Why Liberals are Misreading Mourdock

On Tuesday night, during an Indiana debate between candidates for the U.S. Senate, Republican Richard Mourdock said the following to explain his position on abortion: “I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”

Immediately, Twitter lit up with incensed and indignant comments characterizing Mourdock’s words as saying that God makes rape happen or that God intends for rape to result in pregnancy, along with all manner of dark humor about other things God intends. Liberals seemed shocked by Mourdock’s statement and his beliefs…

Despite the assertions of many liberal writers I read and otherwise admire, I don’t think that politicians like Mourdock oppose rape exceptions because they hate women or want to control women. I think they’re totally oblivious and insensitive and can’t for a moment place themselves in the shoes of a woman who becomes pregnant from a rape. I think most don’t particularly care that their policy decisions can impact what control a woman does or doesn’t have over her own body. But if Mourdock believes that God creates all life and that to end a life created by God is murder, then all abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances in which a pregnancy came about.

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shortyshappy

The baby is not the guilty one.
- fort9erdon
  
  Yes, and men can stick it into anyone, and women can spread em for anyone, …. for free! It's the sweet innocent harmless baby who must pay with their ONE AND ONLY LIFE, for the irresponsibility of the parents. The baby pays for one reason, ….. they are "inconvenient"! What a load of irresponsible crap!
- daves
  
  If God wanted to give the woman a gift he should have stopped the rape in the first place.
Paul D. Frazier

I would advise politicians to keep their fingers out of women's uterus.
- N Lott
  
  May I ask Paul what instruments abortion docs use to dismember and murder a child? Those instruments of death are being used by politicians. Abortion always results in a death and sometimes 2 deaths when the mother is killed too. Your use of fingers shows your mentality and it's disgusting.
- John Adams
  
  ALL law is based upon some moral code. I don't want my laws based upon the God-less, free-sex, do-your-own-thing "morality" of the '60s–'70s' hippies. I want my laws based upon God's Holy Word, the Bible.
  - Jeff Dixon
    
    Then why are you not killing people who work on the Sabbath? Are you a hypocrite?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1815457097 Rhonda Renee Sessions

And this is the point… "But if Mourdock believes that God creates all life and that to end a life created by God is murder, then all abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances in which a pregnancy came about." ALL ABORTION is MURDER! You're taking a life, no matter what the circumstances. Who are we to second-guess Yahweh's intentions… that child, even though conceived in violence, may grow up to be an incredible genius that can bring something good to our world. Yahweh uses evil to do His work, as well. All things are possible through Him.
- Steve03
  
  So never resist a rapist — he's working God's will.
  - John Adams
    
    I guess you STILL don't understand. NO ONE is saying the rapist is doing the right thing. What is being said is that when/if life is created, THAT is of God!!!
    - Steve03
      
      If God intends that the baby be born, then God intended the conception. Is not his foreknowledge perfect, and his power absolute?
      "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 4:7 (AV, Geneva, and Douay Rheims)
      And if the King James isn't clear enough for you, the English Standard Version reads "I make well-being and create calamity", the Holman Standard "I make success and create disaster", and the RSV "I make weal and create woe".
      - John Adams
        
        To accuse God of wickedness is blasphemy.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is not blasphemy to point out the obvious adsurdites of mythical deities.
      - John Adams
        
        Sir, some day you WILL regret saying such things.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Not from any mythical deities.
      - John Adams
        
        No, but from the One True Holy and Righteous God.
      - RonMar
        
        It took Jeffie a while to come out and share his faith belief. That is typical of people like Jeffie.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        it is well known by many on this site that I am an Atheist. I have never hidden that fact.
      - fliteking
        
        Atheist? I was thinking something else . . .
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Thinking?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I already mentioned mythical deities
      - RonMar
        
        There you go. Now we know you are hopeless and helpless, but thank you for sharing your faith belief.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Atheism is not a faith belief.
      - RonMar
        
        Sorry Jeffie, but atheism is a faith belief. You can even get an interment marker with the symbol of atheism like any other faith belief. On faith you do not believe in God, but you don't know for sure. On faith I believe in God, but I don't know for sure. There is absolutely no difference. (I use "absolutely" deliberately because I know it annoys a lot of people like you.)
        You can stop your flood of emails, by the way. I am through with you. You have nothing worthwhile for me to read. I have known in my lifetime so far many like you, and all of you bore me to tears with your ignorance going to stupidity and arrogance in your ignorance.
        Ta-ta, and really, good luck.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, if an idea has a interment marker, that make it a faith belief? lol. There are markers with pictures of a favorite animal or activity. So, if a marker shows a picture of someone skiing, does that mean they have a religious belief in skiing? There is much ignorance being shown here. But it is hardly from my side of the conversation. Whether you want to respond to me or not it up to you. But you are unable to prevent me from posting as I see fit.
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie, I cannot resist responding to your post because it reveals so well your ignorance, inability to think straight – logically – and empty argumentation based on GIGO – Garbage In, Garbage Out.
        The interment markers I mentioned are in burial guidebooks showing available Faith Belief markers.
        I would not be surprised if you wanted a marker depicting your favorite activity with an animal.
        
        I certainly cannot and would not want to "prevent [you] from posting as [you] see fit." Your posts are so amusing. I believe in freedom of speech. I look forward to you and faith believers like you making fools of yourself on worldwide-available, public sites.
        
        Best, early wishes to you and your fellow and sister faith believers for a happy April Fools Day.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It also shows a symbol for Kohen Hands, which comes from an episode of Star Trek. So, in your tiny mind, that makes Star Trek a faith belief as well? There is garbage being posted and it is coming straight from your delusional mind.
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie your communication skills are as lacking as your illogical and muddled mind. What is the "it" you are referring to that "shows a symbol for Kohen Hands?"
        I am so intrigued and amused by your multiple problems and struggles that I cannot yet disengage from our little chat with you as a study subject of how anyone can be as FUBAR – F=Fouled – as you so obviously are.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I will make sure to ensure that you be able follow the conservation since it becomes obvious that you cannot do that simple thing. "It" refers to the sites that show religious interment markers. You know, the topic we have been discussing.
        
