Atheist Group Forces City to Remove Cross From Logo

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), based in Wisconsin, has claimed a victory in its case against the city of Steubenville in eastern Ohio after officials agreed to drop religious symbols from the community's official logo.

The Steubenville logo, which had been designed by local businessman Mark Nelson in 2011, featured the cross from Franciscan University's Christ the King Chapel and historic landmarks like Fort Steuben and the Veterans' Memorial Bridge.

"Steubenville is a theocracy and is a Christian city where non-Christians or nonbelievers are not favored citizens," FFRF's chief spokesman, Annie Laurie Gaylor, had said of the logo. She insisted that "the city may not depict the university chapel and cross because to do so places the city's imprimatur behind Christianity."

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Mexseiko

They should've renamed the city Stupidville while they're at it.
Bustd

Good LORD!
Mike from Colorado

We, Christians better stand-up before our Liberties are completely stripped away by the politically correct politicians. The Government does not have Supreme authority, HE does.
- Ruth #
  
  Mike, I will also agree with You…The Lord will have his judgement, And it IS coming SOONER than we think ! I live in Canton now, but my family is from the Barnesville and Cadiz area of Ohio, just up the road about 30 miles from Stubenville…Then has ALWAYS been a strong Bible Belt area…And the people of this area are in real trouble if they don't take a stand soon for their Christian beliefs….These liberl vultures will walk right in and systematically take down every cross in the area if they let them…WAKE UP AMERICA ! Shame On YOU Stubenville ….You just disgraced all your founders who made the ultimate sacrifice in the Name of the Lord that your city could have ever existed All these years….
- Chris
  
  What a load of rubbish. Nobody is stripping away your liberties. They want you stop taking other peoples liberties away. Stop stuffing your irrelevant and worthless religions down other peoples throats.
  - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
    
    How is having a cross on a city logo "taking other people's liberty away", Chris? That's utter nonsense. The cross is part of the city's landscape.
    - Evermyrtle
      
      The Cross is all liberals problem. It exudes SUCH power and effects them so, that they can think of nothing that will stop this power, (in their minds,) but to destroy source of power, the cross.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        We could not care less about the cross, but it does not belong on government buildings. Build all the churches with crosses you like. Place as many crosses on your home as it can bear.
    - Evermyrtle
      
      The Cross in itself has no power , but somehow, in a way that t I cannot explain, it somehow sort of bewitches antichrist people, they feel they must get rid of it, they must destroy it.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        It is what the cross represents that liberals hate. They hate the idea of the all-powerful God of the Bible who declares that mankind is utterly sinful and is under God's judgement. They want to be the captain of their own destiny and do not like the idea that God has a claim on their life, nor are they about to humble themselves before God and beg for His mercy.
        
        They also believe that all religions are equally valid (or equally false), so they are even more offended when the Bible comes along and declares that it alone is the only source of truth. Unless God intervenes in their life, they will not have "this Man" to reign over their lives (Luke 19:14) and will die in their sins (John 8:24).
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You are so right, but there seems to be something about it that drives them "Rabid" in a way that is unbelievable, if you did not know it is true. They claim they do not believe what it stands for, yet only a picture of it drives them into a frenzy.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Key, I agree, by itself it does not take away liberty, but it does show that the city is promoting one religion over another. If the city had a Muslim symbol, I doubt you would be happy to leave it alone.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        But a Muslim symbol is not characteristic of the skyline of the city. The city logo is designed to portray common sights one might encounter in the city, including the chapel and historic landmarks. Muslims symbols would be harder to find than hen's teeth, I'll wager.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        But if it was on the city logo, you would notice it. And not be pleased. Would you object to a city logo with a Muslim symbol? It is a simple yes or no question.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Yes i would object because Muslim symbols are not a common feature of the city skyline. You can't place something on the city logo that is not representative of the common sights you would see in the city. It is circular reasoning to say that by placing a Muslim symbol on the logo that it then would then be a common sight. No, it would only be placed there in the first place if it were already a common sight.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You would object because it would be a non Christian religious symbol. The rest of your comment is simply absurd.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        No, it is not absurd. You are simply upset that I have found a logical basis for my opinion. Muslim religious symbols are not a common feature of American cities, and thus it would be illogical to include them on a city logo.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Logical? Hardly. The constitution is not based on what is popular. It is based on what the law allows. And religious symbols on government property is not legal.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Funny how it was never a problem for 200 years, including the period where those who actually wrote the Constitution, and should know what it meant, lived. Religious symbols on government property, especially at the local level, have nothing to do with Congress making any laws, which is what the First Amendment forbids.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It rarely is seen as a problem when the majority believes it to be ok. However, just because many Christians believed it be acceptable, did not ever make it legal.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        No, just because atheists now believe it to be unacceptable, does not make it illegal. It is a Constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion. The only thing that is specified as illegal is Congress making a law that would hinder this freedom.
        
        Also, let me ask you this: What harm (and being offended does not count as harm) would occur to someone (who does not believe in the Bible) by seeing a cross on a city logo? If you think it is illegal, you should be able to show actual harm that would come to such an individual.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is not a matter of atheists believing it to be illegal. The courts rule that it is as well. And the judges that sit on these courts are mostly Christians. And your comment is not accurate. They cannot endorse one religion over another either.
        
        Specific harm does not have to occur in order for an action to be illegal. Driving 5 miles over the speed limit is illegal, but it is unlikely to cause specific harm. However, making any group of people feel unwelcome can certainly cause harm. And that feeling can apply to other religious groups as well as atheists.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        The courts have effectively annulled the First Amendment by any such ruling. Think it's just my opinion? Let's see what Chief Justice Rehnquist had to say about the ruling:
        
        " Chief Justice William Rehnquist said: "there is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation. … The wall of separation between church and state is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging, and it should be frankly and explicitly abandoned. …
        
        History must judge whether it was the Father of our country, Washington, plus the majority of the House of Representatives and the Senate who were correct in their understanding of the First Amendment, or whether it is a majority of the Court today." Justice Byron White said he completely agreed, and therefore they should re-look at all of the cases dealing with the matter of separation of church and state and deal with them all over again in the light of what was intended."
        http://churchvstate.blogspot.com/2007/10/drafts-of-first-amendment.html
        
        It is pure speculation to say that the judges who arrived at this "enlightened" position were Christians.
        
        Driving over the speed limit could certainly result in harm if a crash occurred. Being "offended' or feeling "unwelcome" does not cause any such harm or potential harm. I could just as easily say that I am offended if they remove the cross from the city logo, and using your logic, I would then have the same basis to bring a lawsuit. The courts would become paralyzed by a never-ending flood of cases by persons who were "offended" by one thing or another or felt unwelcome.
        
        I would suggest that we all act like adults and quit running to the courts to reverse every perceived slight. Of course we know the real motivation behind these lawsuits is not the slight, but to use their supposed feeling of "offense" to censor ideas they don't agree with.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Given that the founders discussed the separation, it is silly to claim there is no foundation. For there to be no foundation, there would have been no mention of this separation.
        
        You can legally drive 5 miles under the speed limit and be involved in a crash. But the likelihood is just the same as driving 5 miles over.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Where did the founders "discuss the separation"? A private letter by Jefferson does not constitute a 'discussion' among the writers of the Constitution. If 'separation' was what they intended, then why was that language not used in the First Amendment?
        
        If they actually did believe in a separation, they certainly did not practice it. Jefferson himself attended church services in the Capitol Building before, during and after his Presidency, even attending while he penned the now infamous letter. It is obvious from their actual practices that they did not believe in the kind of separation that has been foisted on the public by the courts.
        
        Virtually every colonial charter, state constitution, and other historical documents during 375 years of American history contains declarations and evidences of the Christian faith:
        
        http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/NoKingbutKingJesus.doc
        
        For example:
        
        "Constitution of the State of
        Tennessee (1796), stated:
        
        Article VIII, Section II. No person who denies the being of God, or
        a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil
        department of this State. [pp.580-581]
        
        John Jay (1745-1829), was the
        first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, having been appointed
        by President George Washington. He was a
        Founding Father, a member of the First and Second
        Continental Congresses… He was very instrumental in causing the Constitution to
        be ratified by writing the Federalist Papers, along with James Madison and
        Alexander Hamilton.
        
        On October 12, 1816, John Jay
        admonished:
        
        Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is
        the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select
        and prefer Christians for their rulers. [p.318] [emphasis added]"
        
        "Congress of the United States of America (1822), ratified
        in both the House and Senate of the United States, along with Great Britain and
        Ireland, the Convention for Indemnity
        under Award of Emperor of Russia as to the True Construction of the First
        Article of the Treaty of December 24, 1814.
        It begins with these words:
        
        In the name of
        the Most Holy and Indivisible Trinity.
        [pp.167-168]
        
        "Congress of the United States
        of America (March 27, 1854), receives the report of
        
        Mr. Meacham of the House
        Committee on the Judiciary:
        
        What is an establishment of religion? It must have a creed, defining
        what a man must believe; it must have rites and ordinances, which believers
        must observe; it must have ministers of defined qualification, to teach the
        doctrines and administer the rites; it must have tests for the submissive and
        penalties for the non-conformist. There
        never was as established religion without all these…
        
        At the
        adoption of the Constitution… every State… provided as regularly for the
        support of the Church as for the support of the Government… [emphasis
        added]
        
        Down to the
        Revolution, every colony did sustain religion in some form. It was deemed
        peculiarly proper that the religion of liberty should be upheld by a free
        people.
        
        Had the
        people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against
        Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. [emphasis added]
        
        At the
        time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal
        sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect
        [denomination]. Any attempt to level and discard all religion would have been
        viewed with universal indignation. The object was not to substitute
        Judaism or Mohammedism,
        or infidelity, but to prevent rivalry among the [Christian] sects to the
        exclusion of others. [emphasis added]
        
        It
        [Christianity] must be considered as the foundation on which the whole
        structure rests. Laws will not have permanence or power without the sanction of religious
        sentiment, — without a firm belief that
        there is a Power above us that will reward our virtues and punish our
        vices. [emphasis added]
        
        In this age there can be no substitute for
        Christianity; that, in
        its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely
        for the purity and permanence of free institutions. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they
        expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. There is a great and very prevalent
        error on this subject in the opinion that those who organized this Government
        did not legislate on religion. [emphasis added] [pp.169-170]"
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        James Madison
        (1751-1836; principal author, U. S. Constitution and Bill of Rights; 4th U.S. President, 1809-1817
        
        "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -James Madison
        
        The only ultimate protection for religious liberty in a country like ours, Madison pointed out–echoing Jefferson;–is public opinion: a firm and pervading opinion that the First Amendment works. "Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance." (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 56. Madison's words, according to Gaustad, are from his letter of 10 July 1822 to Edward Livingston.)
        
        At age eighty-one [therefore, in 1832?], both looking back at the American experience and looking forward with vision sharpened by practical experience, Madison summed up his views of church and state relations in a letter to a "Reverend Adams": "I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency of a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespass on its legal rights by others." (Robert L. Maddox, Separation of Church and State: Guarantor of Religious Freedom, New York: Crossroad, 1987, p. 39.)
        
        Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state not because they are beneath the interests of the state, but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state. (Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773, as quoted by Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 7.)
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        It is very clear that they were referring to a state-sponsored church, not the modern concept of obliterating all traces of religion from government.
      - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
        
        No, that is merely what you want it to mean. Madison was very specific that there needs to be a line drawn between government and religion. Madison admits it is difficult to completely avoid it, but that it is best to have a separation. Let me re-post a very telling section.
        
        "I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency of a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespass on its legal rights by others."
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        You are missing what he said: "…an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever,…"
        
        In other words, the government is not to interfere in any way with the ability of the people to express their religion freely. That is not the same as "separation of church and state". He was not arguing that the government be protected from religious expression, which is the meaning modern liberals want to give it.
      - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
        
        And when the government shows preference for one religion over another it is interfering.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        No, when it disallows religious symbols simply because they are on government property, that is interference.
      - Esther
        
        Jeffrey: It seems like in Key's example from the 1930's friezes on the SC building, that the government is showing 50% preference for Greek pagan gods, the Greek god Zeus and the Roman goddess of wisdom, Minerva.
        
        Does this mean to reflect the founding of our Republic as well as does Christian influence? I wish you would put this in perspective for me. The problem gets knottier at each turn.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Then why are they there, and have been for hundreds of years?
        
        "When the Supreme Court justices consider whether the Ten Commandments should be displayed on government property, they will do so under the watchful eyes of Moses.Chris RossiMoses appears on the Supreme Court building's east side holding tablets in a pediment designed by Cass Gilbert and Hermon MacNeil in 1932-34.The Jewish lawgiver is depicted several times in the stone and marble edifice that is the Supreme Court building, and so are the Ten Commandments. In sculpture, Moses sits as the prominent figure atop the building's east side, holding two tablets representing the Ten Commandments. And on the wall directly behind the chief justice's chair, an allegorical "Majesty of Law" places his muscular left arm on a tablet depicting the Roman numerals I through X."
        http://www.christianindex.org/1087.article
      - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
        
        As I have stated many times, people are not perfect. However, in this case, the Supreme Court building simply does not have Moses. It is a number of people, including those from other religions and cultures to represent aspects of lawgivers from the past. It is not giving a preference to the Judeo-Christian religion.
        
        http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        You apparently didn't read the rest of the article:
        
        "The Capitol building, the home of Congress, is also filled with religion-related displays.
        The words "Jesus Christ" appear upside-down on an open Bible in a painting in the Capitol Rotunda, the room where President Reagan lay in state last summer. In that same painting, called "Embarkation of the Pilgrims," the words "God with us" appear in the upper left corner.
        Another rotunda painting depicts the baptism of Pocahontas and another contains a cross.
        Many of the figures in Statuary Hall are outspoken Christians such as Washington state's missionary Marcus Whitman and Jason Lee of Oregon.
        U.S. Supreme CourtSculpted in the early 1930s, the east wall frieze behind and above the Supreme Court bench shows the allegorical "Majest of Law" resting his arm on a tablet that is, depending on the source, either the Bill of Rights or the Ten Commandments.
        In the House of Represen-tatives chamber, a bas-relief sculpture of Moses faces the House speaker's chair. The other 22 bas-relief faces are profiles, looking toward Moses in the center. "In God We Trust" is inscribed above the door to the Senate and behind the Speaker of the House's chair."
        
        http://www.christianindex.org/1087.article
      - Esther
        
        Key: When I asked you to point out what symbols you are talking about, you sent me the link to the 1930s friezes around the SC building:
        
        Your answer now seems to evade this point, ergo:
        
        Jeff said, "The constitution is not based on what is popular. It is based on what the law allows. And religious symbols on government property is not legal."
        
