly "heavenly father" can't even control his own children.
        How could he possibly be able to be omnipotent??
        He couldn't and he does not exist.
        
        There is only one God, and he is only found in the Bible and his name is not "heavenly farther" .
        
        You polytheistic, lying, deceived, fool, wake up!!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Neither does your Jesus either, Dion.
      - DWoodPC
        
        You were not completely truthful, Dion. Something terrible did happen. I don't want to talk about that. It's on the record, it's very hideous and I feel awful you and your young Mormon friend did experience such a tragedy. I wonder: why you want to live there? USA is a big place with a lot of diversity in the landscape and the people… just a thought. I hope you feel better.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Yep something terrible did happen, a blind fool Mormon woke up from a lifelong nightmare. And to you and all who are in your cult that is a very great tragedy.
        
        Why do I want to live here???
        
        Because it is the only country on earth that will allow morons like yourself to live in peace and prosperity.
        And it will maybe continue to do so after we have had a lying moron Mormon president for four years.
        But I'm not sure about that last part.
  - DWoodPC
    
    Were you ever a member of the Mormon Church, Dion?
    Do you treat people of other religions, you know, Hindu, Buddists, Hoodoo, Voodoo, Moslem, etc like you treat me?
    Everyone except those adhering to the Holy Bible, I mean.
    - Dionesius3
      
      I most assuredly was not a moron Mormon! But I do have some Mormon neighbors whom I have a modicum of respect for. As to the others you mentioned, I have no ill will towards any individual. I do have ill will towards mind control lying cults like Mormonism and mooslams, who are twin brothers in faiths.
      - DWoodPC
        
        "modicum of respect"? Why Dion, you are an ole softie, after all.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
        
        Soft in the head, perhaps.
- tarkas
  
  In general, LDS has a number of close similarities to another recently created "religion". No not scientology, I am talking about Islam.
  Illiterate dudes getting messages from god, plural marriage etc. Check it out.
Latter day Saint

As a black LDS member, I would like for you to visit blacklds.com and read the truth about the Mormon church:

"This site celebrates the contributions of Blacks to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to their communities. Latter-day Saints are also known as Mormons due to their belief in the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible.

We hope to correct racial myths and misunderstandings that linger from critics of Mormonism as well as from Latter-day Saints themselves. We strive to build the Gospel vision that we are all children of God, of great and equal worth in His sight.

Blacks have been Latter-day Saints since the church’s beginnings in the 1830′s. Some held the priesthood and served missions in the early church. Click on History to see a timeline on how Latter-day Saint events and views toward Blacks unfolded along with religious and secular racial history in America. Read the stories of Black pioneers."

With respect ~
- bighoss
  
  LdS, it is evident from your post that the LDS Church is an equal opportunity brainwasher. You might not be aware, LdS, of just how profoundly unhistorical and bigoted the Mormon Church's concept of the Negro and of other "dark-skinned" people has been. Let me refer you to an unquestionably authoritative Mormon source, Joseph Fielding Smith, a President and Prophet of the cult, who said THIS:
  
  "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have came into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning…."
  
  Another President and Prophet, similarly deluded and confused, uttered this nonsense:
  
  "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God…" (John Taylor, third President of the LDS Church in Journal of Discourses, vol. 22, p. 304).
  
  Are YOU one of the devil's emissaries, LdS? According to the President and Prophet, John Taylor, Ham (allegedly a black man) survived the flood in order to assure that Satan would have representation on the earth!
  
  And all blacks who have intermarried with whites can breathe a sign of relief, since the Mormon prescription of capital punishment for that "offense" seems no longer to apply. Here is what President and Prophet Brigham Young declared on that subject:
  
  "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
  
  So "This will always be so"?? Does this still apply, LdS, or is "always" not really :"always"?
  
  As to slavery, both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were entirely comfortable with and supportive of that practice. For example, in 1855, Brigham Young said this:
  
  "You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham…" (New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue, Spring 1973, p. 56).
  
  These are not "racial myths and misunderstandings that linger from critics of Mormonism," LdS. These are the documented pronouncements of Mormon leaders at the highest level and they reflect some very uncomfortable information concerning the Mormon Church's wildly prejudiced and un-Biblical concepts of black inferiority.
  
  More on this can be found at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech10a.htm. I suggest that you go there and to other non-Mormon sources to balance your currently very tilted perspective on the history of Mormon doctrine and practice concerning blacks.
  - LDS
    
    Bighoss
    
    Fred Bethel, who is African-American, is a Mormon bishop in Fort Lauderdale.
    Here’s what he said via email:
    
    “I can appreciate Rev. Dozier’s active participation in the 2012 presidential campaign and support for his candidate. But the delegate lead Romney currently has, demonstrates that most Americans do not share Rev Dozier’s concerns about a racial divide if Romney is the nominee. Americans are very smart and are most concerned about fixing the economy and together getting Americans back to work.As a 40 year old African American Bishop for the past five years here in the Ft. Lauderdale, FL area, I have experienced a multicultural atmosphere within our house of worship. When you step into our service, it’s hard to tell which cultural group is the majority.
    
    Every religion has members that struggle with or embrace inequality in some form. Ours is no exception. However, just as in every religion, it’s important to separate the people and their personal struggles from the actual doctrine of the church. Three simple points help to illustrate that the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not prejudice against Blacks or any other group:
    
    1. The Book of Mormon was originally written in, and translated from an African language, Egyptian.
    
    2. The Book of Mormon and the LDS version of the King James Bible, actually clarifies that the use of the words “skin”, “black” and “darkness” are referring to the state of the spirit, heart and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all
    
    3. The Doctrine & Covenants, the book of divine instructions for establishing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, clearly states numerous times that all are equal and all are to receive alike.
    
    We would invite Rev Dozier and anyone else who would like to gain clarity on these issues to attend one of the African American Outreach Program classes put on throughout the country by regular members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or by simply viewing the Blacks in the Scriptures DVD series by Marvin Perkins and Darius Gray, two African American Latter-day Saints. Information on the DVD series and where classes are held can be found at http://www.BlacksintheScriptures.com
    
    The Church’s position is clear—we believe all people are God’s children and are equal in His eyes and in the Church. We do not tolerate racism in any form.”
    - Latter day Saint
      
      http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/29303…
      
      This entry was posted on Friday, March 16th, 2012 at 11:40 am and is filed under Black, Mormon, Religion.
      
      One Response to “Bishop Bethel Responds to Rev Dozier on Racism”
      1.Reinhard Haidenthaller Says:
      April 16th, 2012 at 10:36 am
      The meat of this article is very well put, it clearly shatters many of the misconceptions propogated by those who do not understand the doctrine of the church. I am caucasian and have many friends who are Black who are members of the church also, as am I, and others who are not. All I can say to the detractors of the church is; 1) find out the correct doctrine, 2)have an open mind to others’ opinions as to what the doctrinal reality is before forming an opinion one way or the other. Dogmatism has no place in the truth.
      - Just
        
        amen.. and amen
      - bighoss
        
        I have indeed found out many things that the LDS Church has taught and things that it continues to teach and have documented them from official Mormon sources, both historical and contemporary. Mormons on this forum consistently decline to address the substance of what I have provided here, choosing instead to insult and vilify me and to offer irrelevant comments that utterly fail to address the issues raised.
        
        There is simply no intellectually honest way to defend the zany tenets of Mormonism or to erase the pompous and heretical pronouncements of its past "Prophets" and "Apostles." None of the Mormon doctrines I have described have been "shattered" as misconceptions in any of the information provided by other discussants on this forum. You are a bunch of whipped puppies, and all you have been able to serve up thus far is whiny irrelevancies.
    - bighoss
      
      And when Bishop Fred Bethel reads THESE pronouncements (below) from Mormon Presidents and Prophets, how does he reconcile these with his argument that the BOM and Mormon KJV , in using the words, "black", "skin", and "darkness," are merely referring to the "state of the spirit, heart,and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all"?
      
      Brigham Young:
      
      "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
      
      Any way you try to cut it, LDS, neither "race" nor "African race" are "condition[s] of the spirit, heart and mind."
      ______
      Joseph Fielding Smith, a President and Prophet of the cult::
      
      "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have came into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. (The Way to Perfection, Salt Lake City, 1935, pp. 101-2).
      
      So you would say that President Smith, in his reference to "black skin" was referring to "the state of the spirit, heart and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all? Come on, LDS, that is a stretch that no one with a minuscule amount of logical competence would buy!
      
      _____
      
      Bro. Brigham again:
      
      "You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham…" (New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue, Spring 1973, p. 56).
      
