Why Is Homosexuality Wrong?

With every sin there are multiple levels of why it's offensive to God and to be avoided. The simplest is clearly to say the Bible says it is. And we should start there; and if we can go deeper, that's good.

I think it's implied clearly and spoken clearly in Romans 1:24-29 that homosexuality is wrong and to be avoided. And I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 lists a very unusual phrase about homosexuality where he says, "Those who do such things"-and he lists it along with greed and covetousness and other sins, so it's not unique by itself in this-"those who do such things will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

In other words, if you know that it's wrong and you say, "I don't care that it's wrong. I don't care what God says. I'm going to do that thing," that's an indication that you're not going into the kingdom of heaven.

Now, that's just the "It's wrong, don't do it" authority answer. The question "Why would the Bible say that?" is also multi-layered.

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Evermyrtle

GOD created the universe and everything in it and it was all good, until man got control. HE made everything as HE wanted it, something like we may make a cake, just exactly the way HE wanted it. It was perfect. He made rules that HIS creation should follow. These rules were, everyone of them for man's good and if mankind had followed these rules the universe would have remained perfect.

HE made man and HE made a woman from Adam's rib. He wanted them to produce children and that the population would cover the earth He made it so that each man would have a wife, a woman, not another man and that they would have children. Again, his plan was perfect, but man did not want perfection. Man did not want to follow GOD'S rules, he was greedy for power and excitement and decided he did not want a woman for a wife he would try another man and the excitement to rule against was great, made them feel like they were gods, themselves. The more evil that they committed against GOD, they better they felt, about themselves and was enjoyed so much that they completely forgot GOD.

Evil became so overwhelming, so awful, that GOD decided that HE would start all over. He got rid of all the evil people which left only Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, who were the only people on earth that followed HIS very simple rules. Guess what happened!!! In very little time there were entire cities that had only homosexuals living there, except for Lot and his family. GOD told Lot to take his family and leave because HE was going to destroy the sister cities. Lot asked GOD if there were any people in these cities that were not homosexual, would HE spare them and GOD said "YES" but lot could find no such cities an therefore, Lot took his family and left and GOD destroyed both cities. All of this can be found in Genesis, in HIS WORD.

Why is homosexuality a sin? Because GOD, THE MAKER, THE OWNER OF IT ALL, HE SAYS "IT IS EVIL" It is disease ridden, it is an abomination HIM. That is all it takes to make it a sin. WE DO NOT GET A VOTE!!!
- Robert30
  
  Surely you are gay just hiding in the closet aren't you. Quietly you envy all who have the freedom to be with whom they wish and do what they wish with them.
  You will be punished by your god for hating those who make up its creation.
  Gays are great people and very talented and mostly with a lot of money.
  - KentPerry
    
    Yes Robert that's it and anyone that thinks Murder is wrong is a closet murderer too right smartguy
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Oh we know you have no issue with murder, now don't we Kent?
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff if you can prove I have committed Murder,, CALL THE POLICE ! Else Shut your damn pie hole idiot
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Kent, you admitted it to me. It matteRS NAUGHT if I can prove it. I said you and I BOTH know you have no issue with murder and we both know that is true.
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff,, if I admitted it to you, how does that prove I have no issue with it? I mean if YOU admitted to one, knowing you as I do… I'd say I'd call the cops because that's the right thing to do,, and THAT MEAN I would have issues with you saying that EVEN when it is Hearsay and knowing most of the stuff you talk about is hearsay and the rest,, well,, the rest is just bullsh*t. So, no Jeff,, nice try but as usual always a brides maid and never a bride eh for you atheist types who haven't learned what facts in evidence is or even the most fundamental basics of logic and reason etc,. you know, all those big words atheists keep repeating are about them they will become synonymous with those words and we will all be so impressed! HA HA
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, the difference is I actually understand the law and what hearsay evidence is. But please continue to post nonsensical statements.
Vladimir

For those who don't subscribe to the Bible and therefore, are missing the most important evidence that homosexuality is wrong, try this on for size. Scientists will test the limits when evaluating a behavior. Apply that to homosexuality and one limit is that nobody practices it. Under that criteria, nothing happens to the viability of the human race. The other limit is that everyone practices homosexuality. That results in the extinction of the human race. Only the environmental wackos favor that.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  According to the bible, being gay is an abomination. Supposedly two people of the same sex sleeping together is disgusting to the Lord. Well, this idea needs to be approached from two perspectives.
  
  The first is whether or not being gay is a natural orientation. Since I am not gay, I have no way to know if this is true or not. However, since I am not gay, I do know that I am not interested in gay sex. I also know I enjoy heterosexual sex very much. I know it is not a "choice" over this issue. It would not matter how mad I was at my parents or how many times a priest tried to have me help him be one with the Lord, I have no interest in that. Not that there is anything wrong with it, to quote Seinfeld. So, from a personal perspective, it does not seem like homosexuality is a choice.
  
  And lets be honest, the homosexual acts of anal penetration and oral sex are also performed by heterosexual couples, often with much enjoyment and gusto. Therefore, it cannot be said that these actions are homosexual acts.
  
  How about other animals? After all, gay sex is often referred to as being against nature.
  
  Sodomy has been stigmatized for century upon century, and in many cultures across the world and through time, mostly seeking to stigmatize relationships between members of the same sex. Almost invariably, when it is criminalized, those who criminalize it (or would do so) refer to it as the "crime against nature" or the "sin against nature." The presumption is that homosexual behavior is a perversion, and a uniquely human perversion, engaged in as the result of what is presumed to be a learned attraction to members of the same sex.
  There's only one problem with that assumption: None of it is true.
  
  In the approximately 1,000 to 3,000 species whose behavior has been well researched and described in the literature, approximately 450 have been shown to have clear homosexual behaviors. As we'll learn in this essay, homosexuality is not at all exclusively a western, European cultural pattern as some Christian and Muslim fundamentalists and Afrocentrists (and even some African politicians) have long maintained. It's not even unique to humans. Any homosexual behavior you care to name – anal sex, same sex kissing, long-term pair bonding between members of the same sex, courtship rituals unique to homosexual couples, all these and many more are all commonly found in the animal kingdom.
  
  http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
  
  Lets also look at it from a biblical concept. What does the bible say about it? I know it calls it an abomination in the OT. However, Jesus makes no reference to homosexuality being a sin in the NT. Since Jesus is supposedly God, and Christians believe he is all knowing, surely he would have made some comment on homosexuality if he felt it was a problem. Yet, he does not make any comments. However, for some reason, Christians feel this is worse than almost anything else. Which is an odd perspective given the number of gay adult videos viewed every year, compared to the actual percentage of gay people in the world. However, what other abominations does the Bible specify? Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5).
  
  Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).
  
  Charging or paying interest are abominations. Bankers and anyone with a mortgage, car loan or credit card debt will be unavailable to throw the first stone, regardless of the interest rate (Psalm 15:1-5, Jeremiah 15:10). Graven images of other gods are an abomination (Deut 7:25).
  
  Let us not forget wearing blended fabrics. Deuteronomy 22:11 forbids wearing a material made of wool and linen, but Leviticus 19:19 says it's an abomination to wear any blended material, period. Hence a woman in a man's button-down can be doubly abominable if it's a no-iron, easy care blend of cotton and polyester.
  
  Of course, when confronted with such information, there are people who will tell you that the blended fabrics abomination is really just a symbolic warning that Jews should not mix with other cultures, and that the dietary laws were set aside for Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem, and that these "other abominations" were about self-preservation, hygiene and just for Orthodox Jews anyway. In short, when something they do is shown to be an abomination, many abominators become instant anthropologists, Biblical scholars and historians as well.
  
  So why do active abominators continue to refer to the Bible when condemning homosexuals? Are such men and women unaware of their own abominations detailed in the same scriptures? Or are they simply hypocrites like so many Christians are?
  
  For myself, I am sure that these Christian people who must be full of integrity, since they are continually telling everyone this tidbit of information, once informed of their own abominable behavior, will step into the circle and accept for themselves whatever punishment they were going to hand out to others. "Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) That's the verse I recall whenever someone uses the Bible to justify a pet bias.
  
  So, as we can see, there are many things that the biblical god takes issue with. But for some reason, what Christians' focus on is homosexuality. I will avoid the easy target of saying perhaps they hate something they see in themselves and suggest that they work on accepting gay people as easily as they do with people who wear blended fabrics or men who trim their beards.
  - Wordman
    
    "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Le 18:22
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      The bible says eating shellfish or wearing blended fabrics are abominations as well. it says many pointless and silly things.
      - mallen11
        
        A Christian or atheist should never make an argument
        exclusively using the Old Testament Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law, ending its
        requirements (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). If you use the Old Testament Law as the sole argument for homosexuality being a sin, you should also declare that everything the Law outlaws to be sin: eating shrimp, wearing clothing of mixed fabrics, sowing different types of seed into the same field, etc. No, Jesus fulfilled the Law. Christians are not bound by the Old Testament Law, but rather are to be subject to the Law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-39; Galatians 6:2).
        So, if the Old Testament Law cannot exclusively be used to argue for homosexuality being sinful, why then do Christians believe homosexuality is sinful? The answer is that the New Testament also clearly and explicitly states that homosexuality is both immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). The New Testament confirms the Old Testament command against homosexuality, explains why the command existed, and argues for why homosexuality should continue to be considered sinful. What then about shrimp? Does God still hate shrimp? No. Jesus Himself "declared all foods clean" (Mark 7:19). Jesus later confirmed this in a vision to Peter (Acts 10:15). While the New Testament confirms that homosexuality is sinful, it clearly indicates the food laws to be null and void. God never hated shrimp. Rather, God disallowed the consumption of shrimp to distinguish the Israelites' diet from that of the surrounding nations, and likely due to the fact that since they are bottom-feeders, shrimp are really not very healthy.
      - Robert30
        
        Hey! Heysus your god was most likely gay based on the presumed fact that he hung out with a bunch of men.
        Where there is no god there are no really stupid rules and a lot fewer wars.
      - mallen11
        
        Go back and read the Bible; there were plenty of women around them at all times and served them as well. We also know that Peter was married.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        Technically, we only know that Peter was married at one point. We don't know whether or not his wife was still alive by the time Peter was called by Jesus, and considering that she wasn't mentioned when Peter's mother-in-law was sick, we have cause to believe that she died.
      - mallen11
        
        You are straining at a nat and swallow a camel just to keep the catholics happy. A laughable explanation.
        
        1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes anyone that hangs out with a bunch of men must surely be gay. I suppose if we forced gays to hang out with a bunch of woman, they would change back to straight then right, Hoss?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You should declare that everything that the OT outlaws should be declared a sin. Gods word is supposedly unchanging and eternal. And stop with the nonsense of trying to differentiate between the OT and NT. According to your fable, Jesus IS god, and has existed for all time. Therefore, he was around when the OT laws were created. In fact, he had to have created them.
      - mallen11
        
        Apparently, you are use to telling others what to do or think. That is not what we as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ do to you. What makes you think we are going to follow your demands? We do feel sorry for you and pray for you but we never tell you what you should think or do. So I am sending God's Word to you even though you don't have the ability to understand it.
        
        I Timothy 6: 3-7 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by
        contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take
        anything out of it either.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What demand have I made of you?
      - mallen11
        
        Everytime you disagree with us you tell us what we SHOULD do. Again…
        I Timothy 6: 3-7 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by
        contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take
        anything out of it either.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You believe that every time someone has a different opinion they are actually demanding that you change your mind? lol
      - mallen11
        
        Isn't that is why you are on this site since you try to change our minds by putting us down and giving screwed up lies about our living God and savior of this world?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, not really. I have little expectation that most people on this site will change their minds. You are too far lost to the god delusion. I post to reach people who may be checking this site out and are still trying to determine what they believe. I want them see there is a reasonable alternative to delusion.
      - mallen11
        
        Your reasoning is hilarious; as usual. The shallow things you say are not going to reach anyone on this site. The sad part is that you believe the dark side of life and there is no light in your life. I will say this about you, Jeff, that if you ever turn your life over to God you will be one of the best witness for Him in our day. Your negative energy is being wasted on this site.
        Atheists do not use the mind or logic to arrive at their conclusion, they use didactic reasoning that eliminates certain facts and evidence to stack the deck in their favor to satisfy their own ego’s pride of being right.
        
        Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before stumbling.
        
        Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before stumbling.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The concept of didactic analysis is that it involves facts and deduction. So, yes, I do use that. However, the only thing I eliminate is what the Christian focuses on, which is primarily opinion and heresay. And btw, quoting bible verses as some sort of proof of anything to a person who does not agree that the bible verse was written by god is one of the most absurd things that Christians so.
        
        As far as reaching anyone here, I already said I doubted I would. I am posting for people not yet lost to the god delusion.
      - mallen11
        
        The Word of God is the very thing that believers should use because it is what unbelievers don't want to hear and the Bible is what we are to live by even though many do not know it but should. It is God's words, not mine.
        
        Heb 4:12For the word of God is alive and powerful sharper than any two-edged
        sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
        
        Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.
        
        2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy (Biblical knowledge) was ever made by an act of human will (design, purpose), but men were carried along by the Holy Spirit who spoke from God.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        We could not care less if you quote the entire bible every time we debate. The verses in the bible are not from god, they are written by men. You are not following gods word, you are following words that some people wrote on behalf of their non-existent deity. How do we know this to be true? Because so much of the bible is nonsense.
        
        Jacob and the case of the magical genetics Found in: Genesis 30:37-39 And the most bizarre tale in the Bible goes too…this head-scratcher from Genesis, with its utterly bemusing explanation of the genetic code. Basically, Laban is taking all of Jacob’s beloved striped and spotted cattle. Jacob is left with boring old, plain-colored cattle, which he doesn't seem to like at all. So Jacob concocts a cunning plan: he gets some sticks and begins painting stripes on them. He then plants them next to his cattle. What Jacob thinks is that if he gets his cattle to look at the striped sticks while copulating, then they will give birth to striped young. Now, we’d all expect this idiotic plan to fail and Jacob to learn a lesson about something or other, but no it actually works. The cattle give birth to striped young, and Jacob is happy. What on earth is going on here? Anyone with the most basic understanding of genetics knows that this is bunk. The odd thing is that this story seems to have no purpose and moral – it’s just there. And I can’t help wondering how many scientists with painted sticks had attempted to repeat this process before Mendel came along and said, “I’m pretty sure that’s not how it’s supposed to happen fellas, why don’t we try this instead?”
      - mallen11
        
        You are beating a dead horse. I don't debate the Word of God with people who have no understanding of spirtual phenomenon. I make my comments not to argue but to state what the Bible says.
        