        Key said: "Then why are they there, and have been for hundreds of years?"
        
        I make the same request again: please tell me what symbols are you talking about?
        
        Frankly, given all what the dialogue amongst the various people in the news in the Republic at that early time, and yes, the war with Tripoli, I can see why Christian references were avoided. The latter issue is all what I have been talking about this whole time but didn't know it until I saw the conversation between you and Jeff.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        The link above was more than the 1930's friezes. Please read further. If that was not enough, try this web page:
        
        http://dakotavoice.com/2010/09/americas-christian-heritage-in-the-u-s-capitol/
      - Esther
        
        I found this Key:
        http://www.dakotavoice.com/2007/07/the-us-constitution-not-so-secular/
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Good article, Esther. Even though the Constitution is in general a secular document, since it is legal document, this shows that there are still references to God sprinkled about in it. Typically we would not expect ordinary legal documents to reference God, so the fact that there are some references in the Constitution lends credence to the historical fact that the USA was founded primarily by men who had a belief (or at least a respect for) the Bible as the Word of God.
      - Esther
        
        I thought you would appreciate that point of view, having read your opinion several times.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        You can call it my "opinion" if you wish, but it is an 'opinion' based on historical facts. At any rate, thanks for the link.
      - Esther
        
        You're welcome. I respect your beliefs Key and I don't mean to diminish them in any way, as no one person should diminish another's. I sent the link to you because it is pointing out historical fact, in fact. I meant "opinion" in the legal sense of the term. I have an attorney in the family,is where that comes from, I guess. Yes it is a recognition that others have a different opinion, in terms of debate, but I guess in normal language I should have said your stance? That may get me deeper in trouble. I am trying to be not judgmental of the side of the issue you take, In other words, I know the historical point of view you take. I didn't mean it in any argumentative way, is the point. .
    - Mary Wood
      
      Nothing you will do will change the attitude about the cross, and as far as that goes Chis P is mild compared to the rabid people who want to embed sharia law … taking the cross down is not appeasement to the enemy, it CAN BE a recognition of a "separation of church and state" In fact those who want to die and go to the virgins, will like you all the more if you leave it up. They want to see you incite those who do not hold to your faith.They are looking for a fight. We need to distinguish to the enemy that the Law of the land is in place, that they must abandon their "more worthy" compassion and understand here in the U.S.A. we have "more worthy" LAW and not "mere" law. I think anyone who thinks that compassion should rule over law should be blocked at the border. but I won't hold my breath. As an aside, do you know some Christians here in the U.S.A. do NOT represent Jesus with a cross, because they know he lives and though they believe what he did on the cross, and remember his atonement once a week in sacrament meeting? The cross is too sacred to them to be displayed, besides. : )
  - Evermyrtle
    
    You are the load that you are referring to.
  - Dave
    
    Chris how about you act on your own request? Your the one who pushing thier belief down other people throat. In fact according to supreme court dulling your belief in no god is in fact a religion and that people like yourself are the ones forcing your religion on other!!!
  - James C. Harrison
    
    Aren't you going a bit overboard about stuffing anything down peoples throats? It's a bit nit picky for you and that infidel group to get your underwear in a bunch over an almost invisible cross on a city skyline symbol. Deep down inside, you are afraid of anything that reminds you of God. Well you can run, but you can't hide. If you live to be a hundred, that day is still coming! What will you say in that blog?
  - steve
    
    i am not overly relegious,but i believe in god.jesus is my lord and savior. i dont have to see god to know HE exsists.i bet that if you have ever gotten into a situation where it looked like there was no way out,you said, GOD,please help me. theres an old saying from world war two. " there are no athiests in foxholes."
    - http://www.facebook.com/Nutz4Cubbies Marcy A. Mathis-Baryl
      
      " there are no athiests in foxholes." I love it Steve :)
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      I bet you are wrong. My son was hit by a car six years ago while riding his bike. The doctors worked for hours to stabilize him. Not once did I pray to any gods for help.
      
      Here is a website of actual military people who are atheists. Once again, you are wrong.
      http://www.militaryatheists.org/expaif.html/
  - Mary Wood
    
    tsk tsk… you are trying to do the same… doesn't YOUR country need your attention now, Chris P?
- KatieT
  
  Ronald Reagan had it right, just look around at what this country has become. God's judgement is upon us…..We have pushed God out of everything, why should be be there for us? We need to be praying daily for God to RE-BLESS AMERICA. Reagan said: If we ever forget we are one nation under God, we will be a nation gone under. Just look around, look at the economy, look at the moral compass. Political Correctness is causing serious issues in this country and is destroying our freedoms which are being used against us in our own country. God Bless You All!!
DockyWocky

All they had to do was put a red star or a quarter moon on top of the bridge tower and the atheists would have had to spend Soros' money somewhere else.
angel

I agree with you Mike. He will hand out the judgements!
32eagle

lawyerism is what it is- court power-if it was me I would not listen to their threats and keep on with the symbol-athiest crybabies are as bad as the homosexuals-they will not be happy until they make a spectacle of theirselves-and for that they should be over-joyed because they are on display to christians as a bad example of human rights
- Chris P
  
  Yes like my Christian renter who trashed my freaking house and essentially stole the deposit.
  
  You are the deniers of rights.
  - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
    
    How do you know your renter was Christian, Chris P? Because there was a Bible in the house? Christians do not trash houses and steal deposits. Sounds like another one of your many attempts to bash Christians as a whole based on the actions of an individual that you conveniently label as 'Christian', when you don't have a clue as to what a Christian even is. Methinks it is you who is attempting to deny the free speech rights of those whose beliefs differ from yours.
    - Mary Wood
      
      Chris P is British and doesn't want to clean up his own back yard, he likes it better where Shariah law hasn't fully incorporated.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    Are you a human or are one of Satan's angels that was cast out of heaven when he was thrown out
  - fliteking
    
    I bet it was 'trashed' when the moved in. Roach Motel maybe.
  - Old Observer
    
    Not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is–and that's probably what you encountered. I'm sorry that happened to you. But I can tell you about 3 different occasions when I thought I was "buying" a house from the owners, only to have them change their minds and evict me. The last one was a woman who turned out to be gay–she upped the purchase price after I had invested over 38,000, she had redone her mortgage on the place, having the bank take into consideration the landscaping, new carpet, and new appliances I had put in. And when all was said and done, she'd had someone come in when I was at work and take my personal papers–and the "copies" she had—had changed the $5000.00 down to a non-refundable deposit. We had done a lease option–but instead of percentages, everything I had paid her had become rent. The bottom line? She had taken a gay partner, who was the dominant one–and at her urging, wanted to take the house back. They gave me less than a month to vacate–and with the way the paperwork had been changed, I had no recourse-I don't hate her—or the others–I just regret that it took me 3 times to realize that buying directly from an owner is bad business. And I left each place cleaner and in better shape that I found them. Also, have had bad experience with renters–again, coincidentally, 2 lesbians. They piled dirt in the middle of the living room carpet. placed candles on it–had chickens running in and out–as they worshipped Satan. i think I have more reason to hate than you–but i don't.
  - Susan Burritt
    
    Some call themselves christians, but they are not! You can't label all, because of one.
    - Evermyrtle
      
      You are right!!Talking the talk is relatively easy, the big problem comes when you try to walk the walk.
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    are you calling him /her a christian because they go to church, ,,, the church is full of non believers , chris that is a fact not fiction
  - Dave
    
    Now Chris we know ur NOT telling the whole truth, are you now? You have to make stuff up to make ur point.
  - MGM46
    
    How do you know he was a Christian?
  - Evermyrtle
    
    This probably happened years, ago. This is not the first time that I have read it. Besides, if he is telling the truth about the matter, he should be able to realize that a
    person is not a just because he says he is one. If you don't walk the walk as well as you talk the talk, that means it is doubtful that you are a Christian..You need to "Get Over It"
Dr. D.

One effective way to deal with these FFR people is simply to make them spend more money than they have to push their cause. In order to do this, cities, organization, etc., cannot cave to their threats. Take them on and make them spend their money. It is unfortunate that Steubenville gave up the fight, but there are others putting up a good fight. Support those who will stand against destruction of your rights as a Christian.
- Chris P
  
  You don't have special rights as a Christian. We all have equal rights. We have the right not to have your unprovable notion of a God stuffed down our throats at every turn. You cannot agree who or what this magic god wants or thinks. It's BOGUS. As it is you already get SPECIAL rights as a Christian that you don't deserve. You get tax breaks for this nonsense and you are allowed to marry unlike gays who you have forced into a subjugated role in society because of your manufactured hate.
  - JD
    
    You have just shown how ignorant and biased you are. If you studied the founding of this country, you would have learned that it was founded as a Christian nation. The same goes if you had truly studied the Holy Scriptures, you would know there is a God. By your words and actions, you have condemed yourself. I shall pray for your soul. It is not too late for you to turn your fate around.
    - MGM46
      
      They are not going to study anything – they are going to cause trouble.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Jerry-Alexander/642813293 Jerry Alexander
        
        I think their should be a …Gay! bring you family to work day.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Atheists know more about religion than theists. We have studied the bible, which is why we know what nonsense it actually is.
      
      The country was formed by many who called themselves Christians, but they did not form a Christian nation. They formed a secular nation because they wanted to avoid all the bloodshed that religious nations always create when the religious groups fight each other.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Jeff,
        While I cannot deny that you have read the Bible you have never "studied" it. That is quite evident when your posts indicate that you fail to i nterpret what you read correctly. You have stated that the Bible says the world is flat. The Bible does not comment on whether the earth is a pancake or a sphere. You said the Bible says Pi is 3. Incorrect. The Bible only gives approximations, Which is what "science" does..Admittedly "science" is accurate to a large number of decimal places, but it is still only an approximation. You talk about the food prohibitions, yet it is patently evident you do not know what you are talking about. Seeing the number of your posts over the years it is evident that you are an example of Ecclesiates 5: 3, "a fool's voice is known by multitude of words."
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Proverbs 8:27- When he prepared the heavens, I was there, When he drew a circle on the face of the deep
        Isaiah 40:22- It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And it's inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
        Anyone with a basic grasp of geometry knows what a circle is. It's a flat, two dimensional object. According to these scriptures, the earth is shaped like a CD. Again, as much as many people want to believe this proves that the world is a sphere, they are only proving the Bible talks of a flat earth.
        
        "And he [Hiram] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one rim to the other it was round all about, and…a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about….And it was an hand breadth thick…." — First Kings, chapter 7, verses 23 and 26
        
        30 divided by 10 is 3. Not an approximation, It is exactly 3.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Poor Jeff, another assinine post. If you had understand Proverbs you would know it wasnt' the writer who was there, but Wisdom. And jjust in casy you forgot your spherical trigonometry a sphere viewed from any perspective is a circle. And it is obvious that you have no comprehension of either ancient methods of measurement or the history of mathematics. Three thousand or more years ago, when the bronze basin called a "sea" in this text was cast, there was no decimal system, so a circumference of three times the diameter was likely as close an estimate as they could come to at that time. Even mathematicians with modern computers still have a number of decimal points to add to the figure and it still remains an approximation – or have you forgotten whatever amount of calculus you may have familiarized youself with in college? Note, i said familiarized, not learned! You need to learn a bit more about science and math so that you don't appear so ignorant to those of us who have studied the sciencess for more years than you have schooling!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Right, the author was inspired by god but somehow god is unable to inspire him to write down how to obtain pi correctly.
        
        And yes, a sphere viewed from above does look like a circle, however, it is supposedly an all knowing god who is inspiring people to write these verses. He could have inspired the author to describe the world's shape correctly somehow was incapable of it.
        
        You may have studied science, but your refusal to accept that the bible was written by men with no god influencing it will prevent you from ever being able to use that science in a meaningful way.
      - A
        
        You know, my friend, you really are ignorant. You fail to note that much of the Bible was written over three thousand to twenty-five hundred years ago. And the rest was written at least nineteen hundred. The authours were writing for a populace to whom the things you feel the Bible should contain.would be incapable of grasping. The Bible is not a text in the Sciences, Mathematics or History, although it does contain a fair bit of the latter. It is a book of spiritual values, not material.Maybe if you understood that you could learn something from it!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        If it actually offered any spiritual values, perhaps I would. But since it offers nonsense and calls it spiritual information, I shall have to take a pass.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Not nonsense at all. A!
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Jeff,
        You might just find "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" a valuable virtue.
        And, by the way, I spent my working life applying Science in a meaningful way. And spent every day doing it learning more about it. It is only the athiest's mind that is so closed he/she cannot learn from science that conflicts with the atheistic view..Your ignorance of Science, Mathematics and the Bible is appalling.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since science always assumes a naturalistic explanation for every occurance, there is nothing in science that could conflict with an atheistic viewpoint. That statement alone shows just how little you truly understand science.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        I stand by my word, Jeff. Ypour ignorance of Science is not only appalling, so is your arrogance.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You can stand by it, jump on it, or do cartwheels around it. It does not change the fact that you do not understand science. Science never assumes that the supernatural exists.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        I stand by my last statement! You are right – Science is neutral But maybe you failed to notice that a top group of Physicist has stated that Science cannot prove there is a God and neither can it prove that thee isn't. True Science assumes neither that the supernatural exists. or that it doesn't. That part is left to faith. YOu neeed to get your head out of the sand and get over your atheistic arrogance.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Now that is humorous. Your last word, which you state you stand
        by, is that I am ignorant of science. You then go on to state that I am right
        about science. Rather odd for someone who is appalling ignorant about science.
        
