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mormons

Why Mormons Are Beating Evangelicals in Church Growth

Our churches face a demographic crisis.

Young people are leaving, even the Southern Baptist Convention is losing members, and when you drill down deeper—comparing church attendance with population growth—the picture looks even more bleak. Simply put, when America's fastest-growing religious segment is "nonreligious," we have a problem. The Barna Group recently compiled the results of a number of national studies and published a list of six reasons why young evangelicals leave the church:

1. The church is overprotective.
2. Their experience of Christianity is shallow.
3. Churches seem antagonistic to science.
4. The church's approach to sexuality is judgmental and simplistic.
5. They wrestle with the exclusivity of Christianity.
6. The church feels unfriendly to those who doubt.

These answers are just what you'd expect, because they correspond to many leading churches in modern evangelicalism that combine nominally traditional doctrine with shallow commitment and have been plagued by rampant divorce and extramarital sex—all against a backdrop of extreme cultural hostility. In other words, we're about 95 percent like the surrounding culture and hated for the 5 percent deviation.

But one religious group shows consistent growth year by year and decade by decade. Mormons, living in the same country and culture as evangelicals, keep growing their church. Why? I propose six reasons.

Continue reading at thegospelcoalition.org
 
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  • Evermyrtle

    The WORD OF GOD tells us we could expect this in the end days. Each and every person who had ever lived in the world has had, a little something to do with this present condition. Some have prevented it for have going completely out of control long ago and others have have added to the growing failure of the plan of GOD for us, until now, the end is in sight. JESUS CHRIST will soon meet HIS people in the air, when the "dead in CHRIST shall rise first and the living in CHRIST will follow.

    • Proverbs14

      Amen. We'll see you there. God Bless!

  • Wesley

    Evangelicals have a commitment problem. they say they are pro-life, but will not stop using artificial contraception. they are for traditional marriage, but will not divorce-proof and strengthen their own. they are not committed to pass down sound doctrine onto the next generation. they follow Jesus as long as they do not have to change the way they live. they live like Christianity only has effects on the next live. Jesus told his disciple to count the cost, take up their own cross, and follow him. the Church is called to change the culture around us by transforming lives with the truth of the gospel that is affects the way we live our lives. the early church grew the fastest when it let their lives life out their faith. they die with such courage that those who watched them die at the games could not help but ask what made them so committed to what they believed. the church needs to return to that kind of commitment that if it cost them their lives the onlookers would ask what made them so committed to their faith.

    • http://www.missiontoisrael.org/ Ted R. Weiland

      Very well said, Wesley.

    • Mexseiko

      I agree with you 97%. The reason evangelicals fit the description you present is because we are all sinners. When I decided to church hop into my pastor told me: "If you happen to find the perfect church, please don't join that one because you're going to mess it up." That said, I think this is another conversation.

      We're are approaching sin levels that in the past prompted a major judgment both in the form of a flood and in another fire and brimstone. In an age when we are destroying human life at industrial levels, we sue people and institutions to remove crosses and the Bible from eyesight, Romans 1 reads like a prophecy of the day, and we wonder why "Christians" flock to Satan designed religions?

      • Mary Wood

        Don't you mean
        "Christians" flock from Satan designed religions,?

        • Mex Seiko

          No. There are many Evangelical Christians converting to Catholicism, Mormonism, and even Islam. The Church has failed to be the salt of America. Atheism, Mormonism, etc. are on the rise. If we don't have a great revival in America to turn sin around, we will be judged like Sodom & Gomorrah were. We have had fair warnings with 9/11, Katrina, etc.
          Edgardo.

          • Mary Wood

            Have you ever considered the possibility that the evangelical churches are NOT the salt of America? The Mormon church, by the way, which is really the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is NOT like Sodom and Gomorrah.

          • Mex Seiko

            What the Bible refers to as Church has nothing to do with denominations and not even "Christians" in today's sense of the word. The Church of Jesus is people from all over the world that have had a conscientious experience after understanding the gospel, resulting in a close relationship with Him with firm believe that God sent Him to the world where He lived, taught, and died and rose again to reconcile us with God the Father. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus shows His rejection of people coming to Him on the merits of their religious works. Many "good" people may end up in hell because they will be deceived. Because it's not about being nice or religious, but by trusting in the Jesus as Savior. And don't take that against me, it's God's will and plan. I trust Hs judgment and grace and will not judge Him as He is my judge.
            Regarding the Latter Day Saints, it's not Biblical, therefore it's only good to deceive people into thinking they're on a path to God's kingdom, but are actually on their way to destruction. The theologies in the mysterious Book of Mormon conflict drastically with the Bible. Like I said, it changes who Jess is and therefore, a lethal proposition. The Qur'an, Book of Mormon, Jehova's Witnesses, etc. all change who Jesus is and that's the key to deception.
            There's only one name by which anyone can be saved. The name of Jesus, the Son of God. there's no other gimmick, deal, or trick to it.
            mexseiko

          • Mary Wood

            Tell me, please, how do MORMONS fit into your grand scheme, Mex? BTW, to be honest, I am an apologist for the Mormon faith.

          • Mex Seiko

            Stating that I have a scheme only discloses what LDS is to yourself, a scheme. Being an apologist to a cult just means you're certifiably deceived. LDS is the invention of Joseph Smith like JW is the invention of James T. Russell and Islam is the invention of Mohammed. All plagiarisms of the Bible. Even Cathilicism, which had its beginnings in the early church but got corrupted after yoking with the government. Why settle for a knock-off, when you you are invited to become co-owner of the whole jewelry store?
            John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Mexseiko.

          • Mary Wood

            I appreciate your honesty.Thanks.

          • Mex Seiko

            I sincerely hope you search the Scriptures with the diligence you've dedicated to become an apologist for LDS. Jesus said "search the Scriptures carefully for they speak of me." He was referring to the Old Testament as the first piece of the NT had not been written yet. He met every single prophetic reference to the Messiah and the NT is the testimony of His ministry.
            Thank you.

            Mexseiko.

          • Mary Wood

            Mex: I just want to be clear: I LOVE THE MORMONS!

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

            That couldn't be more clear…you have a freakish fascination with said cult.

          • Mary Wood

            You say that because you don't know how good they are! They are just regular folks who care deeply about each other's welfare, their own families and know how to work really hard, are self-sufficient… Now Vince, really, what is freakish about that? By the way, all religions are "revealed religions." The all started with miracles. So really they are all cults in the sense you speak of. Have you seen Ann and Mitt Romney? The are as typical as they get. I love to read all scriptures including books and tapes from different religions. Nothing wrong with that. I have actually studied world religions quite a lot.

          • Bighoss

            No cult is "good" when it grossly perverts the Word of God (the Bible) relative to the very nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which is, in fact, what Mormonism does. Mormons who allow themselves i to be conned into believing the heretical doctrines of Mormonism have no claim to Christianity.

          • Esther

            What is your denomination?

          • Bighoss

            I subscribe to the urgings of Jesus, who prayed that his disciples would be "one":

            .
            John 17:21
            That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also maybe one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
            With the apostle Paul, I believe that THIS is how followers of Christ should regard the matter of denominations or divisions:
            1 Corinthians 1:10
            "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

            To acknowledge the legitimacy of denominations is to reject the Biblical concept of Christian unity.
            One reason that much of the world rejects Christianity is the reason given by Jesus Himself. They do NOT "believe that thou has sent me" because of all the divisions, exemplified by the huge number of denominations.
            Therefore I do NOT belong to a denomination.

            Also–I question the implication that the Calvinist faction supports the "most
            scholarly Protestant denomination." Calvinism is an intricate contrivance, but it is wanting for scholarship, as is any doctrine that contradicts holy scripture.

          • Esther

            Good point: "that they all may be one … perfectly joined together … same mind … same judgement" (but I hope this is not your justification for social liberalism… if I recall is your stance)… who is going to be the leader here? I hate to tell you but my mind is racing on several fronts, all of them political and scary. The reason being it smacks of a world that is strictly controlled. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Am I right that you do not belong to a denomination but you would join THE Ultimate denomination? Also, you do follow a particular interpretation, do you not? Then, who has written interpreted the bible you use? While I have no doubt Calvinism "is an intricate contrivance" that intricate is an understatement, how can you say it is lacking in scholarship. I have books that prove you are wrong on that count. How do you justify your position?

            Re: Your position on the Mormons. I have no connection with any of the past of the Mormons before 1998, when I was saved from the Catholic church by a request made b y Pope John to the parishioners to "forgive Pope Pius" for what he did during WWII. I did not want to join any church that was remotely associated with the Catholics after that … and I do love to fellowship with good people. After just a few investigations of just the few churches I had access to, I chose the Mormons and have never regretted it, except for the fact I can't mention that I am a member without being accused of being in a cult. My answer is, I was in a cult, I am no longer. The point being I am not under any nefarious control as I was under Rome, and I am not going to break the good friendships I have in the Mormon church. They are the best group of people I know, bar none… and if Jesus doesn't like them, then I would question Him directly, if he cares, he does. What are you going to do when to 10 tribes of Israel are gathered and they reveal the testimony they have of Christ? Do you know what I am talking about?

          • Bighoss

            The Bible I use, Esther, was written by about 40 authors, all of them working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The particular interpretation of the Bible that I use is gained by following the criteria set forth by the scriptures, as follows:

            "Study to show thyself approved of God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."(II Timothy 2:15).

            These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11).

            Unlike you, I find no need to rely upon the alleged "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of a homespun cult for guidance in matters spiritual. Unlike you, I do not add to the Word of God a set of transparently false pseudo-scriptures that are so full of errors and anachronisms that anyone with an open mind can readily discern their fraudulent nature.

          • Mary Wood

            Mex: I love the scriptures. I hold them sacred, although a large part of them seem like myths to me. (Thanks to Jeff, I can say that freely.) Furthermore, how can you possibly believe that is everything an infinite Father, if He exists, has to say! I don't trivialize them, I just think there is an endless number of things He will tell us. AND, He is not wrathful. Wrathful, is of Satan. I do not worship a wrathful God. Such a one is satanic! You will see upon closer examination of the Mormon faith that my faith is in good hands with these good people. At least they recognize that the most correct, but not perfectly correct scripture is the KJV!!! The Book of Mormon IS A second witness of Christ. Why people can not see this, is a real mystery. They seem to me to be jealous, especially the Calvinists, who freak out that any credence is given to it. Read it and see for yourself. I also, love the idea that it is a uniquely American faith.

          • Mex Seiko

            Lots of contradictions here. Loving the Scriptures and holding them as myths is a contradiction and an offense. Ascribing the righteous wrath of God to Satan is a major contradiction and an offense to the Holy Spirit. Doubting the infinite existence of God is a contradiction to biblical teaching.
            The Bible says that Jesus died while we were yet sinners. In other words, we are in enmity with God and He sends His Son with a message of love, demonstrated with His forgiveness AFTER we executed His Messenger of love. You speak of God as a myth and judge Him as Satan and wonder why there is a hell? Such a display of arrogant pride before the humble yet terrible power of God will, no doubt, meet His wrath.
            The second witness of Christ is a false witness as it declares that Jesus Christ, whom we know as God, the Creator of heaven and earth, was born as a natural human being. It also declares that God was once a natural person. How can it be a second witness if it contradicts the original testimony? BTW, this "second" witness is second to the Qur'an which states the same falsity that Jesus was born as a natural human. It denies that Jesus is the Son of God.
            A uniquely American faith? Here, you said it very clearly. An American Invention! This cult will take as far as Thomas Edison or Hiawatha could. Nowhere.
            Mexseiko.

          • seektruth

            Right on! and how can He be an "eternal God" if He had a beginning as we did as Mormons claim.
            The Eternal God of the Holy Bible ALWAYS was. He didn't become a god. the Mormon claim that he "became" eternal is blatant blashemy and it's sad that they do not recognize that.
            Yes, they are subject to his WRATH because they deny the very TRUE nature of the Living God that always was and became flesh to reconcile man to Himself.
            Read the gospel of John very slowly and meditate on each passage. Don't allow any external influences help you to interpret what it says. Just read it for yourself and pause on each verse one at a time and thing about what it really means.
            Peace

          • SEEKTRUTH

            Sorry, …"and THINK about what it really means."

          • Mex Seiko

            Amen!

            Mexseiko

          • Mary Wood

            Your post, the part regarding the Mormons, is absurd!

          • Mary Wood

            Regarding the beliefs of Mormons in your posts: absurd

          • Mary Wood

            There are a number of points I disagree with, but the major one, the wrath of God: I know from the Book of Mormon that mercy will not rob justice (imputation is only an accounting term, leave it that way, it is more complicated a process,) and justice comes first then mercy, yes, so how do you justify??? You don't. To you, it is a mystery. To the Mormons it is a matter of progressing through knowledge. The wrath of God must not be Satanic, because if it were, God would be Satan. He is NOT Satan nor does he bear remote characteristics of Satan. The way it works is that we will have work to do as we do now in the eternity to progress to higher levels of understanding of our weaknesses and we will even then earn rewards in the kingdom of our Father, becoming ever stronger by our own desires and efforts. He is more like a perfect philosopher king than he is like a wrathful, fiery dragon of a master. I know this is true even as a Catholic my parents never told us God was wrathful. I don't know where you get it, but you probably didn't have good French-American parents.

          • Mex Seiko

            There are many beautiful writings and thoughts in the Book of Mormon a well as in the Qur'an. If it wasn't beautiful it would be more difficult to deceive anyone.
            God is actually merciful first and then He's just. By His mercy He provides Salvation to those who believe in His Son's redemption of our souls through the shedding of His blood. His justice is manifested in His faithfulness and commitment to punish sin. God's wrath is not poured on the just or His own, but on those who reject His truth and His Son, which is His peace offering to reconcile us to Himself. Knowledge I only profitable if it helps us to understand His plan and His mind that we may know Him. But knowledge doesn't make us gods or powerful or like God. That is Satan's lie by which he deceived Adam & Eve and is still getting gullible ppl like you.
            Mexseiko

          • Mary Wood

            I have no notion of being God, Mex.