        Titus 3:10-11 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
        
        1 Corinthians 2:14….But the natural man (unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
        
        2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
        
        Just like you, Jeff, if there are people on this site who are searching for the truth, I also want them to see it from the Word of God; not man's. 1 Corinthians 2:14….But the natural man (unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
        
        Just like you, Jeff, if there are people on this site who are searching for the truth, I also want them to see it from the Word of God; not man's.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well goodie for you. However, whether it is a dead horse or not depends on how one views the bible.
        
        I have no doubt that you consider quoting useless bible verses that people wrote to be a good tactic. But whether it reaches people is questionable. People are moving away from a belief in the bible. The number of people who claim to be Christian is dropping. So, go ahead and parrot absurd verses. It only helps my side anyway.
      - mallen11
        
        You may be absolutely right, Jeff, about people moving away from the Bible as the Bible says there will be a falling away in end times but as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I have a responsibility to spread the gospel and glorify Him in my life until I meet Him face to face in heaven.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Ok, let us assume you are right. Why are you posting here? Most everyone here already agrees with you. How are you spreading the gospel by talking to people that already agree with you?
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff he is talking to you and in the divine providence that God has sent him here in the hopes YOU would cross paths and just maybe THIS time, THIS Christian might get some sense into that thick skull of yours. Now me,, I kinda doubt it but GOD,, he seems to think while you are hearing this stuff you may as well hear from mallen too. Hey,, ya never know,, stranger things have happened.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        yes, stranger things have happened. Like loons embracing reality. But we shall not hope for anything that crazy.
      - mallen11
        
        Very few agree with me but there are still people like you on this site and those who do not believe what God says in HIs Word even though they claim to Christian may come to realize His Word; the Bible is the truth.
        
        II Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Hate to break it to you, but most everyone here agrees with you.
      - mallen11
        
        Thank you but I doubt that since I don't agree with most people on this site.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So you do not agree with the an atheist and you do not agree with the Christians on this site, wow you are more contrary than me.
      - mallen11
        
        I did not say I disagree with ALL the Christians on this site but I do disagree with the way all atheist believe.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff told us once on this site that it is the biblical god he does not believe in b/c of all the contradictions. But he is not opposed to belief in God if someone could show some reasonable, verifiable in the scientific sense, proof that he exists.
      - mallen11
        
        Science has not been able to prove everything they say is true; yet many accept science by faith as being true. One can see God’s earth and universe but
        science cannot tell us how it all began but God can.
        It requires FAITH to accept the provisions God provided with nonmeritorious FAITH. If one is not willing to accept what God has provided by FAITH then one will suffer the consequences of eternal damnation. Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ for
        salvation is so easy but too many want to make it difficult.
        I Cor 2:5b …so that your FAITH would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
        Heb 11:1 Now FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
        Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through FAITH in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by FAITH in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
        Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by FAITH apart from works of the Law.
        Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus.
        Romans 1:21-32 for its worship of the creation (Science, environment, nature, etc.), and not the Creator.
        John 4:24 God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit (in fellowship) and truth (using the knowledge of his Word.)
        Acts 4: Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
      - Esther
        
        It is very true that science does not tell us everything, you are right about that, and I could not agree with you more. However true that is, and however easy that is for me to see, being a scientist myself who experienced the point at which I understood that a particular venerable and wise old scientist called the very discipline I study and really do know a lot about, he called it "silly." Now the reason he did is way too complex to explain here. Suffice it to say, that although it is "silly" it has helped us approximate understanding standing many, many things and solve many problems. It has never shown us anything about the existence or the non-existence of God. I have been quite happy to believe and exercise faith in God. Now, after many years of not questioning this idea of Him, in May of this year, I encountered some pretty evil people who, in the political sense, want to destroy my country and make it something I don't recognize. I had to leave the university because of these things that had been festering but had been pretty easy to ignore until then. I will not discuss this and mention it here because I just want you to know the kinds of issues that are discussed on Zionica are basically new to me, and I am not going to take sides. It may seem that way to you, yes I guess it does, and I apologize for that. I major thing you should understand is that FAITH is something I have never talked about in a public forum and so it is really difficult for me to do. You must understand that can't force talk about FAITH. Being a novice at this, already I am feeling I have said too much. But no one says Oh she is a novice at this, back off… most the the time I am attacked… Now with regard to Jeff, I see people attacking him all the time… to him, the biblical is a delusion… You have to respect his reasons for thinking so. You can cherry-pick the bible all you want and find the best of the things that support your good FAITH. But know that you do that and accept it. I don't see anything wrong with accepting the fact of bible errancy. Jeff's right that there are those errors. How can anyone blame him for seeing those and pointing them out is beyond me??? That is where I am with this topic. It doesn't mean I don't have FAITH! It just means my faith is personal. It just means I am a realist, and I became one in science when I first realized I would never see an atom because they are so small for the eye to see, and I had to depend on the light they emit or absorb for verification of what they are doing… and it is at this point, I also found that I have to use the protocol … which much later I read that the venerable scientist we all know to be the greatest scientist of the 20th century … which he calls "silly." Does this get me nowhere? Not really, I still can teach the thing we are absolute about… it is at the fringes that I become very doubtful about where I spent my time for almost 5 years. In fact, mallen, I find my education in that particular subject and knowing there are limits to it, are perturbing me less and less, when I see that in the real world there are similar cases. I do not think a higher power is going to fault me for questioning everything, as if He is who I think He is, He is grateful that I give His creation so much thought and do not depend so much upon obvious biblical errancy.
      - mallen11
        
        Esther, I have read your comment several times to make sure I understood what you were trying to say. I see no reason why people can't question what they read or hear about God or His Word; as long as they are seeking an answer to learn the truth about who and what God is and why humans are on this earth and not for arguing. As a believer in the Lord Jesus Chist, what purpose do we serve? At one time in my life I doubted things I had been taught when challenged because I could not answer them. That was when I realized I needed to know more about God so I could gve an answer from His Word; the Bible. I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old and always attended church but did not get good Bible teaching until I was 32 and I am now 72. I even attended a Christian College and then a University. Thankfully, God led me to the right place to learn His truths. It sounds like you are also searching for the truth and I commend you for that.
        I believe you will understand the following explanation regarding the way we are taught the Bible. It has cleared up everything I ever questioned and am confident in what I believe and in whom I believe.
        
        God’s own complete and coherent message to man was recorded in perfect accuracy in the original languages of scripture: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. They are the languages carrying Divine Authorship.
        
        Our pastor teaches from the original languages of Hebrew and Greek using ICE:
        
        I= isagogics, the interpretation of scripture with its framework of historical
        setting or prophetical environment.
        
        C=categorical, communication of scripture – comparing scripture with scripture
        which results in Biblical systematic theology. Theological nomenclature must be
        assigned to give retention of categories.
        
        E=exegesis, the expository approach to scriptures and based on the analysis of
        the grammar, etymology, syntax of the scripture. Every verse must be correctly
        translated so it can be accurately interpreted. It must be interpreted in the
        time of writing. This is to determine under the ministry of God the Holy Spirit
        the exact thought of any given writer under any given context.
        
        In regards to Jeff, he likes to argue and as he has said he wants people to know that there is something other than Christianity that people can believe. He makes many people frustrated because they don't know enough about God's Word to challenge what he says and therefore they attack him. This is wrong even though I probably have a few times not because of frustration but the blantant things he says that are not true about the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible. The one thing I do agree with him on is that he is voting for Romney.
        I do respect people who are educated but often their educaton gets in the way of simply having faith in God and His Word. Every contradiction that people have so called found in the Bible has been proven false. When the Bible is taught correctly, there are no contradictions to be found. The different translations cause this problem; that is why the Bible needs to be studied and taught directly from the original languages.
        I got interrupted by a neighbor friend and lost my train of thought but I believe I have said enough.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you. MAllen, for that response. I have a question: Do you trust it when such biblical scholars tell you that the bible is inerrant?
        
        Remember, you are speaking to a realist, but one who certainly wants to believe what her Mom said about Jesus and God, but I am one who at this point in time recalls where I stood… at the precipice of the greatest, most profound discovery in several lifetimes and discovered that discovery was thought by the greatest one of all, to be "silly."
      - mallen11
        
        We believe the Holy Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God in the original languages, authoritative, inerrant, and God breathed (II Timothy 3:16, 17; II Peter 1:20, 21; Matthew 5:18; John 16:12, 13).
        Since I do not know what you are talking about when you mention a "profound discovery" but I do know that with God and His Word it is absoute when things of man are usually relative and change often.
        
        I consider myself a realist as well and that is why my faith stands on the Word of God — He is as real to me as any living person I know in life because of the knowledge I have of Him from the Bible. What it says is true and what I have needed from Him has worked in my life. His grace is sufficient for me…
        
        2 Cor 12:7-10 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
        
        Phil 4:11-13 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. (…who keeps on pouring the power into me.)
      - Wordman
        
        Esther, I don't believe that Jeff is open to the existence of God. He fancies himself to be an open-minded person, but he is not. He is as proud and impenetrable as the day is long and God explicitly tells us that He resists such men. The Bible tells us that the evidence for God’s existence is all around us. Even so, we are unable to make sense of it without God’s sovereign intervention. Seldom does He grant such intervention where there is a lack of basic humility. Jeff bows to no one and nothing but himself and his own intellect. He will not even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that he might lack the resources to figure this all out on his own. Apart from a sovereign work of God, I do not see how such a man can find faith. And without at least a small seed of faith we can not come to know God.
      - Esther
        
        I understand. Maybe you nor I are the ones to fan the flame that I know is in his heart. He in fact denies the heart has any part in pure reason. Atheists generally will not talk personal with anyone. You said you are a slave of Christ, or words to that effect. The implication of this is stunning to me and being a realist, I find it impossible to agree also that is a viable way to be, to believe, in terms of a biblical god. I know this sounds hypocritical but I do believe one can have Christ-like behavior towards others, peace, love, brotherhood, charity (the pure love of Christ), without being his "slave." [I have read MacArthur on this subject.] One must believe before one can develop faith. As Jeff has said so often, it is the contradictions. How can he believe knowing these contradictions? Also, I know of the Reform tradition and the efforts taken to look back on the old writings to discover more truth, why, because there are contradictions. I think those of you who are scholars should at least share your belief with Jeff that, yes, there are contradictions and, yes, this is our 99.9% effort as ministers of our church to erase all doubt, first in our minds and then in the minds of the people we serve. It's scholarship and scholarship admits to NOT knowing everything. I don't see doing so, is any different than Jeff trying to do so on his own. In fact, that is how new sects are formed, is it not? One example: Calvinism.
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeez man,, what a shame.
        
        Just incase I don't see you again,, take care jeff and God Bless you mallen for trying that was some provocative stuff you have laid on us.
        
        Well, I sure hope you reconsider.. jeff
        
        and soon
        
        G/nite
      - KentPerry
        
        I got to say Mallen YOU are amazing. Whether Jeff gets it or not I am and I am learning a lot watching you diffuse Jeffs argument and that is the correct word "difuse"
      - mallen11
        
        I appreciate your comment and we both know it is the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word that gives us the ability to answer through the power of the Holy Spirit.
        
        I Peter 3:15 …but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        "The concept of didactic analysis is that it involves facts and deduction." So what in the world are you trying to say? You cannot do either an analysis of facts or come up with any deductions that take into account the real facts.
        BTW it is "hearsay." Which noun, is not the basis for a true Christian's belief and focus on pleasing God.
        "god delusion"–you are going to wish it was a delusion in due time, unless you start taking into account the extant evidence for The God of the universe "Jeffrey."
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You have a hard time following a conversation, don't you Joe? Mallen stated that Atheists use didactic analysis. I agreed with him. Now, I think he made a mistake in what he was trying to say, but in any event, I agree we do use didactic analysis.
        
        Gosh, I made a mistake in spelling. Bring out the militia and shoot me. It is, of course, the first time anyone has done that on this site. :)
        
        Please provide this extant evidence.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        If my hearing aid is working ok, I usually do fine in a conversation that I am interested in. I merely stated a fact "Jeffrey" (as per Doc Esther) that you are unable to do either the analysis of facts or come up with valid deductions–your previous statements notwithstanding. At any rate, my point was, you cannot do didactic analysis.
        Where can the militia be sent. Do you have a zip code+4? That would make it easier to locate the recalcitrant poor speller that you are.
        "extant" evidence means just that. I have better things to do than to sit here and provide you with a list of things which you are well aware of "Jeffrey." Maybe you need new glasses, or perhaps a heart tune up. Or just do the "Chrome Google" thing. : )
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        How your hearing aid has any relevance on this website is yet another example of how you have no idea what is being discussed.
        
        You can state anything you want, but the reality is that I post factual information all the time. Your disregard for that fact I could not care less about.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        That was an attempt at humor Jethro, but it is clear that your didactic analysis has been exceeded as usual. You are about as keen at that as Doc Esther. Don't lose any sleep over it. What are we supposed to do with the militia?
      - Esther
        
        'still lamenting over the fact I have a doctorate and you don't, Minister Anziilotti.
      - Esther
        
        You know whatever you do — any kind of analysis you use — remember your god does like bad manners, Joe Anzilotti.
      - Esther
        
        I am an applied mathematician and a novice here in the realm of debating ideas, Joe, so it behooves me to know, since I do want to learn, how being a slave to Christ gives you the right to act like you are ruler over people in the debate forum?
        
        Also, I saw my name used in rather an offensive way. What does this mean?:
        " I merely stated a fact "Jeffrey" (as per Doc Esther) that you are unable to do either the analysis of facts or come up with valid deductions–your previous statements notwithstanding."
        I really find your tone demeaning.
      - KentPerry
        
        "Bring out the militia and shoot me."
        
        Serious!! Cuz if its all the same to you,, you can get the same results just using a handgun on yourself and we will be just as appreciative and YOU,, WHY YOU JUST MAY GET THAT PROOF OF GOD'S EXISTENCE YOU HAVE ALWAYS DENIED SEEING . BUT THATS NOT ALL!! IF YOU ACT NOW JEFFERY DAHMER DIXON,, YOU GET TO HAVE GODS JUDGEMENT BUT ONLY IF YOU ACT NOW! SO DO IT TODAY! JEFF! Oh and Jef,, we're pullin for ya baby!!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        While you might appreciate me killing myself, you will have to be disappointed yet again.
      - KentPerry
        
        awe damn,, whats the problem? how can I assist? You know, thats why I'm here, to help and all that. See Esther I'm just being nice to Jeff and he is right I am so disappointed but then again,, atheists are always gutless when it comes to finding out the truth once and for all because if their right and all they do is die,, it ain't like you'll be missing anything,, hell you wouldn't know you ever even existed and there would be no logical reason to waste anymore time because even that wouldn't be an issue at all anymore. No such thing as an existence for you jeff but I understand the terror atheists are known for spouting off on their death beds.
        
