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One-in-Five Americans Have No Religious Affiliation

The number of Americans who do not identify with any religion continues to grow at a rapid pace. One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling.

In the last five years alone, the unaffiliated have increased from just over 15% to just under 20% of all U.S. adults. Their ranks now include more than 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics (nearly 6% of the U.S. public), as well as nearly 33 million people who say they have no particular religious affiliation (14%).

This large and growing group of Americans is less religious than the public at large on many conventional measures, including frequency of attendance at religious services and the degree of importance they attach to religion in their lives.

However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.

Continue reading at www.pewforum.org
 
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  • aceituna

    Sounds like the "lukewarm" people i n Revelation 3:14-16.

    • Evermyrtle

      Exactly!!

  • daves

    Jesus good, religion bad.

    • Wordman

      Jesus good, church good.
      Sometimes hard to find a healthy one.

      • aceituna

        Reason to study hard and know what is in the Bible!!!

  • petroskhan

    Well, after leaving a church of which I had been a member (off and on) for over 30 years, I would say that I have no "religious affiliation", yet I take my faith more seriously now than at any point in my life.

    I and a few like-minded people have our service/Bible study right here in my living room. Not affiliated with any church doesn't mean having no faith. It could just mean there's a lot of folks out there fed up with the hypocrisy they see in far too many organized religions.

    • Evermyrtle

      Well, petroskhan, I am up the same tree! So many churches are so cool, and many are in power struggles to see who can get the job that they want. The last church that I left has a 88 year old lady who is no longer able to go and not even the pastor ever visits her or calls her. I hope that very few churches is like taht.

      • Winston

        So true. We have left church after church due to their errant leadership and no one called to see why we aren't there any longer… What love is this?

    • Laur

      Amen to that. Study New Testament to find out what God wants you to do. It has to be His way or the highway, so to speak. Few there are that will make it. They want man's way.

    • "Sky Soldier"

      We agree because "church" is more apostate than Biblical. Here's a great resource with many appropriate and right on articles helping sincere Christians to overcome having been "spiritually bruised" by errant church leadership:
      http://paidionbooks.org/pbarticles.html#p

    • Mex Seiko

      Well and good, but The Lord ordained organized Church. Discipleship happens in a structure setting, support to missionaries is strong when 200 or 300 or 1,000 people tithe. The country is so messed up today because so many have "given up" and the church is divided. The more fringe groups are formed the greater the division. Even so called non-denominational churches have become denominations, adding to the plethora of denominations. I totally understand disillusionment. I've gone through a couple. But we don't behold to men, even if it's a pastor. We keep the fight and order with Christ. There should've been a civil war for abortion like there was for slavery. Abortion is far more evil. Fifty three million abortions later good politicians are left without support from the Church using legal creativity to "minimize" what they can. All because we feel "uncomfortable" with this nonsense or the other. We've lost the effectiveness and the nation is going rotten.

      • petroskhan

        "…but The Lord ordained organized Church."

        Show me where, if you don't mind, our Lord "ordained" an organized religion. You will also have to show me where it says that we should tolerate being a part of a faith structure with which we disagree, and which runs counter to the Word of God.

        That is where most, if not all, "organized" churches are today. Far too many have fallen from following the Bible's dictates, and "teach for commandments the doctrines of men." Far too many tolerate, even advocate, paganism, non-Biblical teachings, and outright blasphemies.

        Yes, there are problems with our society right now, but me (or you, or any/every one) taking part in a religious structure with which we (and the Bible) disagree is not the answer.

        • Evermyrtle

          The Bible, and I believe it was JESUS speaking, said that the churches would be like this in the last days. I should look it up to be sure it was HE who spoke these words.

        • Mex Seiko

          You are doing exactly what you accuse the churches of doing. By [Hebrews 10:25] (Not) forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
          1 Cor 12:28
          "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
          Ephe 4:11-14
          "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
          There are many differences among the different churches, but I believe we should unite on what makes us brothers and children of God, which is the gospel. Pre-mil, Amil, Post-trib, or Pre is all minor stuff that should not divide us. Apostasy is another story, but as long a we hold to the gospel we should not stifle the much needed revival in the land.
          The judgment over America will be on our heads because we are not salt.

          • petroskhan

            The "church" is not a building, nor is it any given assemblage of people, no "denomination". It is all those who follow in the footsteps of Christ, who heed His teachings and attempt to live up to the standards He set for us. We will fail, of course, but we will be forgiven for that failure through our repentance, and His grace.

            I have not "forsaken the assembling" together. I clearly stated that I and others of similar conviction "assemble" together each week for study, prayer and worship. What we have forsaken is a false doctrine and paganism, which we will neither participate in nor tolerate.

            The position you seem to be conveying is that one must be part of some structured denomination, meeting in a building (church), with someone in charge…I disagree completely, and nowhere does the Bible command this.

            I find it odd that you make the "salt" reference, since what you're positing is exactly what Christ warned against; namely, tolerating doctrines and ideas that cause one to lose sight of what's important.

          • Mex Seiko

            I offered the Scripture supporting my position for structured organized Assembly of Believers. The Lord Himself had a structure within the Apostolic team. He had an inner circle with privileged access. No argument about the Church not being building. We all agree on that one. But we recognize that, also as an excuse for going solo as renegades not submitting to accountability and pocketing what is God's and not sharing your gifts.
            You keep harping on the purity of doctrine, but you are violating the Lord's design for the Church to satisfy some hang up you have. I have a friend who began "church" meetings on Saturdays in his house because his wife had stop going to church. By giving in to his wife's, whatever it is she has, he creates a string of bad steps that will affect his own family for years to come.
            "We will fail but we will be forgiven!" That's a double-edge truth. It is a blessing from God and a benefit of His grace, but it's a curse when it's claimed as part of your own plan. Beware of rejecting being subordinate to no one. It's a sign of pride, which is the beginning of all sin, both in heaven and in the Garden of Eden.
            Look for a good church where the pastor teaches the Scriptures in an expository way, verse by verse. Share your talents, get involved and serve. Don't get surprised by Matthew 27:3.
            Don't get pissed at me. Pray for me and consider what I say with a humble heart. Make this a subject for study with prayer and sincerity.
            Be blessed.

          • petroskhan

            First let me address the part of your post that jumps out at me, which is near the end: "Don't get pissed at me. Pray for me and consider what I say with a humble heart." I do hope I've posted nothing which leads you to think that. I'm not at all upset with anything you've written. As for your request that I pray for you, of course I will. May you, as well, be blessed.

            Now then…

            "But we recognize that, also as an excuse for going solo as renegades not submitting to accountability and pocketing what is God's and not sharing your gifts." I'm assuming here you're talking about tithes? Taken care of. At the beginning of our separation from the church to which we all belonged, we discussed how we would regulate our tithes, and insure that that Biblical directive was followed. Each of us takes an appropriate portion of incomes and gives to a variety of charitable organizations, ministerial programs, etc. No one is pocketing what is rightfully God's. We're on top of that.

            "You keep harping on the purity of doctrine, but you are violating the Lord's design for the Church to satisfy some hang up you have." I don't think that people meeting regularly to study the word of God is violating anything in the Bible. How many does it take to make a "church"? I do believe that "where two or more are gathered" is good enough, isn't it? We've got more than that, so I think we're safe on that one. And it's not "some hang up" that I have (man, did I give that impression? If so, sorry!), it's more of a frustration that so many churches have strayed from what is clearly written in the Bible, and chosen to follow false teachings and man-made traditions. Were I/we to find a church which adheres to the Bible, we would gladly attend.

            As for being subordinate to anyone, well, God has that covered. He's the Boss, and I will follow Him. Where He leads me (us, actually) is the path that will be followed. I do agree that pride is a path to sin, and I make sure to watch my own behavior for that.

            I do greatly appreciate your input and concerns. I will even pass along your posts to our group next meeting. You've got some good advice in them, and a fresh viewpoint is always interesting.

            Thank you, and God Bless.

          • Mex Seiko

            As a last point I just wish to remind you that most "Christian" fringe cults like JWs and Mormon started this way. Precisely, Joe Smith's contention was that the church had gone bad and he's job was to restore the church. Also, you are still failing to deal with the Scripture I quoted to you which clearly show a structured organized church. Even further, up in heaven there's a hierarchy with various layers from the angelic host to the throne of God. God is about order, structure, and organization. Skipping over verses that argue against you is an indicator that perhaps you should pay attention to.
            There are a lot of denominations out there. I've been in 4 through my Christian life. I had to revise that number from 3 to include Catholicism from which I got saved 29 years ago. I hardly considered it Christian but it did begin as such.
            My point to begin with, was the fragmentation of the church renders it ineffective.
            You do know that Christians kneeled to pray for victory on both sides of the Civil War. Today half of American Christians, perhaps the same number that supported slavery, support abortion and other moral issues that go against our values, just because they prefer a political party? Do you realize that the Democrat party caters to many groups, but Christians is not one of them?
            That's because we're fragmented. We may be the body of Christ but head, arms, legs, are connected to each other. We may love Christ, but it looks like we hate each other. Our testimony is built in our love for each other and our neighbor. But we lack power of influence. Even Muslims are gaining in influence faster than we.
            Our government dictates in whose name we pray. Last year Ravi Zacarias obliged the president leaving out His Name on the Day of Prayer. Then, he called "asses" to those who called him out on it. This is the state of the church in America today and any of us are seeking comfort and safety in own living rooms.

          • petroskhan

            I understand what you're saying, and in large part I do agree with you.

            But it is impossible (for me) to belong to any church that is not following the Bible as closely as humanly possible. I have yet to find a church that has not made some sort of major concessions regarding faith in order to accommodate the earthly desires of its members.

            Were I to find a church which has not turned its back on the Scriptures, I would be happy to become a member. As of yet, I have not found one that isn't lacking in some major regard. I therefore cannot join any church, as to do so would be to compromise on my beliefs, and to tacitly agree that traditions of men superseded the expressed commands of God.

            As for the Scripture you cited, showing "a structured, organized church", I do agree that at least one of the verses you cited does seem to apply to organized churches, but it by no means commands one to participate. I have to find any verse which does. If you are aware of any verse which clearly dictates that joining, or taking part in, an "organized church" is a requirement, I would be most open to learning about it.

            As it stands, I see nothing wrong with a few people gathering to honor, worship and study the Word of God. All who correctly honor and worship God are part of His "church", part of the body of Christ. No building needed, no minimum group size required…we worship as we are best able, without having to take part in practices against which the Bible is most clear.

            It is deplorable that there is so much fragmentation among believers, but whose fault is that? Too many people want to "interpret" what they read, to have it fit some preconceived notion of what they want it so say, and this practice has led far too many astray. But even amidst this division, there are core values that those who would call them Christians should hold as paramount, not political/earthly associations. The fault lies with those who seek to follow their own desires, instead of following the will of God.

            For my part, I will follow Him, and do my best to help others find the true path.