          • Mex Seiko

            Perhaps not you but a man that is married according to the book of Mormon, "he shall inherit thrones. kingdoms and dominions," etc. etc. etc. That 's not a notion, that's an illusion. Regardless, Mormons expect to attain god status through whatever "process" you were alluding to, which is contrary to the Bible. Again, book of Mormon as Qur'an are plagiarisms of the real thing, The Holy Scriptures inspired by the only true God, The I AM, or EXISTING ONE. They both read like a caricatures of the Bible. But these are dangerous works of the enemies of God deceiving millions of souls.
            Mary get out of there while there is still time. Get your family and friends out of there and save your souls by coming to Jesus. He's the only one who can save you.
            Mexseiko.

          • Mex Seiko

            Regarding the Catholic Church: the complete name is Roman Apostolic Catholic Church. If you knew her history well you couldn't help but see her as the Harlot of Revelation 17. It says she was drunk with the blood of the martyrs, reminiscent of the inquisitions and the burning at the stake of so many Christians who rejected her false doctrines. According to Revelation 17 she sits on 7 mountains. Rome is known as the City of the Seven Hills. There are more similarities but I encourage you to look them up yourself. The RCC has developed various doctrines that are nothing but schemes to collect money and influence. The celibacy doctrine of the priests is related to the church's real estate Initerests.
            Mexseiko.

          • DWoodPhD

            All along my parents taught me, in over my 25 years of my parental influence, that they (the Bk of Rev) is talking about the NON-Catholics, Mex. Whose right? At this point, I think neither. It's a great story, highly capitalized upon by others including Hollywood.

          • Mex Seiko

            I grew up as a Catholic and wasn't taught the Bible at all. As an adult (no longer under my parent's care) I realized my lacking and switched to a NON-Catholic church because they had this thing called Sunday School. Later on I moved to another church that preached directly from the Bible verse by verse. Evangelicals actually do not emphasize Rev 17 as the Catholic Church. I point out the similarities which you will notice if you pay attention yourself, read the history of the Catholic church and the Popes. Other verses of the NT clearly speak against Catholic doctrines. Jesus directly addresses the pappal doctrine by saying not to call anyone on earth "Father" as there is only One Father which is He who is in heaven. Please don't get into the parental argument the Lord's meaning is clear.
            Too bad you cannot recognize the power of God over time and knowledge. Rev 17 is a prophesy of things that happened through history. Ezekiel 37 prophesied Israel's reconstitution and 38 describes how Russia will attack Israel in a coalition with several Islamic countries. You can basically smell it coming. A little bit more than just a great story.
            Edgardo.

          • DWoodPhD

            You just said in the text I responded to that the Catholic church is the harlot in Rev. Were you not talking about the evangelicals interpretation?

            Let me just tell you that all this quibble about interpretation gets me absolutely nowhere with any Christian church… You know, I look at it as an exercise in the philosophies of men and is the exact reason I chucked it all to PRACTICE my religion — really of my childhood — in the Mormon Church. Those other churches are so steeped in the philosophies of men that they never seem to practice what is meant to be practiced if one follows the good examples, which I believe they are, of Jesus Christ, even if he is a SUPER HERO, like Captain America! I mean it. I am not getting bogged down in he said this, and they said that. I have callings to teach young people and that is not what I am going to teach them to do, to spend their lives bogged down is he said, she said, ad nauseum. I was raised Catholic and I have investigated just about every religion on the face of the earth and I found that I wanted a connection to my family life as I had as a child and the closest place I have found that beauty in life, is no artifice that I see in the evangelicals, the Catholic, any traditional "Christians", but is alive and well in the Mormon Church.

          • Mex Seiko

            I didn't mean to speak for evangelicals or any group. I've some explain their understanding to the contrary while there are books that show the similarities. Some actually believe that Rev 17 refers to a religious system that forms after the Rapture. I studies it and compared to various historical events and the physical location of the Vatican in Rome and come to my conclusions considering that the Bible frequently contains double references to events. For instance the desecration tat causes desolation refers to a man entering the Jewish temple and declaring himself god. But Antiochus Epiphanes offered a pig inside the temple.
            Mormons reference the Bible a lot but like the Muslims favor their own book. I find it hypocritical because Muslims don't accept Jess as presented by the Bible. Th same as Mormons, calling the book a witnesses or something like that, while presenting Jesus in a way not compatible with the original testimony.
            Life has man beautiful experiences, relationships, etc. but non of these will save us from the judgment of God. It is of massive importance to acknowledge Jesus a ho He is. Romans 1 explains how God judges man for the sin of not acknowledging as Creator. Family relation is not exclusive to Mormon. Salvation is exclusive to Jesus. Only the Bible has the truth of salvation. No denomination, religion, or cult provides it. Only the God of Scripture.
            Edgardo.

          • Mex Seiko

            Adam and Eve were not looking to be gods, their motivation was to be "LIKE" god. They just wanted to have Knowledge in common with God. The problem with that was that it required disobedience to achieve it. A second element was that "mistrust" was injected into them a part of the enticement. The roll of the mistrust was to question if everything that God spoke was unquestionable. All this coming from an angel who also wanted to be "LIKE" God finding himself being His chief enemy.
            Jesus humbled Himself and became a man. He told Peter if that if he didn't experience God washing his feet, he would never understand and know Him. Mormon and various other world religions seek to "achieve" a higher level through "knowledge" or good deeds, or rituals, all apart from God's own work. While the gospel of Jesus only requires "Trust," which is belief, which is faith. Jesus said He came to seek and to save that which had been lost. What was lost? Our trust, relationship, confidence, faith, and and our souls.
            Mexseiko.

          • DWoodPhD

            Why Mormons are Beating Evangelicals in Church Growth:
            Alma 42:25
            What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

          • Mex Seiko

            Exactly! God reconciles to man by His mercy and His Son, Jesus. Justice is the punishment r sin, while mercy is the forgiveness of sin through the justification of Jesus' sacrifice of Himself. Religion, rituals, or otherwise will lead to the just eternal damnation.
            Edgardo.

          • DWoodPhD

            The point is, God is not merciful first, "mercy does not rob justice" as one church leader has put it, because justice is intimately involved with the plan of salvation and our progression on Earth to become better individuals in service to people which is not terminated by death. Understanding requires an investigation of the literature, including the BofM. I don't know if you can fully understand the implication otherwise. This concept is diametrically opposed to what you have learned about Mormons but I believe these kinds of things will be clarified for those who seek it, now that the focus is on the religion and lots of questions are being asked.

          • Mex Seiko

            We may get tangled in semantics. I may've expressed this before, God's justice is in the punishment of sin. That's what the US DOJ does. The person that violates the law will be process and justice is done. If the perp is found guilty, he will receive justice and receive a just punishment as prescribed by the law giver.
            God prescribed that all souls belong to Him, and all souls that sin shall die, [Ezek 2:8,9] Notice He refers to the soul. Without exception every human body expires. But according to God, souls die if found guilty of sin.
            God's mercy is offered in Jesus, in that He offered Himself to redeem our sin debt. He paid our penalty and is open for all who accepts it. The situation with religions is that they deceive man into thinking we need to earn or gain mercy. This is diametrically false. You can't barter, purchase, exchange, negotiate a gift. The minute you PAY for a gift it ceases to be so. God will allow for anyone who wants to pay for their sins, but the wages of sin is death.
            Again, any religion, denomination, or cult that teaches that man can come to God's kingdom in any terms other than what God, The King, prescribed is deceiving and rob man of eternal salvation.
            Mormon, JW, and Islam are based on single authoring their own salvation, contrary to what the Bible teaches.
            Mex.

          • Pastor Dwayne

            Satan says , oops, everybody will know if I add to and take away from the scriptures, so, I (Satan) will jus write a new book and call it """a new testament of Jesus Christ""" , And PLEASE don't say God the Father is so powerful he would never let Satan do a nasty thing like that, remember that angel thing in GAL 1:8-9,
            Strange an angel appeared to mohammad and mormons, LDS' say that was terrible, an angel came to Joe and that is alright. GOD NEVER DID, NOR WILL SEND AN ANGEL To preach the gospel , OR set up a new religion, NEVER!!

          • Esther

            You were so nice to say please Pastor Dwayne, so I will simply say that you live in a fantasy world and here's why: Joe did not set up a new religion, he was called to restore the original since it had gotten so out of hand with all the different Protestant sects (Calvin, Luther, Constantinople, anabaptists, etc, ad nauseum. Do I have to post the horrors list again?).

            I believe Joseph in fact would have followed the no religion path rather than join the Calvinists who seek even today to set up a theocracy… They now call themselves Reformed or non=denominational, see John MacArthur's story on Zionica, I believe since last week or so. And that was just the worst of the sects during the "religious awakening" in the early 1800s. The reason why he (Joseph) did take the advice of James 1:5, I dare say, was because his family members were very religious and he knew his family needed religion. He was very concerned about his family and the dangers of a theocracy. You see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is apolitical, i.e., without politics, totally and irrevocably… how else could we have Harry Reid and Mitt Romney in the same religion? PLEASE ponder that..

          • Mary Wood

            scheme, definition:
            a body or system of related doctrines, theories, etc.: a scheme of philosophy. I like to begin with definitions, Mex, since these conversations about revealed religions can go off in every direction.

          • Mex Seiko

            My point is I don't have a scheme. I subscribe to the Holy Scriptures. It's not my scheme. I don't get to say who's in, who's out. I can only assess the Mormons don't appear to fit the scheme by biblical definition. LDS is pseudo-Christian because its author distorted the original presentation of the person of Christ. LDS is false. It lies about Jesus. Mormon people are Beautiful and good people, but just like Adam and Eve, you have been deceived by the father of lies, Satan.
            Mexseiko

          • petroskhan

            Very well said. Thank you.

          • Mary Wood

            petroskhan, the disingenuous one

          • petroskhan

            Mary Wood, servant of Satan.

          • Mary Wood

            That would be you Petroskhan

          • petroskhan

            You going to answer my questions, or just toss out baseless and childish accusations?

          • Mex Seiko

            Thank you.

            Pray for Mary my brother, and the president, and the candidate for president, and this nation, and the people of Israel.
            Mexseiko.

          • Evermyrtle

            Is it that we expect too much out of the church/. The church can do only so much for us, the rest is up to us. We must seek HIM and HIS will for us. The church can advise and encourage, we have to do the work, to do the accepting of HIM and HIS rules for us. We need to spend a lot of time in prayer and in study of HIS WORD, all of HIS WORD, we do not eliminate any of it,it is all pertinent, all put there for us as long as the world lasts. When we find difficulty in understanding what we read we need to go to someone with more understanding and knowledge of the WORD. We usually can find these helpers in the church.

          • Mex Seiko

            I agree 100%. Yet when I say church I'm not speaking about any institution or denomination. I'm speaking about the collective body who identifies itself as Christians. And you are right as well about us needing to read the Bible for ourselves and learning from it. We need to acquire that character that separates us from the worldly mentality. We, the Church, are too much concerned with the things of this world an not seeking first the Kingdom of God. The state of the nation is directly related with the fact that the church has not provided the salt we were supposed to be in the earth.

    • Mary Wood

      This will never happen with the evangelicals' churches : "
      the church needs to return to that kind of commitment that if it cost them their lives the onlookers would ask what made them so committed to their faith." because they are overprotective, shallow, antagonistic to science, approach to sexuality is judgmental and simplistic, exclusive, unfriendly to seekers of the truth. You can't fool all of the people.

  • Michael G.

    I know why they are growing. Get to know the people in a Mormon Church. My best friend tried to get me to join, but I was in process of becoming a Catholic. The people in the Mormon Church are very friendly, caring, generous and outgoing. But with all that, their beliefs are not mine, therefore I couldn't go any farther. I know I made the right choice.
    When they come to my house I take them on with their beliefs. Perhaps I can convert some of them too.

    • Theban

      In the end you are both in the same type of religion. Religion of works.

      • Vladimir

        You are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and you are rewarded for your works.

        • Mary Wood

          The five points of Calvinism makes the Christians life so very simple, they don't have to think, they just demand and condemn.

      • Vladimir

        Theban, you said, both the Catholic Church and Mormon Church were "religion(s) of works." Does that mean all others are "religions of no works"?

        • http://twitter.com/carverel Elmer L. Carver

          If you believe you must do one thing to qualify your salvation your are in a religion of works. Salvation comes by placing your faith and trust in the finished work of the cross.

          • Vladimir

            Mormons don't believe salvation comes through works. Christ's atonement was infinite and nothing can be added or subtracted from infinite. However, Mormons and most of Christianity believe we will be rewarded for good works. Remember the parable of the talents? The catch is, you must be saved before you get any reward.

          • Mary Wood

            I have a question Vlad. Do you think it is correct to think that talents are like any particular gift you have to help others, or is it just money?

          • Vladimir

            Mary, it is my understanding that the talents spoken of in the Bible are the spiritual gifts and physical abilities given to us by Father. Those that do not put these gifts and abilities to work will not be rewarded and will actually lose rewards.

          • Mary Wood

            Vladimir: I agree with your definition. It's what I teach my five-year-olds in Sunday school. Someone once mentioned its only about money.

        • Mary Wood

          Once a colleague became angry at me because I said we are saved "after all we do"… which of course implies work. He hated work and never did any that I could tell, others did he work for him. One day, frustrated, he asked me to study the bible, he would show me where his beliefs were outlined there. I politely told him "no," that it "sounds like work" since I was very busy I could not accept. : ) I have training in studying the scripture and it is some of the hardest work I have ever done.

        • Mary Wood

          In other words, works mean nothing to the Calvinist who believes that he and he alone is saved by the cross and all others have to do the works, it is a slippery slope to slavery of people whom they deem to be unworthy to be chosen. They are not accountable to anyone or anybody. It is why many Calvinist can treat people rudely, like they are nobodies, because the Calvinists believe they are the great Chosen by God Elites and nothing else matters. Go ahead Calvinist, tell me that I don't understand how in practice your religion works.