        Here is one from the USA VA department.
        
        http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp
      - RonMar
        
        "follow the conservation," yeah guy you do amuse me a lot. A bit rattled,
        illiterate in English, sloppy poster, don't know how to use spell check, don't
        use it, or don't proofread your garbage – take your choice please, including all
        of the above.
        I will have to check other disqus emails to me to see if you have seen my post pointing out to you that Kohen Hands, Hebrew priests' blessings in prayers came out just a bit before Star Trek. Gee, maybe Star Trek got that from the ancient writings and illustrations. Ya reckon?
        You remind me of the idiot American, young woman who said aloud and
        harshly in front of one of my Jewish friends, also a woman, with me on a visit
        to the Normandy, France military cemetery late last year, "What is this a Jewish
        cemetery?"
        I had to steer my friend away gently to keep her from responding to the American nitwit. If you are an American your posts put you in the nitwit category, but I would not call you a nitwit, only comment on your idiotic posts.
        I do wonder if you are an American. Most Americans use insure not "ensure"
        as you did.
        Jeffie, I wonder also if you have ever heard the true saying, "When you are in a hole stop digging."
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie, reviewing the posts it appears you have done some reading, maybe enjoy reading. You might benefit from reading Surprised by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell on evidence demanding a verdict.
        Among other things I do underwater archaeology for research not exploitative purposes. I know for facts and from firsthand examination you are wrong about the Exodus, the Flood and other Biblical stories that you have denied.
        Just so you know, even Jordanian Muslims call western Jordan the Holy Land of Jordan and share with delight evidences of the Exodus, Jesus and other stories as related in the Bible. Muslims in Israel control and care for Abraham's cave at Machpela in Hebron, Jericho and other archaeological sites in the West Bank.
        I can understand anyone who has done in-depth, long-term and unbiased study of the evidences available both Biblical and extra-Biblical, but you obviously show no evidence that you approach the subject without at least controlling or accounting for your biases.
        I don't know your age, but I know mine is certainly sufficient for long-term, in-depth and intensive study from written and other sources including firsthand examination of religions worldwide and many, many encounters with faith belief that there is no God. You are no different than any of those other faith believers. Your arguments are just as empty, muddled, inadequate and confused as theirs.
        
        I am curious about how you came to your present state. I have not seen you post anything about that yet, only your not, no, negative assertions and your most unfortunate attempt to use the Bible – God's Holy Word – while you share your faith belief that there is no God. Really, you can't have it both ways – deny God and use His inspired Holy Word trying to make any point. You must bring forth your own evidence and you have not done that yet as far as I have seen. Assertions do not cut it, evidence does.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are correct, evidence is the issue. And while you claim to be aware of evidence supporting your position, you conveniently did not list any of it.
        
        I have never believed the bible stories. It is not a position I came into. It is the position I have always held. The books of the bible have not always been the same and many verses have been changed over time. The stories of gods have always been with man and the fables of the bible are no different.
      - RonMar
        
        "You are correct, evidence is the issue. And while you claim to be aware of evidence supporting your position, you conveniently did not list any of it." – Duuh. "Surprised by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell on evidence demanding a verdict" are filled with the lists that you want.
        Does the following look more like a list to you in this form? – 1) I do underwater archaeology for research not exploitative purposes. I know for facts and from firsthand examination you are wrong about the Exodus, the Flood and other Biblical stories that you have denied, 2) even Jordanian Muslims call western Jordan the Holy Land of Jordan and share with delight evidences of a) the Exodus, b) Jesus and c) other stories as related in the Bible, 3) Muslims in Israel control and care for a) Abraham's cave at Machpela in Hebron, b) Jericho and c) other archaeological sites in the West Bank.
        You sure are saying I am correct a lot all of a sudden.
        "I have never believed the bible stories …" – I want to be sure I have this right from your horse mouth. You are saying you were born an atheist. Esther seemed to be saying you went through a lot to become an atheist, but what does Esther know anyway, eh?
        "The books of the bible have not always been the same and many verses have been changed over time." – You knew this at birth or when you were first able to read?
        
        FYI, the Bible has always been the same as found in scrolls and other forms of various materials. There were no books or verses divisions in the Bible as it was found piece by piece, not even any punctuation and certainly none of those cute little segment separations and inserted headings.
        Yes, stories of gods have always been with man as far as I know, which is proof actually of man's innate perception of God. Somehow, if you are to be believed, you missed the innate perception. You were born with a void. More likely your innate perception has been expunged from you somehow by someone(s) in some ways at some times and places.
        I have no idea to what you are referring as "the fables of the bible." Perhaps you mean the parables as told by Jesus. I do know, however, the stories in the Bible are different in significant and meaningful ways from fables, other stories of earlier faith beliefs and contemporary faith beliefs.
        
        Do you imagine you are telling me anything I have not heard before from other atheists? If so you are wrong yet again.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No actually, the views of Josh McDowell have been shown to be wrong. What else do you have?
        
        http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/
        
        You list many ideas but nothing to support it. Please show something more informative than your biased opinion.
      - RonMar
        
        Hahahahaha. LOL. The Kohen Hands come from Hebrew priestly blessings. FYI, they preceded the Star Trek episodes by a few years. You are really an amusing person.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What do you know. You are right. I misread the information on Kohen Hands I was looking up. But that does not mean that Atheism is a faith belief.
      - Esther
        
        Symbols get reattributed all the time… consider Hitler's swastika or Angels wings… from India harvest and Greek mythology, respectively
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        While that is true, I should have looked into the issue further.
      - RonMar
        
        "What do you know," indeed. I am right. You are wrong and also about atheism not being a faith belief. I believe, however, we have beaten that horse enough. That horse is dead; it is time for you to dismount from it.
        You sure made yourself look like the fool you are on this worldwide-available, public site with your Kohen Hands/Star Trek bit. LOL. Star Trek, your version of science – your god. ROTFL at you, figuratively of course, not literally.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The fact that you were right about one idea does NOT mean you were also right about other issues. Atheism is not a faith belief. It is a non belief.
      - fliteking
        
        Another typical stunted response from a liberal.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Not a liberal. You sure you are doing any actual thinking?
      - fliteking
        
        I was giving you some credit. I stand corrected. Progressive.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You consider saying that I give a stunted response as a liberal some credit? You really do not think at all.
      - Steve03
        
        Then God himself is a blasphemer, or Isaiah lied.
      - John Adams
        
        I hope that was said out of ignorance.
      - jdhardscrabble
        
        There is no Isaiah 4:7
      - Steve03
        
        Thanks, good catch! I meant to type 45:7.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      You are also saying that women who get raped deserve it, which is a warped and sick mindset.
  - G. Edward
    
    You well know that is not the meaning of this!
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Why should he know that? According to Mosaic Law, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives” (Deuteronomy 22:28–29).
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
    