        Science cannot also prove that invisible unicorns exist.
        However, since there is no evidence for them, there is no reason to accept them
        on faith. people accept things on faith, because there is NO evidence. It is
        not atheist arrogance to refuse to believe in invisible unicorns or invisible
        gods.
      - Tommy Stringer
        
        It is proper and correct to spell the word "God" in reference to the one and only source of "infinite intelligence", . "wisdom" and ultimate "power" with a capital "G".
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The biblical god exhibits none of that.
      - Mary Wood
        
        If you are right the pyramids would never have been built … however, knowledge of mathematics was very well known at the time by learned people. Besides the Holy Bible is said to be inerrant, incapable of being wrong, without error, due to the fact God inspired all of it and protected the scripture from error. Ask any Calvinist. So if the bible is supposed to be inerrant, any rational person can see, that there is something wrong with that picture. Therefore, Jeffrey has every reason to question as he has. You are obtuse.
      - rockribbedrushy
        
        Dixon, you are a broken record.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Broken records do not make any sound. My voice is very clear. And it is amusing you are using a picture of Chaney. He is in favor of gay marriage.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I believe you need to remember that, because you sound exactly like a broken record, You forget that you cannot force people to change their minds and believe as you do, you do not even have a sensible reason, you have no reasons except,"my great wisdom and I know what is right for you as well as foe me and I will nag you to death until you change your mind!!" FORGET IT WE ARE CHRISTIAN FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!
      - Mary Wood
        
        Neither can you Myrtle. You are quite the intimidating sort. Jeff is not, otherwise you could not approach him as you do.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Myrtle is hardly intimidating.
      - Mary Wood
        
        : )
      - Mary Wood
        
        She is that sort. And she does mean to be. No?
      - Mary Wood
        
        I gave her the definition for reason from the Merriam dictionary online somewhere on this page, when she claimed you never gave reasons. If you want to see it I think you will have to disqus it
      - Mary Wood
        
        Myrtle, Evermyrtle and Annie are the same person. We are dealing with, as they say in the south, with the Three Faces of Eve. : )
      - Mary Wood
        
        she is soft bigot we call her kind in the south… like boiling frogs.. she is an expert at the task
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since many Christians renounce their faith, your comment is, as usual, wrong.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Neit. If you think so you are not listening.
      - petroskhan
        
        Technically, a circle is two dimensional…are you claiming that the Bible purports the world is two dimensional?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, the bible makes many references to this belief. The essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel
        4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the
        earth…reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest
        bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be
        visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical
        earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8
        says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him
        all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this
        would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation
        1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him…”
      - petroskhan
        
        ……
        
        I was going to just make a simple humorous comment, and move on, but once again, you seem to be indulging in your great love, bashing the Bible, using illogic and willful blindness. Okay, here goes:
        
        1 – "visible to the earth's farthest bounds." Ever heard the terms "figure of speech", or "poetic license"? If not, look them up. It could help.
        
        2 – "…showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory." No supernatural ability could have done this, right? No visions…nothing like that could have occurred, of course.
        
        You know, if you gave the Bible one-tenth the leeway you give to the ridiculous claims of the science you worship, you would be a Christian overnight. Yet you demand that every word of the Bible be literal, proven with something visible before your eyes, beyond any doubt whatsoever. On the other hand, you accept the wildest and most unproven claims of evolution without batting an eyelash, and claim it's logical, factual, and sensible to do so.
        
        You are biased, prejudiced, and contradict yourself, Dixon. The saddest part of it is, you refuse to see it, and never will.
      - Mary Wood
        
        NEVER? That's a long time. You can't possibly know it all. Even the Calvinists don't.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Christians state time and time again that the bible is true. When it shown that the bible cannot be true, they fall back on figure of speech or poetic license. Now, how are we supposed to know when the bible is true and when it is using poetic license?
        
        Drum roll ——— Science!
      - petroskhan
        
        Whatever, Jeff. You've got your version of reality, I've got mine, and never the twain shall meet.
        
        You've decided that the Bible is wrong, and will listen to nothing but yourself, and your so-called "science" of evolution. So be it.
        
        But, before you get all happy with yourself, thinking you've proven something or refuted the Bible by dismissing the whole "figure of speech" thing…how many times have YOU stated that "science doesn't have all the answers yet", or "we don't have the answers to that yet" or something similar, in defense of YOUR god?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Many times. Yet science has never claimed to be all knowing or all powerful. Those are claims of your god, which cannot be supported.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you will use science every time you need to show reality. The twain will meet there every day.
      - petroskhan
        
        Like life from lifelessness? Is that the "reality" that your science is going to show? Or how organisms can increase the amount of genetic information they contain? Seen any lizards bred from worms recently?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        My view has never stated life from lifelessness. But it does show how genetic information increases. No, we will never see that occur. That is the theist opinion of how life occurs, not the atheist view. What else do you have in the idiotic Christian bag o tricks?
      - Mary Wood
        
        "Whatever" !! Are you a teenager or adult. I would guess the former. You argue from the point of view as an uninformed, irrational youngster who has practiced with his friends on how to get around adults to get what he wants. And I wager you work for a kind of institution where your clever nothings bring you position and a modicum of salary paid by hard working taxpayers. Am I right Petroskhan? You like big government, don't you, especially if the Christians are in charge. They are your perfect victims.
      - petroskhan
        
        LOL
        
        Let's see…how many things did you get wrong there? As you asked before, let's take them one at a time, shall we?
        
        1 – "Are you a teenager or adult? I would guess the former." I'm 49 years old. You were wrong.
        
        2 – "…uninformed irrational youngster…" Umm…two college degrees, I tend to base all my decisions on logic, never act on impulse, and believe a man shouldn't buy something he can't pay cash for, and as I said, I'm 49 years old. Wrong again.
        
        3 – "…I wager you work for a kind of institution where your clever nothings bring you position and a modicum of salary paid by hard working taxpayers." I am self-employed, an investor in the foreign exchange, making quite a bit more than "a modicum of salary", thank you very much. Sorry, Mary, wrong on all counts there, as well.
        
        4 – "You like big government, don't you, especially if the Christians are in charge." Wrong on both counts. I want the smallest government necessary, with religion left to the religious, who should be free to voice their opinions without backlash or recrimination from reactionary leftist mouthpieces (Chick-fil-A?)
        
        So…what have we learned here today, children? Ask questions before you jump to conclusions, and don't assume you know something you don't, would be a good start. But, hey…thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. :D
      - Mary Wood
        
        WELL Petroskhan. Then don't act like an imbecile!!! I will work like crazy to keep the likes of your faction out of power. Count on it. I will not leave the world my children will grow up in the hands of such incompetents as you are when you address rational thought with such nonsense.
      - petroskhan
        
        LMAO
        I must admit, I am delighted, though unsurprised, that your response falls perfectly within my expectations. I address each and every point you mention, point out where you are wrong, and your reply is to insult a man you don't even know, and refer to my polite, point-by-point counter as "nonsense".
        
        Well done. You are living up to the stereotype perfectly. Carry on.
      - Mary Wood
        
        WISHFUL THINKING ON YOUR PART PETROSKHAN! Anyone who can read can clearly see my objections to you are directly related to your earlier posts this evening on this page, not to your feigned efforts at rational thinking, the subject of which I am sure you failed in school.
      - petroskhan
        
        Yeah, sure…hey, it's your story, tell it how you like. Oh, wait, how about this answer: "Whatever." ROFL
        
        Really, Mary, stop trying so hard, and just have some fun, talking about stuff you enjoy to people you'll never meet, and whose minds you can't change. That's how I look at this whole thing, and I don't try to get all personal about it. I don't know you, I'll never meet you, and I'm NOT going to comment about you personally because of that. Try to reciprocate, and just chill out a bit.
        
        Jeff is snide and full of himself, sure, but at least he can keep it civil and on topic, without resorting to personal attacks. Well, unless someone launches one at him first. I don't agree with him about much, if anything, but he can, as I said, stay on topic and civil. Try doing the same.
      - Mary Wood
        
        YOU ARE THE ONE RESORTING TO PERSONAL ATTACKS. YOU are no mentor of mine so I don't accept you deprecating advice on the heal of what you think has been sufficient to subjugate me to your disciplinary action. Forget trying to sell me your irrational world view. There is no chance I will buy it. You are out of your mind if you think you can trivialize what is happening in this country. You are all mouth and no substance when it comes to any legitimate debate. I can't see why anyone wastes time on you. I also hate patronizing tones worst than your idiot remarks you have made on this page, so every time you speak I am reminded of those snide remarks made to people who are good Americans, and your attempts made in a deprecating tone, is not winning me over to "have some fun." You are one of the worst examples of foreign influence, that is ruining this country from its pragmatic roots.
      - petroskhan
        
        Wow, you are…just wow. Gimme a minute here…
        
        "You are no mentor of mine…" Your loss, though I wasn't looking to fill the job.
        
        "I don't accept you deprecating advice on the heal of what you think has been sufficient to subjugate me to your disciplinary action." First off, that should be "heels", not "heal". Second off, no deprecation was intended. You really need to chill, girl. Third…"subjugate me to your disciplinary action"? Who talks like that? And who said anything about subjugation? Relax, will you?
        
        "You are all mouth and no substance when it comes to any legitimate debate." Well, since all you've done is try to insult me, and all I've done is show you where you're mistaken about who I am and what I stand for, we haven't had the chance to engage in any "legitimate debate", so how do you know?
        
        "I can't see why anyone wastes time on you." Ditto.
        
        And here's the one I love the most. "You are one of the worst examples of foreign influence, that is ruining this country from its pragmatic roots." Grammatical errors aside, "foreign influence"? Pardon my French, but what the HELL are you babbling about? I'm an American, sweetness. Born of two citizens, right here in the good ol' US of A. Staunch defender of the Constitution as written, and a God-fearing, gun-totin' right winger.
        
        And, that said, I'm done with you. I don't know you, but your comments are illogical, you do nothing but make personal attacks, are insulting beyond tolerance and reason, and are quite simply no fun. It's that last one I find unforgivable.
        
        You "debate", if one call it that, like a child, and a poorly raised one at that. I don't mean to personally offend you, but your comments are giving that impression. You spout completely unfounded gibberish, make bizarre accusations me personally, and then express outrage when confronted with it. I think you should go over what you type before hitting that "Post" button. Seriously. Again, no offense intended, just giving you an impartial assessment of your posts.
        
        I really hate to say this, and I do apologize for this in advance, but you have left me no choice. Any further remarks/replies of yours will be ignored. I am sorry. No sarcasm, condescension or other negative tone intended. I'm really sorry to have to say that, but you are simply dragging the conversation down too far, and I'm no longer willing to pay attention to your comments.
        
        God Bless, and have a truly great life.
      - Mary Wood
        
        you are a fool petroskhan, totally not credible… read your own comments to see the source of my just criticism … I don't accept your insincere, nonconsequential blessing
      - Mary Wood
        
        AN EARLIER POST FROM PETROSKHAN: QUOTE
        petroskhan replied to rockribbedrushyYou will find, as I did, that arguing with Jeffie is two things. Repetitive, and boring. He will bring out the same old points, time after time, and act like you've never answered them, or proven him wrong. He will state the most blatant falsehoods, and claim to believe in them. He will go on and on, ad nauseum, about his love of "logic", and "science", yet will have no answers to the most basic questions regarding both.Sooner or later (hopefully sooner), you will come to the same decision I have, which is to ignore him. He can prove nothing, and will listen to no proof. Best to move on, and just pray that at some point, God decides to allow Jeff to hear His Word.END OF QUOTE
        
        NOW, PETROSKHAN: WHO DID YOU SAY IS BORING?
      - petroskhan
        
        No one. I said arguing with him is boring. It is. I try not to, but sometimes he says something I feel a need to address.
        
        If you're going to quote me, at least put forth the effort to do it accurately.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I may be many things, but boring is never one of them. At any given time, I am arguing with 5-10 different people on religious topics. At a bare minimum, I should be given credit for being able to multi-task.
      - petroskhan
        
        Well, I said arguing with you was boring, but that's still wrong, and inaccurate. I shouldn't have stated that, and would like to retract that, if you don't mind. I was in a bit of a mood when I wrote it.
        
        You are, as you said, many things, and boring isn't one of them. Stubborn, maybe…but so am I. Glass houses, and all that.
        
        And yes, full credit for multi-tasking. Consider all requisite and desired kudos extended.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Major backtracking… tsk… tsk see ya petroskhan
      - Mary Wood
        
        Backtracking to cover your tracks again petroskhan? You seem to be an old hand at it.
      - Mary Wood
        
        I guess I was right on the count where you are one "who has practiced with his friends on how to get around adults to get what he wants." Don't thank me. I would have expelled you from my class after your third dysfunctional remark.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Degrees do not mean knowledge. But I guess your degrees never discussed that.
        
        Whether you make make a decent income or not will not be decided by your comments , will it Mr Logic?
        
        You want small government unless it decides that religion is wrong. then you want government to decide that religion is right.
        
        What we have learned is that the religious only like answers if they agree with them.
      - petroskhan
        
        Unfortunately, Jeff, I must disagree with you. On all points. I'm in an affable mood, so…
        
        One, I would say that a degree means knowledge, but perhaps not wisdom. A degree is simply a measure of how well one has absorbed and then regurgitated, on command, a specific body of knowledge.
        
        My income is irrelevant to any discussion here, so…
        
        I want small government. Period. My religion is my business, just as your religion is your business. I wan no government involvement in mine or yours, nor do I want any laws "regarding the establishment of a religion, or the free exercise thereof."
        
        The religious only like answers if they agree with them? Do YOU like answers with which you disagree? Hey, no one LIKES disagreement. Note, I am talking about the answer itself. If you disagree with it, then you don't like it.
        
        We might enjoy a spirited debate, but that's NOT the same thing, nor the same topic.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, a degree can imply knowledge, however, many people obtain degrees without actually learning what was required. Some cheat their way through school. Even if you have a degree in one field, that does not mean you understand another field.
        You are the one who brought up your income. ." I am self-employed, an investor in the foreign exchange, making quite a bit more than "a modicum of salary", If your income is irrelevant, then you should not have inserted it into the conversation.
        If you are in favor of school prayer, city officials invoking Christian prayers or Christian religious symbols, then you are in favor of the government establishing a religion.
        Perhaps "like" was a poor chioce of words. Accept would have been a better one.
      - petroskhan
        
        I'll agree with you that some can (and do) cheat their ways through school. Also, a degree in one field does NOT equate to knowledge in another.
        
        I disagree with your second point, as your own quote of my words shows that you are mistaken. It was Mary who suggested that earned a "modicum of salary" in some juvenile attempt to insinuate something about my work. I did not "insert" it into the conversation, I was responding to her comment.
        
        Two points on your last comment, regarding religion, "If you are in favor of school prayer, city officials invoking Christian prayers or Christian religious symbols, then you are in favor of the government establishing a religion."
        
        One, I don't think any prayer should be "invoked", but if anyone, city official or private person, wants to pray, or invite others to join him, that's his right. No one is to be coerced or made to feel that it's required, but people do have the right to pray if they so choose. That would be the whole "free exercise thereof" part of it. I know what you might think. "It makes others who do NOT wish to pray feel uncomfortable, or that if they don't join in, others will be offended", or something similar. Possibly, but should we tolerate others' beliefs? Even if they differ from ours? To give you an example of how I look at such things, are you old enough to recall going into restaurants, and being asked "Smoking or non-smoking?" I've never smoked in my life, so my answer was always "Non-smoking", but I think it's people whining about things that don't concern them that is a problem we all have. I never had any problem with people smoking in a restaurant. I could be, and sometimes was, seated at the table next to smokers, and never had a complaint about it. I could smell the smoke, but thought if they wanted to commit slow suicide, that's their choice. Along those lines, how can anyone get so steamed up over a few seconds of a bowed head and a few words to someone you don't even believe exists? Most of my family is Christian, but I have a nephew who is an atheist. Recently we gathered for a funeral, and when there was a prayer for the deceased, he simply sat there waiting for it to finish. He wasn't offended, didn't feel left out, and no one cared that the didn't take part. He's not religious, but he gave others the space to do what they wanted.
        