      • http://twitter.com/carverel Elmer L. Carver

        Amen to that religion is religion God hates religion.Christianity is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The church is not a building but the believers themselves.

  • petroskhan

    Once again, I have to say it. "Who cares?"

    Mormonism is NOT Christian, and therefore, they are NOT following Christ. As such, it is obvious that they are in the same boat as Catholics, Buddhists, and Atheists. In short, they have made a choice. Namely, that of NOT following the teachings of the Bible, and choosing to ignore what God has told us. This does not lead to salvation, and all of their efforts are wasted. All they are doing is causing more and more people to be led astray. But then, God will call whom He will. Those who will be saved, will be, by His will. But from reading/studying the Bible, I doubt many Mormons will be. But that is just my opinion, surely not a "judgment", and is based on what I've learned of their teachings.

    • mallen11

      Satan will leave any organization alone as long as they are not obeying God's will so that they will be able to fool those who do not know God or His Word.

      • petroskhan

        Very true.

        • Mary Wood

          How convoluted.

      • Vladimir

        Satan is probably smarter than you give him credit for. Best not to spend too much time on him, just resist his promptings

        • mallen11

          We need to keep our focus on the Lord Jesus Christ but we still need to know our enemies. Satan always projects himself as something good otherwise humans would reject him. He was the highest angel and most radiant of all yet he wanted to overpower Almighty God. Since his Fall he has come up with some of the most awesome things to keep our eyes off of Jesus Christ including performing miracles. He has counterfeited the Christian way of life with the Gospel – Gal 1:6-8, Ministers – II Cor 11:13-15, Doctrine – II Tim 4:1, Communion Table – I Cor 10:19-21, System of Righteousness – Mt 19:16-28, Spirituality – Gal 3:1-3, Power – II Thess 2:8-10, Gods – II Thess 2:3-4
          And he was NOT the brother of Jesus Christ.

          • Vladimir

            Don't know where you get your information, but Satan is not characterized as the highest angel and most rediant of all. He was son of the morning, which probably meant he was a late riser. As for not being the brother of Jesus Christ, I guess he just burst into existence.

          • Mary Wood

            See what I mean Vlad. Those so-called Christians have idols and one of their idols is satan. They vow the Trinity of The Catholic Church exists as given at Nicea, without any justification whatsoever, and they say that God created everything but they just think satan is some kind of special thing to be taken care of, and their God has characteristics of satan. They are totally mixed up and have no explanation except fearful stories to scare people into belief using the five points of Calvinism, although they don't realize it. Again, scroll the left side bar of
            http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ to find Calvin Critiqued. See if you think these characteristics are not practically indigenous in their arguments.

          • mallen11

            My information comes from the Word of God, the Bible certainly not the book of mormon. Jesus Christ is the Son of God the second member of the Trinity; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The three in one.
            Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
            13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
            14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
            Ezekiel 28:13-19
            13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
            14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
            15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
            16"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
            17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
            18"By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
            19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

            There is no other angel discribed with such radiance except Lucifer.

          • Mary Wood

            Three in one purpose Ms Allen. Three different and distinct beings. Not the Trinity of the Catholic Church, of the Nicea, the Nicene Creed. The Mormons read the most correct book, the KJV, and it is not totally correct, as most theologians also recognize. Are you admitting the Father created satan?

          • mallen11

            God created all living beings including Satan who rejected Him.

            Doctrine
            of the Trinity

            1. Not found in the Bible – it is a Theological word describing a Biblical
            concept.

            2. It describes One God in Three Persons
            who are revealed as God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit

            3. While God is one in essence, they are co-equal, co-eternal, and co-existence
            with identical essence.

            4. The Trinity is three persons in one God-head. Gal 3:20, James 2:19, Col 2:9,
            Acts 5:3-4, I Cor 3:16

            5. There is only one Divine Nature or Being and this Divine Being is
            Tri-personal involving distinctions between the Father and the Son and the Holy
            Spirit.

            6. These three persons are joint partakers of the same nature and majesty of
            God

            7. The same in consistence and continuing in existence.

            8. The Trinity is a true Doctrine but undiscoverable by natural reason. [It is
            a Spiritual phenomenon]

            9. The Trinity is described as one but they are different in persons. Eph 4:4-6

            10. 2 Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and
            the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. I Pet 1:2

            11.When the Divine Essence of God is mentioned the Trinity is One, when Divine
            Persons are mentioned there is distinction between God the Father, God the Son
            and God the Holy Spirit.

          • Mary Wood

            Ms Allen: You mean your answer to my question is "yes"?

          • Mary Wood

            James 1:5,6

          • Mary Wood

            LOL, Who could possibly object to James 1: 5-6? I'm stunned.

          • seektruth

            Sorry, it's NOT the "most correct". We have since found earlier manuscripts than what were used in the KJV therefore we have more accurate information. For example: the New American Standard Version uses material that PRE-DATED the material used for the JKV. It is a more ACCURATE translation: 1. using earlier material. 2. scholars have learned to interpret things more accurately as well.

          • seektruth

            And Yes, the Father DID create Lucifer, THRU Jesus Christ His WORD. Col. 1:16, 17

          • Mary Wood

            Mormon doctrine is very explicit that the Father created everything, that includes the devil. Why I do not know, but I have not contended otherwise. Are you saying I am arguing the point?

          • Mary Wood

            It is still thought the KJV to be the most correct by the LDS authorities in SLC, since Joseph Smith declared it so. I believe Joseph actually learned originally from the Geneva Bible, GB, since his mother and brother were members of the New England Presbyterian church at the time. Of course we know that after reading James 1:5 and he prayed about which church to join… the rest is history. If you go to Mormon.org you can ask online and will get their most current thought on the subject. Of course at BYU these studies are carried on continuously as well: FARMS site: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

          • seektruth

            Smithy didn't know Hebrew nor Greek and he certainly didn't know anything about these earlier manuscripts. They weren't discovered yet.
            Yes, the Geneva Bible because it was the primary version used by earl America.
            They are more accurate and scholars know better how to translate.

            I know enough of Mormon history. studied it for years and my wife was one. Thank God she is saved by the blood and is now a true child living by grace. She was astounded at the things Mormons believe as not all are taught on the surface. I'm so thankful she didn't go so far as to get the secret handshake.

          • Mary Wood

            I am a religion scholar myself, with only a B.A. in philosophy under a Baptist minister in a secular university, but primarily a scientist, and behind in my world religions studies, but I am catching up a little here and there. I take the Mormon dictum seriously that one is progressing with a testimony and some people do not even have one, and no one is decried for the stage of progression they are in… people are treated individually. I was born and raised in a religion of the blood and I am a true child of god… hand shakes do not bother me a bit. That is a ceremony not unlike the many years of ceremony I have encountered in one form or another in other churches, actually. Nothing astounds me about any churches. All churches have such light moments. LOL thanks for the reminder of your wife's light moment.

          • Mary Wood

            Who are "we"???
            Very likely not a recognized source of exegesis.
            Please address the question at or authorized source Mormon.org . I am not an authorized source for the Mormon Church in any new discoveries about the more true meaning of scriptures.

          • seektruth

            Some of the foremost recognized authorities in the World.
            While you are "not an authorized source for Mormon Church", you sure have hammerred on this that have said things against their beliefs as if you wwere some sort of aauthority.

          • Mary Wood

            As I pointed out above… I have my B. A (summa cum laude) in philosophy of religion at a secular university in Florida, but it takes Ph. D. to claim authority in any one particular part of the world of any academic subject. I am very familiar with the names of several important scholars in the field, have heard several, and likely have some of the most important recent books on certain subject. I know where to get them close by if I need one. We have a huge church library and can get ILL, inter library loans. I did give you the official website for FARMS on one of the links at BYU,
            http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/ . My doctorate is in science. But I am very well read in academic subject of religion. I thought I might recognize the authorities on the more recent interpretation of the KJV you mentioned.

          • Mary Wood

            Also, Seektruth, we are encouraged to share what we know, and since the Father is infinitely brilliant with an infinity of information for us to absorb, I am not intimidated by knowing so little, but work all the time to try to learn as much as I can and when needed share a little bit of what I know when a question is asked. That is a little bit of my concept of being a Mormon, being LDS, being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The secret hand shake is but a token and our lives and how we live it is what it is all about. Thank you for your comment.

          • Mary Wood

            The LDS authorities think so.

          • seektruth

            The LDS authorities said this prior to the NASB coming out. They said this befgore these earlier manuscripts were discovered. They have also said a lot of things that have since been discovered UNTRUE. We really could be at this for months.

          • Mary Wood

            Seektruth: If you have some serious contention with the LDS authorities findings I know they want to hear from you:
            http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/ click contact with your findings. They also seek truth. The church authorities have held to the premise of the KJB being the most correct since the founding of the Church, but I know the researchers at FARMS, foundation for ancient research and Mormon studies, you will encounter there are true scholars. That is a promise.

          • Mary Wood

            James 1:5,6

          • Mary Wood

            James 1: 5,6

        • Mary Wood

          Vladimir: I suggest you see the site http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ scroll down to find the link on the right side bar called "Calvin Critiqued." It is a summation of the five points of Calvinism, which the pilgrims who came to this country to flee the horrors of religious persecution, brought with them along with the Geneva bible as edited by Calvin. You may not find a direct connection with Calvin to these so-called Christians on this site but in time you will find,more and more, a likeness between them and these simplistic ideas of who God is and you will also find that their God, is not at all a good and gracious One, but a being filled with wrath and prejudice, as though he is none other than the worst adversary you could possibly think of… I ask you: wouldn't that be satan? I lived it in the Catholic Church and I do not have any connection with their God, but they are wrong about the God of the Mormon people. The God of Mormon people is the real Father having all the good characteristics that one would expect from a gracious and just Father. See the link. Here is quote directly from that 30 page paper that was posted on Jeff's website from a former believer in Calvinism, quote: "The Five Points of Calvinism oversimplify the profound truths of God. They derive their force from proof-texts rather than the general tenor of Scripture. More than that, the doctrines frequently create a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery. The system erects walls between believers. It creates a class of Christians within the church general who are supposedly part of a worthy
          "inner circle."" End Quote. Joseph Smith was schooled in the Five Points. Joseph's mother was Presbyterian. He was instructed by revelation to not join that church. We know why not!

          • Vladimir

            Mary, as with all blogs taking a position on a religious matters, I would consult with one learned who is in that particular denomination or an official of that denomination before passing judgement. Too many pass judgement on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint based solely on anti-church sites. So I've become a little jaded about "internet truth".

          • Mary Wood

            Vladimir: I have "consulted" with the learned in the various religious disciplines, read their books, heard their tapes and personally, have heard many speak. It was no menial task to leave the religion of my birth. And I am like you in that I do not accept gross anti-literature. The link I sent you is the testimony of just one person who has outlined his personal critique of the five points. It not only outlines them very well, it shows their positives and negatives. It claims to be a professional article published online at Auburn U., but does have a disclaimer. Those links may be followed from the article itself. Also, many "official" documents of the Presbyterians can be found at Ligonier Ministries http://www.ligonier.org/ in the works of R. C. Sproul, and others, in Pennsylvania at Westminster Theological Seminary website, http://www.wts.edu/ if it interests you to study the Reformed lit. Elements of many sects of Christianity are coalescing about Ligonier and such individuals as Mohler, MacArthur, Zacharias (addresses the Saints in the Tabernacle, occasionally,) R. C. Jr, John Pinter, even Richard Land (of the Southern Baptist Convention,) and others.

          • Vladimir

            Thank you, Mary Wood.

          • Mary Wood

            You're welcome, Vladimir.

          • Mary Wood

            Just remember, aa I know you do: James 1:5,6

        • Mary Wood

          Very true.

    • Vladimir

      A lot you know.

      • petroskhan

        About some things, yes. Thanks for noticing.

        • Vladimir

          Referring to your statement that Mormonism is not Christian. That's about as accurate as saying that churches that follow the Nicene Creed are not Christian. Think about it and figure out what I'm telling you.

          • petroskhan

            Mormonism is NOT Christian. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying, selling you something, or both. Since I know you will argue the point, and demand that I prove it, here are a few points that show it.

            1. Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible. (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461)

            2. God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321)

            3. You have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354)

            4. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516)

            5. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our
            children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and
            blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

            6. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded
            by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in
            Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).

            Would you like me to post more anti-Bible, blasphemous claptrap espoused by the Mormon "church"? There's tons of it, you know. All of it from their own literature. You can try to lie, and claim that it's "Christian", but since the word means "A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings", then Mormons do NOT qualify, since their own literature, cited above, makes claims that are contrary to what Christ himself said.

            Now, how about YOU do some thinking, and figure out what God is telling you?

          • Vladimir

            I can cut and past all day long as many on this blog have done, but none of this makes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints not Christian. It just shows that God still reveals truth through His prophets as in the days of Noah and just like then, people scoff at what is revealed.
            '
            By the way, #6 is quoted out of context. Do some research and then tell me why it is true in context.

          • petroskhan

            I'm confused…you're saying that the fact that you can cut and paste proves that God still reveals truth His prophets. That doesn't make a bit of sense. As for quoting something out of context, are you saying that you agree or disagree with the idea of being saved by faith in Christ alone?

            And let's face it, Vladimir, if someone is claiming something that is in direct opposition to what is in the Bible, you can't trust him. I won't trust him. Joseph Smith was a con man, and wrote much in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible. This is not "revealing truth", this is spouting lies. Plain and simple. The Bible is clear on this, Vlad. If someone tells you something that is in opposition to the Word of God, he doesn't speak FOR God, and his words do NOT come from God.

            You've chosen to follow the words of Joseph Smith, to place your faith in a man. I choose to place mine in God.

