How the Lord's Prayer saved a 9/11 survivor

For John Mahony, a retired U.S. Army colonel who was managing projects for Blue Cross/Blue Shield, instinct came before analysis as he fought to stay on his feet the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.

“The building jerked hard, throwing everyone off balance,” remembers Mahony in the account he has written of surviving the 9/11 attacks.

Mahony was working on the 19th floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center that morning.

Mahony directed his co-workers to a stairway, checked the area for anyone else, and headed down through what was quickly a haze of smoke and dust.

This was when his daily habit of saying the Lord’s Prayer bobbed to the surface of his mind, providing a grillwork of stability in the midst of the writhing building.

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Evermyrtle

In all actuality,GOD saved him through his prayer., Because he prayed The LORD"S Prayer, through GOD'S grace, HE protected him and took him out of the tower, safely.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  So, your god allowed 3,000 other people to violently die on that day and was only concerned about someone muttering a prayer? He allowed children to die who were in the planes that crashed?
  - markj
    
    is it not strange that there was dust and smoke 70 floors below the impact zone hm? the smoke and dust he was refering to was fromm the bombs going off in the lobby and the basement, check out firefighters for 911 truth and see what fire fighters say about the explosives that were going off before the planes hit the towers do it for the people who died that day, open you eyes and mind and god bless the victims of that terrible day in our nations history.
    - R Sava
      
      Just stop it.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      My heart does go out to the victims. Which is why it is so pathetic that Myrtle claims that the biblical god saved someone for muttering a prayer.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Muttering a prayer will not save you, you must talk to HIM, but you can use the pattern prayer that HE gave us, if you mean the words, if you speak them from your heart.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Talking to mythological deities will not accomplish anything
      - PaulN
        
        OK, your statement is correct. Mythical deities cannot help you. Sadly, you assume all diety are mythical. If there was a God (and I say there IS), have you tried talking to Him? I do it daily and I see His responses frequently. Of course, you would just say they are coincidental. I say they are more than coincidence. I can't prove I am right and you can't prove I am wrong. Therefore, I find comfort and solace in the belief that there is a loving, caring, omipotent God who will reward me for my faith and diligence. What do you get from your belief?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I get comfort from friends, family and work. I do not take comfort in deluding myself.
      - PaulN
        
        More of your hate speech.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Yeah. I know!!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Actually, you do not not.
      - Esther
        
        Muttering again Myrtle? Wht is your sect?
      - guest233
        
        Jeff..i truely beleive that those who cry out to God for help and for His mercy bends His ear and He will help ALL who call out to Him in sincerity. Also the misery and pain in our world is that satan is the god of this world..the father of lies and murder and mayhem. We have a choice…follow Gods plan or satans. There is no middle ground. One offers death and destruction.(satan) Jesus Christ offers life and peace. Those who died on 9/11 who knew the Son Of God are in a joyous place of incredible beauty and peace and will never see death again. Please consider?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Rather like the odds of probability. It happens to some but not to all. At the end of the day, what happens is merely the roll of the dice.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        And, God just may have, a strong possibility.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        i do not remember saying anything about "muttering" You must have been talking to your friend, Esther.
      - Esther
        
        Muttering again Myrtle
        
        Evermyrtle • a day ago • parentJeff Dixon: Muttering a prayer will not save you, you must talk to HIM, but you can use the pattern prayer that HE gave us, if you mean the words, if you speak them from your heart.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Thanks, I'll remember that, you need to remember it, too!!
  - seektruth
    
    "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Rom 5:8
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      No, his supposed love is nothing of the kind.
      - Esther
        
        You don't know that, Jeff. You just think so. You are avoiding the reality of knowledge gathered by the heart.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not avoiding anything. I am addressing the issue at hand
      - Esther
        
        Jeff: I see the context now. Often I respond just to the email I get from Zionica.
      - seektruth
        
        You are? you either know God personally by making such an assertion or you are creating blasphemy by claiming "there is no God" which is itself a contradiction. For in order to make such a claim, you must know all of reality, which is claiming to be god, yourself.
        At least an intellictual honest person would say, "I don't know whether God exists or not. I haven't met Him." But a claim that He doesn't exist is an absurdity.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        One does not have to know all of reality to know that something nonsensical cannot exist. The attributes of the biblical god show he cannot exist.
        The Christian god is considered to be all powerful and all knowing. That is not possible. If god is all powerful, then he can make any change that he wants. However, if he is all knowing, then he already knows how everything will turn out. If he makes a change, then something new occurred that he was not previously aware of. He, therefore, would not be all knowing. However, if he does not know everything, then he can’t be all powerful, as there is something he does not have complete control over. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. Just as a square circle cannot exist, the biblical god cannot exist either.
        
        Predestination vs Free WillIf predestination occurs, then it makes no difference what choices we decide upon. Whether I believe I am choosing A or B, I will still end up with the result that god decided (forced) upon for me. For free will to have any relevance, my fate cannot be known in advance.
        
        However, there is also the issue that the biblical god is considered all knowing. If he knows everything, he knows my fate in advance. Again, my choices are meaningless, since the choices I make are preprogrammed to end up with a single result. It makes no difference to say he knows the result, but still allows me the choices to achieve my fate. If the outcome is known in advance, then the game is rigged from the beginning.
        
        It also makes it meaningless to say god loves everyone equally. If he knows I am damned and you are saved, based on the choices we are predestined to make, then he already knows I will end up in hell and is unwilling to do anything to advert my fate, even though I also cannot do anything to change it. He is therefore, choosing favorites. Christians often say that you need to let Jesus in your life. However, they also say that only god can decide to save someone. How can you decide to let Jesus in your life if god has already decided not to allow that to occur? And if only god can decide to save someone, how does my free will choices have any bearing on this issue?
        
        Then you add the element of prayer into the equation. Prayer cannot change anything in a predestined situation as the outcome was already decided. If god decides to "answer" a prayer, then the outcome has been changed and it was never predestined. However, you can also argue that the reason the prayer was answered is BECAUSE it was predestined. Therefore, the prayer was simply part of the script and god did not change anything, he simply fulfilled his original design. Prayer is, therefore, useless.
        
        Free will and Predestination are two concepts which are in complete opposition to each other. They are mutually exclusive.
      - Esther
        
        I recommend R. C. Sproul's CHOSEN BY GOD. Get it at http://www.ligonier.org, Jeff. If you buy it on $5 Friday:
        http://www.ligonier.org/blog/5-friday-martin-luther-theology-and-charles-spurgeon/ also national conference coming up.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        In what way is my explanation wrong?
      - Esther
        
        Well let me tell you it is a long story, but a good one and worth the 5$ … he may even be able to convince you, I would not bet on it though but he is ALL reason. I have no doubt you would enjoy the process he goes through
        
        Go to the website and get the 5$ friday deal you won't regret it
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Mary if you cannot explain his point of view, why would I bother to read it?
      - Esther
        
        I am working to post the cd version of the book to either this site or your rational response website,
        http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ so the answer to your question will be self-explanatory, I assure you. It is not boring. The point is RC is a philosopher by trade and he is extremely thorough in "covering all bases," enjoys a good argument, and presents with near complete humility. Let me give you an excerpt of the kinds of complication he introduces:
        
        " If we turn our attention to Paul's letter to the Roman's we read:
        
        For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30).
        
        "This well known passage in Romans is also called the "Golden Chain of Salvation." We notice a kind of order here that begins with God's foreknowledge and is carried through to the glorification of the believer.It is crucial to the foreknowledge view [of predestination] that God's foreknowledge comes before God's predestination.
        
        "I have great appreciation for the foreknowledge view of predestination. I once held it before I surrendered to the Reformed view. But I abandoned this view for several reasons. Not least is that I have become convinced that the foreknowledge view is not so much an explanation of the biblical doctrine of predestination as it is a denial of biblical doctrine. It fails to include the whole counsel of God on the matter.
        
        "Perhaps the greatest weakness of the foreknowledge view is the text cited as its greatest strength. On closer analysis, the passage of Romans cited above becomes a serious problem for the foreknowledge view. On the one hand those who appeal to it to support the foreknowledge view find too little. That is, the passage teaches less than the advocates of the foreknowledge would like it to teach and yet teaches more than they want it to teach." END OF QUOTE
        
        RC's argument goes on for several pages where he specifies each and every avenue one might take to justify reasonable and unreasonable pathways to "the truth" which of course is based upon the accurate translation of the word of God. What does God mean by calling? By internal calling? By external calling? What is justification by faith? What is the Reformed view of predestination? How does the Reformed view of predestination contrast with the foreknowledge view? and so on. ibid. pp.103-112.
      - Esther
        
        Mr Dixon, did you find the book I recommended? R. C. Sproul is a good teacher and gives all the various perspectives on predestination which are many. Of course you and he diverge from the point of belief and non-belief in the biblical God. So of course it is no contest. It's just that he justifies his position in a very intriguing manner, using all the philosophical devices to prove his point so in that way I think you will find him most interesting. Really.
      - http://www.facebook.com/dorothy.m.wood Mary Wood
        
        Here is the comment I read, Jeff. I thought you might want to see another's perspective. Mary
      - Esther
        
        Jeff is talking about the biblical God whom he thinks doesn't exist because he sees all the contradictions in the bible, Seektruth! He is not talking about the actual God whom he has said time and time again is not the biblical God.
        
        I am currently reading D. A. Carson, an authority on the Fourth Gospel (the Gospel of John), quote: " themes become still more problematic for some readers when formally at least they contradict the treatment of similar themes in the Synoptic Gospels. Here, for instance, John the Baptist denies that he is Elijah (1:21), even though according to the Synoptists Jesus insists that he is (Mk. 9:11-13 par. [parallel(s)]). What shall we make of the bestowal of the Spirit (Jn. 20:22) and its relation to Acts 2? Above all, how do we account for the fact that in the Synoptics the disciples seem to grow from small beginnings in their understanding of who Jesus is, with various highpoints along the way, such as Caesarea Philippi (Mk. 8:27-30 par.), while in John the very first chapter finds various individuals confessing Jesus not only as Rabbi, but as Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, Lamb of God and King of Israel?" (p. 22)
        furthermore in his preface Carson admits "… I have been unable to achieve these goals…" (p. 8) of 1. make clear the flow of the text, 2. to engage a massive secondary literature on the fourth Gospel, 3. draw lines to how the Fourth Gospel contributes to the biblical and systematic theology, and 4. to offer a consistent exposition of the fourth gospel as an evangelistic gospel. and "it is clear that John's independence is one of the reasons why this Gospel has precipitated such varied treatment during the history of the church." (p. 23)
        
        If the experts can admit such contradictions exists, Seektruth, why then cannot a man whose passion is reason have the same opinion and furthermore be derided for it?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I freely admit I do not believe in any version of god. However, the biblical god is particularly absurd.
      - Esther
        
        I hope I left that very impression. You have made the distinction before.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is hardly blasphemy to claim there are no gods when there is no evidence that there actually is any gods. Show the evidence for your god and support it with evidence that he is actually offended by comments about his non-existence. Statements from people that he exists is not evidence that he actually does.
        