    The same God who made us also sets the length of our days, but following your logic that means we should never resist a murderer either, though the Bible clearly grants us the right to self-defense even to the extent of using deadly force against a home invader.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      No, the length of a day is based on the average period of time required for one rotation of the earth on its axis.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        "Length of ours days" means the length of our lifespan, not the length of a single day.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        If you are using it poetically. But your comment was not specific. However, even if we use your version, it is an argument without foundation. How do you know that god establishes how long someone will live? Because the bible says so? How do you know the bible is right? Because it says it is the word of god? Then we are back with how do you know the bible is right?
    - Steve03
      
      That is where the logic leads. Isn't interesting that as soon as you imagine the victim as a man being robbed instead of a woman being impregnated, you grasp the fallacy of "God wills that you carry this unwanted baby to term, regardless of the risk to your life, the financial burden it imposes, the damage done to your physical and emotional health, and the social and familial stigma that might result"?
      A favorite Baptist preacher's line is "God won't let anything happen to you until you have fulfilled the purpose for which you were put on earth." So if you are killed, it's because God is finished with you here. Thus the murderer is as much a part of God's plan as his victim, and how can you punish — or even resist — him for that? To do so would be oppose the will of God. Besides, as John Adams (the poster) insists, the murderer cannot help but choose evil, so he's not criminally responsible.
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy
    
    Our God often makes the best of very bad situations, if we let Him, especially if we pray for Him to do so. Abortion denies God the opportunity to prove how adept and kind He is!
  - cyndlou
    
    just another wrong assumption of what Mr Murdock said – he was simply saying if God did not want that woman to get pregnant at the time of rape (which is an action of man not God) He can stop conception. It takes people petitioning Him through prayer to stop man from doing the things we do. Unfortunately there are not enough people in this world today with a close enough relationship with the Holy Spirit to hear when He calls us to lift people up to the Father in prayer.
Panama Red

Abortion is used as a convenience. The person seeking the abortion,(in most cases) does not want a baby in the way of a career, or just does not want to be "bothered" by taking care of a baby.
Based upon those reasons, why not kill off old people when they are no longer able to care for themselves? We often put them in nursing homes, and never go see them because "we're too busy"
There are many families who would love to adopt those unwanted babies. Why not give them up to adoption, instead of killing them. The mother would be doing a good deed, and the child would be a blessing to some family.
Abortion is a moral issue, that we no longer teach our kids. So it becomes a legal issue that never should have been.
What would I do if my wife was raped, and become pregnant by the rapist? I truly can't say, because it hasn't happened to me.
It is a shame that abortion has become a means of birth control.
PPTA

I am not a woman. I am a man. I think that the Lord gave us all free choice. Let a woman excerise her free choice. It doesn't matter what I believe. I certainly do not believe in abortion. However I am not a woman. So in general, I stay out of that debate. Same thing with Gays. I also stay out of that debate. The only thing that makes me mad, they want to shove their beliefs down my throat. That will never happen. I believe men with men, women with women, and men and women is perversion of Gods law. A sin. You will not change my mind, or beliefs. But, I let you make your own choice. If you have made a bad choice, you will suffer the results of that choice. At some point, you will know when you face the Lord. But, leave me out, don't force your beliefs on me with stupid laws.
- John Adams
  
  Where in the Bible do you find that God gave us "free choice"?
  - Bighoss
    
    Perhaps the earliest example is when Joshua told the children of Israel to "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve…" Joshua apparently understood that there is such a thing as free will. When Jesus commended Mary and defended her against the complaints of her sister Martha, he said "Martha hath CHOSEN that good part…." So it seems that Jesus recognized that people can indeed make choices and indeed have "free will." But then Jesus never sat at the feet of Calvinists, so maybe he just didn't get the full story..
    - John Adams
      
      1. God is sovereign and He controls EVERYTHING.
      2. The unregenerate man can only choose evil.
      3. The regenerate soul has the freedom to obey God.
      4. Even in the regenerated soul, the natural man is still alive. He may choose to obey God or not, but there are consequences for whichever he chooses.
      5. God is sovereign and HE controls EVERYTHING – even the heart of man.
      - Steve03
        
        Chapter and verse, please. I don't see that in my Bibles.
      - John Adams
        
        If you don't understand that, you really need to read the entire Bible, not just selected verses.
      - Steve03
        
        But it's by reading selected verses that those dogmas were arrived at and by which they are defended. There are verses that read the other way on every point.
        If humans are incapable of choosing, it was cruel of Jesus to tell them to repent (the Greek means "change your mind"). A creature that is incapable of choosing anything but evil deserves sympathy, not eternal punishment.
      - John Adams
        
        God gives the faith to believe to whom He will.
      - Steve03
        
        And all this time I thought you were a Christian, but here you are quoting the Qu'ran: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, He is the Mighty, the Wise." (Sura 14:4).
      - Bighoss
        
        I agree that humans ARE capable of choosing but I maintain that they can make good or bad choices in either the regenerated state or the unregenerated state.
        Read what John has to say about this in I John 1:8-10.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Hmm, sounds like similar states instead of opposing states. Odd, it is almost as if the concept of a regenerated state is a made up concept.
      - Bighoss
        
        Meaning Adams can not give you a scriptural basis for his assertions and is serving up some smoke to conceal his failure.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
        
        Genesis 4:7, where God abjures Cain to repent, telling him that if he does well, he can hold his head up, but if not, sin is a demon lurking at his door.
      - Steve03
        
        I was asking John Adams for chapter and verse on his five points. Genesis 4:7 argues against "the unregenerate man can choose only evil," as God tells Cain — an unregenrate man if ever there was one — that he can master sin, or in Adam's terms, choose good. Surely God wouldn't tell Cain to do something of which God knew Cain was incapable.
      - Bighoss
        
        If, as you assert, "God controls everything," why do the scriptures tell us that Jesus said that Mary "hath CHOSEN that good part"??? There could be NO CHOICE involved if Mary NO choice, as Calvinists allege. And what is this STUFF about the "regenerated man," having his "natural man…still alive" and thus being able to "CHOOSE to obey God or not"? THAT statement by you clearly recognizes that we humans (natural man) HAVE the power to make choices, to exercise free will. Your own words put the lie to the Calvinism you seem to endorse. Man alive–you Calvinists always seem to wind up contradicting yourselves coming and going
        
        And as for that Calvinist inanity about the unregenerate man allegedly being able to choose only evil, answer me this: Are there not many unregenerate persons in this world in which we live who choose to do good things? Of course there are. Multiplied millions of good deeds have been done down through the ages by persons who have not been saved by the grace of God. Dare you deny this? If you do, you will look silly, since such things happen all the time. Unregenerate persons often choose to do good things. That is a FACT and to deny it is folly.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since it a fact that people you consider to be unregenerate actually do good things, perhaps the question you might want to consider is whether the idea of someone being regenerate is true or not.
      - Bighoss
        