          • Vladimir

            You, petroskhan, cut and paste what you read without any apparent investigation on your own. You parrot what others write who make a living confusing people about Christ's church. YOU said I was proving something. I didn't say anything about a proof. You should know that God will NOT allow a PROOF of His existance or truths about His gospel. To do so would destroy our opportunity to develop faith in Him.
            '
            Next, you state that Joseph Smith was a con man, like it is a fact. You dismiss the Book of Mormon because you claim it contradicts the Bible. You, petroskhan, have obviously never read it. You appear not to understand the difference between contradiction and added upon. But then you probably believe the lie that God is muzzled since the publication of the Bible. That just goes to show just how cleaver Satan is. Satan has muzzled God in the minds of His children, and while that lie is believed, men are left to their own wisdom and, therefore, confusion within the Christian world will reign supreme. Without a prophet of God in our time to clear up misinterpretations you are left to draw your own conclusions and side with those who agree with you.

          • petroskhan

            Well, let's see…

            He fled Ohio with Sidney Rigdon to avoid charges of bank fraud in 1838, and fled to Missouri. I'm sure there was nothing to the charges, right?

            In 1839, while awaiting trial for treason (which he never denied), he escaped from jail and fled from Missouri, heading into Illinois.

            In 1844, in the process of trying to form his own theocracy, he had himself declared "prophet, priest and king". Finally, after starting a riot by burning down a newspaper that had done nothing but criticize him, he was arrested (again), and then charged with treason. While in custody he was killed by the angry mobs he had incited.

            Real good role model you guys have there.

            Now…would you like me to start listing all the blasphemous contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible? It will take up some space, but I'm willing to list them, if you'd like.

            A small sample:

            Genesis 11:9 states that at the tower of Babel, "YAHWEH mixed
            up the speech of all the earth there." However, in the book of mormon, Ether 1:33-37, it claims that the language of Jared, his brother and his friends and family "were not confounded."

            The Bible prophesies in Micah 5:2, and it is fulfilled in Matthew 2:1, that Jesus would be born in Bethlehm. However, once again the book of mormon disagrees, stating in Alma 7:10 "And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem."

            Those are just two minor things that pop to mind. Larger issues would be the nature of God Himself, the fact that mormonism teaches the ridiculous idea that one can become equal to God, and that God was once a man Himself.

            Now, care to tell me again how the book of mormon doesn't contradict the Bible?

            You are right in one regard. Satan has been very clever. He used his great tool, Joseph Smith, to lead people away from the Bible, which is the inspired Word of God, and caused them to believe in that load of blasphemous garbage called the book of mormon. It goes against the Bible, is touted as being above the Bible, and contradicts the foundations of Christian faith. Believe what you will, but at least have the courage to honestly represent what you believe, and stop calling it Christian.

          • Mary Wood

            If anything, God did the right thing wrenching Joseph out of the clutches of such snake-oil salesmen like yourself, and you just can't stand it.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

            You wouldn't know if you were being doused in snake oil. Neither of you apologists refuted the damning evidence presented that reveals the inherent incompatibilities in the belief systems, instead just glossing over them or pretending they don't exist. THAT is willful ignorance.

          • Mary Wood

            How well do you know Petroskhan, Vince?

          • Mary Wood

            I LOVE THE MORMONS.

          • petroskhan

            Sounds like a personal problem.

          • Mary Wood

            Actually personal illumination. Why don't you take Vlad's advice and find out what the Mormons are up to, b/c it is obvious you think you know Petroskhan, but really you don't.

          • Mary Wood

            More a personal solution, to European claptrap and you know it. Hi Petros.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

            You probably loved David Koresh as well. ;)

          • Mary Wood

            Hmmmm … Koresh? Waco TX (was there yesterday), Janet Reno, Hil & Bill, !990s, burned and killed several people? I understand people think Koesh was a bum. Is that right? That is as much as I "know" about him. I was a very busy mom when all that happened in Waco. I thought it was tragic that Janet Reno sent in people to gas and burn the place down, or was it Koresh dong the burning and killing? I really don't know the story. I know that people could not leave the compound. Tragic. At the time, I was a good student working like crazy to graduate.

          • Mary Wood

            You are illogical, irrational, by the way. I wouldn't love you dad just because I love my dad. Now would I? Not only do I not know your dad, he is not my dad. Make sense?

          • Vladimir

            Once again, petroskhan, I can say with great confidence that you have not read the Book of Mormon. Your post screams ignorance of the truths contained in it. You just cement my suspicions that you simply cut and paste information that you deem true without engaging in any verification. You embarrass yourself without knowing it.

          • petroskhan

            And you have failed to address a single point on which I was very specific. I have quoted the book of mormon, and shown where its words contradict the Bible, and you do to refute what I've quoted, from your own so-called "holy" book, is claim I haven't read it?

            How about you actually address the issues I've read instead of making feeble attempts at dodging them? That might carry a bit more weight. If that's too difficult, how about the same "yes/no" questions I posted earlier?

            1 – Do Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible?

            2 – According to Mormon doctrine, did God used to a man on another planet?

            3 – Does each Mormon have the potential of becoming a god?

            4 – Do Mormons believe that God is married?

            5 – Do Mormons believe that Jesus was the result of physical interaction between God and Mary?

            Is that simple enough? Look, if you're proud of your faith, and the tenets of that faith, why be so evasive? Address the issues head-on, and stop dissembling. You and Mary have both failed to counter, or even address, a single issue I've raised. All you do is claim that I'm wrong (or hurl childish insults at me), with NO evidence to support your contention that I'm in error. Show me where I'm wrong. From your own documents and "holy" book, show me where I've erred. Either that, or simply state that my assessment is correct.

          • Vladimir

            Okay, even though you won't read the Book of Mormon, I'll address the questions you are parroting off the internet against my better judgement.
            1- I don't know if other Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible, but I do. The Bible, however, is very accurate and needs to be read to learn truth. We study it religiously.
            2- I believe that Heavenly Father was once like we are, but that raises a lot of questions whose answers won't be accepted by those who do not believe that God will reveal His truth directly to us individually. Those individuals will rail against this concept, point to passages in the Bible that they interpret and not go to Him to ask if it is true. It is these who stop their progression. Are you one? I think you may be.
            3- All of God's children have the potential of becoming a god. But only the potential. Already a third of His children have failed before the foundations of the earth were laid. Others are fighting that concept now on earth without consulting Him in humble prayer whether or not it is true.
            4- I don't know if other Mormons believe that God is married, but I do. Families not only form the basis of our society, but they are an eternal unit and a fundamental part of the Plan of Salvation. I personally enjoy marriage and my wife and I plan on being together thoughtout eternity.
            5- I believe that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she conceived. If by overshadowing it means physical contact, I have no problem with that. I do know that Jesus Christ healed on occasion without physical contact if that makes you feel better.
            The bottom line is, scriptures are wonderful but there is no mistaking when God speaks directly to you. You, petroskhan, will refuse to go to God in humble prayer after you have studied these things, with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Jesus Christ and ask if these things are not true. And because you won't, you will never know in mortality that they are true. You will continue to kick against the pricks.

          • petroskhan

            I am interested in your viewpoint on these matters. By the way, before I forget, thank you for replying with some detail regarding the issues raised.

            To reply point by point:
            1 – You state "The Bible, however, is very accurate and needs to be read to learn truth." I find this an odd position for a Mormon to take, considering the following:
            Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the
            most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and
            a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any
            other book.”

            Apostle Orson Pratt (you know, the guy that married a 16 year old girl when he was 57) stated: "If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote…. Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN HIS RIGHT MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47) Doesn't sound like he trusts the Bible much…

            LDS Apostle Orson Pratt further proclaimed, "The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike" (The Seer, p. 213)

            2 – There is not a single word in the Bible that even hints that God was once like us. There a many that point in the opposite direction, though:

            Hebrews 13
            7 Remember your leaders who spoke the Word of Elohim to you, considering the completeness of their works, imitate their faith:
            8 Yahshua Messiah, the same yesterday and today and forever.
            (Seems like Jesus (who has always existed, along with God, has been around forever)

            James 1:17 "every act of good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of Heavenly lights, with whom is no change or shifting shadow."
            ("…no change…" sounds fairly conclusive to me)

            Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change."
            (If he was once a man, and is now God, then this verse would be a lie, wouldn't it?)

            Psalm 33:6 Through the Word of YAHWEH the heavens were made; and all their host were made by the breath of His mouth.
            (If God was a man, from some other planet, then he couldn't have MADE everything, could He?)

            3 – Show me any proof that mere humans can become the equal of God. There are far too many verses in the Bible that declare that God is unique, and that no one is like Him, for me to list here. Just give me any proof whatsoever of this claim.

            4 – Once again, show me proof of this ludicrous claim. Not a single verse in the Bible refers to God being married, nor even a hint of it. There are, however, hints of the opposite. Such as:

            Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection of the dead, men do not marry women, nor are women given to husbands. Rather, they are as the cherubs of YAHWEH in Heaven."

            Mark 12:25 For when they rise again from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels in Heaven.

            Luke 20:34 "And answering, Yahshua said to them, The sons of this world marry and are given in marriage.
            35 But those counted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

            Seems pretty clear to me. Good luck with that whole "being married in Heaven" plan of yours.

            5 – As for this one, your reply is a bit vague. Let me be more specific, and use material with which you should be familiar. Do you agree with the following:
            "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our
            children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and
            blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

            As for your comment at the end, I "go to God with a humble heart" every single day of my life. My faith in our Savior is complete, and my trust in the revealed word of God, the Holy Bible, is absolute. Many times within the Bible it warns of false prophets, who will "deceive many." Anything that contradicts the Word of God is not OF God, and therefore must be of Satan.

            I have shown you several places where the Book of Mormon does exactly that. I believe, Vlad, it is YOU who needs to humble himself, and seek the Lord with a bit more objectivity, and an open heart. The book you follow claims to be superior to inspired word of our Lord, and proves itself to be far less. The choice is yours. But choose wisely.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, here is your post with my responses:

            You said: I am interested in your viewpoint on these
            matters. By the way, before I forget, thank you for replying with some detail
            regarding the issues raised.

            To reply point by point:

            1 – You state "The Bible, however, is very accurate and needs to be read
            to learn truth." I find this an odd position for a Mormon to take,
            considering the following:

            Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the

            most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and

            a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any

            other book.”

            Apostle Orson Pratt (you know, the guy that married a 16
            year old girl when he was 57) stated: "If it be admitted that the apostles
            and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove
            of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote…. Add all
            this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN HIS RIGHT
            MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect
            guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as
            to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" (Divine
            Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47) Doesn't sound like he trusts the
            Bible much…

            LDS Apostle Orson Pratt further proclaimed, "The
            Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost,
            others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied
            and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has
            been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read
            alike" (The Seer, p. 213)

            My response: You are quoting a person who was trying to
            make a point. The Bible has been through
            a lot over the years. It is a miracle
            that we still have the truths contained therein. No one can prove the Bible says the same
            thing now that when it first came off the pens of the prophets centuries ago. It has, without question, had parts removed and
            changed. However, the Lord prepared for
            that eventuality. Mormons have modern prophets
            of God. God speaks through them to TELL
            us what is accurate and what has been altered. Then, we, Mormons or anyone else for that
            matter, have the right to go to God and get confirmation that what God’s
            prophets are saying is the truth. How
            can you argue with a system like that?
            We are given the right to go directly to God. There is no one pressuring us to believe
            based on their words. It is between you
            and the Lord, who loves you beyond measure and has promised to give you wisdom
            if you will ask with a sincere hearth, real intent having faith in Jesus Christ.

            2 – There is not a single word in the Bible that even
            hints that God was once like us. There a many that point in the opposite
            direction, though:

            Hebrews 13

            7 Remember your leaders who spoke the Word of Elohim to you, considering the
            completeness of their works, imitate their faith:

            8 Yahshua Messiah, the same yesterday and today and forever.

            (Seems like Jesus (who has always existed, along with God, has been around
            forever)

            James 1:17 "every act of good giving and every
            perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of Heavenly lights,
            with whom is no change or shifting shadow."

            ("…no change…" sounds fairly conclusive to me)

            Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change."

            (If he was once a man, and is now God, then this verse would be a lie, wouldn't
            it?)

            Psalm 33:6 Through the Word of YAHWEH the heavens were
            made; and all their host were made by the breath of His mouth.

            (If God was a man, from some other planet, then he couldn't have MADE
            everything, could He?)

            You are well into
            the meat of the gospel before you have had the milk. When Jesus Christ revealed the doctrine of
            the sacrament, many who were not ready said that it was a hard thing and
            followed Him no more. This is a hard
            thing because it is something restored and like the ancient Jews, you are most
            likely to reject something you are hearing for the first time that is outside
            the scriptures you have accepted all your life.
            And so it was with the ancient Jews.

            Since you believe
            that God inspires you I would recommend that you ask Him if your interpretation
            of those passages you quoted and similar passages is true. Are they referring to God’s consistency in
            dealing with us or revealing information on His origin? This is one more reason why we need modern
            prophets of God. If you think about it, all
            discussion boils down to that question:
            Are the [Mormon] prophets, of God or not? If they are of God, a most wonderful thing is
            transpiring among us in modern times.

            3 – Show me any proof that mere humans can become the
            equal of God. There are far too many verses in the Bible that declare that God
            is unique, and that no one is like Him, for me to list here. Just give me any
            proof whatsoever of this claim.

            I can’t show you
            any proof that mere humans can become the equal of God. God will not allow a proof of Him or His
            gospel, you know that. We will never
            become the equal of God because He is progressing. His progress is not in gaining more
            knowledge, power, faith, love, etc for He has all of that. He is gaining more glory. All glory be to God. We can become gods, but we can never be His
            equal. We are joint heirs with Jesus
            Christ and all that the Father has, He will give to us. Then we will be gods. But all of this is possible only because Jesus
            Christ atoned for our sins AND we repent and follow His commandments.

            4 – Once again, show me proof of this ludicrous claim.
            Not a single verse in the Bible refers to God being married, nor even a hint of
            it. There are, however, hints of the opposite. Such as:

            Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection of the dead,
            men do not marry women, nor are women given to husbands. Rather, they are as
            the cherubs of YAHWEH in Heaven."