        It's always the same thing too.. "i didn't know God, I didn't know" "No No NOOOOO" then the pilot light goes out in their eyes but those same eyes dead and lifeless,, saw truth if only once in their lives,, you can tell they saw it in those final moments.
        
        Really fascinating and quite sad too
        
        but for some reason,, I don't think sad would be accurate in your case.
        
        maybe disgusted and affirmed but sad??
        
        Mmmm not so much
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What a surprise. Kent, the psychopath hopes that someone dies.
      - Esther
        
        You're right about that guy, Jeffrey. [It is not a matter of taking sides, for anyone about to write it again here ... Just read what we are talking about ... it is in plain site before you attack me (or Jeff Dixon) once more.]
      - Esther
        
        You are totally psychotic Kent Perry. Look at what you said. It's insane.
      - KentPerry
        
        is it? Mmmm Oh yeah I see where you might get that idea.. Well Good then,, I am glad you can see that but you'll never guess why
      - Esther
        
        From an infinity of reasons, no, I could not guess why. But if I am right about a psychosis on your part, no reasonable why's could be given; psychosis is a brain disease, whose link to reason is likely irretrievably broken, Kent. Aside from the fact you should get that checked, I think you just hate it Jeff won't fall in line and become a raging Calvinist. That is a totally unreasonable expectation.
      - Esther
        
        Kent, you are the WORST Calvinist I have EVER met, and that is pretty bad. I know one that would come close to it. You guys will NEVER get your claws into any member of my family and I hope not anyone else on Earth. You are the most false of the pseudo-Christians of any sect that I know, and certainly have NONE of the fabled Christ-like virtues.
      - KentPerry
        
        Yeah,, so??? I mean what is your point esther? why the hell do you tell me this stuff?: You trying to ask me out? You wanna tell me you're hot for me but because you haven't much courage in that area you like to tease me or maybe piss me off?
        
        Or are you just trying to tell me something to hate you for ? I really couldn't care less either way and I am so glad I don't portray the 'fabled" Christian virtues I have always thought the FACTUAL ones were more my speed which happens to be much faster than yours.
      - Esther
        
        KentPerry: LOL, you are daft! on the first counts for sure. Well, now that you have ADMITTED a belief in Christ-like virtues, why don't we see an exhibition of them by you on this site. The men is my family who are Catholic, and the men I know in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints show vastly more Christ-like virtues than you do! Jeffrey Dixon, yes, OUR Jeff you know on Zionica, shows more Christ-like virtues than you do … same as do many other men on this site.
        
        How do you suppose I knew you are Calvinist? Have you EVER wondered? It is because you demonstrate NO Christ-like virtues. When I think of Calvinist men, I think of the ones that I know and of that characteristic, they are absolutely VOID!
      - KentPerry
        
        Quote " The concept of didactic analysis is that it involves facts and deduction. So, yes, I do use that. However, the only things I eliminate are what the Christian focuses on, which is primarily opinion and heresay."
        
        Oh really?? Like those Billion Christians you deducted when you deduced how to deduct the debunked Catholic Cristians using the hearsay you deduced was actually a fact you could deduct and IPSO FACTO Jeffs A "ROCKET SURGEON!" HA HA
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Are you having some sort of psychoactive episode? If so please let us know so we can notify the appropriate people.
      - KentPerry
        
        Hey don't get frustrated Jeff, after all its just the two of us doing that and mine is only an imitation of you and you still thought it convincing enough to care.. That means a lot coming from you ya big Lug. Seriously I doubt I would have done the same for you. Then again, not sure anyone else would have either.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Kent, that you would not offer to help someone is of no surprise at all.
      - Esther
        
        The connections that are supposed to happen in you brain are not happening, Kent. You may need to get off Calvin for awhile.
      - Esther
        
        Re: your last sentence. I would.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The expression is rocket scientist, you loon.
      - millergroup2
        
        Direct that statement to Vladimir Jeff, you have it correct, you study well. One day soon, you will understand that God is real and admit it. You are doing a good job.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Why, Jesus is supposedly god and has existed for all time?
      - mallen11
        
        Yes He has…
        Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
        
        His instructions for Israel under the Law are different than His instructions after He fulfilled the Law on the cross when He established a new era of who will take over the spread of the gospel of salvation and how to live the Christian/spiritual way of life under the Law of Christ/grace.
        I Cor 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
        Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
        Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        But he is not the same yesterday and today.
        
        In the Ot, god says not to eat shellfish, In the NT, god says it is ok to eat shellfish.
      - mallen11
        
        Jesus Christ IS the same; His instructions are different because he fulfilled the Law and we no longer live under its rule. I know you don't get it, Jeff, but when you come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior you will know for you will be spiritually awakened through the power of the Holy Spirit.
      - Wordman
        
        Context, Jeff. Everything has a context. There is a historical context, a cultural context, the context of the dispensation in which God was dealing with man, the context of who He was dealing with at that time and the covenant under which they had relations with God, the context of the type of literature it is found in, etc. Scoffing is an arm chair sport for fools. Understanding requires an open heart and work. Some of the OT law was ceremonial and was superceded when Christ came as the fulfillment of the temple system. Some of those laws pertained only to the governance of Israel. Much of it must be understood in terms of principles rather than literalness. Paul showed, for example, that the command that thou shall not muzzle the ox that threshes the grain transmitted the principle that workers should benefit from the enterprise in which they are employed. Jesus gave an excellent summation of the law's true application to man elsewhere. But unless and until you are willing to open yourself to the reality and Lordship of Jesus Christ, all of this will seem like rubbish to you. But even an unbeliever can understand and make far more sense of these things than you are willing to do. Your game is to intentionally ignore all this, and by banking on the fact that most moderns don't understand it either, play to the cheap seats. Tactically, its wise. Ultimately it's very foolish, because deceivers go from bad to worse, sinking themselves into their own deceptions, and eventually, their own perdition.
      - Robert30
        
        Just remember you are a few on those who believe in such non-sense. Most intelligent people today do not follow the rules of a dusty old book and Hodge-podge god to lead their lives.
        We are now free to be you and me…The word of the Lord Big Bird.
      - mallen11
        
        "…and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:32
        Robert 30, you are not free until you come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You can't handle the truth,
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Jeff you need to find your calling in life. There really is more to life than being a nuisance, spouting off dribble designed to denigrate others.
      - Robert30
        
        You must suffer from a lack of self-love. Too bad.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Then you should attempt to find that in your life.
      - Esther
        
        Ph. D. Westminster, PA Gaffin … dare ya'
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Jeff, you will see that the one who cannot handle the truth is you. All in due time. A day is coming when you will understand this. There is no reason to rush anything.
      - Esther
        
        Why don't you sign up to get your doctorate Joe Anzilotti? There is an excellent seminary Westminster in PA. Jeff handles the truth perfectly well, by the way. Stop worrying so much about him.
      - mallen11
        
        Actually, Jeff, you are talking about yourself.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I almost never talk talk about myself.
      - KentPerry
        
        almost is more than anyone here talks about you. That is of course when you're not here talking AT us .
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        And that is wrong as well. Joe, among others, for example, is often asking where I am when I do not immediately post comments. No one does that about you, because no one cares one whit about your opinions.
      - KentPerry
        
        Quote:" because no one cares one whit about your opinions."
        
        Noooo No one cares at all! You are so smart! Jeff MY GOODNESS YOU GOT ME AGAIN!! Except for the fact that it has never stopped you from responding or hehe caring enough to try. I'm always flattered when you quote me too,, its the only time you say anything that makes any sense. Sorry Jeff but you still need more practice it seems
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Kent, "getting" you is one of the easiest things I do.
      - Esther
        
        I always want to know exactly where some people are and one of them is Jeffrey Dixon.
      - Esther
        
        Kent, you have the wrong man on that score. If you think Jeff is talking AT you it is invariably because you deserve it. You are one of those Calvinist who wrongly believe the rest of the world has to work as you tell them what to do. It is pretty obvious, So we have our defenses against such blatant overtures. Ha, you suggest things that you suppose hides your ulterior motives… but I can see through your layers of machinations… you really need to know they are obvious as a bright blue sky in the top of the mountains in Utah where the Saints live.
      - Robert30
        
        I have been saved by Big Bird.
      - mallen11
        
        No, Robert, I have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ and He can be your savior too.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you have not. You merely want to believe that you have been.
      - KentPerry
        
        Most people that talk as you just did,, think they are intelligent.
        
        You're not.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, "most" people do not talk that way. Since there are around 2 billion Christians and over 7 billion people, "most" people do not even think in those terms.
      - Esther
        
        look who's talking
      - Wordman
        
        Free from God… yet a slave to sin. As your years pass, if that kind of freedom brings you true peace, joy and fulfillment, if it enriches your relationships, enables you to love and be loved in all purity and goodness, then you will know that you are right and I am wrong. But if your life is increasingly characterized by disappointment, broken relationships, and joylessness, then you will be able to see that life apart from God is very bitter. In that day I hope you will remember that God is kind, willing to forgive and heal the broken that come to Him in humility. In that day I hope you will be able to call to Jesus.
      - Robert30
        
        Sorry you are late to the gate!
        I have been saved by Big Bird. He is a truly great religious symbol.
      - Wordman
        
        That's cute, Robert. When you're breathing your last, and the darkness is closing in all around you, and you can feel the demons eagerly gathering around to rip your soul from your dying body and drag you off to hell for an eternity of torment and utter loneliness, you will not be smirking or calling upon the name of Big Bird.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are a slave to your delusion.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        !!!!! The slave here is you Jeff–to "google" and "Zionica" among other things. But don't let me interfere with your silliness.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You never have and never will interfere with reality, Joe.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Additionally, the entertainment value intrinsic to your invalid conclusions Jeff, is worthy of some note. It makes one wonder how someone can be so full of themselves while he continues to ignore what is truly important in life.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        That is an interesting question. Of course, we disagree on what is important in life. And that is what is really an interesting question. You believe fables are what is important in life, I believe that the search of truth and knowledge is what is important. You will never learn anything of value. I will embrace all new information. Thank you for showing how idiotic your point of view is.
      - Wordman
        
        It's true that I am a slave. I am a bondslave of Jesus Christ. And even if this were the result of a delusion (Which it is not), at least my slavery has made a better man of me. Unlike the bondage that afflicts Richard, my slavery frees me from the need to abuse innocent children or poke my private parts up other men’s rear ends. My bondage is freeing me from my former slavery to self, has enabled me to be a faithful husband to my wife, and a more loving father to my children. It has given much greater appreciation for truth, beauty, and goodness, and has taught me to value and respect all life. My slavery to Jesus Christ has freed me from destructive addictions, enabled me to make far better sense of the world, and given me bright hope for the future. Yes, I am overjoyed with my bondage for it is making my life brighter and brighter each day.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, if you did not believe in Jesus, you would be inclined to want to abuse kids or engage in homosexual acts? Only by believing in Jesus do you want to provide for your wife and children?
        
        That is just sad.
      - Esther
        
        That is a tragic idea. I don't believe that, Jeff.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I would hope it is not accurate either. But that is how he phrased it.
      - Esther
        
        Who is Richard?
      - Esther
        
        Are you a Calvinist?
      - Wordman
        
        Actually, in America those who self-identify themselves as atheists are only 2% of the population. Those who self-identify as Christians are about 50% so who is in the minority? But in the end it doesn't change our commitment. If the whole world wants to follow a lie, we will still love the Truth.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        In the world, there are seven billion people and 2 billion identify as Christian. The puts them in the minority. And when you start subtracting all the groups that other Christians say are not "real" Christians, the numbers starts to drop dramatically. Most Protestants do not believe the Catholics are real Christians. That gets rid of a billion right there. But in the end, numbers do not make up reality. And the reality is there is no evidence for Jesus or the biblical god.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh thats GREAT that we can be so scientific about this Jeffery! Lets see if I get this straight,, now if a Catholic says a Protestant is NOT a Christian or vice versa, that gets rid of a billion right there! There ya go everyone,, all atheists have to do is just say there are no more Christians an POOF it becomes a fact recorded for the Jeffery Dixon illogical statistics in atheist mentality book in PAPERBACK AND ON AMAZON! I think there are even less atheists and I know most of us think that so it is dying out I guess. But in the end, OPINIONS about numbers don't make up reality and they sure as hell don't make an argument for dumb ass atheists who can't see the the evidence of a creator God EVERYWHERE THEY LOOK while they need a candle to see the sun.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is not the atheists that make this claim, it is your Christian brothers. If you have an issue with the idea, take it up with them.
      - KentPerry
        
        No sunshine it was YOU using it to substantiate your argument and don't think I am the only one who sees that or the way you just tried to cover it up
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        lol, there are so many Protestants on this site who state that Catholics are not real Christians, it is just absurd to try and deny it.
      - Esther
        
        I am your Christian sister KentPerry and I think YOU have BIG ISSUES! A lot of folks here agree with me also, but are afraid to come forward to confront your maniacal posts.
      - KentPerry
        
        I love how stupid atheist look whenever they equivocate their numbers to suit their stupid claims. When they are talking about their popularity and how many are becoming atheists OH WOW it's like 130 Million people but when they need some special rights because they got their witto feewings hurt by casting their eyes on the baby Jesus during a Christmas nativity scene,, OMG then they are just 10 – 20 million and that is if they can still speak their lips tend to be burned off as many other parts of their flesh seeing that nativity scene. It's like a Vampire getting stuck in the light of the son to them I tell ya it is a real sight to see. OH and when ya splash holy water on em,, they may not melt like the wicked witch of the west,, but they sure sound like she did HA HA
      - Esther
        
        Your illogical brain is showing again… you know. The one that said, "Being gay is being gay" Veritably profound!
      - KentPerry
        
        Well thats what I SAY!! Is Being Gay actually being gay? Or is being Gay actually being sad and saying you're gay ? I mean when you think about it is being gay being gay or ?? I really thin k it is better if they just said "Queer"
      - Esther
        
        This has already been addressed.
      - Esther
        
        Sure KentPerry, whatever. I think it was Jeff who said we could send for help for you. Evidently you missed Jeff's piece on the natural occurrence of homosexuals in the animal kingdom (that is, those even other than our species). Found it:
        