      So, LDS, does Brigham Young identified "Negro" in terms of some "state of the spirit, heart and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all"?
      
      ___
      
      From "Apostle" Mark Petersen, a revered theologian of the Mormon Church, addressing an audience of Mormon professors at Brigham Young University:
      
      "Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood…. This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa—if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory (Race Problems—As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954).
      
      Four times, this Mormon "Apostle" uses the term "Negro," and identifies "the Negro" as "cursed as to the priesthood." To contend that Petersen was addressing "the state of the spirit, heart and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all" is fatuous and ludicrous, and is so intellectually dishonest that you, as a former professor, should be ashamed to embrace such a statement as anything other than what, on its face, it glaringly is. SO TELL THIS FORUM–do you consider that these words from Apostle Peterson as merely addressing "the state of the spirit, heart and mind, and not a reference to race or literal skin color at all"? Inquiring minds want to know.
      
      I could cite numerous other instances where authorities of the LDS Church unambiguously interpreted the status of the Negro race as inferior and as not being entitled to the priesthood specifically on the basis of alleged racial origins, but the above should be sufficient to eliminate any credibility whatsoever on the part of Bishop Fred Bethel, who has to be either woefully ignorant of LDS history or purposely deceitful in misconstruing it as he most certainly has.
      - Latter day Saint
        
        Bighoss
        
        Myth #1: Blacks couldn't have the priesthood because they had the curse or mark of Cain
        
        This belief was commonly held by many Protestant denominations in early American history. It was often used as a justification for slavery and reached its peak about the time of the Civil War. Many people who joined the LDS Church brought this teaching into the Church with them. Most Protestants later changed their talking points on this to say the children of Cain were wiped out during Noah's flood, so the cursing came though the flood through Ham. Therefore, the more modern phrasing of this belief is the so-called "curse of Ham." But the curse of Cain continued to be taught in the then geographically isolated LDS Church.
        
        While the scriptures do talk about a mark being put on Cain, there is no scriptural explanation of what that mark may be or how it relates to the priesthood. One member of my high priest quorum suggested the mark is likely to be male pattern baldness.
        
        There is a scripture in the Book of Moses talking about the children of Canaan being black (Moses 7:8), but there is no given connection between Cain and Canaan. Just because a name sounds similar, doesn't make it the same.
        
        Even in the Book of Abraham, the priesthood restrictions were not put on "blacks", but on the lineage of the Egyptian Pharaoh. This was at the time of Abraham, long before Jesus Christ. If you were alive at that time, it is likely you would have been restricted from that priesthood as well.
        
        Myth #2: Blacks were neutral or less valiant in the pre-existence
        
        This terrible teaching was repudiated by none other than Brigham Young himself. Unfortunately, it continued to be perpetuated by many members throughout our history, and even ended up in books authored by Joseph Fielding Smith.
        
        In an interview, apostle Jeffery R. Holland said the following: "One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. … I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. … They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong." (Source: http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.htm…
        
        For those who are troubled by the fact that explanations given historically are now being repudiated, we have to look at the words of Bruce R. McConkie, who was originally a proponent of those theories. He said, "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
        
        "We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more." (Source: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=1101…
        
        Myth #3: The best example to explain blacks not having the priesthood comes from the Levites.The Levites were able to hold the priesthood, while others were not. This shows how God restricts people of certain lineages from receiving the priesthood just like he did with blacks.
        
        While it may be true that Levites could hold the priesthood while others could not, it has little to do with this issue. The ancient practice where only one group is able to exercise the priesthood and work in the temple has little in common with modern times when everyone is able to hold the priesthood except for one group. Repeating this claim as an explanation doesn't provide adequate support for the argument, and the claim completely falls apart when we recognize that Joseph Smith, Parley P. Pratt, William Smith, and Orson Hyde all ordained blacks to the priesthood in the 1830s and 1840s. The explanation is not helpful and can be hurtful.
        
        So why couldn't blacks have the priesthood? Gordon B. Hinckley stated, "I don't know what the reason was. But I know that we've rectified whatever may have appeared to be wrong at the time."(Source: http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.ht…
        
        Men are slow to change in their beliefs. Even in the New Testament, Peter had to be lifted beyond his prejudice to sit and eat with the Gentiles. I hope we all take the time to familiarize ourselves with this topic and not perpetuate the hurtful and harmful myths that have been repeated for so long.
        
        It is worth an hour or two of our time to read several articles on Mormonism and race, so we can help those around us. It will help us relating to African-Americans who join the Church. It will help us in teaching our children in such a way that they won't make hurtful assumptions. It will help us in keeping our children from falling away as they learn about this past practice.
      - bighoss
        
        Thanks so much for that explanation. It documents as well as I could have just how the alleged Morrnon "Prophets" who claimed direct revelation from God have had their "revelations" reversed or otherwise corrected by later statements of other Mormon luminaries. As some of your officialdom have stated, and as you quoted from them above:
        
        From Bruce McConkie:
        
        "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
        
        We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more."
        
        From. President Gordon B. Hinckley:
        
        "I don't know what the reason was. But I know that we've rectified whatever may have appeared to be wrong at the time."
        
        The "darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past." and the things that were "wrong at the time" were passed off as DIRECT REVELATION from God to Mormon so-called "Prophets," Latter day Saint!
        It might be convenient for your Mormon hierarchy to go back in time and adjust or rescind those crazy doctrines and "revelations" in an effort to make Mormonism appear less wacky than it is and more consistent with decent social values and the universal sense of equality of the races, but that does not erase the FACT that those former "Prophets, Priests, and REVELATORS (Mormon term describing the role of the "Prophet") said the outrageous, false and bigoted things they ACTUALLY SAID about the black race.
        
        Mormon authorities in the past have often issued ludicrous pronouncements under color of alleged "revelation" that have, in time, proved just too absurd and embarrassing to let stand. Under such circumstances, it becomes necessary to back away from past "revelations" and crank up some specious "explanation" for why those past "revelations" were "inadequate and/or wrong" and don't matter any more".. Such shabby maneuvering insults God Himself by depicting Him as a cosmic flip-flopper! Shame on the dishonest Mormon apologists who attempt to perpetrate such transparent deceptions!
  - DWoodPC
    
    So he begins his diatribe never once giving any quotes on what was said about whites in his latest meetings. Give us a few quotes, from those meetings, bighoss! Make history.
    - bighoss
      
      No quotes are necessary, DWoodPC, since whatever "meetings" you refer to have not happened. I am fully capable of discovering the absurdities and blasphemous doctrines of Mormonism without any help from others at "meetings" of any kind.
      
      Your speculation about "meetings" and things "said about whites" at meetings that never happened reveals just how desperate you are in your vain efforts to discredit me.
      
      DWood, I was a debater in both high school and college and I am familiar with the standards that govern honest polemics. Those standards reveal you and other Mormon defenders in this discussion as miserably incompetent and hopelessly evasive
      - DWoodPC
        
        big hoss … whether it is my computer or the zionic site, I can't locate the thread of the argument where you are going to declare me weasel of the month — I get those cheery messages in my personal email from ID — but I must tell you, you can call me what you may, I know better, I know "Mormons" and you are a pompous ass… so I will concede… go ahead you will do it anyway… as you have demonstrated, since I don't have time to spend my life digging up your garbage to prove me right…. I let go and let God … sounds trivial to you because you are such an advanced debater having logic as your by-word, but that is what God is all about… I doubt you understand that either.
      - bighoss
        
        DWood, you say that you: "don't have time to spend my life digging up your garbage to prove me right."
        
        Allow me to translate that. What that really means is that you either are too lazy to do the research that you think would support your disagreement with me or you know that what I have posted is correct and you are being your usual evasive self.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Dear Hoss (doesn't seem right to say that)
        
        Okay. I asked you a simple question: I asked you to re-state the rail you had against conservatives. It was about 2 lines long or thereabouts. It was extremely threatening . That is the piece of your garbage I am talking about. I don't know about you but it is a chore for my comuter to find things on all the variety of sites we use. You never would repeat it, so each time I see a response of yours it makes me wonder about what you are up too. Does that make sense? Ask again if you want clarification.
        