            Mark 12:25 For when they rise again from the dead, they
            neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels in Heaven.

            Luke 20:34 "And answering, Yahshua said to them, The
            sons of this world marry and are given in marriage.

            35 But those counted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the
            dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

            Seems pretty clear to me. Good luck with that whole
            "being married in Heaven" plan of yours.

            Private
            interpretation of the scriptures is a tricky thing. That is why we leave it up to the Lord to
            inspire His prophets who then enlighten us.
            Those passages warn that in the resurrection it is too late to marry. The ordinance of sealing for eternity must be
            performed by those in the flesh on earth before the resurrection is complete
            and cannot be performed by resurrected beings.
            Those that do not partake of this ordinance in the flesh or refuse it
            when it is performed for them by their living posterity after they are dead,
            will, nevertheless, have a place in heaven, but not with their spouses and they
            will not be able to have increase.

            5 – As for this one, your reply is a
            bit vague. Let me be more specific, and use material with which you should be
            familiar. Do you agree with the following:

            "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our

            children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and

            blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal
            of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

            Yes, I agree with what
            you quoted, although the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine. Let me
            add this: you seem more concerned with the
            “how”, perhaps you should be more concerned with “why”. It makes no difference how God does
            something if you don’t understand and accept why He did it.

            As for your comment at the end, I "go to God with a
            humble heart" every single day of my life. My faith in our Savior is
            complete, and my trust in the revealed word of God, the Holy Bible, is
            absolute. Many times within the Bible it warns of false prophets, who will
            "deceive many." Anything that contradicts the Word of God is not OF
            God, and therefore must be of Satan.

            I have shown you several places where the Book of Mormon
            does exactly that. I believe, Vlad, it is YOU who needs to humble himself, and
            seek the Lord with a bit more objectivity, and an open heart. The book you
            follow claims to be superior to inspired word of our Lord, and proves itself to
            be far less. The choice is yours. But choose wisely.

            I am glad you go
            to God with a humble heart. I am sorry
            that you have bought the evil concept that God no longer speaks to His children
            through His prophets. And that no more
            scripture will be brought forth. As long
            as you believe this lie, you will rely only on your and others interpretations of
            the Bible and not know all that the Author has and will revealed. This muzzling of God in the minds of His
            children is one of the greatest triumphs of Satan. I fear that Satan is winning a great victory over
            you. We, Mormons, believe all that God has
            revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal
            many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. I grieve that you will refuse to listen and
            must remain without the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

          • petroskhan

            "You are quoting a person who was trying to make a point."
            He failed. Badly. Anyone can throw out claims, accusations, etc. Proving them is another thing entirely.

            "It has, without question, had parts removed and changed."
            And your proof would be…? It is not without question to me, and the vast majority of Christians worldwide. You see, the point you're missing is that the book of mormon goes against what the Bible teaches. You can't say on the one hand that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and then, because you want to book of mormon to be true, claim that it's not. The earliest existing manuscripts of virtually every book of the Bible are practically the same as the Bible we read today.

            In regards to the second point responses, you came close to the truth near the end of your reply. "Are the [Mormon] prophets, of God or not?" This is the heart of the matter, and where all your answers will be found. The Bible is very clear. In the end times, there will be false prophets, saying things that are not of God, and that we need to compare what everyone and anyone tells us to His inspired Words in the Bible. Should anyone attempt to teach anything that is counter to His word, then he is NOT speaking for God. The doctrines of the Mormon church fail this test. Most, if not all, of its foundational principles are in direct opposition to the teachings of the Bible, and therefore should be disregarded as false. This is not my opinion, this is what the Bible teaches us.

            As for the third point, "all that the Father has, He will give to us. Then we will be gods." No. Just plain no. The Bible says that after God establishes His kingdom here on earth, we will becomes as the angels are. Not equal to Him, not gods. Just on par with the angels. Teaching or wanting more is to go against what our Father has planned for us.

            In regards to the fourth, I am not interpreting anything. I read what God has told us, and accept that He has told me the truth. It is you who are attempting to interpret the verses, in order to make them fit into the teachings of mormonism. If we accept that God is telling us the truth, then we see that since the angels do not marry, are not married, neither shall we be. Plain and simple, there is to be no marriage after this world is done. There will be no need for such things after that point.

            In agreeing with what I quoted, doctrine or not, you are stating that you disagree with the Bible, and deny therefore that Christ was the fulfillment of prophecy. You deny the veracity of the entire purpose of His birth, as well. I find one part of your response interesting:
            "I am sorry that you have bought the evil concept that God no longer speaks to His children through His prophets."
            I haven't bought into nothing "evil"; I apply the standards of the Bible to anyone who claims to be a prophet. Joseph Smith fails completely in this regard. His teachings are contradictory, go against the most fundamental tenets of Christianity, and are therefore NOT of God. You can't argue with the Bible, then claim you are following God's teachings. That dog don't hunt.
            " I fear that Satan is winning a great victory over you." Well, tend to the log in your own eye, brother. The Bible says in several places that false prophets will arise, and will deceive a great many people. The Bible gives us tests to apply to anyone claiming to be speaking for God. You are ignoring these passages because you choose to buy into the teachings of a man who fails the tests of the Bible.

            Put it this way.
            Where do we learn of Satan? From the Bible.
            Where do learn of God? From the Bible.
            Where do we learn of His teachings, and of His plan for our Salvation? From the Bible.
            Where are we warned to beware of false teachings and false prophets? From the Bible.

            The origin of these concepts is the millenias-old teaching of the Bible. Contrasted with this, we have a book full of teachings, ideas, and principles that contradict the very source of our belief system, and that fails every test we are told to apply towards anyone who claims to speak on behalf of God.

            I don't refuse to listen. I refuse to accept false doctrine. I refuse to accept those who lie, and claim that they speak for our Father while contradicting what He tells us.

            You want to believe that there must be something more, some great secret that you have uncovered. You seem to want think that you are part of some group that is not like all the others, or that you have progressed beyond where others have gone, and so you wish to believe that the Book of Mormon is some great truth that you must spread to others, while failing to apply the simplest tests the Bible gives us to ascertain its veracity.

            I am deeply afraid, Vlad, that it is YOU are without the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. You need to decide what's more important to you. Following God, or following Joseph Smith.

          • Vladimir

            You say, without any evidence presented that, "the book of mormon goes against what the Bible teaches". Two can play that game. You are wrong because it doesn't. The Bible and Book of Mormon are not in conflict.
            '
            True, there will be false prophets, but the Bible does not say that there will not be any more prophets of God. If you really want to know if someone is a prophet, the Bible says, by their fruits you will know them. The Bible also says you can go directly to God for confirmation, but you haven't acknowledged that concept, yet, and you've been given plenty of nudges in that direction.
            '
            The Bible doesn't state that we cannot ultimately become gods. In fact, If we are given all that our Heavenly Father has, like is stated in the Bible, what then do we lack to being gods?
            '
            You said, the Book of Mormon is a book full of teachings, ideas, and principles that contradict the very source of our belief system. No one could say that who has read it. You are judging a book that is a mystery to you and stating it conflicts with the teachings, ideas and principle contained in the Bible. Do you really expect me to believe that you are a seeker of truth after making that statement?
            '
            You and I could go round and round chasing down every lie that you believe about the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith or the doctrines of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. But your pride in your learning is too strong and your life is too short for you to overcome your apparent abstinence.
            '
            If you have some honest seeking questions that you would like answers to, I will try my best. But responding to gratuitous attacks that have been rebutted and published on the internet is, frankly, a waste of my time and yours.

          • petroskhan

            You know, in one very real sense, I agree with you. This is a waste of time.

            I presented clear and obvious references from both the teachings of the mormons, and the Bible, that were clearly in contradiction. You want to take this discussion back to square one, and claim that I've presented no proof? Who have I been discussing this with? What part of this conversation have you missed? I've been very clear, I've quoted the Bible and Mormon sources, and they have been clearly in opposition to each other.

            You, sir, are a liar. The truth is something with which you are either not familiar, or you have refused to recognize or acknowledge it because of your devotion to following the blasphemous teachings of your master Satan.

            Refer back to the beginnings of this discussion, if you want to preserve a shred of honesty. I have clearly shown where the Satanic teachings of Mormonism have nothing to do with the precepts the Bible, and now you attempt to dissemble in the feeblest manner possible by claiming that no proof has been given?

            "True, there will be false prophets, but the Bible does not say that
            there will not be any more prophets of God. If you really want to know
            if someone is a prophet, the Bible says, by their fruits you will know
            them." Precisely my point, which you feebly attempt to sidestep. The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. Undeniably, and irrefutably, in more ways than I've shown, as you well know. THAT is the test of which you speak. Those are the fruits by which these false prophets will be known. Joseph Smith fits that description perfectly. To say otherwise is a lie.

            "The Bible doesn't state that we cannot ultimately become gods." Liar. The Bible clearly states that we will become "as the angels." NOT GODS. Not equal to God in even the remotest sense. We will be worshiping Him in His kingdom here on earth. Nothing else. These delusions of future grandeur you hold so dear are the path to damnation forged by Satan. Follow his footsteps at your peril. Just don't ask me to join you.

            "You are judging a book that is a mystery to you and stating it
            conflicts with the teachings, ideas and principle contained in the
            Bible. Do you really expect me to believe that you are a seeker of
            truth after making that statement?" There is nothing mysterious about that collection of lies, blasphemies, and delusions. I've read it. It contains nothing of merit, and is no more holy than Satans jockstrap. I am, however, NOT a seeker of truth. I've found it. It's called the Bible. I do seek to become closer to God, and our Savior, every day of my life. That ridiculous book of Mormonism would only take a fool in the opposite direction. I'll stick to my Bible. You should try reading one sometime.

            "If you have some honest seeking questions that you would like answers to, I will try my best." You will? I can't tell that from your replies. You've lied, dissembled, and avoided the issue at every turn. Not a single point of my original list of questions to you is answered, refuted or even directly addressed.

            "But responding to gratuitous attacks that have been rebutted and
            published on the internet is, frankly, a waste of my time and yours." Show me any refutation of a single point I've presented to you. Just one. Until you are willing to honestly address these issues, and show clear proof that the Book of Mormon follows in the footsteps of the Bible, and does NOT fail every test the Bible gives us for determining if a "prophet" is of God, then I agree that further discourse is a waste of time.

          • Vladimir

            I have not called you a liar, because I believe that you are ignorant, but you have called me a liar You could have at least extended me the same courtesy. I hope you are not willfully ignorant but I fear that you are so prideful that you will not read the Book of Mormon for yourself. Let me warn you that if you eventually do read the Book of Mormon, expect to be embarrassed by all that you've said about it. You will find out first hand that it is in perfect harmony with Biblical truths.
            '
            You will find out that it contains more, yes more, about the God's plan for us. Early on you will discover a principle that you probably already believe, but it is not stated in the Bible so succinctly. The principle was revealed to a prophet of God and he said, "for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
            '
            Now, you have read some of the Book of Mormon and you didn't turn to stone. Don't be afraid. Invest a fraction of the time you've spent on websites run by the enemies of the Lord's church in reading His second witness of His Son, the Book of Mormon.

          • petroskhan

            You have not called me a liar because I have not lied to you. Every statement I have made to you has been true and verifiable. I have extended every courtesy towards you which the conversation and your comments have merited. If you have decided to take umbrage at my use of the term "liar" I would like to point out the definition of the word. We can start with the word "lie":

            According to Merriam-Webster (I hope we can agree to trust their definition), "Lie" is defined thus:
            "1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
            2: to create a false or misleading impression"

            Now, since I have shown previously that basic Mormon principles are in direct opposition to the words of the Bible, and you claimed both that I did not show this, and that the Book of Mormon is NOT, this would constitute what is called a "lie".

            A person who lies is called a liar. Were I to claim that you had been forthright, correct, and/or honest, that would make me a liar. You are deliberately making statements which you know to be untrue, statements which are easily proven to be untrue, and you represent them as truth. This is, unfortunately, the definition of lying. If you feel slighted or insulted, I do apologize. I stand by the statement, and re-iterate: You are lying.

            I have quoted to you several principles of Mormon doctrine. You have not answered or refuted a single one. I have shown where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. You have failed to show how I am either misquoting or mistaken in any way. All you have done is toss out unfounded and vague protestations, and claimed that I do not what I am talking about.

            Prove me wrong. Show me, from your own doctrine, or the Bible, where I have not quoted Mormon principles correctly, or show me where, in the Bible, your principles are supported. Otherwise, you are wrong. This is the essence of debate. Show me wrong, prove me wrong, or you are yourself wrong, and your position is untenable.

            I have listed 5 points/issues. I contend that Mormonism fails the test of the Bible, and is the work of Satan. I contend that Mormonism is in direct opposition to the Bible.

            Prove me wrong.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, you said, "Prove me wrong". Okay, I'll prove you wrong. Read the Book of Mormon.

          • petroskhan

            Galatians 1
            6 I am surprised at how soon you have turned to another good news, away from Messiah who has called you to grace.
            7 A good news which does not even exist; howbeit, there are men who have stirred you up and want to pervert the good news of Messiah.
            8 But even if we, or an cherub out of Heaven, should preach a good news to you beside the good news we preached to you, let him be accursed.
            9 As we have said before, and now I say again: If anyone preaches a good news beside what you received, let him be accursed.

            2 Corinthians 11
            3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the purity which is in Messiah.
            4 For if, indeed one comes to you proclaiming another Yahshua, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit which you have not received, or another good news which you never accepted, you might have listened to him.