        Jeff Dixon replied to Vladimir
        According to the bible, being gay is an abomination. Supposedly two people of the same sex sleeping together is disgusting to the Lord. Well, this idea needs to be approached from two perspectives.The first is whether or not being gay is a natural orientation. Since I am not gay, I have no way to know if this is true or not. However, since I am not gay, I do know that I am not interested in gay sex. I also know I enjoy heterosexual sex very much. I know it is not a "choice" over this issue. It would not matter how mad I was at my parents or how many times a priest tried to have me help him be one with the Lord, I have no interest in that. Not that there is anything wrong with it, to quote Seinfeld. So, from a personal perspective, it does not seem like homosexuality is a choice.And lets be honest, the homosexual acts of anal penetration and oral sex are also performed by heterosexual couples, often with much enjoyment and gusto. Therefore, it cannot be said that these actions are homosexual acts.How about other animals? After all, gay sex is often referred to as being against nature.Sodomy has been stigmatized for century upon century, and in many cultures across the world and through time, mostly seeking to stigmatize relationships between members of the same sex. Almost invariably, when it is criminalized, those who criminalize it (or would do so) refer to it as the "crime against nature" or the "sin against nature." The presumption is that homosexual behavior is a perversion, and a uniquely human perversion, engaged in as the result of what is presumed to be a learned attraction to members of the same sex.
        There's only one problem with that assumption: None of it is true.In the approximately 1,000 to 3,000 species whose behavior has been well researched and described in the literature, approximately 450 have been shown to have clear homosexual behaviors. As we'll learn in this essay, homosexuality is not at all exclusively a western, European cultural pattern as some Christian and Muslim fundamentalists and Afrocentrists (and even some African politicians) have long maintained. It's not even unique to humans. Any homosexual behavior you care to name – anal sex, same sex kissing, long-term pair bonding between members of the same sex, courtship rituals unique to homosexual couples, all these and many more are all commonly found in the animal kingdom.http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy…Lets also look at it from a biblical concept. What does the bible say about it? I know it calls it an abomination in the OT. However, Jesus makes no reference to homosexuality being a sin in the NT. Since Jesus is supposedly God, and Christians believe he is all knowing, surely he would have made some comment on homosexuality if he felt it was a problem. Yet, he does not make any comments. However, for some reason, Christians feel this is worse than almost anything else. Which is an odd perspective given the number of gay adult videos viewed every year, compared to the actual percentage of gay people in the world. However, what other abominations does the Bible specify? Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5).Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).Charging or paying interest are abominations. Bankers and anyone with a mortgage, car loan or credit card debt will be unavailable to throw the first stone, regardless of the interest rate (Psalm 15:1-5, Jeremiah 15:10). Graven images of other gods are an abomination (Deut 7:25).Let us not forget wearing blended fabrics. Deuteronomy 22:11 forbids wearing a material made of wool and linen, but Leviticus 19:19 says it's an abomination to wear any blended material, period. Hence a woman in a man's button-down can be doubly abominable if it's a no-iron, easy care blend of cotton and polyester.Of course, when confronted with such information, there are people who will tell you that the blended fabrics abomination is really just a symbolic warning that Jews should not mix with other cultures, and that the dietary laws were set aside for Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem, and that these "other abominations" were about self-preservation, hygiene and just for Orthodox Jews anyway. In short, when something they do is shown to be an abomination, many abominators become instant anthropologists, Biblical scholars and historians as well.So why do active abominators continue to refer to the Bible when condemning homosexuals? Are such men and women unaware of their own abominations detailed in the same scriptures? Or are they simply hypocrites like so many Christians are?For myself, I am sure that these Christian people who must be full of integrity, since they are continually telling everyone this tidbit of information, once informed of their own abominable behavior, will step into the circle and accept for themselves whatever punishment they were going to hand out to others. "Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) That's the verse I recall whenever someone uses the Bible to justify a pet bias.So, as we can see, there are many things that the biblical god takes issue with. But for some reason, what Christians' focus on is homosexuality. I will avoid the easy target of saying perhaps they hate something they see in themselves and suggest that they work on accepting gay people as easily as they do with people who wear blended fabrics or men who trim their beards. END QUOTE
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        In the Old Testament, remarriage after divorce and polygamy were licit, according to the Torah. Jesus condemned them as adultery. If then, Jesus forbade polygamy when the Torah allowed it, in what way is it rational to suggest that He allowed homosexuality when the Torah forbade it. Furthermore, when the Apostles who spoke to Jesus personally condemned homosexuality as a vile affection, it is quite arrogant to contradict them by saying Jesus was fine with it.
      - Esther
        
        Andrew: Note that the issue of homosexuality in my post to which you refer is that of another commenter I referenced for KentPerry. I have never thought about it much really, but basically I oppose it on the grounds I have small children and want lots of grandchildren. Please address Jeff Dixon on your topic. He finds some very interesting things I have never heard about – homosexuality occurs in many species? What!? He shows science is behind all these discoveries. Don't forget to request his bibliographies or references. Surely, Jeff will have an answer for you. Thank you for your comment.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        If there was actually even one coherent thought in that post, can anyone point it out?
      - Elaine Schlemmer
        
        Your day is coming Robert when you will be on your knees before the Almighty you call bigbird!.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, big bird is awfully big after all.
      - Wordman
        
        Big Bird IS big but Thanksgiving is just around the corner. Emmm. Yummy.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I plan on chowing down on some turkey as well that day.
      - Esther
        
        I hardly know why I take you all so seriously!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is no reason to
      - KentPerry
        
        Already been proven and explained to this reprobate more times than anyone could count. Jeff is not interested in knowing the correct context because he simply doesn't care. He believes the lie because the lie suits his debased nature and his hatred for a God he claims doesn't exist. I have furnished links to numerous scholars that make Jeff Dixons claims, out to be the intentionally spread disinformation and obfuscation he lives for. It is his MISSION in life to deceive people with silly notions of backward butthead science like evolution creating new species when Jeff Dixon can not possibly explain evolution without using terms denoting metaphysical properties. NOT ONCE.
      - Wordman
        
        I'm responding to KentPerry's comment above, but this is for Jeff Dixon. At first I thought Perry was irrationally flaming you in anger, but after some reflection I believe that he is speaking sober truth. You often show yourself capable of logic and expression, but, but I recall numerous instances where particular claims you were making were so easily and soundly refuted that you ceased attempting to defend them at those times. Then, shortly thereafter you're back with the same stuff. You really are not honest in your argumentation. You probably think you are, or you rationalize that it is okay to use half truths and misinformation in service of what you see as a larger truth. You've accused Christians of "lying for Jesus" (and unfortunately too many do that, and I certainly don't defend it.), but you seem to think nothing of lying against God on a regular basis. Can you ever hope to help others arrive at reality or even get there yourself if you constantly traffic in falsehood? I don't think you would be willing to embrace God if He was proven to you beyond any reasonable doubt. Until you change this basic orientation (and we are incapable of doing this apart from the intervention of God's sovereign grace) you will be incapable of anything but destructiveness here. You say that you are here to help others know the truth, but your are profoundly UNtruthful. With all due respect, you, sir, are a fake.
        
        I want to renew an invitation I've made to you in the past. I'm not asking you to openly consent to this proposal, but I hope you might do so privately: You can, if you dare, dare to doubt your doubts. You don't have to abandon them altogether, but, as I did years ago, lay your doubts down long enough to call out to a God Who you don't yet, yea, CAN'T YET, know is there. Humbly ask that, IF He is there, He would mercifully reveal Himself to you. Since this God I am speaking of is the rightful Lord of all, and rightfully resists the proud, it is important that one come with the willingness to surrender all, should God reveal Himself.
        
        "At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes. 'Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight. 'All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 'Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 'Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and YOU SHALL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 'For My yoke is easy, and My load is light.' "
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Wordman, your comment is nonsensical. There are times when the debate moves on to new topics, but there has never been a time when my comments have been refuted, I understand your desire that it be true, but wishes are not reality.
      - Wordman
        
        You’ve NEVER been refuted? Really??? In all of the hundreds of contests you've had here, you've never been bested even once? Now I might be wrong, but you’re personal rating of your own success ratio might be just a teensy bit too high. No one bats 1000, Jeff. I'll admit that your no slouch when it comes to polemics, but I've seen you shut down a number of times. You can say that you just "moved on" but I think you might be inclined to find other things to do when you find yourself in a corner. The evidence suggests that you have difficulty admitting defeat.
        As for your conclusion that God can not possibly exist in order for you to call out to Him, I believe you might again be overestimating your own abilities just a bit. Let’s see: In comparison to what science tells us about time and space you’ve existed for a couple of micro seconds as a microscopic speck on another microscopic speck floating around in an infinitely large universe, having very limited sensory and cognitive assets in four dimensions in an existence which even you would admit is likely to contain many more. And you’ve searched it all out and can say with absolute certainty that there is absolutely zero possibility of there being a God around somewhere? Pure, cold logic should tell you that such a conclusion is impossible for a puny creature like you to make. The Creator would reasonably be greater than His creation. Given the seemingly unimaginable vastness and complexity of the universe, you and I figuring out God on our own would be more difficult than a bug under a rock trying to comprehend the full details behind the roar of a passing 747. Just as the bug would require human-like abilities to search out the workings of a 747, without divine help only a man with god-like abilities would be able to look at the creation and figure out the truth about God.
        Or, there might be a god after all and his name is Jeff.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        How many times has an atheist refuted what you believe?
      - Wordman
        
        Okay. We're arguing about semantics. By "refuted" I meant that you did not seem able to provide a suitable reply to someone's argument against you. And about the rest?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What about the rest? I have never said it is impossible for there to be a god. I have said the biblical god is an impossibility. The attributes associated with the biblical god are mutually exclusive. I have said there is no evidence for any gods existing. If there was actual evidence, people would not believe by faith. They would point to evidence.
        
        And no, I do not believe myself to be a god. What an absolutely ludicrous thing to say.
      - Wordman
        
        Not truthful, Jeff. Why are you saying that you spoke about there being no evidence for God’s existence? You didn’t say anything about evidence. Check and see. You said, "One cannot lie against a non-existent deity." You stated with ABSOLUTE certainty that God was "non-existent." My post that you were reacting to was urging you to consider suspending disbelief long enough to call out to God just in case he MIGHT be there. Since you deny any possibility of God's existence and state your denial in absolute terms, I can only assume that you imagine yourself to have omniscient qualities. Thus saith the all knowing Jeff, THERE IS NO GOD AND NEITHER CAN THERE BE ANY.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Completely truthful. The biblical god cannot exist because his attributes cannot co-exist. That does not preclude the possibility of there being some other detity in the universe. However, there is no evidence of it.
      - Wordman
        
        Sorry, had to go to work and finally got back to this. Okay, I’ll bite – Please tell me of your supposed contradiction in God’s attributes. And concerning lack of evidence for ANY deity in the universe, since when can one argue conclusively from nothing? I would add that there is ABUNDANT evidence for a deity (as you say). The existence of creation unavoidable implies the existence of a creator. I’ve asked you this before but never got a satisfactory answer – If you were walking through the woods and found a fully functional smart phone sitting on the ground, would you conclude that time and chance produced it? No, you would look at the obvious complexity and order of the device and rightly reason that an intelligent agent had produced it. So, when we look at the universe, and at the living systems that exist on the Earth, things that exhibit far, far greater complexity and order than any human communications device, why should we not conclude that these things had an intelligent designer?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Posting a comment is not the same as proving anything, you loon.
      - Robert30
        
        Does this mean I shall have to forgo my clam chowder tonight and my lobster?
        What about my fav pants that are made of polyester and cotton.
        I am obviously in big trouble as I also intend on serving a roast suckling pig for our huge Halloween celebrations.
        Happy Samhain to all.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Enjoy them all
      - millergroup2
        
        Jeff, where does it say: "The bible says eating shellfish or wearing blended fabrics are abominations as well". ?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
        9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
        10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
        11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
        12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
        
        It does not specifically say that wearing blended fabrics is an abomination, however, it tell us not to do it. And breaking gods law is a sin. And sin is an abomination.
      - millergroup2
        
        We have to take the bible's language verbatim Jeff. God is teaching that foods are harmful in some cases. People were getting sick. They did not have the privilege of science yet to protect them. God also told them that if they discovered a "cracked" clay pot, to throw it away, that to use it was an abomination. God had rules like this to protect them from their lack of scientific knowledge. (But God knew). The crack in the pot held bacteria. (harmful). But if your read carefully….. Leviticus 19 says that eating of that type of fish would be an abomination to "YOU" not God. Abomination here meaning UNSAFE.
        
        We are not now bound by these enactments. Our Lord made all meats clean, Mar_7:19, r.v. Peter was bidden to kill and eat all manner of creeping things, and his protest was overborne by the assurance that God had cleansed all. See Act_10:11-16. Religion consists not in outward rites, but in the inward temper. See Heb_9:10. Note that touching was forbidden, because the least contact with evil hurts the soul.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Except for the reality that all meat is not clean today. Some animals carry rabies which can kill people if we eat that meat. Some fish have poison in their internal organs and people have died eating them. I have already shown you the number of other foods that people are allergic too. You mentioned yourself that your wife and daughter are allergic to shellfish. If a god magically changed all meat to be safe for people, he did a lousy job of it.
      - millergroup2
        
        Jeff, he said he made them clean, releasing and full filling the law. Not fixing, by some magical way. But, still you want to put words and interpretation where it is not needed. Now go back and read the book, not as a bunch of demanding rules, but as a guideline. If God would have explained the effects of harmful bacteria then, no one would have understood. Just accept the enlightened context and learn. You spend a lot of time with the "buts"
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, he made them clean so that man could eat all meat, yet we are unable to eat all meat. Right. Got it, clear as mud. Rather like he corrected the problem of people sinning by killing everyone in the world except for seven people. Then those seven people started immediately sinning and having more kids who sinned. His solution is akin to a baker who has a bad batch of yeast, So he it throws almost all of it away and then starts making bread with the same bad yeast, only to be surprised that new beard is just as bad as the old bread. Yet, we are supposed to believe that this deity is perfect and the most intelligent thing in the universe.
        
        And going back to Noah, why did his family get a pass? According to the fable, only Noah is righteous. The rest of humanity was filled with wickedness. That means that the other six family members were also full of wickedness. Yet, while god kills everyone else on the planet, including one week old infants, these six people get a pass. Now, if you believe that one week old infants were capable of more wickedness than these six people, you are more delusional than I ever thought.
        
        And Noah, this amazing righteous man that god blesses, what does he do as soon as the waters abate? Why he gets drunk and exposes himself. What an incredible display of righteous.
      - millergroup2
        
        Again you spend worthless time speaking of your fables. Noah built that boat stick by stick, no one really knows just how long it took. As Noah built the boat, he told others what he was doing, and he invited them aboard. All refused, and all laughed (just like you do). The parent holds the responsibility of protecting their children. The children drowned because of their parents choice to ridicule Noah. Noah's family made the right choice, they lived. Next contradiction please…………………………..
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Lol, there is so much of this fable that is absurd, it is hard to know where to start. But Noah could not have built that boat in a thousand years and make it float.
        
        The physics of Noah's Ark are impossible. The flexibility of the wood being used opens gaps wide enough to dump hundreds of gallons of water a minute into the "ship."
        