        For far too long people have allowed the religious to get a free pass about their beliefs. There is no reason the religious should be afforded any extra consideration for their beliefs and many reasons why they should not be given any.
        
        It does not take knowledge of everything to state there is no evidence for something. Based on your comment, we should assume that fairies, leprechauns and dragons exist. After all, we certainly have not looked everywhere in the universe for them yet.
        
        However, reasonable people do not expect that we should assume them to be real simply because we have not yet looked on Jupiter for them. They understand that if people on Earth claim they exist, then proof from Earth is what is needed to support that claim.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Jeff ,,,, When you hear people say , if Satan/Devil exists , If God exists, if,if,if,,, Know you are not talking to a true born again Christian, SORRY to say, The true issue you at hand is , you are not born again, which means you know not the truth of God's Word,
        You also said China, and the U S A was not in the Bible , I respectably disagre, there are scores of verses that says different..
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There are verses which people interpret to mean the USA. It is not in the bible.
      - Esther
        
        I hope your stomach is not giving you too much trouble today Pastor Dwayne.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        A true Christian remark????
      - Esther
        
        Ask the Pastor. Don't look at me. You have missed a few posts now haven't you Myrtle?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        It is funny , you have never asked me what page I read in the book of doom
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Only when I read the book of doom. Satans angel called Joe Smith to write…
      - Esther
        
        Jeff: You do have an issue at hand on this page.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Like I said Jeff, I can tell by your comments you are a very intelligent person, I just can't understand how you ever went so far astray about the CREATOR of this world and everything in it. I know that many scientists say the is no GOD and GOD did not create everything here BUT there are many scientist that say that it is not possible that it was not created by a SUPER SUPREME BEING.Why not check this out. Do a study on it. By the way, I apologize for all comments to you, that were not to GOD'S glory. I am still a sinner and still make a lot of mistakes but HE IS GOD AND HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IS IN EACH OF OUR HEARTS.
        
        You are so right in your belief that Christians are not what is expected of Christians. I would guess that maybe 20% who claim to be Christians are really Christians, BUT THERE ARE MANY TRUE CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD.
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle said: "I just can't understand how you ever went so far astray"
        Myrtle, if you will just read responses and use your reason to interpret, end up with complete understanding.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        There is nothing, as far as I can see that indicates what his problem is, and as far as I know he is well able to answer for himself. Do give him that right!! I think that he will appreciate it.
      - Esther
        
        What is your sect?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        My sect? The third one down the back row, on the opposite side from where you sit.
      - Esther
        
        denomination = sect
      - Esther
        
        LOL we do not attend the same denomination unless you have been holding out on me at the same time as attacking me.
      - Esther
        
        The problem with you is you think you control everyone Myrtle.
        You attacked my religion. What is you Christian sect?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Your problem is that you can't see the truth and because of the you are vindictive.
      - Esther
        
        Not at all. You have attacked my faith and I want to know yours just to have an even playing field. Don't you think that is fair?
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle said: "Do give him the right? " What the dickens are you talking about … do give him the right??? What is that?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not aware of a problem that I need to address. Well, I do have a fondness for fried foods, but I think I have that under control. Mostly. :)
      - Esther
        
        You say most Christians are wrong?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        No, I do not say most Christians are wrong! What I say is that everybody who says they are a Christian, is really a Christian. You really are an expert at twisting words.
      - Esther
        
        Au contraire,you are the twister.
        
        LOLOLOLOLOLOL
        Myrtle said: " maybe 20% who claim to be Christians are really Christians"
        
        Where do you go to church? What is your sect?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        E that 20% is prob. pretty close to accurate.
      - Esther
        
        Terrible, are those all SBC's ??? Pastor Dwayne?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        A physical denomination is not the real church,, the real church is recorded in the Lamb's book of life, you will find in that book, "SOME" Methodists, SOME Catholics, SOME Pentecostals, OF which I am, SOME Baptists, SOME, Lutherans, SOME Presbyterians . SOME Mormons. But the Mormons just like all Catholics that I have seen Truly Born Again leave the Church they are in and usually will go to Baptist, or Pentecostal Churches……
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        The above is meant for Esther
      - Esther
        
        Then what is the right question to ask if I want to know someone's faith, church, etc.. Pastor Dwayne?
      - Esther
        
        Here it is. You are Pentecostal. Well, I was born and raised Catholic and remained Catholic until about 14 years ago. I left for several main reasons:
        1. The church was NO help whatsoever with my marriage which should have never happened. Total irreconcilable problems.
        2. The church decided to canonize Pope Pius who stood with Hitler duing WWII
        3. The church was pro-abortions from way back in the 50s … I researched for a college paper I was writing on abortion and discovered to my shock that there was a Catholic hospital in NYC where one could obtain an abortion.
        I did not want to join any church that was a even any where associated or was a "spin-off" of the Catholic Church. I love the church I did join, the Mormon church, and I. like many new Mormons have never experienced any of the things that people say it is about. My family history does not go back to the tragic era of that church at all. I love the people and we have bible study just like other churches do. So many, including you, believe the Mormon church to be a cult. I don't see anything of the sort of characteristics you tell me are there, in it. It is definitely better than Catholic because we study the scriptures of the KJV as much as we study the BofM. The BofM does not have the connotation you say it does and speaks of Christ from the experience of a different culture, that is the only difference. But it is the same Christ. Really.
      - Esther
        
        Here are your own words, same as above Myrtle: "Christians are not what is expected of Christians. I would guess that maybe 20% who claim to be Christians are really Christians,"
        
        YOU SAID THIS ABOVE
      - Esther
        
        We are intelligent but stupid, Myrtle? What is your sect?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        What sect would you like it to be??? Like you said, once again I do not have to answer questions,especially, if they are stupid and none of your business. Basically I get my beliefs from the truth I find in GOD'S WORD.
      - Esther
        
        Instead of sect, I mean denomination.
      - Esther
        
        You found out mine and attacked me for being Mormon. Are you afraid I will return the favor?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Do you refuse to eat lobster or stone people who work on the Sabbath? Do you refuse to wear clothes made of blended fabrics? If not, you are not following the bible which you believe is "God's Word".
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There have been people in this world who believed it was created by some god or another for thousands of years. In the past it was Zeus or Odin or one of many thousands of different gods. Today, it is primarily God or Jesus, if one is a Christian or Allah.
        
        People think that since the major religions are now monotheistic they are a better representation of the reality of God. Although it is extremely humorous that Christians consider themselves to be monotheistic. But the same problems exist for the current religions as for the older ones. The stories that comprise the religions are nonsense. There was no flood. There was no Exodus. The universe was not created in six days and since the bible gets the order wrong as well, it is absurd to try and pretend it is true.
        
        I really do not care if there are 1000 good Christians or 2 billion. The religion is nonsense. ALL religions are nonsense. I understand the allure of religion. It is the same allure as mind altering drugs. It takes you to a place where you feel safe and comfortable. But they both offer the same thing, which is a pretend reality.
        
        I know you will disregard this comment and that is fine. I am not really writing it for you. I am writing it for people who are not yet lost to the god delusion. I want them to know there is a response to the mind numbing silliness of religion.
      - Esther
        
        absurd
  - R Sava
    
    Jeff,
    Whether you want to admit it or not, He is your God also.
    We are not on this earth for our purpose but for His.
    God did not "let" bad things happen on 9/11. Adam and Eve caused bad things to happen whe they ate the apple and fell from God's favor.
    Before the fall it was a perfect world.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Repeating nonsense does not suddenly make it true.
      - seektruth
        
        Right on!
        but we do KNOW something IS true.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Science has informed us of many facts about the universe, that is true.
      - seektruth
        
        But science has no science that tells us this is the ONLY way to know to truth. And science has many times been quite wrong. And science will never tell us WHY?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There does not have to be a reason.
        You are right, science has been wrong before. I never stated it was always right. But when we know something about the universe, we obtain that information from science.
      - seektruth
        
        But science itself can't be used to prove that science is the only test of truth.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You can't stand the truth, can you? You hate the truth which is so sad.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I embrace truth. It is nonsense that annoys me.
      - Evermyrtlej
        
        You do not even know what the truth is, so how can you accept it. But, I promise , you will come face to face one day wit the truth. I may be too late then.
      - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
        
        Of course I know what truth is. However, it is obvious you consider fiction to be truth.
      - Esther
        
        I'd like it to be that way too. Reality is not always so pleasant. Is it for you, Jeff?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it is not always pleasant. Is it always pleasant for you? If not, why not?
      - Esther
        
        The reality of that awful scripture on this page which you quoted to start. Did you know that Joseph Smith said we should use the KJV to the extent it is correctly translated, and he actually began the process of reinterpretation, but was killed before it was completed? In fact he did very little on the project. And those he did, are much more pleasant.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The idea of the correct translation is what has started wars before.
      - Esther
        
        I know I am being narrow-minded when I talk about my faith, only because I have had little time to focus on it with a busy career! But I am trying to justify what I do know and that is: There are many passages in the bible that make God and/or Jesus to seem as though they have characteristics of Satan! For example when Christ talks to him mother, in the KJV he seems to be insulting her. Joseph Smith though, rewrote it in such a way that shows he has a deep respect for her. I think if the book is going to be a manual of sorts for how people should treat other people, someone like Joseph smith has to come along and re-write out the contradictions. Some of these watered-down versions only do just that "water it down", with the result being a loss of nuance. You are right about there being so many contradictions. But don't you agree that such a book, well written to such a point that contradictions are edited out, is very much needed? Can you imagine anyone doing away with their bible? Therefore wouldn't it be reasonable to have that new kind? I think Satan, if he does exist, loves all this contention the other one brings, don't you agree?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        There was a reason the Joseph Smith died before he could "rewrite" THE WORD OF GOD." Could it be because GOD did not want Joseph Smith to rewrite "HIS WORD?" You can be sure that Satan exists, this same WORD tells us about Satan. If you do not accept all of HIS WORD, your life as what you term Christian, is a total waste.
        
        If you cannot represent the entire Bible you are doing a horrible disservice to GOD you are leading people astray.
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle, I do no disservice to God and humanity. And please refrain from any mention of anything you know nothing about with respect to Joseph Smith. The religion this good man was called upon to establish is doing extremely well as you can see looking at Ann and Mitt Romney, devoted public servants. I agree with Jeff that you are full of contradiction just like your bible, however well intentioned you mean to be, yet you continue to blast away as though you are completely in the right, as he has also repeatedly pointed out.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        In other words, you do not think GOD would have spared Smith's life if HE wanted him to rewrite the Bible? I think you are wrong, if that was a job that GOD assigned to Smith he would not have died before finishing it.
        