        Perhaps you should understand that being regenerate does not mean being sinless, something well established in scripture. Oh–I forgot, you don't use scripture or respect it unless you can find a scripture to distort to suit your disordered viewpoints..
      - Despeville
        
        You do remember that you are talking to a complete schizoid with a penchant for ignorance Hoss?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is time for you to open another bottle of Canard, Humpty. Hey, when can we expect to see you post more fake news?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not respect anything that espouses violence as a means of control, establishes asinine laws that do not serve any purpose and often are harmful to people, or a belief in fantasy. What you want to call it is of little importance to me.
      - Esther
        
        "John Adams" is Calvinists?
      - John Adams
        
        You people don't take the time to think; you just knee-jerk react. Take some time to think before you post again.
    - Steve03
      
      Genesis 4:7 says Cain can master sin, if he chooses. And Paul certainly thinks that Adam chose to disobey . . . On the other hand, "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, He is the Mighty, the Wise." (Quran 14:4)
    - Vladimir
      
      Also the choice to eat or not eat the apple. Adam and Eve exercised their agency in the garden.
      - Despeville
        
        They had an insurance agency there Vlad? Who were the customers?
- 1coachretired1
  
  You can have all of these beliefs-but if you have children or are asked for your opinion-and not be able to "stay away" THEN WHAT ARE YOUR REAL BELIEFS?
RonMar

Abortion is murder. Murder is against God's and human's laws.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Numbers 5:20-22
  20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you”— 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; 22 and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”
  Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”
  
  In this first section God himself (also known as the Lord) performs the abortion at the request of the priest. Make no mistake about it, “your thigh rot” can certainly be translated to read “causes you to have a miscarrying womb and barrenness”. Look it up in your NIV, it’s a footnote on the bottom. Thigh can also be read at uterus, since obviously there are no thighs in the belly.
  
  So the Bible actually says that God himself is to perform the abortions in these cases.
  - John Adams
    
    How in the world do you get abortion from that Bible passage!?!?!?!?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      By reading the verse.
      - John Adams
        
        I guess you're reading with your eyes closed.
      - Esther
        
        Not really. I would be concerned. Maybe the Reformists can enlighten us. Is there a Calvinist in the house?
      - KentPerry
        
        hehe Hi my sweet.
      - Esther
        
        OM* what have I done to deserve this. Okay Kent: First you must take screwtape (and that is not any atheist I know) and put him out. Then have a look at the issue of abortion which Mr. Dixon has introduced above. Numbers 5: 20-22
      - KentPerry
        
        Esther, I am not going to get into it with you. I just won't. If you think Screwtape is on my shoulder,, ok but I am not going to say another terse word to you. But I am going to treat Jeff Dixon no different than if he was an accomplice to murdering an innocent baby. No different than someone who understands stupid, no different than someone posting folklore as historical fact and no different than I would a bad influence on someone whom I think is very intelligent woman and quite possibly a good friend. His influence on you is not going to alter my resolve on this matter NO MATTER what you say or think of me. It ain't happening and you ain't going to bait me in arguing with you because it REQUIRES (at least in conjunction of jeffs input) that I insult you, I simply ain't going there.
        
        Not with you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Now that is amusing. You are going to treat me an an accomplice to murder, when you have admitting to actually murdering someone.
      - KentPerry
        
        You still don't know the difference between killing someone and murder do you Jeff.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I know the difference between lunacy and sanity. Sadly, you do not.
      - KentPerry
        
        I disagree.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So?
      - KentPerry
        
        Call the Police Jeff or do you enjoy aiding and abetting. I mean don't be a hypocrite complaining about psychopath's Jeff,, DO SOMETHING! BE A MAN!! Call The Police! HA HA HA HA
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Obviously you do not understand our legal system either, you loon. My stating you said sometime is not proof. But if you really believe your god exists, he knows what you said to me.
      - Esther
        
        Did you read the story I told the other calvinist about my mom's sister who killed herself at 17 years old? It is on the forum to RonMar. Maybe you can answer the question that he refused to answer. That is all I am asking. I don't want to hear anything bad about any American when we all have a common enemy at the door. Please understand.
      - Esther
        
        It is in Why Liberals are Misreading Mourdock, this blog we are in now.
      - daves
        
        But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you, and persecute you;
      - KentPerry
        
        I have done all those things Daves, I love Jeff Dixon as a fellow human being enough to warn him of the wages of sin, which is the good thing that I do,
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Sure you have. With a bludgeon in one hand and a bible in the other.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Blind people do that every day.
      - RonMar
        
        See, Jeffie, you're taking a little heat here already. Good luck fellow, that's all you've got going for yourself right now.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        if you consider this heat, you obviously know nothing about that topic either.
      - KentPerry
        
        It's a euphemism Jeff, for heated debate, not that you would agree that it is but that it would become that way. Not that you would see the temperature rise but that the heated exchanges would escalate and isn't that what you live for anyway? ha ha
        
        So what was that you were saying about not knowing anything about heat? Maybe it is you not knowing anything about context. Perhaps that is why your interpretation on the scriptures never cease to entertain us so. Context is everything Jeff, try adding it to your understanding and maybe,, just maybe,, you'll have more here taking you seriously other than Esther who seems to only because she feels sorry for you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, it is a euphemism. However, it is misplaced since there is no heated debate occurring. Is there any topic you actually understand?
      - KentPerry
        
        None you try to explain but then again, you UNDERSTAND STUPID so ,,
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I see, you understand stupid. Well, that explains it all.
      - KentPerry
        
        Really?? Well Great help me out here Jeff because anyone that has followed this thread is NOT going to be tricked by that last stunt you pulled.. We all know YOU said you understand "stupid" So tell us,, explain stupid so we don't have to keep calling that anymore.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Explain stupid? Believing in magic. Believing in imaginary creatures. Believing that the bible is inerrant when it has been shown to be wrong. You know, basically your entire belief system.
      - KentPerry
        
        I can't explain it much less understand it but if I had to give the most glaring example of it,, I'd say YOU are the living embodiment of all that is stupid Jeff. All that is wrong with the world all wrapped up in one pathetically stupid individual. You say the Bible has been shown to be wrong, No Jeff only people who don't know a damn thing about it, say it is wrong. That's because they simply don't get it and refuse to accept any answer but the wrong one. That is what you do. You aren't honest with the yourself much less anyone here Jeff and again, it's because you're stupid.
        
