Supercomputer Recreates Universe History

Scientists would love to be able to rewind the universe and watch what happened from the start. Since that's not possible, researchers must create their own mini-universes inside computers and unleash the laws of physics on them, to study their evolution.

Now researchers are planning the most detailed, largest-scale simulation of this kind to date. One of the main mysteries they hope to solve with it is the origin of the dark energy that's causing the universe to accelerate in its expansion.

The new simulation is a project led by physicists Salman Habib and Katrin Heitmann of Illinois' Argonne National Laboratory, and will run on the lab's Mira supercomputer, the third-fastest computer in the world, starting in the next month or two. The program will use hundreds of millions of "particles" — elements in the simulation that stand in for small bits of matter. The computer will let time run, and watch as the particles move through space in response to the forces acting on them.

Continue reading at www.space.com

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garry williamson

It would be interesting to see what would happen if they programed the biblical creation and see what the computer came up with.
- http://profile.yahoo.com/HFMELPJ2QU37W53K2TKL4HJQGM Ted
  
  What would be really funny if they did that and they looked into the computer screen and saw God's face grinning back at them. (God won't do that though…but it would be funny…).
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    It would be funny if something mythical was grinning at us. But it will never occur since it cannot occur.
- Chris
  
  What would be really funny is seeing you religious lot being able to do anything scientific. Maybe you could even find a fossil to support your creation nonsense.
Wordman

Ah, but computers do what they are programmed to do with only the data that is supplied. Feed input and programs that contain biases and the results (which must be interpreted, by the way), will be skewed accordingly. That's not to say that such things are not useful. We just have to understand their limitations.
- http://profile.yahoo.com/HFMELPJ2QU37W53K2TKL4HJQGM Ted
  
  You just said what I was gonna' say. Thanks.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004047180339 John Adams

Computers cannot simulate God. God created ALL things in six, 24-hour days 6000 years ago. Period. End of story.
- http://profile.yahoo.com/HFMELPJ2QU37W53K2TKL4HJQGM Ted
  
  Even if they could, God would do something unexpected just to screw them up.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    No, Myths do not do anything. People merely write about them.
- Chris
  
  What a closed mindset. Looking up at the stars will tell you that is complete BS. If you stopped reading your bible long enough you might learn some science to be able to calculate that. Or you could do a middle school science experiment and figure erosion rates.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  That is hardly the end of the story. It is the fiction of men. The end of the story will never be known.
  - millergroup2
    
    The evolution story is certainly the "fiction of men". Aha, but the end of the story is getting closer and closer.
    
    Every Knee Shall Bow
    
    Philippians 2:10-11
    
    So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and
    on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ
    is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    
    Romans 14:11
    
    For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
    
    Isaiah 45:23
    
    By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
    a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue
    shall swear allegiance.’
    
    Hebrews 13:8
    
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
    
    Philippians 2:10
    
    So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    
    Philippians 2:9-11
    
    Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name
    that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should
    bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
    confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    
    Revelation 1:18
    
    And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
    
    John 1:1
    
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    
    Colossians 1:20
    
    And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on
    earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
    
    Ephesians 1:11
    
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined
    according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the
    counsel of his will,
    
    1 Corinthians 15:22
    
    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    
    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things
    and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all
    things and through whom we exist.
    
    Acts 2:1-47
    
    When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one
    place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing
    wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And
    divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of
    them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak
    in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were
    dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
    …
- millergroup2
  
  John, good for you! What man cannot conceive in his mind, he will try to make sense of it in elementary terms. Man has always tried to bring God down to his level. I have no problem with creation, and accept it wholeheartedly. Unfortunately man will always attempt to undermine God. As time goes on, even the most respected, scrutinizing scientist are taking a look at debunking the evolution theory. To look at it simply, "Infinite Regression" squashes the scientific research of evolution. No matter how you look at it, something had to create something at the beginning. The bible holds an account of creation. As archeologist dig deeper, they are finding more and more artifacts to substantiate the biblical creation account. Not one thing has ever been proven to be wrong with the Word of God. Not one. I pray that God will reveal all of his mystery to any scientist that ask of Him.
petroskhan

I think the most interesting and relevant part of the whole article is:

"It's basically guesswork; it could be like this, or it could be like that," Habib said.

What more do we need to read?
- http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
  
  Garbage in, garbage out.
  - Chris
    
    Some of us know not to put garbage in and get useful and profitable results out. Again – you spend way too much time reading that worthless book – it doesn't even tell you how to program a computer.
    - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
      
      Maybe not, but it tells us how to program our mind so that what comes out is not garbage. Touche'.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Hardly touche'. More like more garbage in.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Then I suggest you compare the lifestyles of those who read and follow what the Bible says, vs. those who never read it and make up their own rules, and see which group has a higher moral standard. Oops, I forgot, atheists don't believe in an absolute standard of morality, so it would be impossible for you to tell the difference.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        That would be a compelling argument if it actually worked in your favor. However, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the invasion of the America's and the the witch burnings show that your morality is non-existent. Or at least it is subjective to concepts that Christians consider moral at certain times in their life's. But it hardly shows any real morality. Besides the bible shows that morality changes over time, regardless of the absurdity of the concept that gods laws never change.
      - petroskhan
        
        He did say that you should compare the lifestyles of "those who read and follow what the Bible says"…not those who attempt to use it as an excuse for un-Christian actions.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, he did say that. But the actions I mentioned are from Christians.
      - petroskhan
        
        Yet again, Jeff, we must distinguish between those who CLAIM to be Christians, and those who ARE Christians.
        
        You are sincerely attempting state that "…the Crusades, the Inquisition, the invasion of the America's…" are the actions of Christians, "those who read and follow what the Bible says"?
        
        Once more you are attempting to bash the Bible by pointing out the criminal and immoral actions of the deluded and misguided, who claim that their self-serving actions are in the name of God. If such is your stance on the issue, it's simple, then. Back that up with relevant, applicable citations from the Bible.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the
        LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight!
        The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering
        chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The
        chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as
        lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they
        stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too
        late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to
        collapse! Nineveh's exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its
        capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in
        sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping
        away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot
        the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures –
        its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its
        wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their
        faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10
        NLT)
        
        "I have wiped out many
        nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now
        deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell
        what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely
        they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no;
        however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till
        dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming
        soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision
        to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and
        fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On
        that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to
        worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of
        Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Except that none of those things had anything to do with Christians. Those are all straw men that atheists set up to somehow 'prove' that Christians are immoral. Which is laughable anyway since atheists cannot clearly define what is 'moral' because their standard keeps changing. They claim that what is 'moral' depends on what 'society' determines is moral, which is absurd and meaningless. How can you claim to know that witch burnings were immoral? What if 'society' at that time said it was acceptable?
        
        The Bible most certainly does not show that morality changes over time. Quite the contrary. That is a concept that can be attributed to those who do not believe in moral absolutes, such as atheists. Once the Bible was completed, it is an unchanging, unchangeable codification of God's Law in its entirety.
        
        In fact, it is illogical to call oneself an atheist because to do so requires that one believe in a universal negative, namely, that God does not exist anywhere. It is not only unprovable, but also intellectually bankrupt, because it states an absolute position when atheists claim there are no absolutes. The only defensible position for skeptics would be the agnostic position, namely that they are not sure whether there is a God or not. And even that lends itself to many unanswered questions about the origin of life and the universe.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course it was done by Christians. Simply because you want to distance yourself from their actions does not mean they did not believe Jesus was their lord and savior. They did these things because the bible tells them to kill unbelievers and those who fall away from the faith.
      - cyoder
        
        "They did these things because the bible tells them to kill unbelievers and those who fall away from the faith" Not in any Bible I've read. It says that if any fall away, they should be restored in love.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Once again, you are avoiding the real issues and instead choose to keep bringing out the tired straw man arguments of attributing certain actions to Christians when Christians did not perform the activities you named, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. In most cases it was Roman Catholics who were involved, not Christians. And for the umpteenth time, no, Roman Catholics are not Christians.
        
        What authority do you have to say that the Crusades or the Inquisition were wrong? You have no moral authority that you can stand on when it comes to atheism, because you do not believe in absolutes. Your argument falls apart because you are claiming that the Crusades were wrong, yet you cannot cite a basis for claiming it was wrong.
        
        Atheism is the only logical belief system? You've got to be kidding me. No moral absolutes, no valid explanation of origins, no valid explanation for the existence of the universe, no explanation for the incredible complexity of life. I'd hardly call that logical.
        
        Your other straw man that "The Christian viewpoint requires that one pretend that all the scientific knowledge we have acquired is wrong" is pure malarkey. You only make that kind of a statement because pseudo-scientific claims such as evolution and billions of years for the age of the universe, which are speculations about the unobservable, untestable past are nowadays passed off as 'science'. There is absolutely NO scientific knowledge that deals with processes in the observable testable present (operational science) with which the Bible or Christianity disagrees. None.
        
        The speed of light being a constant is NOT a Law. Therefore, you have no basis for claiming that the speed of light must be constant because of another theory (Relativity). We have no way of knowing whether the speed of light has always been a constant, and there is some evidence that it may not have always been constant.
        
        The Bible does not "change" over time. While it was being written, there were portions that only applied to the individuals living at that point in history, but once the whole Bible was completed, there is no longer any possibility or need for change. The US Constitution, for example, is also a legal document, yet it has changed over time. Amendments have been added so that what we now have is somewhat different than when it was originally written. We have a more complete version. The only difference is that additional changes in the Constitution could occur in the future, but not in the Bible.
        
        The Bible does not command to "murder" in his name. You are setting up another straw man by substituting deaths in time of war with murder. They are not the same. Besides, who are you to say that murder is wrong anyway? You have no absolute standard of morality, so if 'society' decided at some point that it was acceptable, you would be forced to agree.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        For the umpteenth time, yes, Roman Catholics are Christians. You do not get to decide who is a Christian. I know you disagree with them. They disagree with you. However, a Christian is one who believes that Jesus is god and their savior. The Catholics believe that. You believe that. You are both Christians.
        
        I am a human being which gives me every right to discuss the actions of other humans. There are certain acts which are considered unacceptable to other people. Slaughtering them is one of those acts. Now what is extremely humorous is that you just got done arguing that the Crusades and the Inquisition were done by Catholics and not Christians. Yet you are also saying they are acceptable to you. You make a fine Christian, Key.
        
        Atheism does have an explanation of origins, and Humanism explains why we should be good to each other. The concept of moral absolutes is silly and besides, the bible does not offer moral absolutes.
        
        There is NO evidence that the speed of light has ever been different. You are entitled to your own opinion, but NOT your own facts. The speed of light is considered to be a physical constant.
        
        Of course the bible has changed over time. I expect you to lie about your position, Key, but this is simply asinine.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        The Bible gets to decide who is a Christian, not you nor I. And the doctrines that the RCC holds are clearly in violation of the Bible. For example, they claim that Mary is a co-redemptrix, flatly contrary to the Bible's declaration that Christ alone is the redeemer.
        