        As a ship that large floats, there are tremendous strains and stresses over its length, and wood is flexible enough to make it impossible to keep the hull together. Wood is fairly flexible when subjected to large strains – trees caught in torrential floods bend and don't break. It's why wooden ships only reached certain sizes during real-life world history, bigger ships had to be made out of steel.
        
        Even many of the largest wood ships (still mucho smaller than the ark! According to the Biblical description, it was a barge roughly the size that would fit inside of one of our football stadiums!) built by master shipwrights at the peak of the shipbuilding art required numerous pumps and countermeasures to avoid sinking.
        
        Here's one reason large wooden ships have a limit: Hogging.
        
        From that site:
        
        "Until the 1920's a large percentage of the world's shipping consisted of large wooden ships and their plague, after plain old rot, was "hog". A ship floating quietly in still water is subjected to external forces. These are the weight of the vessel on its cargo (downwards) and the buoyancy force (upwards). Archimedes showed us that for a floating vessel, these two forces must be equal in magnitude. For a floating rectangular piece of wood, they are also equal in distribution. For most normally shaped ships, the distribution is not equal. For example, when an empty ship has more weight (relatively heavy structure, engines and equipment) in the ends, and more buoyancy in the middle. This "excess" of buoyancy in the middle cause the middle to rise up and the ends to bend down — a hog in profile. The opposite condition is sagging. For old wooden ships, this resulted in a long term, plastic deformation. The total curvature could be a meter or more in larger vessels. Some vessels like the Wapama hogged so much that they nearly broke in two. Hogging is no longer the problem it was in the 1920's when it threatened the nation's merchant fleet — because those ships have sunk!
        
        "Wooden ships, even wooden warships like USS Constitution, are actually quite weak even when new. Although solid shot may have ricocheted from their sides, they are generally unable, over time, to resist the fairly small forces they are subjected to moored in still water. There is a false idea that amazingly still has some following, that wooden ships were strong because they would flex. In fact, relative movement between structural members allows fresh water to enter the hull structure, carrying rot fungus spores deep inside.
        
        "Engineers have often attempted to analyze the structures of wooden ships as if they were homogeneous box girders. This is a common misapplication of beam theory. Actually, a wooden ship, especially as it ages, more closely resembles a rather weakly bound bundle of reeds. These reeds are free to slide past each other. If traditionally built wooden ships were box girders, then one would expect to see many tensile failures amidships in the upper deck of a severely hogged vessel; however, this is not the case. Failures in longitudinal structure are infrequent and tend to be scattered almost uniformly throughout the vessel. The idea of "strength decks" or "extreme fiber" is largely irrelevant to the meaningful analysis of old wooden ships. Microscopic investigation reveal a generally low level of stress in "hogged" structural members. There often is evidence of plastic behavior, creep, around fastenings. Large overall deflections in the hull can be achieved with a very small amount of creep around the fastenings.
        
        "The bundle of reeds metaphor implies that the ship is comparatively poor at resisting longitudinal loads due to a weakness in shear. Wooden ships are generally stiffer in lateral loading since the transverse frames are like individual beams. As a vessel ages and softens, even these relatively stiff beams can suffer large creep deflections. USS Constellation is an extreme example of an old, soft wooden ship and probably has large lateral deflections as well as hog — behaving more like a wet wicker basket than a bundle of reeds. Pushing up on the bottom of the basket causes the sides to bulge out and the bilges to drop. This is evidently the case since the keel has deflected over two feet and there is much less curvature in the upper decks. The vessel is also soft transversely. That is apparent from the curvature of the gun deck which is hogged in several distinct undulations. The upward force on the bottom comes from an unequal distribution of the weight and buoyancy forces on the vessel. In a newer, stiffer vessel it is possible to minimize this net force by the judicious placement of ballast both longitudinally and transversely in the bottom of the vessel.
      - millergroup2
        
        Take a gander at this site: http://biblicalgeology.net/
        Interesting reading, if you get the time. The info you supplied concerning the Ark is certainly controversial to say the least. There is a wealth of evidence to the contrary. The one who created the universe also created the complex architecture of the Ark. Our understanding of science has only just begun. Granted we are learning at an accelerated pace, but the more we learn, the more complex it becomes. So complex it reveals facts of Biblical accounts, also at an accelerated pace.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I picked one item at random, it was about glass houses. Here is what is states.
        
        "To understand what happened, you need to disregard the dates that conventional geologists give for these events. The dates they quote (of 25 million years for the volcanic eruptions) are based on assumptions that ignore the catastrophic processes associated with the Flood.
        
        So, to accept anything they are saying, one must dismiss out of hand what actual scientists say about the issue. How shocking, that is what all Creationists say.
      - millergroup2
        
        Couldn't find it. Post the link. I wanna see it in context.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        http://biblicalgeology.net/Geological-Histories/The-Glass-House-Mountains.html
      - Esther
        
        Excellent
      - Esther
        
        LOL millergroup2 said, "…you want to put words and interpretation where it is not needed…" That's rich. It's exactly what you do in following sentence, i.e. you proceed in telling how to do just that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        millergroup2 • 11 hours ago • parent
        −
        Jeff Dixon: We have to take the bible's language verbatim
        
        Really? You take this literally?
        
        Deuteronomy 23:1New International Version (NIV)
        23 [a]No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.
      - millergroup2
        
        Not sure of what you mean here. This is what I read:
        (Deu 23:23 NIV) Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I quoted Deuteronomy 23:1, not Deu 23:23
      - millergroup2
        
        Verbatim? Yes sir, word for word. The trick for the finite is to keep it in context, or the meaning of the text will go something like this:
        there once was a man who, in order to seek God’s will for
        his life, was fond of opening up his Bible and reading whatever verse
        he first laid his eyes on, so that he might obey it. One day, as this
        man was going through a particularly difficult time with his family, he
        sought the Lord for guidance. Opening his Bible and pointing, he found
        his finger resting on the second part of Matthew 27:5, which read “Then Judas went out and hanged himself.”
        Puzzled by the Lord’s directions, but still hungry for a word from God,
        he called a “do-over” and flipped to another page, where his eyes fell
        on the latter half of Luke 10:37: “Jesus told him, ‘Go and do likewise.’”
        Flustered, but chalking it up to coincidence, the man decided to give
        his method one last chance. Saying a quick prayer, he flipped the pages
        and inserted his finger between two of them, pointing to the end of John 13:27. There, staring up at him, were these words: “‘What you are about to do, do quickly,’ Jesus told him.”
        
        Put it into context and ypou get something like this:
        
        Consider Deuteronomy 23:1-8.
        (Note that in the Torah this may be Deuteronomy 23:2-9 due to
        different chapter parsing.) These verses primarily discuss who is or is
        not allowed to join the “assembly of the Lord.” For clarification, the
        “assembly of the Lord” probably means the group of elders and priests
        who serve in leadership roles for a community, similar to the usage of
        “assembly” in Leviticus 4:13-15.
        
        Like the restriction for priests in Leviticus 21:16-23, in Deuteronomy 23:1 we see:
        “No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.” NIVWhy?
        Is this to prevent people with defects from being close to God? No,
        sin would have to be worse than physical defects to God, and we know
        that all have sinned (Romans 3:23).
        Is it that God thinks that testosterone is critical to leadership?
        Maybe. Or, it could be that God wants a little more collateral for His
        leaders, like progeny; generations to punish or bless based on your
        actions. The latter idea is somewhat supported in the verses that
        follow.
        ponderingtruth.blogspot.com
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, you take it word for word and then try to attempt explain what those words might mean????
        
        For clarification, the
        “assembly of the Lord” probably means the group of elders and priests
        who serve in leadership roles for a community, similar to the usage of
        “assembly” in Leviticus 4:13-1
        
        Is it that God thinks that testosterone is critical to leadership?
        Maybe. Or, it could be that God wants a little more collateral for His
        leaders, like progeny; generations to punish or bless based on your
        actions. The latter idea is somewhat supported in the verses that
        follow.
        
        In other words, there is nothing actually known, but that does not prevent enthusiastic believers from trying to help make useless verses say something relevant.
    - Robert30
      
      Why not? Does it bother you or have anything to do with you?
      - Elaine Schlemmer
        
        Robert you are SICK, and the only animal that i know of is the GOAT.
  - KentPerry
    
    ne doesn’t have to have religious reasons to be against Homosexual Marriage however. Common sense and an interest in doing what’s best for the society as a whole, is what all Governments are supposed to do and not placate the sexual interests, and behaviors of homosexuals by capitulating to the whims of this same selfish, self-centered, self serving indulgence of theirs.
    
    What Homosexuals are asking of us, is to allow couples, whose sexual bent for the same gender suddenly requires the rest of us Americans, risk increased health care premiums for the spread of MRSA and HIV / AIDS, which homosexuals, are STILL at a 70% higher risk of getting, according to the latest statistics by the CDC.
    
    Yes Homosexuals are notorious for extorting agreement out of small Business which creates a pent up rage and resentment that we are just now hearing about as the Karmic pendulum begins to finally swing the other way and it’s about time when we see so many in the Homosexual community including their atheist supporters, like Jeff, the philosopher kings of science. While they work feverishly to lobby all fifty states to lower age of consent laws, they hang around the discussion boards spewing their butt stupid reductionist social darwinist fables that frog can turn into a handsome prince, (given enough time) he repeats the same bilge about not seeing any physical evidence anywhere, that God created everything. NONE whatsoever. But to believe such an idea is true, one must consider that it is just as likely, some superior being created all matter and if that were true, if God created all physical matter, People like Jeff would have nothing to compare it to.
    
    Jeff Dixon, someone who obviously thinks he and his queer atheist clique, are smarter than us, so much more advanced, they piss glitter and fart rainbows. The problem with Jeff's evidence, if God did in fact create all Matter is, that Jeff would simply have no idea what physical matter NOT made by God,
    
    would even look like.
    - Esther
      
      Please stop with your hatred, Kent! It is unbecoming an officer.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is pretty standard for a psychopath
      - KentPerry
        
        Esther don't flatter yourself I don't hate Jeff or gays,, But Jeff?? HA HA He isn't that damned important sweetheart .. BUT HE IS FUNNY in a very STUPID sort of way
      - Esther
        
        KentPerry, you are psychotic. And that is not funny.
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov definition accessed 102112::
        Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes: False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions)
      - Esther
        
        I don't mean to flatter myself, but if that is what you construe I am doing to stand by someone who is being so demeaned, go right ahead and think that. Again, you demonstrate you puny knowledge of the fact that we are all important. If you are a military man, you should realize that as stated in the U. S. Constitution, else you should never have served. Why else would you put yourself in harm's way, if indeed you did.? BTW, is that the problem? Go ahead, tell me, a little honesty is called for here, don't you think so?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      According to the "logic" that Kent is displaying, we should not be concerned for homosexuals because they engage in behaviors that make them more at risk for disease.
      
      However, homosexuals are not the only group that does this. So, based on his "logic" that we should not be concerned for groups that engage in risky behaviors, I assume that based on the information of problems that other groups experience, we should disregard them as well?
      
      The 2010 CDC report shows blacks are eight times more likely to get HIV than whites, meaning that 1 in 22 black Americans will be diagnosed with the AIDS virus in their lifetime. Black people are way more likely to get the virus that causes AIDS than Caucasians, Hispanics or Asians.http://www.bvblackspin.com/2010/10/15/blacks-8-times-more-likely-to-get-hiv/ Sickle cell anemia is a hereditary disorder that mostly affects people of African ancestry, but also occurs in other ethnic groups, including people who are of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern descent. More than 70,000 Americans have sickle cell anemia. And about 2 million Americans – and one in 12 African Americans – have sickle cell trait (this means they carry one gene for the disease, but do not have the disease itself). http://www.themedicalquestions.com/ge/0R3502042010.html Blacks who smoke up to a pack a day are far more likely than whites who smoke similar amounts to develop lung cancer, suggesting genes may help explain the racial differences long seen in the disease, researchers say.The largest study ever done on the subject also found that Hispanic and Asian smokers were less likely than black smokers to develop the disease — at least up to a point. The racial differences disappeared among heavy smokers, or those who puffed more than a pack and a half per day.The study involved more than 180,000 people, more than half of them minorities. Patients filled out questionnaires about their smoking habits, diet and other personal information.Researchers from USC and University of Hawaii analyzed lung cancer cases over an eight-year period. After adjusting for diet, education and other factors, the researchers found that whites who smoked up to a pack a day had a 43% to 55% lower risk of lung cancer than blacks who smoked the same amount. Hispanics and Japanese-Americans were 60% to 80% less likely than blacks to develop the disease.http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-01-25-ethnicity-cancer_x.htm A new Alzheimer's report shows African Americans are two times more likely to develop Alzheimer's than whites.And Hispanics are one and a half times more likely to develop the disease.http://www.thegrio.com/health/alzheimers-effects-minorities-more-than-whites.php A 2007 special report released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, reveals that approximately 8,000 — and, in certain years, as many as 9,000 African Americans are murdered annually in the United States. This chilling figure is accompanied by another equally sobering fact, that 93% of these murders are in fact perpetrated by other blacks. The analysis, supported by FBI records, finds that in 2005 alone, for example, African Americans accounted for 49% of all homicide victims in the US — again, almost exclusively at the hands of other African Americans. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/race-wars-part-1-the-shocking-data-on-black-on-black-crime/ On November 13, 2007, the Center for Disease Control (CDC) did a press release in order to give its findings on the 2006 Sexually Transmitted Disease Surveillance Report. This report is an annual one in which the CDC discusses STD trends according to an individual's race and sex in reference to the general population. This year the information was given by John Douglas, the director of CDC's Division of Sexually Transmitted Disease Prevention. Sadly, for 2006, he found that the occurrences of STDs tend to be much higher amongst Blacks versus Whites.
      The CDC found that in 2006 three STDs occurred more often with Blacks than Whites. The STDs in concern are gonorrhea, syphilis and chlamydia.The break down goes as follows:* The occurrence of gonorrhea in Blacks was 18 times higher than with Whites.* The occurrence of syphilis in Blacks was roughly 6 times higher than with Whites.* The occurrence of chlamydia in Blacks was 8 times higher than with Whites. http://voices.yahoo.com/stds-affect-blacks-more-than-whites-663992.html A new study has revealed that black girls are 50 percent more likely than white girls to suffer from the eating disorder bulimia.
      
      The findings of the study led by researchers from University of Southern California, University of Maryland and Universitat de Autonoma Barcelona, Spain, challenge the widespread perception that bulimia primarily affects the privileged.
      