        Thanks
        dwood
        
        p.s. please find it for me and let me know when you post it. : )
      - DWoodPC
        
        and where :)
      - DWoodPC
        
        "…too lazy…" hoss? HAHAHA
      - DWoodPC
        
        you are the evasive one, bighoss… it is now at least 4 times I have asked you to re-publish your delightful true feelings about conservatives which is some where in your record on Zionica… you are just constructing a coverup with all your continuing innuendo
- Trisha Holmeide
  
  Thank you, brother, for sharing this oft times obscured information about Black membership in the Church. I can't imagine why some people see the glass half empty while we see it half full–when the entire world along with we modern-day Saints were allowed to witness the "fulfillment" of prophecy in our own time. And, what a blessing the Priesthood has been since the keys of this–the last–dispensation have been restored. I am quite often reminded though that
  God is no respecter of persons, and none of us can afford to get up on our "high horse" thinking we are superior in any shape or form–we all fall short in some way or another and need the saving grace of the Savior.
Evermyrtle

This is the first time that I can truly say any thing against the Mormon church. It makes no difference if Romney says he is a Mormon,it is wrong to support someone who is anti-CHRIST. He has supported abortion, homosexuality and other laws that were against the teachings of JESUS CHRIST. This support points ot to me that you are not a Christian establishment.
- 724willy
  
  Myrtle, would you be suggesting we vote for a Black Liberation [ communist- quazi-muslim narsisist ] instead.
  The choice is crystal clear to any thinking person. Besides, we are not electing a pastur, or a priest.
  Lets not fog the issue, a proven business man trumps a community organizer- failed socialist any day of the week.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    Six of one half dozen of the other.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    724 I'm not suggesting, anything. I assume that most people are much like me, they know what to do according to the information they have. In fact, if I vote it likely be for the third party. Wasted vote?? You understate the power of GOD, I will in the end do what I believe HE is leading me to do.
    - ssongtan
      
      Christians don't bash other Christians simply because they are of an other Christian denomination. There is nothing in the LDS denomination that remotely suggests that it is anything other than Christian. I have belonged to several different denominations in my 65 years of life. I have read the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine of Covenants and the Pear of Great Price from cover to cover. In short every single word as well as compared all three with the King James Version Bible. There is not a single statement that is not in sinc with the Word of God, the teachings of Jesus or the letters and teaching of the Disciples, prophets, etc. It is interesting that you choose to trash Romney based on uneducated, ill conceived data while at the same time have no disregard to Harry Reid who is 180 degrees from Romney views and is also LDS.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Actually I was not objecting to his faith, but for anyone who will support laws that are "an abomination to GOD". I was not grabbing this out of the air, but from numerous news reports. My opposition is that a man who will support such things will be "THE PRESIDENT OF MY COUNTRY" I want a president who says he is a Christin and who will back up what he says, by what he really believes and what he supports. To support him you also support what he supports and the Mormon faith is supporting him, I believe.
        
        I never did get an answer to, did he say, that he did not have a problem with placing an orphan child in the home of two married to each other homosexuals, a child who will certainly be taught that this life style is right.
        There is no way that a anti-homosexual would admit such a thing. This was in the news several times.
      - Truth
        
        Evermyrtle, According to politifact check, Romney is a clear opponent of gay marriage, and does not seem to favor civil unions if they afford all the same benefits as marriage. But he is on record as supporting domestic partnerships, with specific rights DETERMINED INDIVIDUALLY BY THE STATES. The Obama campaign interprets this as Romney saying states would be allowed to deny gay couples the right to adopt. But when he has articulated his position, he has often mentioned adoption as one of the rights states COULD grant. (Depends on the will of the majority)
        
        Mormons do hold free agency of mankind as one of the most important gifts that is endowed by God. Romney is against big government and believes the powers should mainly be held by the states, aka 'people.' If the majority is not moral, then we do not have moral laws, that is obvious. You can oppose something and yet 'allow it' because your belief is not to interfere with the agency of man. God opposes evil and yet allows it – for the condemnation of man.
        
        Mormons are also taught that we should abide by the law of the land – which in our case in America is 'by the people.' There is the rub, Evermyrtle – if the majority of good men do nothing, evil will triumph and we have no one to blame but ourselves if the laws are not in line with our beliefs. There is power in the vote – at least for now. I do believe that Romney is a moral incredibly decent man and lives his life accordingly . He is very aware I am sure by his comments that it is 'the people' who determine whether we are free or will be in 'bondage.'
      - DWoodPC
        
        DEAR EVERMYRTLE: "an abomination to GOD" IS NOT MITT ROMNEY. Please do more research. Thank you for your comment. dwoodpc
    - Searching
      
      Evermyrtle – Do not underestimate Satan as well, and his interests in this election. I would fast and pray and open your heart to the promptings of the Spirit before making a decision.
- Just
  
  Evermyrtle… I believe that if you delve deeply into what Romney believes you will find that he absolutely does not believe that abortion is alright but he did believe in free agency.
  Q: Why such a dramatic and profound change after pledging never to waiver on a woman’s right to choose?
  A: I was always personally opposed to abortion, as I think almost everyone in this nation is. And the question for me was, what is the role of government? And it was quite theoretical and philosophical to consider what the role of government should be in this regard, and I felt that the Supreme Court had spoken and that government shouldn’t be involved and let people make their own decision. That all made a lot of sense to me. Then I became governor and the theoretical became reality. A bill came to my desk which related to the preservation of life. I recognized that I simply could not be part of an effort that would cause the destruction of human lift. And I didn’t hide from that change of heart. I recognize it’s a change. Every piece of legislation which came to my desk in the coming years as the governor, I came down on the side of preserving the sanctity of life.
  
  Q: Do you believe life begins at conception?
  A: I do. I believe from a political perspective that life begins at conception. I don’t pretend to know, if you will, from a theological standpoint when life begins. I’d committed to the people of Massachusetts that I would not change the laws one way or the other, and I honored that commitment. But each law that was brought to my desk attempted to expand abortion rights and, in each case, I vetoed that effort. I also promoted abstinence education in our schools. I vetoed an effort, for instance, to give young women a morning after pill who did not have prescriptions. So I took action to preserve the sanctity of life. But I did not violate my word, of course.
  
  Source: Meet the Press: 2007 “Meet the Candidates” series , Dec 16, 2007
  Q: Your aides say you see ending abortion as a two-step process: rolling back Roe v. Wade, which would leave it legal in some states; and then a constitutional amendment to ban it nationwide. If abortion is murder, how can you live with it being legal in some states?
  A: I’d love to have an America that didn’t have abortion. But that’s not what the American people [want] right now. And so I’d like to see Roe v. Wade overturned and allow the states to put in place pro-life legislation. I recognize that for many people, that is considered an act of murder, to have an abortion. It is without question the taking of a human life. And I believe that a civilized society must respect the sanctity of the human life. But we have two lives involved here–a mom, an unborn child. We have to have concern for both lives & show the expression of our compassion & our consideration and work to change hearts & minds, and that’s the way in my view we’ll ultimately have a society without abortion.
  Q: Would you expand federal funding of embryonic stem cell research?
  A: It certainly will. Altered nuclear transfer, I think, is perhaps the best source.
  
  Q: Embryonic.
  
  A: Altered nuclear transfer creates embryo-like cells that can be used for stem cell research. In my view, that’s the most promising source. I have a deep concern about curing disease. I have a wife that has a serious disease that could be affected by stem cell research and others. But I will not create new embryos through cloning or through embryo farming, because that will be creating life for the purpose of destroying it.
  Stem cell research lofty goals don’t justify destroying life
  Romney adopted the “pro-life” label after his battle over stem cell research. Ann Romney has multiple sclerosis. Romney, who not surprisingly cites the diagnosis of his wife’s disease as one of the greatest blows of his life, is nevertheless alarmed by the aggressive program of embryonic stem cell research consortiums. He has taken a stand against the Harvard Stem Cell Institute.
  
  I believe that he think is that gays should have 'rights'.. but as far as marriage being defined as anything other than between a woman and a man – he will never give on that one. I do not know what other laws you are talking about…
  - Just
    
    When it comes to gay marriage, Flaherty added, "I have never seen a change in tone, a change in approach, a change in purpose."
    
    Romney sought office twice in Massachusetts — challenging Sen. Edward M. Kennedy in 1994 and running for governor in 2002. Both times, he paired his opposition to gay marriage and civil unions with strong support for other gay rights.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    The only thing I have to go by that makes much sense is news reports, over the last several years. I do realize that some time they are wrong. If they are, they have many thousands of people fooled, just not many who will speak up, one way or the other. I firmly believe on standing up and standing on the truth as far as I can find it. You have convinced me of nothing, but if you have proof I will change my mind and will pull for him 100%, I want a good conservative Christian in the WH and leader. !
    