        I did not say the Crusades and Inquisition were acceptable to me. You misunderstand. I said that if 'society' agreed that they were, you would be forced to agree because you have no absolute standard of morality. Therefore, you have no authority to claim that they were wrong, because then you are making a moral judgement without reference to an absolute standard.
        
        You say (correctly) that slaughtering other humans is unacceptable, and I totally agree, but what do you base that moral judgement upon? I base my judgement upon the absolute standard of the Bible. You base your standard on a constantly-shifting appeal to public opinion, so it could be wrong now and acceptable later.
        
        Atheism may have an explanation of origins, but I said a "valid" explanation of origins. The atheist version is so full of holes I could drive a Mack truck through it.
        
        Why is the concept of moral absolutes "silly"? Are you absolutely sure?
        
        Again, the speed of light as a constant is NOT a Scientific Law, so we cannot say for certain whether it has always been constant. That is a fact, not an opinion. It may be considered a constant now, but that tells us nothing about its behavior in the unobservable, untestable past.
        
        I did not say the Bible has not changed over time. I clearly noted that there were portions that applied only to the people at a certain time in history before the Bible was completed, and which now have been superseded by additional revelation. But now that the Bible is completed, there are no further changes, and God's Word stands forever.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The bible does not state who is a Christian. There are many conflicting passages on how to get to heaven,
        
        It is not a matter of what one group of people decides what is acceptable human behavior. These standards were encoded into our species hundreds of thousands of years ago. Which is why you see the same standards in most primate species.
        
        I base my comment on slaughtering humans on what benefits humanity. You base it on verses from bronze age humans. And very few from your group actually follows these verses. However, most of mankind agree that slaughtering people harms the group.
        
        The bible has changed so many times over the years, it is laughably you try to claim it is unchanging. But keep trying.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        Ah, but the Bible does tell us who is and is not a Christian:
        
        "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
        He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
        But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
        
        I John 2:3-5
        
        "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
        
        I John 2:22
        
        " If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
        
        I John 4:20
        
        "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."
        
        I John 5:10
        
        "12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
        13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
        14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
        
        I Corinthians 2
        
        "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
        
        John 13:35
        
        "15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
        16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
        17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
        18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
        19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
        20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
        21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
        
        Matthew 7
        
        So you say that "These standards were encoded into our species hundreds of thousands of years ago." You are absolutely correct (except for the timing). God placed a conscience within us so that we instinctively know that it is wrong to do certain things, but our consciences can become so seared by wickedness that we no longer obey what our it is telling us. But that is something that is apart from the Law. It is only an indirect implication of wrong or right. If we did not have an absolute moral law, we would not know for sure what is wrong or right, nor could we be convicted for any breech of it.
        
        How do you know that slaughtering humans is never beneficial? I'm certainly not suggesting it is, but what if a society decided that the population was growing too large, for instance, and selected certain individuals to be 'eliminated'? With your changing standard based on man's reasoning, you would be forced to agree that it was OK.
        
        The bottom line is, there must be absolutes. When you claim that there are none, you are making an absolute judgement yourself. It may sound like double talk, but if you think through the implications of how we can know truth, you will discover that it is not. Every philosophy or religions makes judgments of what is right or wrong. The only question then is, what is that standard they are using? If you declare (absolutely) that there are no absolutes, you are hoist by your own petard.
        
        I agree with you that some portions of the Bible were rescinded or modified by later revelation, but when the entire Bible was completed, it is now a finished product, never to be changed again. That gives us, who live in the NT era, a great advantage over the OT believers, because we have access to the complete revelation of what God wanted us to know.
      - millergroup2
        
        Jeff, what are these "conflicting passages" you speak of? Please list them. I would love to debate this with you. As far as I know, there is only one way to get to heaven.
        
        "Hear O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
        ( Mark 12:29)
        
        "I and the Father are one."
        ( John 10:30)
        
        "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
        except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also."
        ( John 14:6-7)
        
        But Jesus answered them, 'My Father is working still, and I am still
        working.' This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because
        he not only broke the sabbath, but also called God his own Father,
        making himself equal with God.
        ( John 5:16-18)
        
        "Whoever hates me hates my Father also."
        ( John 15:23)
        
        "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but
        if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that
        you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the
        Father."
        ( John 10:37-38)
        
        "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The
        words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the
        Father who dwells in me does his works."
        ( John 14:10)
        
        "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what
        he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does
        likewise. The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is
        doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will
        be astonished."
        ( John 5:19-20)
        
        "Call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father – the one in
        heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one
        instructor, the Messiah."
        ( Matthew 23:9)
        
        "The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that
        all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does
        not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
        ( John 5:22-23)
        
        "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me."
        ( John 8:42)
        
        "All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows
        who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son
        and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
        ( Luke 10:22)
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Matthew 16:27
        For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.Matthew 19:17
        If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.Matthew 25:41-46
        Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
        John 5:29
        And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
        James 2:14
        What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?James 2:17
        Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.James 2:21-25
        Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.1 Peter 1:17
        The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.Revelation 2:23
        I will give unto every one of you according to your works.Revelation 20:12-13
        And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Revelation 22:14
        Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.1
        
        But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Timothy 2:15
      - millergroup2
        
        I can only assume that you see "conflicts" here. So that I do not answer assuming………….Please be a little more descriptive of your understanding of supposed conflicts. I will be happy to respond.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Every one of these verses state one can go to heaven and they do not state that only by believing in Jesus is how one does it.
      - millergroup2
        
        One at a time here Jeff. I have been accused on this forum for being long winded. And I do use reference material, where I can find it.
        
        Matthew 16:27 – Rewards According To Their Works
        
        Q: In Matthew 16:27, Jesus claims that the Son of
        Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he
        shall reward every man according to his works. However, other passages
        say that judgment will be delivered according to standards other than
        works: some verses say that salvation is a result of belief and
        confession, or belief and baptism, or a free gift, not a result of
        works. Isnt this a contradiction?
        
        A: First, I want you to be
        aware that some interpreters — mainly Pre-Millennialists whose ideas
        closely conform to the theories promoted by Clarence Larkin — resolve
        this question by claiming that there are going to be two Judgment Days:
        one when Christ returns and begins His earthly millennial reign ~ which
        will be a day of the Sheep-and-Goats Judgment, when rewards for good
        works are awarded and punishments for bad works are also delivered ~ and
        one at the end of the Millennium, which will be the Final Judgment at
        the Great White Throne, when Gods born-again people are saved by grace
        and the unsaved enter into hell. (For some background about Clarence
        Larkin and his theories and charts which separate the scene of The
        Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne scene, see http://www.biblebelievers.com/la…iding.html .)
        
        But
        my eschatology is somewhat less complicated, and I expect only one
        Judgment Day. Works will be judged, but so will motivations, states of
        mind, and circumstances. And, most importantly, nature will also be
        judged. The judgment of a mans works tends to serve as a judgment of
        his nature, since through his works, his nature is expressed. When all
        these things are considered together, various components such as faith,
        repentance, confession, baptism, faithfulness expressed through works
        (mentioned here in Mt. 16:27) — serve as exhibits A-E of spiritual
        regeneration, and this is ultimately the standard on the basis of which a
        favorable judgment is to be delivered. The measurement of an
        individual's works is a major thermostat of his nature.
        
        Saving Faith Has Works
        If we are in
        Christ, then such will be evidenced by good works. Good works are the
        evidence of our justification and right relationship with God. In 1
        Corinthians 15:10, Paul spoke of his abundant work for the Lord; he
        said, "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me
        did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I,
        but the grace of God with me." Paul did not do the many good works that
        he did in an effort to gain salvation; rather it was the grace of God
        and salvation itself that led Paul to do what he did.
        
        We are indeed to do good works, but it is God
        (through His Holy Spirit) who enables us to do these good works.
        Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ
        Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk
        in them." Acts 26:20 speaks of "performing deeds appropriate to
        repentance." In Matthew 3:8, John the Baptism similarly said to the
        Pharisees and Sadducees, "Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with
        repentance." Galations 5:6 speaks of "faith working through love."
        
        Paul said in Romans 4 that Abraham was not saved by
        works of the Law. But Jesus said in John 8:39, "If you are Abraham's
        children, do the deeds of Abraham." If indeed they were his sons, then
        they would produce the natural fruits of sonship. Those who are sons of
        God will produce fruits of evidence showing that they do indeed belong
        to Him. Thus, in James 2:14ff, it is shown that Abraham's faith was
        evidenced by his works. Furthermore, without such works, he would not be
        justified. A faith that does not have such works is not a true saving
        faith (v14). As Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love me, [you will]
        keep my commandments."
        
        Surely the Bible shows that genuine faith in Jesus
        Christ will exhibit itself in genuine acts of good deeds, godliness, and
        righteous living.
        
        Judged by Our Works
        Since
        genuine saving faith produces genuine good works, we are therefore
        justified, not only by faith, but by our works. And thus, in a sense, we
        are judged by our deeds. Numerous passages of Scripture refer to this
        (in the apparent context of salvation in general)…
        
        Romans 14:12 "So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God."
        
        Matthew 25:31-46 Those who have fed, clothed, etc.
        will "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
        world." Those who failed to do so "will go away into eternal punishment,
        but the righteous into eternal life."
        
        John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is
        coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and
        shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of
        life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
        
        Romans 2:6-7 "[God] will render to every man
        according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek
        for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."
        
        2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the
        judgment seat of Christ, that each one of us may be recompensed for his
        deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
        Later Paul referred to false apostles, "whose end shall be according to
        their deeds" (11:15).
        
        2 Timothy 4:14 Paul said, "Alexander the coppersmith
        did me much harm; the Lord will repay (KJV: reward) him according to his
        deeds."
        
        1 Peter 1:17 "[God] impartially judges according to each man's work."
        
        Revelation 20:11-15 "…And they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."
        
        Our Works Do Not Merit Salvation
        There is
        obviously a direct correlation between a person's true character
        (whether in Christ or not) and his deeds. Thus to judge one according to
        his deeds is really to judge if he is truly in Christ! Doing such
        works, however, does not enable us to stand before God deserving of
        salvation and meriting eternal life. Being judged/justified by works
        does not mean that we will merit or deserve our eternal reward
        based on our own good deeds. Such works are merely indicative of our
        faithfulness to Him. And if faithful, then we are found to be "in
        Christ" at the Day of Judgment and thus granted eternal life, not on our merit, but on His!
        
        Again, we are not saved by our own efforts at
        sanctification (even though true faith will result in a determined
        effort to become more Christ-like day by day); we are saved (and thus
        shall inherit eternal life) by justification through Jesus Christ. We
        indeed need to say (as Jesus taught), "We are unworthy slaves; we have
        done only that which we ought to have done" (Luke 17:10).
        
        Romans 4:4-5 says, "Now to the one who works, his
        wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who
        does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith
        is reckoned as righteousness."
        
        Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
        
        Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved
        through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as
        a result of works, that no one should boast."
        