      Asian-African girls, in particular, were found to be suffering the eating disorder.
      
      http://www.medindia.net/news/Bulimia-Affects-Black-Girls-More-Than-Whites-48942-1.htm
      
      Multiple sclerosis is a disease that usually affects more Caucasians that African Americans. But recent studies suggest that for those blacks that are afflicted by MS tend to have a disease that progresses faster and does not respond that well to available therapies as compared to MS that affects whites.Neurology researchers from the University of Buffalo studied around 567 MS patients. During the course of the study, the researchers found out through Magnetic Resonance Images of the brain showed that blacks with MS develop more damage to brain tissue and had less normal white and gray brain matter as compared to whites afflicted with the same disease.According to Bianca Weinstock-Guttman, MD, director at the Baird Multiple Sclerosis Center in Kaleida Health’s Buffalo General Hospital and associate professor at the UB School of Medicine and the study’s lead author, "Black patients showed more brain tissue damage and accumulated brain lesions faster than whites, along with rapid clinical deterioration."http://www.msnews.com/health/diseases-conditions/multiple-sclerosis/blacks-suffer-more-severe-ms-symptoms-than-whites/ Black adults developed heart failure at a rate 20 times higher than did whites, even dying of it decades before the condition typically strikes whites, in a large multicenter study of the causes of heart disease, researchers reported.Heart failure typically occurs in the elderly and is rare in young adults. Researchers did not expect to see much of it among the 5,115 young blacks and whites, evenly split along racial and sex lines, that they had been following to learn about causes of heart disease. But after 20 years, 27 participants in the study had developed heart failure, all but one of them black. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E07E7D61F3BF93AA25750C0A96F9C8B63
      - KentPerry
        
        According to my logic we shouldn't care ? Jeff shove your idea about my logic up your colon where ya get all your logic from UNLESS YOU CAN CITE THE QUOTE OF ME SAYING WE SHOULDN'T CARE, BUT YOU CAN'T!
        
        SO ILL DO YOU A FAVOR. HOSS AND MAKE ONE OF THE VERY FEW POSTS YOU HAVE EVER MADE HERE, AN HONEST ONE. OK?
        
        Now Jefferyness,, If you think it is so important,, then,, YOU can care all you like and if you really are so excited about guys who like to drive their sex organ into some other guys bowels, so rife with that erotic sexuallly exciting scent of human excrement and so delightfully healthy such an exquisite turn on to cast your eyes on as you wash the fecal foul smelling stench off that silly little appendage dangling between your moldy undulating thighs,, Then, Yes Jeff THIS IS CERTAINLY THE SAME KIND OF SITUATION! SO BE MY GUEST JEFF! HAVE AT IT BUTCH! GO TO THE THE GAY BATH HOUSES AND LET A DOZEN OR MORE GUYS, MOST OF WHOM HAVE JUST BEEN WITH THREE OR FOUR ALREADY ACCORDING TO DOCUMENTED STUDIES, AND LET EM BEND YOUR BIG FAT DUMB ASS OVER AND POUND YOU TILL YOU SQUEAL LIKE NED BEATTY IN DELIVERANCE!!
        
        But when something happens and ya get sick, BE ADVISED:
        
        DON'T EXPECT ME TO CARE, MUCH LESS PAY FOR YOUR MEDICAL BILLS OK COMMIE BOY!
        
        THOSE who get sickle cell DON'T ASK FOR IT and THOSE in africa all those woman with HIV/AIDS, DIDN'T ASK FOR IT, THEY WERE RAPED!
        
        All that other garbage you post means what? That I should change my opinion?? HA HA HA Those other illnesses you try to pass off as a logical comparison I won't even bother with Jeffery, I have said enough already for anyone to figure out why you are such an obnoxious antagonist and such complete MORON who can't win an argument on these boards if his pathetic useless and pointless life depended on it but I can tell you YOUR eternal life DOES if you ever shut up and listen long enough to understand where you're gonna spend it because I can assure you,, where you are headed right now, if you dropped dead right this second,, YOU ARE TOAST!
        
        I mean BURNT TOAST.
        
        So laugh all you like and try to impress everyone how you showed up that "xtian" on Zionica,, all your godless atheists will high five ya! and none of that will matter an iota to me.
        
        SO SMART GUY, YOU MAN LOVIN BUTT PIRATE ! HAVE A GOOD TIME DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE JEFF! YOU ALWAYS HAVE NEW LEVELS OF STUPID I CAN EXPLOIT AND WE BELIEVERS LOVE WHEN YOU ATHEIST'S PROVE WHY GOD IS SO OBLIVIOUS TO YOU, AS THE HEALTH RISKS ARE FOR MALE SODOMITES. SO TAKE YOUR AGENDA FOR THEIR FAGGOT EDUCATION AND YOUR ACCESS TO OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WITH YOUR QUEER AGENDA AND YOUR PROPENSITY FOR TARGETING SMALL BOYS INCLUDING YOUR SUGGESTION WE SHOULD GIVE A RATS ASS AND SHOVE IT!
        
        GOT IT!
        
        SPLENDID! We can all resume our regularly scheduled activities.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        KentPerry • 10 minutes ago • parent−According to my logic we shouldn't care ? Jeff shove your idea about my logic up your colon where ya get all your logic from UNLESS YOU CAN CITE THE QUOTE OF ME SAYING WE SHOULDN'T CARE, BUT YOU CAN'T!
        
        So sorry to disappoint, but shoving things up the colon seems to be a focus only you are concerned with.
        However, as with many of your idiotic posts, the answer lies within your post.
        
        Kent says: "Common sense and an interest in doing what’s best for the society as a whole, is what all Governments are supposed to do and not placate the sexual interests, and behaviors of homosexuals by capitulating to the whims of this same selfish, self-centered, self serving indulgence of theirs."
        
        "DON'T EXPECT ME TO CARE, MUCH LESS PAY FOR YOUR MEDICAL BILLS OK COMMIE BOY!"
        
        So, we have your specific and exact quote stating you do not care. Now if you want to try and pretend to explain how this means you are actually concerned about gay people, knock yourself out.
      - KentPerry
        
        Governments shouldn't care either YOU'RE RIGHT AGAIN JEFF but I am not a Government
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you are a meaningless and useless piece of human flotsam.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Terms of endearment by "Jeffrey" (per Doc Esther) again. He is big on calumniation, just like the Doc.
      - Esther
        
        You are attacking ad hominem again, Mr. Joe Anzilotti. Not professional even for a would-be Calvin preacher.
        
        ad hominem/ˈad ˈhämənəm/Adverb:(of an argument or reaction) Arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.accessed 102112: https://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem+define&oq=ad+hominem+define&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=c
      - Esther
        
        But you are a Calvinist and that is a pretty close want-to-be elitist, for the reign of The Calvin, a theocracy… still trying to take hold, aren't ya', Kent?
  - Evermyrtle
    
    In one respect you are correct, approaching it from two perspectives. These two perspectives:
    1. GOD'S perspective
    2. Satan's perspective
    
    Since GOD created the entire universe and everything in it, the one who should rule is GOD but because he gives us a choice to live for HIM or for Satan HE is not ruling but He is watching all thing going on. Mankind is so weak and evil, Satan seems to be winning, but I promise that in the end GOD will win, when HE decides the evil has gone as far as HE will allow it.HIS SON JESUS CHRIST IS COMING BACK AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. There will bo no turning back then.
    
    There has always been anti-GOD people who think they can take the Bible apart and explain it so that it will line up with Satan's desire but they only are wasting their time.
    GOD give HIS people the understanding they need and you can not change what GOD speaks to HIS children.
Wordman

It was Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  According to Jewish history, it was actually Adam and Lilith before it was Adam and Eve. And Lilith ran away from Adam. So, trying to play that card is silly.
  - Wordman
    
    The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isa 40:8
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      The history of the bible shows that to be demonstrably wrong.
      - Wordman
        
        " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1Co 2:14
      - Robert30
        
        Whatever you say sweetie but you are still incorrect.
      - Wordman
        
        How so?
      - Robert30
        
        Now how can you make that statement. You will soon be castigated by those who will use the circular reasoning they have been taught to discredit your statements.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        They may attempt, but they cannot succeed
      - KentPerry
        
        I kinda hope you're right Jeff Dixon. hehe
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am always right, Kent. Isn't that your idiotic refrain?
      - Esther
        
        There is hope for you, Kent.
      - Wordman
        
        And what "history" would that be?
      - Wordman
        
        Still waiting. What? Empty rhetoric?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Many Christians believe that the words of the New Testament are set in stone. But scholars at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary are chronicling just how much those words have evolved over time.
        For 11 years, they've combed through the earliest Greek manuscripts of each book in the New Testament and found more than 17,000 pages of variations. Their ultimate goal: the world's first comprehensive, searchable online database showing how the New Testament has changed.
        The database is already up. The first explanations go live this fall with two books of the New Testament — Philippians and First Peter.
        Now, scholars have known about many of these variations for years, but some of the changes might surprise many Christians.
        How Mark's and John's Stories Changed
        
        Take the story of Christ's resurrection. As the gospel of Mark tells it, on the third day after the crucifixion, Jesus rose from the tomb and appeared to various people, including his disciples.
        But Bill Warren, the professor leading the project, tells weekends on All Things Considered host Guy Raz that in the original manuscripts for Mark, the story of Jesus visiting the disciples is nowhere to be found.
        "We actually have more than one ending in the manuscripts, and then we have some with no ending," Warren explains, "So what we think probably happened there is that as soon as you see the other Gospels with the resurrection stories, early in the 2nd century at least, someone says, 'You know, we need to put some of this material into Mark to round it off better.' "
        Warren points to another significant change in the gospel of John: In the earliest manuscripts, he says, John did not include Jesus challenging a mob that's about to stone a woman accused of adultery with the now-famous line: "Let any among you who is without sin cast the first stone."
        The professor says that the story was probably inserted into the book of John somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd centuries.
        "The early church canonized books and not stories," he says, "and so when they had authentic stories from Jesus in the oral tradition that was circulating, they had to find a way to put it in the text. And so the church is trying to save this story even though its not part of John."
        
        http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-evolved-over-the-centuries
      - Wordman
        
        To Jeff Dixon — Yes, I know that the Bible did not fall from the sky leather bound with gold-edged pages, red letters, maps, concordances, and a little ribbon. I have studied the history of the cannon, the discipline of textual criticism including the so called "higher criticism," and I am aware that these things are ongoing. I have looked into all of this extensively and occasionally check in to see what's new.
        Studied Christians know about these things. Though this occasionally raises challenging questions, and as in all areas of theological enquiry, there are aberrant views and heretical characters lurking about to cast doubt and confusion, we take away from this something very different than you do. You want to tell everyone that all this proves the Bible is a ridiculous product of human imagination rather than the Word of God. In doing this you first of all intentionally ignore the fact that the claim of inerrancy is not made for the translations but for the original autographs. And you often pretend to believe many other falsehoods in order to distort and ridicule the Bible.
        For us, our confidence in the Bible is strengthened, rather than weakened by knowing that the Bible is far and away the most scrutinized book in history. We are strengthened to know that the Bibles we hold in our hands, though not perfect, are the products of untold man-years of careful scholarship and are as accurate and reliable as they need to be. We are encouraged to know, for example, that the copy of Isaiah found among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran was almost identical to the Hebrew texts copied 1000 years later! No other work of antiquity has proven to be preserved with such fidelity over time. No other document of antiquity is supported by a fraction of ancient textual sources that scholars have used for the Bible. No other religious text has been so attacked and yet been so well substantiated time after time by archeology and extra-Biblical scholarship. Entire books have been written explaining the many amazing evidences that support the veracity of the Bible and I could not possibly cover it all here. If I thought you were an honest seeker, I would commend to you the works of Josh McDowel, such as "Evidence that Demands a Verdict," "The Bible, Why I Trust It,"and other excellent books that catalog the amazing facts about the Bible’s trustworthiness
        Morever, it is an article of faith among us that the God Who was able to give perfect utterance to the men who wrote the Bible, is also able to preserve His word in sufficiently accurate form that we can know what He intended us to know from it. I could also say that the major teachings of the Bible are repeated so if one translation gets it a little off in one place, there are other verses that bring it back in focus. . But like Jesus Christ, the living Word, the perfect written word of God found in the Bible was sent to us contained within limitations of human form. In the case of the Bible this means human language and human literary conventions. Yet, just as divinity transcended the human form in the man, Jesus, so the written communication of God transcends the limitations of human language without removing those limitations.
        So, though God could have chosen to do it differently, to receive the message we must be able to read (as a minium), to understand normal historical/grammatical rules, and ordinary conventions of human communication including all of contextual considerations, the conventions of the various types of literature that are employed etc. Had God sent His Son to earth in heavenly form, His glory and power would COMPEL belief. God instead chose to send his Living Message to mankind as a plain man, lowly in birth, unimpressive in earthly station, and scandalous in His death. Yet for those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear," the holiness and power of God are clearly seen and heard in Him. So it is with God’s written message. Divine perfection contained in something far less compelling.
      - Esther
        
        Be patient, Wordman.
    - Robert30
      
      Only in your belief. There are many gods and many religions to follow those gods so prepare for the flood rushing to you.
  - Robert30
    
    Please don't confuse these people with another player. They claim to know their bible from cover to cover and if you find one who can tell you about Lilith we would be surprised.
    The whole Lilith thing is most interesting. Many books about her but those here will never read them.
    - KentPerry
      
      Robert30 those here will never read them? As if we did it would magically open our eyes eh Robbie?? Many have read them, but most are not interested in Pagan fables and stupid games
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, they prefer Christian and Jewish fables.
  - KentPerry
    
    YOU are silly Jeff Dixon. Of course that is a statement you have heard all too often yet still arrogant enough to dismiss it and for the benefit of saving time for all those reading your sophomoric attempts to look like you know what you are talking about,, I will make post in the interest of clearing up any of your usual mistakes you have had corrected numerous times but simply reject. Not because you want to be wrong,, no no no,, you want OTHERS to be wrong but that implies anyone would find your petty sophistry and mindless machinations to manipulate young minds, credible.
    
    You are not and nor have you ever been anything but a liar here.
    
    Lilith comes from a now defunct game called Vampire: The Masquerade. So these "modern-day" vampires are people buying a rule book for a game? The rest of the passage is a gross over simplification of the Lilith legend here some of the facts are correct sorta so let's just focus on mistakes:
    
    Lilith isn't derived from Genesis she had a pre-existing mythos from Mesopotamia. No one claims she originated as a biblical figure. They are confusing two versions of the story. In one she is Adam's first wife. In another she is a demon that Adam has sex with after Cain murders Abel. There is no version where both are true. In the versions where Lilith gives birth to demons Cain is the father not Adam. She is never said to give birth to all the demons of the bible, generally it is two Galiu and Alû (or Ailo). She is never in any legend the Queen of Demons.
    
    Outside of the game there is no association between Lilith and vampires. Within the game she is not a vampire and does not turn people into vampires, vampirism is the curse of Cain.
    