          • Mex Seiko

            Please forgive me, and I hope I'm mistaken, but you sound like a perfectionist, legalistic person that is convinced to do everything better than anyone and stand in judgment of the church of Jesus Chist.
            You will never find a perfect church because another human being already beat you to mess it up. But as you already know the Bible says something in the lines of while we were yet messed up, Christ died for us.

          • petroskhan

            "Please forgive me, and I hope I'm mistaken, but you sound like a
            perfectionist, legalistic person that is convinced to do everything
            better than anyone and stand in judgment of the church of Jesus Christ."

            No no no…not at all. I'm not a perfectionist in the LEAST. I understand, accept, and sympathize with the faults of others; it's willful disobedience of which I am intolerant. It's when people KNOW that what they do is wrong, but hold onto the wrong behavior out of stubbornness, pride or other human reasons.

            I do realize that a "perfect church" is an unattainable goal. Were I to start my own church, based entirely on my own understandings, it would not be perfect, since I'm not perfect.

            But stating that perfection is impossible is no reason tolerate gross dereliction of our responsibility to God. He wants us to read and study His Word, to be certain of our actions, and to "prove all things". This does allow flagrant disregard for His Law, or pagan practices. And most churches that I've seen seem to simply accept these things as though they are of no import. I disagree, based on reading the Bible, that to do such is tolerable. We are to have nothing to do those who seek to undermine or change the Laws of God.

            And don't forget, Christ died for us, true. He died so that those who do wrong, and repent of that wrongdoing, could be saved. Without repentance, without turning our backs on what we know is wrong, there is no forgiveness.

          • Mex Seiko

            I have attended, visited, and studied about several churches and I can't understand how you can't find a decent enough church to attend in service to God. There are many, many, many men that dedicate their lives to the gospel and the work of the Lord. They spend time and treasure going to seminars to finally commit to low paying jobs as pastors.
            You don't owe me any explanations, but since you posted your rejection of God's plan, I was moved to engage and there's something dark in your way of thinking.

          • petroskhan

            "you posted your rejection of God's plan" Excuse me? Could you quote for me "God's plan" and my "rejection" of that? Sort of lost on that one.

            And if you think "there's something dark in (my) way of thinking," I think you need to get know me better. I'm pretty light-hearted, laid back, and easy-going. I just take this subject as being one of great import; we are risking our shot at eternity with how we observe God's will.

            To tolerate and/or take part in paganism, and blatantly disregarding God's will (His "plan" if you will) is dangerous in the extreme, and not only can, but WILL remove one from the Book of Life. Are you willing to toss that chance away, just to be part of an established "organized" congregation?

            And more to the point, what is the difference, in God's eyes, if you could tell me, between what you apparently consider a "church", and the small gathering held each week in my home? I don't remember reading anywhere that the apostles built a single church. I do recall many passages where they wandered about, or held informal get-togethers to preach and study and learn.

            So, I would love to hear how I am rejecting God's will; what is so "dark" about my thinking, and what is so wrong with holding one's own Biblical study/discussion.

            Once again, thank you very much for your input, Mex. God Bless.

          • Mex Seiko

            Here's the concern: You're doing your own thing because you can't find good Christian church in the whole of the USA and then talk about paganism. This implies that in your mind all Christian churches are pagan and you gave up looking for a good Christian church. There's certainly something strange here.
            I already quoted Scripture to you that lays out a church hierarchy and diverse functions which denote a structure beyond the couch. You are taking a non apostolic stand regarding church, also known as the body of Christ. In your own mind you're justifying it to yourself and placing yourself in a superior plane over Apostles. Church attending predates Christianity. Jesus attended Synagogue. That's the origin of church buildings and gatherings. There are no priests any longer as Jesus is now our intercession to the Father. Since they were not accepted in synagogues any longer, the early church met at homes, and as they grew in numbers they began to meet at the feet of hills, at catacombs, and eventually at buildings that accommodated larger groups, and an ecclesiastical structure was formed as evident in Acts.
            Another concern is your faulty understanding of the doctrine of salvation where you believe in an heavenly eraser that can take your name from the Book if Life an of course, you will teach this false doctrine to those who follow you to your living room.
            I'm sure you're a great person, a man of conviction. But the mind is deceitful above all things and a bad conviction is still bad, and in matters of faith it's critical.
            I don't know you and I'm not here to prosecute you. I caution you. Really and and consider these things very seriously.
            God bless.

          • petroskhan

            A couple of points, Max.

            "You're doing your own thing because you can't find good Christian church in the whole of the USA and then talk about paganism."
            I never said I'd searched the whole of the USA; I'm sure that across the whole country there are a great many good, Bible-following churches. In my rather small city of 26,000 people there are four churches: One Seventh-Day Adventist church, a Catholic church, one Lutheran and one non-denominational Sunday-worship, christmas celebrating church. Which one would you pick? I've chosen none of them, for reasons I hope are obvious. The next closest city, roughly an hour away, with 55,000 people, has similar choices. Yes, I've looked.

            I also stated before, that should I at some point find a church that observes the Law, and does NOT partake of paganism, I would be most happy to join. It would be an enormous relief.

            "Another concern is your faulty understanding of the doctrine of
            salvation where you believe in an heavenly eraser that can take your
            name from the Book if Life an of course, you will teach this false
            doctrine to those who follow you to your living room." You seem to be saying that you think that someone's name can NOT be removed from the Book of Life; I hope that's not your true belief, because we are warned otherwise in the Bible. I would refer you to Psalms 69:28 and Revelation 3:5 which specifically mention this.

            "a bad conviction is still bad, and in matters of faith it's critical." I couldn't agree more, and our group uses only the Bible as our basis for matters of faith. If the Bible doesn't say it, I see no reason to believe it.

            I know you're not here to prosecute, and I'm not taking it that way. I do, sincerely, value everything you're telling me, and agree with you pretty completely. I'm just in a rather difficult situation, our group is, actually, but we're doing the best that we can. We do hope that we can find a "home" sometime soon, and believe that God will let us know. After all, "With God all things are possible", right?

          • Mex Seiko

            I don't see Christmas as a pagan celebration. Many legalistic Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate It for diverse reasons. I personally find Christmas a very joyous family time and I'm glad we (Christians) took the season away from the pagans. We eclipsed and basically drowned the pagan celebrations. But many would prefer to create the void again, which would open the calendar for every type of worldly feasts. In America already a celebration originating in Africa, under the guise of "culture" got in around the season. So, they're laying in wait of our removal.
            But just as I suspected. The only church with potential to be your home church has the "horrible" pagan tradition of celebrating the visitation of God on earth, the Birth of the Savior of our souls.
            I don't know where you're coming from, but I get the jibbies. And again, not knowing, what I read from you… Not good.
            Be well, my brother. I pray you find wisdom.

          • petroskhan

            I must disagree with you, Mex. Most firmly. Not because my opinion is different from yours, or for any personal reasons. I disagree with you because I stand with the Bible, and God, on this issue.

            "I don't see Christmas as a pagan celebration."

            Just to get the point clear, it doesn't matter if you see christmas as a pagan celebration or not. It is pagan. You even state that in your post where you state "I'm glad we (Christians) took the season away from pagans." So, you acknowledge that it IS pagan. And be certain of one thing, Mex…no one took anything away from anyone else. You've JOINED them. BIG difference. You are violating a direct command from God by partaking in a pagan practice, attempting to justify it by tarting it up, and trying to call it by a different name. Some people tried that with a golden calf once…it didn't go well for them, did it?

            “Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition” (Mark 7:9).
            Isn't that what your doing, by "taking the season away from the pagans"?

            "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (I John 2:15).
            Since it’s easy to see from its pagan origins that Christmas has nothing to do with God, or Christ, and is clearly of the world (and the pagan world at that!), what does that say about those who know its origin, and insist on partaking of this pagan festival?

            "…. have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them…." (Eph. 5:11).
            Are you reproving, or approving, of the "works of darkness" when you adopt a known pagan festival?

            II Cor. 6:17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate”, says the Lord, “and do not touch that which is unclean, and I will welcome you.”
            How can we claim to “be separate” if we are following the dictates and traditions of the Catholic church, and following the herd by putting up trees, exchanging gifts, and having Christmas parties, knowing all the while that we are following a pagan tradition, simply because it's "fun"?

            ". . . Learn not the way of the heathen,. . . For the customs of the people are vain- for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not… But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities" (Jer. 10:2-4, 8).
            There’s the old saying that “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” As Christians, that particular trick may not work on us, but there is another, equally insidious, trick in his arsenal. This particular trick involves us accepting something that is not of God, and telling ourselves that we don’t mean any harm. "We’re not honoring pagan gods, Lord, honestly…we’re NOT. We’re just practicing the identical ceremonies, designed to honor a pagan deity who doesn’t even exist, and committing an affront to the glory of our Lord. But we don’t mean any harm by it. We’re just doing it because everyone else is doing it…oh, and the kids like it. Yes, that’s it…we’re doing it for the kids. We’re teaching them that, contrary to Your command, it IS okay to honor the traditions of men over the commandments of the One True God."

            Deut 12:30 "Beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?’ " Sounds sort of like "taking the season away from the pagans" doesn't it?

            Deut 12:32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it." God has given us festivals and Holy Days to observe, along with His Sabbath. We don't have the authority to "take the season" or any other excuse, Mex. God told us "NO" and that is it.

            And Mex…in regards to this comment:
            "The only church with potential to be your home church has the "horrible" pagan tradition of celebrating the visitation of God on earth, the Birth of the Savior of our souls. " Yes, it IS horrible. It's pagan, and as you can see from the Scriptures I've cited, God has a pretty dim view of that. Why do you disagree with God, and what justification will you use when have to account for that?

            "Be well, my brother. I pray you find wisdom." Back at you, Mex.

          • Mex Seiko

            Wow, You really showed me, didn't you? You straightened me out. You schooled me,
            I can almost hear your thoughts while you're angrily going through the pages of the Holy Scriptures.
            You've said more with your very last statement than with all your postings and Scripture quotes.
            So, I've said all I have to say.

            My prayers are with you and your family.

          • petroskhan

            "I can almost hear your thoughts while you're angrily going through the pages of the Holy Scriptures."

            "…angrily.." Who's angry? Why on earth would I be angry? You're giving me your thoughts, I'm giving you mine. I see no reason or justification for anger. If my words have somehow conveyed that, I should be more careful in the future, I suppose…I would appreciate it if you could tell me which part sounded angry, though.

            And "You've said more with your very last statement than with all your postings and Scripture quotes." Umm…my last statement of "Back at you"? I'm wishing you to be well and find wisdom, just as you did me. You take issue with that? You don't want to be well or find wisdom? I sure do.

            I don't understand you, Mex.

            You try to give me some information, and I thank you for it.
            I try to give you some information, and you get offended and sarcastic.

            You wish me well, I express thanks for the wish.
            I return the wish, you act insulted.