        Titus 3:4-5 "But when the kindness of God our Savior
        and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of
        deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy,
        by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
        
        2 Timothy 1:9 "[God] has saved us, and called us with
        a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own
        purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all
        eternity."
        
        Isaiah 64:6 says, "All our righteous deeds are like a
        filthy garment." Despite all our good works, we still stand in need of a
        Savior and cannot be cleansed on our own. Our cleansing is a gift of
        God that we will never deserve by our own meritorious deeds.
        
        A good example of this is that of Naaman in 2 Kings
        5. V1 says, "Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a
        great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the Lord
        had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he
        was a leper." The chapter goes on to tell about the prophet Elisha, the
        man of God. Elisha told Naaman, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times,
        and your flesh shall be restored to you and you shall be clean" (v10).
        At first Naaman wanted to be cleansed on his own terms, but finally, "He
        went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to
        the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of
        a little child, and he was clean" (v14). Notice that Naaman had to obey
        God in order to be cleansed, but he certainly didn't merit his
        cleansing. The cleansing was still a gift of God, just as is our
        spiritual cleansing through Christ.
        
        Various Degrees of Reward?
        Some think
        that being judged by our works means that our works determine the extent
        of our reward in heaven (or that greater works can merit greater
        rewards). It does appear that there may be various degrees of
        punishment. 2 Peter 2:21 speaks of those who at one time had been
        faithful Christians and then turned away: "For it would have been better
        for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known
        it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them." This may
        refer to an actual state of eternal punishment that is of greater
        external severity, or it may simply refer to a greater inner anguish
        (the mental suffering of knowing that punishment could have been avoided
        had one remained faithful). (See also Matthew 11:21-24 and Hebrews
        10:29.)
        
        Another passage regarding degrees of punishment is
        Luke 12:47-48. In the context of being ready for the Day of Judgment,
        Jesus said, "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get
        ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the
        one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will
        receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much
        be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all
        the more."
        
        Numerous passages do speak of our rewards, though it
        is not clear if such refer to various degrees of such or simply
        salvation itself…
        
        Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when men cast
        insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you
        falsely, on account of Me. Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in
        heaven is great…" (See also Luke 6:23.)
        
        Matthew 6:1-4 "Beware of practicing your
        righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no
        reward with your Father who is in heaven… [Let] your alms be in
        secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay (KJV: reward)
        you."
        
        Matthew 6:5-6 "And when you pray, you are not to be
        as the hypocrites… Pray to your Father who is in secret, and your
        Father who sees in secret will repay (KJV: reward) you."
        
        Matthew 6:16-18 "And whenever you fast, do not put on
        a gloomy face as the hypocrites do… and your Father who sees in
        secret will repay (KJV: reward) you."
        
        Matthew 6:19-20 "Do not lay up for yourselves
        treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves
        break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where
        neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or
        steal."
        
        Matthew 10:41-42 "He who receives a prophet in the
        name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a
        righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous
        man's reward. And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of
        these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you
        he shall not lose his reward." (Those who accepted Christ's disciples as
        they would receive Him would be rewarded accordingly; see also Mark
        9:41.)
        
        Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in
        the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense (KJV:
        reward) every man according to his deeds."
        
        Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and
        lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and
        you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful
        and evil men."
        
        Colossians 3:23-24 Regarding slaves/servants, Paul
        said, "Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather
        than for men; knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of
        the inheritance. It is the Lord whom you serve." (See also Ephesians
        6:7-8.)
        
        Hebrews 10:35 Concerning those who had endured
        persecution, the writer said, "Therefore, do not throw away your
        confidence, which has a great reward."
        
        2 John 8 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward."
        
        Revelation 22:12 Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming
        quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man to what he has
        done." But also notice v14: "Blessed are those who wash their robes,
        that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the
        gates into the city."
        
        Some consider 1 Corinthians 3:8ff as possibly
        referring to various degrees of eternal reward; it may be (and perhaps
        more likely and truer to the context) that Paul is simply referring to
        the immediate reward of winning souls for the Lord. Some also think that
        the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27 (and perhaps the parable of
        the talents in Matthew 25:14-30) might be an indication of lesser and
        greater rewards in heaven.
        
        Several passages also speak of receiving a prize or a
        crown. Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 about receiving a prize and
        an imperishable wreath/crown. In 2 Timothy 4:8, he spoke of "the crown
        of righteousness." James spoke of receiving "the crown of life" (James
        1:12). Peter said that elders would receive an "unfading crown of glory"
        (1 Peter 5:4). (See also Revelation 3:11 and 4:10.)
        
        Two other passages suggest some may receive a greater
        reward. In Matthew 20:20ff, the request is made for two sons to sit on
        right and left side of Jesus. Jesus replied, "But to sit on My right and
        on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those whom it has
        been prepared by My Father" (v23). In Luke 22:30, Jesus said to the
        apostles, "You will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
        Some think this means that the apostles will actually co-judge with
        Christ at the Day of Judgment. Others think it refers more to their
        teaching by way of the Holy Spirit that will be the standard of
        judgment. (Consider also Luke 19:11-27 and Matthew 25:14-30.)
        
        Same Reward for All?
        However,
        having considered all these passages, the parable of the householder in
        Matthew 20 may indicate that there is no variation in eternal rewards.
        Jesus told about a landowner who hired workers at various times
        throughout the day, but they all received same reward. It may be,
        however, that the application of this parable is simply that all who
        belong to God will receive eternal life regardless of the extent of
        their works or their time as Christians. If that is the meaning, then
        such would not contradict other apparent teaching that there are various
        degrees of rewards.
        
        Conclusion
        Will some
        receive a greater reward for their greater service in the kingdom? As
        mentioned, Peter mentioned that elders will receive an "unfading crown
        of glory." Surely good and faithful leaders of God's people are
        deserving of great honor and glory in Heaven. James warned that teachers
        "shall incur a stricter judgment (James 3:1). Is it reasonable then to
        conclude that good and faithful teachers of the word shall receive a
        greater reward? The apostle Paul suffered numerous hardships because of
        his dedication to the Lord; will he perhaps be therefore blessed with
        greater honor throughout eternity? What about Abraham, Moses, Joshua,
        Peter, John…? Noah and Enoch walked with God. Noah alone was found
        righteous out of millions of people; Enoch was taken so that he did not
        see death. Elijah, that great prophet of God, was also taken up to be
        with God. Is it then perhaps reasonable to consider that some will
        receive a greater reward for greater works?
        
        Whether some receive greater rewards than others, it
        is evident from Scripture that salvation itself is a gift of God that no
        one can deserve by their own merits. Despite all our good works,
        despite all our accomplishments at sanctification, we all still stand in
        need of a Savior. We will never deserve eternal life because of what we
        have done. Thank God for what He has done.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Long winded? I have no idea why you have been accused of this in the past. However, the issue is not whether the bible says that a belief in Jesus is required to go to heaven. It does say that. It also says it is the only way in places. But there are verses which also say you can get to heaven in other ways.
      - millergroup2
        
        You mean after the long dissertation, that you are still saying that there are other ways to heaven, beside the one and only way….through Jesus? You are not reading what I have posted. Too long I suppose. Are you saying that there is a contradiction to this verse:
        
        I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. John 14:6?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course I am saying there is a contradiction to the verse. That is the whole point. While that verse is specific, there are other verses which also state one can go to heaven that do not require going through Jesus. That is what makes them a contradiction.
      - millergroup2
        
        THE IDEA that there are many ways to get to Heaven is partly based on
        the assumption that there are various ways to gain its entrance. Some of
        the more common ways being baptism, good deeds, honest living, giving to
        charity, church attendance, and, if nothing else, by making a sincere effort.
        
        To most, the way to Heaven is broad, with many paths leading there. However, one
        has to wonder: if Heaven is so relatively accessible, then why did Jesus Christ die
        on the cross?
        Why did the only begotten Son of God come to earth, take on flesh, and allow
        Himself to get spat upon, punched, mocked, kicked, humiliated, whipped, and then
        literally nailed to a cross in the hot Judean sun to die a bloody death? The Apostle
        Paul states it best when he says:
        
        "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come
        by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN." Gal. 2:2
        
        You see, Jesus died for a very important reason. He claimed, "I AM THE WAY,
        the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY
        ME" (John 14:6). His sacrificial death provides the only way to Heaven.
        Jesus said, "I AM THE DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he SHALL BE
        SAVED [that means Heaven!]." John 10:9
        
        As a matter of fact, Jesus made sure that no one assumes there is more than one way
        to Heaven by warning: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by
        THE DOOR [Jesus Christ] into the sheepfold, but climbeth up SOME
        OTHER WAY, the same is a THIEF and a ROBBER." John 10:1
        
        Further more, when His disciples asked, "Lord, are there FEW that be saved?"
        (Luke 13:23). Jesus answered by saying: "Strive to enter in at the strait
        [NARROW] gate: for MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK TO ENTER IN,
        and SHALL NOT BE ABLE. When once the master of the house is risen up,
        and hath SHUT to THE DOOR, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock
        at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
        unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT whence ye are." Luke 13:24-25 (see also Matt.
        7:13-14)
        
        Now, obviously, Jeff you will still find it hard to believe that
        there could only be ONE WAY to get to Heaven.
        
        So let's reason this whole thing out, as we take a quick look at history. . .
        
        Beginning with the fall of man . . .
        Man was created in God's image (Gen. 3:17) for the express purpose of follow
        shipping with his Creator. But man rebelled; not willing to accept his subordinate
        role in the relationship. His rebellion plunged mankind into sin. The Bible teaches
        that, "Wherefore, as BY ONE MAN [Adam] SIN ENTERED into the world,
        and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that ALL HAVE
        SINNED." Rom. 5:12
        
        When man fell, his immediate reaction to his new-found sin nature was to
        "coverup" his sin before God: "The eyes of them both were opened, and they
        knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made
        themselves aprons." Gen. 3:7
        God, however, seeing their unsatisfactory efforts showed them what would
        actually be required to "cover up sin": "Unto Adam also and to his wife did
        THE LORD GOD MAKE COATS OF SKINS, and clothed [covered] them."
        Gen. 3:21
        
        God was setting a precedence. These "COATS OF SKINS" came off the backs
        of living animals. Removing them cost those animals their lives and in killing
        them, God established this fact: "For the wages of sin is DEATH…" (Rom.
        6:23). Death and shed blood is the only "coverage" for sin that God will
        approve; it's the only payment He will accept. The Bible clearly teaches that,
        "THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE." Ezek. 18:20
        
        Perhaps you've wondered why there has to be death in the world. Don't blame God.
        Death was not part of His original plan. Death came as a result of man's rebellious
        sin: "DEATH passed upon all men, for that ALL HAVE SINNED." (Rom. 5:12)
        "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, when it is
        finished, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH" (James 1:15). "The sting of DEATH is
        SIN" (1 Cor. 15:56). You can't separate death from sin, nor can you separate the
        payment for sin from death. Death is the only payment for sin God will accept.
        