    By the way do you deny that he said that he had no problem in placing a child in a home of two married to each other homosexuals.
- DWoodPC
  
  Evermyrtle: Romney was a governor of a Democratic Party state. Many of these laws were in place before his coming to office. He had sworn to up hold the opinions of the people of his state (He is very strong on States Rights) and when he was put to the test — a bill came across to put into law the aspect of abortion that the legislature had already approved, while he wanted to give the people what they wanted, HE COULD NOT AND DID NOT SIGN THE BILL! This was a similar situation with homosexuality, but he had really refused support of it, but that law had already been passed before he became governor.
  
  May 9, 2012 "Presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney said he is opposed to civil unions and gay marriage on the same day that President Barack Obama became the first president to support same-sex marriage.
  
  "Well, when these issues were raised in my state of Massachusetts, I indicated my view, which is I do not favor marriage between people of the same gender, and I do not favor civil unions if they are identical to marriage other than by name," the former Massachusetts governor told Denver Fox affiliate KDVR-TV. "My view is the domestic partnership benefits, hospital visitation rights, and the like are appropriate but that the others are not."
  
  Obama's support came following Tuesday's passage of a North Carolina constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, civil unions and domestic partnerships, and also Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan signaling support for gay marriage earlier this week." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/mitt-rom…
  
  "… Romney spokeswoman Gail Gitcho said last year that he supports a watered-down version of the amendment that "overturns Roe v. Wade and sends the issue back to the states" — a far cry from the legislation for which … the Obama campaign is now trying to pin on Romney.
  "Mitt Romney is pro-life, and as he has said previously, he is supportive of efforts to ensure recognition that life begins at conception," Gitcho continued." accessed 7/5/2012 http://www.buzzfeed.com/coppinskaczynski/obama-ca…
- Trisha Holmeide
  
  Please don't over-generalize in your very otherwise logical complaint. Mitt Romney is not the entire membership of the LDS faith. Probably 99% of the active membership is pro-life and decidedly against abortion–believing as the prophets have advised it IS the taking of sacred human life. And, probably that same 99% of active membership believes homosexual behavior is sin just as Adultery is sin. What other "laws that were against the teachings of JESUS CHRIST" you are referring to I do not know, but never-the-less I doubt you would judge the entire membership of your own faith by the actions of one member who might be running for political office (which right there should give us some what of a clue about their integrity).
  - DWoodPC
    
    she is judging Mitt, Trisha, based on complete falsehoods
- Republichic
  
  Evermyrtle, I know that God placed each one of us here for a purpose. As for myself, I am in no position to judge Governor Romney. I think he is a dedicated faith-driven individual, who has exhibited his belief in God by loving his wife, staying true to her, helping to raise 5 boys, actively working to support his family without a handout, and staying committed to his church. So far, every person that I have watched and followed that are members of the Mormon faith, I have seen nothing but love for God, charity from the heart, a passion to always help others and living by their faith. I will be voting from Romney and feel so lucky to have a candidate that I know loves God, as opposed to our current Muslim in office.
Patriot

Evermyrtle, are you talking about Romney or OWEbama? Seems to me OWEbama supports: abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, and is against Christianity. Whereas Gov. Romney has not and does not state any of that. Please clarify your statement and cite TRUE examples of where Go.v Romney has stated such. I have not found any.
- Deep_Thinker
  
  The first gay marriage bill signed by a state governor was in??? Anybody, Bueller? Romney, in Mass..
  
  Do your homework.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    Amen, Deep Thinker. "For once, we jive"
  - bighoss
    
    And did he sign it because it was what was presented to him on his Etch-a-Sketch that day?
    - Just
      
      Goodridge v. Department of Public Health was brought by Gloria Bailey and Linda Davies; Maureen Brodoff and Ellen Wade; Hillary Goodridge and Julie Goodridge; Gary Chalmers and Richard Linnell; Heidi Norton and Gina Smith; Michael Horgan and Edward Balmelli; and David Wilson and Robert Compton; the plaintiffs successfully argued that denying gay couples equal marriage rights was unconstitutional. The court specified that the original marriage law banned homosexuals from marrying partners of the same sex as themselves. This law was left intact by the Goodridge ruling ("Here, no one argues that striking down the marriage laws is an appropriate form of relief.").[8][dead link] The court gave the Massachusetts Legislature 180 days in which to "take such action as it may deem appropriate" following its November 18, 2003 ruling. Governor Mitt Romney ordered town clerks to begin issuing marriage licenses on May 17, 2004.
      
      Governor Mitt Romney launched the "superslate" campaign in 2004, based on the idea that the state Republican Party could use Conservative ideals and family values as a wedge issue and gain seats, spending millions of his own dollars and personally campaigning for Republican candidates in traditionally Democratic seats. Despite his efforts, the Republican party lost three seats in the 2004 election. Since then, many legislators have changed their views to reflect growing support for same-sex marriage among their constituents. One of the original sponsors of the amendment to ban same-sex marriage and legalize civil unions, Brian Lees, said, "Gay marriage has begun, and life has not changed for the citizens of the commonwealth, with the exception of those who can now marry."[11]."
      
      Sometime you do your best and that is all you can do.. the rest is up to the people… would behoove us all to understand the full story and do our part to help Governers
  - DWoodPC
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorship_of_Mitt…
    This was a STATE'S right's issue and Gov Romney never declared himself the KING!
    
    Things are just never as simple as it seems, Evermyrtle and Deep Thinker
  - Xman3
    
    Remember that Romney, as a Republican, in the Liberal State of Mass., and as Governor, he had a Democratic majority in the State Legislature. So remember one thing: the State Legislature of Democrats wrote and passed all of the bills that eventually went to the Governor for signature, including what President Obumer and the Democrats are now calling 'RomneyCare'. So Democrats are bashing Romney over what were/are State Democrat bills that the Democrats passed themselves. I call this Deception and Democratic lies. (nothing new here)
    
    in 2012, don't believe the media and if one votes for a Democrat (or Rino) at any level of Government – Federal, State or Local, that person may be an idiot. Vote for the most Constitutional, Conservative, Christian Candidate.
Evermyrtle

BOTH OF THEM!!!!! Check Romney's records of the past. The last one, this year, I believe, anyway very recently, when he stated he had no problem with placing a child in the home of two married homosexuals. Now, the "the great love of my life, just after my love for JESUS CHRIST is children, especially abused children" To place a child in such a home is further abuse for that child.. He will be taught that homosexuality is OK. You need to check out what he has supported int he years proceeding 20010
- http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville
  
  Reader be aware that Evermyrtle is a Mormon and she is herding for her Mormon brother…
  - Evermyrtle
    
    No need to worry, I have never been inside a Mormon Church if that is what the call their meeting place but I know two Mormons, who are both very nice sensative, loving people. I never questioned them on what they believe because I believe that GOD will judge me by what I believe, and how I live according to what I believe, not what they believe or by what you believe.
    
    By the way if I were Mormon I would admit it. I do not hide behind anything, not do I accuse people of things that I know nothing about . Now for you Desperateville, I've read many, many of your post and have you pretty tagged. I will not print that where it can be seen,since it is only my opinion, and nobody's business but mine.
    
    Yes, indeed, I do know you have an answer ready, if it right or if it is wrong makes no difference to you!!
    - http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville
      
      "By the way if I were Mormon I would admit it."
      
      You did. In your own words you have affirmed that below text from Mormon source is speaking about "your god"
      
      'The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
      
      Doctrines and Covenants 130:22
      - bighoss
        
        You nailed her, Despeville! Those sneaky Mormons don't always cover their tracks.
    - DWoodPC
      
      "but I know two Mormons"
      is that it Evermyrtle,… you never questioned them on their beliefs? How do you know they are "Mormons"
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Is that it, Myrtle? Yes that is it.!!
        
        Did you question them? No, I did not question them! They didn't question me and I gave the same right that they gave me. GOD never told me, not one time that HE expected me to question every person who was of a different faith from mine. It that HE tells you? HE tell me in HIS WORD that i had better be careful how I judged them!!!
        
        Anything else you need to know???
        How do you know they were Mormons, we were involved in Family History Research, together.
- Truth
  
  Evermyrtle, According to politifact check, Romney is a clear opponent of gay marriage, and does not seem to favor civil unions if they afford all the same benefits as marriage. But he is on record as supporting domestic partnerships, with specific rights DETERMINED INDIVIDUALLY BY THE STATES. The Obama campaign interprets this as Romney saying states would be allowed to deny gay couples the right to adopt. But when he has articulated his position, he has often mentioned adoption as one of the rights states COULD grant. (Depends on the will of the majority)
  
  Mormons do hold free agency of mankind as one of the most important gifts that is endowed by God. Romney is against big government and believes the powers should mainly be held by the states, aka 'people.' If the majority is not moral, then we do not have moral laws, that is obvious. You can oppose something and yet 'allow it' because your belief is not to interfere with the agency of man. God opposes evil and yet allows it – for the condemnation of man.
  