            Now, what was that you said? I've read a great deal of the Book of Mormon. Not all of it, to be honest (around 1/2 to 3/4, I'd say), but enough to know that what I'm talking about. Enough to know the truth of what I've cited thus far. My statements still stand, un-refuted and unanswered. I can, in addition to the five or six points I gave you earlier, give several more if you'd like, that clearly show that the Book of Mormon is wrong.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, read the WHOLE Book of Mormon, then follow Moroni 10:4. Then, if you are honest, you will find the proof you say you seek.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, if someone were making statements about Christianity that you knew to be false and/or unfavorable towards it, like it was a cult and it's leader and His followers broke laws and the leader was even executed for blasphemy and many other such attacks he had read on the internet, how would you handle that?
            '
            Would you try and answer an endless number of accusations he would present or would you try and get him to read the Bible and follow James 1:5, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men
            liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."?
            '
            I do not expect you to respond to this, but I hope you will not procrastinate until it is too late and your mortal probation is over before you read the Book of Mormon and put it to the test of Moroni 10:4, " And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

            Denial is not a river in Egypt.

          • Mary Wood

            Vlad, Petros is a student of men's philosophies. He has a hard heart. It is impossible in that state to get anything out of the Book of Mormon, other than more confusion.

          • Mary Wood

            There is only one way to find truth in the Book of Mormon. Read James1:5. Then use with due diligence the instruction Moroni 10:4… the only way… even though Mormons will always try to do it the way people who ask them about it, b/c they want people to be pleased, but that is Satan's way which may be, by the way, the way Petros likes it, unless he is really desirous of finding out the truth of what's in there. Ask Vladimir, I think he is a priesthood holder, I have no doubt.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

            Truths my foot.

          • Mary Wood

            Vlad, there is no way they can know the truth of the book of Mormon with reading and abiding in Moroni 10:4… how about starting with James 1:5

          • Mary Wood

            You said it exactly, this time Petroskhan. YOU are confused. Completely, I would add.

          • Mary Wood

            Joseph Smith was schooled in Presbyterianism at his mother's knee. When he read James 1:5&6 he discovered by his attention to those words and his subsequent prayers that he was to NOT JOIN ANY OF THE SECTS. He was wrenched out of the clutches of the sects, including that of the five points of Calvinism where these threats are coming at us all around now. And Joseph's command came from God, if ever a command came from God, it did then… not from the freak Calvin whose simplistic version of the Father is nefariously characterized in the Presbyterian church and now, to make it easy for the lazy ones who want the simplistic answers, in all the Christian churches, to complete their discrediting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

          • Mary Wood

            You lie Petroskhan. You are completely disingenuous.

          • petroskhan

            Apparently your memory is as flawed as your logic and manners. I thought I made it clear that until you learn the fundamentals of civil discourse, your comments would be ignored? However, for the sake of demonstration, point out where I have lied. Better yet, I will give you some simple, yes/no questions vis-a-vis Mormon doctrine, as I have outlined above. I'm sure you'd love to demonstrate where I've erred.

            1 – Do Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible?

            2 – According to Mormon doctrine, did God used to a man on another planet?

            3 – Does each Mormon have the potential of becoming a god?

            4 – Do Mormons believe that God is married?

            5 – Do Mormons believe that Jesus was the result of physical interaction between God and Mary?

            I think that should suffice. I eagerly await your reply.

          • Mary Wood

            I left instructions for you as to the only way to understand the Book of Mormon. You do need Vladimir to guide you. He is a Mormon priesthood holder, but to show friendship to you he has let you have your way with you philosophies of men discourse ad nauseum, a dead end as you can see and have seen time and time again. I have only been rude to you b/c you have been rude to me. It's in the record, you gave the first insult. Who is the child here? You are of course. You know I take pleasure in saying so. I won't do it again though, because you are nicer, but I can change my mind. Take heart, you will learn nothing unless you follow instructions. It is your choice.

          • petroskhan

            With all due respect, the only "instructions" I follow are those from God, as given in the Bible. But I do appreciate your comment. Thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts.

          • Mary Wood

            I thought you wanted to understand the Book of Mormon, to know what all the fuss is about.. It's a sacred exercise. I have found that since I learned to study the scriptures with those "instructions" which really are very simple, even my biblical studies have improved and also, my study of Beale's Rev. I couldn't study religion without those "instructions." It is a spiritual exercise, a prayer.

          • petroskhan

            Oh, I understand it. I just disagree with it, because it conflicts with the Bible in far too many ways. It's like understanding evolution, or socialism, but not agreeing with it.

          • Mary Wood

            I know when you have you tongue in you cheek Petroskhan. I guess I could defer to Jeff, who says all religions are pretty much the same, so that I don't feel so estranged again, talking to some one who has not an iota of a thought to the validity of the church to which I return happily every Sunday morning to experience a peace from the world, that a king or a pauper would welcome. Really, I am not complaining about you like I normally do, because each time I re-read your statement I feel a closer kinship to Jeff whom I love like a good brother, and I have three of those. It's really okay not to agree with those things, the Book of Mormon, evolution, socialism, even -at least- parts of the bible, as long as you do thoroughly understand them. Think about all the information you do understand and can argue then from an educated position even as the experts in those fields must surely somewhat do. Please forgive my usual incoherence. Mary Wood

          • Jeff Dixon

            But you do not understand evolution.

          • petroskhan

            LOL

            You're funny, Jeff. Thanks for chiming in.

          • Mary Wood

            Agree Petros, but don't think Jeff will be on my side in this… maybe he will see the good effects of work though.

          • Mary Wood

            I don't either Jeff but I am trying. I have not picked up Dawkins book in a while. Aren't there more interesting teachers out there? : )

          • Mary Wood

            Petros: I think that a lot of people do not want to continuously be told they are sinners and to be confronted with others who continuously confess they are sinners. It seems that the point of life on earth, if one sees themselves as a child of God, is to progress in the direction towards a similitude of, if not a great, successful life for oneself, and be with people who will encourage such a passion. I don't see that in the evangelical churches, and I do see that in the Mormon church.

          • Mary Wood

            You forget you invited me to discuss, but only, now I see, so you could renew our bitter relationship. How clever a little black widow spider you are. I will take this opportunity again to tell you you have no concept of the Book of Mormon because it is reserved for the tender-hearted of which you are not one, yet. I hope one day you will be, but I won't hold my breath.

          • petroskhan

            I think you are misconstruing my words. I don't like to have insults interjected into what should be a civil, intelligent, discourse on a rather weighty subject.

            How about this? Let's start over. I'll forget any comments I've objected to (no blame either way), and you do the same? Sound fair and do-able?

          • Mary Wood

            Just remember trust is earned.

          • petroskhan

            Sure is. I always tell people trust is like a paycheck; you gotta earn it.

          • Mary Wood

            On topic: What's your "gut" feelings, aside from whether you think the Churches may be or not be true: Why do you think Mormons are beating evangelicals in church growth?

          • petroskhan

            I think a large part of it is due to the fact that Mormons require that people get out there and put in their hours going door to door. Few other churches actually require members to perform this activity.

            Also, in far too many churches, members of the congregation are allowed, if not encouraged, to simply show up once a week, listen to someone talk about a topic that HE chose, and then go back home feeling like they've made God happy with that small donation of their time.

            For those who feel like they should do more, it's possible that the Mormon requirement to do more work is fulfilling in some way.

            Just my gut feelings.

          • Mary Wood

            I recall my older brother (Ken) telling me once that he literally went door to door (to other businesses, not homes) to drum up business when he first got started. He is Catholic, hard-working, has a two year technical degree, and is extremely successful, his favorite candidate is Mitt Romney from day one, which I used to think was odd, because he is staunch in his support of the Knights of Columbus. The things that really matter to him: family. He sounds like Ryan, really.

            I think you've got it right, Sunday morning worship hour done, for most people it's done and it takes its place as a separate activity from one's other, more real life. I think that is what you said. Yet for many, the perception of the level of involvement people have with each other is of supreme importance. I find the topics of Stephen Covey keep popping up when I think about the vast difference between Ken and Mitt and Ryan, yet they are the same in many ways. Because in the final analysis, who cares what they wear or where they serve their higher power, though yes those differences are important to the man, yet, it is how they live close to core values, involving the "things that matter," family.
            Though, this practice of door to door is not in my memory, ever been a church requirement as you said. It is more a passion, reaped from the daily grind of saving ones' money to "go on a mission" for the Lord. It is intimately involved in personal ambitions of the young not entirely separate activities: serving the Lord and doing chores for allowance. When I see Romney and Ryan I see exactly the same thing as when I see two missionaries together. I never have that perception of a president and v-p before. I hope that doesn't unnerve you. But I don't see where that is not a natural result of your response and David French's list of reasons in the article.

          • petroskhan

            The only time I would be concerned about any candidate's religious beliefs is when they run contrary to what is good for the country. For example, I see Obama acting in all ways as a muslim. He may state that he is a Christian, but his actions show that to be untrue, or at the very least suspect. If he is a muslim, then that is a strong reason to NOT have him in the White House, as the basic tenets of islam are contrary to American values and government.

            As for Romney/Ryan, I just don't care what their religions might be. I disagree most strongly, as a Christian, with both Catholicism and Mormonism, but there is nothing in either belief that would cause or require an adherent to actively seek to undermine or replace American values or government with their own belief system.

          • Mary Wood

            I agree with both your political points. I think the divergence to which you refer in the former and the coalescence in the latter is the profoundly accurate core of our system of government at work, the one set in place in 1776.

          • Mary Wood

            Petros: The same can be done to your church and you know it, but no one has the time to list all those many things nor the inclination

          • petroskhan

            Hmm…my church? What church would that be, Ms. Wood?

          • Mary Wood

            Making a list of blasphemy for whatever "perfect" church you attend. You know, so we could have some fair play, or don't you believe in fair play?

          • petroskhan

            …there is no such thing as a perfect church here on earth…not even close to it.

            I have attended a few different churches, and found each to be lacking in some respect. Therefore I, with a few like-minded people, study the Bible in my home. We go over issues which we feel are important, and study together to get to the bottom of each issue, using a rather large library of print and electronic references, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc.

          • Mary Wood

            Why so down on the Mormon church if you know all churches are imperfect? I see it as a place to gather on Sunday with people I like. Please don't list your points against it.

          • petroskhan

            If you're using it as a social venue, fine. As a religious gathering, for the reasons I have given, and MANY, MANY more, the Mormon religion is not simply "imperfect", it is deeply flawed, and contrary to the Bible. It's not simply a matter of being slightly off base, or incorrect in some small way that I would find irksome, but of being directly counter to the inspired word of God, as given in His message to us, the Bible.

          • Mary Wood

            I love the simple ceremony that is a reminder of the atonement. Have you attended a sacrament meeting? I grew up going catechism everyday at school, confessions every Saturday and communions and mass every Sunday for 25 years from birth. I have very deep issues as you know with Catholicism. I really appreciate the simplicity of the Mormon service.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, the challenge still stands, "read the WHOLE Book of Mormon, then follow Moroni 10:4.
            Then, if you are honest, you will find the proof you say you seek."

          • petroskhan

            Well, Vlad, not to be argumentative, but my original question do remain unanswered, and/or uncontested. In the ways I've listed, and in many, many others, the Book of Mormon clearly contradicts the Bible. The Bible is very clear on this subject. If someone comes along later, and makes statements that do not agree with Scripture, then that person does not speak for God.

            If Joseph Smith truly spoke for God, then everything he said would be in accordance with the Scriptures. Attempting to argue that the Scriptures are unreliable is an untenable position, as it would then fall to you to prove that; there is considerable which points to the opposite, however.

            God has been quite thorough. He gave us not only instructions, but tests to demonstrate who speaks for Him, and who does not. In many, many ways, the Book of Mormon simply fails the tests of the Bible. If you'd like, I could list a dozen or so points of contention to demonstrate this, some minor, some major. I'm sure you are well aware of several. But even the most minor difference represents, according to the Bible, a failure of the test given to us by God.

          • Vladimir

            Well, petroskhan, not to point out what you are doing, but I will anyway. You have chosen to believe what you want and disregard everything else. I hope you aren't planning to waive the Bible in the face of God on judgement day. Because you truly worship the Bible over the God who inspired prophets to write it. To state that more succinctly, you worship the private interpretations of the Bible that are the modern conventional wisdom of men and not the God who has promised to speak to you directly if you lack wisdom. And why? Because you believe that you do not lack wisdom.
            '
            You are so confident in your positions that you will not go to God actually expecting an answer from Him. After all, you got your information off the internet. You would rather bait me to answer your attacks, penned by others, so you can sit in judgment and dismiss them as you pretend to be the grand arbiter of what is true. You think you are playing a game with me, but you are disrespecting God. HE has said He will give you wisdom, you say, "I will not ask."
            '
            In the Bible we discover that one has to be like a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not a know-it-all that can't be taught truth and refuses to seek it from God. So cling to your positions, continue to believe what is familiar to you, attack what you don't understand, continue to believe that you have enough wisdom and above all, don't ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. (And by the way, read it before you ask, just as a courtesy to Him.)

          • petroskhan

            "You have chosen to believe what you want and disregard everything else."
            I have chosen to believe what the Bible tells me. I have chosen to believe in the inerrant and inspired word of God. You, on the other hand, have chosen to believe in a book that is contrary to the Bible, clearly contradicts in many places, and is therefore of dubious veracity.

            "I hope you aren't planning to waive the Bible in the face of God on judgement day."
            Not at all. I will humbly await His decision as to whether or not I have lived my life according to His wishes. I am, however, using the Book He gave us as a guide to just how I should be living my life. Should He find me lacking in some way, I will accept His decision, however.

            "Because you truly worship the Bible over the God who inspired prophets to write it."
            A baseless and unfounded statement; no reply needed.

            "To state that more succinctly, you worship the private interpretations of the Bible that are the modern conventional wisdom of men and not the God who has promised to speak to you directly if you lack wisdom. And why? Because you believe that you do not lack wisdom."
            Wrong on all counts, Vladimir. I do not trust my own wisdom at all; I know for a fact that all men make mistakes, and in order to avoid making as many as possible, I rely upon the wisdom of God to guide me. As we are told in Proverbs 3
            "5 Trust in YAHWEH with all your heart,
            and lean not to your own understanding.
            6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, and
            He shall direct your paths."
            If you will pardon my stating this, it is YOU, Vladimir, who is showing a lack of trust and faith in God. It is YOU who are showing that your perception of your own wisdom is above God's. How so, you will ask. By disregarding the clear wording of His Scriptures, His message to us, and holding fast to the clearly contradictory doctrine espoused in the Book of Mormon. It is very clear, from numerous passage I've presented (and a plethora more), that it is inaccurate and unreliable. Yet you hold it in higher esteem that the proven Word of God, His message to us. This is the epitome of self-indulgent pride. You believe that you know better than the Scriptures, and are a better judge of what is right and wrong. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that I know nothing, but must, time after time, refer to the Bible as my guide.