        God's holiness DEMANDS payment for sin. However, God not desiring the
        absolute death of mankind is willing to accept a substitute on his behalf. That's
        why He told His chosen people, the Jews, that He was willing to accept, "For his
        sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, A LAMB or a kid of the
        goats, for A SIN OFFERING." Lev. 5:6
        So throughout Jewish history, the Jews sacrificed lambs and bullocks as
        instructed by God. He wanted to continuously remind them, as a people, that:
        
        "…without SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION [forgiveness of
        sins]" (Heb. 9:22). However, these sacrifices could only "roll back" sin, postponing
        God's wrath and eternal judgment. Mankind needed a permanent solution, one that
        would forever reconcile him back to his Creator.
        And one day HE ARRIVED! When John the Baptist saw Christ approaching
        him, he said something that should have made something click within the mind
        of every Jew present that day. John announced: "BEHOLD THE LAMB OF
        GOD, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." John 1:29
        
        Jesus is God's sacrificial lamb, the permanent solution to man's sin problem. The
        Bible says of Christ: "But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE
        FOR SINS FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God." Heb. 10:12
        
        "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
        CHRIST DIED FOR US. Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS
        BLOOD, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM." Rom. 5:8-9
        
        You're probably wondering by now what all this talk about death
        has to do with there being only one way to Heaven?
        
        IT'S SIMPLE! The only payment for sin that God will accept is the shed blood of
        Jesus Christ. However, what most people are trusting in to pay for their sin and get
        them to Heaven DOES NOT INVOLVE DEATH! For example, during baptism no
        one dies. During confirmation or communion no one dies. During any good deed
        you and I perform NO ONE DIES; NO BLOOD IS EVER SHED!
        
        Do you see now why Christ is the only way to Heaven? "For the wages of sin is
        death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE [HEAVEN]
        THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD" (Rom. 6:23).
        Jesus Christ, "washed us from our sins IN HIS OWN BLOOD." Rev. 1:5
        
        If we fully place our TRUST IN HIS DEATH, AND SHED BLOOD, our sins will
        be payed for and we'll be allowed in Heaven. The Bible says, "That if thou shaft
        confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. REPENT], and shalt believe in
        thine heart [i.e. TRUST] that God hath raised him FROM THE DEAD,
        THOU SHALT BE SAVED." Rom. 10:9
        
        IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
        you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
        YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
        
        BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
        from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
        "…your iniquities [sins] have separated
        between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
        In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
        all have sinned, and come short
        of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.
        
        SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
        NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
        Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
        faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
        the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
        man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
        deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
        all examples of good works that cannot save you,
        because: "Not by works of
        righteousness which we have done, but
        according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
        us," Titus 3:5.
        
        THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
        Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
        truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
        the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
        WHY: "…while we were yet sinners, Christ
        died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)
        
        THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
        mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
        and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
        Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
        with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
        shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
        hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
        saved." Romans 10:9
      - millergroup2
        
        Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23).
        No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its
        consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that
        only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God
        become man (John 1:1,14)
        – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so
        that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die.
        Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is
        found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to
        men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
      - millergroup2
        
        "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.Matthew 25:41-46"
        Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6)"
        
        And your answer: In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount,
        these words of Jesus are recorded: “Do not think that I have come to
        abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to
        fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear,
        not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any
        means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).
        
        It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it
        must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the Sabbath-day
        requirement must be operative still, along with perhaps numerous other
        elements of the Mosaic Law. This assumption is grounded in a
        misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ did not
        suggest here that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain
        forever in effect. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from
        the balance of the New Testament (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).
        
        Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It
        translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.”
        The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for
        example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14), and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1).
        The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to
        render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in
        connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to
        invalidate.”
        
        It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17.
        In this context, “abolish” is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ
        came “…not to abolish, but to fulfill.” Jesus did not come to this
        earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was
        not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed
        it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic
        utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience under threat of a “curse” (see Galatians 3:10, 13).
        In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding
        effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.
        
        If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today,
        in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus
        failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did
        accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding
        legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled
        by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it
        is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling
        system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative
        of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all
        was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it
        had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus
        fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the
        sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law.
        Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death
        means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of
        the law.
        
        Did Jesus abolish the Law or not?
        
        Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:14-15 No. (Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." Yes. (Eph. 2:14-15),
        "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke
        down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the
        enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that
        in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing
        peace." In Matthew 5:17
        Jesus is speaking about the Old Testament principles and authority of
        rule and revelation. When Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law,
        He came to establish it and demonstrate how it pointed to Him and how He
        would live it perfectly. In Eph. 2:14-15,
        Paul is speaking about how the gentiles who were called the
        uncircumcision (v. 11), were separated from Christ (v. 12), but have now
        been brought near (to God) by the blood of Christ (v. 13). Jesus
        removed the requirement of having to follow the Law in order to please
        God, established justification by faith, and thereby united both Jew and
        Gentile into one group in Christ. This is when Paul says in verse 15
        that he abolished in his flesh the enmity which is the law of
        commandments in ordinances. The Law was that which separated Jew from
        Gentile and since it has been fulfilled in Christ, it is no longer
        something that would separate Jew and Gentile.
      - millergroup2
        
        Again Jeff, please list these changes you speak of. The word of God is "unchanging". Never has changed, never will.
        
        Gen 1:1
        
        In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
        
        Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
        Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
        Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The fact that the books of the bible, both the Old and New Testament, have undergone change throughout the centuries, is undeniable. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove this. The Scrolls, dating to about the first century C.E., demonstrate that there were several versions of scripture in distribution– some that are claimed by scholars to be even more extensive, and of better quality, than those found in our modern bibles.
        
        Most Christians seem to think that the bible (as it is now, with its sixty-six or so books, divided into chapters and verses) has existed for thousands of years. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the bible that most Christians are familiar with is a fairly recent contrivance. The religious term "canon" refers to the divinity of a specific set of writings. Just which books are canonical and which are not has been the subject of debate among Judeo-Christian leaders for the last two thousand years. The Protestant Church did not agree on which books should be contained in the bible until as late as 1647, at the Assembly of Westminster.
        
        New Testament Books which are now accepted by Christians, but which were for a time rejected, are Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.
        
        Books now excluded from the canon, but which are found in some of the older manuscripts of the New Testament, are Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, Paul’s Epistle to Laodiceans, Apostolic Constitutions.
        
        Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees.
        
        The only books of the bible which are accepted as divine by all Jews and all varieties of Christians are the first five books of the Old Testament: the Pentateuch.
        
        There are lost books of the bible, which should have been included into the canon. These books are cited by writers of the Bible, and they are: Book of the Wars of the Lord, Book of Jasher, Book of the Covenant, Book of Nathan, Book of Gad, Book of Samuel, Prophecy of Ahijah, Visions of Iddo, Acts of Uzziah, Acts of Solomon, Three Thousand Proverbs of Solomon, A Thousand and Five Songs of Solomon, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Book of Jehu, Book of Enoch.
        
        What ever happened to the Gospels according to Thomas, Jade, James, Peter, and the Gospel of the Hebrews, of the Egyptians, of Perfection, of Judas, of Thaddeus, of the Infancy, of the Preaching of Peter, of the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Pastor of Hermas, the Revelation of Peter, the Revelation of Paul, the Epistle of Clement, the Epistle of Ignatius, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Nicodemus and of Marcion? They were all not considered inspired (or inspired enough). They did not get voted in. There were also the Acts of Pilate, of Andrew, of Mary, of Paul and Thecla, and many others. If the bishops at the Council of Laodicea in 365 had voted differently, millions of Christians would have believed differently. The vote of the one is the belief of all the others.
      - millergroup2
        
        Jeff, some of the verbiage below is copied from other sites, mixed in with my own research. I do suppose that you too use referenced text. These extra books have been a long standing controversy. This I know you cannot agree with, however God knows what he is doing, and this is why we do not have all this extra stuff to boggle our minds. Man always has tried to add to God's word in attempt to make more sense. This is a big problem when the wisdom of man corrupts. I think God invented the saying "Keep it simple stupid". If you add the other books, the entire creation, and plan of salvation spirals out of control.
        
        Still waiting for you to list conflicts in the bible we do hold, however.
        
        The fifteen Apocryphal
        books which the Roman Catholics have included in their Bibles, come
        from a collection of about eighteen or more books written during the
        Inter-testamental Period. This period of four hundred years began with
        God giving the last book of the Old Testament which was Malachi. The
        Inter-testamental period ended with the coming of Christ and the
        writing of the New Testament. During this four hundred years God sent
        no prophets to Israel and was silent giving no written revelation.
        
        The word "apocrypha" means "of questionable authenticity." These are
        called non canonical books because when the canon of Scriptures (the
        sixty six books of the Old and New Testaments) was accepted by the early
        Christians they recognized that these books contained spurious material
        and therefore were not inspired of God. Other names for these books
        are "hidden" or "deuterocanonical" books. These books are also called
        "pseudepigraphal", meaning "false writings" to designate them as
        spurious and unauthentic books of the late centuries B. C. and early
        centuries A. D. These books contain religious folklore and have never
        been considered inspired of God by biblical Christians from the earliest
        times of churches.
        
        Some have referred to these books as the missing books of the Bible and
        conclude they are new discovers which are part of God's revelation.
        Nothing could be further from the truth. The sixty six books that
        comprise the Old and Testament are God's revelation to man and when John
        completed the Book of Revelation, God's word to man was complete. God
        has not added to His revelation since. The content of these spurious
        books shows them to be inspired of man…not God. It is also
        noteworthy that the Roman Catholic church which is a false church with
        false doctrines and pagan teachings accepts these books as scripture.
        Further, some of the cults including the Church of Jesus Christ of
        Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, also accept them as scripture. No
        biblical Christians or churches have ever accept them as such. The
        fact is there are no lost books of the Bible.
        
        These books or writings from the Apocrypha that the Roman Catholic
        Church claims are inspired are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon,
        Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Letter of Jeremiah,
        additions to Esther, Prayer of Azariah, Susanna (Daniel 13), and Bel and
        the Dragon (Daniel 14). Three other Apocryphal books in the
        Septuagint, the Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 & 2 Esdras, are not
        considered to be inspired or canonical by the Roman Catholic Church.
        These books were not accepted by the Roman Catholic church until 1546 in
        the Council of Trent. Therefore for over 1300 years, since the
        inception of the Roman Church in the fourth Century, even they did not
        considered them inspired.
        Why do non-Catholic authorities reject the Apocrypha as being a part of the sixty six books of the canon?
        
        There are mainly four reasons: 1. They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms.
        2. They teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with inspired Scripture.
        3. They resort to literary types and display an artificiality
        of subject matter and styling out of keeping with inspired Scripture.
        4. They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine
        Scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and
        religious feeling.
        
        Why do biblical Christians and churches reject the Apocrypha as being inspired of God?:
        
        1.
        These books existed before New Testament times, yet there is not one
        single quotation from the Apocrypha is in the New Testament. Jesus
        quoted from twenty four of the Old Testament books, and the New
        Testament quotes from thirty four books of the Old Testament.
        Introductory phrases like "it is written" or "thus says the Lord" are
        totally absent from the books and therefore the books themselves do not
        claim to be inspired of God.
        