            I think you need to relax, and stop looking for what's not there. Just a suggestion based on an observation…don't get angry again, okay?

          • Mex Seiko

            It could be cultural, but "Back at you" doesn't sound too polite to me. But it doesn't matter. I'll take it as reciprocal, I guess especially the part about wisdom.
            To conclude, Christians have celebrated Christmas for many, many years. No Christian worshipping and commemorating the birth of our Savior has any thought or intentions of paganism in mind. The Bible doesn't teach or ordain to celebrate Christmas, but it doesn't make any sense to see it as pagan. Jesus gave the keys of heaven to the church saying whatever the church binds on earth shall be bound in heaven, and looses on earth, loosen in heaven. The church bound and drown a big pagan celebration and converted it into a tradition dedicated to God, the Savior.
            Your random quoting of Scripture, mostly of OT is like searching for bits and peaces to argue in hind sight and it's legalistic, negating the freedom and peace The Lord Jesus sacrificed to give us. Paul explains it in a way that denotes being in bondage. The Lord expresses His heart about following religion clearly in Isaiah 1. Check it out. Also, shunning your brothers in Jesus (if you are in Jesus and if we are your brothers) is not of Jesus. The Lord said that people know that we are His when they see our love for one another.
            I don't know what Christian denomination you follow. I hope you're not of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses, because they are deceived into thinking they are Christian and many may have been taught that Christianity is pagan, which is actually contradictory. The Bible has proven the JW as false as the have pronounced prophesies that have not been fulfilled. They've adjusted their prophesies over and over and still failed. The JW's Jesus is a created being which demotes Him to a mere angel. Th is not Christian.
            Christmas is one of the seasons where a lot of people are born again because they hear the gospel most frequently, which makes me suspect that Satan and those in his grip must hate it very much.
            Some Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas, which is strange, because the do celebrate Hanukah, which is not in the Bible either. But that doesn't bother me. If there's one thing more beautiful than a Christian, that'll be a Christian Jew. Jesus' return is conditioned to the national acknowledging of Jesus as God. Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of that day, rather than a prophesy of Jesus' ministry.
            I pray you find peace in the truth and increase in knowledge of the Savior.

          • petroskhan

            Yes, Mex, it was intended to be polite and sincere, and I do apologize if some sort of slight was inferred from "Back at you". But at least you seem to willing to allow for miscommunication. I appreciate that.

            As for:
            "Your random quoting of Scripture, mostly of OT is like searching for
            bits and peaces to argue in hind sight and it's legalistic, negating the
            freedom and peace The Lord Jesus sacrificed to give us."

            I must take exception here. "Random quoting"? Really? If I quote direct, specific orders from God, it's "random"? What about the Ten Commandments? Are those "random"?

            Please explain, and I'm being very serious and sincere here, how is showing clear verses ordering God's children to NOT copy paganism "random"?

            And where, in the Bible, do you find "freedom" to worship God as YOU see fit? I've quoted you some verses that are quite specific, and show that God tells us how to worship Him, NOT the other way around. We don't get to choose…we get to follow His rules, or break them, not invent our own.

            As for my denomination, I have none. I read and study the Bible, and attempt to follow its guidelines to the best of knowledge and ability. I am certainly NOT a JW. They, and Mormons and Catholics all give me the willies. Any person or organization that claims to follow the Bible, then heads off making up their own rules (or even whole books), is clearly lost, and need of help.

            As for xmas, Mex…do some research. Re-read those "random" quotes I gave you, do some checking on the internet, and really dig into whether or not it's really okay for a Christian to forge his own path to worshiping God. You might be surprised.

            Peace and wisdom, brother.

          • Mex Seiko

            Hi Bro;

            Your approach to our faith is legalistic with a holier than thou attitude. That is what drives to separate yourself from the "filthy pagan brothers in Christ." This is a Pharisaic mentality in Christianity. It's compared to Nicolaitans in various portions of Scripture. There was a big problem in the early church with the "Judaisers" which caused many discussions among them. Judaisers intended to force the church to follow the Mosaic law including requiring circumcision to sign up with the church.
            The Pentecostal branch of Christianity which splintered off from the Methodist denomination is very legalistic and some of those churches teach that we can loose our salvation by sinning. This doctrine has had the effect on many to consider themselves lost and given up the faith or live in defeat and perennial guilt. This doctrine denies the power and permanence of the salvation of Jesus Christ.
            Christianity ha adopted many doctrines over centuries. There are many differences of opinion on eschatology and various other subjects that don't have a great impact, but those doctrines that make a brother fall from the faith are serious. Whether one celebrates Christmas or not is with the conscience. What is not of faith is sin.
            What our believes lead us in service to God and the gospel will affect our rewards at our trial before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This judgment does not review our state at salvation which has been settled forever, but our works and fruit as Christians on earth.
            God bless.

          • petroskhan

            Mex,

            I appreciate and understand your viewpoint on this matter. I do not, however, agree with it, nor do I have any evidence that it is supportable by Scripture.

            I have cited clear and direct passages from Scripture which emphatically state that we are to have nothing to do with paganism, and to not even inquire after it.

            I have cited passages that directly state that God tells us how to worship Him, and that we are not to add to the Holy Days He has given us.

            It is upon the clear and direct words of the Bible that I make my stand. I am not trying to convince you of anything, nor am I trying to "win" some sort of argument, contest, whatnot. That's not my job, either as a vocation or a Christian. I am simply pointing out what the Bible has clearly stated; I am simply passing along information which could potentially be of use and/or interest.
            And out of curiosity, what is it, exactly, that you know of the Nicolaitans that the Bible doesn't tell us, upon which you base your claim that my beliefs (about which you know very little, by the way) resemble theirs?
            Also, could you let me know whom it is you're quoting with "filthy pagan brothers in Christ"? I've never used that phrase, nor do I think of anyone in that way.

            What you choose to do with it is entirely up to you. How you choose to pursue your faith is up to you.

            How God will view it is up to Him. It is my personal belief that He has given us instructions for a reason. It is our duty to follow His commands, to do as He bids us, not invent our own ways. On that, the Bible is clear, and I will stand by what the Bible says.

            As I said before, I wish you well. The best, in fact. May God's Wisdom fill you, and guide you.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton

          John 20:23 "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

          Matthew 16:18 "I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven; whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven."

          • petroskhan

            I think a large part of peoples' misunderstanding of my stance stems from an improper understanding of the terms involved.

            The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting.

      • Winston

        Perhaps you should be an Acts 17:11 believer and really study God's Word on this, because ever since the end of the first century church and into the second century, man took control of "Christ's Church" and made it into his own. The Church has been fragmented by man-made dogmatic doctrine and so divided into sectarianism that its more religious humanism than following "the Way of Jesus". Much of "church" today is not found in the Scriptures but more of "men doing right in their own eyes, which leads to (spiritual) destruction". Most churches today are cleric led and not laity led (e.g., Bishop/Elder, Deacon…men of upright standing and husband of one wife…and not one at a time).

        • Mex Seiko

          Perhaps you should try it. I quoted verses that show organized, structured church body and you keep going on your own rant without even acknowledging it. Instead of speaking from Scripture you're quoting history. We do not have to compromise in Apostasy. All I suggest is to unite on the gospel for the good of the nation an the gospel itself. It's getting increasingly hard to b a Christian in the freest country on earth and our society is decaying morally and spiritually. We are in the spiritually side of it.
          The fragmentation of the church is Satanic and cannot be good at all. I can't imagine what benefit you draw from it other than justifying staying home and having no accountability and saving 10 percent of income while hating fellow Christians.
          The only reason I would considered not joining a church is if I considered it to be perfect. It'd be best to keep it that way.

          • Jeff Dixon

            You will never have to worry about that.

      • Robert30

        Abortion is a right of every female on this earth. NO woman should ever be forced to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.

        • Mex Seiko

          Right should never be in the same sentence with killing. The word abortion is not defined by destruction of life. It's not a mission, endeavor, or task what's being ended. Ending life is called killing. Using latex gloves and a scalpel doesn't change the result.
          The Supreme Court is not so supreme. Abortion has been constitutionalized by a simple play in words. There's no explicit right to abortion, the Super morons opted for a decision to hide the killing of the fruit of the womb, which is a human being, under the cover of the rights to privacy. Since then, our society has had the need to redefine what's a human being, at what point in our development we become human, what do we call ourself while we're "not human." But we have found ourselves stretching our private right to killing of our own flesh and blood beyond our own definitions in order to justify killing the baby days before its term in the womb. At times, life is so powerful that escapes our attempted murder and still manage to breath outside the same air we enjoy. So, we need more legislation and regulation and definitions to continue justifying death beyond the womb and give it a name for the books.
          In this sense, we're no difference than some 3rd World countries where it's perfectly legal to marry a 14 year old, or for a parent to kill the same 14 year old for being disobedient, or to send her to jail for six months because she accidentally sat on a certain book.
          The fact that we may've messed up and legalized a horrendous act against our own kind doesn't make it moral or even sensible.
          Sexual intercourse is a real right to privacy issue. I would say drinking soda should be as personal a choice as having sex. In NY we're starting to regulate the size of the soda containers to prevent getting fat. What would be the milestone of abortion number till we start taking serious look at the cause of abortion, which is unwanted pregnancies, which in turn is caused by irresponsible sex?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton

            Just counterexample: it is the right of a homeowner to defend his family by killing a home invader.

          • Mex Seiko

            The right to self-defense is not strictly a right to kill but that it will allow the killing of a human being who poses a risk to another life. Abortion is a stretch of the right to privacy to specifically terminate a totally harmless life.

        • Esther

          No one should be allowed to kill on the public dime.

          • Robert30

            Well now. We would be more than happy to do your abortion gratis! Just so we can ensure you will not be able to propagate. We should also snip your spermatic ducts whilst we are at it. Very few men become pregnant and you will just be another one.
            Do you often suffer with delusional identifications?

  • Evermyrtle

    It is a race between the disinterested and those who not will put out anything toward their faith. Then there are those who are afraid of hurting someone's feelings, they had rather hurt the feelings of the LORD. One very interested point, which one has the power to help us and will help us and those who do not care what we do nor how we fare.. Besides that there is only one that can give you a home in Heaven or in "GLORY LAND" When you get that figured, you will know who you should not risk "hurting their feelings!"

  • John J Flanagan

    There is nothing unusual about this report. Jesus did not tell His followers that the world would open its' arms to the gospel. In fact, He exclaimed in many verses that most people would be in opposition to it. If you are a Bible believing, God loving Christian, who lives in the fear and reverence of Our Lord, trusts in His grace and mercy, is grateful for His sacrifice on the cross, and is looking forward to someday being with Jesus and the saints in glory, then look around. You do not need a survey or poll to see the expressions of apathy, indifference, or downright hostility evident among many of our neighbors, friends, co-workers, relatives, among academics and media types, who do not have the Lord in their lives and do not care one way or the other about their sins, their souls, their eternal destiny. Those who have been given the light by the grace of God need to remember this and pray for those who are yet to be saved.