        Accomplishments? Anybody doing any better, accomplished more that Obama, though evil, I cannot imagine. I believe you think more of Jeff than he thinks of you. Jeff is a very smart man except to the time it come to GOD AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. I expect he knows exactly what you are, too, he can tell by your comments, the thoughts that you writ down
      - Esther
        
        Now what church do you attend?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        The church or sect, again?? It is not LDS?
      - Esther
        
        I don't think you know what a sect is Myrtle!!!. This is the 10th time that I ask and you are just revealing this. I mean WHAT IS YOUR CHURCH DENOMINATION OR AFFILIATION?
      - Esther
        
        You are too full of contradiction to understand the Mormons.
        
        I think you won't tell me your sect because your sect has a very nefarious past. doesn't it Myrtle?
      - Esther
        
        Bounce back to Myrtle "You do not even know what the truth is, so how can you accept it. But, I promise , you will come face to face one day wit the truth. I may be too late then."~EverMyrtle
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Which truth is that? The LDS church is a sect?
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle you are hilarious. YOU WROTE THAT … you tell me what it means… even you CAN'T READ YOUR OWN great literature
        
        By the way, yes all groups of religions are religious sects,iIncluding the LDS church.
      - Esther
        
        These are the kind of stories that make me feel like Jeff is right. But I do think we need a good book.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff, you said "
        The idea of the correct translation is what has started wars before." Just what do you mean? And please give me an example.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff please give an example of this… this reminds me I have to check to see if my book on burning is in the library!! :)
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is probably more accurate to say difference in doctrine has started wars then disagreements in translations. I apologize.
      - Esther
        
        thank you Jeff (the voice of sanity)
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is humorous because I try to offer rational responses. And yet, I occasionally offer emotional ones. Sigh, I guess I am human.
      - Esther
        
        We all are human, Mr. Dixon. Sometimes, it is just hard to keep one's composure!
      - Esther
        
        Though disagreements in translations is what the Reformation was (is) about? Is it not?
      - http://www.facebook.com/leah.radcliff Leah Rudd Radcliff
        
        "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God"…..Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It also gives us this gem. Strange how people disregard the bible.
        
        <>
        
        Behold, I will rebuke your offspring, and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings, and you shall be taken away with it.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You need to remember that scripture. Malachi 2: 2 gives the reason for this verse. GOD is talking to priests who have not followed HIS word and are "following Satan" I believe that refers to those who call themselves Christian, who are not Christian today if we refuse to give HIM the honor that is due HIM as the creator and owner of all things.
        
        Malachi 2:2-3 If you will not hear, andif you will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, said the LORDO F HOSTS, I will even send acurse upon you ,and I will curse your blessing: yes, I have cursed them already, because you do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces even the dung on your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with.
      - Esther
        
        What is your religious sect???
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Heavens, I believe she has lost it, the third time she has asked that question.Her sect must be preying on her mind.
      - Esther
        
        No, Myrtle, it has been pseudo-Christians preying on my mind and when I asked you to review some conversations you lead me to believe that I deserved the idiot criticism I received, so instead of trusting you, I am asking before I divulge anything more of my personal information, that I have the good pleasure to know the religious sect of whoever wishes to speak to me about religion. Except Jeff but I already know his "religion."
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am an open book of information.
      - Esther
        
        It is really pleasant to know someone so passionate about something, and you are everywhere, Mr. Dixon!
      - Esther
        
        And a good one, at that: accessed 091312
        
        TUESDAY, JULY 10, 2012Martin Luther Said: The Individual Christian Is Subject To No Authority
        "…every Christian is by faith so exalted above all things that, by virtue of a spiritual power, he is lord of all things without exception, so that nothing can do him any harm. As a matter of fact, all things are made subject to him and are compelled to serve him in obtaining salvation." (From the essay,' Freedom of a Christian,' 'Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 63.)"Injustice is done those words 'priest,' 'cleric,' 'spiritual,' 'ecclesiastic,' when they are transferred from all Christians to those
        few who are now by a mischievous usage called 'ecclesiastics.'" (Ibid., p. 65.)Luther teaches that we don't need anyone between us, the community of believers, and our Savior. So he objects to ecclesiastical authority — and the hierarchy which exercises it. God is with the entire congregation, he says, so why should we bother with a priest.Sounds great. Until you realize that this position echoes that of Moses' sister, the prophetess Miriam, who protests in Numbers Chapter 12, "Is it through Moses alone that the Lord speaks? Does he not speak through us also?" For her rebellion against the authority established by God, she contracts leprosy. Thanks to Moses' intercessory prayer, she is cleansed.And she is followed just a few chapters later by Korah, who incites the people against Moses and Aaron in the most disturbing words of all. They say, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's congregation?" Whereupon Korah and his followers were consumed by fire sent by the Lord. (Numbers 16.)
        
        If Luther is correct, then the bible stories of Miriam and Korah show a great injustice. If Luther is incorrect, on what basis can he be assumed to be a good teacher of biblical faith?
        Posted by jwdixon at 7:27 AM http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/2012/07/martin-luther-said-individual-christian.html#comment-form
      - Esther
        
        Response to Rational Responses above:
        
        I think Luther is correct in his distrust in ecclesiastical authority given his experience. But really he was ignorant how the true organization was meant to be, although it is fully biblically, as you quoted, reflected in the experiences of Miriam and Korah. Thus, by the same token, he is incorrect, while due to his limited knowledge, he definitely made an extremely important contribution: unable to execute a true schism, he did initiate the true schism necessary to restart the biblical faith by new groups; these groups it would seem do fully understand the ecclesiastical pattern as it is practically shown (proven?) to work in the historical groups of the biblical faith.
        
        I think mankind will not live without the protections of such good groups, as long as the bad ones are still around.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        To answer your question, you never asked me what church or what denomination I belonged to, you asked me what sect, I belonged, to over and over and over. I do not belong to any sect, at all. Now I will give you the same honor and ask you for the first time, "What sect do you belong to?" I did honor you before and never asked you such an insulting question but now I would like to know. This is no demand of any kind, you are free, as am I to answer or not to answer.
        
        I do not know of any church or denomination that believes exactly the same way as I do. I get all of my belles from GODS HOLY WORD and have been taught to believe and follow, or obey all of it, that there is none of it that will ever be out of date.
      - Esther
        
        not interested in anything of yours
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is still nonsense to consider that an all powerful god is going to spread dung on peoples faces.
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle dung?
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle said: "GOD is talking to priests who have not followed HIS word and are "following Satan" I believe that refers to those who call themselves Christian," that you Myrtle?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        There are many who call themselves Christians who are not Christians. HIS word refers to many priests who are not Christians. I did not pick that out of the air. Are you asking me if I am a Christian. I accept JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD and who is my SAVIOR but still am a sinner, though a repentant sinner. HIS WORD teaches me that if I say I have no sin that I am a liar and the truth is not in me. I'll ask you the same question that you asked me, do you follow His rules: No, I believe you asked me if I was like the priest that served Satan, that refer to you Esther??
        
        Adios, Esther!
      - Esther
        
        Jeff will be in the higher heaven, Myrtle! 1 Corinthians 15:41
        There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
      - Eric
        
        OK. So you are appealing to a book that you say is "full of contradictions"
        to prove that an avowed atheist is going to be in the "higher heaven"?
        What sort of pure silliness is this? Is this an example of the kind of twisted logic that Joseph "the Glasslooker" Smith would have used to "reinterpret" the Bible?
      - Esther
        
        What is your Christian religious sect, Eric? And I will tell you.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Esther has something on her mind tonight, she is concerned about sects, like hers. I am not sure her church is a sect, that is what I have heard.
      - Esther
        
        You can tell Eric about the several attacks that you have been delighted to witness against the Mormons, and you Myrtle, as an observer satanist.
      - fliteking
        
        Wow, I mean Wow! What diagnosis are you?
      - Esther
        
        All churches are sects Myrtle… but if you prefer… denominations
      - Esther
        
        Eric: What is your Christian Religious sect?
      - Esther
        
        No reply. How shocking.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Don't worry. Atheists are not going to a higher heaven. It is impossible to go to someplace that does not exist.
      - Esther
        
        Eric… all religions are revealed religions …
      - Evermyrtle
        
        OK what about Matthew 6-34??? What do you think about that chapter.
      - Esther
        
        Another contradiction???
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Contradiction about what? There is nothing contradictive about a simple question, unless you don't want to answer it.
      - Esther
        
        YOU SENT THE ABOVE
        
        Matthew 6:34 Therefore
        do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has
        enough trouble of its own..
        
        I SENT THIS, SEE FARTHUR ABOVE
        
        1 Corinthians 15:41
        
        There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory
        of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
        
        Better worry about tomorrow, at least plan ahead for it, because your position in one of the three glories is at stake!!!! that is an example of a contradiction. The bible is full of them..
      - petroskhan
        
        I have to ask…you seriously believe that when God's Kingdom is established, Jeff will be accorded some sort of place/honor therein?
        
        You actually believe that someone who denies the very existence of God, denies the sacrifice of His Son, and turns his back on the Scriptures, will be granted a place alongside those who obeyed God's will?
      - Esther
        
        Hi Petroskhan: You are right! Just ignore the nonsense. You and I both know it is absurd … note Jeff's response. For once we are on the same page. It's not worth my or your time to try to explain the joke, if you will.
      - petroskhan
        
        Got it. At least there is something we can agree on. :D
      - Esther
        
        What is your religious sect?>
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Your just asked that question, How old are you? Is your mind getting a little fuzzy?
      - Esther
        
        LOL That's your fuzz I am addressing…. I have asked it several times to give you a chance to come straight out with it. But I think you think I might attack, after you did me. Is your master Satan?
      - fliteking
        
        I bet a lot annoys you. Your hatred . . . it is on your sleeve.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        As with much of what you believe, you are wrong.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff is quite the opposite of what you have blasted all over this page.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I don't remember blasting anything over this page, I'll look for it and if I find I will apologize.
      - Esther
        
        What is your religious sect?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I know what sect you belong to but like you, I don't have to answer questions.
      - Esther
        
        You were sneaky to find our what mine was so you could attack me. I know why you won't tell me yours. It's because you are ashamed of its history. And you are afraid that I will hold you accountable as you have held me accountable. You are less than Christian. You deny your sect. AS far as I know it could be Satan that you worship. Is it?
      - fliteking
        
        Wow, right out of the Progressive Play Book. Loaded with innuendo and guilt. Must be frustrating to be limited to such a game plan and still not get the intended response.
        
        Esther AKA "Larry" brings a whole new meaning to the word "Simple".
        
        Big world out there, you should step forward, not marinate in Progressive hatred.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Thanks for your support fliteking!!
      - fliteking
        
        Any time! Your intentions are very good, I respect that!
      - petroskhan
        
        Actually, if you are following the Bible, you DO have to answer questions.
        