        The books of 1st and 2nd Maccabees have historical significance,
        but when they are compared to the Bible they shown to not be the
        inspired Word of God. Even though they have some historical value
        these books are clouded by the contradictions found in their text. For
        example, in 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die
        three different deaths in as many different places. 2.
        Although some of the early church fathers quoted from these writings,
        and even accepted them as inspired, this does not mean they were
        inspired. The majority of the early church writers rejected these books
        as being inspired. Clearly in the Second Century and afterward there
        were many false teachers and heretics. It is important to know that
        Jesus nor any of the Apostles quoted from or mention any of these books.
        3. Some early Greek manuscripts contain the Apocrypha, along
        with the Septuagint.(the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament).
        The Septuagint was translated in Alexandra, Egypt which was a hot bed
        of heresy. From Alexandra also came the corrupted manuscripts of Alpeh,
        A, B upon which all modern English translations are based (the
        Westcott-Hort text). They including of several of these books in the
        LXX, (Septuagint) was the natural result of the spirit of heresy and
        false teaching in Egypt. However, none of these books were ever
        included in the Hebrew Bible and were never accepted by the Jews.
        Further no Greek manuscript contains the apocryphal books as does the
        Roman Catholic Bible. Moreover, not a single ancient manuscript
        contains all of the apocryphal books. Lastly, only four of the
        apocryphal books are found in copies of the LXX and these manuscripts
        date to the fourth century A.D. No copy of the Septuagint before that
        time has any Apocryphal books included which reflect the progression of
        heresy in Egypt. 4. The Jews are the ones who canonized
        the Books of the Old Testament and they did not include them. They have
        always excluded these Apocryphal books because the material in these
        books is heretical and contains gross doctrinal errors. Some of these
        gross doctrinal errors are; prayers for the dead. ( 2 Macc. 12:45-46)
        and salvation by works. (Tobit 12:9). Praying for the dead is not
        biblical as Hebrews 9:27 plainly states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." There is no second chance after death. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that salvation is not by works or merited by man. "For
        by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
        the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
        The stories in the Apocryphal books are extra biblical, fanciful and
        clearly pure fiction. For example the story of Bel and the Dragon is
        clearly a fairy tale. The tale says that a pagan priest of Bel tried to
        deceive Daniel by using a trap door to consume food left for the idol
        Bel. This pagan priest was seeking to convince Daniel that Bel was a
        real god who ate and drank everyday. Another fanciful tale relates that
        Daniel was miraculously fed by the prophet Habakkuk, who was caught up
        by an angel in Judea, and taken to help Daniel in the lion's den in
        Babylon. Daniel lived hundreds of years before this spurious book
        titled "Bel and the Dragon" was written.
        Another such tale is found in Tobit. Tobit, a
        blind father who supposedly lived in Nineveh, sends his son Tobias on a
        journey to collect a debt. On a journey Tobias is led by an angel in
        disguise named Raphael. The angel leads him to the house of a virgin
        who had been married seven times, but whose husbands were all slain by a
        demon on their wedding night. Tobias marries the girl and drives away
        the demon by burning the heart of a certain fish in the bedroom, with
        the help of Raphael. He returns home with the money and his bride, and
        then heals his father's eyes with the fish's gall.
        
        Some of the teachings in these books are colored
        and some are immoral. In Judith 9:10,13, it says that God, assisted
        Judith in the telling of lies. The Apocryphal books of Ecclesiasticus
        and Wisdom teach that morality is based on expedience. In other words,
        according to these books it is right to sin in some situations.
        The Book of Wisdom 11:17 teaches that God made the universe out of
        pre-existing matter instead of "ex nihilo" (out of nothing) as Genesis
        1:1-2, John 1:1-3 and Hebrews 11:3 plainly state.
        There are also historical errors Tobit claimed that he was alive when
        the Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 B. C. and when Jeroboam revolted
        against Judah in 931 B. C. However it records his total life span as
        158 years. These two events were actually 859 years apart. Judith
        also mistakenly states that Nebuchadnezzar reigned in Nineveh instead of
        Babylon. There are many other gross historical errors as well.
        
        No true Bible believing church as has ever accepted the books
        as canonical for these reasons. In order for a book to be considered
        inspired of God and included in the canon it must satisfy the follow
        requirements.
        
        1. It must have been written by a prophet of God. None of the Apocryphal books claim they were.
        2. It must come with the authority of God. These spurious
        books are strikingly absence of the ring of authority. None of them
        come up to or compare in any way to the character and quality of the
        sixty six Books of the Bible.
        3. It must demonstrate that the power of God rests on the book. There is nothing transforming about these books.
        
        4. It must tell the truth about God, man, history, science, etc.
        The books are full of contradictions, errors and even heresies. The
        Apocryphal books are full of untruth.
        5. It must be accepted by biblical Christians as inspired of
        God. The Apocryphal books completely fail this final and fatal test.
        Why did the Catholic church accept them as canonical.
        
        In a nutshell, the Roman Catholic church has never had any biblical
        support for its teachings such as purgatory, prayers for the dead, works
        for salvation, etc. The events of the Reformation brought the Roman
        Catholic heresies into question and they had not scriptural authority
        for teachings. However, these false teachings are found in the
        Apocryphal books, so the Council of Tent in 1546, canonized them
        proclaiming them to be "sacred" books. This ruse gave them support for
        there erroneous teachings. It is always the clear mark of a cult or
        false church to add extra biblical revelations to the Bible in order to
        seek to justify their false teachings. Historically, the Roman Catholic
        church did not accept these books for the first 1300 years of their
        history. Clearly, the reason they changed their position was that during
        the Reformation the teachings of Catholicism came under scrutiny by
        people who were studying God's word, they could find no mention in the
        Bible of a place called Purgatory, prayers for the dead, paying of
        indulgences and other practices of the Roman church.
        The
        Apocryphal books themselves show they are not inspired of God and
        mostly fictional works. They have never been truly accepted by biblical
        Christians as part of God's word.
        
        The Roman Church practice of accepting of money, called
        "indulgences" for the payment of sins especially came under attack as
        being unbiblical. History shows that accepting indulgences brought a
        great deal of money into the coffers of the Roman Catholic Church. A
        Roman Catholic could actually purchase a indulgence in advance and then
        go out an commit his sin. It was this unbiblical practice that was one
        of the reasons that Martin Luther wrote his "Ninety-five Thesis" and
        tacked it to the door of the Wittenburg church door. His action sparked
        the Reformation which began in 1517 which was the also the beginning of
        Protestantism. There is a statement found in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45,
        which says "2,000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a
        sin-offering…Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they
        might be delivered from sin." On this brief statement the Roman
        Catholic church has hung its teachings of Purgatory and paying for
        indulgences for payment of sins. However, nowhere in God's word is
        there found any mention of a prayer or a sin offering for the dead.
        Hebrews 9:27 says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews
        9:27. In God's word, there is no place called Purgatory or any prayers
        offered for dead men. When a man dies his fate is sealed. If a man is
        a believer, he as a child of God, goes to heaven, if he is a lost man
        he will go to hell. There is no second chance after death. Paul
        clearly states that a Christian goes immediately into the presence of
        God when he dies, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
        
        The false doctrines, historical, cultural, and
        scientific error, which are contrary to the teachings of the sixty six
        books of the Bible, show the Apocryphal books are not inspired of God.
        
        The inclusion of the Apocrypha in the original printing of the
        King James Bible strictly for historical reasons. They were included
        like the materials in many of our modern Bibles for reference. These
        books were written during the Inter-testamental period between the Old
        and New Testaments. They contained for example the books of 1st and
        2nd Maccabees which record the of rebellion of the Jews against Syria
        leading to Roman occupation of Israel during the time of Christ.
        During this 400 year period many changes occurred among the Jews such as
        the beginning of worship in synagogues, the rise of the sects of the
        Pharisees and Sadducee's, the rabbinical writings of the Talmud, etc.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        However, these other books have been in versions of the bible. Some of the current books were at times excluded in versions of the bible. And that was my point, that the bible has not been a consistent and never changed book.
      - millergroup2
        
        Good point. Man will try (always) to insert books, words, ideas, interpretations etc. that do not come directly from the word of God. Christians must study and know the word of God, and to be always ready to expose the fakes. Many call us haters of other copy-cat, so called churches who say that they are directed by God. We are not haters, but diligent to defend the Word of God. Outside the Word of God, there are no truths. The bible has not changed since its conception. It has been added to, rewritten with many errors and omissions, and sometimes whole books deleted. However these changes are not from God, but from feeble man, and in due time ALWAYS corrected.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Nonsense. There has never been a time when the biblical god stated which books should be included. People wrote the books of the bible and people are the ones who have been deciding which books go in the bible.
      - millergroup2
        
        All scripture is God breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
        
        New International Version
        
        All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
        
        I. Its Amazing Unity
        
        Covered already, written by forty different writers from nineteen
        different occupations, who lived over a period of fifteen hundred years.
        Most of them never saw each other, yet their message blends to together
        in perfect unity as though they sat down together and discussed it. In
        reality, most of the writers never talked to nor saw each other or had
        seen what the other had written. How did this unity come about then? God
        wrote it through them.
        
        II. Its Indestructibility
        
        IN SPITE OF POLITICAL PERSECUTIONS
        
        In A.D. 303, Emperor Diocletion thought he had destroyed every hated
        Bible. He erected a column of victory over the ashes of a burned Bible
        which read, "Extinct is the name of Christianity." Twenty years later
        the Emperor Constantine offered a reward for any remaining Bibles. In
        twenty four short hours, over fifty showed up.
        
        IN SPITE OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTIONS
        
        History tells us that almost without exception, the early popes
        opposed the reading and translating of Bibles. In 1199 Pope Innocent III
        ordered the burning of all Bibles.
        
        John Wycliffe dedicated his life in the 1300s translating the Bible
        into the language of common folk. He was the first to translate it into
        English. He then sent preachers throughout England to preach it. He was
        hated by organized religion for this. Being a threat to their
        soul-slavery machine which kept the people from the truth, they levied
        threats and accusations against him. When Wycliffe died, the "Church"
        said of him, "That pestilent wretch, John Wycliffe, the son of the old
        serpent the forerunner of Antichrist, who had completed his iniquity by
        inventing a new translation of the Scriptures." Forty four years after
        his death, Pope Clement VIII ordered his grave torn up, the coffin and
        skeleton taken to the River Swift, where a fire was kindled and his
        bones were burned, the ashes were then thrown into the river.
        
        William Tyndale of the 1600s was probably the greatest of all Bible
        translators. He said, "If God spares my life, ere many years, I will
        cause the boy that drives the plough to know the Scriptures." The
        political and religious leaders of his day had him strangled and then
        burnt at the stake.
        
        Though both he and Wycliffe suffered martyrdom for the faith, their
        names live on today. Wycliffe Translators and Tyndale Publishers still
        thrive today publishing the Word Of God!
        