        The second thought I have is more of a question, and not a rhetorical one at all. How does a person praying "establish" a religion? It seems to me that the Founders were attempting to head any sort of "Church of England" nonsense, and so cut that option out of the picture. I believe THAT is a "wall of separation" that we do have in our laws. But the simple act of a person praying doesn't "establish" a religion, that is the "free exercise" portion of his rights. There is large difference between establishing a religion, and practicing your religion.
        
        So, "like" or "accept" might both be wrong, it depends on which facet of the issue you're addressing. I will accept someone praying, just as I will accept someone NOT praying, if he so chooses. And just to save you some time, since you might ask it, would I prefer (or "like") that all politicians be Christian? I don't think so. That, also, could lead us down the road to a theocracy, which I don't want. What I want is for everyone to simply have the space to believe as they wish, and practice as they wish, as long as it doesn't concretely interfere with anyone else's beliefs, nor harm the welfare of this country.
        
        Hope that clears things up. If not, let me know.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You indicated you make more than a
        "modicum of salary". That is certainly something you injected into the conversation.
        
        When public officials decide to invoke a prayer, they are saying they believe that religion is the accurate one. That is not the function of a secular society. They can pray all they want on their own time. When they are acting in a public forum, they should not make other groups uneasy.
      - petroskhan
        
        I indicated I make more than a "modcium of salary" in reply to Mary's comment. If I'm responding to something, does that equate to "injecting (it) into the conversation"? My opinion is that the original statement would be the "injection", but yours may differ. You have that right.
        
        As for a public official praying, I have a couple of questions.
        
        Is he free to exercise his religion as and when he sees fit or not?
        
        Multiple part question here, but all bearing on the same point. Let's assume some public official is a known Christian.
        How could his praying make someone uneasy? What if him NOT praying makes OTHERS uneasy?
        
        I think this is more of a "live and let live" issue than something that requires legislation. If a politician is a Christian, let him pray if he chooses to do so. If he's an atheist, I don't expect him to pray, and am not offended when he doesn't.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You stated you made more than a
        "modcium of salary". That was an additional injection. However, it is also trivial.
        
        In general, I would agree that people should be allowed to exercise their religion when they see fit to do so. But, government officials have a more difficult path. They are required to be religiously neutral when they are voicing an opinion as a representative of the government. As such, they should not give preference of one religion over another. Now, I suspect you might disagree. But what if the preference was Islam?
      - petroskhan
        
        Agreed, on the "trivial" assessment.
        
        My objections to islam are many; personal, religious, and patriotic.
        
        Leaving my personal and religious reasons out of it, since we are discussing political matters, my objection to islam being the religion of any public official is that it is the stated goal of islam to supplant other religions AND governments with their own socio-political structure, subjugating or eliminating all dissent and opposition.
      - Mary Wood
        
        LOL Petroskhan = contradiction
        
        "Leaving my personal and religious reasons out of it, since we are discussing political matters, my objection to … " ~Petroskhan
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Therefore, you would object to a government official envoking Islam. Others oject to them envoking Christianity. Which is why the founders did their best to keep religion out of government.
      - petroskhan
        
        Would you object to a government official advocating the abolition of the Constitution?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I would. Which is one reason why I find Ted's position objectionable. I also would think they would be voted out of office very quickly. However, not every Muslim believes that to the goal of Islam in the USA.
      - petroskhan
        
        If you would object to a government official advocating the abolition of the Constitution, then you must, by logical extension, be opposed to islam, or even having muslims serve in any official capacity. It is the stated goal of islam to overthrow all other governments. It is also specifically allowed (even encouraged) for muslims to lie to advance the cause of islam. Ergo, they cannot be trusted.
        
        In stating that "not every muslim believes that to (be) the ogal of islam in the USA", there are two possibilities regarding such persons. One, they are lying, as their religion says that they may, should it advance the purpose of spreading islam. Two, they are not actually muslims, but only by birth, and not following the dictates of their faith. But, as stated, since they are allowed, even encouraged, to lie to promote the goals of islam, how can we be sure? Best to err on the side of caution, then.
        
        Islam is anti-American, and should not be allowed within the borders of this country. So, going back to your original point, I would object to islam in any way, since it is antithetical to our values, and seeks to actively oppose them. Christianity does not. One can represent the people of America, and be a Christian, while a muslim cannot.
      - Mary Wood
        
        You guessed right but you are not convincing, ogalpetroskhan
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Then you are in favor or changing or ignoring the Constitution as it does not allow a religious test for federal office.
        
        There is much in the Constitution that is contrary to the bible. Christians have to be willing to ignore the bible in order to abide by the Constitution.
      - petroskhan
        
        Nor does it allow, require, or stipulate a test of patriotism, yet you claimed that you wouldn't be in favor of a politician who sought to abolish the Constitution. As islam, a socio-political movement, seeks to supplant our laws with its own, I disapprove of it, and its adherents, and would oppose them serving within our government, just as you would.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It does not require a test of patriotism, but if someone tried to overthrow the government, they could be arrested for treason. You state that Islam seeks to do this. We have on this very site Ted, a Christian, who seeks to do this. Neither will be successful.
      - Mary Wood
        
        petroskhan = artificial intelligence at its worst
        Making up to Jeff, now Petroskhan?
      - Mary Wood
        
        Jeff, Are you getting infected by petroskhan?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I use protection when I am online.
        You do not need to request it. Simply post your response.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Jeff,
        You wouldn't know "science" if it jumped up and bit you on the backside. You willingly accept any garbage put out by evolutionissts without any question, but if anyone contrdicts the evolutionst you go into a frenzy. Your "new mosquito" is a case in point. It is an Anopheles, and the two strains noted in the article are indistinguishable on morphoogical grounds. And morphology was the ony method of identifying them until the advent of DNA sampling..It is now known that there are two morphologically identical strains and that they choose different habitats. However, no one knows for sure how long this difference has existed, and it is likely this will never be discovered. One very simple question is, "How long have Anophelses mosquitos ibeen in both habitats?" While I will admit that the answer to this question fails to answer when the two DNA strains arose, You fail to even broach that subject. No, Jeff, you are the scientific ignoramus!
      - SMRTNUP
        
        "I was set up before the earth ever was" . . . What am I ? . .. "WISDOM" !
        DEFINE: INTELLIGENCE
        " : KNOWLEDGE
        " WISDOM
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You define them. It is your point to make, not mine.
      - Mike
        
        Bravo!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, your argument is that god is right and the bible, which claims to be written by god confirms it? But that is the same argument that the Muslims make. And the Jews, who by the way, who disagree that Jesus is actually the son of god. And they have reasons for that. All of which come from the Old Testament. Which was originally their book from god before Christians hijacked it and tried to make it part of their book from god. So, if all you have is a pirated book of fables, that the original owners say is not correctly interpreted, I am afraid what you are left with is nothing.
    - Mistertea
      
      Learn to spell before you start on the 'Christian nation' nonsense.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Why ask for the impossible?
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    Chris,, Before I became a Born Again Christian , I had the thoughts and attitude of I can think and act as I please and so can you, live and let live . If you want to be an Atheist , more power to you, if you want to be a Homo , more power to you, If you want to abort your unwanted Baby, more power to you! But now after being Born Again and learning the truth through the Word Of God, You Chris have chosen not to live and let live, and along with the Homos , and murders of babies, and Islam who want THEIR thoughts and attitudes first and formost in the world . to an un Born again person like you Chris when you JUST AGREE with the Homo Lifestyle of sin , you will find yourself right beside them in a very very BAD place, Where all non-Born Again people will be , ((( HELL))) ,, Of coarse unless you repent and become Born Again Rom 3:23 For all have sinned…. 6:23 The wages of sin is death…..
  - Boomer
    
    Actually Chris P the Christian has much evidence to support their belief in Jesus the Christ and the Bible as a true and supernatural communication from the Creator. Just because you refuse to believe, read or study any of these evidences doesn't mean that is unprovable. It just means that you are ignorant on the subject. Unless you have all the worlds knowledge in your brain. Do you? I've read many of the evolutionists writings and compared them to the writings in evolutioncruncher.com and I will tell you that it is the evolutionist that has an unprovable theory lacking in any truthful evidence. There are scientific facts in the bible that were written many years before man made the discovery and in many of the cases it would have been impossible for a mere human to have known. Archeological discoveries that have proven the accuracy of the scriptures. Medical facts as well as historical evidences. Of course you'll probably just have some kind of unintelligent insult for me but never look into discovering these evidences on your own. There's a verse in the bible that says we are always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. Souns like someone called Chris P.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Nonsense. It states the world was flat, that Pi equals 3 and that you can cure leprosy by using the blood of birds. It gets some things right, but nothing that was not known at that time in history.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Talk abou tnonsense Jeff, your post is fuill of it. The Bible nowhere states that the world is flat, not does it say that Pi equals three. Measuring in those days was not as accurate as it is now. Three is simply a close approximation. And at the time of the prohibitions of wearing clothing of linenn and woolen mixed and prohibiting shellfish there was good reason, especially for the shellfish. Many of them are/were contaminated with pollutants that were destructive to health. Same for pork. Cooking in those days wasn't as precise is it is now and pigfs were freqeuntly, almost universally, contaminated with Trichina. Having read your posts for a few years now it becomes painfully evident that you are defficient in scientific knowledge..
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course it does. Signs of the flat earth in the Bible. In Job 11:9 it says that heaven and hell's measurements are "Their measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea". How long is a sphere? There is no length in a sphere. Now a flat two dimensional object would have a length.
        
        Proverbs 8:27- When he prepared the heavens, I was there, When he drew a circle on the face of the deepIsaiah 40:22- It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And it's inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.But anyone with a basic grasp of geometry knows what a circle is. It's a flat, two dimensional object. According to these scriptures, the earth is shaped like a CD. Again, as much as many people want to believe this proves that the world is a sphere, they are only proving the Bible talks of a flat earth.
        
        One of the most famous mathematical statements in the Bible is in I Kings 7:23-26, describing a large cauldron, or "molten sea" in the Temple of Solomon:
        
        He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it – ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths. (NIV)
        
        In other words, it says Pi equals 3. It is not an approximation. 30 divided by 10 is 3, not an approximation of 3.
        
        But please keep on showing how little you know of the bible or science.
      - Boomer
        
        The word 'Sphere'? Referenced from Gesenius" Lexicon. If you look up the word 'Chuwg' in Strong's and it's different uses you will see that the word can also mean Encompass, Encircle, Vault, draw a circle, compass and so on. When I read Isaiah 40 in it's entirety I do understand the circle of the earth to mean the earth is round. Flat earthers in the past believed the world to be flat and square. English versions of the bible for the most part translate the word as 'circle.' I was raised in a multi-lingual home and the word here in Isaiah for me always meant 'GLOBE.' In Italian versions of the bible (1927) is GLOBO and (1649) is GLOBO and in Spanish (1569 and 1602) is GLOBO and 1 French version that I know of the Ostervald is GLOBE. You can see translators of other nations knew the Hebrew word meant GLOBE or SPHERE.
  - KatieT
    
    Ever hear of Doubting Thomas??? Christians have Faith….and there is no need to be rude and obnoxious referring to God as bogus when you don't know that to be a fact. We will as Christians pray for you. We live in the land of free worship. I'd rather live my life as a Christian believer in God and find out you were right it was all a lie, than live my life like you do rejecting God and in the end find our it's all true, for you it will be too late. Makes one wonder. There is still time. I pray for God to bless you…..and to bring you to closer to him.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      It does make one wonder why people will embrace the delusion of religion.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    You are a perfect example to the anti-CHRIST flourishing in the world ,today with a hate for HIM that is described in HIS WORD, the BIBLE
    
    Matt,15:17-18
    17. These things I command you, that you love one another.
    18. If the world hate you, you know that it hated me before it hated you.
    It is not too late for you to repent. You will be able to repent, until death or until HE returns. Either event will end your opportunity to repent.
  - Old Observer
    
    Someday, you are going to stand before the God you deny exists–and you are going to find out how wrong you were–just before you are given a very warm place to live–forever. This country has been going down the tubes ever since Madelyn Murray O'Hare started pushing the atheist agenda–Morals have become almost non-existent–God says homosexuality is an abomination–and that's why y'all want to erase God. You call us haters—but look at all the various demonstrations that happen–and see–honestly–which groups are the vicious, destructive, and hateful ones. It is NOT the Christians.
    I would rather live my life in faith, by Christian principles, believing in God and Jesus-and die to nothing, than to live it not believing and die to find, too late–that it was all true.
    Of course, if you don't read the Bible, becoming familiar with it, you don't know about all the prophecies that are now being fulfilled, that tell us time is short. Call me crazy–you will–but someday soon, you will discover that you were a fool.
  - The Parson
    
    Hay Chris, since you hate Christ and Christians so much it must be burden to carry your name which is short for Christian. I would change my name or change my attitude. Peace and love.
    - MGM46
      
      Yep, sounds as if he is violating some right someone has somewhere. If the atheist crowd doesn't have a right then they will make one up.
  - Texas Jack
    
    YEY bozo WHERE DO YOU FIND HATE IN jESUS i MISSED THAT PART IN THE BIBLE –wHAT cHAPTER AND VERSE IS IT
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Matthew 15:22 – 28?
      
      Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
      
      Jesus was unwilling to help since she was not a Hebrew, until she begged. Hardly the act of someone who loves all mankind.
  - whitestone57
    
    Homosexuals Are 'sic' People. Deviant Sexual Behavior. Fags,Queers,Fairies Think Like You Do…If You Like 'FISTING' Move To An Island In The South Pacific….Where You 'All' Can Die Of 'Aids'. Your 'Swill' Is One Of Real Sickness. Oh…..And When I Get a Chance……I'll Eat At CHIC-FIL-A.
  - gwinf
    
    Wow, so much hate. As you have stated, we have EQUAL rights. However, the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
    prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". So, Congress did not put the cross on the logo, nor did they require that it be included. People of an independent community decided that the landmark, which has a cross, was representative of their values. Neither does Congress nor any other entity have the right to prohibit the use of a religious symbol. I am sorry you are so upset by the right of others to have and to hold a faith in an unprovable God. It is our choice to apply the faith that what we believe is true regardless of proof as it is your choice to deny His existence. Your non-belief to us is equally "BOGUS". As for the tax breaks, there are also tax breaks given to organizations that oppose religion, so if you feel so strongly, you have the right to support them as much as we have the right to support those that support our beliefs. On the subject of gays, you find them acceptable, we find them to be immoral. We do not subjugate, nor do we hate. If gays wish to live together, they may do so, if they wish to have a form of union that provides the same level of government recognition that marriage provides to heterosexual couples, they have the right to do so. However, redefining the word marriage to represent a form of union that persons of faith find reprehensible is unacceptable. Call it what you will, civil union or love-in, just don't demean the tradition and meaning of marriage. Since you probably will not read this and even if you do, your hate will only grow as a result, this reply is intended more as a message to others who might entertain your hate than it is for you. Again, I am so sorry you have nothing to believe in. I pray to my unprovable God that he will indeed offer you proof that your eyes may be opened to the wonder of faith.
  - friendstellthetruth
    
    "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good". If anyone is manufacturing hate, it is you. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It doesn't matter if you believe in Him or not. He was, He is and will always be! You are told over and over to turn to God; He draws you to HIm – you resist. He tries to send people into your life to tell you about Him – you harden your heart and shake your fist at Him. He tries to show you that you are going over a cliff, but you think you know better than the One who created you. You don't want to hear about sin, so you spew hate towards those who are trying to help you. It's your own pride and arrogance that is keeping you from letting God's truth into your heart. Suppose we Christians are right? What happens when you stand before the throne of God on your judgement day and He opens the Book of Life and your name isn't written in there? You will go to everlasting separation from all that God has created for you; to darkness, terror, pain, suffering forevermore. God doesn't want you to choose that; He wants you to choose life and blessings through Jesus Christ. It's not a hard thing to do to swallow your pride and rebellion and come to the Cross and ask Him to become your Savior. It's a free gift and you cannot ever, ever make yourself better – but He accepts you just the way you are, the way all of us are/were – liars, cheaters, haters, thieves, gluttons, etc – alienated from God. But His free gift of life, joy, peace, is a choice we all have to make. Please choose life and blessings. God is waiting for you with open arms to welcome you into His Kingdom. Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed. You know that saying "I saw the Light"? Well He will open the eyes of your heart and your understanding and you will see things you've never seen before – the veil will come off your eyes and you will be know the Truth and the Truth will MAKE YOU FREE. You will have a peace that passes all understanding and joy unspeakable. Just bow yourself before Jesus Christ and ask Him to forgive your sins and He is faithful and just to forgive you. He loves you – YES YOU!
    - American_Gram
      
      WOW! Truth teller friend – so well said.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      So is wearing clothes made of blended fabrics and eating shellfish. The bible is full of silly and pointless things that the biblical god called abominations.
      - http://www.facebook.com/Nutz4Cubbies Marcy A. Mathis-Baryl
        
        Jeff, no…those things are not abominations. Reading the bible & having to lean on our own understanding definitely makes it difficult. I had a hard time, for more years than not, trying to understand it! But I also knew there was MORE to it than what I was being taught in church so I pressed on and pressed on until finally I found an outstanding bible teacher who has helped me more than I could have ever imagined! Anyways, I'm just saying that those things are not an abomination and when & if you ever want to understand His word better, find a good teacher to help you. I'll pray for ya Jeff.
      - Me_in_Canada_eh
        
        As far as shellfish goes – or any other kind of food – in 1st Peter, Peter has a vision of a sheet dropped down from heaven filled with all sorts of animals, animals that the Old Testament refers to as unclean. God says to Peter, "Peter. Kill and eat." Peter replies nothing unclean will ever enter his mouth, to which God replies, "Never call unclean what I have made clean." This is not just a reference to food but an indirect reference to Christ and the cleansing power of His blood. In other words, don't refer to a Christian saved by Jesus' sacrifice as a sinner. He is no longer a sinner but a child of God (see the 1st chapter of the Book of John)
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, the bible does say this. Which makes it amusing when Christians claim that their god never changes his mind or his laws.
      - http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A
        
        Agaion Jeff, misinterpretation. If you had understood what you had read you would have seen that God was letting Peter know that, what God has cleansed is indeed clesn.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Either the laws change or they do not change. It is one or the other. But it is simply nonsense to claim they do not change while reciting passages that showed they did change.
      - rockribbedrushy
        
        A;
        "If you had understood what you had read "
        
        You are asking an atheist to understand what they read in the Bible?
        They barely understand what they purport to believe.
        I have been reading atheist drivel for years and am amazed that they can find their way to work every day.
        They make things up, misinterpret and blatantly lie.
        Ask Jeff about the "christian" in Australia, eh?
        That is one of their favorite lies about Christians.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Lying for Jesus is a favorite Christian pastime. Atheists have no need to make things up. Logic and science are on our side.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Lying against my SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST ins your favorite past time and you nag and nag and never shut up with your ignorant protests about the greatest truths in the universe which was made by GOD and HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are right. I do not allow the delusional to shut me up.
      - Mary Wood
        
        You are Intimidating, as I said. Do I sound like a broken record? : )
      - petroskhan
        
        Actually, that passage, if you read the rest of the chapter, is in reference to Jews viewing Gentiles as being "unclean" and not associating with them. It has no reference to food whatsoever, and Peter himself wondered what the vision meant, until he was confronted with the Gentiles, and then understood the import of the vision.
        
        It's important to read ALL of a passage, not take verses out of context to have them mean what you'd LIKE them to mean. You know, like atheists love to do.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The simple term "wickedness" is equated with "abomination" in Proverbs 8:7. Are you implying that some sins are worse than others?
      - rockribbedrushy
        
        "So is ………… abominations."
        
        Why don't you and you fellow atheists get some new material.
        I read this same old drivel everywhere you and your sort post.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is no need for new material. The old material works just fine.
      - Annie
        
        What is your material? I have not read anything that has any reasonable qualities.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Delusional people rarely can grasp the concept of reasonable.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Now you are kidding. "What is your material?" Ha Myrtle. You haven't been reading Jeff for understanding. That could get you points off in your English class. Please pay closer attention to Jeff, I won't be around all the time to prompt you. : )
      - petroskhan
        
        You will find, as I did, that arguing with Jeffie is two things. Repetitive, and boring. He will bring out the same old points, time after time, and act like you've never answered them, or proven him wrong. He will state the most blatant falsehoods, and claim to believe in them. He will go on and on, ad nauseum, about his love of "logic", and "science", yet will have no answers to the most basic questions regarding both.
        
        Sooner or later (hopefully sooner), you will come to the same decision I have, which is to ignore him. He can prove nothing, and will listen to no proof. Best to move on, and just pray that at some point, God decides to allow Jeff to hear His Word.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Petroskhan: Let's take one at a time. Jeff's right about the Danbury Letter. [you wouldn't debate me either, what's the problem now, can't be the same reason, I am a novice, at that]
      - petroskhan
        
        "Jeff's right about the Danbury Letter."
        
        Right in what sense? That the letter exists? I agree that it does. Right in the sense that it contains the words "wall of separation of church and state"? I agree, it does. Right in the sense that it has legal weight? I disagree. It is the wording of the personal thoughts of one man, not corroborated by any other, and therefore has no bearing on any discussion regarding Constitutional matters.
      - Mary Wood
        
        You will have to see comments on this page… I hate to repeat myself… yes, I am not tired, but it is tiresome… I don't know how Jeff does it… his reason escapes every-, scratch that, some people… I don't seem to have that problem… Also, I do not want to come under the same ban that you are lobbying for against Jeff. The letter I referenced is given, from the U.S. LOC, and is the final version. There, Jefferson specifically defines what is said in the U. S. Constitution and equates it to the famous phrase… I can't imagine it being any clearer. I sent those posts to Jeff earlier, if you will, please don't make me repeat myself. : )
      - petroskhan
        
        I've read the letter, but as I said, I disagree that it should be given any weight in regards to a discussion of matters pertaining to what the Constitution says. It is a single instance of a single person's thoughts. That is all.
        
        I'm not trying to make you repeat yourself, I just have an opinion on the matter that apparently differs from your own. Ain't America great?
      - Mary Wood
        
        It is! And, don't you know though, Petros, that that letter made their day after all they experienced, being outcasts and all?
      - Mary Wood
        
        Humor me Petroskhan: If will, for my peace of mind, please give me the link that you read, just for confirmation? So many have read other drafts and it is difficult in this atmosphere to not be skeptical. Thanks.
      - petroskhan
        
        http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
      - Mary Wood
        
        That's very good. One check-mark for you.
      - Mary Wood
        
        That's very good. One check-mark for you. Zero on the interpretation. Danbury Baptists are Americans also. I think you think that letter is over my head so you can pull a fast one on me … tsk tsk … you are sadly mistaken… I am certified a reader.
      - petroskhan
        
        I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm an optimist. I had assumed that since you knew how to find a website, and type, that something as plain as that letter was fully within your capacity to understand. Sadly, it seems that civility and humility are beyond your capacities. You are, if you will pardon the honesty, coming across as very smug and condescending. Try to just keep to the topic, what you know, etc. It is more conducive to civil, logical debate. Thanks.
      - Mary Wood
        
        "Sadly" you are irrational. I have seen your condescending posts. YOU are the condescending one, not I. What you are optimistic about is that you will supplant all the minorities and get your boast in power over the people you lobby to become the lesser members of your elitist society. Examples of your idiocy is on this page. My family has been in America for generations from the 1600s and to listen to your tripe makes this member of the American Wood family incensed. Do you know what will happen when you get your way Petros? This member of the Wood family will hate you worse than you detect on this post. So you better pray for a REASONABLE definition of :
        
        "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"
        
        Of course you think this is solely meant exclusively for your religion. Am I right. Petroskhan?
      - petroskhan
        
        I know, I know…I was going to just ignore you, but in all fairness, I missed this post, and felt I could not, in good conscience, ignore it. It also presents the possibility of some good fun.
        
        First off, in reference to all of your insults, how on EARTH do you expect to convince anyone to pay attention to you when all you do is insult people? Really, you have GOT TO CALM DOWN.
        
        That said, I have some points I'd like to see you address, if it's okay with you.
        
        1 – "What you are optimistic about is that you will supplant all the minorities…" Where did this thought/idea come from? Where in any post of mine have I presented this as a goal of mine?
        
        2 – "…power over the people you lobby to become lesser members of your elitist society." Same question, if you don't mind.
        
        3 – "My family has been in America for generations from the 1600's…" Bully for you. You're late to the party, sister. My mother was a full-blooded native American. So that sort of trumps your whole Mayflower claim, now don't it? Also, that might make it harder for you to answer that whole "supplant all the minorities" gibberish, but I want to hear your answer to this, as well.
        
        4 – "This member of the Wood family will hate you worse than you detect on this post." Wow. Pre-meditated hatred, Mary? Well, I don't hate you, just your snobby, "I'm better than you" attitude. So tell me, is this hatred something you got from the Book of Mormon, or is that your own idea? Just wondering, you understand.
        
        5 – As for the freedom of religion, I believe that applies to everyone, doll. Even your silly religion. The only ones I would say it should NOT apply to would be muslims, because their faith specifically decrees that it supplant other faiths and governments, and subjugate them to their faith. I will not approve of that, nor of allowing our First Amendment to cover such treason. Question for this point? Do YOU approve of them being allowed to practice and spread in our country?
        
        Like I said, I decided that you were a bit over the top, and far too hostile, but this post was overlooked, for which I do apologize, and presented the opportunity to ask you some pointed questions. I'd love to see your answers to them, if it's not too much trouble.
        
        Thanks.
      - Mary Wood
        
        This stupid re-rendition you submit of my assessment of you Petroskhan which has lost all of its good character in your placement of it within yours is, in addition, proof positive that you don't read my posts, thus, I have no intention of repeating myself for your pleasure to once again so disassemble my honest philosophy.
      - petroskhan
        
        First off, darling, you really need to take a basic course in English. Your run-on sentences, appalling grammar, and hideous punctuation would be inexcusable in anyone even close to puberty. For an adult, it is beyond belief or excuse.
        
        I'm not going to resort to the name-calling and vituperative nonsense
        you feel is somehow a requisite component of debate, but you should
        either learn some manners, or get counseling. Perhaps both.
        
        That out of the way, your non-reply to my simple request for some clarification is indicative of only thing. You have no answers to give.
        
        If you're not going to further a discussion with civil answers to civil questions, then kindly refrain from attempting to interrupt the grown-ups when they're talking. It's rude and uncalled for.
        
        Thanks.
      - Mary Wood
        
        (tongue sticking out at you)
      - petroskhan
        
        I rest my case.
      - Mary Wood
        
        petroskhan really thinks that I am just going to carry on conversation with him ad nauseum after that crude conversation he had with millergroup2 about me !!! Can you believe this guy. Is this the way some men treat women and then women are just to ignore such blatant disregard for themselves as human beings. To be treated like trash. And turn around and just wait for the guy's to take their turns with them. These guy are pigs of the first order. I have never seen anything like it. He thinks after saying these things about me, he can write a little note of reprimand to me about how I should act, pretend like it never happened and it there in black and white on the very page!!!
      - petroskhan
        
        Actually, I don't think you know how to carry on a conversation. I asked you some very simple things, was very polite to you, right up until you started being snide. I pointed it out, and then you decided to start calling me an idiot, refusing to answer simple questions, and told me that you hated me. Is this what passes for a discussion in your mind?
        
        If you're going to respond, and you want to be treated in a civil manner, then be civil. You'll be surprised at how politeness breeds politeness.
      - Mary Wood
        
        There you go again. Anyone reading this, look over pertoskhan's former conversations about me with millergroup2 and tell me should I treat him in anyway superior to a dung ball.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Try your utter to stupidity on someone else, idiot.
      - petroskhan
        
        Once again, you prove my point. Actually, you've proven two points with one sentence. You're incapable of two things:
        
        1 – Civil debate
        2- Rudimentary grammar.
        
        Have a nice life, Mary. I'm afraid you're going to be ignored from here on out. You are obviously a very immature person, who has a LOT of growing up to do. I would love to engage in a civil discussion with you, on politics, religion, or whatever, but your insistence on resorting to juvenile behavior, inane comments, and insults, is, to be honest, too low-brow for me.
        
        You are simply not intellectually stimulating, and are the most immature person I've ever encountered on this forum, or elsewhere.
        