        1 Peter 3
        "15 But sanctify the Messiah as
        Sovereign in your hearts, and always
        be ready to give an answer to everyone
        asking you a reason concerning the
        hope of your faith, with meekness and
        fear,"
      - Esther
        
        Thanks Petros. I appreciate your chiming in.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        That is when someone is asking for information that will make a difference in their faith, not questions that will do nothing for them, that are nosy, that is none of their business. If anyone ask me anything about the WORD OF GOD I will do my very best to answer to the best of my knowledge. BUT, What is your sect??? I don't have a "sect!" I only know what she is because advertizes it not that I would ever have asked her because it is none of my business. She did not ask because she cared, she was "baiting me"as would many non-Christians will do, like a child bullying someone he doesn't like. I'm sure she will be unhappy to know I figured out what she was up to.
      - fliteking
        
        Such a personal question to many people – - – something you would fear to ask a Muslim because of the repercussions yet freely ask a Christian.
        
        Are you fueled by hatred? Start rant here ______________
      - Esther
        
        LOL
      - fliteking
        
        Depth? Shallow, nearly evaporated.
        
        Esther is really the girl you want, right? Is your real name Larry?
      - fliteking
        
        You are the one making sense in this conversation. You have nothing to apologize for. You are offering insight on eternal life . . . as these two (fill in blank) __________ proffer little more than "canned dogma" that limits ones insight and Soul.
      - fliteking
        
        Gee, such a deep addition to the conversation. Typical liberal atheism in action. Accusatory and laced with guilt, yet no real message. Nice job.
      - Esther
        
        "Repeating nonsense does not suddenly make it true."~Jeff
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Who said anything about repeating it? but are right repeating and not paying attention to what you are saying, is no good, at all. You must pray according to
        GOD'S will.
      - fliteking
        
        Great insight.
      - fliteking
        
        Truth may someday find a place in Jeff's life, but I doubt anytime soon.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You are 100% correct so just remember that when you begin to spew these irrational comments. You are wasting your time, and behaving like a fool at the same time, and proving that you are an anti-CHRIST.
        
        I know that you are really a very intelligent person, I can't believe that you have gone so astray in what is the most rational and important thing that that exists in this universe that GOD made.
      - Esther
        
        You are full of contradiction as Jeff has shown us your bible is full of contradiction.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        How so? I have not changed my mind about Jeff. Except for his non belief I have never mentioned anything against him. Jeff is a very brilliant man, except his hangup about the TRINITY.
        
        I thought my Bible was the same as your Bible, am I wrong??? The only difference I thought is that you refuse to use all of it. am I wrong about this, too? No, you do not have to answer my questions!!!
      - Esther
        
        Evermyrtle • a day ago • parent
        
        Jeff Dixon: Muttering a prayer will not save you, you must talk to HIM, but you can use the pattern prayer that HE gave us, if you mean the words, if you speak them from your heart.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Esther,,,,, Only if he you are born again , according to the Bible, not, bom.
      - Esther
        
        Thanks Pastor Dwayne, I do appreciate it and I have made the right decision.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        With the wrong Jesus, is your problem.
      - Esther
        
        Pastor Dwayne… why do folks not want to divulge their religious affiliation on this site?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I have it is Pentecostal, Now explain to me Gal 1:8-9, when God never commanded angels to spread the word, explain to me please, about the angel Moroni????????, and his role in Mormonism??
      - Esther
        
        Not so Pastor Dwayne. I guess the best way to explain it to you may be associated with this word: What does the word non-denominational mean to you? Let's start there and see if you can understand my stance within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Non-denominational are churches that are full of ex-catholics, ex-mormons, ex prebryterian, ex-lutherans, ex-methodists, and on and on that have been truly born again, and left their churches to seek the truth. Which by the way when non-believers see all the diff. denominations in one church they are curious and go to the non-denomination, Pentecostal churches , and get born again!!!!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is no right Jesus to choose from.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff has no problem quote myrtle "except his hangup about the TRINITY."????? It is you Myrtle who has a "hangup" about the Trinity, not Jeff.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Do you have a clue what or who the TRINITY is? I didn't think so!
      - Esther
        
        Again you pry into my beliefs. I contend that your knowledge of it is basically zero next to my knowledge of it. Any deeper I would have to know your sect.
        
        I would wager Jeff knows about it as much as I do.
      - Esther
        
        Again you pry into my beliefs. THE TRINITY? I contend that your knowledge of it is basically zero next to my knowledge of it. Any deeper I would have to know your denomination. I wager Jeff knows about it as much as I do.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The Trinity has confused Christians for centuries. I suspect you have no clue about it either.
      - Esther
        
        Answer: The Council of Nicea took place in 325 A.D. by the order of the Roman Emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine. Nicea was located in Asia Minor, east of Constantinople. At the Council of Nicea, Emperor Constantine presided over a group of Church bishops and leaders with the purpose of defining the true God for all of Christianity and eliminating all the confusion, controversy, and contention within Christ’s church. The Council of Nicea affirmed the deity of Jesus Christ and established an official definition of the Trinity—the deity of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under one Godhead, in three co-equal and co-eternal Persons.
        
        Constantine, a converted Christian (debatably), called for a council meeting to be held in Nicea with the bishops of the Christian church to resolve escalating quarrels and controversy mounting to a bitter degree of disunity among the church leadership concerning theological issues. The failing Roman Empire, now under Constantine’s rule, could not withstand the division caused by years of hard-fought, “out of hand” arguing over doctrinal differences. He saw it not only as a threat to Christianity but as a threat to society as well. Therefore, at the Council of Nicea, Constantine demanded that the Christians settle their internal disagreements and become Christ-like agents who could bring new life into a troubled, beaten-down empire. Constantine felt “called” to use his authority to help bring about the unity, peace, and love, all for which Christ stands. He and the bishops had reason to worry about the future survival of Christianity within the Roman world empire, let alone the survival of his world empire. The Council of Nicea, led by Emperor Constantine, was the meeting to settle differences, to become like-minded, all to the glory of Christ.
        
        The main theological issue and focus had always been about Christ. Since the end of the Apostolic Age and beginning of the Church Age, saints began questioning, debating, fighting, and separating over the question, “Who is the Christ?” Is He more divine than human or more human than divine? Was Jesus created / made or begotten? Being the Son of God, is He co-equal and co-eternal with Father God, or less and lower in status than the Father? Is the Father the One and only True God, or are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit the One true God? “True God of True God,” “One Being, Three Persons”, a tri-unity called “Trinity”? Jesus said, “Who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15).
        
        Once the Nicea Council meeting was underway Constantine demanded that the 300 bishops make a decision by majority vote defining who Jesus Christ is. Constantine commanded them to create a “creed” doctrine that all of Christianity would follow and obey, a doctrine that would be called the “Nicene Creed,” upheld by the Church and enforced by the Emperor. The bishops voted to make the full deity of Christ the accepted position for the church. The Council of Nicea voted to make the Trinity the official doctrine of the church. However, the Council of Nicea did not invent these doctrines. Rather, it only recognized what the Bible taught, and systematized the doctrines.
        
        The New Testament taught that Jesus the Messiah should be worshipped and trusted, which was/is to say He is co-equally God and man. The New Testament forbids the worship of angels (Colossians 2:18; Revelation 22:8, 9) but commands worship of Jesus. The Apostle Paul tells us that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9; 1:19). Paul declares Jesus as Lord and the One to whom a person must pray for salvation just as one calls on Jehovah, Yahweh (Joel 2:32; Romans 10:9-13). “Jesus is God overall” (Romans 9:5), and our God and Savior (Titus 2:13). Faith in Jesus’ Deity is basic to Paul’s testimony and theology.
        
        John’s Gospel declares Jesus the be the Divine eternal Logos, agent of creation and source of life and light (John 1:1-5, 9); the "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6); an advocate with heavenly Father (1 John 2:1-2); sovereign (Revelation 1:5); the Rider on a white horse (Revelation 19:11-16); and the totality of the Son of God from the beginning to the end (Revelation 22:13). The author of Hebrews reveals the full deity of Jesus through His perfection as the most high priest, Melchizedek (Hebrews 1; Hebrews 7:1-3), and the full humanity (Hebrews 2). The Divine-human Savior is the Christian's object of faith, hope, and love.
        
        The Council of Nicea did not invent the doctrine of the deity of Christ. Rather, the Council of Nicea affirmed the Apostles' teaching of who Christ is—the One true God in Deity and Trinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father
        being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ
        is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but
        both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was
        begotten–just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father,
        and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the
        Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is
        to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is
        declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these
        three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once
        one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction
        if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if
        we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other
        two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd
        than the dogma of the Trinity." (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67).
      - Esther
        
        I entirely agree. I was giving the Nicean version that is acceptable by the Catholic and Protestant sects, originally voted upon to be The Truth unanimously by supposed brilliant Catholic theologians, which later – and up to this day – upheld to be the True nature of God by Protestants as well.
      - PaulN
        
        Esther, you call yourself a Mormon yet you denounce the validity and varacity of the Bible? The Mormon website itself professes the King James version of the Bible is a Holy document and the source reference for all other documents. Is this not true or are you you not a true Mormon?
      - Esther
        
        PaulN: Due to the nefarious attacks on Mormons on this website I will not be speaking to anyone about my religion until they divulge their denomination to me. I love the quad, that includes the KJV, but I also have a degree in philosophy of religion that includes some knowledge of world religions but really my studies are not too indepth (its a B.A. degree). I enjoy searching and learning more.Sorry for the confusion. I often feel like questions asked are unreasonable. Thank you for your comment.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is nothing irrational about pointing out that the bible is full of absurdities and contradictions. What is sad is that you can read these verses and pretend they come from an all powerful god.
      - fliteking
        
        Something you in particular should be very familiar with by now . . . in reviewing your posts it is clear you are not.
    - Retired guest
      
      That's when the Democrats came along and everything went to Hell!
  - Evermyrtle
    
    GOD has a reason for everything. It is not our right to question HIM. HE made us, we are HIS creation and can do as HE pleases. I can not begin to explain why HE did not save them, because I do not know. I do know, if I could tell you why HE did it, I would agree that it was the right thing to do. HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING.
    