        IN SPITE OF PHILOSOPHICAL PERSECUTIONS
        
        Voltaire said, "Another century and there will not be a Bible on
        earth." He has been dead for over two hundred years! The Bible lives.
        Shortly after his death, Voltaire's house and printing press were sold
        to the Geneva Bible Society and made a depot for Bibles.
        
        Thomas Paine said, "I have gone through the Bible as a man would go
        through a forest with an axe to fell trees. I have cut down tree after
        tree: here they lie. They will never grow again." Paine thought he
        demolished the Bible. But since he crawled into a drunkard's grave, the
        Bible has been the best seller in this country and remains so today.
        
        The hammers of political, religious, and philosophical persecution
        still beat against the anvil of God's Word, but it is the anvil that
        wears out the hammers!
        
        III. Its Scientific Accuracy
        
        The Bible's scientific statements are true. The Bible says the earth
        is round! Isaiah 40:22 says, "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of
        the earth …" How did Isaiah know this seven hundred years BEFORE
        Christ? Man did not discover this till 1492 when Columbus sailed the
        ocean blue. Columbus gave credit to the Word of God for leading him to
        sail. The Bible was two thousand years ahead of science!
        
        Once the scientists were convinced that the earth rested upon
        something. They suggested the back of a turtle that was slowly plodding
        through space! Mythology thought that maybe Atlas held the earth on his
        shoulders. But in Job 26:7 it is written, "He stretcheth out the north
        over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing … ." This was
        not accepted as a scientific fact until Sir Isaac Newton in 1687, three
        thousand years after Job stated it!
        
        By the time of Christ, scientists believed that there were one
        thousand twenty eight stars in the heavens. Then came Ptolemy in A.D.
        150 and he said there were one thousand fifty six. It was not until
        Galileo, in the 1600s, used a telescope to show that they are in fact
        innumerable. Yet in Genesis 15:5, God said to Abraham, "Look now toward
        heaven; tell the stars if thou be able to number them: so shall thy seed
        be." This statement was made two thousand five hundred years before
        Galileo.
        
        How? Because God, the Creator, wrote the Bible! Many other scientific
        facts could be brought out here, but space does not permit.
        
        IV. Its Historical Accuracy
        
        Agnostics took glee in referring to "hundreds of historical mistakes"
        in the Bible a century ago. Then came the science of archeology and now
        the sneers can scarcely be seen. Only a bigot or an ignoramus would now
        deny the historical merits of God's Word. For instance, archeology has
        long established that the lower Tigris Euphrates Valley in Mesopotamia
        was the birthplace of civilization. The Bible says this is the location
        of the Garden of Eden.
        
        Ur of the Chaldees was once scoffed at as being a fictitious place.
        C. L. Wooley's excavations in 1922 have nor made Ur one of the most
        known ancient sites of our time. Genesis 11 says this was the birthplace
        of Abraham!
        
        Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis 18-19) is the leading center for the
        mining of potash today in Israel. William Albright found in his work
        that a dense population of people in these towns perished abruptly
        around 2000 B.C. in an earthquake and an explosion.
        
        Halley's Bible Commentary lists almost one hundred other
        archaeological findings that verify the historical accuracy of the
        Bible, GOD'S WORD!
        
        One of special interest is the repentance of a large city named
        Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the prophet. Many scoff at the idea of a
        man being swallowed by a big fish (though it has happened more than
        once). However, history has proven that during his days, Shalmaneser II,
        the king of Ninevah, and that whole city (twice the size of Buffalo)
        had a religious awakening and turned to the God Nebo, which was the
        Assyrian name for the Hebrew Elohim found in Genesis 1:1.
        
        V. Its Prophetic Accuracy
        
        One of the acid tests of any religion is its ability to predict the
        future. In this area the Bible reigns supreme. One searches in vain
        through pages of other "sacred writings" to find even one single line of
        accurate prophecy. However, one-third of the entire Bible deals with
        prophecy.
        
        Five hundred years before the birth of Jesus Christ, Old Testament
        writers predicted the time of His birth, and that He would be born of a
        virgin, in Bethlehem. There were predictions about His flight into
        Egypt, rejection by the Jews, betrayal by a friend, triumphal entry,
        being sold for thirty pieces of silver, being beaten and spit upon,
        crucified with sinners, having His hands and feet pierced, given gall
        and vinegar to drink, that His side would be pierced, soldiers would
        cast lots for His garmets, His resurrection, His ascension, etc. That is
        quite specific! Can you predict things that will happen to someone five
        hundred years from now? Of course not! God gave the Word! Future events
        are dealt with thoroughly in the Bible.
        
        VI. Its Amazing Circulation
        
        When David Hume said, "I see the twilight of Christianity and the
        Bible," he was much confused, for he could not tell the sunset from the
        sunrise.
        
        Consider these facts:
        
        1. The American Bible Society has distributed eight hundred sixty MILLION Bibles since 1816.
        
        2. At least one book of the Bible is now in one thousand two hundred fifty languages, like no other book.
        
        3. The Bible in its completeness is now in two hundred thirty seven languages, more than there are nations on earth.
        
        4. There are over three thousand translators currently working in one hundred fifty countries.
        
        5. Only half of one percent of ALL BOOKS published survive seven
        years. Eighty percent of ALL BOOKS published are forgotten in one year!
        Only one out of two hundred survive seven years. Solomon said, "Of
        making of books there is no end." Au contraire, the Bible is two
        thousand years old and is today's best seller in America.
        
        Where would you go to find a copy of the Zen Vedas or the Egyptian
        Book of the Dead? Dozens of religions have flourished and disappeared
        off the face of the earth without even leaving a trace. Other religious
        writings may be viewed behind glass cases in the rare book section of
        dusty museums. But the smallest child can walk into almost any store in
        America and pick up a copy of the Word of God. Bible circulation has
        increased two hundred percent since 1960 according to the ABS.
        
        VII. Its Care In Copy
        
        Some skeptics say, "How can you trust the Bible? That book has been
        around for two thousand years and has been rewritten so many times you
        don't know if you're reading the same thing today." THAT STATEMENT SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE!!!
        
        Today there are almost five thousand ANCIENT GREEK manuscripts of the
        New Testament! Consider this, Fifteen hundred years after Herodotus
        wrote his history there was only one copy in the entire world. Twelve
        hundred years after Plato wrote his classic, there was only one
        manuscript of it left. Today there exists but a few manuscripts of
        Sophocles, Euripedes, Virgil, and Cicero.
        
        We have not one but five thousand ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. How much safer can you get?
        
        "What about the Old Testament?" someone asks. The following rules for
        scribes are written in the Talmud for copying the Hebrew text:
        
        1. The parchment must be made of the skin of a clean animal, by a Jew only.
        
        2. Each column must have no less than forty eight nor more than sixty lines.
        
        3. The ink must be black, made by a special recipe.
        
        4. No word nor letter could be written from memory, the scribe must
        have an authentic copy before him. He had to read and pronounce aloud
        each word before writing it.
        
        5. Each time he reverently wiped his pen (before writing) and washed his whole body EVERY TIME he wrote the sacred name Jehovah.
        
        6. One mistake on a sheet condemned it. If three mistakes were found, the whole manuscript was condemned.
        
        7. Every word and letter was counted. If a letter was omitted or
        added or if two letters touched each other, the whole manuscript was
        condemned.
        
        The scribe was told that even if a king walked in, he was to ignore
        him till he finished the page, lest he make a mistake. That is a pretty
        fool proof plan.
        
        That is how we got the Bible today.
        
        VIII. Its Universal Influence
        
        The western world owes its Christian influence to the Bible. Paul's
        obedience in Acts 16:9 to God sent him to Europe rather than Asia or the
        East.
        
        The world's calendar and most of its holidays stem from the Bible.
        The Bible has inspired the advancement of the arts. Ruskin quotes five
        thousand scriptural references in his writings. Milton, Shakespeare,
        Coleridge, Scott, Bryant, Longfellow, Kipling, Carlyle, Macaulay,
        Hawthorne, Irving, Thoreau, and other's greatest works have roots in the
        Bible.
        
        Fifty two Old Testament and sixty five New Testament world famous
        paintings are preserved today. These are found in every single important
        museum in the world. They include Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt,
        Raphael, Michelangelo, and others.
        
        The Bible has inspired more inspiring music than all other books
        combined. Bach was a zealous Lutheran who devoted most of his genius to
        Bible and church-centered music. Mendelssohn authored "St. Paul,
        Elijah." Beethoven wrote "Mount of Olives," Haydn wrote "The Creator,"
        and who has not heard Handel's "Messiah"?
        
        Space does not permit to write concerning the Ten Commandments and
        their effect on western law. A copy of our message, "America's Heritage
        You've Never Heard It This Way Before" can be sent to you free upon
        written request.
        
        IX. Its Absolute Honesty
        
        Who writes bad things about friends? God does! His absolute honesty
        led Him to do this. Noah's Ark rests on Mt. Ararat in Turkey today. Noah
        is considered as a great Bible hero, yet in Genesis 9:20-24, after the
        flood, he is seen drunk and naked.
        
        God would testify that David, perhaps the grandest human king to sit
        on a throne, was a man after God's own heart. He was fearless, kind and
        loving. But in II Samuel 11, this same king is accurately accused of
        lust, adultery, and murder. Elijah is pictured as a colorful and
        exciting prophet. In I Kings 18, he takes on four hundred and fifty
        priests of Satan single-handed and defeats them. In the next chapter he
        is pictured fleeing for his life from one woman. Examples of Moses,
        Peter and others could be given. Who writes bad things about their
        friends? That is not natural. We always cover up or water down our sins,
        however, the Bible is not natural, it is supernatural! It exposes us
        the way we really are.
        
        Who writes good things about their enemies? God does. Study what He
        writes about Esau in Genesis 33, Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2, Darius in
        Daniel 6, Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-39, etc. That is not natural. No, but it
        is as honest as God!
        
        Who writes doctrines that are repugnant to the human mind such as
        hell, man's total helplessness and the judgement? Not man, but God.
        
        X. Its Ability To Change Corrupt Humanity
        
        1. The Chief of Sinners, Changed
        
        By his own testimony, the Apostle Paul called himself the
        chief-of-sinners before his conversion to Christ (I Timothy 1:13). The
        book of Acts tells of this man's life. He took care of the coats of
        Stephen's murderers as they stoned him. He arrested Christians and threw
        them into prison. He beat Christians. He compelled them to use abusive
        language. He made havoc of the church, persecuted them to death and
        attempted to destroy their faith. Not much hope for this guy, right?
        Wrong, this ravaging wolf heard the voice of the Chief Shepherd, the
        Lord Jesus Christ, and became one of God's best sheepdogs!
        
        2. A Modern Day Paul
        
        The well-known atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair's son, William, was a
        tool in the hand of this atheist and the courts to get Bible reading out
        of the public schools. These two atheists sought for decades to destroy
        the Bible and the Christian faith in this country. However, something
        amazing happened. William Murray got saved. His life has been changed by
        the power of God's Word. This very day he goes up and down this country
        as a born-again, Bible believing, preaching, and practicing evangelist
        preaching the word of God! Amazing! It was said of the Apostle Paul in
        Galatians 1:23, "… He which persecuted us in the times past now
        preacheth the faith which once he destroyed." The same could be said of
        William Murray. God's Word can change lives today.
        