            "You are so confident in your positions that you will not go to God actually expecting an answer from Him."
            You are making assumptions again, Vladimir. While I may be confident of my position, it is a confidence borne of knowing that I have followed the will of my Creator, as expressed in the Bible. I pray every day for His guidance, for Him to help me to understand the things I need to know. And what is wrong with being confident? I have God on my side, and know that He is with me, and will protect me. How can I NOT be confident?

            "After all, you got your information off the internet."
            Incorrect, brother. I got my information from the Bible. I pray every day for His guidance, and will always do so. It is this prayerful attitude that tells me to trust in God, and in His wisdom. His message is clear, if one will only open his eyes and his heart. The Bible is there for all of us to read, and its message is equally clear on this subject.

            "You would rather bait me to answer your attacks, penned by others, so you can sit in judgment and dismiss them as you pretend to be the grand arbiter of what is true."
            I am truly sorry if you feel that you are being "baited." That is sincerely NOT my intention. I was under the impression that we were engaging in a discussion of religious matters, something of import to each of us. If you do believe that I am simply trying to attack you personally, just say so, and I will cease this conversation immediately, so as not to offend you further.

            "You think you are playing a game with me, but you are disrespecting God."
            Would you care to point out a couple of things? One, how are those two concepts related? Two, how have I disrespected God?

            "HE has said He will give you wisdom, you say, "I will not ask.""
            Nonsense. I rely on the wisdom He has given us. The greatest source of that wisdom is His inspired Word, the Holy Bible. I trust it completely, and use it as a guideline and measuring stick, to determine truth, ascertain what is right and wrong, etc.

            "In the Bible we discover that one has to be like a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not a know-it-all that can't be taught truth and refuses to seek it from God."
            But again, you are making some rather rash assumptions. A little child trusts his father, doesn't he? A child knows that all good things come from Him, and will trust no one else, for he knows that his Father alone is source of truth and all the things his Father tells him, he will obey. Only the "know-it-all" will say to himself, "Yes, His words were a good start, but I think maybe there is more that I can find on my own." Do you truly believe that one should seek truth from God? Then read the Bible. Carefully, methodically, and with complete trust in its words, and value it above all others, use it to test whether anything else (ANYTHING) is from God. That is the mark of a child who trusts his Father.

            "So cling to your positions, continue to believe what is familiar to you"
            Well, since that "position" is that the Bible is the Word of God, and should be used to judge any other message from any source, I will. I only wish that you would as well, brother.

            "…attack what you don't understand…"
            Have I attacked you? If you have that impression, I am sorry. This is a subject about which I am quite passionate, and perhaps from time to time my zeal can come across as an "attack". If such has been the case, accept my apology. And also, understanding something and agreeing with it don't go hand in hand. I can understand something and still disagree.

            "…continue to believe that you have enough wisdom…"
            As I stated, I don't trust MY wisdom at all. I trust in the word of God. His wisdom is my guide.

            "…and above all, don't ask God if the Book of Mormon is true…"
            He has given us the answer to that already, Vlad. He gave us HIS words, and told us to use them to compare any other information to His inspired texts. Have YOU made that comparison? Have you checked to see that the Book of Mormon is 100% in line with what the Bible teaches? And if so, can you HONESTLY state that it agrees with the Bible in every way? If not, then you need to make a choice, brother. Are you following God, or Joseph Smith?

            "(And by the way, read it before you ask, just as a courtesy to Him.)"
            You ever start to watch a movie, and it's so…off…that you stop watching half way through? You just know that in no way is that movie going to get good enough to save itself, to make up for what you've already been through? Or maybe you've dealt with someone who has offended you in some way, and someone else tells you that he's okay, once you get to know him? Point is, Vlad, that I've read over half of the Book of Mormon. I don't need to read the rest of it to know that it is NOT from God. I have read enough (over half, as I said) that I did some research on the rest of the Book, and found that in the parts I read, and the rest of it, it has many, many discrepancies and contradictions with the Bible, which I trust completely. Knowing that it is not of God, I have no need to read the rest of it, for we are specifically commanded NOT to do such a thing. In Jeremiah, Deuteronomy, and other places, we are told not to inquire about other beliefs, or other gods. The god of the Book of Mormon is not the God of the Bible, Vlad.

            With only the few points I've raised with you being ignored and/or unanswered, and there being so many more, there is quite simply no reason to read the rest of the Book of Mormon. If those simple points cannot be countered or overcome, what benefit would there be to my reading and discovering even more flaws? (That is a sincere question, by the way.)

            Once again, I am not trying to personally attack you, I am just telling where I stand in relation to a certain topic. If you will go over my points, and review carefully what I've written in this post and the others, you will see that I have made several valid points, which remain unanswered. I am not trying to bully, attack or harass. I am simply discussing a topic with you, and I hope that I have maintained a civil and polite tone. If not, let me know.

            God Bless.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, I am glad that you “believe in the inerrant
            and inspired word of God”,[the Bible]. However,
            I am sorry you don’t follow the Bible’s admonition to ask God for wisdom in this
            particular instance.

            I am glad that you do not plan to waive the Bible in the
            face of God on judgment day. However, I
            am sorry that you are currently doing that by using the Bible as your justification
            for refusing to ask Him for wisdom in this instance.

            I am glad that you “do not trust your own wisdom but rely
            upon the wisdom of God”. However, I am
            sorry to see that you do not have enough wisdom to ask God for wisdom in this
            instance.

            Unlike you, petroskhan, I have gone to God in prayer, knowing
            full well that I could not know of myself or from the Bible that the Book of
            Mormon was true. I am sorry that you
            believe that you have wisdom enough to discern that the Book of Mormon is not
            true without going to God for His input.

            I admit that I cannot understand how anyone who can expound
            so accurately and with such succinct eloquence on the subject of conservatism,
            be so unable to realize that receiving an answer directly from God trumps relying
            on human wisdom trying to discern the answer from the Bible. And discern it, you must. The Bible doesn’t say the Book of Mormon is
            false, it doesn’t even say that everything written outside of the Bible is
            false. But it DOES SAY, “if any of you
            lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally, and upbraides
            not; and it shall be given him.” How can
            you cling to your stubborn refusal to go to God about this?

            The Bible doesn’t say if you lack wisdom, read me. It says ASK OF GOD! Reread Proverbs 3:5-6. It doesn’t say “Trust in the Bible”. It says trust in YAHWEH. This is the scripture you are quoting to me!

            I have to admire your many attempts to justify your lack
            of action. However, every one of your justifications
            for not going to God about the Book of Mormon involved using your wisdom. Isn’t this the same wisdom that you do not
            trust?

            Isn’t it the same wisdom that you used to conclude that the
            Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible?
            '

            Now, petroskhan, you wanted to know how you are
            disrespecting God. So I will tell
            you. When you set yourself up as
            spokesman for God, declaring what is true and what is not true, and ignore God
            who is in the same room and Who actually knows what is true, you are showing
            great disrespect for Him. Someone who
            shows respect for God would have the courtesy to ask Him rather than relying on
            their own wisdom to discern His truth from His Bible.

            There are a lot of people, besides me, who have gone to
            Him in prayer and received the answer that the Book of Mormon was indeed
            written by His prophets under His direction.
            Why do you think that your wisdom is much better when you haven’t even
            inquired of the Lord whether or not the Book of Mormon is true?

            I must finally conclude that your stubborn refusal to go to
            God is fear. Fear that the answer will
            be that the Book of Mormon is true. And
            then because you are one who truly wants to do the will of the Lord, you will
            be placed in a truly awkward position. What do I do now? What will my family think? What will my friends think? But the truths you hold dear now will only be
            affirmed and you will be added upon in the short run and then forever without
            end. However, it won’t be easy.

            If you conclude that it is better not to ask, I will
            understand. But excuse me if I won’t
            agree with you, but instead rely on God’s answer to me that the Book of Mormon is
            a second testament of Jesus Christ written by His prophets under His direction.

          • petroskhan

            Vlad, thank you for that reply. I appreciate the time it took for you to write it.

            Now, then.

            You continually in your replies and statements state that I haven't asked God for His wisdom on this matter. You state that I am relying on my own wisdom, or am failing to follow the Bible and seek guidance.

            I am wondering, how do you "know" this? Where is the hidden camera that is showing you my living room, where you can see what I do day to day? Or do you have the ability to read minds, and know what I think? :D

            You keep stating that I haven't "gone to God" to get an answer to this issue. Again, whence comes this conviction? Did God tell you that I haven't asked Him anything? Or are you just assuming that since I disagree with you, I must, therefore, be disagreeing with God? Rather presumptuous, if you ask me.

            I could go on and on in regards to your reply, and go out of my way to refute each and every point. That would make this a rather wordy reply, and I don't think either of us would benefit from such a lengthy dissertation. Instead I will make this much more simple, so that we can both benefit from the exchange.

            I listed previously 5 or 6 issues that I felt were of some import, showcasing how the Book of Mormon makes statements which are contrary to the Bible. I will, for the sake of easing this discussion, list a few things which I think are germane, and you can, if you choose, give me your answers to them. I must state, beforehand, that I am NOT attempting any bashing, offending, flaming, etc. I am simply interested in a reply to these issues, as they are very important to any discussion of this nature.

            In Genesis 11, it states:
            "9 On account of this its name is called Babel, because YAHWEH mixed
            up the speech of all the earth there. And YAHWEH scattered them abroad
            from there on the face of all the earth."

            Now, contrary to this we have Ether 1, in which we find:
            "33 Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.

            34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.

            35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.

            36 Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our friends, that he confound not their language.

            37 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded."

            Now, there are two things here which are important to note.

            Firstly, this does, as I stated before, contradict the story of the Bible, where it is quite clear, requires no "interpretation" or special wisdom. It says "the speech of all the earth"; that means everybody. In Ether, we have some people getting special treatment all of a sudden. Which story should we believe?

            The second thing, and more glaring, if you ask me, is this: Nowhere did God inform anyone of His plan to confound the languages. He simply did it. So my question is fairly simple. How did Jared's brother ask him to "Cry unto the Lord" if the languages had been confounded? And if the languages hadn't been confounded, then why was his brother worried about anything, since it hadn't happened yet? Verse 33 makes it pretty clear it had already happened, so how were they communicating?

            Point 2:
            In Micah 2:1, the birth of the Messiah is foretold, and the place of his birth given as Bethlehem; this was fulfilled, as told in Matt 2:1. Alma 7:10, however, states that he would be born in Jerusalem. Which one do we believe?

            Point 3:
            In the Bible, as told in Matt 27:45, Mark 15:33, and Luke 23:44, at the time the Messiah died, the earth was covered in darkness for 3 hours. Contrarily, the Book of Mormon, in 3 Nephi 8:3, states:
            "And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land."
            The global nature of this darkness is repeated and reinforced by Helaman 14:20 & 27:
            " 20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead."
            "27 And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days."

            Note that verse 27 is quite clear here…"the whole earth…" The Bible says three hours, the Book of Mormon says three days. Big difference there. Which one do we believe?

            Point 4:
            Alma 16
            "13 And Alma and Amulek went forth preaching repentance to the people in their temples, and in their sanctuaries, and also in their synagogues, which were built after the manner of the Jews."
            Alma 23
            "2 Yea, he sent a decree among them, that they should not lay their hands on them to bind them, or to cast them into prison; neither should they spit upon them, nor smite them, nor cast them out of their synagogues, nor scourge them; neither should they cast stones at them, but that they should have free access to their houses, and also their temples, and their sanctuaries."
            Alma 26
            29 And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again."

            Note in those verses above that the plural "temples" is used each time. Apparently this alleged people built many of them. However, according to the Bible, we have this:
            Deuteronomy 12:
            "5 But you shall seek to the place which YAHWEH your Elohim shall
            choose out of all your tribes (Jerusalem); for you shall seek His
            dwelling, to put His name there. And you shall go there."
            "13 Take heed to yourself that you not offer your burnt offerings in every
            place that you see;
            14 but in the place which YAHWEH shall choose in one of your tribes
            (Jerusalem), there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command."

            Note the singular? There is only ONE place, ONE temple where God gives His blessings and where sacrifices are to be performed. Yet, the Book of Mormon indicates that this people, allegedly following the "Laws of Moses", had a plethora of temples. Which one do we believe?

            Point 5:
            Alma 10
            "3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren."
            Mosiah 2
            "3 And they also took of the firstlings of their flocks, that they might offer sacrifice and burnt offerings according to the law of Moses;"

            In the Bible, in the book of Exodus, from chapters 28 through 31, it is very clear that only a descendant of Levi can offer sacrifices. That is the "Law of Moses"; ergo, the Nephites were, in point of fact, BREAKING the Law of Moses by having a descendant of the wrong tribe offering sacrifices. Which one do we believe?

            As I keep asking you, Vlad, can you explain ANY of these contradictions I've given you? Either the first ones, or those in this post? God has given us His guidebook, His "instruction manual", and it's very clear. Prayers for wisdom, requests for guidance, etc., are all a good thing. I do it daily, and with great sincerity. The answer I get, from both prayer, and my own study of the Scripture, is that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. I can, if you desire, list many occasions where his prophecies proved to be false, and very much off the mark.

            I would refer you to Acts, chapter 17:
            "10 But the brothers at once sent both Paul and Silas to Berea during the
            night; who having arrived went into the synagogue of the Jews.
            11 And these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they
            received the Word with all readiness, daily examining the Scriptures if these
            things are so."