    You remember Cain, don't you Jeff? Cain your ancestor you direct bloodline the tribe of ishmael. Finally I should mention that if they are going to do Lilith they miss the point entirely. The worship of Lilith is not ancient it is modern. Lilith was always seen as a demon in the ancient world. In the 20th century Jewish feminists picked her up as an icon (not a goddess since they were atheistic).
    
    They did this because she is a strong female character associated with rejecting procreation, i.e. masturbation for men and miscarriage for women. Gardner is influenced by them and Lilith comes into Wicca as a lesser goddess.
    
    The Church of Satan and Luciferianism then pick her up as a consort (not a wife) for Satan. At the same time directly from Jewish feminism she gets a more major role in modern Kabbalah cults. So if they are going to do Lilith they have completely missed the point.
    
    Typical of people like Jeff to try and use garbage like this and claim he has some dirt on Genesis while he pushes those same arguments over and over and over and over that he keeps getting wrong, over and over and over and over again and again.
    
    Be man Jeff, Grow up get a life a job something you can do requiring at least half of the 14 hours a day you spend here, looking a fool and believing you're so smart when, if you were smart, we wouldn't have to keep repeating the same answers debunking the same butt stupid claims and ignorance you have apparently chosen as a career here.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Is there any topic you can try to get even somewhat right?
      The biblical book of Genesis contains two contradictory accounts of humanity’s creation. The first account is known as the Priestly version and appears in Genesis 1:26-27. Here God fashions man and woman simultaneously when the text reads: “So God created mankind in the divine image, male and female God created them.”The second account of Creation is known as the Yahwistic version and is found in Genesis 2. This is the version of Creation that most people are familiar with. God creates Adam, then places him in theGarden of Eden. Not long afterwards, God decides to make a companion for Adam and creates the animals of the land and sky to see if any of them are suitable partners for the man. God brings each animal to Adam, who names it before ultimately deciding that it is not a “suitable helper.” God then causes a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and while the man is sleeping God fashions Eve from his side. When Adam awakes he recognizes Eve as part of himself and accepts her as his companion.Not surprisingly, the ancient rabbis noticed that two contradictory versions of Creation appear in the book of Genesis (which is called Bereisheet in Hebrew). They solved the discrepancy in two ways:One was to explain that the first version of Creation actually referred to Adam’s first wife, a 'first Eve.' But Adam was displeased with her, so God replaced her with a 'second Eve' that met Adam's needs.Another interpretation is that the Priestly account describes the creation of an androgyne – a creature that was both male and female (Genesis Rabbah 8:1, Leviticus Rabbah 14:1). This creature was then split into a man and a woman in the Yahwistic account.
      
      Scholars are not certain where the character of Lilith comes from, though many believe she was inspired by Sumerian myths about female vampires called “Lillu” or Mesopotamian myths about succubae (female night demons) called “lilin.” Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, but it is not until the Alphabet of Ben Sira (c. 800s to 900s) that the character of Lilith is associated with the first version of Creation. In this medieval text, Ben Sira names Lilith as Adam’s first wife and presents a full account of her story.
      According to the Alphabet of Ben Sira, Lilith was Adam’s first wife but the couple fought all the time. They didn’t see eye-to-eye on matters of sex because Adam always wanted to be on top while Lilith also wanted a turn in the dominant sexual position. When they could not agree, Lilith decided to leave Adam. She uttered God’s name and flew into the air, leaving Adam alone in the Garden of Eden. God sent three angels after her and commanded them to bring her back to her husband by force if she would not come willingly. But when the angels found her by the Red Sea they were unable to convince her to return and could not force her to obey them. Eventually a strange deal is struck, wherein Lilith promised not to harm newborn children if they are protected by an amulet with the names of the three angels written on it:
      “The three angels caught up with her in the [Red] Sea…They seized her and told her: ‘If you agree to come with us, come, and if not, we shall drown you in the sea.’ She answered: ‘Darlings, I know myself that God created me only to afflict babies with fatal disease when they are eight days old; I shall have permission to harm them from their birth to the eighth day and no longer; when it is a male baby; but when it is a female baby, I shall have permission for twelve days.’ The angels would not leave her alone, until she swore by God’s name that wherever she would see them or their names in an amulet, she would not possess the baby [bearing it]. They then left her immediately. This is [the story of] Lilith who afflicts babies with disease.” (Alphabet of Ben Sira, from "Eve & Adam: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Readings on Genesis and Gender" pg. 204.)
      The Alphabet of Ben Sira appears to combine legends of female demons with the idea of the 'first Eve.' What results is a story about Lilith, an assertive wife who rebelled against God and husband, was replaced by another woman, and was demonized in Jewish folklore as a dangerous killer of babies.
      Later legends also characterize her as a beautiful woman who seduces men or copulates with them in their sleep (a succubus), then spawns demon children. According to some accounts, Lilith is the Queen of Demons.
      http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishculture/a/Where-Does-The-Legend-Of-Lilith-Come-From.htm
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        Get a life Jeff. Don't you have something meaningful to do?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Every day
      - mallen11
        
        Jeff, if you understood the Bible you would know that Genesis two is a summary of Genesis 1. You really need to stop making up lies about the Word of God and spend your time learning the truth about God and His love for you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not making up anything. I am providing information on a topic. That is why I also give the link so that people can refer to it. If you actually bothered to read about the bible instead of reading the bible you would have a better understanding of how it was created.
      - mallen11
        
        Jeff, I don't waste my time reading rubbish written by unbelievers regarding God's Word. The reason why you are so mixed up about the Lord Jesus Christ is your reading the wrong information. I get my information from those who love God and His Word.
        
        Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful sharper than any two-edged
        sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
        
        Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
        
        Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call you upon him while he is near:
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        Genesis 1 recounts the creation of the Universe and the Earth. Genesis 2 recounts the creation of Eden, so it zooms in on Day 6 and focuses on Eden, which was set apart from the rest of the Earth.
    - Robert30
      
      Unfortunately you have the wrong Info!-_
      Try the simple explanation and it is the correct one.
    - Robert30
      
      By the way where did you get your strange info on Wicca?
    - Esther
      
      Kent, please stop with the ad hominem attack. It merely makes your argument superfluous. Jeff's are invariably well researched, although if your have a counter argument that is reasonable he will listen and respond in kind. If you find he is repeating himself, please note that as a parent myself I learned a long time ago that children need repetition. If you didn't learn the first time, you likely need another look at the lesson. I am listening and learning from all of you and there is nothing more pleasurable than a well thought out argument. Godspeed. (At this point, Jeff is more convincing with his Lilith story)
  - mallen11
    
    Wrong again, Jeff. God called her Ishah meaning woman before she was called Eve by Adam.
    Genesis 3:20 Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
- Robert30
  
  If it was only Adam and Eve why weren't they cast into the pits as they and all their children were practitioners of incest. That must have been a wild time.
  - KentPerry
    
    There was nothing wrong with incest back when our DNA was pristine. After a period of time God instructed man to stop the practice as sin was beginning to take its toll.
    - Robert30
      
      Didn't seem to bother the Egyptians.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        And that worked out so well for them, didn't it? They wound up with crazy people on the throne from generations of sibling marriage.
      - LeeRaque
        
        Jeez, what you don't know about Egyptian genetics would fill reams of paper.
        They produced many brilliant leaders
Cynthia

Homosexuality is an abomination in His sight because he created a man and a woman to procreate and have children. Two homosexual men and two lesbian women can't have children, not without the help of a member of the opposite sex. He made Adam and Eve to perfectly fit together. Gay people don't "fit together". It's unnatural and disgusting.
- Robert30
  
  Nothing is done in the way of sex by gay folk than is done by every so called straight person.
  Not even the animal communities follow your rules.
A.

A very interesting article. It isn't so much the homosexual attraction that is the sin as it is the idolatry of substituting self for God. This society has multitudinous false gods – mostly our possessions, and that 's bd enough. But substituting self for God; that, people, is the ultimate idolatry!
- Robert30
  
  There is NO god. You people have built up a concept because you can not face reality and truth of life as carried out by wholesome folk.
  - KentPerry
    
    There IS a God and you have built up a concept to deny it and you can not face the reality of him. There, I just applied the same staggering intellect you did making assertions
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Showing no staggering intellect is one of the trademark characteristics you continually demonstrate, Kent.
http://profile.yahoo.com/HFMELPJ2QU37W53K2TKL4HJQGM Ted

Since God makes the rules, He has the right to enforce them.
This is something you don't want to try with me. If you do, you'll find out how normal I reall am.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  No one thinks you are actually normal.
  - Robert30
    
    A statement easily seconded.
  - KentPerry
    
    speak for yourself Jeff Dixon
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      I always speak for myself, you delusional loon.
      - KentPerry
        
        I'm delusional? This is what you said Jeff: Quote: NO ONE (meaning NONE ) thinks you are normal (meaning you have spoken for all those who have told you they don't think he is normal ) that means you are speaking on their behalf Jeff and YOU don't speak for me or anyone else. Then you said YOU ALWAYS speak for yourself, when I just proved otherwise and you lied. No Jeff the only one here that is delusional is YOU Jughead. Just You.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You obviously have no idea what sarcasm is either, you loon.
- Robert30
  
  How many men have you tried to feel up. Sounds as tho you have been turned down loads of times.
Winston

"Why is homosexuality wrong?" And, let's add, "including those who are even accepting of it." The answer is found in the Bible, New Testament book of Romans the entire Chapter 1, and especially verses 16-32.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16 For (AC)I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is (AD)the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew (AE)first and also to (AF)the Greek. 17 For in it (AG)the righteousness of God is revealed (AH)from faith for faith,[e] (AI)as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”[f]
God's Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For (AJ)the wrath of God (AK)is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be (AL)known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, (AM)have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they (AN)became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 (AO)Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and (AP)exchanged the glory of (AQ)the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore (AR)God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to (AS)the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for (AT)a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason (AV)God gave them up to (AW)dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, (AX)men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, (AY)God gave them up to (AZ)a debased mind to do (BA)what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know (BB)God's righteous decree that those who practice such things (BC)deserve to die, they not only do them but (BD)give approval to those who practice them.
- Robert30
  
  And fu you believe in this horse pucky? You must really be abnormal.
  Obviously you suffer from Romnesia.
Despeville

Because it does not create life but so frequently disease and death.
- Robert30
  
  So? Take your own poison. It is free.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  You mean like all these std's which are spread by heterosexuals as well?
  Vaginitis
  Chlamydia or NGU
  Gonorrhea
  Syphilis
  Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID)
  Herpes
  Genital Warts
  Hepatitis B
  Hepatitis C Virus (HCV)
  HIV/Aids
John J Flanagan

It is really not so complicated. Homosexuality is sinful and immoral, just as heterosexual promiscuity and fornication outside of marriage, common to our culture and even practiced by professing Christians, should be avoided.
- Robert30
  
  What a dull life you must lead.
  - KentPerry
    
    what a sad and empty life you have lead so far
aceituna

Any and all sin condemns us to hell. Only through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God's Son are we able to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" told us by St. Peter on Pentecost Day. If man persists in doing sin and refuses God's forgiveness he is condemned. Read Winston's comment — he has laid out what the Bible says and how persistence in sin can lead to more and more sin until God say enough and lets them completely immerse themselves into sin. Yet at the same time, if that person recognizes his sin, repents and asks forgiveness even as late as on his death bed God will save him. Consider the thief on the cross.
- Winston
  
  You are speaking to "unrepentant" sin condems a unregenerate person to hell. There is but one sin which is unforgiveable and that is denying Jesus as God, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Do not forget that we who are sincere believers, yet do absolutely little to nothing to condemn the abysmal act of homosexuality…and address those who practice it and who accept it (approving same sex marriage), are also in continual sin for not being good stewards of God's Word. Will these "sincere Biblical Christians" stand up for God or stand down when the authorities say "shut up" when we continue to speak out against homosexuality? That becomes a personal test for each of us. I speak out, even to those in my own family (I have a older daughter with three children who as a professed Christian allows a lesbian family friend baby sit her three children… we no longer communicate because I stand for Christ and will not compromise my faith. I do have a "reverential fear" of God, but many Christians, including Pastors and church leaders (bishop/elders, deacons) do not.
  - Robert30
    
    You are a very ill person. Who would cut off contact with their child because they have gay friends.
    Who are you to condemn others based on your own beliefs and those beliefs are not shared by many other than those found in mental institutions.
    Remember,,,,we are here…..we are queer….and we are in your face!
    Better check it out your doctor is most likely gay as is your butcher and banker. Be very afraid they are all around you.
- Robert30
  
  Don't you people get tired of repeating the scary stories to each other. Does it keep each and everyone of you inline?
Straight One

Homosexuality is only wrong if you believe God.
Who but God has the authority to say it's wrong?
Don't profess to be a Christian if you don't believe God.
Of course even Satan believes God.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  So, your point is that since one part of a myth says another part of the same myth is true, it must actually be true???
- Robert30
  
  Righto. Isn't Sir Satan gods bro? Ask Moromney he will tell you it is true.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    Our next president? As opposed to our current one who listens to preachers who want to damn America? I will take Romney.
    - Wordman
      
      Well, we agree on that.
      - Esther
        
        Me too.
Bill Kother

GOD did not make our plumbing for that. Anal intercourse; you con not get more vile
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Actually you can get more vile. Try eating crap.
  - Wordman
    
    You first.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      There is no need for me to do it first. I merely needed to point out that you were wrong. Which is something I am sure you are used to.
      - Wordman
        
        Deep. And my point was that one vile thing doesn't make another vile thing appealing.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        And yet you embrace the vile concept of religion.
      - Wordman
        
        I believe that Jesus Christ was who he said he was. Even by objective measures it would be pretty clear that I am a better person than I was before. By what measure is that vile?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It teaches people to embrace delusion over reality.
      - Wordman
        
        Even if I accepted that as true, which I don't, I fail to see how it would be "vile." You might want to look up the word.
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes hearing Jeff Dixon telling EVERYONE they are wrong while Jeffery is NEVER WRONG, NO NOT EVER!! The fact still remains the same and jeff is mistaken again.
        
        as usual
      - Esther
        
        Jeff Dixon is RIGHT, AS USUAL. He is the most cautious person I know on this forum in terms of his honesty and research on the issues he addresses. Do you want him to dishonest, Kent? He may not be a perfect parent, he doesn't claim to be, but who is Kent? Are you? If you are nearly that good, then it is a good start.
      - Wordman
        
        RU kidding?
      - Esther
        
        No. But I will not fight about it like you guys are doing. I just want to stand for what I believe is true.
      - Wordman
        