  • maryhutto

    Jesus did not die so that you could have a religion: He died so you could have a personal relation with Him. This study does not take this into consideration. I agree with petroshan. I used to belong to a main-stream church but left because of the hypocracy and the condemnation that comes from the "works" mentality. I now go to a church that stresses God's grace and has no affiliation with any organized religion. I'm finally at peace with my God and without all that condemnation!

    • petroskhan

      Glad you someplace you feel comfortable.

      • Winston

        In reality, "comfort" has nothing to do with the real Way of Jesus.

        • petroskhan

          True dat, but some people need to feel comfortable first, then dig deep to find if that comfort is based on truth or not. Spiritual growth is a process of varying speeds for different people. Feeling comfortable might be a necessary start for some; who am I to question the faith of another? A start along the path is a start…I won't criticize without knowing far more than I do now.

          • Esther

            Petroskhan said, "… who am I to question the faith of another? " lol Petros!!! I think this one sentence says it all!!! I ask you again, why should any Saint want to answer ANY of your ridiculous inquiries about our faith? We respond to the spirit AND yours is a hypocrite we can see from miles away. Don't you get it?

          • petroskhan

            Esther, I have tried to show the utmost respect for you as a person, yet at every opportunity, you seek to do the opposite.

            Allow me to explain the comment you've quoted, and expand a bit, since it seems to be in order. (By the way, no hard feelings, I know you are quite…shall we say, fervent?)

            When I said I was not one to question anyone's faith, I meant exactly that. I do not questions anyone's faith, including yours. And by "faith", I mean exactly that…your faith. The strength of your conviction, your dedication and passion. I may disagree with some of the beliefs you have, and would like to get some answers regarding those questions, or even discuss them to our mutual benefit…but I have no questions regarding your FAITH, as that is something about which I can know nothing. No matter what you or I say, we can not ever know anything about the strength of the others conviction and passion. About the others FAITH.

            I do so hope that helps. And like I said…no hard feelings, and no ill will from this end. God Bless, Esther. :D

          • Esther

            I know what I read Petros, so forget trying to spin your way out of it. No it does not "help.", although I know you mean well. You have defamed the Saints time and time again. And I will point that out. You can call what you said, what you may, but you never think of the ramifications. If you knew how Saints know you would not be so callous.

          • petroskhan

            Not trying (or needing) to "spin" anything.

            And if you would be so kind, would you tell me how I have "defamed" members of your religion? What have said that is untrue? I would like for you to answer that, especially since you said that you would "point that out."

            Also, I challenge you to show/quote any time that I have been callous. I could quote several times that you have insulted me directly and personally, but I will not (and do not) hold that against you to any degree. I am still open to the idea of civil discourse with you, and wish to do so with all politeness.

          • petroskhan

            Oh, I'm sorry, I apparently forgot to answer your question: "I ask you again, why should any Saint want to answer ANY of your ridiculous inquiries about our faith?"

            Well, there are several reasons I can think of, but I will give you three, in ascending order of importance, if that is agreeable to you.

            1 – Common politeness. When someone asks a question, it's considered polite to respond with an answer, not to dissemble, evade or insult. Not a compelling reason to answer questions, perhaps, but a good one.

            2 – Because it would demonstrate to me and others that you do, in fact, HAVE the answers. Constantly avoiding answering basic questions regarding one's faith is, from the point of view of the one doing the asking, is indicative of you not actually having the answers, or being unwilling to provide them. I would like to note that I am not saying that you don't have the answers, or are unwilling to give them. What I'm saying is that that is the impression that this action and attitude conveys. It really does negatively impact the image of those of your religion when every single member of your faith decides to avoid answering ANY questions at all, or to provide answers to what, to those outside your faith, see as contradictions.

            3 – Because the Bible tells you to do so, as I have pointed out in the past.
            We are to do this, as stated in 1 Peter 3:15 is quite clear on this matter:
            "But sanctify the Messiah as Sovereign in your hearts, and always be ready to give an answer to everyone asking you a reason concerning the hope of your faith, with meekness and fear." If LDS's do regard the Bible as God's word, then you should heed the directives given therein, and this is, in fact, one of them.

            I do so hope I have answered your question to your satisfaction. As always, should you require any further information, do not hesitate to ask.

            God Bless.

          • Esther

            1 Peter 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your HEARTS: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

            Henry Eyring once famously said, "You don't have to believe anything that is not true."

            I do not believe it is possible to have a civil conversation with you unless I accept your premise absolutely. But I believe your premise is incomplete. It is not complete until you put it together with Brother Eyring's statement, for example, and consider the consequences. The Saints believe in personal revelation. You do not. So the Saints have this different way of knowing. Notice I capitalized HEARTS. Why do you think I did that? (I am not telling you that answer.) Now I know, tomorrow, when no one is there to rebut your statement, you will decry, perhaps inadvertently, or at least seemingly so, what you believe is our fallacy again, from what I just told you. I have put myself on the line many times in The Forum to then reap that very same result.

          • petroskhan

            "I do not believe it is possible to have a civil conversation with you unless I accept your premise absolutely. But I believe your premise is incomplete. It is not complete until you put it together with Brother Eyring's statement."

            And there we have, in the clearest terms possible, the very root of your problem, Esther. I quote you the Bible, the basis for all my beliefs, and you tell me it's not complete until I put it together with some mortal man's words? Do you even realize what you're saying?

            And once again, no surprise, you have avoided answering any questions put to you, choosing instead to dissemble and evade.

            I am also noting that again, you have chosen to respond to politeness with a most unpleasant and condescending tone. I regret deeply having to say this, but it is becoming quite clear to me that you, Esther, are not a nice person. You proclaim how great your religion is, yet insult anyone who has simple, foundational questions regarding that religion. You look down your nose at anyone who doesn't agree with you, and tell yourself that you're so much better than everyone else, because YOU are keyed into some ultimate truth, based on this so-called "personal revelation", which in Esther-speak means "Either you agree with me, or you're WRONG." You have, in every exchange, belittled my faith, yet you know nothing of it, or me. I am forced to wonder why there is all this hostility in someone who claims to follow in Christs' footsteps. I see nothing in Scripture which supports your attitude; quite the opposite.

            Esther, the Book of Mormon is wrong. Plain and simple. It contradicts both the Bible and history, and even itself. It is NOT of God. There is no other way to say it. Until and unless someone of your religion demonstrates a willingness to discuss these obvious and glaring inconsistencies, my opinion (based on the Bible) will not change. It CAN'T change. How can you change anyone's opinion, or reach out to people, when you not only refuse to discuss anything, but actively insult the one asking the questions?

            Your attitude, Esther (indeed, that of every Mormon on this site thus far), has been one of evasive, condescending and hostile avoidance of open, honest discussion of the truth. You may think you're in the right, but I defy you and any other member of your religion PROVE that you're right. I have the Bible on my side, and will refer to it, and it alone, to guide me. My prayers and MY relationship with God have shown me that it is true and correct; they have also shown me that the Book of Mormon has far too many errors and contradictions to be viewed as anything but the work of a man, and a flawed man at that.

            Therefore, to all followers of Joseph Smith, I have this one simple position, from which I will never waver: Show me where I'm mistaken, or admit that you can't. I, of course, will do the same with any questions concerning my stand on issues.

            With all love and respect, and nothing but the sincerest wishes for your happiness.

            God Bless, Esther.

          • Esther

            Either you, Petroskhan and your contradictory bible, or Henry Eyring and Joseph Smith who recognized those contradictions, I have thought long and hard about it and chose the latter. Sorry.

          • petroskhan

            I am sorry, as well, that you have chosen to follow a false prophet, instead of the True Gospel.

            The Bible is not contradictory, Esther, as you well know. The Book of Mormon, however, contradicts the Bible, it contradicts history, it even contradicts itself! I can show you all of these contradictions, many samples of each kind. Can YOU show me the alleged contradictions of the Bible?

            And if the Bible is contradictory, as you (falsely) claim, then it could not be trusted. One error is enough to prove that it can be suspect; this would bring into doubt the entirety of the Book, would it not? So, you would have to toss the whole thing out, because it would be unreliable. There goes your entire basis for Christianity, out the window.

            There may be passages which we don't understand, or must take into their historical/cultural contexts, but there are no contradictions. The Book of Mormon, however, is a veritable gold mine of fallacies, inaccuracies, and contradictions. Joseph Smith claimed it to be inspired by God, yet it is clear and irrefutable contradiction to what is provably the word of God. How can two books, inspired by the same All-knowing, All-powerful God, contradict each other?

            In fact, Esther, I must actually question whether or not you are even a Mormon. Not only is your behavior and tone out of line with that I have seen in every other Mormon I've dealt with, but your stance on issues is radically different from that of the Mormon church in general. For example, your denigration of the Bible is MOST contrary to the stance of every other Mormon I've encountered, and even against the stated position on the Mormon website (mormon.org), and the Book of Mormon itself. Two quotes to substantiate my statement, from Mormon sources:

            1 – Book of Mormon Chapter 7:
            " 8 Therefore repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and lay hold upon the agospel of Christ, which shall be set before you, not only in this record but also in the record which shall come unto the Gentiles bfrom the Jews, which record shall come from the Gentiles cunto you."

            All Mormon sources agree this is a reference to the Bible.

            2 – From the Mormon website:
            "Some people think that because we read the Book of Mormon, we don't read the Bible. That's just not true. It's like saying that we don't eat oranges because we eat apples. Both are good fruit! The Book of Mormon is not a replacement for the Bible."

            And so, Esther, I must, unless you can show me otherwise, conclude that you are not actually a Mormon, but simply someone making claims that your behavior and stated beliefs demonstrate to be untrue. Your disregard for simple politeness and Christian behavior, your refusal to follow the Bible's admonition to answer questions regarding the basis of your faith, and your cavalier disrespect for the Bible are all clear evidence that you can be neither Christian nor Mormon.

            I mean this all with the kindest of intentions, Esther, and mean no disrespect or insult. I am simply stating that which the evidence has shown me, and I do believe I have stated in terms which are not in any way disrespectful. If I have inadvertently phrased any of this in a manner which you find offensive, please consider any due apologies extended. I do, however, stand by the factual statements presented, and do not have any regrets over them. It is the same as if I continually lied to someone, and he called me a liar. It would be foolish of me to feel insulted or offended by such a clear observation of my behavior. In that same light, Esther, I have come the above-stated inescapable conclusion. You are not a Christian/Mormon, regardless of your claims to the contrary. You do not follow the teachings of the Bible. You do not care about what it says, and insult the Bible itself. This is not the behavior of a Christian, nor is it the position of the Mormon church; ergo, you are neither.

            I am, of course, open to demonstrations/proof of the opposite.

            God Bless, and have a nice day.

          • Esther

            Your ad ho·mi·nem attacks, while subtle, again are noted here.