        3. Mutiny on the Bounty
        
        Probably there is no more sensational example of the
        life-transforming power of the Bible than the unbelievable story of
        Mutiny on the Bounty. In 1887, the Bounty, under Captain Bligh, set sail
        for Tahiti. After ten months the ship arrived, and a further six months
        were spent collecting palm saplings. In the meantime, the sailors
        became attached to the native girls. Upon receiving the order to embark,
        they mutinied, set the Captain and a few men adrift in a boat, and
        returned to the island.
        
        Captain Bligh survived and returned to England. A punitive expedition
        was sent out and captured fourteen mutineers. Nine transferred to
        another island and started a colony. Here they degenerated so fast and
        became so fierce the colony became a hell on earth. The chief reason was
        the distillation of whiskey. Quarrels, orgies, and murders were common.
        Finally all but one were killed or died off. Alexander Smith was left
        alone with a crowd of native women and half-breed children.
        
        Then a strange thing happened. He found a Bible in a battered chest.
        He read it, believed it, and began to live it and teach it. Time rolled
        on. The children grew up as Christians. Twenty years later, an American
        ship visited the island. There was no disease, no insanity, no crime, no
        illiteracy, and no strong drink. Word got back to England of its
        peaceful state and the British government took no further action because
        it was a Christian community. It was a veritable Utopia on a small
        scale. What had brought about this amazing transformation? One book, THE
        BIBLE!
        
        4. Two Enemy Pilots, Now Friends
        
        When Captain Mitsuo Fuchida, the Japanese squadron commander who led
        the raid on Pearl Harbor in 1941, and Jacob DeShazer, one of the famed
        Doolittle flyers who participated in the bombing of Tokyo in 1942, sat
        on the platform together in Christian Evangelistic meetings in Japan,
        they created quite a sensation. And so they should. Bitter national
        enemies who had delighted in sending fiery death and destruction to each
        other, were united in a tremendous cooperative effort for Christian
        Evangelism. Their textbook: The Bible.
        
        5. Gypsy Smith
        
        When famous evangelist Gypsy Smith was holding meetings in Chicago in
        1923, a young man who had been reared in the most profane and evil kind
        of environment carried a brick to the service intending to throw it at
        the Evangelist, start a riot, and break up the meeting. When Gypsy Smith
        walked on the platform, his attention immediately focused on the
        depraved young man. Looking him straight in the face, he said, "Young
        man, Jesus loves your soul," and began to preach the Word of God. The
        brick was never thrown. The next morning the ruffian visited the
        evangelist's hotel room, still carrying the brick. With great emotion he
        told of his purpose the night before. The Word of God, like a knife,
        had gone straight to his wicked heart and left him shaken, miserable,
        and helpless. He dropped to his knees and asked God to save him.
        
        Three years later, in his home in England, Gypsy Smith received a
        Christmas card greeting signed by sixteen students who had just
        graduated from Moody Bible Institute. The first name on the list was
        that of the young man who had carried the brick.
        
        6. St. Augustine
        
        Shortly after receiving Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour,
        Augustine met a prostitute on the street. Pretending not to see her, he
        attempted to pass without recognition, but she called, "Augustine, it is
        I." He turned to her then and answered, "Yes, but it is not I."
        
        The Bible says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new
        creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are become new."
        (II Corinthians 5:17).
        
        7. The Doctor and The Pickpocket
        
        Among the thousands of conversions in the London Crusade were those
        of a medical doctor and the man who sat next to him in the arena. Before
        the service began, the two strangers engaged in a brief conversation,
        criticizing the campaign and expressing the utmost skepticism. As the
        evangelist preached, the doctor came under conviction. When the
        invitation was given, the doctor said to the man next to him, "I don't
        know about you, but I'm going forward to receive Christ." The other
        hesitated for a minute, then reached into his pocket and replied, "I'm
        going too, and here's your wallet. I'm a pickpocket."
        
        It Can Change You
        
        I am so glad that God has changed my life. I was a most unworthy
        sinner and heading for an eternity separated from God forever because of
        my sin, though I was religious. But religious people are lost and need
        to be saved, and I was. How? Through the gospel!
        
        Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the POWER OF GOD unto SALVATION."
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You claim that god decided which scripture was to be in the bible. Please show the scripture which lists these books. However, since you cannot do that since such a list does not exist, what you are left with is that men decided which ones would be there. That is why books have been added and books have been deleted.
        
        I can show comments from people of other religions who believe that their lives were changed by their believe in different gods. That hardly means that there was a god who made these changes happen in anyone's life.
      - petroskhan
        
        "There is NO evidence that the speed of light has ever been different."
        Not exactly correct. There is evidence:
        
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/astro/2001-08-15-speed-of-light.htm
        
        http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6092-speed-of-light-may-have-changed-recently.html
        
        While the debate goes on, it would be fallacious to state that there is NO evidence.
    - petroskhan
      
      "…it doesn't even tell you how to program a computer."
      
      Neither does Shakespeare. Is his writing worthless, too? Is that the measure of the written word, its usefulness in programming?
      
      You always manage to toss out something really ridiculous, you know that, Chris?
      - millergroup2
        
        Actually the bible is a computer.
    - millergroup2
      
      Chris, The following is copied and pasted for your reading pleasure. They do not reveal this stuff in "middle school".
      
      What Is a Bible Code?
      
      There is no way to ignore the clear fact that a computerized code in
      the Bible . . . accurately predicted the Gulf War, the collision of a
      comet with Jupiter, and the assassination of [Israeli Prime Minister]
      Rabin, also seems to state that the Apocalypse starts now, that within a
      decade, we may face the real Armageddon, a nuclear World War.(1)
      
      So ends Michael Drosnin's best-seller The Bible Code. On the New York Times
      bestseller list for months, the book has created a small industry of
      people selling books about secret codes, and a huge audience of people
      reading about and discussing codes. And what are these "codes" that are
      so fascinating and how does the Bible fit into all of this? Those are
      just a few of the questions we will address in this essay as we try to
      reach some balanced conclusions about a very controversial topic.
      
      People have written codes since at least 400 B.C., and Jewish
      scholars have looked for codes in the text of the Old Testament for
      approximately a thousand years. Gematria, the discipline of
      changing portions of text into numbers to look for a deeper meaning, has
      been part of Jewish Cabalistic tradition since at least the 13th
      century. But it is only in the last twenty years that computers have
      extended the range of text searches to almost unimaginable lengths.
      
      At the heart of the current controversy is a scientific paper by
      three Israeli mathematicians with the helpful title of: "Equidistant
      Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis." A quite technical paper, it
      was published in Statistical Science in 1994.(2) As is typical
      in scientific publications, it was peer reviewed. In fact, three other
      qualified statisticians read the paper, and while confounded by the
      results, each agreed that the mathematics and data used seemed
      legitimate. So what did Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg
      write that has caused so much excitement?
      
      In the 1980s Eliyahu Rips, an Orthodox Jew and well-known Israeli
      mathematician, came across the writings of Rabbi Michael Weismandel. The
      book is so rare that Rips found only one copy, at the National Library
      in Israel. Rabbi Weismandel discovered that by starting with the first
      Hebrew letter "T" in the book of Genesis and counting forward 49 letters
      to find an "O" as the 50th letter, and then another 49 letters to an
      "R," another 49 letters to an "A," and finally another 49 letters to an
      "H," the word TORAH was spelled out. "Torah" is the Hebrew name for the
      books Moses wrote. This same pattern happens in the book of Exodus. But
      in Numbers and Deuteronomy one must count backwards beginning at either
      the first or fifth verse. But why 50?(3)
      
      In Jewish rabbinic tradition, most numbers are symbolic. For example,
      50 is the year of Jubilee, the year that all land goes back to its
      original owner, when all debts are canceled, when the land rests for the
      whole year. It is also said that there are fifty gates of wisdom in the
      Torah.
      
      Rabbi Weismandel is reputed to have found many patterns like this in
      the Torah as he laboriously counted by hand again and again in the most
      holy of all Jewish books. Rips was fascinated by these patterns and
      wondered what a computer could do to find more patterns.
      
      Now, let's see what Eli Rips discovered as he looked at the text with a computer.
      
      Bible Codes Are Demonstrated by Mathematics and Computers
      
      Michael Drosnin's book, The Bible Code, describes the
      discovery by Eli Rips and others, of messages they claim are coded into
      the text of the Hebrew Old Testament, and only discoverable in our own
      time by using computers. These codes warn of dire events in the near
      future that could affect the whole world. But how are these messages
      hidden in a book that has been read for more than 2,000 years?
      
      What Rips uncovered was that if he used Rabbi Weismandel's idea of
      counting off equal intervals between letters, he could find many words
      in the Hebrew text. The technical name for this method is quite a
      mouthful: Equidistant Letter Sequences, or ELS. A computer program finds
      the first letter of a word, and then begins counting until it finds the
      next letter of the word. This becomes the "skip code." Then, using that
      skip code, it counts to see if the third letter of the word is found at
      that same interval. So it would start by skipping every other letter,
      then every two letters, then every three letters until it finds a "skip"
      that spells out the word. Thus, as mentioned earlier, the Hebrew word
      for the first five books of the Bible, "Torah," is spelled out with an
      ELS of 50 in the book of Genesis.
      
      This might be the answer to an interesting trivia question, but why is The Bible Code
      selling thousands of copies? That's because Michael Drosnin has made
      some astounding claims about the ELS codes: that one code anticipated,
      weeks in advance, the exact day the Gulf War would start; that an
      another code predicted Yitzhak Rabin's assassination by a man named
      Amir: that a code anticipated, withing two years of the actual events,
      earthquakes in Japan; and that in the year 2000 or 2006 an atomic
      holocaust, beginning in Israel, is likely. This is great millennial
      material!
      
      Drosnin's book is based on a paper published in Statistical Science
      in 1994 by Witztum, Rips, and Rosenberg. With great statistical rigor,
      the authors show that the 78,064 Hebrew letters of the Book of Genesis,
      when set out with no spaces or punctuation, can be searched by a
      computer for specific words spelled out by ELS codes. Specifically, they
      set out to see if they could find the names of 32 famous rabbis in
      Genesis. Not only did they find ELS codes that spelled out all 32
      rabbis, but near their names were coded their birth dates or death
      dates, or sometimes both. How could any author have known these details
      2000 years before these men lived?
      
      This is amazing enough. The odds are said to be one in ten million!
      But in his book, Drosnin claims the same kind of codes revealed that
      Prime Minister Rabin would be assassinated a year before it happened.
      Drosnin even got a letter delivered through a friend to Rabin, but it
      was ignored. He also shows dozens of other historic events and how
      details about them are encoded all around where an ELS code finds the
      main name or event.
      