  Mormons are also taught that we should abide by the law of the land – which in our case in America is 'by the people.' There is the rub, Evermyrtle – if the majority of good men do nothing, evil will triumph and we have no one to blame but ourselves if the laws are not in line with our beliefs. There is power in the vote – at least for now. I do believe that Romney is a moral incredibly decent man and lives his life accordingly . He is very aware I am sure by his comments that it is 'the people' who determine whether we are free or will be in 'bondage.'
Barney

Keep posting, I'll be more inclined to vote for Ron Paul everyday.
- bighoss
  
  Your choice. Throw your vote away; might as well vote for Pogo.
- crashaxe
  
  Ron Paul is our only hope.
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
    
    The country survived for over 200 years without Ron Paul as president. It will handle it without him this time as well.
Winston

Mormons have entered the realm of what blacks have been doing… promoting a candidate, not by their ability but by their particular faith… or skin color. That is NOT what politics is supposed to be about. The ignorance amazes me and it's what is making America a third-world nation… turning political candidates (because of race or faith) into dictators.
- DWoodPC
  
  au contraire, Winston
  they have not.
  It is not Mitt who has spread all those anti-Mormon stories, but his nemeses
  - Just
    
    Glad someone was paying attention!
    - DWoodPC
      
      Likewise!
- Esteban Cafe
  
  Ah Winston? Please recall that American Evangelicals elected Mr. Jimmy Carter because he was "Born Again." How did that work out for your country? "This is NOT what politics is supposed to be about.. The ignorance amazes me…" We remain amazed, sir, at yours.
  
  Seriously, you should watch your POOR judgement (as judgement is ok correctly rendered). What I have read about Mr. Romney leads me to believe he would be a better president than Mr. Obama has been.
Dee

All of the above aside, we could still do a lot worse than to have a Mormon for president. OH WAIT! We already ARE doing worse. I like Paul, but if he doesn't get the nomination at the convention, I will be holding my nose and voting Romney. To write in Paul is equivalent to voting for Obama, and I would never do that.
- http://youtu.be/HlD3Gaq4cN0 Despeville
  
  Really? So for you there is much difference between Muslim and a Mormon? In what sense then please…
Xman3

Yes Dee, all the Mormon bashers at this site sure seem to be a bunch of nut-cases and sure are lacking Christian traits and values. We have seen Obama and his Democrat followers for the past 3 1/2 years and how America is falling under this Administration. God gave us a brain, and I sure hope the American Voter can still use it.

Don't believe the media, and if one votes for a Democrat (or RINO) at any level of Government – Federal, State or Local, that person may be an idiot.
- millergroup2
  
  Mormon bashers? nut cases? Lacking Christian traits? Everything said about the Mormon cult is dead on. Not one Mormon has explained, or given a rebuttal. That is because there is no argument. It is us Christians who stand the wall and report to naive people like you, who ingest lies of LDS, and then teach what you think you have learned to other gullible, naive people. You call Mormon's Christians? It is time you get yourself some study material and learn the truth. Any rebuttal? Thought not!
  - Xman3
    
    Sounds like more denomination bashing. Doesn't sound very Christian to me. But then again, you belong to the really only one true denomination that is truly saved and going to heaven. You are superior to all those others who claim to be Christian.
    Hope you make a good voting choice, at all levels of Government – President, Congressman, Senator, State and Local races.
    - DWoodPC
      
      Xman3, I appreciate your restraint since I have had difficulty keeping my cool. I hope to follow your good example.
      - bighoss
        
        You have not only had difficulty keeping your cool; you have had great difficulty in providing any kind of credible
        facts and substance with which to defend the LDS Church's disgraceful and embarrassing history of dealing with the black race. You seem not to have any difficulty, however, in cranking out irrelevant insults in a vain effort to "defend" your blasphemous belief system.
      - LDS
        
        Hold on… in truth, bighoss… that embarrassing history you are speaking about when it comes to dealing with the 'black race' can be 'shared' with all Protestant denomination slaveholders of the time and segregated 'Christian' churches…. lest we forget. We all have lessons to learn about how 'culture' effects our attitudes.
      - Just
        
        It is true… Christians do not have any room to judge other sects or peoples, when you take in consideration past behavior. There is good and bad – it is a human condition. All we can hope is that we learn from our past mistakes and not let our 'love wax cold' as it is prophesied. I judge a Christian by their behavior in the here and now – it speaks volumes about their level of spirituality.
      - bighoss
        
        A major difference, though, LDS, is that Mormons claimed to have gotten their information on such silly matters as the alleged pre-existence of Cain and his miscreant behavior before he got to earth from direct revelation through "Prophets." Those prophets MUST be considered to have been discredited if the current Mormon "explanations" for those past Mormon racist doctrines are to be taken seriously. You Mormons can not have it both ways. You either have to stick with the alleged "inspired revelations" of your past "Prophets" or admit that they were WRONG and therefore could not have received those "revelations" from God. Any cult needs to be sure they don't propagate irrational and absurd notions under color of alleged Divine revelations. Such "revelations" have a way of coming back to bite them in the neck about 14 joints down.
      - Vladimir
        
        I'm glad I listen to prophets of God instead of you, bighoss. Now you are spouoting stuff I've never heard before. I know it isn't true because it violates principles that I know to be true. You need to get yourself a set of true principles. Unfortunately you know "not where to look".
      - bighoss
        
        Maybe YOU need to re-evaluate your own principles, Vlad. How silly of you to "know" that what you have never even seen before is not true. Tell us of those majestic principles that so unerringly guide your thinking and show us how any one of them disproves anything I have posted. The proof is in the pudding, Vlad..
      - Vladimir
        
        Go to Mormon.org, bighoss.
      - bighoss
        
        Been there often. It provides me with a lot of documentation that I have posted on this forum and that you and other Mormons scoff at.
      - Search for Truth
        
        Better yet, bighoss, go to blacklds.com Very enlightening!
      - bighoss
        
        I went there, and I posted the following there in their comments section after reading the half-vast account they provided concerning the history of blacks and the Mormon priesthood. Do you think they will approve this comment for publication?
        
        <<<<From the timeline, above:
        
        " June 1, 1978: The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles unite in prayer at the Salt Lake Temple, and simultaneously receive a revelation that their decision to offer the priesthood to all worthy males is correct. Most of the Apostles report the event as the most intense spiritual experience of their lives; others describe the outpouring of God’s Spirit in terms of the Day of Pentecost in the New Testament.
        
        1978 to present: The revelation itself did not include any theological explanation, and to this day the theological underpinnings of the priesthood restriction are not understood."
        
        Of COURSE, no theological explanation was provided for this change in the status of the Negro vis a vis the priesthood. There is NO rational explanation for changing that which was propagated by no less than the Prophet and President, Brigham Young, himself, (Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, dated February 5, 1852, located in the LDS Church historical department). Thus saith Brigham:
        
        I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain … they cannot bear rule in the priesthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the resedue of the posterity of Michal and his wife receive the blessings…. until the times of the restitution shall come … Then Cain's seed will be had in remembrance, and the time come when that curse should be wiped off….">>>>
        
        Mormons hold that the "time of the restitution is a still-future event. Thus, the priesthood has been granted to blacks prematurely, in defiance of Joseph Smith's "prophetic" words.
        
        Oh, wait–there IS a rational explanation for this change! The LDS Church simply could not maintain credibility in the latter part of the 20th Century if it continued to hold to the racist notions perpetrated by Smith, Young and many other Mormon bigots. And thus were the "inspired" words of the Prophet Brigham erased for the sake of credibility, just as the words of Joseph Smith on plural marriage were "suspended" in order to get Utah into the United States. Expediency trumps prophecy and inspiration when necessary, insofar as much of the LDS's history is concerned.,
      - Truth
        
        Oh, wait – that must mean that all slave-owning Christian denominations that were contemporaries with Smith, Young and others at the time and and who unlike the Mormons, totally refused to allow blacks in their churches and segregated black worshipers from white – and were finally 'forced' to allow 'equality' in what – the 50's 60's, (while Smith, Young and others were being persecuted, murdered and run out of their homes for their 'beliefs' and stance against slavery) cannot maintain credibility as well in this latter part of the 20th Century – thank you so much for clearing that up, bighoss ! Good to know! Truth is enlightening after all!
      - Dionesius3
        
        Nope, most all southern churches allowed blacks to sit in the balcony, or just at the feet of their masters. And when these options were not available most plantation owners had preachers come and hold services for the slaves. So your wrong Truth, you know nothing, and you study nothing except what your moron Mormon elders tell you.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Vlad, I am trying to think of a good name for Dionesius3. His is an opportunist who has frequently used my good nature to blast my favorite Christians, The Mormons. Please let me know if you think of one. His latest attack happened last night and he seems to think I am the whipping post for all his bad experiences with dissenting missionaries. He is assisted by Joe the King of the Luddites. You can see my posts to him by clicking my name … it takes you to my Intense Debate list of posts from Zionica
      - Dionesius3
        
        Trying to think of a name???
        