          • petroskhan

            Name one…just one, is all. I have not insulted you in the slightest, nor can you prove or show otherwise, Esther.

          • Esther

            Try reading your own posts.

          • petroskhan

            Try answering questions once in awhile.

          • Esther

            Petros said: "The Bible is not contradictory, Esther, as you well know." This is a lie. Why do you do it?

          • petroskhan

            "This is a lie. Why do you do it?"

            Have you stopped shoplifting yet?

          • Esther

            "Thou shalt not bear false witness." QED, if you don't know, that is proof, to your lack of attention to executing God's word. There is some proof for you!!! BTW, is that what you have to resort to, to accuse people of shoplifting?

          • petroskhan

            That's the message you got from that? That I'm accusing you of shoplifting? Wow…okay, I'll explain it, though having to do so it lowers my estimation of your abilities to carry on this discussion.

            You accused me of lying; I have not lied, and I defy you to show otherwise. Asking me why I'm lying (when you know I haven't) is the same as me asking you if you've stopped shoplifting (when I know that you don't).

            Got it now? Please say "yes"…

          • Esther

            You are so convoluted you don't know what is up. And no matter what I say you will make it whatever suits your best face forward no matter what it does to me. What I get is that we play your stupid game while you take the role as the rule maker. No surprise there. I am sure that's how you run your bible study, and YOU have the nerve to criticize Joseph Smith. LOL

          • petroskhan

            Esther, perhaps what's causing you to view this exchange as "convoluted" is the dazzling array of gymnastics you are going through in order avoid answering simple questions put to you in regards to your faith and your statements?

            You see, it's very simple…a question is asked…an answer is given. Simple, two-step process. Nothing fancy, nothing complex. Just good ol' conversation patterns established way back when there was just Adam and Eve.

            I'm not "the rule maker", dear. I'm following the normal rules that civilized people follow when having a discussion. I'm trying to stick to the topic, and hoping desperately that you can do the same. Thus far, my hopes have been met with disappointment in your ability to simply answer questions…why is this so hard for you, anyway?

            As for criticizing Joseph Smith, yes, I do. He was, as I have clearly shown beyond any doubt, a false prophet and a liar. Refute what I've proven, or admit you can't. Simple, right? Nothing convoluted.

            Prove me wrong with facts, or prove you're wrong by evading the issue yet again.

          • Esther

            I do not and never have shop-lifted. You are defaming me. That is a criminal thing to do.

          • Robert30

            Why don't you just try reading something logical.

          • Esther

            lol.
            I am certified logical.
            What is your field of expertise?

          • petroskhan

            "Certified logical"? By whom? There is actually some Board, or Agency, Organization, etc. that "certifies" people as logical? WOW

          • Esther

            YOU would love to know that so you could lambast that, idiot. 'Am not about to tell you.

          • petroskhan

            Of course not. Because you can't. Typical.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Right petroskan, go to http://www.certifiable.com/logical. I believe her name is on the list. My goodness, I am laughing so hard, I can hardly get this typed.

          • petroskhan

            Okay, you got me…I actually tried to head to that. LOL Good one!

          • Joe Anzilotti

            You are certifiable alright–the logical part, I am not certain.

          • petroskhan

            I wasn't going to go there, but…

          • Joe Anzilotti

            BTW Esther, you do not need a "field of expertise" to understand the Bible. I will just leave it there for you; except to mention that "logic" would help you see that–seeing you are certifiable (or possibly already "certified") in that category.

          • Esther

            Joe Anzilotti: People like you will always be satisfied with just what you can get away with, by crushing others, edification is not in your Calvinist vocabulary. And you will never really understand proof or logic as exemplified by your childish ambition in your play on the word to further diminish the heights I obtained legitimately which you will never see. Your attempts are once again noted.

          • petroskhan

            You know, for someone who tosses out the word "proof" so much, you do seem allergic to actually providing any of your own. You claim that others are not providing any proof, while steadfastly refusing to give any proof to validate your own claims.

            And really…"diminish the heights I obtained legitimately which you will never see"? First off, no one reading your posts would doubt that you're high…really.

            Secondly, making empty claims to some sort of grandiose academic achievement, while demonstrating nothing more than, generously, an 8th grade ability to write and debate, is amusing to say the least.

            Perhaps you should quite while you're…hmm…maybe just quit.

            Either that, or crack open a book, and find out what it means to actually refute what someone has said. Find out what the word "proof" means to us adults. Then maybe you can rejoin the conversation.

            Oh, my challenge still stands unanswered, dear. Prove anything I've posted is a lie, or prove anything I've stated regarding Mormonism is untrue. Failure to do either will be taken henceforth as proof that you agree with me.

          • Esther

            I should NEVER had had to mention it more than once Petroskhan. BECAUSE, you have known all along that I subscribe to Jeff Dixon's concept that the scriptures, the only ones of which you study, are replete with contradiction. Therefore, all applied logic to the book is in question.

          • petroskhan

            Prove it.

          • Esther

            Jeff has already. Many times. I do not need to reinvent the wheel.

          • petroskhan

            Okay, bimbo, here's where you've led this discussion.

            You are mentally deficient. I won't bother asking you to answer questions, since you're obviously mentally unequipped to do so.

            You are a liar. You're not a Mormon, as you've called Joseph Smith a liar. You're not a Christian, as no Christian would disrespect the Bible as you've done.

            You have roughly the education of a junior high dropout. My guess is somewhere around 7th or 8th grade, but then, I'm generous.

            Lastly, I've given you more opportunities than anyone deserves, so here's what you've demonstrated to me:

            You agree with me that Joseph Smith was a fraud, a liar, and a phony.
            You agree with me that the Book of Mormon is a collection of nonsense, no more important that a wad of used toilet paper.
            You agree with me that Mormonism is a lie, and contradicts the Bible, history, biology, and even itself.
            You agree that all of this is correct, proven, and irrefutable.

            Thank you for assisting me in demonstrating that Mormonism is a lie, the Book of Mormon the work of Satan, and most of all, thank you very, very much for agreeing with me.

          • Esther

            PETROSKHAN IS A BUM

          • petroskhan

            Well, that certainly refutes every point I've made, doesn't it? How you have succinctly addressed every point I've raised, countered every argument, nullified every rational, logical issue I've presented…and all with only FOUR WORDS!

            My goodness…such economy and erudition!

          • Esther

            Bye Bye

          • petroskhan

            Awesome…down to TWO WORDS now!

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Don't go away mad. You do need some rest. You are in a corner. Go review Mormon policy on how to proceed.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Calumniation is not a family value Esther.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            And that. really, seems to be ALL that you can do. Sad

          • Joe Anzilotti

            "Jeff has already." Please knock it off with this humor. It makes it difficult to concentrate. At least Jeff has not said that he is a Doc. Neither one of you are capable of proving anything, and nothing has been proven by the Atheist or the "Saint."

          • Jeff Dixon

            I have proven many points. And you have agreed with me in the past. So, stop with the lying already. It is tiresome and besides your god says he does not like it.

          • Esther

            Jeff has already done the research.
            Here is one of many:

            Jeff Dixon • 7 days ago • parent−

            The bible has hundreds of contradictions. It is impossible to read the book and not see this very obvious fact. However, Christians go through mental gymnastics to try and explain away these contradictions. For example:How should adulterers be punished? According to Leviticus 20:10, they should be executed. However, according to John 8:3-8, they should not be punished. And let us dispense with the rational that Jesus came along later and changed the laws of the OT god. Jesus IS god, eternal and the creator, according to YOUR story. Therefore, he was around when the OT laws were created. In fact, he had to have created them.

          • petroskhan

            Answered, explained, and refuted.

            Try again, loser.

          • Esther

            You lose, on that note.

          • Esther

            LOL

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Let's us suppose Esther that you are a "doctor"–who really cares? Why should that make any difference whatsoever with regards to your or my relationship with God? Insofar as our relationship with God is purely, and only, based on Jesus' blood and His work on the cross for both of us. Your student loans have nothing to do with it or how much some University gulled you into forking over for this document.
            Furthermore, as Petroskhan, has already pointed out, if you possess any such document–you apparently learned very little acquiring it at any rate.

          • Esther

            You are such a hypocrite, it reeks to high heaven I am sure.

          • petroskhan

            Whereas you are a paragon of honesty and scruples, to be sure.

          • Esther

            I am

          • petroskhan

            I left out humility…that just oozes from every post of yours, doesn't it?

          • Esther

            Now, you claim one should not tell simple truths. You are a hypocrite. My parents would agree.

          • petroskhan

            What your parents would or would not agree with is completely irrelevant to this discussion. And I never said anything that would even remotely be construed as a directive to not tell the truth.

            Once again, show me I'm wrong in a single assertions I've made, or admit that you simply cannot compete in this discussion. Your continued avoidance of confronting the issues reeks of childish incompetence.

          • Esther

            My parents have everything to do with this discussion. They taught me the dangers of lying as you have continually done… but I notice you really hate it when someone accuses you. You don't even notice that you are the perpetrator, that you are the one of "childish incompetence" (your words), that you continue to cleverly distort your perverse view of my religion so as to make it grossly unpalatable to others while you claim you would never do anything to interfere with one's faith. Ha ha, Petroskhan you really think I don't notice your gross bigotry hidden in your extremely crafted ideas. You wrongly think you are talking to an idiot. My parents were not and neither am I.

          • petroskhan

            Name a single lie I've posted here. ONE.

          • Robert30

            Humility! That concept has yet to cross the mind of this fraud.

          • Esther

            I know that I don't cheat or lie like he does.

          • Esther

            Oh, I left out that I should just repress my self-respect to allow PETROSKHAN TO RUN ALL OVER ME… I CAN SEE WHERE YOU GUYS ARE GOING. GO AHEAD GATHER MORE MOSS PETROSKHAN, TAKE IT TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION … WITH EVERY POST YOU ARE MORE AND MORE CONVINCING ME OF THE VALIDITY OF THE SAINTS LED BY JOSEPH SMITH.

          • petroskhan

            Esther, dear…if you had a shred of self-respect you would ask more questions than you do regarding that charlatan Joseph Smith. I have clearly shown you where he was dead wrong. I have shown you where he lied. I have shown where his allegedly "inspired" Book is in contradiction not only with science and the Bible, but even itself.

            Self-respect is something for those who seek to better themselves, who seek to know more, and grow in faith and knowledge. You, Esther, are in a rut. You are content to wallow in the muck of self-delusion, following a blaspheming, delusional, false prophet, and accepting his inane scribblings without a shred of curiosity or self-respect.

            You want to take something to its "natural conclusion"? READ YOUR BIBLE. That would be a good start. Actually read that Book of Mormon, and ask some questions. Study what Joseph Smith and others said about themselves and God, and ask questions. You can't learn by meekly accepting what you're told, as though your head was so empty you're grateful to have it filled with ANYTHING, even that collection of self-contradicting lies.