        You are the most stupid atheist I think I have ever met if not the most stupid person period. For instance that drivel you vomited defending queers.
        
        The concept and practice of sodomy, as well as rampant sexuality of all kinds, were heavily practiced in the Nations surrounding Ancient Israel…this was already covered and influenced by these other nations. THe Children of Israel were told and instructed not to do or follow the patterns and behaviors of these other heathen and pagan nations. For by this they had defiled the land and were punished just as were the pagans/heathens who had lived there previously.
        
        No where do you see any instruction for a Hebrew in the Old Testament or a or Christian in the New Testament to ever define themselves by their sexuality…as is once again popular today.
        
        It simply is just not done by intelligent thinking peoples. But you, Jeff, you're an idiot and a stupid idiot to boot. There is no words I know of that describes the level of stupid you have made it your mission in life to explore. You swim in it, you dive down further and further into the deepest darkest depths of pure unadulterated stupidity. Fathoms into the bowels of stupid you go trying to drag anyone you can down with you. I believe in nothing imaginary Jeff, Just in a God so unimaginable by any standard you could never imagine and I will attest it is the REASON, you think everyone else is merely imagining God. I never tell people who believe in reptilians they are only imagining things. I never tell people that claim they have see grays or flying saucers, that they are imagining things because quite honestly Jeff.. I simply don't know but thinking Millions of Christians who have witnessed things no one can explain, happening inside them, around them circumstances changed overnight etc,. You only display profound stupidity and an arrogance and hubris I ask myself where you get you information. Maybe you ask your magic 8 ball or have a close relationship with Sylvia Brown,, OR maybe,, you're simply angry at God for not showing himself to you as he has Millions of others like myself who just pity you for your intentional stupidness.
        
        Because YOU can't imagine how anyone can believe doesn't mean they are all faking it in some HUGE conspiracy, nor does it mean we are all brainwashed. Ill never forget the day I asked God to come inside me to have a relationship inhabiting this flesh and blood meat jacket we all wear that Science can't prove actually exists outside our own brains. After all we are only looking at photons reflecting off what we believe is matter. What we see is manufactured in our brains. Theories like that are being created all the time. But God isn't made out of atoms and molecules Jeff. He isn't like anything You or I could ever yet that isi exactly what you tell me I am guilty of, imagining God, while you on the other hand are not so he doesn't exist. You know what is so stupid about you Jeff, is the fact that if it were true, that God exists only in my imagination, he would still exist, nevertheless, even if only in my imagination but even if that is all he is, even IF you were anywhere CLOSE to being correct,, because the fact is, you're not,
        
        you would still take that away from us, you would still criticize our imagination, and in that most hypothetical, situation, the only difference between all of us and you, would be your very limited imagination and your butt stupid idea that what we know is somehow less than your utter lack of imagination.
        
        The God I know however, IS real and I can tell you after knowing him as long as I have,,Ill never know everything there is about him just like you know very little about all of us. Even if you are stupid enough to think you do. NOW THAT I can say is some imagination you have there ole boy.
        
        The Hebrews throughout their history were disobedient in this and consequently lost the land their Lord had promised them. I know any Christian knowledgeable about the Word or Bible would not want to be under the Old Testament.
        
        I Suggest you read the allegory explaining the difference in the Olde and New Testaments…in Galatians 4 beginning at verse 21. It reads best in a King James version. Here where Paul explains those desiring to be under the Law…for they do not even hear the Law. In this case the Law represented by the two sons of Abraham…Ishmael and Isaac. No knowledgeable Christian on strong meat and not milk would desire to be under the Law. For the Law is in bondage…with her children. The point is there are many forgotten abominations of the Bible..not just the Old Testament. This is why my reference to Galatians Chapter Four beginning at Chapter 4 verse 21…where Paul describes the difference in the Olde and New Testament through the allegory of these two sons. Ishmael and Issac.
        
        There are two parts to the Bible..the Old Testament and the New Testament. A testament is a promise…a covenant…a last will and testament. For a will and testament to go into effect the testator must die. The death of the testator is what makes the will and testament go into effect and a will and testament can be changed over and over. But the one which goes into effect is the Last Will and Testament written by the testator. It is obvious that no one died under the Old Testament and for the Old Testament. Yet you and so many others are wont to use the Old Testament as your source for everything Biblical. Amazing.
        
        However to be frank about this many Believers haven't a clue about this history, as well as trend or custom about a will and testament. Amazing but true.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        People of every religion believe that they experience events and experiences that no one else can understand. It does not make their religion any more true than Christianity. It merely means that they have decided to embrace that delusion. Which is all that you have done.
      - KentPerry
        
        The fact remains Jeff that to ALL those people, it is NOT a delusion and saying it is doesn't mean thats what it is. But YOU keep calling em that I see how well thats been workin for ya. The fact you keep telling us this would suggest you're a mind reader and THAT is no less a delusion on your part than what you think REALLY happened or happens is a just a delusion on our part.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        To those people it is not a delusion. that does not mean it is not a delusion. And since you do not believe the other religions are correct, you also think they are mistaken.
      - KentPerry
        
        I may think they are mistaken but unlike you,, I am not going around making it my mission in life to call all of them delusional. I won't go to a Mormon discussion board and waste time insulting them. You conflate religion with the existence of god notwithstanding, their belief in God and their religious doctrine have little to do with what I am talking to you about anyway. But You go ahead, Hoss, keep doing what you're doing and you'll always be an idiot.
        
        idiot
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you have decided your mission in life is to demean, criticize and attack gays simply because you dislike them. Psychotic loon.
      - KentPerry
        
        You won't find me on any discussion board for Homosexuals where I spend all my time telling them they are wrong Jeff. Thats the difference idiot
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You post where you want to and I will post where I want to, Hoss. It is called of freedom of speech.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh I am in no way suggesting you stop posting Jeff!! HA HA HA.. No I fully support your freedom to make an ass of yourself. Please, continue.
      - Esther
        
        Hi Kent: How about exercising some pragmatism at http://zionica.com/2012/10/30/what-would-americas-founders-say-about-islam/ ? Our common enemy is being discussed.
      - Esther
        
        How about exercising some pragmatism at http://zionica.com/2012/10/30/what-would-americas-founders-say-about-islam/ ? Our common enemy is being discussed.
      - Esther
        
        No Kent. The only difference between you and Jeff is that you were forced to believe and he has never been forced to believe. Although he was raised just like us only in a different denomination, I won't tell you which, that is up to him. So you think you have to force him, by intimidation, to believe.
        