        Why not answer these truths???
        
        Are you afraid???
        
        How do you know when a Mormon is lying??
        
        ANY TIME THEY SPEAK!!!
        
        You say you believe the Bible "so far as it is correctly translated"
        
        Those are your words lying Mormon. You do not believe the Bible is ever "correctly" translated.
        And further more, you act as if the translation of scripture has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with trash moron doctrine.
        
        Mormons do not believe the Bible, they reinterpret the Bible based on their own trash scriptures and you are told over and over that ANYTIME the Bible disagrees with your moron Mormon doctrine then that portion of the Bible is corrupted and the book of morons, or doctrine and covens, or the pearl of great harlotry, is where you should look for the "truth"
        
        You offer lip service to the Bible, but when it comes down to it, your own trash takes preeminence over the Bible EVERYTIME!!!
        
        Now speak again so everyone reading these posts can see your lies for what they are.
        
        Tell me again how Mormons love the Bible, because you know and I know that the Bible means ABSOLUTELY nothing to Mormons. Except as a tool to deceive weak people into believing that Mormonism is a Christian religion.
        
        Mormons are not Christians!!!
        
        The god of Mormonism is NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.
        
        The God of the Bible affirms again and again that he is NOT A MAN..
        
        The moron Mormon god says he is a man and that all men may become a god.
        
        That is not the same God as what you find in the Bible.
        
        The moron Mormon god has sex with heavenly mother/s who bear "spirit children" who become the souls in babies born on earth.
        
        The God of the Bible does not have a wife, and does not need a wife to "create" the human soul.
        
        The god of moron Mormonism says you must wear holy underwear, loving called "g's" by moron Mormons. If you don't wear them everyday then you will not become a god.
        And they have special powers too.
        
        The God of the Bible has never and will never require such stupidity of his followers.
        
        Grow up for goodness sakes and recognize the VAST difference between these two beliefs.
      - DWoodPC
        
        Go Vlad!
      - DWoodPC
        
        You still haven't published your rail against conservative values that I saw you post and that I requested you unearth for the benefit of those who need to see my side of this story to which you refer here, bighoss! Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about either. When I come across it, if you don't stop your silliness, I will copy/paste it and put it on all your replies! I mean it.
    - keyboardshark
      
      Truth is found in the Bible, not a particular local congregation or established denomination. Some congregations or denominations may be very close to having a correct understanding of salvation, the nature of God, the origin of the universe, etc. but ultimately the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only source of truth. Anything that any church or denomination, whether it be Mormonism, Catholicism, Protestantism, or whatever, claims to be true can be tested by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
      - Curious
        
        Very true, Keyboardshark… we will know them by their fruits as Just very effectively pointed out.
  - Esteban Cafe
    
    Sir, I would counsel restraint here. How many "Christian" churches have you belonged to in your life? Right, a lot, just like me. To say "WE have the truth" when there are so many competing and differing versions of it is ludicrious–they aren't all right. We have a long way to go before we can make that claim stick. We appear to have a self-righteous streak that shames even the Mormons. Best to go easy here.
    - Vladimir
      
      It isn't self-righteous if it DOES come from God. That is really the only question that a person must haved answered. And only God can answer it and He will do it to the inidividual, personally. Mormons present what they have received from God. Others will accept or reject this and some will mock it as does bighoss, Despeville and others on this site. But the ONLY question still remains, does it or doesn't it come from God?
      - bighoss
        
        So–each Mormon has his or her God-a-Phone and gets direct revelation straight from that flesh and bone God of the Mormon Cult? And the Mormon so equipped can get God's kindly assistance on any troublesome point of doctrine? How very handy a way to get oneself assured!
      - Vladimir
        
        It's called prayer, bighoss. Try it, you'll like it.
      - DWoodPC
        
        I wonder did/do African tribal religions with there associated beliefs — most of which are not Christian — play a part in the LDS officialdom proclamations about their priesthood decisions? I know they fast and pray in order to prepare and make decisions that are so important as such callings to the priesthood, just as we are advised to do to make even "minor" decisions for ourselves
      - DWoodPC
        
        one predominating item I have noticed: from Joe, despe, dion, big hoss, even evermyrtle, millergroup2, Jeff & petros on this site (did I forget anyone) is the consuming efforts to force Mormons to self-examination… in the misguided belief that THEY truly understand the doctrine & covenants, the role of Joseph Smith, the purpose of protection needed versus the adversary, etc etc of the Mormons … while, at the same time — and this goes especially for joe, despe, dion – NEVER showing a shred of Christ's love in their diatribes. It is in the very least… hypocritical. If there is something to be learned, it can be learned ONLY by the Holy Spirit and I think Jeff intuitively has this quality — yes, I said JEFF — more so than any of these so-well-meaning sometimes self-righteous beyond belief "good" Christians. Mormons seem to think they must submit to these people and appeal to them for their admission into Christianity!!! I think it should be the other way around… they should appeal to the Mormons , because the Mormons have taken the lessons from Christ and learned how to apply them, yes, and under the proper authority… the authority that I can't explain. It is something only priesthood holders really understand. I want to say to the "Ask them. And when you ask them a question, be nice and listenl They have listened to you." but I know it will fall on deaf ears.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Hey DWood, in case your unaware your not in a Christian religion, your in a mind controlling cult called Mormonism. Which has about as much in common with Biblical Christianity as a lemon has in common with automobile.
        
        You don't love Christ, because you don't know Christ. You think he is the spirit brother of lucifer. And you think they both have the same daddy.
        And you believe that this heavenly daddy demands his followers to wear magical underwear.
        
        Your so funny, and so pathetic, that it makes me laugh and cry at the same time.
        
        Get a clue moron Mormon, and find the real God before its too late.
      - Jasmine
        
        bighoss…
        
        Since you asked – and yes, it is pretty handy : ) … a quote from Dallin H. Oaks
        Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Mormon Church)
        
        In the personal line we pray directly to our Heavenly Father, and He answers us by the channels He has established, without any mortal intermediary. We pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and He answers us through His Holy Spirit and in other ways. The mission of the Holy Ghost is to testify of the Father and the Son (see John 15:26; 2 Nephi 31:18; 3 Nephi 28:11), to guide us into truth (see John 14:26; 16:13), and to show us all things we should do (see 2 Nephi 32:5). This personal line of communication with our Heavenly Father through His Holy Spirit is the source of our testimony of truth, of our knowledge, and of our personal guidance from a loving Heavenly Father. It is an essential feature of His marvelous gospel plan, which allows each one of His children to receive a personal witness of its truth.
        
        On this personal line of communication with the Lord, our belief and practice is similar to that of those Christians who insist that human mediators between God and man are unnecessary because all have direct access to God under the principle Martin Luther espoused that is now known as “the priesthood of all believers.”
        
        5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. Moroni 10:5 (Book of Mormon)
        
        Doctrine & Covenants 121:46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.
        
        John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
      - bighoss
        
        Jasmine, you and other Mormons rely on John 14:26; and 16:13, you are mis-applying those scriptures. Those scriptures are the words of Jesus to his apostles, and are not to be considered as instructions to all believers down through time. Any honest reading of those passages in context will confirm this.
      - Dionesius3
        
        Heavenly farther is not god. He is a child's fairy tale deity. He has nothing whatsoever to do with the one true God of the Bible.
      - Jasmine
        
        Since you asked – and yes, it is pretty handy : ) … a quote from Dallin H. Oaks
        Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Mormon Church)
        
        In the personal line we pray directly to our Heavenly Father, and He answers us by the channels He has established, without any mortal intermediary. We pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and He answers us through His Holy Spirit and in other ways. The mission of the Holy Ghost is to testify of the Father and the Son (see John 15:26; 2 Nephi 31:18; 3 Nephi 28:11), to guide us into truth (see John 14:26; 16:13), and to show us all things we should do (see 2 Nephi 32:5). This personal line of communication with our Heavenly Father through His Holy Spirit is the source of our testimony of truth, of our knowledge, and of our personal guidance from a loving Heavenly Father. It is an essential feature of His marvelous gospel plan, which allows each one of His children to receive a personal witness of its truth.
        