            Joseph Smith was a liar. He was no prophet. The Book of Mormon is a collection of lies.

            I have proven my claims. Prove yours, or admit you can't.

          • Esther

            WRONG PETROSKHAN.

          • petroskhan

            PROVE IT.

          • Esther

            Let me be clear: I said: "I do not believe it is possible to have a civil conversation with you unless I accept your premise absolutely. But I believe your premise is incomplete. It is not complete until you put it together with Brother Eyring's statement." Do you really expect me to believe the men who I do not know, who were Catholic church men, and who Luther, and YES, even Calvin, accepted…. Don't you see? Do you really think I don't know what happened in Europe that the Puritans were all excited to establish in America? Joseph Smith did more: No Joseph did not establish a theocracy, but he stopped the establishment of a theocracy, that you and others would like to see go forward as they are so innocuous. I have written a thesis on early American literature so stop treating me like an idiot. Let me put it to you simply: That is my belief because that is what I KNOW, when I put it all together that rings more true than your little gatherings at your house where you strictly read a biblical interpretation from God-knows-where, when I know that the most correct one is the King James Version, but is replete with contradiction, as Jeff Dixon has proved to you time and time again, and was even pointed out by Joseph Smith, YES, I SAID IT! JOSEPH SMITH POINTED OUT THE CONTRADICTIONS ALSO, and later, a warning was issued by an extremely highly regarded genius of the Saints, Henry Eyring, the physical chemist, close colleague of Einstein at Princeton (google it), who told his son: "You do not have to believe anything that is not true." All told Petros, you are disrespecting people, including me, who deserve respect for trying to do their best to enlighten your dark heart and mind.

          • petroskhan

            And yet you cannot point out any of these so-called contradictions of the Bible. I, on the other hand, have shown you many contradictions of the Book of Mormon, which you refuse to discuss or even acknowledge.

            "he stopped the establishment of a theocracy, that you and others would like to see go forward as though they – theocracies- are so innocuous." I've never said anything even remotely resembling that, as you well know. Show where I said that, or admit that you're a liar.

            "All told Petros, you are disrespecting people, including me, who deserve respect for trying to do their best to enlighten your dark heart and mind."
            And this attempt at enlightening my mind takes the form of insults, right? Your "doing your best" means that you refuse to answer any questions regarding the obvious inconsistencies of your Book of Mormon, right?

            "Dark heart and mind"? Really? Esther, if you are indeed a Mormon (which I doubt, due to your flagrant disregard for both Christian AND Mormon principles), then you are an enormous embarrassment to them. Your vitriolic posts, your hostility, and incessant insults are clear evidence of a person with a huge amount of spiritual growth yet undone.

            I will pray for you, Esther. I hope you learn to be more humble, and open to the truth, in good time.

            However, henceforth, either answer the questions/allegations put to you, or continue to provide evidence that you cannot. It's your choice, but I strongly advise you to think carefully.

          • Esther

            Why should I reinvent the wheel? You are not expected to do so.

          • petroskhan

            You, dear, are a fountain of the illogical and irrelevant.

            No one's asking you to re-invent anything. I'm asking you to answer appalling simple questions. Either you can, or you can't. Obviously, you can't.

          • Robert30

            You are wasting your time. This is one of the more myopic people here. It obviously does not understand the modern use of communication and is nothing more than a
            provocateur and a poor one at that.

          • petroskhan

            Yes, but you left out "entertaining".

          • Esther

            I am not dear to you anyway, but to my parents and my family only, so don't use these patronizing terms on me, they don't work. But this is just shorthand for you on this comment, because it is your usual method to patronize, then sting, like a scorpion. That's just what Jesus would do, your method you learned/teach in bible class? You know that is not the way of the Christ so you should stop being that way. The proof is found by re-reading your own posts. You know where they are. Again, who in their right mind would try to change your mind about a religion that you hate? What is crystal clear to me is the fact, at one point I thought you would understand that question, but I am beginning to experience serious doubt that you can.

          • petroskhan

            Well, since contradicting has become the thing to do here, Esther, allow me to do so once again.

            You are dear to me. Everyone is. I deeply value everyone on Earth, and hope for the salvation of all. Many will not succeed, but we are to try as hard as we can to reach as many as possible. Your fondness for the illogical is making the discussion of even the most basic concepts seem a pipe dream, but I shall continue to hold out hope. I will not succumb to the hopelessness and vitriol that I see in your posts.

            "because it is your usual method to patronize, then sting, like a scorpion." I was unaware that scorpions were capable of patronizing. I shall have to research that. (That was a joke, in case the humor wasn't expressed clearly enough).

            "That's just what Jesus would do, your method you learned/teach in bible class?" I might ask you the same thing, Esther. I ask you questions, you insult me. I ask questions, you belittle my faith. I ask you questions, you suggest that I should become an atheist. Not once have you (or any Mormon) actually ANSWERED a question. I have answered every question you or anyone here has asked me regarding my faith. Can you say the same? Can you honestly say that you've followed the example of Christ in your responses to me?

            And where did I ever say I hated your religion? I have said (and will continue to say) that I disagree with it, but hate is a strong word, which I've seldom used, and never in the manner you've stated.

            And perhaps it would assist me to understand, if you would actually answer questions put to you.

            Thus far, you have not. As I said, and will continue to state, answer questions, or admit you can't. That's all.

          • Robert30

            You are the most disrespectful person on this comment section.
            In fact you act very much like a most evil person and make a perfect representative
            for your god of preference who must be satan. That is right isn't it you have the choice to follow the J.C. or his bro satan. Looks like you chose the later.
            That is no doubt why they call your group the later day saints..satan followers.

          • Esther

            That's an expression of your hate, not mine, Robert30.

          • Esther

            1 Peter 16: "… whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ."

          • petroskhan

            If I were falsely accusing you of anything, I suppose that verse might be relevant; however, nothing I have said is false, Esther, as you well know.

            I have accused you of not following Scripture, and have proven it.
            I have accused you of following a false prophet, and have proven it.
            I have accused you of following a sacrilegious doctrine, and have proven it.
            I have accused you of making statements contrary to the Bible, and against Mormon doctrine, and have proven it.

            You have yet to answer, let alone disprove, a single allegation I have made. You dissemble, lie, and misdirect rather than actually discuss ANYTHING. You hide behind empty and baseless statements, and foolishly attempt to convince yourself that you are so much better than everyone who dares to disagree with you, yet you hide, like a scared and petulant child, behind your thin veil of dishonesty and dissembling.

            Either prove I'm wrong, or admit that you can't. With every avoidance of the issues, you prove me right. Answer a single one of the accusations above, or you force me to conclude that you simply cannot.

          • Esther

            You really MUST learn what proof is. I think that is your problem.

          • petroskhan

            I think your problem is that you are so blinded by your hatred and hostility, that you are incapable of self-analysis.

            I have demonstrated beyond any logical doubt the validity of my statements. Prove me wrong, or admit you're wrong. Two simple choices.

          • Esther

            Now, you are really showing your true colors, acting like God, before you have progressed to even becoming a high priest. QED

          • petroskhan

            "Acting like God"? LOL You are out there, aren't you?

            How, pray tell, am I doing that? Or is that another question you can't answer?

            My statement remains unanswered. Show me wrong, or admit you are.

          • Esther

            Re-read the parent statement to which I commented. It really is a simple process… proof, that is … in cases like this especially.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Petroskhan, wouldbephd is really out there. "Acting like God" and furthermore, not a "high priest" yet! The stuff they come up with is nearly beyond comprehension. And the evasion whenever facts are given is, if nothing else, at least entertaining–as you have already pointed out. And I agree with you.

          • petroskhan

            Glad someone else sees it. Thank you.

          • Esther

            You really must learn what proof is, like I said.

          • petroskhan

            Esther, I have quoted the Bible, and verses of the Book of Mormon which state ideas and principles which are in opposition to it. This is Proof that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible.

            I have quoted prophecies of Joseph Smith which did not come to pass. This is Proof that he was a false prophet.

            I have quoted statements of Joseph Smith and other high-ranking Mormons making statements regarding the nature of God that are contrary to the Bible. This is Proof that they held beliefs contrary to the Bible.

            I have quoted the Book of Mormon making statements that are invalidated by history, genetics, etc. This is proof that it is wrong.

            You, on the other hand, have proven nothing.

            You have answered nothing.

            How can you claim that you are substantiating anything at all when all you do is evade the questions, accuse me of lying, and insult me?

            I think, Esther, that you need to learn what proof is. I have proven everything I've said, with sources and quotations. You have yet to even acknowledge a single one of them, let alone prove me wrong. So, answer the statements, or admit you can't.

          • Robert30

            WHAT? Errant thinking

          • Esther

            Didn't you read Petroskhan's germinal comment? He likes to ignore what he said, pretends he never said anything insulting.

          • petroskhan

            And you can, of course, cite a single example of where I've insulted you? Or where I've lied to you? Just ONE? Should be easy, you being so into "proof" and "honesty" and all.

            I mean, it's not like you have a habit of evading issues, or a clear pattern of not answering questions, right?

          • Esther

            HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR RUDE INDIFFERENCE TO OTHERS SACRED BELIEFS, SEE QUOTE "WHO AM I TO QUESTION THE FAITH OF ANOTHER?"~ (WORDS OF PETROSKHAN) …. AS I HAVE SAID YOU MAKE THE RULES SO THAT STATEMENT CAN MEAN A VARIETY OF THINGS, WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO AT THE TIME… HA HA YOU TALK ABOUT VERBAL GYMNASTICS, YOU MIGHT ENTER THE OLYMPICS ON THAT ONE, BUT I CAN SEE THROUGH YOUR ILLOGIC, AND REALLY — BY YOUR RULES — IF I FOLLOW THEM — IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IS BELIEVED, YOU WILL TURN IT INTO MEANINGLESS MUSH.
            petroskhan • 5 days ago • parent
            True dat, but some people need to feel comfortable first, then dig deep to find if that comfort is based on truth or not. Spiritual growth is a process of varying speeds for different people. Feeling comfortable might be a necessary start for some; who am I to question the faith of another? A start along the path is a start…I won't criticize without knowing far more than I do now.0 1 •Reply•Share ›
            Esther • 5 days ago • parent
            petroskhan: Petroskhan said, "… who am I to question the faith of another? " lol Petros!!! I think this one sentence says it all!!! I ask you again, why should any Saint want to answer ANY of your ridiculous inquiries about our faith? We respond to the spirit AND yours is a hypocrite we can see from miles away. Don't you get it?

          • petroskhan

            All you've accomplished with your post, Esther, is to quote what I've said. Nowhere in the quote is there anything even remotely offensive or insulting. "The statement can mean a variety of things." Really? Like what, Esther? Like…I don't have enough information about to question that person's faith? Or do you infer some other, negative, connotation of which I am unaware? (No doubt you do, since being negative seems to be your favorite thing to do).