        As I said, have a nice life.
      - Mary Wood
        
        I don't accept you are civil. You hide it well. Do your regular dirty tricks on someone else. You will get caught again, I assure you. And you know it.
      - petroskhan
        
        Okay…
      - Mary Wood
        
        BTW, ask Vladimir why I call you a Lamanite, your new name.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The phrase was also corroborated to by Madison and others.
      - petroskhan
        
        Interesting. I'll look into that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for
        centuries." -James Madison
        
        The only ultimate protection for religious liberty in a country like ours, Madison pointed out–echoing Jefferson;–is public opinion: a firm and pervading opinion that the First Amendment works. "Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance."
        (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San
        Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 56. Madison's words, according to Gaustad,
        are from his letter of 10 July 1822 to Edward Livingston.)
        
        Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state not because they are beneath the interests of the state, but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state. (Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773, as quoted by Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 7.)
      - millergroup2
        
        @petroskhan:disqus
        Very well stated. Funny how Mary Wood jumped into the bed with Jeff. I once insulted her Cultist Mormon church and received an earful of her gibberish also.
        
        I would gladly buy you a beer too! Thanks+
      - petroskhan
        
        She's a Mormon? Wow…that explains a LOT. But it does cause me to wonder about her hostility, and "jumping into the bed" with Jeff. Most Mormons I've met have been severely misguided, of course, but still quite pleasant. It's a bit on the surprising side to see one who is so far out in left field, and so incredibly hostile.
        
        Oh, well. To each his/her own, right? Cheers to you! I'll toast you on my next beer, since I can't buy you one.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am very persuasive.
      - petroskhan
        
        LOL Must be!
        
        But, not to discredit your skills at persuasion, if Morons…er, Mormons, sorry, are willing to follow the bizarre babblings of a convicted con man, then the job of convincing her shouldn't have been too hard. I mean, really…a magic rock in a hat?
        
        But anyway, kudos to you for bringing Mary to the Dark Side. Do you have cookies?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Compared to what? Talking donkeys? Giants? A woman being turned into salt? all religious texts are full of nonsensical stories.
        Forget the cookies. We offer deep dish pizza and beer.
      - petroskhan
        
        Mmm…deep dish pizza. Now I'm hungry…thanks a lot.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Jeff is not a Lamanite. You are.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Idiot
      - Mary Wood
        
        You are an idiot Petroskhan… I am the tip of the iceberg to you with respect to the Calvin-like when it comes to my religion … that is you and millergroup2 and no telling what other so-called Christians are regular on this site. … it just took me a while to detect… btw you missed my more impressive qualifications… and you think you are so perceptive
      - Mary Wood
        
        Petroskhan: I knew you are this type … here is the proof… your statement is exemplary of your "religion".
      - Mary Wood
        
        petroskhan is an idiot and his plea for civility is negated every time he types a word. Lamanite.
      - Mary Wood
        
        You millergroup2 are an idiot as well.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Millergroup2: This statement is exemplary of your true religion. I was right on the mark.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      You claim the atheist does no good, but according to your book of fables, there is not one person who does good.
      
      >
      
      As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
      
      Ecclesiastes 7:20 >>
      
      There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.
      
      "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God…" (Romans 3:23).
      - Mary Wood
        
        The Calvinists tend to agree
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The Calvinist's claim they consider themselves sinners, but
        their comments shows that they believe they are the only group that is
        faithfully and accurately following the bible.
      - Mary Wood
        
        To them this is not a contradiction, Jeff. If you read the five points carefully that's a start to understanding their motivation. Start with reading the points carefully at RR, your link, if you have not read them in a while. Everyone claims they are reading the most correct bible and are the "only" ones doing so.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Caution: You may become a flaming Calvinist.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        A fate worse than death.
      - Mary Wood
        
        concur
      - millergroup2
        
        Gee look at this …..An Atheist and a Mormon attacking the Christian faith together. Such love. LMAO!!!
      - Mary Wood
        
        Millergroup2: I repeat, you are an idiot and so is your buddy Pertroskhan. You are also chicken since you ceased the interchange with me with you nonsense. You think you cheap shots will hamper my intent to see to it that you are similarly discredited, if not debased. But I am a higher class then one who would insinuate trash like you have.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Jeff ,, Jesus could not have died for the whole world if the whole world was not in sin, which by the way includes you
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Sure he could have. It is your myth that he died for for the whole world, but you have nothing to support that view. You also have nothing to support that he even lived or died, but do not let reality intrude on your delusion.
  - MGM46
    
    Give it a rest – I think the whole country is fed up with the handful of you folks.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    According to liberals, Christians do not have any rights. but GOD gives us rights as HIS children, to live for HIM and to promote HIS COMMANDMENTS in HIS world. Any thing else is bogus because the world and the cross, and the BIBLE and everything else belong to HIM.Therefore HIS children have first priority which is being stolen from us.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      You have the same rights as the rest of the citizens, but you do not have extra or superior rights.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Neither do you!!! However much you think you do!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I have never claimed extra rights. I merely ask that Christians obey the same rights everyone else has to observe.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I merely ask that Christians obey the same right everyone else has to observe. List a few of these that we are violating.
        
        Of course we refuse to deny our GOD, JESUS CHRIST, AND THE HOLY GHOST but at the same time we give you the right to not believe. Your problem is that we should cease to believe in the TRINITY just because you disbelieve. Except you cannot live for ever with the TRINITY and the saved ones and that you will live in the other place, plus the fact of the pain you give our FATHER with your rejection, are the only reasons that we care what you believe, otherwise we don't care what you believe.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Myrtle: "Of course we refuse to deny our GOD, JESUS CHRIST, AND THE HOLY GHOST but at the same time we give you the right to not believe."
        Mary's response: I don't think you "give" Mr. Dixon the right to believe. I believe you tolerate him and that given the opportunity you would take it away from him in a heartbeat, on the basis of YOUR GOD, that he does not believe.
        
        Myrtle said: " Your problem is that we should cease to believe in the TRINITY just because you disbelieve."Mary's response: Mr. Dixon has never told you to cease to believe. He has stated a fact as he believes it. There's a difference. Need I explain?
        
        Myrtle said: 'Except you cannot live for ever with the TRINITY and the saved ones and that you will live in the other place,"Mary's response: This is your belief, not his.
        
        Myrtle said: "… the pain you give our FATHER with your rejection, are the only reasons that we care what you believe,"Mary's response: You are attempting to lay the ultimate guilt trip on a man who does not believe a word of this…
        
        Myrtle said: "… otherwise we don't care what you believe."
        Mary's response: "You are irked to no end at what he believes, no wonder he calls you a hypocrite."
  - Tom Duncan
    
    OK Chris P Your right, Christians don't have special rights as far as the world is concerned, howerver beleive me as a Christian we have certain rights after this vapor of life is over that non beleivers wont have. Get right with God before it everlasting to late my friend. Remember God doesn't hate the sinner. He hates the Sin.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      That is such a nonsensical statement. The biblical god does not condemn sin to hell for all eternity, he condemns people. Fortunately, it is just superstitious nonsense, but it is absurd to claim he only hates sin.
  - Mary Wood
    
    I never know where to start with you Chris P.. How about "the pot calling the kettle black" How is your country faring other there in England today? Have you seen the news we get here? Why don't you clean up your back yard before preaching to us about ours? Please. : ) You do like our country the way it is better than you like your own, now don't you? : ) It's the USA!!!!
  - bribozo19
    
    Its a landmark, get over it.Find something relevent to get upset about.
  - fliteking
    
    Ahhhh, overplaying your position again. Nobody is stuffing anything down your throat (Odd you would choose such a description, Sigmond Freud would have a hay day at your expense).
    
    Your intolerance of others is clearly displayed in your words. It is a beautiful thing, your handlers have targeted you as a simpleton and made you a minor / temporary political tool, and all this has happened without you having a clue! Funny actually. Entertaining too,
    
    Your anger and twisting of the truth will be your downfall. I'd love to be there at the moment you fall . . . just to see the look on your face!
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/Jerry-Alexander/642813293 Jerry Alexander
    
    Chris P…..the Gov has decide to put all gay men on one island,and all gay women on another in order to put and end,before long,to this Gay Thing.Outside of some Laboratory,(It`s alive!! It`s alive) kind of thing,Gay`s will vanish simply because they can not make babies.The Gay`s are taking a Free Ride on the backs of Humanity:(Human`s considered as a group; the human race}…The End.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Gay people are not where gay babies come from. They come from straight people. Always have, always will
  - jbreedlove42
    
    Respectfully, Chris, I see this view as common. There is perception and reality in all things. I am a former atheist and am now a believer. I see that indeed all have equal rights, but would you call a Muslim a hater? (with taxbreaks)? -whatever that means, because Islam demands a far greater stance against gays than the tolerance of Christians to endure it. God hates all sin, especially pride from anyone asserting that somehow their belief from feeling, or self interest is superior to His rules of life. For the gays agenda to assume all Christians 'hate fags, gays, et al' is sick and plainly wrong. I hate sins people do, and love the ones who do them, as I see one in the mirror each day who needs forgiveness for everything. Sorry, but you are misunderstanding and you must realize other religions are far less tolerant to homosexuals or even atheists. Tax breaks for Christians only? You are joking, right?
  - jbreedlove42
    
    Furthermore, NO ONE 'deserves' anything but death and judgement. You have no more right to breathe God's air, eat His food, drink His water or interact with HIS creation than I or anyone else. No one gets anything God's grace hasnt allowed for, as you and I are typing this by His allowance. I hope you can think these things thru before your time comes. respectfully, John
  - Evermyrtle
    
    Is there any Christian who has claimed special rights? Not as a citizen do we have any rights over anyone else and I do not believe any Christian would ever claim any special rights. That came out out of your infertile brain which pours out liberal lies.
  - Scarface13
    
    Chris: I pray to the Almighty that he might lift the veil of hate and dispair from your eyes and that your intolerance will be replaced by His Love for us all. We are all children of God.
  - petroskhan
    
    "You don't have special rights as a Christian." Nor do atheists, muslims or anyone else. So stop bleating for them.
    
    "We have the right not to have your unprovable notion of a God stuffed down our throats at every turn." Back at you, in regards to that idiotic collection of nonsense called "evolution". None of it is, or has been, proven, yet you insist it be taught in schools as science, to the exclusion of anything and everything else. What happened to the "equality" you prattle about incessantly?
    
    As for "tax breaks", most charitable institutions get them, you want to protest that too, if you disagree with their methods or beliefs?
    
    And if don't mind, I'd like you to explain, if you can, exactly how not being married forces someone "into a subjugated role in society"? In your usual flood on irrelevance, this stands out head and shoulders above the rest. So…those who are married are above those who are single? Single people must serve under the married?
    
    And as for "manufactured hate", there is no hatred here…just disagreement with a lifestyle. Is that okay with you? Do you mind if people have, and hold to, a point of view that differs from yours? Or is your "tolerance" limited only to those who agree with you?
- James C. Harrison
  
  All due respect, but the Bible speaks not so much of my "rights" as it does of my responsibilities. It's not about "me" so much as it is about the glory of God. The actions on the part of these perverted infidels should stir up righteous indignation in all Christians. I am also indignant toward these wimps that cave in to these intellectual punks who gloat over what they perceive as a victory over the Almighty. No wonder He who sits in the heavens laughs at them (Psalm 2:4). The war is far from over, and we know who wins in the long run!
  - ROBERT WAYNE
    
    I agree with you wholeheartedly James. But as long as politicians keep on caving in to the atheist scum intent on destroying this country, things will continue to deteriorate.
- littlechi
  
  if they make it part of the towns laws not to be changed they may be able to fight it.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    Want to make a bet on that?
- http://www.facebook.com/kamaut.longbabilon Kamaut Longbabilon
  
  Chris P hates anything to do with mention of God…. that is his privilege under the freedoms CHRISTIANS gave all Americans. We are not to "Judge" (OE= to sentence to death) anyone because of his opinions. But notice that the "Gay" lobby involved in Politics will and has never given any such kind of allowance for anyone outside of their particular sexual perversion. God doesn't hate Effeminate people, but hates the sin when they commit that perverted sexual lust-sin. An effeminate person was to receive counselling in the way he should go according to the only book ever written which gave man his freedom of choice and rules of living. These BJ's want their own sodomic rules in place that would enslave the population, eventually to force all normal people into the same perversions. Thus it must be that all believers in freedom must rise up against ALL people that do such perversions, and those who support them, if they want to remain free.
  - Mary Wood
    
    MR. LONGBABILON: We will see how the more worthy American law goes, sir. Chris P's concern revolve around YOUR desire to institute your "more worthy" compassion and your "mere" law, rather than OURS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA MORE WORTHY LAW and mere compassion. You mention "receive counseling in the way he should go." The world had the bible almost two centuries before we had freedom of choice, so NO the "rules of living" from the bible is NOT what this country is based upon. It is based upon the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CONSTITUTION LAW. Try as you will, you will not supplant it with your compassion. You see this is 200 + years old, the Constitution, it is not a new thing in America so you cannot quell the more worthy law, Americans will not allow it. It has served diversity in Americans well since its inception. It will even protect Chris P as it has other minorities against inquisitions and worse. It is the reason you all want to come here to experience peace that is the ongoing great American experiment. Thank you for your comment.
  - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
    
    First off, Chris is not gay. Second, Christians did not give anyone any rights. Those were afforded by Americans to other Americans regardless of their political or religious views.
- Tommy Stringer
  
  "IF YOU DENY "ME" BEFORE MEN, . . I WILL DENY "YOU" BEFORE MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN" . . . * Jesus Christ * . . . Quote from "The Christian Holy Bible". . .
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    “If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.” (Malachi 2:2-3) "God" Quote from the bible.
    - Mary Wood
      
      Thank you sooooo much Jeff. You are the voice of sanity in this insane world.
Zoe2010

so there are no churches in Steubenville skyline? sadly, many atheists are Jewish but soon the veil will be removed from their eyes and they'll realize Yeshua was born in Bet Lechem and is Yeshua Ha-Mashiach…
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  Zoe2010, Rom. 11:25, " I am desirous , my brethren, that you should know this mystery, so that you may not be wise in your own conceits; for blindness of heart has to some degree befallen Israel, until the end of the times of the Gentiles shall come."
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  Zoe2010 Rom. 11:25 " I am desirous, my brthren, that you should know this mystery, so that you may not be wise in your own conceits; for blindness has to some degree befallen Israel, until the end of the times of the Gentiles shall come." maybe steubenville needs more true chuches among their midst!!!!!
- Chris
  
  Yes there are churches – and in case you hadn't noticed they are not the government.
- relsie30
  