        On this personal line of communication with the Lord, our belief and practice is similar to that of those Christians who insist that human mediators between God and man are unnecessary because all have direct access to God under the principle Martin Luther espoused that is now known as “the priesthood of all believers.”
        
        5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. Moroni 10:5 (Book of Mormon)
        
        Doctrine & Covenants 121:46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.
        
        John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Curious

They vote on values and morals and integrity.. all biblical principles.
Richard

Big Hoss,

If the details in your comment are true about the negatives of Mormonism – which I don't doubt by the way – why doesn't someone demand at an official level either a rebuttal or confirmation of the details from someone at LDS officialdom? I think it's about time that such things are brought to the surface so that everyone REALLY knows what Mormons stand for, or believe in, don't you agree? Enough of this beating about the bush!
- bighoss
  
  Mormon "officialdom" has spoken, in many of the documents I have quoted from. All the necessary information already
  has been "brought to the surface." The Mormons left a complete paper trail of their shifting, morphing doctrines on the "mark of Cain" and blacks in (after being out of) the priesthood. Write the LDS Church and ask them to explain whatever might not be evident to you in whatever sources you might possess, but don't expect any better "answers" than those posted here from official Mormon sources. Their address is
  
  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
  Church Office Building
  50 E. North Temple, Salt Lake City, Utah
- LDS
  
  Richard,
  
  You can find plenty of information on lds.org and mormon.org and by reading the LDS Standard Works: The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. Fast and pray ~ seek the Spirit and you will find the truth. I believe that it is the true church of Jesus Christ. I have a testimony that He is indeed the Son of God, our Saviour and Redeemer. By His Mercy and Atonement we are granted eternal life ~ joint-heirs with Him in our Father's kingdom.
  - Truth
    
    There is so much out there on the church that is free for the reading. If anti-mormons spent as much time studying the actual truth of the church instead of the twisted, out of context bits that they use to mislead others, their eyes would be opened.
    
    Satan is real and actively seeks to destroy the work of the Lord and His kingdom on earth. I got news for him, he can lie, spit and sputter, but it ain't gonna do any good. I have read the end of The Book.
  - bighoss
    
    Trouble is, Richard, that much of Mormon doctrine is NOT found in those LDS Standard Works so highly regarded by LDS. The dictums of various Mormon "Prophets," apart from the "Standard Works," establish much of the doctrinal basis of Mormonism. Your "testimony," I would presume, is the "burning in the bosom" or "knowing in your heart" that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. As with other Mormons, when you can not really defend your heresies, you fall back on that kind of emotion-based claim I have encountered the same old lame escapist dodge from several sets of fuzzy-cheeked Mormon "elders" who called upon me to 'splain their religion and found themselves involved with someone who knew things about Mormonism that their Bishops and other mentors had never told them about.
    - Vladimir
      
      Again, bighoss, you must guess about what is official "Mormon Doctrine" because you just don't know what it is. But it's more fun to be your own authority and you don't have to worry about being accurate. You'd be better off relying on honest research you do yourself from sources that haven't been deceiving you of late.
    - Curious
      
      I wonder, if you were not so worried about people studying the Standard Works, you would not be so discouraging about their studying these scriptures and finding out for themselves the truth about the LDS church. Perhaps there is something there that does 'testify' that the Book of Mormon is true and that there are indeed, modern day prophets. I would encourage people to find out for themselves… this is, at least for now, not a dictatorship.
Laksman

A man-made religous cult like Mormonism or LDS, a belief held by the next presidential hopeful Mitt Romney, should never be used as a political stunt to lure naive voters to cast their valuable votes to win this election for him. Mitt Romney is NOT A TRUE BELIEVER OF THE Lord Jesus Chist. Is he the aniti- Christ predicted in the Bible, the Holy Scriptures? The Bible clearly speaks about such imposters and unbelievers in the last days. As much as gay relationships are anti-Christ, Mormonism is anti God /Christ. These are the end times or the last days the Bible speaks of. No one knows the
time or the hour Christ will return to judge the world. Are the supporters of gay relationships and the religous cult Motmonists ready to give an account of how they lived in this world?
- SZQ
  
  In all of my research & studies I have found ALL religions to be man-made. And I tend to doubt there is a Bible with the actual true and original words of God. Only man's interpretations of Gods words.
  
  It appears that you do not know much about Latter-Day-Saints. They are Christian & they read & teach from the Bible along with the Book of Mormon. They always end their prayers with "And we ask these things in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
  
  Don't believe everyting you hear.
- Xman3
  
  Obama fits the "anti-Christ predicted in the Bible", since you brought up the subject of anti-Christ. Explain how Obama has gotten away with all of the evils and lies he has committed over the past 4 plus years of his candidacy for President and President? What has he done good for America? Nothing, he is evil and a radical Muslim sleeper, who desires to ruin America, and is not a Christian, by any stretch of the imagination.
  
  All of this Mormon bashing at this site is unproductive and deceiving. Rather explain who Obama is and what he stands for. You have seen what Obama, his Administration, most elected Democrats and the Democratic National Committe has done the past 3 1/2 years. That should be the real issue. I would question anyone who claims to be Christian and then votes for Obama (or most any Democrat or RINO).
  - Truth
    
    'Evil triumphs when good men do nothing'… is how
ssongtan

Lasman. You are so full of crap you only display your total ignorance by your statement. LDS members all worship from the same Bible you do, if you actually do. Every word in the Book of Mormon is supported by biblical scriptures. As both an LDS and a member of the United Church of Christ I truly resent your bashing. Ignorance is not bliss. It merely shows the level of your lack of education.
- Truth
  
  There is so much out there on the church that is free for the reading. If anti-mormons spent as much time studying the actual truth of the church instead of the twisted, out of context bits that they use to mislead others, their eyes would be opened.
  
  Satan is real and actively seeks to destroy the work of the Lord and His kingdom on earth. I got news for him, he can lie, spit and sputter, but it ain't gonna do any good. I have read the end of The Book.
  - DWoodPC
    
    Bravo Truth
    I agree
    
    I (heart) Mormons
- bighoss
  
  Mormon doctrine teaches that all of earth's inhabitants were born in the spirit world before becoming candidates for earth mortality and that God and His plural wives produced those spirit children in the same manner as it happens in mortality. That is to say by way of sexual intercourse. The doctrine also teaches that “worthy” males and females will inherit the “Celestial Kingdom” (where God dwells) and become gods and goddesses to create worlds and fill them with people in the same manner as God and his predecessors have.
  
  Show, us, ssongtan, just where biblical scriptures support such bizarre notions as these, which are not taught in either the Book of Mormon or the Bible.
  - Vladimir
    
    Bighoss, if you had your way, God would be muzzled and no further revelation would be forthcoming. As you know, we don't always get our way and God is not muzzled. Get over it.
  - DWoodPC
    
    BIGHOSS! You are rude as usual and have no authority … with Mormons or anyone. You are cheap and vulgar. Also, you haven't the slightest idea of Mormon beliefs. And your unjust use of bathroom humor is unbecoming of this site or any place. Your attempt at discrediting the exceptional dignity of these good people will be to your own detriment when you realize what you are doing.
- bighoss
  
  Tell us, also, ssongtan, how can you reconcile the Mormon doctrine of "progression" with what the Bible says in Isaiah 43:10, namely, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"? (See Isaiah 43:10).
- Jim
  
  JOSEPH SMITH WAS A POLYGAMIST AND A REPROBATE WHO GAVE THE WORLD The Book of Mormon. The BIBLE, the true WORD OF GOD, is rife with scriptures that directly warn and condemn "other testimonies of Jesus Christ" even if they come from "angels"; ie as in "moroni". It is interesting that the word "moron" is contained in the name "moroni". Kinda makes one wonder!
  - curious
    
    bighoss Is that you? lol
    - bighoss
      
      You will know when I am posting. I use only one name here and I am not given to the inordinate use of CAPS.
      Also, unlike Jim, above, I provide references to official Mormon sources to substantiate what I claim. There is plenty of information available about Joseph Smith's polygamy and other miscreant behavior. Too bad Jim was too lazy to serve up any of that information. I enjoy providing the Mormon source references because it drives the Mormon apologists up the wall. They wiggle and squirm in interesting ways to avoid coming to terms with the reality of the sordid history and bizarre doctrines of their cultic belief system.
      - Despeville
        
        Indeed and they do case point Vlad the Mad who after quoting to him from his Mormon Primary sources will proceed to attempt to discuss carbon footprints…
      - Vladimir
        