            Note here, what the Bereans did. They "received the Word with all readiness", but in order to make sure that it was in accordance with the Word of God, with all that had come before, they examined the Scriptures daily, to see "if these things are so." I am doing the exact same thing with the Book of Mormon, comparing it to the Bible. Sadly, it is lacking in veracity, and fails the Biblical test of authenticity.

            You can accuse me of whatever you like. I don't know you, and you don't know me. You can't offend me, or anger me, and I have no wish to do that to you. However, before you go claiming that I am not asking God for His answer, or making other assumptions about which you can not possibly have any information, do one thing. Answer the discrepancies between the two Books. There are FAR more than I have listed here; you know that as well as I do. You have two sources of knowledge. You have two versions, from two sources. I ask you again…which one do we believe?

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, why the elaborate subterfuge? You spent three paragraphs insinuating that you had gone to God and asked Him if the Book of Mormon were true. But you couldn't bring yourself to actually say that you had.

            Then you move immediately to what is apparently a more comfortable line of argument for you, e.g. listing what the wisdom of man has devised as attacks on the Book of Mormon. But we have established that the wisdom of man is imperfect and that God's wisdom, which He will freely give us, is perfect.

            I just want you to stop kicking against the pricks. Prepare yourself to receive revelation from Him by studying the problem as much as is reasonable given the time and talents He has given you. Then when you are ready, go to Him in prayer, with a sincere heart, with real intent to act on what He will tell you and with faith in Jesus Christ.

            I promise you, based on the love I have for my Savior and all I have experienced at His hand, if you will do that, He will reveal the truth unto you. When God speaks, argument ceases. The wisdom of men melts away, contention ceases and the sweet spirit of God fills your heart and soul. It is wonderful beyond words.

          • petroskhan

            I am going to assume from your reply that you are not going to answer those points I raised, then?

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, I could spend a lifetime rebutting attacks against the Lord's church and you could spend a lifetime raising them. Look at the atheists, that's all they do to all of Christianity. Every attack you make is on the internet and every rebuttal is also on the internet. You can attack and rebut with yourself for as long as you like without involving me.

            However, it is up to God to bring wisdom to you. I am not up to that task. Just remember, God will not force you to accept His truth and it is therefore possible that you will not know in this lifetime that the Book of Mormon is His truth, too. It is you who must knock. I am not the one behind the door, God is.

          • petroskhan

            Vlad…

            Once again you are using the word "attack", and a tone which indicates (or from which I infer) that you feel a bit angry, or "put out." Such was never my intention, and if that is currently your attitude, then please understand that I am only attempting to engage in a discussion, NOT an attack on your faith, or you personally.

            I don't agree with several of the tenets and beliefs of the Mormon faith. That should be obvious. :D However, you are free to believe as you wish, and I wish you the best with that, just as I am sure you wish me the best in my pursuit of God's will.

            I was, however, interested in discussing some of the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. I am interested in how some of these discrepancies might be explained. You might feel that there are no discrepancies; an explanation would be interesting to me. I greatly enjoy a spirited debate, as long as it's social, civil, and not filled with personal attacks.

            I pray for guidance every day, asking God to show me the truth, to lead me to a better understanding of His will. I believe that I am being guided, and a result of that guidance is these questions I have.

            You seem to be disinclined to further pursue this subject further, and discuss the questions I've raised. That's fine. I never intended this to turn into some sort of argument or heated discussion between enemies.

            In the interest of keeping this civil, I will consider the matter closed, and the conversation ended. I regret that you do not wish to continue, and go over certain points/questions I have, but I do not wish to cause you to feel "attacked." That is more important to me than any answer to my questions.

            Have a wonderful day. God Bless.

          • Vladimir

            Petroskhan, some day you will reflect on this discussion and perhaps by then the Lord will have prepared you to investigate His church. Please remember that conversion comes only through the Holy Ghost and not by the arguments or persuasion of men. It is between you and God who loves you unconditionally. May He bless you with knowledge, understanding and, of course, wisdom.

          • Mary Wood

            It is a revealed religion. If you find it flawed, this is true of your own religion as well.

          • Mary Wood

            Clever of you not to give the name of your church Petros.

          • petroskhan

            The reason is…

          • Mary Wood

            Do you mean… for trust? I don't get what you mean. Oh we have a different subject… you mean the reason for the name of your church?

          • Mary Wood

            I know exactly what you mean Vladimir. 'Glad to see you standing for the right.

    • http://twitter.com/carverel Elmer L. Carver

      The Bible warns of this day in which people would reject sound teachings and flock to doctrines of devils. The prodigal son left the pig pen and returned to his father's house, sadly it's getting much harder tell prodigals from pigs.

      • petroskhan

        Precisely. Thank you.

        • Mary Wood

          Mr. Petroskhan: This is precisely the kind of "ideology" that proves the evangelicals follow a satanic being, and not a gracious, good Father "who art in heaven." When are you going to buckle down and get a real grip on why evangelicals are leaving in droves for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? James 1:5, Moroni 10:4.

          • petroskhan

            Mary, I have nothing against anyone seeking the truth in whatever way one wishes. Nor do I have anything against you personally, or anyone who chooses to believe in what the Book of Mormon teaches.

            But seriously, it contradicts the Bible in too many ways for me to accept it. The Bible is the foundation of Christian faith. It is the origin of it. It gives us guidelines for determining who speaks for God, and who doesn't. One of those is quite simple. If anyone speaks words (or writes them) that go against His teachings, then that person does NOT speak for God.

            I have shown a few clear ways the Book of Mormon fails this test. There are, as I am sure you are aware, many more, which I would be willing to list. Each one, on its own, is a valid reason to disregard the teachings of that book, since the Bible demands that anyone speaking for God be correct 100% of the time. When taken all together, they form a compelling argument against the veracity and Divine origin claimed by its writer.

            As I said, nothing personal is intended against any adherent; I am just going by what the Bible tells us all we should do. Compare any new teachings to God's Word.

          • Mary Wood

            The point is Petroskhan, you cannot know the Book of Mormon, so you cannot make the judgement you make, coming from an already slanted point of view. That may be a harsh way to put it. I just don't know how to say it with finesse. I came to study the BofM when my faith dropped to zero in my other faith. I am just one of those people who still believes in the ten commandments. They are not diminished by the LDS but are in fact amplified and actually practiced there, but not in the site of others.

    • Mary Wood

      Your argument is completely superfluous. You are the perfect example of The Gas Law of Learning.

    • seektruth

      While I agree with some of what you say, this is NOT the spirit of Christ that calls His church to "love as he has loved". We are TO CARE. and care as Christ does, even to the point of death, if necessary.
      Yes, they are doomed to hell and people are CASCADING into it (picture the Niagra Falls). If you have the LOVE of Christ then you should care and care very deeply. Yes, He calls whom He calls and uses US as His instruments in the calling. Are you willing to be used?

      • petroskhan

        I do care to a certain extent, and in a certain way. But when people deliberately blind themselves to the truth, and hold fast to what is an obvious lie, they are doing the greatest harm imaginable to themselves, with the full knowledge of the wrong they do. For this type of person, I have no sympathy.

        • seektruth

          Gotch ya!

          Peace in Christ.

    • Mary Wood

      I hope you take your lessons to seriously understand, though not necessarily agree with, the Book of Mormon.

    • Mary Wood

      Mr. Petroskhan: From the perspective you have shown on this forum, I see you have learned nothings of LDS teachings. Allow me to suggest you read some scholarly presentations found at FARMS, foundation of ancient research and Mormon studies:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Ancient_Research_and_Mormon_Studies

  • barney

    Following is a quote from A.W. Tozer that explains the condition of the evangelical church today.
    "The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of llife have all been "Christianized"
    (not by the liberal, mind you, but by the evangelicals) and are now being offered along with Christ to everyone who will "believe" …the very values Christ scorned are now being used to attract people to the gospel"

    • http://twitter.com/BradNova Brad Nova

      I think more people are realizing that church is not necessary for a close relationship with Jesus.

      • Evermyrtle

        Brad, Do you have a relationship with JESUS? Nothing you have ever posted leads to one thinking that you have a relationship with HIM.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Crowder/100003089905700 John Crowder

        So when you read in the New Testament that Jesus purchased the church with His own blood, you must think that he shed His blood unnecessarily?

      • http://twitter.com/carverel Elmer L. Carver

        You go ahead and play that I don't need fellowship game and you'll find yourself in the world in short order.

      • Wesley

        the church is the hands and feet of Christ. trying saying you want a close relationship with your spouse while refusing to live with her and live thousand miles away and only talk on the phone. your relationship will fall apart and you would end up having affairs and divorcing each other. that is what it looks like without the church. “One cannot call God his Father without calling the church his Mother.” i just can not remember the early church father that quote is attributed to.

      • Mary Wood

        Even John MacArthur is non-denominational. This makes him free to recruit across borders, Slaves for Christ.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Crowder/100003089905700 John Crowder

      You could add to that the "lust of the ear" when you consider how the driving,pounding animalistic beat of rock music has been melded with religious lyrics to produce "contemporary Christian music" that is anything but Christian.

      • barney

        I was quoting Tozer, but you are absolutely right.  Our pastor won't allow anything like that in our church thankfully.

    • Mary Wood

      For a reasonable perspective on teaching these values of family to the young, look up the Strength of Youth or ask a missionary. You will be surprised at the simplicity of the very effective approach to teaching family values. Case in point: Mitt and Ann Romney and family!

  • aceituna

    We are not sharing our faith as we should. One reason is that we fear how our friends and acquaintances will respond if we witness so we keep out mouth shut and say that our religion is a personal thing between me and God. Are you willing to face ridicule or do you keep your mouth shut and let your friends and acquaintances go to hell? Everything Wesley says points to our excuses for not sharing our faith.

    • Mary Wood

      It will take more than sharing what you only superficially believe. When you begin to deeply understand then and only then will you understand why the more mentally alert young are leaving the evangelical churches and joining the intellectual activity of faith available through the Mormon church, which you currently misunderstand.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TFABB6NXHV2A3FIL6LGV36GQTY Vince

        Misunderstand how? There is an absolute lack of intellectual capacity when one reads the ravings of church founders and so-called prophets like Joe Smith and Brigham Young. It doesn't square with the gospel, and there has to be an abject intellectual disconnect to gloss over those inconvenient truths about Mormonism.

        • Mary Wood

          I stand by my comment. I am not a missionary teacher so you will have to find one with that calling to explain the details. The LDS church history is rich and bears some further investigation by me. I have heard the mormon.org is a good source of information for newcomers.

  • EstebanCafe

    An interesting discussion about this last Sunday. One of the congregation concerning this very topic:
    "Yes, all signs of the church of the devil. Their's is a religion based on works, in which they say 'By their fruits ye shall know them.' Mormons see works as evidence of their faith; that is, they would not "do" if they did not "believe." Theirs is a "You're saved, after all you can do" religion" Imagine: God expecting us to actually do anything after we've confessed His Son crucified? We must be dependent upon His Holy Grace and exercise Faith in Christ alone, not anything we can do, lest we actually think we're earning our way into heaven. So, we do nothing that might smack of works, lest we approach the throne as do the mormons."
    We, on the other hand, used to see faith and grace as a one time commitment. Recall ~40 years ago the "If Hitler confessed Christ then he'd go to heaven regardless of all he had done or might do?" type Sunday School questions? (the answer was always, "Yes"). My, how far we've come since then!

  • Mary Wood

    Utah has the lowest incidence of sequential polygamy in the nation.

  • Bill

    A division will take place before the return of Messiah.
    Between the true church & the false church.
    Between the bride of Christ & the bride of satan.
    The true church will not be determined by it's popularity or number of members.
    In fact, quite the opposite will be true.
    Hold fast to the perserved word of God & not to denominational tradition or doctrine unless it can be proven by the Bible.

  • Vladimir

    I agree, Bighoss.

  • Mary Wood

    Coupled with remarriage rates? The stats are:
    Please tell us little pony.

    • Bighoss

      I do not believe that there are any statistics maintained on "remarriage" rates. See the U.S. Census link below, which shows that in 2009, in Utah, the Mormon-ist state had divorce rates for both males and females that were at about the national average. Statistics for 1990 and 2000 were comparable. If family values are so high among Mormons, one would think that the records for the Mormon-ist state (70 percent Mormon) would show something better than this middling performance. Fanily home Mondays don't seem to be applying any glue to those divorcing Utah Mormons.

      http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0133.pdf

      • Mary Wood

        The teacher who quoted these stats to us more then a couple of years ago has moved to Oak Ridge… I will have to contact him… he is a CPA, so I hope to find in him, an honest man. 'will let you know, little pony.

      • Mary Wood

        I LOVE THE MORMONS

  • Mary Wood

    Just received from a good Mormon friend on FB; I thought the just might want to see this:
    "Many of you know that I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We are often nicknamed "Mormons". Tonight at 9 CSTon NBC's Rock Central there will be an entire hour focusing on Mormonism in America. This is being spurred on by Mitt Romney being a Presidential nominee. I don't know if they will be 100% accurate or if they will introduce any bias, however I encourage you to watch this and feel free to ask me or any other Mormon anything about our church. In the past people not of our faith have felt like we are hiding what we believe. I feel this has been misunderstood. We feel deeply about our beliefs and they are very important and sacred to us. They are not secret. Whether you join our faith or not we hope everyone is familiar with our beliefs, just as we want to be familiar with the beliefs of others. We have nothing to hide. Jesus Christ is the center of our faith."~ Kelly, LDS

  • Mary Wood

    I LOVE THE MORMONS!

  • Mary Wood

    Little Pony: I love the Mormons.

  • petroskhan

    Agreed, sir.

  • Byron

    To even look like those guys pictured obove those funny looking Mormon chaps wearing that dress-code from their church, white shirt & tie with a stupid name tag. They look like NERDS / GEEKS wanting to push their religion onto others. They have beliefs that are not Biblical, and they call themselfs christian. You couldnt pay me enough to look like that, an going door to door. NO THANKS !!!!!!

  • Byron

    I dont care if that ' religion ' is growing, I can care less.