  Yes,many do not know that JESUS is jewish. The Old and new Testament were written and documented by Jewish men. It was Jewish politiacl leaders that conspired to murder JESUS not Jews as a whole. All our denominations today are followers of the Jewish Old and New Testaments. Unfortunately there should not be any denominations but rather simply " People of the way". The Romans gave followers of CHRIST the name Christians Just like the Roman Catholic Church was formed because they couldn't defeat The Word of GOD so they formed their own belief with bits of the truth to make it look legitimate. We are to call no man father except our FATHER In heaven. We need no one as a go between to access GOD, and no man can fogive you of your sins but JESUS, GOD in the flesh.BY the way churches shouldn't be owners of vast realestate holdings and the pope is a mere man no closer to GOD then you or I.No one should bow before any idol not even the cross it is GOD that we serve and to access him we accept his SON for no man comes unto the Father except through JESUS. We are sons and daughters of the living GOD and when we accept who we are forces and power within us will come forth and satan and his followers will coward before the LORD as the demons did from Jesus.
xoxozo

This is getting ridiculous…NOBODY is forcing these people to PRACTICE any religion. We need to stand and learn to mouth off as much as all the SPECIAL groups.
I do not attend church regularly but DO believe that we were founded on Christian beliefs. Little by little they have pushed their far left ideology and look how society has deteriorated. SPEAK UP PEOPLE!!!!
- Chris
  
  No – you are not forcing us to practice any religion – you are relentlessly pushing your symbology, rules, prayers, mottos and other garbage on us.
  - Valli
    
    And you aren't guilty of doing the same thing, Chris???? How many times a day do you bash Christianity and the fundamentals of our Constitutional Rights to freedom of expression through whatever means we chose to use, a cross, the Nativity at Christmas or anything we chose for that matter. If a Muslim symbol of cycle and star were visible, you would say nothing. If a pentagram symbol were visible you would say nothing because you would know one represented the religion of Islam and one would represent the religion of Satan. You wouldn't say one word or disapprove. It is your bigotry and racial bias that is in question. A cross on a building, or in public is a symbol just as important to Christians as nothingness is to you. The beauty of being an American where you have the right to do and say what you wish and no one is CRAMING anything down your throat. That is the work of people like you. You are projecting your feelings on others and trying to blame them for what you believe. If you don't believe in God, that is your choice, you have the freedom to curse Him and deny him all the way to hell. But don't expect me to join you. I will not stop you, in fact, I will gladly open the door for you. It takes more faith to believe that God does NOT exist than it does to believe in Him. You keep on believing He is nothing, but allow me to believe He is All in All. And I do not think anyone outside of a certain area has the right to tell others what they can and can't do. This is an abuse of powers for sure. Have a great day. Pay day comes…..what you sow you will reap. And on the Day when the LORD comes, your knee will bow whether you want it to or not. Again, you have the right to believe your way, I believe my way. Have a great time now, because sooner or later, there will be hell to pay if your choice is wrong.
  - Old Observer
    
    Ah, Chris–listen to yourself–and you accuse US of hate? if you don't like our faith, you are not required to practice it.Just ignore it. You don't like crosses? don't look at them. Don't like the Bible? Don't read it–but if you did, with an open mind, you just might have a life-changing experience. True Christianity today has been hurt by a lot of CINO's–named Christian by default simply because they are not something else.
Jim

Evil will always win unless good is very, very strong
It appears that in this city, good is very weak
Kentucky Colonel

Well there is no reason for me to ever go to Steubenville again!!! Hopefully this "judge" and the people of this community will continue to dwell in ignorance, poverty and subjugation.. Nothing like a bunch of do nothing trouble makers from Wisconsin sticking their noses into an Ohio community, The folks in Ohio, if they want the cross symbol should bloody the bastards noses and sent them back to Wisconsin, It is Steubenville residents right to use any design they want not a bunch of yankee carpetbaggers prerogative to approve or disapprove of that community's decisions..
Think About It

The way I read it :
" Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

CONGRESS shall make no law. Congress, you know the people you elect to go to Washington to make laws most of us don't like but obey anyway, not someone in Wisconsin with a typewriter and telephone who doesn't like religion or is very afraid of it and has nothing else to do. She has found a way to throw her weight around and make people jump. Oh, by the way, that Amendment 1 thingy is from the US Constitution for those of you in Wisconsin who don't recognize it.
- Old Observer
  
  The intent of those founding fathers was not to deny religion, but to prevent the establishment of one like the Church of England, which for many was the reason they left England. They wanted to worship God as they chose, not have one denomination be the only one allowed. Another example? Islam–which tolerates no other faith.
- Mary Wood
  
  also, the "wall of separation" needs incorporation into the minds of the people, here as well as in all countries, especially the ones who commit jihad, of course.
John Daniels

Why don't these people say anything when they see a crescent moon? 'THE COMING: A TRUE STORY OF HORROR' @ amazon will tell you
- Evermyrtle
  
  There has never been a time like that time will be, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!
Oscar Borras

All these people will have to answer God in their time. Then; they will not be so "brave" ; they will cry.
Helen

So in other words, it is okay for the atheist to say what christian symbols need to be moved but it is not okay for us to say anything about Jesus or our christian faith. Makes no sense at all. They talk about us being bullies what about them? If they want to believe that there is no God that is their choice. But do not come around and tell me that I can not believe min God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Holy Ghost for I will tell where they can go and it would not be heaven.
- Chris
  
  We are not telling you you cannot believe. How many times do we have to repeat it. You can't agree on Jesus Christ or your faith – even Mitt the Twit doesn't believe – he belongs to a fictional cult.
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    Chris,, You tell us we can believe , Don't do what Jesus commanded us… Go unto the whole world ,, Which means Chris, someone might come knocking on your door. Rev 3:20 Jesus speaking …. Behold I stand at the door , he who lets me in (to his life), I will sup with him and he will sup with me….
- Jeff Dixon
  
  You can talk about it all you want. However, the government cannot show preferential treatment for one religion over another such as prayer in school.
jenersea

Another GOD less and gutless community. Just keep on throwing GOD out of every where and we will just hasten his judgement upon this country. Remember to those who are perishing the message of the cross is foolishness, to us who are being saved it is the power of GOD. Their god is themselves and money. A shame that the leading citizenry of the place that have the most money don't stand up and say if the Cross goes, my money goes too. Enough places would do that, you would see the socialists back off real quick. Remember socialism is fine until you run out of everone else's money. For this community to cave into the demands of an outside force is beyond comprehension. Where is their civic pride? If they had any real guts they would have told the Wisconsins to worry about Wisconsin. They don't call the shots in Ohio. I guess the Wisconsins coming and getting their butts kicked in High School Football was too much and they had to get back somehow. Pitiful.
MollyPitcher28

Why we have these enormous problems with atheists, moslems and sharia, radical "green" groups is that, otherwise normal, rational people, caved into the demands of a few.
Now that they've been emboldened by the small victories, they go on to greater and greater demands until they control everything.
Precedent has been set and now we're left with an ugly mess that is not easily solved.
- Chris
  
  So why did you wonderful Christians kill off most of the Native Americans? I have enormous problems with hateful and stupid Christians on a regular basis. Teacher I know got fired because she didn't attend Catholic church.
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    Chris ,,, Just because they were WHITE does not a Christian Make . So in reality you are accusing non Christians as your self, Killing the native Americans. Chris YOU are the one that is Very Very Hateful Rom 3: 23 For ALL have sinned , Rom 6:23 For the wages of SIn is death
  - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
    
    Chris, disease killed off most of the native Americans, not the actions of Christians. You claim to be so tolerant, yet you are quick to call Christians "
    hateful and stupid". If you cannot get your facts straight and present an intelligent argument to support your views without resorting to name-calling, why are you posting?
    - millergroup2
      
      Chris is Jeff Dixon
  - Old Observer
    
    Here we go again! Chris—perhaps you would change your mind if you were able to get to know some REAL Christians, not the ones you have encountered who have made you so bitter.
    Or, are you just a plant on this site trying to aggravate people? At any rate, you have a lot to learn—
    - millergroup2
      
      You know of no one who got fired because of not going to a Catholic church. You are a liar. And there are no hateful Christians. You are confusing yourself with people like yourself who call themselves Christians.
  - Mary Wood
    
    Chris, what do you think of Thomas Jefferson's Danbury letter and the "wall of separation?" Please share your thoughts. : )
relsie30

We as a nation allow many to worship as they please, but we are a christian nation and the few that rattle their chains should be glad we are. If they don't like the morals that we place on ourselves then try Iraq or Afganistain maybe they will let you bully them as you do here. We have had enough of your bully tactics and your immoral lifestyle and invite you to leave, as for me and my house I will serve the LORD. By the way you will have your time before the creator and I will be there to watch you try this crap with him. I pray you wise up before you hear of the two witnesses in Isreal testifying about the coming of JESUS. You will have 3 &1/2 years and three days to head the warning and the invitation to join us in paradise.
- Chris
  
  WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION. That is complete and utter idiocy – that's called a theocracy.
  - relsie30
    
    Then why is there a cross over the dead in Arlington? A cross represents a Christian faith in reality it should be the sign of a fish. When I was in Nam I never heard anyone calling out to Satan it was help me Jesus. I will pray for you and believe me you will feel GOD'S hand in your life. So be it said , so be it written, SO IT IS DONE.
  - Old Observer
    
    There is one simple bottom line here, Chris–you are obviously a bitter and hateful person who needs to have closure for some life experiences. I hope you find it, because if you don't, life will simply become more and more intolerable for you. I suggest you seek professional help–seriously. I worked in the field of mental health, and recognize some patterns here–
Dave Wilcox

Why should outsiders be allowed to come into a city and tell them what they can or cannot do? It is their city and that logo was what they wanted. We used to be a free country. What has happened to us in the last 237 years?
- Chris
  
  Because it is a nation of equality not a village of anarchy.
- Vladimir
  
  That's not the point. The city used an image or composite of its skyline in its logo. Some people felt that the cross in the skyline meant the city was promoting a religion. The real question is why didn't the city tear down the cross? Isn't the cross still in its skyline? If the city allows a church within its corporate limits, isn't it promoting a religion?
http://www.facebook.com/howard.mctaggart Howard Joseph McTaggart

they should have gotten this weak willed city administration to get rid of the continental soldier as well cause he represents the foundations of the country which are based on God liberty and patriotism somethings the liberal left would like us to forget.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000123849151 Dale Patterson

Good doesn't have to be all that strong… Good only has to stand up… GOD Takes Care of The Rest… Clearly, Dr. D. has the right idea… Stand Up, and make the whiny jackasses spend their money away… Even as a principality, the citizens can vote on this issue… Where did THAT go?
NKM56

It looks to me like a skyline silhouette of the city's landmarks. How can the cross from a church in a city's skyline be objectionable? This is silliness.
relsie30

Next will be anything that looks Christian in our court houses and government buildings and even in Arlington National Cemetary. Sounds farfetched then keep allowing these minority groups to bully our represenatives and they will be sand blasting any evidence of GOD from our buildings and monuments. I imagine the next thing will be the giant Jesus statue, oh I better not say where the atheist will be demanding it be destroyed as well. You know the atheist and the immoral people are simply forfilling Revelation when it is written that these things will happen, so once again thanks for backing up our Bible.
coconuisse

OK, so we are now made aware that FFRF is psychopathically opposed to Christianity. Is there anything that they are FOR?
Mys77

All that anyone has to do, is take their pen and put the cross back in whenever they recieve paperwork from the city…ect…. and send it back to them with the cross back in it with these words…. We don't recognize this document as authentic from the city… please send us with the correction and send us back the corrected document… Thank you and God Bless our Nation. Continue to repeat this process until the someone at the city has the balls to say NO to the atheist. The worst thing that people do is comply and follow a law that violates their faith. Atheist fear that cross…. but the should fear God's judgement….
Mys77

Put the cros everwhere…. really make the atheist dream of the cross…. they are consumed with the cross and God is the first thing they think about and defines their very exixtence. If people take the cross or the 10 Commandments out of the court house…. then take your car, put a sign on it depicting the commandments and the cross and park it as close to the court house steps…Any time you go to a government office or court house… wear a TShirt with the 10 commandments depicted on it and wear your cross so the judge and those who work there are reminded whose law is really important. Kneel and pray once inside, kneel and pray when leaving. Exercise your faith and don't let the atheist deny Christ inside our government buildings. We will always win… and God is eveywhere and He is not going away
dben

Just refuse to listen to the idiots! Why should the rest of us be compliant and listen to the people who want to take our freedoms away? Just because we are afraid to hurt someone else's feelings?? Give me a break! What about the feelings of the Christians? Why should an athiest or anyone else dictate to the rest of us? What ever happened to the "tolerance" of the left? We as Christians don't like what they are doing to our country but we sit back and let it happen! Seems to me that, #1 the Christians are more tolerant than the Non Christians and, #2 – as I have always believed – tolerance indicates there is something negative to put up with so maybe it isn't the best policy!! I prefer "compassion" – if you believe in something that I do not – compassion means that we care enough for your feelings to treat you they way we would like to be treated ourselves anyway!! Compassion is kind and considerate of others. Tolerance allows contempt. Bullies are neither tolerant NOR compassionate. If we allow bullies to run the world we will regret what our country turns into!
Dottie G.

I am sick and tired of the few trying to dictate to the many. The few have loud voices and the many are way too quiet. I don't think you can be a Christian and still be a liberal. I am tired of those who take money to destroy Christian symbols and I am sick of myself and too many like me who sit on the sidelines and watch God being slowly attacked and removed from our Great Country. If we listen to one more Christian who says abortion is a woman's choice, Israel should stand up alone, white people are racist because we dare to vote against a socialist black man, I will scream. It is up to we, the few to take our country back. I hope and pray God hasn't completely forgotten us like he should. But no he loves us each and everyone and always will. To bad this world cannot say the same.
Evermyrtle

How did they win "freedom from religion?" The cross being in the logo was not, any form forcing religion on them. The only hated it being there because it represented JESUS CHRIST

It is as if JESUS were sitting there and because HE was sitting there, they feel a guilt that is consuming their common sense.

John 15: 18-23
18. If the world hate you, you know that it hated me before it hated you.
19. If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20. Remember the word that I said unto you, 'The servant is not greater than his LORD. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have ket my saying, they will keep yours, also,
21. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake because they know not HIM that sent me.
22. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23. He that hate me hates my FATHER, also.