      As you might guess, the response to the book has been mixed–to say
      the least. Most people say, "How could a three-thousand-year-old book
      possibly say anything about the future?" Others see this as proof that
      the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. And some are just
      interested but very skeptical.
      
      Next, we'll look at the reaction to The Bible Code and why some are so critical.
      
      Critical Reactions to the Bible Codes
      
      A book making claims to "foretell" the future is almost certain to
      become a target for both eager followers and cynical scholars. In
      particular, a rift has developed between the original writers of the
      mathematical paper, and how Drosnin has used their work.
      
      Witztum, Rips, and Rosenberg, while maintaining the accuracy of their
      original paper, say that Drosnin's attempts to state what may happen in
      the future are "futile," and that Drosnin's book "employs no scientific
      methodology."(4) Witztum categorically states "predicting the future is
      impossible." Seems like a strange statement from a man who claims in
      his own paper that the ELS codes found the names, birth dates, death
      dates, and cities of residence of 32 rabbis thousands of years before
      any of them had been born. What the original authors of the Statistical Science
      paper claim is that the ELS codes they have discovered can only give
      information about what one has a place or name for already. In this
      view, codes can tell us about death camps in Germany because we know
      what to look for. Witxtum uses this to demonstrate ELS codes at work.
      
      What can we find out about Auschwitz? First, we must have
      mathematical tools to measure whether a specific ELS and the words found
      near it are statistically significant. This is provided by the
      calculations laid out in the 1994 paper, Statistical Science. Then one must have a prepared list of words one is looking for.
      
      So, Witztum begins with the words "of Auschwitz" and a list of all of
      the subcamps of this World War II death camp. Once an ELS for Auschwitz
      is found, Witztum claims, "We find something very unexpected that [the
      names of all the subcamps] consistently appear in the area of the words
      'of Auschwitz.'" This, he says, is all that Bible codes can do. Codes
      cannot predict the future.(5)
      
      But when Genesis was written, all 32 rabbis found in Genesis were
      still far in the future. The earliest rabbi found lived in the eighth
      century A.D. This is nearly 2,000 years after Moses. Isn't that
      predicting the future, at least from the author's point of view?
      
      Michael Drosnin himself has been ambivalent about what the codes tell us. His book says, "I found the Bible code's prediction of [Rabin's] assassination myself. . . . When he was killed, as predicted, where predicted,
      my first thought was, 'Oh my God, it's real'"(6) (emphasis mine). But
      in a CNN interview he said, "I don't think the code makes predictions. I
      think it might tell us about possible futures."(7) Either Drosnin has
      changed his mind, or he is disingenuous in his book.
      
      Harold Gans, a retired senior mathematician for the U.S. Department
      of Defense, and an expert at making and breaking codes, was one of the
      first mathematicians to look at the Bible codes. Highly skeptical at
      first, he duplicated their experiment, finding the same information.
      Still suspicious, Gans made up his own test: find the rabbis' cities of
      birth and death. Again the information appeared in close connection with
      their ELS codes. His conclusion: "The information was deliberately
      placed in the Bible by its author. . . . Logic would dictate that the
      author could not be human, could not be bound by the limits of time. It
      would be natural to conclude that the author is a divine being."(8)
      
      Is there finally "proof" that the Bible was written by a divine being? That is our next subject.
      
      Do the Bible Codes Prove Divine Inspiration?
      
      Have codes hidden in the Bible finally proved it to be written by
      God? As we stated earlier, mathematician and code expert Harold Gans
      thinks so. What about The Bible Code's, Michael Drosnin? His
      own response is quite remarkable: "Everyone I met with seemed to assume
      that if the code was real, it must be from God. I did not. I could
      easily believe that it was from someone good, who wanted to save us, but
      was not our Creator. Clearly it was not someone omnipotent, or he would
      simply prevent the danger, instead of encoding a warning."(9)
      
      On the other hand, a Jewish group called Aish HeTorah has developed a
      Discovery Seminar that has been given to nearly 70,000 people in the
      last ten years. To help attendees develop an "appreciation of the
      relevance and value of Torah and Judaism in their lives," roughly 20% of
      the Discovery Seminar features the work of Witztum, Rips, and
      Rosenberg. Harold Gans, the Defense Department code specialist mentioned
      earlier, is an advisor for this group, so compelling has this evidence
      become for him.(10)
      
      Christians, too, have started looking for ELS codes, claiming to find
      the Hebrew for Jesus in all sorts of interesting passages about the
      coming Messiah. Two books by Christians are already out, and surely more
      will follow. So is this finally "the most important evidence that
      proves to this generation that the Bible is truly inspired by God"(11)
      as one Christian writer says?
      
      Brendan McKay is a man with a sense of humor. He also has a mission:
      to show that even the mathematical uses of ELS codes prove nothing.
      McKay is an Australian mathematician who has published the first
      statistical critique of the WRR paper. But at his Web site he has
      accumulated a most interesting series of what he calls "pictures," much
      like the diagrams Drosnin published in The Bible Code. In these
      "pictures" he does exactly what Drosnin does: he looks for a word by
      ELS codes, and then sees what other words occur nearby. He has also
      taken up Drosnin's challenge in Newsweek magazine: "When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them."(12)
      
      Undoubtably Drosnin felt he had nothing to fear: hadn't Rips and his
      colleagues tried to find information in the Hebrew version of War and Peace and found nothing? But published on McKay's web page are the diagrams from Moby Dick
      of predictions of the death of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi of India,
      Lebanese President Moawad, Marxist Leon Trotsky, Abraham Lincoln, Martin
      Luther King, John Kennedy, and even Princess Diana. For Lady Diana, not
      only is her boyfriend Dodi spelled out across her name, but even the
      name of their chauffeur, Henri Paul is there! And more are added
      regularly. But by far the most ironic "discovery" concerns the death of
      Drosnin himself. The place, method, and motive for his death are all
      spelled out.(13)
      
      McKay's technical paper claims to duplicate the WRR paper but finds the 32 rabbis encoded in the Hebrew of Tolstoy's War and Peace.(14)
      McKay and his co-author use the same statistical methods, and have
      Jewish authorities to back their spellings for the rabbis names, just as
      WRR had. So what does this tell us? At this point, no one knows for
      certain.
      
      Finally, let's consider how Christians might want to think about this whole controversy.
      
      How Should Christians Respond to the Bible Codes?
      
      How should thinking Christians respond to these seemingly incredible
      findings of future events foretold in the Bible, but hidden in codes
      only a computer can find? Undoubtably, it is too early to say very much,
      as even the specific methods and mathematical checks have yet to be
      agreed upon. But certain things appear to be clear.
      
      We know very little about how sequences of letters behave when not
      written by an author, but rather put together by a program within a
      computer. Witztum, Rips, and Rosenberg make certain assumptions about
      what would and would not be a significantly close connection between two
      sets of words to rule out random placement. But these are, in the end,
      arbitrary. What McKay and Dror Bar-Natan have done in their own paper,
      "Equidistant Letter Sequences in Tolstoy's War and Peace," is
      demonstrate to their satisfaction that whatever phenomena occurs in the
      Hebrew text of Genesis can also be found in the Hebrew text of War and Peace.(15)
      
      The scholarly arguing about method and mathematics is still going on,
      but what seems to be emerging is the fact that almost any "message" can
      be found if a sufficiently long text is used. If this is true, then we
      have learned something new about how humans who can program computers
      can find non-random messages in random texts, but we have not shown that
      a divine intelligence wrote the Bible.
      
      An important question to ask ourselves is, "Why are we so fascinated
      by codes and mysterious messages in a book as clear as the Bible?" Do we
      not trust that God has given us all we need to know, both for ourselves
      and to evangelize the world, in the text that all of us can read?
      Perhaps for His own pleasure, God has indeed hidden certain things in
      the text of the Bible, but surely they are not the main message. God has
      given us the Bible so that we might know Him and make Him known. ELS
      codes in the Bible do not seem to do much more than pique curiosity.
      
      Our responsibility is to read the text for what it says, not for what
      may be hidden under the surface. We know from the Book of Revelation
      that some great cataclysm is coming, and as it draws nearer, we are
      warned not to be misled. Jesus vividly portrayed how obvious His return
      would be: "Just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to
      the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."(16) So as you
      watch the news and the millennium approaches, keep your "baloney
      detectors" alert!
      
      Will Bible codes become an important tool in the apologetic toolkit
      of evangelical Christians? We should be very cautious when we do not use
      God's Word as He wrote it. Merely studying the Bible codes will not
      necessarily result in Christian faith. For example, Michael Drosnin,
      after years of research for his book, The Bible Code, was still
      an athiest: "I had proof there was a code, but not proof there was a
      God. . . . I don't believe in God. . . . The message of the Bible code
      is that we can save ourselves."(17) If that is all that Drosnin came to
      believe after working with these codes for five years, we are probably
      better off having people read the Bible and encountering the real God
      through His own words. One needs no codes to read and understand John
      3:16.
  - Esther
    
    Key, are you referring to the experiment or to Petroskhan?
    - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
      
      I was repeating an old saying about how computers work. In other words, if you put bad information into the computer, do not expect to get good results from its analysis. Also read Wordman's post above, as he said basically the same thing, but more eloquently than I. Mine was the drive-by cliche' version, his was the more scholarly version.
      - Esther
        
        True I have heard this many times in computer environments… just checking …… also I was thinking the same thing more or less as I wrote my comment.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  The bible is the same. It simply does not state it.
  - petroskhan
    
    The theory of evolution is worse. Its adherents simply are afraid to state it.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      lol. The theory grows stronger every year.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        The theory changes every year, which shows how shaky its foundation really is.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Many people work to debunk the theory. They have never succeeded. And the theory does not change, it grows in accumulated information.
      - http://www.answersingenesis.org/ keyboardshark
        
        He wasn't attempting to debunk the entire theory, only one of its tenets. Punctuated equilibrium is also another evolutionary theory within the theory that can be regarded as a change from standard Darwinian evolution.
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Theories do expand. It is one of the strengths of science.
Esther

The kind of people who interpreted the bible are exactly the kind of people who thought up this experiment. They (probably two scientists with green cards) are going to spend gobs of U. S. money and get science nowhere, but they will publish all these great fictional results (which are already formulated in their heads) that will be applauded by millions of scientists and once again we will be off again on another meaningless, expensive tangent!
Mex Seiko

A well organized, intelligently designed, scientific model to prove random. Out of nothing, everything. In the beginning there was nothing and it exploded.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  No, in the beginning was a singularity which contained all the matter and energy of the universe which already existed. The singularity exploded. The theory never has and never will state that there was nothing at one point.
  - james
    
    What caused the explosion?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      That is a topic that is still being researched. However, all the available data supports that it did explode.
  - Mex Seiko
    
    Oooh! That totally clears it! Out of a singularity, plurality and simplicity, complxity.
    Mex.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Yes it does clarify it . It is too bad you cannot grasp it.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        I think you mean BUY IT.
        
        Edgardo.
Mex Seiko

It's the Tower of Babel all over again.