    You and I will meed HIM face to face one day. At time HE will divide the HIS children fro the one that Satan has won. That is the day I am looking forward to.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      You cannot explain it because it because it is impossible to explain nonsense.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        It bothers you because you are lost and will go wherever your master is, when you pass away. JESUS CHRIST will gather every person who has ever lived and HE will separate us in two groups, He will send HIS people to HIS right and the others will go to HIS left. Those on HIS right will reign with HIM forever in HIS Kingdom which He has prepared for us, from the beginning. Those on the left? You can find that in Matthew 25: 41-46. Oh yes, I know you do not believe but you will be right there, with the rest of us, at that time, the end of time. I don't think it is too late, you can still accept HIM and be saved.
      - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
        
        I do not have a "master". And neither do you. We are both simply humans. Yet you allow myths written by bronze age primitives to dictate how you lead your life. It is sad yet pathetic.
      - Esther
        
        That is true of some Christians,Jeff, but not of the Mormons.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Really?
      - Esther
        
        Joseph was not primitive. Really!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Did he have the education you have?
      - Esther
        
        He has more than I have in terms of religious education. Have you read the Geneva bible? That is likely the one he learned from and at an early age. His mother and brother were Presbyterian church members.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        A religious education does little to help one understand how the universe actually operates. It claims fiction as fact.
      - Esther
        
        I answered your question. You did not specify science.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not need to specify science. I merely asked if you were better educated.I would say you are.
        Religion is hardly the only way to craft stories about doing good. You do not need to burn books to consider the ideas presented in them as fiction. And that is what all religious texts are.
      - Esther
        
        Not in religious education, Jeff, am I better educated than him. I suppose yes technically I have been through those classes. But as I have said before in science there is an infinity of knowledge, and at this point in time, knowing there is an infinity of time ahead of us, Joseph is no more primitive than anyone else.
        
        Also I did not say one has to defer to the bible to include the concepts of good or evil in a good book, just that major writers that I have enjoyed have done so. Religious thought at the time of writing by these two authors — of many more great ones I might add — have used the bible to write parallel stories and develop good and evil characters. I find it hard to believe however that some influence of the knowledge of good and bad did not come from the bible, though I agree there is a lot of contradiction there.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I believe, you told me that you did not answer questions, that Mommy and Daddy said that was not necessary AND you did not answer my questions.
      - Esther
        
        You are going to attack my goodly parents?
        What are you muttering about now?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        What did I say about your parents?? I only repeated something that you told me. I was not attacking, I was reminding you, I had no idea that it would embarrass you. I apologize!!
      - Esther
        
        I don't believe you have the reasoning ability, to have earned my trust
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Did I ask you to trust me? I don't care if you do or if you don't. I know one thing, " I did rattle your cage."
      - Esther
        
        This is Myrtle, as insincere as a pseudo-Christian can be: "What did I say about your parents?? I only repeated something that you told me. I was not attacking, I was reminding you, I had no idea that it would embarrass you. I apologize!!" Quote from above, totally insincere.
        
        I do want to protect my parents from nefarious influence. I guess you found my weakness: my family. I suppose you wouldn't understand.
      - Esther
        
        I did. I believe you are now taking liberties with my family. You seem to want to get too familiar with my family? Are you a mafia member, is my concern.
        
        Your questions are nonsense as Jeff has told you time and time again, and you keep at it, so I wonder about your ability to understand.
        
        What is your religious sect? Maybe we can help you.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I started to say that I did not know you had a family, but I do remember that you spoke of Mommie and Daddy, By the way, how are they? My Daddy has been dead 20 years my Mom has been dead 45 years. I hope yours fare better!!!
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Not being born again , would make him not think much of it , so he had to re-interpret KJV . That would be like Atheists re-interpreting KJV……
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Atheists need not worry about re-interpreting KJV. Christians do it themselves all the time.
      - seektruth
        
        But it is you who has made a dogmatic claim to know what happens to all when we die. I have made no such claim.
        I would also pit your post modern, intellectual elitism up against Jesus and Paul any day.
      - Esther
        
        "post modern, intellectual elitism" please, seektruth, let's not put Jeff in this box, or any box. You believe you are a truth seeker, well, so is he
        , and he uses his real name. Who is the elitist here? Not him!!
      - seektruth
        
        Esther,
        You're not paying very close attention to his claims and the implications of them.
        and it matters not that he uses his real name (can't be sure any way on a comment site)
      - Esther
        
        I pay close attention sir. Here is what I get: People who will not tell what their religion is, in the hopes of degrading mine. Yes, he is perhaps from the Christian faith, but I know a lot of really terrible things about certain Christian sects, so I do not want to speak to any one without knowing their religion. Don't you think that is fair? To which sect do you belong?
      - Esther
        
        What is your religious sect? (not the section of church you sit in, but your RELIGIOUS SECT)
      - Esther
        
        Yes I am paying attention to his claims. He has in the past shown proof of the short answers he is giving today. Engage him in a debate and see if you think he doesn't have a point.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course you think you know what happens to people when they die. It is part of the Christian belief system. I have never claimed I know what happens. I merely know that the biblical god cannot exist.
      - seektruth
        
        Quote: "At the end of the day, what happens is merely the roll of the dice." Sounds like a claim to know something about our end of life.
        "I merely know that the biblical god cannot exist."
        And how do you know that? What proof do you offer that this god of the Bible does not exist? No only doesn't, but "cannot"?
        You claim that Christians are absurd, yet we certainly aren't making a claim to know all of reality as you are.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is a comment about probability which has a little to do with dying, but has more to do with what occurs on a daily basis.
        
        I have never claimed to know everything. That is the the Christian statement of what they believe, not the atheist's.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I can say with 200% accuracy that I have a Master, one that I am not very loyal to because I fail HIM every day but guess what, HE HAS NEVER FAILED ME. Your master prevents you seeing what my MASTER is capable of.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You are just to right in your opinion that many Christians are the most corrupt of all people. Some have no intention for living for GOD but for self. Others I believe have good intentions but they, even though they can explain certain scriptures to perfection, will totally ignore other scriptures, as passe' some of the the VERY WORDS OF JESUS,HIMSELF, some of which they go 100% in a opposite direction than where he scriptures lead. Still there are those that strive everyday to live according to HIS WORD. If you want toot know where many Christians stand just ask the direct question on how they believe on given subjects. One question you could ask is, Will there or are there marriages in heaven? Of course JESUS CHRIST says not. I feel sure your are familiar with Revelation 22:18-20
      - Esther
        
        Now she toots Christians are the most corrupt.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Did I toot? I am sorry that you cannot under my plain English, but as we were raised in two different religious surroundings, I am not surprised.
      - Esther
        
        You said you did in the above comment
      - Evermyrtle
        
        What was it that I tooted? Did I tweak it your nose?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        And then there are the ones who are so self deluded that they actually believe they understand anything.
      - Esther
        
        Muttering again Myrtle?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Do I need to repeat It??Let me know, and I'll try to explain it a little better. By the way, as you once told me, I was not talking to you!!
      - Esther
        
        "
        Muttering a prayer will not save you"~Myrtle
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You do have something about muttering, don't you? Is it because you can't speak plainly and mutter, mutter,mutter……
      - Esther
        
        IT IS A QUOTE FROM LITTLE OLE YOU MYRTLE LOL:
        
        Evermyrtle • a day ago • parent
        =========================
        Muttering a prayer will not save you, you must talk to HIM, but you can use the pattern prayer that HE gave us, if you mean the words, if you speak them from your heart.
        
        lol
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I speak very clearly. It is sad you cannot understand what is said.
      - Esther
        
        There is no such thing as 200% accuracy. Do you belong to a magic sect?? What is you sect Myrtle?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I guess your master has fooled you into believing that somethings that cannot occur are possible. It is impossible to achieve 200% accuracy. I now see why you believe the fictions of the bible.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Rather like the odds of probability. It happens to some but not to all. At the end of the day, what happens is merely the roll of the dice.
      - seektruth
        
        Do you have any SCIENTIFIC PROOF of this assertion?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        On the laws of probability? There is much literature on the topic. Read up.
      - Esther
        
        How often do you go to roll your dice Myrtle?
      - Esther
        
        What now Myrtle?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Indeed I do, I have two of them, JESUS CHRIST AND HIS AND MY FATHER GOD. How about you, are you your own master??
      - Esther
        
        Here is a little present: "You cannot explain it because it because it is impossible to explain nonsense."
      - Evermyrtle
        
        To some people it is impossible to explain, anything.
      - Esther
        
        I am a student of reason. Yes it is impossible to get any one to understand nonsense.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        For some people it is impossible to expect they understand anything.
      - Esther
        
        What sect do you attend?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I moved to the sect on front row when I saw you sitting on the opposite side of the church, from me.
      - Esther
        
        LOL, I do not attend you denomination! Are you ashamed of your sect?
      - Esther
        
        I don't answer sacred questions of people who will attack me at the same time as they went behind my back or took advantage of my good nature to find out my religious sect.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        We are all our own masters. However, many are willing to give up that concept.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You have two masters? Jesus and the father god? But they are only one god according to the myth.
      - Esther
        
        If you are a real follower of an infinite Father you would know that he has an infinite number of things to tell us. You know about the three glories. It is likely you will not be in the higher glories where Jeff will be, because you are stagnant and he is not.
      - Esther
        
        How often do you go to roll your dice Myrtle
      - PaulN
        
        Jeff, you are still nothing more than a hater! What have Christians ever done to you to make you hate them so? You cannot call yourself an atheist because you cannot hate something that dows not exist, therefore you are an Anti-theist. I can do nothing but pity you and ask you to spare yourself much pain and anguish and stop reading these sites. They obviously grieve you terribly!
      - Esther
        
        PaulN: I have seen the good Christians meter out as much hate as anyone. What will you expect they do?
      - PaulN
        
        Not all "Christians" are good Christians but all are human. Even good Christians can hate but to say "as much hate as anyone" is extreme at best. Are you meaning to imply that a good Christian could be a on the scale of Adolph Hitler? A good Christian would not be a serial hater. He would not perpetuate hate. If you wish to be known as a Christian you must at least attempt to emulate Him. Christ did not hate mankind, he came to save it. God (and by extension Christ) hates sin, not the sinner. He hates the actions, not the actor. Even though I dislike what Jeff Dixon has to say, I still pay for his eternal soul and hold hope that some day he might see the truth. Is that an act of hate? Jeff might believe so.
      - Esther
        
        Hitler's troops carried Christian tokens, and some were emblazoned on their uniforms to protect themselves from what they saw as the "evil" people who stood against them, also Pope Pius stood by Hitler during WWII
      - PaulN
        
        Hitler believed in magic, not God. He also used the swastica which was a Native American symbol of luck and properity. So what does this have to do with being a good Christian. Even if they claimed to be Christian, they were not as evidenced by their actions.
        Jeff will not accept anything related to God because there will not be any hard evidence to prove His existence until it is too late. He does not have doubts. In his mind, God does not exist and no amount of experiential evidence will change that; only the Holy Spirit can do that.
        Esther, don't let Jeff's contempt toward Christians overshadow your seeking the truth.
      - Esther
        
        You said Jeff is a hater. You don't know him if you think that. The point is people use outward symbols to profess what they want others to think they believe. The people of Germany thought God was on their side in destroying the Jewish people among others. That is what real hateful people do.
        
        Jeff is not against believing truth. I am repeating myself. Please, I see that clearly. I seek truth myself and I have been practically condemned for not seeing things the way other people see things on this very site. For heavens sake, we are all unique individuals. I know a lot of people who profess to be Christians who do not act like followers of Christ, that is the botttom line for me, and I see that in Jeff more than the others!
        