I believe the hate of JESUS CHRIST has climaxed until the whole world has a massive hate for HIM and HIS followers and we are facing a form of persecution at this time which will grow until HE returns for us. It would be so wonderful, if we could show these anti-CHRIST people the truth so that they can be saved but the seem to be blinded by the hatred they nourish in their hearts for HIM
Gumbeaux

What happened to Freedom of Religion? If there is a cross, and you are opposed to it, does that give you the right to deprive Christians of their beliefs? Put up your own sign! Good grief! I am so sick of atheists who believe in nothing winning all the time!!!! Such whiners!! If the first judge who heard one of these prejudiced cases said, "Go jump in the lake!", maybe that would have ended the matter. I am so sick of political correctness—it is ruining ouer country. We practive Judaism–do we get angry when we see a cross? What would atheists put up? Hmmmm–they have NOTHING! Except to complain!! Come n, America!!! Freedom of religion!!! Stick to your rights!!!!!!!!
MalikTous

Thanks FFRF for turning Steubenville into Stupidville. I'll be sure to reject all FFRF communications in the future. I hope the group tanks and the university sues them for what little is left!
Texas Jack

These people are not atheist' they are anti-christ — how stupid they are.They do not even know what they are. A true atheist would not waste his/her time and breath to argue let alone fight about some thing they truely think does not exist. If they fight this and say what they truely are then the CHRISTIANS will come in numbers and in a peaceful demonstration as we did in the Texas town of Athens( when they wanted to remove the MANGER display at CHRISTMAS) and again we will defeat them
mesaman

Hey atheists, thanks for nothing. May a pagan god fall on your foot and make you a gimp for life.
http://profile.yahoo.com/RQSXJIXIII53M6WBYPBPI5I5HI A

It is trul;y unfortunate that Steubenvilel caved. If it had gone to court and had to push it all the way to the Supreme Court it would likely have won. Especially if it had claimed that this symbol was of an historic institution. Then FFRF would have been cought having to pay all the cost of the city for the litigation. We have seen this in a few cases with the ACLU. When cities stand up to them these organizatrions often cave.
LoneStar

How many Atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, They expect God to do it, to prove he exists.
millergroup2

Tell you why they buckled under without a fight. This town sold out long ago. Notice the "Masonic Compass" in the logo. Think I'm nuts?
Silentio

To insist on removing the cross , which admits that there are also Christians living here, is pure, hostile, anti Christian bigotry. And the city leaders who were too chicken to defend their city need to be removed from office. Such craven cowards ought not to have any voice of leadership in Steubenville or anywhere else. Let them find another corner to cower in.
Silentio

Cris P is another one of those who are determined to spend their eternity among all of their anti-Christian friends completely free of any polite references to religion. A really unfortunte choice but it's his so let him have it.
- Glen S
  
  And many of the "Christians" on this and other sites are Christian in name only. It is possible to hold true to Biblical principles in a loving manner. Yelling and name calling does not fit Jesus' teachings.
WealthyNot

Pretty interesting comments here. It is amazing that a group that believes in no God works so hard to try to oppose this God they alledge to not believe in. This group from Middleton, WI is one reason that I am ashamed to have graduated from the Univ. of Wisconsin. (One other thing of which I am ashamed is that I live in Illinois).
They were founded there as students and have grown minimally to only a couple of thousand members — nationwide. Yet they make so much noise embarrassing themselves, their base community, and the state of Wisconsin. (One of my kids lives near there so I keep in touch with info about this bunch).
http://www.facebook.com/people/Carol-Jean-Goodwin/1513718033 Carol Jean Goodwin

Why then don't the minority of atheists just leave? The cross was there before they squated there anyway.
John Munro

If they do not believe in Jesus Christ why do they care if a cross or the ten commanments are there.
I believe they should be hevily qustioned as to what they mean if they have no answer. It sould be just as in the military if a leader is accused of sexual hassasment and is proved not guilty. this person is charged with falsly making acusations aganist a leader. It should also be if they make claims that the cross is aganist the constution and is not they should have a federal charge aganist them. If it ever was aganist the constitution why was our society based on in in the first place. The declaration of independence. The constution, the prayers George Wasington made to begin this country. Why does it also seam it is only an attack aganist belief in Jesus Christ? This is a communist attack aganist the foundation of this country. These judges should be elected and held accountable for the personal rewards they recieve for these questionable personal determinations as to what exactly the constutition sayes.
- Mary Wood
  
  Now do you think we need a "wall of separation", Mr Munro? They are not going to adopt your religion, sir, that is my point. They need to fully implement a wall of separation themselves before one other Muslim sets foot in this country! It is the only way. We are heading for much worse if that doesn't happen.
  - John Munro
    
    being a woman i would hope you would research how women are treated
    - Mary Wood
      
      I am not sure why you said that Mr. Munro. My sincerest guess is that you do not know exactly what a wall of separation would do: I hope you read Pastor Leland's statement and the Danbury letter. I will have to get them and send them later.
      
      If a genuine wall of separation exists between our secular laws and our religious laws, than sharia law could NEVER take hold… on the other hand, if we allow the wall to come down Judeo-Christians will be in charge. Judeo-Christians will then be pre-eminent… What sect will you allow to be the top sect in charge Mr. Monro? And all the rest of Americans will become second class citizens to the Judeo-Christian sects. This will suit the Sharia law people just fine, because the country will be in a class warfare as you have never seen and thus will be divided and conquered as never before… we will be sitting duck for the fascist Muslims… its just what they want.. then I will fear my life as a woman… it is your policies that will bring about the threat of which you remind me. Turn your focus on just what has to happen with the more worthy secular law of the land and how we can secure it the way it is supposed to be secured. Then and only then will we be able to stand at the borders and say: "Do you stand by Law or Compassion" … if they say the latter… do not let them in, because every person on the face of the earth has a different definition of compassion. Where do you stand? I stand in safety by the secular laws we have in the U. S. Constitution.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        "The constitutional principle of separation of church and state has given Americans more religious freedom than any people in world history. Around the globe, those suffering under the heavy heel of government-sponsored religious oppression look to America's church-state model with longing. The "wall of separation between church and state" is America's bulwark of true religious liberty."
        -Rob Boston of Americans United for Separation of Church and State
      - Mary Wood
        
        I want to join this group, Americans United for Separation of Church and State. What is your opinion, if any, of their efforts? Are they successful?
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff, according to another topic on Zionica, the statement by Jefferson was a refusal to help the Baptists secure their religious liberities in a state with a state religion. Jefferson maintained that the federal government had no authority under the Constitution to come to their aid. There is no "wall" between church and state as modern atheists would have us believe.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Thomas Jefferson didn't view it that way. He had it reviewed by Levi Lincoln, his attorney general, before he sent
        it. Jefferson even told Lincoln that he considered this letter to be a means of
        "sowing useful truths and principles among the people, which might germinate and
        become rooted among their political tenets."
        
        Neither did Madison:
        "The purpose of
        separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the
        ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for
        centuries." -James Madison
      - Mary Wood
        
        Vlad may be thinking about this post:
        quote:
        
        Jacquelyn • 5 months ago • parent−Jeff Dixon: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (otherwise known as the establishment clause), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; (otherwise known as the free exercise clause)….what about this does everyone not understand IS ALLTHAT IS NEEDED to separate state from church. The phrase terminology of " Separation of Church and State" was taken from a letter not the Constitution, by liberal/progressive activist judges with an agenda.
        I never said the idea was anti-Constitution or anti-liberty. But what they introduced at the time in court opinion was not neccessary and set all the precedent for removing all religious/worship of any kind out of the public realm. And at the same time by placing the word church before state in that phraseology gave deceitful precedent for the next 3 decades to enforce their agenda one court case at a time all over the nation no matter what the people of that community wanted….END OF QUOTE
        
        Jeff: Does the phrase "free excercise thereof" in the Constitution, have similar weight as the phrase "wall of separation?"
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Sure, and it is not always easy to draw that line between the two. But as far as government officials showing a preference of one religion over another, that is easy to see as something that is not allowed. Which is what the courts affirm again and again.
      - Mary Wood
        
        Though Thomas Jefferson is clear in the final Danbury letter, the one actually sent, on the equality of the meanings pointed out in Jacquelyn's letter to you in this forum, five months ago, and found in the U.S. Library of Congress:
        http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
      - Mary Wood
        
        Re: U.S LOC finding which you have shown before, even in the corrected handwritten draft: I wonder what credence Petros would give you on this one Jeff… you certainly enlightened this certified philosopher of religion, me. : )
      - Mary Wood
        
        Not only Atheists Vlad!
Dennis

I can not believe the city gave into these idiots.
Marilyn K. Smith

Like the hymn, the words are self-explanatory, "Stand-up, Stand-up, for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross." One that cross hung one who took all the sins, past, present, and future, of ALL people and died to pay for them. He, Himself, had never done anything wrong. He came as God with skin-on to do that work for ALL. Deny Him, if you will, He paid for that sin. Dishonor Him, if you choose, He paid for that sin too…all to give you a chance to accept Him and escape the coming tribulation that we already see the signs of in our newspapers and on our TV. He will always be there as Rescuer until He comes as Judge and King. Overcomers: Our job description is to reach out to those around us and offer the way to life. It is their choice to accept or deny. We just go on loving, praying and with one eye on the sky, working until He Steps Out!!!
Bighoss

Incorporating a cross into its logo, and in particular a cross known to be associated with a local sectarian religious institution, is clearly a form of endorsement of religion and the city should have known better than to troll for trouble by doing that.
- http://www.facebook.com/Nutz4Cubbies Marcy A. Mathis-Baryl
  
  “Steubenville is a theocracy and is a Christian city…" per the article so I'm thinking no, they didn't see this coming.
http://www.facebook.com/Nutz4Cubbies Marcy A. Mathis-Baryl

I have a question for all of those that claim this is NOT a Christian nation (or was founded on Christian beliefs). Please explain to me why it says "In God We Trust" our currency? I am a Christian and what has happened in Ohio is not (really) surprising, sadly it's almost expected these days. However, I'd like to remind all of the believers that live in STEUBENVILLE……
Our God sees it all! Don't think for one second that He's not going to justify you in the end because surly He will! And if you're lucky, He'll do it right in front of those that oppose you and Him!
I encourage you to do your level best to live among those unbelievers in a way that's pleasing to Him and just sit back and……"wait for it" :)
- Jeff Dixon
  
  In God we trust has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957. It has not been on our money since the country was founded.
ErnieLane

The FFRF didn't force anything — they may have threatened, but the City gave in to their demands. The only way to stop this sort of thing is for cities to stand up — and if they lose in court, to ignore the ruling.
fliteking

Steubenville needs a mayor with some nads.

They should flat out refuse to change the logo.
Larry

people if you don't stand up and tell them NO ! you must be the most spineless leaders in the world. The people have the right to put whatever they want in their logo's. To show you , what would you do if they required you to put in a low life liberal homo symbol in your logo ? would that be ok ? That is their adjenda, once they scare you out of your religious symbals. Have some backbone, ask for help if you need it, there are ten's of thousands ( well millions of us that will help you when it comes to these homo lovers special rights. There are more people that will even tekll the law making judges where to go. we have millions of people here. Our leaders are thumbing their noses at our constitution and we can simply stop following their commands. Their decisions are based on liberal lies and their own personal adjenda's. It is time we the people show them just how powerful we really are. We are at least 80% (to) 85% or more that are beginning to disagree with the hippocrits running our courts and leaders in this country. Time to put them out into the street. just wait and see, this will happen and these judges and senators / congressmen etc! will see they are waking up the sleeping GIANTS.
Paul Brown

Gee and what is wrong with Christianity or religion, maybe she is an athiest moron or a muslim pig. This has all happened because of Odumbo/Osama, because he is a muslim pig and is NOT a Christian as he says. I would have told them it would be a cold day in your hell lady before that happens. Everyday we give in a little bit more to these pigs and everyday we lose a little more of our rights and freedoms and who we once were. This is the kind of life we really want? Someone better get some balls here before we lose our country all together.
- Glen S
  
  Wow, great demonstration of the love that Jesus preached. In case you missed it, that was sarcasm. Using phrases such as, "atheist moron," and "Muslim pig," does nothing for your argument and it hurts the greater apologetic for Jesus. Then you go one more step into the abyss of logic and become profane. Again, doing great harm to any apologetic anyone else might be trying to give for the cause of Christ.
  
  This poster demonstrates that the internet has allowed anyone with a computer to post foolishly.
steve

The logo also has a Patriot in it, so does that mean that democrates aren't welcome?
Engineer313

Where are the folks that live there that believe in the Lord. Just for once tell them no, and refuse to take it down. If the Atheist group does not like it, don't look at it. The cross, the sign of how Jesus died, was there far before the Nonbelivers. It's far past time to get back to the basics of how and why this country started. Has people forgot what was given to them, what the first folks here did to give us this great country. This is how we pay them back? Stand up folks, It's far past the time to fight back.
Mike

I get so sick and tired of the same old rhetoric from cults like FFR espousing the "Separation of Church and State, when in fact, they have no idea what the First Amendment really stands for. We need to form a new group – Freedom From the Freedom From Religion Foundation – FFFFRF!!!
Let's show them what separation can really look like when they get totally disconnected (more so than they are now) from the rest of main street America.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Fortunately, your mistaken views on the separation is not and has not been held by the courts.
- Mary Wood
  
  But please explain why Christianity is not a cult Mike. I don't get it. Is it because it is old? Is it because it is a better way to control the masses? I think my point of view has been tempered by the fact I "belonged" to Catholicism, then found out Pope Pius stood by Hitler as he exterminated millions of people…I discovered this obscured-from-the-members fact when Pope John in the late 1990's asked us to "forgive" Pope Pius so he could be "canonized" (meaning, to be made a saint in the site of God.) … and later when I investigated the Reformation and the Reformed movements of the Calvinist (aka the Pilgrims) I discovered they are seeking to make us SLAVES OF THE STATE… IF YOU DON'T believe me see John MacArthur's current controversial book on the subject!! Don't expect me — a thinking person to fall for any of these hypes anytime soon. I was really disappointed to see that the comment from A got a "Bravo" from you, because I stand by Jeff at this point in all of his totally reasonable responses to A's and to a variety of others on this site. Obviously all I have observed in my search for safe harbor in Christianity has just gone over y'all's heads.
Vladimir

“Steubenville is a theocracy and is a Christian city where non-Christians or nonbelievers are not favored citizens,” . Interesting accusation by the The Freedom FROM Religion Foundation. It is also the same term (theocracy) used by our friend Ted R. Weiland.
- Mary Wood
  
  If it is as you say then it is un-American.
http://www.facebook.com/andrew.j.pinto Andrew J. Pinto

They should be told to go take a flying leap.