        You said it all when you said: " I can't explain it much less understand…" in your above comment and you should have left it at that, and stopped right there, because all of what you said following is the rambling of a frustration the likes of which should not be broadcast here but to your God. Read James 1:5. You are about the most needful of that script as I have come across, because no matter how you think you come across it is certainly not wise, which I know you know better and are capable.
      - KentPerry
        
        Looks heated to me Jeff you are here and everyone is ripping on you. Who drew first blood? You did as usual. Oh and the blood thing,, just a metaphor jeff. Just incase you get context wrong like you usually do.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am sure everything seems heated to you in your delusional mind. But these are simply posts on a website. I drew first blood? Posting an opinion is drawing first blood? You truly are a loon.
      - KentPerry
        
        Metaphors, euphemisms, colloquialism's idioms. axiom, and CONTEXT, you never seem to grasp any of that Jeff and we have all seen it
      - Esther
        
        I just started one on the first amendment and common enemies of the U.S.A.!
      - Esther
        
        What have I done to be talked about behind my back like this, Kent? There is absolutely no reason to go on about it. Don't you all have more important problems to solve like World Peace? For example, address the issues of a common enemy to the U.S.A.? Why waste all this time? Also, I don't feel sorry for Jeff or anyone except for myself having to write this. Please, I hate to reprimand grown men. I converse with Jeff when I have something to say about the topic and he never treats me like I am doing something wrong all the time like the pseudo-Christians do. They have scared practically every other Saint off the forum. Don't you believe in the first amendment?
      - Esther
        
        1st paragraph: No, wrong Kent. Where do you get this preposterous stuff.
        
        2nd paragraph: Wrong again. I respect Jeff. I feel sorry for you, Kent. Your behavior is unbecoming an officer. Does your local VA Hospital need group leaders in group discussions for men of your caliber who may be suffering trauma? As passionate as you are in correcting others you might find a pleasant environment doing just that with people who understand the needs of an officer like yourself.
        
        Remember Kent. You and I were forced to go to church. Remember what they told us: If we missed mass and we died we would go to Hell. And they told us what hell is like. Jeff's parents didn't tell him all those things, so he did not learn to "believe" by intimidation. I don't just respect him, I also am envious he has no guilt like I do if I miss church.
        
        Bottom line: You will not force Jeff to believe. He is not programed by his parents like us!
      - Esther
        
        It's called slander, RonMar. How can you take it so lightly?
      - RonMar
        
        You presume to teach me about slander. I am curious how you can do such a thing not knowing me at all and not sharing any of your qualifications to do so.
        
        I have not slandered Jeff, nor have I seen anyone else do so.
        
        For starters to teach you something about the subject, since all here is in writing and in public it is libel not slander.
        
        Your turn now since you have walked into a subject about which you obviously know little-nothing with someone you don't know at all.
      - Esther
        
        The people of an entire "club" mentality that you have stepped into in this forum are constantly accusing him of being a bad person, and you are egging it on. Please re-read your statement. You did not directly slander him. I did not accuse you of that. I pointed you to what he is dealing with… it seems you do not make fine distinctions either… slander or libel… both indicate the kind of atmosphere Jeff and others who don't fall in line, or fit the mold, encounter with many in this forum, where the rules of debate are infrequently applied. It's mostly ad hominem i.e., slander or libel, you get the point. If what you call what I said is untrue, that what Jeff is dealing with is slander — or libel — than hang around awhile. He has been posting on this forum two years he has said and knows many here very well. So he and many others have a long history.
      - RonMar
        
        Once again all you have done is blather, spew your opinions, and you did not address at all my challenge to you – "I am also curious about why you are expending so much effort supporting Jeff's faith belief."
        "I pointed you to what he is dealing with" – come on, spit it out, say plainly and clearly what you are trying to say. You are making no more sense than Jeff does in his feeble attempts to communicate.
        I have been around here for a few months, if not years also, but longevity doesn't mean squat unless you are posting something worthy of attention. So far neither you nor Jeff has met that criterion.
      - Esther
        
        You said I accused you of slander. I showed you that I did not.
        
        It's not my fault you convolute things into the oblivion of confusion, which you just did.
      - RonMar
        
        Esther•6 hours ago "It's called slander, RonMar. How can you take it so lightly?"
      - Esther
        
        already addressed above
      - KentPerry
        
        Esther He isn't egging it on. Just try and see this situation outside your infatuation with that jerk. Oh and he IS a Jerk and you need to step away and get a new perspective on just what you are defending. Not who,, but what. Jeff isn't human anymore esther. He is for all intents and purpose
        
        already dead.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yep, in a nutshell, the entire problem with religion boiled down to a simple sentence. According to Kent the loon, I am not even human. Therefore, it makes no difference what happens to me. Wipe out people, groups, cities, countries or cultures. Who cares, they are not even human.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        She can understand stupidity, you loon.
      - KentPerry
        
        That's what we are afraid of Jeff. You see when you UNDERSTAND STUPID,, YOU ARE ALREADY GONE. That is why idiotic explanations like yours DON'T MAKE SENSE! It's because they are S-T-U-P-I-D Jeff! That means no one in their RIGHT MIND would understand why, or what or how anything so stupid COULD be understood. But It is so good to see you among them. Somewhere there is a Village out there and they are missing their idiot. Now I can tell them where they can find you Jeff.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        But since everything you post is idiotic, it is hard to understand your position.
      - KentPerry
        
        I am here for one reason Jeff until I am told otherwise, my position is simple.
        
        It is to oppose you, as long as I can, the best I can and with Gods help to defeat you in your purpose here to lead people to the dead end life you have made of yours. Atheists like you remind me of Vampires you are that ugly inside.
        
        You may have esther fooled, and she is somewhat of a casualty of spiritual warfare. That is not to say she is lost or that you have destroyed her soul. No nothing like that. It's unfortunate she doesn't have all the evidence of what she sees as your heart stopping staggering intellect. I mean she is the only one usually so impressed with what I would call your "Nothing much" posts.
        
        Part of the collateral damage she becomes a woman so desperate to find an underdog they can support, a life in such turmoil, she can rescue.
        
        Someone you are MORE than willing to take advantage of. I would rather just ask you outside and well,, the bigger they are the harder they fall is a lesson I am pretty certain I can prove big guy.
        
        It's also more likely,, you couldn't control the knee shivers as your jeans shift back and forth like you got urinate so bad you can't hold it much longer and the gasps to breath as you try to talk, she would pick up on that too, because basically, as BIG as you are,,. you're coward.
        
        That's true of most atheists I believe. NOT all.. but certainly most and definitely where you are concerned. You know what is so weird about this whole thing Jeff, is YOU don't even know who you are yet.
        