        Consider all the contradiction there is in the bible! Do you really think a God thinks that way? Full of contradiction?!!!!!!!!! No, PaulN, he doesn't. So what are you going to do about it? Ignore it? Or look for truth? You don't have to give up the faith you have to built on it by looking for truth! If your think your faith cannot withstand it when how are you going to strengthen it? What did Christ do? He went into the wilderness 40 days to be tempted, did he not. Aren't we supposed to follow in Christ's footsteps to strengthen our faith? I think Jeff is doing that from a different perspective than I am or you would. We are unique.
      - PaulN
        
        I cannot say that the people of Germany did not think God was on their side. Many were deluded into thinking they were right to the point that many still deny the terrible mass murder of Jews ant their leaderships hands.
        I don't say that Jeff does not seek to believe in truth, I say that he has blinded himself to possibilities that could lead to truth. To declare that anything cannot be simply because one can't see it is foolishness. He does not have an open mind.
        As for contradiction in the Bible? There is none. There have been attempts across the centuries to prove the Bible inaccurate or contractory to no avail. I encourage you to visit any number of sites that deal with purported contracictions. As a matter of fact, if you doubt the veracity of the Bible, why would you believe something as unlikely as a man fasting for 40 days?
        As for Jeff being a hater, all one needs do is look at how many times he has referred to Christians as fools or delusional. Sure he doesn't do it directly, he hides behind inuendo and subtlety
        Consider this; if one could prove one statement in the Bible to be false or contradictory, you could not believe any of it with any amount of certainty. That is the mission of most atheies (whom I refer to as anti-theists). Why would a person who does not believe in God spend so much time lurking in at a number of sites whose focus is God? He certainly isn't seeking enlightenment or he would be open to the MANY attempts to show him our experiences of God's intervention in our lives. His goal is to cast doubt in the minds of the less confident believers to draw them away. To what end I ask? I do not understand why someone would want to disuade someone from a path that could make them a better person. Is there something better about being an atheist than being a Christian? Does Jeff believe that? Or is he just bitter and wants to hurt others by breaking their "delusion" as he calls it. That would be arrogant at best!
      - Esther
        
        You can say a lot of things about Jeffrey Dixon, but subtle? No, Jeff is not subtle. Jeff is up front and truthful with everyone; He honestly believes as I do that a dose of reason is good for everyone especially in the face of contradiction. Jeff is an atheist, but is not a member of any atheist group. I am a member of the Mormon Church, more acurately called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints., formerly Catholic, but never Protestant, though I have studied the latter thoroughly. Want to know what I believe in terms of religion? Go to mormon.org. I am not entertaining anyone wanting a fight with me over anti-Mormon literature. But here ias the crux of the matter: There is not one up-front Christian on this site who will come out and say just exactly what is their sect and just what they believe. But they freely attack those of us who do! Of course I know why. I have earned my degree, so don't bother attacking me on the grounds of ignorance. The reason that Christians do not want to admit their sect is because they can be attacked in turn based on their own nefarious history and their belief in even the most lurid contradictions in the bible. That is, the way they have attacked me and the way they have attacked Jeff. I have seen it time and time again. You lit into Jeff and not once have I seen what you attend. So we are supposed to accept face value that you are the expert in our salvation.
      - PaulN
        
        Esther, I am FULLY aware of the Mormon beliefs. One of my best friends during my Army times was a Melchizedek priest. He even took me on a tour of the (then) new Tabernacle in Bellevue WA. We spoke a great deal about our similarities and our differences. Sect? I have none I am an independant Bible-believing Christian. I attend a Baptist church but they are also independant (not affiliated with Southern, American, Free Will, Regular, or any other affiliation). I believe that the Bible written by men but inspired by God. It is the infallable, inspirational Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ (as a man) is the son of the living God , sent to earth to show mankind that it was possible to live a sinless life and as a sinless man, offered himself a living blood-sacrifice for the remission of our sins, past and future, for those who accept Him and seek to emulate Him. He came to free us from the bondage of our sins so that any person willing to believe and accept His free gift (salvation) would be saved and have the promise of eternal life with Him.
        I further believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are at the same time one but are also individual (aka trinity) though this concept will not be understood by us before we see them face-to-face (aka rapture). Satan, a created being who was chief amoung angels, became vain and seeks to destroy our relationship with God through deception and temptation.
        I do not engage in bashing or abusing other peoples religion or sects except for where they claim to have none as that is purely a denial or a misunderstanding of their own beliefs (keeping in mind that religion does not require a deity e.g evolutionism is a religion of belief in a theory that has not yet been proven). I seek to present those of incompatible faith that there is a better way. Because I believe so strongly in Christ's redeeming salvation, I am compelled to present this good news to as many as possible to prevent them from suffering whatever horrible fate awaits them in the afterlife.
      - Esther
        
        PaulN, Thank you for your honesty as I do believe you are honest. It is rather rare to be questioned by someone who actually avoids the anti-Mormon literature. I am curious to know from you, have you met and talked to any young mothers in the Relief Society, the female arm of the church? While I know the priesthood organizations are the ones a young man would naturally be aware, I think you might need some perspective on how mothers view their children. Not that it is entirely different from the perspective you already know, but if your LDS friend is not a father then perhaps you have not had any discussions with him as to how we perceive children. I suggest that you ask him about it, not in a public forum, but in a man-to-man talk as you have done. Thank you for your comment.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am helping people not lost to the god delusion. It is actually very simple to understand.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        In other words, there will never be any hard evidence that Jesus existed or is god.
      - PaulN
        
        Either you are correct and neither of us will care as we will no longer exist, or I am correct and I will be very happily in paradise and you, well, maybe we shouldn't raise the topic of hell. Since neither of us can prove our points with "hard" evidence, I'll stick with what I know.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Those are hardly the only two options. It could be that the
        Muslims are right and we both end up in hell. It could be that the Buddhists
        are right and we end up back here on earth reincarnated as something new. It
        could be that everyone goes to heaven regardless of how they live their lives
        or that everyone goes to hell. There are many other viewpoints besides the two
        you mentioned.
      - petroskhan
        
        Calling Jeff a "doubting Thomas" is disingenuous at best, and insulting to Thomas as well. Jeff does not "doubt", he disbelieves. He is completely and totally against the idea of God, the Bible, and Our Savior. He rejects any proofs offered, feels that all Christians are delusional, and has no respect for the faith and values of Christians.
        
        Why you are such a fan of someone who disagrees with what should be the very foundation of your personal identity is, frankly, baffling.
      - Esther
        
        What's even more sad is the fact that you will not buckle down and focus to find out how Mormons really are, and when you would find out, you would understand everything you just told me is a fallacy. And you would understand that what Mormons believe is not diametrically opposed to Jesus Christ. Also, you would understand why we don't talk about sacred things, Petroskhan. Really.
      - petroskhan
        
        Esther, I've outlined several points in previous posts which I felt would be good topics for discussion in regards to how the Mormon faith differs from what is laid out in the Bible.
        
        Those points included the nature of God, the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and the reliability of Joseph Smith.
        
        You decided that you did not wish to discuss those points, and became quite bitter and a bit hostile, insulting my faith and me personally, simply because I disagreed with Mormonism and had questions. However much I may have contributed to your feelings, your actions are your own, just as much as my actions are my responsibility.
        
        I have no wish to revisit that unpleasantness, and will not pursue any issues regarding the Mormon faith with you without your expressed wish to do so.
        
        To respond to the points you've raised, I have studied the Mormon faith, and I find it lacking. It lacks logic, it lacks cohesion, and it lacks agreement with the Bible.
        
        Joseph Smith made prophecies that failed to come true. That is historical fact. The Bible states that if someone does as he did, then that person does not speak for God.
        
        The Book of Mormon makes several statements that in complete disagreement with the Bible on several topics.
        
        The Book of Mormon makes several statements that are not historically accurate, and cannot be reconciled with history.
        
        These things are not a matter of opinion. They are clear, indisputable facts which can be verified by anyone.
        
        Your constant insistence that I have not studied Mormonism is false. I HAVE studied it. On the other hand, it does seem to me, from your statements, that YOU have not studied it as well as I have. I doubt you've approached the topics I've raised with objectivity, nor have you studied the Bible as well as you could.
        
        You cannot realistically state that studying the Book of Mormon further will suddenly make me agree with the things that I have pointed out above. It's like saying that Buddhists are good and nice people, and if I only studied their ways, I would come to agree with them. Ain't gonna happen. My objections to Mormonism are based on logic, prayerful study, and the acceptance of the Bible as the inspired word of God.
        
        I understand that you don't agree with me, in the same way I hope you can understand that I don't agree with you. But that shouldn't preclude an intelligent, civil dialog on the subject. After all, we are, as I've pointed out, exhorted by the Bible to defend our faith, and explain its reasoning to those who question it.
        
        If you think that such would be of benefit, I am willing to engage in a discussion, and assure that no insults, denigrations or disparagements would proceed from my end.
        
        If, however, you hold to a negative feeling towards such a discussion, I completely understand, and will simply leave you with my best wishes for your progress along the path of faith.
        
        God Bless.
      - Esther
        
        My statement stands, as well. And though you will get "answers" you will only be satisfied in your anti-Mormon stance, which is your position of choice but is not the position of truth.
      - petroskhan
        
        I am fascinated by your statement, Esther, and am hoping with all sincerity that you can, and will explain it.
        
        You state that my position is a "position of choice but is not the position of truth."
        
        I am wondering…
        
        If it is a matter of record (both secular and otherwise) that Joseph Smith made prophecies that did not come to pass;
        
        If it is demonstrable that the BoM has passages that contradict the Bible;
        
        If the BoM makes statements that do not correlate with known, provable history;
        
        How is my position not a "position of truth"? And please understand, this is NOT a rhetorical question, nor I am looking for an argument. I would really, really like to know, to fully understand, what you mean by that statement, in light of what I've stated above.
      - Esther
        
        At the moment I am deeply involved in looking at contradiction that the expert in Reformed Theology, D. A. Carson has written: The Gospel According to John. And it isn't even anti-Christian literature. You can find the same kind of literature at FARMS at BYU Salt Lake City on the BofM.
      - petroskhan
        
        I understand completely. I hope we exchange ideas sometime in the future.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Offer real evidence and we can discuss it.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Again, you are not a Christin because you claim to be a Christian. To be a Christian you must walk the walk not only talk the talk. The only way a Christian would ever kill anyone is to protect ourselves or our family. This is a right given to us by GOD. In war??? Yes, there it is kill or be killed.
        
        jihad, Christian????? I don't think so!!!
        