            However, once again you have not answered a simple question. Once again, you fail.

            So far, all you've done is toss out baseless and ridiculous accusations, insults, and stubbornly and childishly ignored direct questions regarding your beliefs.

            Either answer simple, direct questions, or admit that you can't.

            I have proven that Mormonism is a false doctrine. I have proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a liar. I have proven that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. I have proven that Book of Mormon is direct contradiction to science, the Bible, and accepted world history.

            Prove me wrong, or admit you can't.

          • Esther

            So YOU say. But I have not failed. As usual, you would like me to think so.

          • petroskhan

            Prove me wrong, then. Or admit you can't.

          • Esther

            All religions are based upon revelation. That single thought is all you need to know, but you are so convoluted that nothing would suffice, since doing so would validate others whom you have chosen (not proven) to be invalid.

          • petroskhan

            Joseph Smith was a liar, and a false prophet. I have shown proof of this. Refute it, or admit you're wrong.

            I have shown the Book of Mormon is wrong, with citations from the Book itself, and history, biology, etc. Prove me wrong, or admit you're wrong.

            I have shown proof that anyone in possession of the merest moiety of intelligence could examine, and from which the conclusions are inescapable. Prove me wrong, or admit you're wrong.

            You, Esther, are a windbag. You prove nothing but your own incompetence with every post. You prove that you have nothing of substance to say, and that you are incapable of intelligent, logical debate.

            I defy you, I challenge you, or any other Mormon on this forum (or any other, for that matter) to debate the issues I've presented. I defy and challenge you to prove me wrong in ONE instance. Invalidate ONE SINGLE allegation I've made.

            Either accept the challenge, or admit your inability to do so. Your continued insults and childish tantrums, your asinine attempts to dodge the issue, and your illogical personal attacks prove only that confronting the actual issue is beyond your mental capacities. Prove me wrong, or prove you can't discuss the issues.

            You try to act like you're SO superior. You pretend that you have all the answers. You pretend that you're SO right, and anyone who disagrees with you is so wrong. Okay…PROVE IT. Invalidate ONE SINGLE thing I've said.

            You have a choice here, Esther. You can continue to play the petulant child, lashing out with insults, evasions, and illogical, irrelevant comments; or, you could act like an adult who understands the fundamental principles of debate, and actually answer even a single allegation I've made in regards to Mormonism.

            The choice is yours, the challenge is made. Meet it, or run from it.

          • Robert30

            Warped thinking.

          • Esther

            I expect nothing less from a proponent of abortion, Robert 30. YOU ARE THE WARPED THINKER. SO IS YOUR BUDDY PETROSKHAN.

        • Evermyrtle

          If you really have faith the HE IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, AND HE IS YOUR SAVIOR, I believe there is only the true comfort that you can have

          • Evermyrtle

            The comfort comes from knowing that HE has everything in control and will take care of all things in HIS time. We may have to suffer but we still have the comfort of knowing that HE will take care of HIS own, that we will abide in HIM forever after we are finished on this earth.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

          Please define "comfort" will you Winston?

    • Winston

      But please do be very careful of what "gospel" your pastor leads you under.

      • Robert30

        There is no such thing

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

          The word gospel means good news. If you have no good news Robert30, please just be quiet. TY

    • Robert30

      And you are how old? Way over 55+.
      Why waste what few years you have here on false beliefs. Believe in yourself first and then
      do what feels good.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

        That is a recipe for everlasting disaster.

        • Esther

          YES! Amen, David.

      • Esther

        Don't listen to the proponent of abortion, he will lead you to a deadly path.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

      John 6:28-29King James Version (KJV)
      28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
      29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

  • pcsrocky

    For those "unaffiliated", be careful that it does not become unbelievers. Rules are a part of life. If you apply some of the reasoning I have heard to driving, people would sometime stop at a stop sign or red light and sometimes not stop. We would then have chaos at intersections!
    If the reason is a lack of faith of the leadership or the hypocrisy of the leadership, we are ALL humans and have human frailties. Do I condone the errors and frailties, OF COURSE NOT. However, for all of the "bad" members and/or leaders, there are probably as many or more who try very hard to follow the "rules" of their chosen religion.

    • Winston

      Not attending an apostate church or errant pastor does NOT mean we have become unbelievers…the actual falling away from organized religions is a good thing to keep sincere believers standing firmly planted on God's Word and following Jesus, and not having become "followers of man" which Jesus warned against. Your so called "rules" are mostly man-made dogmatic errors and departures from Biblical Christianity. Perhaps you should become more of a Berean (Acts 17:11) than being the man-follower you must be. I bet your own pastor is a man-follower of the errant mega-church pastors such as: Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, John Piper, Joel Osteen, Marc Driscoll, etc..

      • Robert30

        And what do the above meaga pestors do? Never heard of them!

        • Esther

          Because your head is, as usual, in the sand.

          • petroskhan

            Strong words from someone who can't even validate her own faith, or answer simple questions concerning it. Where's YOUR head, I wonder?

          • Esther

            Aligning yourself with abortionists validates my view of you, Petroskhan.

          • petroskhan

            I haven't "aligned" myself with anyone. I was making an independent statement. I have noticed your rather unusual loyalty and allegiance to an atheist, however. He also supports abortion, you know…

          • Esther

            Yes, YOU ARE aligned with abortionists, against me. And you have even discussed my lack of abilities with him, on this very page. You idiot. Don't you get it? You have earned no respect from me.

            You are talking about Jeff Dixon… I do not follow his religious leaning, I do profoundly respect his work in uncovering contradictions and documented them, that I have seen myself in the bible, that Joseph Smith has also pointed out.

            You should take heed that such contradictions exists. You claim to be so big on proof, yet you criticize it at every turn.

            It is the reason I ask you why I should explain anything to you. You have no respect for proof.

          • petroskhan

            "And you have even discussed my lack of abilities with him, on this very
            page. You idiot. Don't you get it? You have earned no respect from me"

            Nice. They teach to talk like that in your "temple"? Have I called you any names, Esther? As for your lack of abilities, yes, I've mentioned the lack to several people, including you. You have shown this lack, have you not? You have failed to answer every question put to you, haven't you? I have stated the truth. You are incapable, or unwilling, to answer questions regarding Mormon principles. If you have taken umbrage at me for pointing this out, then I strongly suggest that you rectify the matter; namely, by ANSWERING QUESTIONS. You don't want to be labeled as one who is unable to discuss issues logically? Then answer questions with logical, factual answers, rather than childish outbursts of petulant illogic.

            I have asked many questions regarding Mormonism, not just from you, but from several. To a man (or woman, as the case may be), they all refuse to provide even a single answer to the most basic questions. The only thing you people are proving is that you don't HAVE the answers. You can stop the whole "you need to pray" and "it's based on INSPIRATION" nonsense. No one is buying it, dear.

            Admit it, and let's just be done with it. You can't answer a single issue I've raised, for the simple answer that you know I'm right, but you're too blinded by your sheep mentality to actually admit that you have nothing with which to substantiate and validate your position, other than your continued bleating that I'm wrong and you're right.

            As I stated…prove me wrong, or admit you can't. You're being called out on your falsehoods, Esther. Accept, or concede.

          • Esther

            You are truly a pompous windbag of no consequence to the Saints. Your lack of credibility is also a negative for the people you "teach" in your home. I imagine you think yourself to be another cult/sect leader, perhaps of the Jim Jones variety? LOL.

          • petroskhan

            You're in a rather poor position to be casting aspersions on anyone, Esther. You've failed, in every way possible, to make a single valid statement throughout this entire exchange. You posture, preen, congratulate yourself on your imagined virtues, all the while failing to prove anything except what an abysmal failure you are.

            I've presented facts. You've insulted me.

            I've presented quotes from your own Book. You've presented hot air.

            I've quoted your own founders. You've quoted…yourself?

            My challenge stands, unanswered. Prove me wrong, Esther. Or concede that you cannot.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            wouldbephd, Petroskhan has been telling you the truth on all counts. Why are you so vehement and abrasive? If you are correct there is no reason to get worked up about it. Just show Petroskhan where he is wrong. But alas, you will not be able to. Bottom line.

          • Joe Anzilotti

            Just for the record there Esther, could I please have your definition of "pompous windbag" followed by a succinct definition of the "Saints"–assuming you are not talking about that team from New Orleans. I would like to see your definition of saint, to see if it agrees with mine. Being you are certified and everything. Thanks.

          • Esther

            CONSIDER: IF I PERPETUATE FRAUD BY MY ASSOCIATION WITH THE SAINTS, THEN WHAT IS PETROSKHAN PERPETUATING BY HIS ASSOCIATION WITH CHRISTIANITY? Petroskhan's legacy, compare to your ANTI-Mormon stories:
            – The "Protestant Inquisition" is a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.
            – Protestant Huguenots grew into an aggressive minority in France in the 15OOs — until repeated Catholic reprisals smashed them. On Saint Bartholomew's Day in 1572, Catherine de Medicis secretly authorized Catholic dukes to send their soldiers into Huguenot neighborhoods and slaughter families. This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. Other persecutions continued for two centuries, until the French Revolution. One group of Huguenots escaped to Florida; in 1565 a Spanish brigade discovered their colony, denounced their heresy, and killed them all.

            – The Anabaptists, communal "rebaptizers," were slaughtered by both Catholic and Protestant authorities. In Munster, Germany, Anabaptists took control of the city, drove out the clergymen, and proclaimed a New Zion. The bishop of Munster began an armed siege. While the townspeople starved, the Anabaptist leader proclaimed himself king and executed dissenters. When Munster finally fell, the chief Anabaptists were tortured to death with red-hot pincers and their bodies hung in iron cages from a church steeple.
            – Oliver Cromwell was deemed a moderate because he massacred only Catholics and Anglicans, not other Protestants. This Puritan general commanded Bible-carrying soldiers, whom he roused to religious fervor. After decimating an Anglican army, Cromwell said, "God made them as stubble to our swords." He demanded the beheading of the defeated King Charles I, and made himself the holy dictator of England during the 1650s. When his army crushed the hated Irish Catholics, he ordered the execution of the surrendered defenders of Drogheda and their priests, calling it "a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches."

            – The Thirty Years' War produced the largest religious death toll of all time. It began in 1618 when Protestant leaders threw two Catholic emissaries out of a Prague window into a dung heap. War flared between Catholic and Protestant princedoms, drawing in supportive religious armies from Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France and Italy. Sweden's Protestant soldiers sang Martin Luther's "Ein 'Feste Burg" in battle. Three decades of combat turned central Europe into a wasteland of misery. One estimate states that Germany's population dropped from 18 million to 4 million. In the end nothing was settled, and too few people remained to rebuild cities, plant fields, or conduct education.
            – When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.

            accessed Holy Terrors at side-bar of http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ 101412

            IF I PERPETUATE FRAUD BY MY ASSOCIATION WITH THE SAINTS, THEN THE PARALLEL CAN BE DRAWN: WHAT IS PETROSKHAN PERPETUATING BY HIS ASSOCIATION WITH CHRISTIANITY?