        But I do and you're the same loser
        
        you've always been
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, goodie for you. And I am here to show you for the psychopathic loon that you are. Esther is a big girl and can make her own decisions. However, I see that you are not capable of that as your initial comment stated.
        
        KentPerry • 9 hours ago • parent−
        
        Jeff Dixon: "I am here for one reason Jeff until I am told otherwise, my position is simple."
        
        So, instead of deciding what to do on your own, you simply follow orders. You would have made a great Nazi.
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie, like your girlfriend, Esther, you have worn out your welcome with me. I will not waste any more time or effort with you and your childish name calling. From this post forward I will not reply to you. I may post for the benefit of other readers and posters about you, but not to you, not ever again.
        Try to make your life a good one. Goodbye and good luck. That's all you've got going for you in your present state.
      - Esther
        
        flagged as inappropriate
      - Esther
        
        RonMar has his feeling hurt because he wanted my answers but he would not yield any of his own. He claims to be a bible scholar but does not put forth any practical solutions for the particular social problems we are experiencing in this country, notably I asked his opinion on the various cases on topic. No response.
      - Esther
        
        Tell whomever in your flock sent you, we'll see them later. Remember it is not about you RonMar, it is about other people becoming your bondslave. (sarcasm) Your new friend, Esther
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I have never met Esther before. Just another topic on which you are wrong. Frankly, I could not care less what you do. Post, don't post, it makes no difference to me.
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff has it like this, the more calling him mistaken, the more RIGHT he is. That's why I stay away from atheist websites. I am stupid just for going there. NOT mistaken but STUPID. Jeff like most Godless narcissist Haters of Christianity, , loves the attention.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you are stupid for for your belief in the delusional idea of god.
      - KentPerry
        
        Mmmm yeah I get that you think that way.
        
        So what?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Exactly.
      - KentPerry
        
        ditto
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, you did get the part of you being stupid correct.
      - KentPerry
        
        Which is why I said I don't go there, My my listening to an entire forum of athiests,, I don't see how I wouldn't lose IQ points by the minute I read your stuff and start becoming retarded I have to leave and take a break or lose my mind.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It does not matter if you go there. You are simply a moron.
      - KentPerry
        
        Of course I am Jeff,, here we are after I get here expose a few of your tricks and its all one liners again coming from you,, NO DATA TO CITE AS TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ASSERTION THAT I'M A MORON JEFF?? No post proving it? Other than those I expose your nothing upstairs but brain stem with an angst for infants guilty of nothing and you like to see murdered manipulating woman into doing it with all that crap pop psychology you vomited here tonight. Like I said Jeff,, you're a loser and you will always be a loser. Too bad we couldn't abort you, it isn't like your mission in life has a chance of succeeding
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Kent, dropping your IQ from 48 to 46 is no big whoop. You are still a moron regardless.
      - fliteking
        
        Typical stunted response from the left.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Not a liberal.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You are a liberal he isn't
      - fliteking
        
        :)
      - Esther
        
        LOL. WRONG.
      - fliteking
        
        'I can't be sure God DOES NOT exist': World's most notorious atheist Richard Dawkins admits he is in fact agnostic
        
        So . . . the acres and acres of dogma on the Internet do not convince the god of Atheism. Obviously focusing on the same can blind a Soul . . . permanently.
        
        Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105834/Career-atheist-Richard-Dawkins-admits-fact-agnostic.html#ixzz2AbeiX4rF
        Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        “Confession”? “Stunned”? Nobody who had read The God Delusion would have been stunned. I there introduced a 7-point scale, in which 7 was
        
        “Strong atheist: ‘I know there is no God . . .” and 6 was “Very low probability [of existence of gods] but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’”
        
        I went on:
        
        “I’d be surprised to meet many people in category 7 . . . I count myself in category 6, but leaning towards 7 – I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden.”
        
        In my discussion with the Archbishop I called myself a 6.9. A man I met at the drinks afterwards called himself a “six point nine recurring”, and I agreed with him. Also in The God Delusion I called myself a “Tooth Fairy Agnostic”, quoting a culturally Jewish friend.
        
        I am actually drawn to the Steve Zara / PZ Myers point that it is hard to think of any evidence that would in principle be capable of convincing me of a god’s existence (a trick, or a hallucination, or insanity, or even a visitation by an evolved super-human from outer space would always be more probable). But I didn’t feel like raising this in the Sheldonian, where it would have been so far off the radar of either of my two colleagues as to lead to no fruitful exchange. There was also the risk of a blast of epistemic incomprehensibility from the philosophical referee. And that would have been no way to finish off a civilised evening.
        
        To be fair to the infamous Daily Telegraph, they make partial amends by publishing another article,this time by Tom Chivers, under the headline, "Richard Dawkins is an agnostic? Well, obviously." In it he says:
        
        Richard Dawkins, the world's most famous atheist (© all newspapers) is, it turns out, an agnostic! What a climbdown! Not so cocky now, eh, professor? In a debate with the magnificently eyebrowed Archbishop of Canterbury, the great evolutionary biologist said that he can't be certain that God doesn't exist, and that he would call himself an agnostic.
        
        Except that Dawkins said exactly that – even down to the "6.9 out of seven" description of his level of surety that there is no God – ages ago.
        
        It’s hard to resist a feeling of “You can’t win”. On the one hand we ‘horsemen’ and ‘new atheists’ are attacked, often aggressively and stridently, for being aggressive and strident. On the other hand, when journalists or religious apologists actually meet us and we turn out to be courteous and civilised, they accuse us of climbing down, “admitting” or “confessing” that we have changed, when actually we are behaving exactly as we always have. They seem to feel let down when they discover that the real people aren't anything like the way they so relentlessly portray us; as if, since they've gone to the trouble of inventing extravagant caricatures of us, we should at least have the decency to live up to them in real life.
        