        Wrong again, Bighoss. You do not provide references to official Mormon sources. You only think you do, because you are deceived by the anti's. There is no way for you to know because you refuse to consult what you call "Mormon propaganda sources" or official church sources. Willful ignorance has been your hallmark of late.
      - bighoss
        
        Give it up, Vlad. I have extensively quoted from numerous Mormon "Apostles" and "Prophets," including even Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I have quoted from pronouncements of these luminaries intended to serve as instruction to the whole Mormon Cult. You can't get any more official that THAT, Vlad. Your pitiful efforts to discredit me with vague and generalized critiques just don't hold up under examination. I have nailed you and other Mormons to the wall with the truth as revealed in Mormon history, Mormon documents, and Mormon doctrine. You are wiggling and squirming but you can't deal honestly with the TRUTH.
      - bighoss
        
        Here is an excerpt from a Mormon hymn that is available from the official LDS web site,
        http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmusicPlayer/…
        
        The hymn, "If You Could Hie To Kolob" obviously reflects the polytheism doctrine of the LDS Cult in that it repeatedly refers to "Gods." For those not familiar with "Koplob," it is a an imaginary star regarded by Mormons as the star closest to God. This bit of fiction is perpetrated in chapter 3 of the fraudulent "Book of Abraham," one of the standard Mormon pseudo scriptures.
        
        1. If you could hie to Kolob
        In the twinkling of an eye,
        And then continue onward
        With that same speed to fly,
        Do you think that you could ever,
        Through all eternity,
        Find out the generation
        Where Gods began to be?
        
        2. Or see the grand beginning,
        Where space did not extend?
        Or view the last creation,
        Where Gods and matter end?
        Methinks the Spirit whispers,
        "No man has found 'pure space,'
        Nor seen the outside curtains,
        Where nothing has a place."
        
        Horrors! Horrendously Heretical Hymns!!
        
        "Where Gods began to be"??!! "Where Gods and Matter end?'?!!
        
        Vlad, the God of the Bible is an eternal being without beginning or end. But one might suppose that the Mormon "Gods" would be different, since there is so much else of Mormonism that is directly contrary to what the Bible teaches.
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
    
    Abraham among many others in the bible was also a polygamist. He also lied about his wife being his sister.
    - Curious
      
      Prophets have never been perfect, if you have read the scriptures. They can falter like any man and they can be influenced incorrectly by culture and circumstances many times – they are human. : ) God uses imperfect vessels to do His work – but, inspired scripture is from the mouth of God and should be respected as such.
- Laksman
  
  I surely think your crap is worse than all the Mormons put together. If you have an iota of intelligence you should know that the LDS members DO NOT worship from the Christian Bible of the Lord Jesus Christ. I surely DO NOT worship from the Bible you and LDS members worship.It is an abomination to use the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to call your cult worship "the church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints. Get it into your head if you please, that I know very well my Christian Bible than your cult worship. Your ignorance shows when you say "every word in the Book of Mormon is supported by biblical scriptures". It is you who lacks any education and full of ignorance for not having read and understand the true Bible of the Lord Jesus Christ, You desrve to be bashed because of your lack of knowledge and ignorance of the Christian Bible. The day you get out of your cult worship and start a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, His truth will set you free.
  - Just
    
    Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible.. Laksman. Which version do you use?
- Dionesius3
  
  You are a fool!!!!
  
  The god of moron Mormonism has sex with his wife/wives and takes craps in a holy toilet!!!
  
  Show me one single verse from the Bible that confirms that steaming pile of horse manure!!!
  
  Come on song, show me just one verse from the Bible!
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
    
    The god of the bible also wrestles with Jacob, which is extremely humorous. Especially since god could not beat Jacob. so he had to cheat to get Jacob to stop. (Really, you consider him all powerful?)
    
    "So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man."
    
    Genesis 32:24-25
Magniflux2

After you folks find the "perfect" candidate to run for president of thr " perfect" country, and then you join that entity, it will no longer be perfect. We are humans. Churches are made up of humans. Sounds to me like all those in this discussion are doing a good job of weighing the pros & cons to make intelligent choices. That is encouraging. All of you have kept your cool & had a great and informative (at least to me) discussion. What we do agree upon is of utmost importance: get the socialist imposter out of our house asap. God bless you each one for standing up for your convictions.
Laksman

LDS, adding the Holy Christian Bible to the Book of Mormon is blasphamous. Read Revelation 22:18 " I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this Book: IF ANYONE ADDS ANYTHING TO THEM, GOD WILL ADD TO HIM THE PLAGUES DESCRIBED IN THIS BOOK. VS.19 AND IF ANYONE TAKES WORDS AWAY FROM THIS BOOK OF PROPHECY, GOD WILL TAKE AWAY FROM HIM HIS SHARE IN THE TREE OF LIFEAND IN THE HOLY CITY, WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN THIS BOOK"
- Vladimir
  
  No one is adding to "this book of Prophecy", the Book of Revelations. Are you confusing the Book of Revelations with the whole Bible? There is no prohibition on God sending more revelations, there is the only the prohibition on people added or subtracting from the Book of Revelation.
  - bighoss
    
    You are correct, Vlad in that the warning in Revelation is a specific reference to those things written in that book alone.
    But the fact that there are not similar warnings in every book of the Bible does not make it scriptural to claim personal direct revelation as you and other Mormons do, especially when your doctrines run 180 degrees counter to the teachings of the Bible.
    
    Not also that the name of the Book is Revelation (singular).
    - bighoss
      
      Correction: "Note" also
      - DWoodPC
        
        Oops, see how human transcribers can make mistakes… happens all the time. : ) Happened in the olden days. too.
        
        Pseudo-Christians hate the Mormons because they feel threatened by the truth of the inconsistencies in the Holy Bible that are clarified with regard to what the scriptures say that Christ and God want for us… they like to harp on absurdities and cannot see positives in anything anyway. I feel empathy for them because they too are God's children.
        
        I (heart) Mormons
    - Truth
      
      Rev 22:18 is, I believe, one of the most misunderstood and misused verses in the Bible. You can find this same warning from prophets as they speak in numerous places throughout the Bible. Another example:
      
      Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you
      
      God is not dead – the gifts of revelation have not ceased – the LDS church is the true living church of Jesus Christ.
- DWoodPC
  
  No One Added Within The Book Of Rev!!!
  
  I (HEART) MORMONS. The truth (not made up lies) makes one free!
bighoss

I know of nothing that I have posted that would lead you to think that I am a black man. I am not. I am a Caucasian mongerel hoss of German, French, and English derivation!
Xman3

I saw a post that said: "Vote for the Mormon, not the lying Moron". Sounds like good advice!
- bighoss
  
  Sounds more like a redneck failed attempt at cuteness.
  - DWoodPC
    
    bighoss! are you having trouble with rednecks?
    You are also having trouble with the French, Irish, English, Swiss, Norwegian and Italian… I know there are others
    
    I (heart) Mormons
bighoss

So now you introduce immigration issues and politics into a discussion of Mormon doctrines. You are truly desperate to divert from the subject, DWood.
bighoss

Nope–it is all a part of your cowardly retreat from any concept of honest argumentation, discussion, and debate. You are bidding fair to win the bighoss Weasel of the Month award for your impotent and deceitful performance on this topic.
Curious

DWoodPC – if I am not mistaken … it is probably because they have the largest data base as far an ancestry and genealogy available.
DWoodPC

I (heart) Mormons, Christians and whatever Jeff is.
The obnoxious are dis(heart)ening and not worthy of mentioning.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ JWDixon66
  
  Ahem, Atheist here, your attempts to change that notwithstanding.
  - DWoodPC
    
    I stand corrected
Vladimir

I thought you might like to see this at the top level, Dion

Your rants against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Dionesius3, reveal a lot about you personally. For instance, you have a lot of hangups about sex. You think it is something dirty, unbecoming, shocking, unclean, smelly and beneath someone of righteousness. Well, get over it, because your God ordained it as the means for procreation and who are you to second guess Him?

You have great problems with your father. The thought of such a relationship with your God is repulsive to you. Well, get over it, because your God describes himself in terms of His relationship with you, Father to son.

You have a lot of personal hangups and your reviling of the church borders on the pathetic. You act like a small child so angry with something he cannot understand that he strikes out in utter frustration trying to hurt but only exposing his immaturity and ignorance.
- DWoodPC
  
  I regret that I have but one thumbs up to give Vlad!!!
DWoodPC

I (heart) Mormons, Christians and an Atheist (because that is what Jeff is)
The obnoxious are dis(heart)ening and not worthy of mentioning.