            Why repeat the phrase? Because it needs to be!

          • petroskhan

            Once again, you dazzle us all with your avoidance of anything even resembling logic or sanity.

            For the love all that's good and decent in this world, will some one, anyone, PLEASE tell me what she is trying to prove with this rambling, irrelevant post?

            I swear to all reading this, I believe I'm hallucinating, because no one ever born on this planet could know how to get on the internet, and be this devoid of sanity.

            Esther, seriously, in order to lay claim to anything resembling normal, sane, logical behavior, please point what on earth the point of this post is. You are coming across like a complete raving loon with this one.

            I appreciate the history lesson, dear, really I do, but I hate to break it to you like this…umm…I wasn't around for any of the stuff you're citing. So, if you're trying to blame me for any of it, you're a bit off base. I can honestly say that I don't even know any of the people you've mentioned, if that makes you feel better. Also, I'm not a catholic, protestant, hugenot, anabaptist, or any of the others you've clearly got a grudge against.

            So, once again…your point? It seems like you're trying really hard to bring in any and every irrelevant thought you can muster, all to avoid answering the questions I posed long ago.

            As I said, Esther, either you answer the questions I posted so long ago, or I will construe any response you make to be a tacit admission that you agree with me.

            This is the last time I'm going to state this.

          • Esther

            You are the idiot, not I.

          • petroskhan

            I didn't call you an idiot. I called you a bimbo. There's a difference.

            Definition of BIMBO
            1 slang : man, woman —used as a generalized term of disapproval especially for an attractive but vacuous person

            Fits you perfectly, methinks. (Giving you the benefit of the doubt in regards to the looks)

          • Esther

            I BOLDLY CALL YOU AN IDIOT. NO APOLOGY.

          • petroskhan

            I would never expect one from a childish satanist like yourself.

          • Esther

            That's a partial post from the following website: http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ yes, the one to which you refer in the above post… scan the right side bar for HOLY HORRORS PETROSKHAN. You should be able to find it since you are so competent on the internet. You can get a more complete picture why I call you an idiot.

            accessed 110712

          • petroskhan

            Of course, let's all rely on atheists for our opinion of religion. Just like I would listen to alcoholics regarding drinking, and whores regarding sexual conduct.

            Or like I would listen to you regarding…well…anything.

            Nice try, Jeff.

          • Esther

            quantum mechanics is my field of study, and is where my head is most of the time

          • petroskhan

            Try again. With something believable this time. Like pet grooming, or Venusian real estate.

          • Esther

            You are one jealous idiot if ever there was one. Now why wouldn't I share my religion with you? (My first question to the less than first grader.)

          • petroskhan

            Yes, I am green with envy…I so wish I was as devoid of sanity, logic and education as you demonstrate yourself to be. I wish that I as well could so unfetter myself of the constraints of reality and rational thought.

            As for sharing your religion…dear Esther…I've already proven you have none. You are NOT a Mormon. You are NOT a Christian. Proven, beyond any doubt or discussion.

            Next topic, or are you done demonstrating your lack of sanity?

    • petroskhan

      Yes, but what about when those "rules" of the religion run counter to what is plainly taught in the Bible? Should one attend such a church?

      Now, you're going to say, I'm sure, "OF COURSE NOT" in reply to that. But…almost every church out there breaks many of the explicit commands given to God's people. For example, we are told numerous times that His laws are absolute and eternal, unchanging until "heaven and earth pass away." So why do so many worship on Sunday? Show me a single Bible verse abolishing the Sabbath, and commanding that His eternal Sabbath is changed from the last day of the week to the first.

      Or, take Christmas. A clearly pagan festival, against which the Bible is, again, quite clear. We are to have nothing to do with paganism, in any form. We are not to even be curious about such things. How did such an obviously pagan festival worm its way into Churches? To quote the Church Lady, "Could it be….SATAN?"

      Or how about the leader of a large (very large) organized religion equating himself to God? What serious Christian could belong to such an organization? Yet millions worldwide do, and contribute vast amounts to it. Why?

      You see, far too many churches teach what is comfortable, non-confrontational, and soothing to the members. No one wants to rock the boat, no one wants to be "that guy." Well, I AM that guy, and I'm proud of it. I ask questions, I demand proof of everything, and will not tolerate paganism, blasphemy or man-made laws supplanting those of our Creator. That's why I left "organized religion" behind, and I've never been happier, nor more spiritually fulfilled.

      And, if you will pardon me being blunt…tolerating false teachings is condoning them. It's encouraging them. It's easy to say nothing, to claim that we're all human, and make mistakes. It's another to put up with them, and not seek to correct them, and help guide others towards a greater understanding of the truth.

      • Robert30

        So you are an SDA member? What a lost group that is.

        • petroskhan

          No, I'm not. And I agree, they are lost.

    • Robert30

      That is the problem right there. "Rules" of their religions. There are NO hard and fast rules.
      Rules are situational. Forcing your rules on others is never acceptable.

      • Esther

        Except when you and your buddies do it, right, Robert30?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004047180339 John Adams

    I'm sure that in many of these cases the problem lies in the heart of the person. They have no love for God and have no desire to worship Him. However, I'm equally sure that in many cases the problem lies in the church. Many/most churches today have fallen from the truth and are following the ways of the world. I live in a city that 30 years ago had a couple of dozen churches that truly preached the Gospel without compromise in message, practice and lifestyle. However, there is now only one, with one other that hasn't strayed from the truth very far.

    • Evermyrtle

      You are right, Churches are not the same as they were 30 years or more years,, ago.

      • Robert30

        Are you the same as your were 30 years ago. God! How old are you?
        If you haven't changed in 30 years you are dead. Everything changes and mutates into something that can survive in todays world. If you don't change with the times you don't belong in this world.

    • Robert30

      It is people such as yourself with your attitudes that drive normal people out of the church.
      Times change, people change, interpretations of religious beliefs change and if you want to keep up with the times it is good to go modern.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004047180339 John Adams

        God doens't change. It is God whom we must please, NOT men, NOT sinners.

  • victorbarney

    And tell me that our MARXIST BASED SCHOOL SYSTEM began by Thomas Dewey as Secretary of Education under FDR wasn't effective. Just saying…

    • Robert30

      You sure haven't been in school for a long time have you?
      The school system is anything but Marxist. We don't think you have a clue as to what
      a Marxist does.

      • victorbarney

        Duh? YOU! Just saying what is, is…

  • Laur

    And we wonder why our country is going to pot. God wants us to worship Him. When a nation goes far away from Him, He goes away from them and drastic things happen. Read Old Testament for examples. Better get down on your knees if you want our country to survive and do what He says.

    • Robert30

      This country is going to POT because it is far more mind blowing than religion.
      Don't get down on your knees unless you are ready to perform.
      Have some pot first and get rid of the guilt you may have been taught.

  • Winston

    This may have reason to consider why the great falling away mentioned in Scriptures is occurring in America: http://paidionbooks.org/girrard/church/wdygtc.html
    and http://paidionbooks.org/girrard/church/respapos.html
    and
    Pastor, Bishop or Nicolaitan Overlord? – Neil Girrard Is the “pastor” a real New Testament office or a 1st century religious construct?
    The organized "historical" church is NOT what the apostles created in the first century, but became manmade structure and even legalistic, if not Pharisitical and Nicolaitan in nature with "cleric led" than laity led by Bishop/Elder and Deacons.

    • Robert30

      What are you a moron/mormon?

      • Esther

        What's your sect, Robert30?

      • Esther

        What is you sect, Robert30? Are you a self-worshiper?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods

    anyone in the 1 in 5 without religious affiliation who claim to love Christ must love him anywhere close as they claim for if they truly did would want to be fellow believers most of the time. while in college at a Christ center school i live my entire years in a dorm where my brothers and I had unit devos together and held each other accountable. after graduating I miss that community found there. at church I get only a small taste of the community lost. when Paul was on his way to Damascus to round up the believers there Jesus appeared to him and asked him why he was persecuting Him. the church is Christ body and any true Christian would hate to leave this body. early in Acts it tells us that these early believers sold their property so they could share their gifts with others and living in community together.

  • Robert30

    In this day and age it is long over due that americans drop their religious pacifiers.
    We do not need the pie in the sky you get a reward after you die thing.
    What we need is to be free of the old restrictions and guilt thrust upon us by a bunch of preachers who are no better than the average person under the bridge looking to live for free.
    No thanks xianity is long out of style. If you go to any so-called church all you find are the really elderly those over 55. Of those about 90% are women. The men are out on the golf course having a ball and the women are sitting in church praying they can find their husbands balls; or anything else.
    Free America From Religion…the bumper sticker on my cars.
    More people ask for them all the time.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

      Would you prefer Hamas and Hezbollah to Baptists and Pentecostals Robert30?

      • Robert30

        Any day. Both Buttists and Penistecostals are as bad as any cleric in the middle east.

    • petroskhan

      Robert,
      The Bible is consistent, internally and externally verifiable, as is the historicity of Jesus. The various prophecies of the Bible which have been fulfilled all show and confirm its reliability and veracity. The Bible has solid logic and proof on its side.

      You, on the other hand, have…what? Your negativity, insecurity and hostility towards something you cannot understand or accept? How can you really expect to convince anyone of your position's logic and veracity when you simply can't prove anything except your own bias?

      "In this day and age it is long over due that americans drop their religious pacifiers." Really? Why? The Bible is pretty clear, we are coming close to the end times. Seems like logic would dictate that more than ever this is the time ADOPT religious "pacifiers", rather than discard, with no logical reason, an assurance of eternal life.

      "What we need is to be free of the old restrictions and guilt thrust upon
      us by a bunch of preachers who are no better than the average person
      under the bridge looking to live for free."
      Obviously, you've missed the majority of the point of the Bible. With the forgiveness purchased by the death of our Savior, we are free from guilt. With repentance, there is a complete freedom from guilt and worry. Your statement is not logical in the least, and simply has nothing to do with Christianity.

      "If you go to any so-called church all you find are the really elderly those over 55. Of those about 90% are women." And you know this because you've personally visited every single church in the United States? Oh, wait…you must have missed at least one…since your demographic doesn't apply to ANY church I've been to.

      Look, on the serious side, Robert, it's cool to have a belief of your own. But make sure that you can actually defend/substantiate that belief. As with any topic, the topic of religion is best approached with complete and total objectivity. Bring no preconceptions to the issue, and simply examine it without bias. I realize that's difficult, but it is quite rewarding. You just might surprise yourself.

    • Esther

      You are a disaster.

  • ajfrench

    If that's true, a Romney/Ryan should be a shoo-in ifthe other 80 % vote based on their Biblical faith; that is they actively read the Bible.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

    I don't affiliate with any religion (except that of James 1:27). But I affiliate with Jesus and all His children.