        Bigotry in the South??? Sadly, we have bigotry anywhere we travel, in the world!!
      - Esther
        
        What sect do you belong to ???
      - Esther
        
        "Sadly, we have bigotry anywhere we travel, in the world!!"~ myrtle Oh No Myrtle, not like you.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Bigot? You mean you are a bigot, too?? I'm sorry to hear that!!
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I left you in the church, please don't follow me to my door. When you get to my door, yo are on my stomping grounds. I'm too tired to be bothered!!
      - Esther
        
        lol. unreasonable is a nice term for you, actually.
      - Esther
        
        more gibberish from Myrtle
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course it is not hate. It is simply nonsense.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        True Christians do have hate in our hearts, sometime but it is at the evils of the world that frustrate us and we do not spew it over everything we touch, or see, or heart. When we are caught in the wrong, we accept that we are wrong, and try not repeat the wrong.
      - Esther
        
        You are a "True Christian" ??? What sect do you belong to?
      - Esther
        
        Woe be on the person when you do. Nothing to stop you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        They cause me much amusement actually.
      - PaulN
        
        I pity you. That is just sad.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it is actually quite humorous.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        They embrace delusion. I hope to help them with that issue.
      - PaulN
        
        By substituting your own delusion? That is even more sad.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, by embracing reality. I am no prophet that hopes or expects people to follow me.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not hate Christians, I believe that religion causes much of the problems we see occurring in the world. Besides, your comment is nonsensical. Christians do exist. It is the foundation of their belief that is made up. And people can discuss things that are made up without believing in it. I can talk about unicorns, Zeus or round squares without believing they actually exist.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Because America has become a GODLESS nation, and after a time of non-repentance , God will judge. The Anti Christ with his SMALL group of men, 5 men in one plane, 5 men in the other plane. Let me translate Rev 18:2 Babylon the GREAT (AMERICA) is fallen ( the north Tower), is fallen , (the south tower) Finacial Babylon is fallen,
        America is the daughter of Babylon, Look at all the Gov't and State buildings, foundations made of stone or masonary!!! ASK yourself why the year 4,000 BC is on them?????????????
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        The Anti Christ ordered his SMALL group of men to fly into the towers…
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        About 4,000 BC being on buildings.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        In DC, all gov't and state building foundations have the year 4,000 BC on engraved on them. That was approx. the time frame original babylon became a power. Scripture says in the last days there would be a daughter of Babylon in the world. Just like old Israel was called zion, in the last days a daughter of zion would be established, in this case when Israel became a nation again in 1948..
        The year 4,000 BC on the foundations in DC is a n indicator of who America is, along with many many other scriptures..
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Do you have anything to support this absurd comment?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Jeff , why did you put absurd in your comment above?? Read , America, the Daughter of Babylon, call, 1- 80 0- 28 8- 46 77, to order, $1 4.9 5….
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Because you are absurd.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Jeff ,,, you are so smart in scripture and it/me is absurd, what nation do you think scripture is talking about when it states at the time of Israel restoration to a nation , 1948, the daughter of Babylon is the strongest military power at of all nations. Let's see 2 plus 2 equals U S A
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not think it is referring to any actual country.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What are you talking about?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Your are absolutely correct. There is no way to explain GOD'S GREATNESS HIS POWER, HIS READING OUR MINDS AND OUR HEARTS., HIS ABILITY TO CONTROL ALL THAT HE HAS MADE, TO CONTINUE TO KEEP THE WORLD RUNNING THROUGH ALL OF THESE YEARS. WE CAN ONLY SAY THESE THINGS ARE TRUE.
      - Esther
        
        "You cannot explain it because it because it is impossible to explain nonsense."
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Explain what? You are so rattled you can't ask a rational question.Have I gotten you that rattles?
      - Esther
        
        There are only two "parent" comments involved… the one above and the one above that. You can surely go from there. It is all about your quote.
      - Esther
        
        You cannot explain nonsense.
      - Esther
        
        again Myrtle: You cannot explain nonsense.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You can state it as much as you like. However, simply stating something has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.
    - Esther
      
      Satan wins those who accept and live by contradiction, Myrtle.
      - evermyrtle
        
        What do you mean contradiction? I do not mean to contradict anyone but I must speak the truth.
      - Esther
        
        Myrtle you are a constant contradiction. The "truth" you speak is often contradictory.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Do you have scripture for that, too? Let me hear it!!!
      - Esther
        
        I am sure your cult can provide you one,
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Plus, the Bible has no contradictions!!!
      - Esther
        
        I hope the powers that be, the persons who can, will eliminate them, because we need a good book free of errors… yes I know it was protected, but that evidently did not work completely
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I have the original Aramaic, translated only once into English…Believe me, there is no need to eliminate any of God's Word!!! There is a group that added to God's Word, by saying there were contradictions and began writing a new book, so they could hook people into a cult. If I were Satan I couldn't have done a better job. They even took scripture and twisted it to hook more people, """ other sheep I have""" , which was applied to the mormons, when in reality , before mormons existed , Jesus was talking to the entire Gentile world!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course not. lol.
      - Esther
        
        aren 't you going to the game Mr Dixon?
    - Esther
      
      What is your religious sect?.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I decided to leave all the sects to you when I saw you had followed me to the front of the church. Too much, or is ti many sects for me.!!! You can have them all.
      - Esther
        
        LOL I have no desire for your cult, Myrtle.
    - Esther
      
      Evermyrtle • a day ago • parent
      
      Jeff Dixon: Muttering a prayer will not save you, you must talk to HIM, but you can use the pattern prayer that HE gave us, if you mean the words, if you speak them from your heart.
  - petroskhan
    
    You form a question with your limited mind, to question things that are beyond your understanding. You attempt to apply your standards to the infinite, which is why your question makes no sense to believers; the answer to such a question will make no sense to you. Why even ask?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      We have to ask. It is what drives us as people. But your answer is absurd. The concept of god is not beyond the understanding of people. Mankind created the concept of god.
      - petroskhan
        
        The concept of God is not beyond our understanding; I never said it was. His reasoning, however IS. Which is why I stated (and will re-state) that it's pointless to ask for the reasons for His actions. His reasons are His own, and in many cases beyond our comprehension.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The concept of god and his reasoning are the same thing. They are both concepts created by people.
      - petroskhan
        
        Then, by that reasoning, counting to infinity is possible. Go for it.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The idea of god and infinity are not the same. You merely want to believe that god is infinite. However, you cannot even show that he exists.
      - petroskhan
        
        "The idea of god and infinity are not the same." Sure, in the same way that the idea of mathematics and numbers are not the same.
        
        And it's not that I want to believe that God is infinite. He is. What I want, the choice I have made, is to acknowledge that He exists, and accept the truth of that.
        
        "However, you cannot even show that he exists." True. I cannot show that He exists. At least, it's true to the extent that I cannot show that He exists to someone who is willfully making a decision to deny His existence in the face of the evidence that He does, and chooses to believe in the self-contradicting ideas of such fantasies as macroevolution and that whole "particles to people" thing that atheists cling to.
        
        But, it's all in how we choose to look at the universe, and which inherently "unprovable" ideology we accept as being backed by more substantive proof.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since you cannot show he exists, you cannot also claim to be able to describe his attributes. You have no idea if any god which exists would be infinite.
      - sektruth
        
        And you can't make the claim that He doesn't exist without inferring to know all of reality. For god may exist without your acknowledgment of him as we have free will. but to claim absolutely that God does not exist is a claim that you cannot make with intelictual honesty. For you DO NOT know all of reality!!!
      - petroskhan
        
        Nonsense. Anything can be described, without conclusively proving its existence or non-existence.
        
        If I described a creature as being large, reptilian, with huge wings, breathing fire, one would immediately envision a dragon. Yet, such creatures do not exist. How then can one describe its attributes?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since you cannot even show that this god exists, there is no way you can begin to claim to know what the attributes of this supposed god is. Therefore, when you claim he is infinite, it is because you want to believe that to be true.
      - petroskhan
        
        However, the evidence for His existence is there, and convincing. After accepting the proof given in the Bible as sufficient to prove His existence, His attributes are a given, from the same reliable source.
        
        The evidence for evolution, however, is lacking, incomplete, inconclusive and self-contradictory. Yet YOU, personally, "want to believe that to be true."
        
        Difference is, the Bible presents a far more logical explanation that the pseudo-science of evolution.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        The main issue is not many understand, What Adam started when he sinned , The Sinful Nature in ALL mankind, And The Lord's response to it!
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        NO, "in the beginning God created" Gen 1:1
    - Esther
      
      He has a right to ask such questions as he does as much as you do. You have a nerve to say he makes no sense. Your infraction of that quality is far worse, and besides. he never treats anyone beneath dignity as you often do.
      - petroskhan
        
        I never treat anyone as being beneath dignity. That is something people do to themselves.
        
        I do, however, treat certain ideas as being beneath dignity. Or, rather, let me say, that certain ideas do not deserve to be dignified with our respect.
        
        But that is a personal choice each of us must make on his own. If an idea is deemed to be worthy of respect, it must have merits and provable reasons for that respect. And we must, if we respect said ideas, be able to defend (or at least justify) that idea with sound reasoning.
      - Esther
        
        Also, Petroskhan, you do not recognize the difference between secret and sacred.
      - petroskhan
        
        Enlighten me, then.
      - Esther
        
        The basic premise between our religions are incoherent, not synchronous: I believe that God, if he exists, is all good, you believe that God has characteristics of Satan. That cannot be resolved so there cannot be a reasonable debate. Our last conversation is proof of it.
      - petroskhan
        
        Yet again you make assumptions regarding my religion, while showing that you don't really know what I believe.
        
        Which "characteristics of Satan" have you, on your own, assumed that I believe God possesses?
        
        And as far as our last conversation, I believe it ended with me expressing regret for any offense you may have taken, a sincere desire for you to grow in your faith and relationship to God, and my wish for you be well.
      - seektruth
        
        An absolute HOLY and "good" God would also be JUST. especially one that has standards of rightness. Just as Jeff is pointing to in his original question. How could a "good" God allow so many to die yet save that person, just because he prayed that prayer? (paraphrased)
        Of course this "good" God has done something about the evil that exists: Christ died for us!
      - Esther
        
        I should have qualified that as I have so many times and that is the God of Pope Calvin, whom I see as the ultimate Christian God and whom I do not worship. When one talks about that God, then one talks about not a just God but a prejudice God,e.g. twins Esau and Jacob, King David who slew his lover's husband, etc.
        You know the scriptures.
        
        No, mercy cannot rob justice, here also is the confirmation from the BofM:
        
        Alma 42: 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
        
        I will ask Jeff if he has come across this kind of prejudice in the BofM.
        