        Well, Honey, standing for what you believe sometimes means a dust-up. We should probably stop with the GRATUITOUS sarcasm and ridicule. But even those in the Bible sometimes employed sharp irony and outright ridicule and condemnation. The Lord Jesus was known to wield the serrated edge. He called the Pharisees a bag of snakes, white washed seplacures, and humorously compared them to a bunch of circus ponies. When the prophets of Baal called on their gods and couldn't get arrested, Elijah suggest that their gods might be busy using the restroom. So we can't say that this stuff is completely out of bounds. As the venerable Kenny Rogers said, "Sometimes you got to fight when you're a man."
      - Esther
        
        I definitely believe the bible has some good stories. Thank you for your wonderful response. Personally, I do not mean to supply gratuitous sarcasm or ridicule, and if I did, I apologize. I also understand men to some degree having been raised in a family of three brothers, especially, so lack of manners are expected. I believe Kenny Rogers is right, no problem, though he mentions men and not everyone; standing for something true is a duty of everyone, a lesson I learned in high school literature class, that the truth requires searching, and you never really know if you have been duped until you have the facts, not just someone's version of the facts.
      - Wordman
        
        If you're still following this, thanks for your gracious response. When I spoke of GRATUTIOUS sarcasm I certianly wasn't thinking of you. No, it is I and others who often fall to that error. Sarcasm and ridicule should be used sparringly and thoughtfully, only to help illustrate substantive points rather than being spat out as a visceral responses of personal pride and anger.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you, Wordman. Yes, I see what you mean and I have, I hope only very sparingly, used the protocol.
      - KentPerry
        
        Of course he is Esther! and you are right he is MUCH MORE CAUTIOUS ABOUT BEING HONEST almost to the point where we rarely get glimpse of that honesty you speak of,, while us Christians throw caution to the wind and risking our honesty by just wasting it all on the those of his fanbase all two of them as a matter of fact and no,, I don't want him to be dishonest I mean we get plenty of that without my encouraging him but it is fun exposing it hehe I gotta tell ya it is HYSTERICAL ! TOOOOO Funny! Oh and YOU aint no slouch in that department either I see, are ya HA HA Jeeez put your pom poms away and quit hiding him behind your apron OK MOTHER DIXON
      - Esther
        
        Is that the only way you can win an argument is to put people in the state of wanting to escape Kent Perry, the psychotic Calvinist nightmare? What is Jeff talking about? Murder? I think you need to have a little heart-to-heart talk with Jeffrey. He is a very successful DAD! At least, like successful Dads, he seems to have you pegged! Sorry, I couldn't help but notice.
        
        I would try to help but I am a physical scientist not a biological one. Having problems with math, physics or chemistry, in terms of math and by extension, logic. I could help you there, but really my time is very limited, even so.
  - KentPerry
    
    No thanks Jeff Dixon. we have enough just swallowing all the crap you post here muchless the real stuff you consume and are suggesting we try
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Swallowing crap seems to be a common thing for you Kent. Perhaps it is a result of your lifestyle choices?
      - KentPerry
        
        wrong again Jeff. but tell us HOW it seems to be a common thing Jeff ?? Share with us Jeff what lifestyle choices are you so intimately involved with me about that you know are facts ok Jeff. Do ya think ya can do that Jeff or is being the biggest jerk on the planet something you practice as a hobby. I'd say you're a pro at it Jeffery I'm surprised you don't have as many members telling you to just shut your pie hole or perhaps ignore you altogether,. whoa I bet that would have you going bananas eh. You may have to call in all your fruitcake friends you hang with on the downlow
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Unlike you, people on here actually engage me in real conversations. People ignore what you post, because they recognize it as the drivel it is.
      - mallen11
        
        Kent, Jeff just likes to argue with his nonsense. Sometimes I ignore him sometimes I don't. His weakness is trying to make others look stupid when he is the stupid one trying to convince us that we are wrong.
      - Esther
        
        Sharing reasonable information is Jeffrey Dixon's stated purpose. You are not listening if you think his reason is "to make others look stupid" (your words). If you really feel that way anyway, you should never ignore him. He doesn't insult you that way.
      - Joe Anzilotti
        
        "Also, he is always willing to listen to reason."!!! You have a great sense of humor Doc. He listens to reason about as much as you do–which is very little or never. You are providing as much entertainment, as "Jeffrey"! You are both lovable.
      - Esther
        
        Still hung up on my doctorate are you , Joe Anzilotti? What is your problem with education? Are you lacking the doctorate to confirm your Calvin ministership, so you can continue to spew your 5 points in the pulpit on Sunday mornings? Have you committed to be a slave yet? I know that is the current trend in your church.
      - Esther
        
        I saw your interchange with Jeff where he said you two have agreed before, so what is blocking your reasonable discussions with him now, Joe Anzilotti? Is it a lack of respect for his position? Did you know it is not required to be an atheist to speak to Jeff, man-to-man, but like any human being he will back off from a person who simply and constantly derides him as a human being. And you know you and others have used derision on me many times, and still, though I have divulged things to you time after time you continue to treat me like less than human. You did it again in the above statement. We do listen to reason, but one must beware of destructive forces of the adversary, which I have seen every time I have an encounter with a Calvinist… I believe you are one.
        
        I rather be entertaining than destructive anytime. How about you? I don't mind being lovable! I hope Jeff sees what you said. I am sure he will have a quip for it. In the meantime, I will leave the destructive power to whom it belongs… the adversary… too bad you guys like to channel him so much in getting your point across… and if you don't believe me look at the conversations on this forum and tell me it is Christ-like behavior that you use in your interchanges. You can't, b/c you don't. Where do you learn to be that way? In seminary I guess. There is a huge Reform seminary nearby. I may go there to try to get my questions answered about their methods of speaking to non-Calvinists, especially Atheists (Jeff) and Saints (me).
      - mallen11
        
        Are you my "mother" to tell me what to do? Jeff is a big boy and can take care of himself. I have been on this site for a long time and so has Jeff. It is my choice whether I respond to him or anyone else. Mind your own business.
      - Esther
        
        As well, I have been here quite a while and have learned of your devious un-Christ like nature. Jeff doesn't insult you the way you have taken pains to insult him in this forum! I will stand against stupidity, which is one of your big problems, no matter its source. And as usual your delusions bring to bear on the fact that I think Jeff is a not a big boy and can take care of himself… YOU are way off base with that comment. I am minding my business by nipping that falsehood of yours in the bud. Be careful. You think you are speaking to an idiot like yourself. You may find out otherwise, but I doubt if you would know reason if it hit you squarely in the face.
- Robert30
  
  Guess no one has ever made you the offer that you couldn't refuse.
mallen11

Homosexuality has always been prominent in the Middle East and was the cause of the Dead Sea.
It is the monument of the Divine View of Homosexuality. That area was one of the most beautiful
valleys in the entire world. The Dead Sea is what God thinks of homosexuality. It had an effect on the Athenian Empire and everywhere it dominates throughout history. Always remember, a
homosexual is a person for whom Jesus Christ died. Jesus Christ died for all the sins of the
world – ALL sins were judged on the cross. The same message of salvation is for them as well as all the sins of mankind. We have all failed in some way and we all need salvation through believing by faith in the work of Christ on the cross. We all have our own area of weakness that can be overcome through the study of God’s Word and growing spiritually.
Homosexuality: Geneses 19:5-8, Jude 7, Lev 18:22-23, Lev 20:13, 1Tim:9-10, & Romans 1:26-27
- Robert30
  
  What a genius! You must be crazed to even repeat such nonsense. What idiot told you this bunch of crap and why would you be dumb enough to believe it.
  Being GAY has always been prominent where ever there are people or animals.
  - mallen11
    
    What makes you think I would believe ANYTHING you have to say? Yes, I did get this from a genius and I don't listen to idiots like you who are nothing but angry, self-centered relative thinking people who are only on this site to try to disturb people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Why does it disturb you so much that we believe what the Bible teaches. If you don't want to believe it, that is your problem and you are totally free to do so. Go hack somewhere else where the stupid people will believe what you say. We don't.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Homosexuality was the cause of the Dead Sea??????? Just when I think I have heard the stupidest comment possible, someone steps up and ups the ante. Thank you for that lol moment.,
  - KentPerry
    
    Having trouble reading again eh Jeff. Where does he say Homosexuality caused the dead sea. Jeff Homosexuals are sick people dude, they are sick in the mind and you are sicker for thinking it is normal/ It isn't normal Jeff in any species of animal it has been observed it is an anomaly, an aberration, an abomination and yes its a choice they make they cultivate and they nurture and it is plane wrong to encourage it as an acceptable behavior because it isn't something worthy of our attention. It is no different than someone having sex with the dead. It is vile, and disgusting and it needs to be shunned, rebuked with extreme prejudice including those morons who support them. We need to vote more strict fundamentalist in office and we need to push for more teaching of the Bible in public schools we need to eradicate the false science of Darwit and kick the boneheaded atheists out of our halls of academia because for the last fifty years, all they have accomplished is generation after generation of idiots who have brought our ranking down more ever since they hijacked our schools. We need to start getting in the queers faces and the atheists faces when they open their big mouths and start yapping that crap about bronze age books and flying spaghetti monsters. They need to suffer a consequence and we need to stop wasting time listening to their Bullshit and put em in their place, making no apology for it. We need to discriminate against atheist and gays not hire them not sell anything to them. We need to ridicule them into better behavior and not care what they think. We need to make them know by force if necessary, that we don't give a rats ass what you think and care even less about what offends you or what you think is being shoved down your throat.
    
    We should judge them and you
    
    like the vermin bloodline
    
    of Satan you are.
    - Robert30
      
      And some day when you are in need of emergency surgery and the only surgeons around are gay will you just chose to die?
      Hope so. Hope not one of the gods great creations the homosexual person every lifts a hand to assist you in any way.
      Surely you also hate blacks and mexicans. They wouldn't want to be left from your lists of people you hate. More then you hate them you HATE yourself!
      - mallen11
        
        I worked for many years in San Francisco and many people I worked with were homosexuals. We got along just fine because it is not the person; it is their lifestyle I abhor. We never discussed it. I didn't hang out with any of them just like I didn't hang out with other people whose lifestyle was against God's Word. My friends are likeminded people.
        
        In Colorado,
        back in 1972 I met two former homosexual men who came to our church. Their
        lives had been changed through the ministry of a church in Houston, TX. They
        were taught with love and kindness how their lifestyle was not pleasing to God
        and they were spreading the message to other churches. They spoke to the young people
        at our church and even went with our youth group to our summer camp for two
        weeks. They were a great witness for Jesus Christ against homosexualty and even taught us things about God that we
        did not know. They even helped me find a great teaching ministry from their
        church in Houston and I am still studying under that ministry even though we
        moved to CA.
      - Esther
        
        This will NEVER happen. You demonstrate the reason I don't want to know gays. Note Robert, when this happens it will be the last generation. And don't underestimate mothers resisting your affront to society.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      mallen11 • a day ago
      −
      Homosexuality has always been prominent in the Middle East and was the cause of the Dead Sea.
      Right here, you loon.
  - Robert30
    
    You missed that part about the Dead Sea in your geography class? How could you.
  - mallen11
    
    Jeff, I apologize, I left out too much for you to understand.
    Read Genesis 18 and 19. Sodom and
    Gomorrah were guilty of many other horrendous sins, but homosexuality was the
    reason God poured fiery sulfur on the cities, completely destroying them and
    all of their inhabitants. To this day, the area where Sodom and Gomorrah were
    located remains a desolate wasteland. Sodom and Gomorrah serve as a powerful
    example of how God feels about sin in general, and homosexuality specifically.
Robert30

Being GAY is not against any law and has been around since people came out of the tide-pools.
It is not a choice it is a very acceptable way of life. Much beauty has been brought into this world by
those who are gay. We find gay folks every place in life from the church to the sales clerk.
What difference does it make to you who condemn this lifestyle who does what to whom and why?
Your beliefs are derived from the so-called bible. This is just a dusty old book of lies, fables, myths written by a bunch of old semitic men eons ago. It had no value then and certainly none today.
Xianity is a dying religion and it can't come fast enough. Those of you who take this silly book and its remnants of the mystery religions as providing anything but a good laugh should just stay in your closets. In fact, weren't you advised to do so in this weary-some book?
Just stop using a fraudelent god to condemn others.
Now then you bible thumpers say your god made humans in its own image…right? Therefore, a gay human has been placed here in the same way. Recently saw one of your leaders say his god didn't make no junk! His poor grammar not mine. So if a god made even one gay person he can't be other than one who bears the likeness of this god.
- KentPerry
  
  Quote: "Being GAY is not against any law and has been around since people came out of the tide-pools. It is not a choice it is a very acceptable way of life. "
  
  //end quote.
  
  Being gay is being gay, it comes with all its customary depravity and self serving indulgence. From looking like some quasi cast member of the rocky horror picture show, to some frail sickly looking candidate for some protracted health cure. They prance around naked in parades they call pride while they act out perverse and repugnant sexual acts deserving of having their ass kicked just to knock the stupid out of their thick skulls. They are too ignorant to be embarrassed by their disgusting sexual bent and the multitudes of flesh injections, they customarily annaly allow is why they usually DIE about a decade earlier than their heterosexual counterpart.
  
  Very acceptable?? Yeah right, if your that easily impressed and that caught up in the delusion of your infirmity,, you go ahead, have at it. See where it gets ya,
  
  You will be seen as such a pariah, you won't even be welcome at a blood donor drive anywhere in the United States and you will usually die sad and alone.
  
  Then,, you will burn in hell
  
  forever
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    Such words of profound wisdom coming from you Kent. "Being gay is being gay" Wow, such an insightful comment. Please provide more of the same. Perhaps you can elaborate on being straight is being straight. Or being idiotic is being idiotic. You should be able to relate to that one very easily with all the idiotic and absurd views you spew out.
    - KentPerry
      
      yes being gay is being gay Jeff. In other words, being gay is being lame. Hey did anyone hear your story about how you realized you weren't gay Jeff? Loved that one please share again.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        There is no "story". I have said before and I will continue to say that I have always known I was straight; that it was never a choice for me. What other idiocies do you have to offer?
      - Esther
        
        Kent: Everyone who has spent anytime on this forum knows that Jeff is straight as an arrow. Where the heck have you been? No doubt stirring up similar malicious stuff elsewhere, if my memory serves.
- Esther
  
  But it also says about religion to not stay in your closet, come out and be Christ-like with people. There are things I could say about homosexuals being the most insulting people if their partner shows any interest in the opposite gender… murderous, in fact. Don't tell me you haven't seen that. Well, Robert, I do not like it even hearing about your sex life, so why don't you "keep it in the closet?"
Sam

I think homosexuality is a poor choice as well as a sin. The desire for same sex has to come out of a fear or anger of the opposite sex. Bisexuals have a fear of being alone so they swing both ways. Bottom line is that gay behavior is not normal and I doubt that very many gays are happy.