        The atonement is sacred to Mormons as well.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        There she goes again Jeff,,,, God, if he exists???? What most if not all mormons want to be,,,, Christians, which she, they aren't..
      - Esther
        
        Just to make you talk Pastor Dwayne. I think it is the Wild West U. S. of A.!!!
        I just don't want to be like you and Myrtle or whatever her name is. Anything but that!
        
        p,s, Pastor: Jeff is an atheist.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        E. I will say it again, when you say ,if God exists, if Satan exists, you are not born again, when you are born again according to the Bible , not the b.o.m., you KNOW God exists, there is no if to it
        ,,,, Jeff,, really I had no idea Jeff is an atheist, WOW
      - Esther
        
        Jeff is open about his atheism, but he said he is not a member of a group of Atheists, and seeks proof of then existence of God. Do you have any?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        When you have an , actual, literal, bonefied, Born Again , (from above) experience,and Jesus through the Holy Ghost dwells in your inner being, YOU know , That YOU know, that you know, THAT YOU KNOW,,, there is a GOD
      - Esther
        
        Jeff is open about his beliefs.
  - simon says
    
    Jeff if you cared to look at what's written in Exodus 33:19 you will understand the Lord will be gracious unto whom He chooses to be gracious to , and He will show mercy unto whom He chooses to show mercy to . Remember God knows the beginning from the end, and the end from the beginning . Who are we to tell God whom to save and whom not to save !! can the clay tell the potter into what shape it wants to be moulded into ?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      We created the idea of god. We can certainly dictate what he believes.
    - Esther
      
      "
      the Lord will be gracious unto whom He chooses to be gracious to" points to the slippery slope of Pope Calvin of the Protestants.
      - simon says
        
        Esther…what exactly is it that you are implying ? please be more specific. remember no Pope has ever been a Christian and yes they are all fallible too. As for the old Protestants…well , they were also full of Biblical misconceptions which exacerbated their problems and led to their bitter persecutions by the established church during the Dark Ages.
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      Better yet read Rom. 11:32, "For God has included all men in disobedience, that He might have mercy on EVERY man".
  - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
    
    Jeff:
    
    Praying a prayer, whether the Lord's Prayer or any prayer, does not guarantee that one will survive a disaster. That is not the point, nor is that how God operates.
    
    God commands us to pray, but since we cannot know the details of what His will is for our lives, we cannot presume to know how or when God will answer those prayers. We certainly cannot demand that God answer our prayers in a certain way, but there is nothing wrong with praying for the outcome that we desire. If we are trapped in a dangerous situation we would almost certainly be praying that God would deliver us from the danger, but we cannot demand such an outcome.
    
    You will notice in the Lord's Prayer it says "thy will be done" meaning that the believer is ready to accept God's will no matter the outcome. I do not know all that happened with the individual whom this article describes, but he does seem to understand what it means to be a born-again believer:
    
    (From the article): "…I know, with a certainty that my words cannot possibly convey, I know what will happen to me when I die. I will rise from this shell, like a child fresh and clean from a bath, and I will be wrapped in the warmth of His love and His forgiveness and His peace.”
    
    That, my friend, is security. The believers know that whether they live, or whether they die, they are the Lord's. There is no disaster, calamity, disease, accident, crime, or other misfortune that can separate us from the Love of God, nor that can snatch from us the reality of eternal life. My prayer for you Jeff is that the Lord would open your eyes to the truth and that He would freely give you, by His grace, a new freedom in Christ with the sure hope for a better life beyond this one.
    - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
      
      However, that is what Myrtle stated. She said that praying the Lords prayer is what saved him. There were many who prayed to their god to save them during this tragedy. Yet, almost all were killed. You want to pretend that your god can do anything. But the reality is that he can do nothing because he does not exist.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        I wasn't specifically addressing Myrtle's statement. but rather pointing out a common misconception. Praying the Lord's Prayer or any other prayer is not some kind of guarantee that God will do what we want. As I said in my reply, that is not how God operates. God is sovereign, and while He does indeed command us to pray, we do not know if His will for us is for Him to answer a prayer in the way in which we desire. Prayer is not like some magical formula whereby if we pray 'A' God will do 'B', or if we pray 'C' God will do 'D'.
        
        Yes, there undoubtedly were many who prayed to be saved from the horrible disaster of 9/11, yet were not. But that hardly proves anything about the existence of God. God has never promised He would answer all our prayers in the way or at the time in which we desire, so it is illogical to associate prayers that were not answered in the affirmative with God's power to do as He pleases. In fact, if 100% of prayers were answered exactly in the manner as those who prayed them desired, it would almost be proof that God was not sovereign, but rather subject to the demands and whims of man.
        
        The believer is to acknowledge that he or she able to humble himself/herself before God and be subject to His sovereign will, whether it includes Him answering our prayers in the affirmative (which often happens) or whether it doesn't. If the person in the article received comfort and meaning from the Lord's Prayer, then we can at least say that it benefited him in keeping his wits about him during the crisis, and it could also be that God was directly intervening as well.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Actually, according to the bible, that is exactly how god is supposed to operate.
        
        Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells us just how easy prayer can be:
        "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
        Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
        
        According to the bible, everyone who prays should get what they pray for.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Glad to see that you are so familiar with your Bible. If those were the only verses we had, I would have to agree that it appears that God will grant whatever we ask. However, you are forgetting some other important verses:
        
        "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
        
        James 4:3
        
        "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:"
        
        I John 5:14
        
        "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
        
        James 1:5
        
        "9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
        10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
        
        Matthew 6:9-10
        
        "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
        
        Matthew 26:39
        
        "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
        
        Romans 8:26
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Which just once again shows that the bible is inconsistent.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        No, it shows that you have to compare Scripture with Scripture before you arrive at a conclusion.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I already showed scripture. You attempted to show different scripture. But they are not equitable.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Taken together, they give us a clearer picture of how prayer works. They complement each other.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, your scripture does not compliment the verses I provided. They contrasted them.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        No, when we put the two together, we find that if we ask anything in Christ's name, He will do it, provided it is within the Father's will.
      - PaulN
        
        Really? You have spoken to someone who prayed and didn't live? Remarkable, or ignorant, I cannot tell which. Your desparation in speaking belies your hatred! I KNOW my God exists because he has revealed His presence in my life. You cannot see it because you are too full of hate. You reject Him so He rejects you! Do you think a God cannot hide Himself from a mere human as easily as he can reveal Himself? Foolish is a man who kicks the sand to spite the beach!
  - lil` blackbird
    
    Our GOD has been kicked out of our personal lives, our schools, our government and is generally mocked by society. Why should he hang around? The DNC at the Democratic convention actually booed HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!
    - http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.dixon.509 Jeffrey Dixon
      
      How exactly does an omnipresent god get kicked out of anything?
      - Esther
        
        If you mutter to him he will leave on his own.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        lol
  - A.
    
    Jeff,
    Your posts are grossly uninformed. You may be able to quote some selected scriptures, but you are definitley not a scholar of religion, Christian or otherwise. Neither are you a scientist or a mathemstidian. I have poreviously asked you to provide your credentials, yet you consistently refuse to do sol Therefore, you are unbelievable. Get some education before you continue with your irrelevant posts.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      I have posted my background many times before. My education consists of a bachelors and masters in business. That has allowed me to have a profession. My avocation is science and I have been studying it my entire life. You already showed just how little you understand science with your absurd views on theories and laws. So, as I said before, you should demand a refund from your schools for wasting your money on your education.
    - Esther
      
      It's true A. Jeff has provided his credentials several times since May 30 of this year. Also he is a formidable opponent in the subjects you claim he is not. In case you don't know how, you can click someone's name and then click follow button on the Disqus.com/dashboard site and you can check his entire conversations of these topics altogether in one place.
  - fliteking
    
    Jeff, you should "Tune In", not "Drop Out" .
    - Esther
      
      Reply to Jeff's statement, fliteking. BTW, what is your religious sect?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      I prefer understanding it.
Scarface13

" Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kngdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven; Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for Thine is the kngdom and the power and the glory forever amen.
- dotsdot
  
  AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
- Evermyrtle
  
  IF we can remember that at all times in every situation, we will live according to HIS will, BUT when stressful moments arrive it is so easy to lose track of these words of JESUS CHRIST. WE MUST STAND STRONG FOR HIM through all of our trials and temptations.
Wordman

Yes, Jeff, God allowed the actions of evil men to result in the deaths of 3,000 other people including the children on the plane. It's a good thing that this life is not our only hope, huh?
- Jeff Dixon
  
  This life is all we know exists. Therefore, it is important that we make the most of it.
  - rsb
    
    If you are so certain of that, why is it you come to what is clearly a Christian site to write your protests? You must realize that you aren't going to change anyone's mind.
    
    Possibly, you are hoping someone might change your mind?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Because Christians need some reality interjected into their lives.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff, why don't you ever address the fact that the Mormon God of the BofM is absolutely good, while the pseudo-Christian God of the Holy Bible has some characteristics of Satan. I would like to hear your thoughts on that subject if indeed you see that. You have mentioned in the past that I have avoided confrontation when it comes to certain issues between my faith and the faith of others. Yet, the premise where we can possibly begin, cannot be clearly defined. I simply cannot converse with people who believe God has such characteristics. Can't you see that! They claim that the Father of the Mormons is different.and they are certainly right. What have you found in your studies to be the case?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is no difference in how the god of the bible or the god of the book of Mormon are presented. There are many examples in the BoM which show god being cruel.
        
        2 Nephi
        
        6:15 And they that believe not in him
        shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by
        bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that
        the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.
        
        6:18 And I will feed them
        that oppress thee, with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their
        own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy
        Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
      - Esther
        
        Thanks for ruining my day, Jeff, I always skip those passages, why not? That needs to be edited also, I guess it got past Joseph… but if you will read about the plan of salvation you will see all is well, after all. The BofM is only 1/4 of the quad
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You asked me to address it.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you very much. Now that I have more time to study scriptures, I will seek less to skip over the parts I don't like. One of my favorite characters is Benjamin in the BofM. He is like a philosopher-king.
      - Vladimir
        
        If God were cruel, He wouldn't warn us and so we could choose to avoid unpleasantness.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Cruelty , vs Judgement, God always give people, nations time to repent, when they don't repent in that time frame, judgement, not cruelty comes, as in the world trade center, ( Financial Babylon), God didn't allow it ( I know this will be hard for some to understand) It was His Judgement coming to America.
  - seektruth
    
    Do you have some scientific PROOF of this?
- seektruth
  
  Right on, Wordman. In Jeff's world, he becomes blasphemous because he thinks he would know better than how God should be involved in the affairs of men. He uses some kind of absolute standard of how God should act, yet has no foundation for where this standard comes from. For in Jeff's belief, there is no God. And yet he can't help himself by trying to apply that standard. He thinks believers are hypocritical, yet doesn't see the irrationality of his own stance.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    Of course believers are hypocritical. You claim to know the absurd.
    - seektruth
      
      And you claim to know all of reality, which is even more absurd.
cmjay

The CROSS that was found at the site is there for a REASON – GOD wants us to know HE has not abandoned the PATRIOTS who were buried there.