        It would be nice to think the journalists might have learned something from this experience. I suppose it’s probably asking too much that some of them might get around to actually reading The God Delusion at long last, rather than simply continuing to denounce their own invented version of it.
      - Esther
        
        I love this part: "They seem to feel let down when they discover that the real people aren't anything like the way they so relentlessly portray us; as if, since they've gone to the trouble of inventing extravagant caricatures of us, we should at least have the decency to live up to them in real life." Thanks Jeff.
      - fliteking
        
        You are clearly a liberal and a progressive. Remember, lying does not make a reality.
      - Esther
        
        Where on earth have you been? Jeff Dixon is neither.
      - RonMar
        
        Many people are Liberals/Progressives – the latter since Liberal became such a dirty word against them – and they do not know it or will not admit to it. As a matter of fact only 20% or so will admit they are a Liberal. Others self-identify themselves in order as Conservtives, Moderates and Independents.
      - Esther
        
        There are over 300,000,000 people in America with two major political parties… and a few others as you have pointed out. Our founding documents, among other things, advocate to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our founders specified not a single definition of these other than to put in place our protections for these humane attributes and laws to prevent deliberate efforts to deter them. These labels you assign are just that… labels… and they do not represent the humanity of the person to whom you assign. We have to choose one of the groups to vote, for example. That's it! It is usually a "best fit". How otherwise can two parties suffice for 3000,000,000 people? My ultimate point is: Try looking beyond the label RonMar, you may find some pleasing discourse there.
      - RonMar
        
        Senseless and needless babble trying to tell me things I already know or have heard before and dismissed. Like it or not, the U.S. has a two-party political system, no candidates outside those two parties or write-ins have a chance of being elected. That may not always be so, but it has been throughout my lifetime so far which I believe far exceeds yours. I expect it to be so through the remainder of my lifetime or that of the U.S. and the world as we know them.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Correct, and I have been an advocate for Romney before he was selected as the Republican nominee. So, based on that factual statement, how am I a liberal?
      - KentPerry
        
        No one denies there are such labels in the Constitution but THERE ARE TWO PARTYS and THEY BOTH HAVE IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES or at least they USED TO. Now I understand how Romney got chosen as the republican candidate, he has the same ideas as you have apparently
      - Esther
        
        Tell me what is wrong with this statement Kent: "Our founding documents, among other things, advocate to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our founders specified not a single definition of these other than to put in place our protections for these humane attributes and laws to prevent deliberate efforts to deter them."
        
        This is a recipe for small government, as in the following, quote:
        
        “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”~Patrick Henry
      - KentPerry
        
        I agree with all that. Even when a brand new American is still inside his or her mom eager to live that life in pursuit of that happiness. Jeff would have that person executed thinking it's that mothers right to take all that away. I disagree on that one so much it took six cops to get me out of the abortion clinic when I found out where and when these liberal butchers and my ex girlfriend were going to murder my son.
      - Esther
        
        I hope you saved him!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        How did an upstanding Christian impregnate someone who is not his wife? Kent, I am shocked. (eyes roll) You engaged in premarital sex? How is that even remotely possible????
        
        Did you ever consider the idea that the reason your ex-girlfriend wanted to get an abortion is that she could not contemplate the idea that your psychotic views would be an influence on her child?
        
        So, besides being a loon, you are also a hypocrite.
      - KentPerry
        
        I am going to retire for the evening Good seeing you here tonight. I'm going to try very hard to change your mind about Calvinists Esther. And this idea you have that I am a psycho.. That is Jeff putting that crap in your head and if anyone is a psycho, it's a baby killer
      - Esther
        
        I will work on him. My faith tells me he is also a child of the Father.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it is someone who admits to killing another person. You know, like you.
      - KentPerry
        
        Esther, I am disgusted with the two party's and don't recvognize them anymore. BUT I DO REMEMBER NOT TOO LONG AGO when Gays were not welcome in the republican party unless they kept there sexual bent to themselves and paying for things like the Dept of Education used to be a liberal idea. Their are those in the libertarian party who will accept what gays want and what states say they should be able to decide. I liked ron paul because what he said he was about didn't change with the audiences ideology. His voting record was the most impressive I have ever seen in my life.
      - KentPerry
        
        Esther he IS, how can you not see that? He supports Gays he openly admits to the most iconic liberal issues and ideas about Abortion, Same Sex Marriage, he has the same regard for religion as Bill Maher, saying Jeff is not a liberal,, C'mon Esther.. I know he is your friend and all but at the expense of your own intelligence?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The concept of being a liberal is one who wants the government to be in control. Which is what you want.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh really? No Jeff I am a Ron Paul guy, I am so into the guy I helped with his campaign, I used to do the same for a republican I was deeply hurt by and I never let party stuff make my decisions because I knew long ago much of the two party paradigm was being blurred by people JUST LIKE YOU.
        
        I write stuff like this because I actually GO to these places jeff and SEE what these kids are actually getting in schools. I see the Dads whose faces get red with rage because their tax dollars are paying for crap like this and by the way THIS means Governor Romney http://ultramedia.freehostia.com/controversy/gaysmakemesick.html
      - Esther
        
        LOL BOTH OF YOU ARE LIBERTARIANS …
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Ron Paul has some good ideas, but he is weak on defense. And that issue is where I depart from the Libertarians. The world is a far more dangerous place without a strong America at the helm.
      - KentPerry
        
        He is not weak on defense jeff and you know very little about that too. You ever been in a War Mr. Chicken Hawk? Ever been over seas? ever taken the oath?
        
        No of course not but you know all about Ron Paul's idea for defense is weak. Jeez you're such a foolish little twit minded fool
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not need to serve in the military to know that Ron Paul is weak in that issue.
      - KentPerry
        
        No I don't I want to control the Government TO LEAVE YOU ALONE.
        
        https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oVx3LVw5VpukcXvOO4QxO751aV_3cKMVNDdn0KOfKpI/edit
      - Esther
        
        Jeff is definitely not for big government and limitless government infringement on the individual, that's a fact, Kent. He is an tireless in that as you are in convincing others he is not. REALLY! It doesn't matter whether he is my friend!
        
        He is an amateur biologist who probably knows more than most biologists about any biology you can name and has shown repeatedly information on the very existence in nature of homosexual activity. I am against the displays that we know has existed by the liberal contingent for sexual exploitation and all that in the gay community. I am totally against it, BUT it does exist in nature. Why turn a blind eye to the fact? I don't want homosexual den leaders in my boys' cub scout group! But hey, look at all the years the Catholic church hid their homosexual activities!!! It is not like it hasn't always been with us. Let's shine some light on the subject. In the United States we can fit it into our constitutional republic.
        
        Are you a father? One of my mother's sisters at 17 tried to abort her child with a clothes hanger in a closet, to keep it secret because she had "sinned"… I bet if that were your child you would hope she would not have the fear to tell you or she would have had the option to speak to a doctor without recriminations, something other than the only recourse she had and that was to kill herself! What say you, Kent?
        
        What is the solution? I DO NOT KNOW. I just think that we should be able to recognize reality for sure. We need some critical debate at grassroots to find solutions and not just destroy each other. Otherwise the government will do it.
      - KentPerry
        
        He is a Hobbyist studying the false science of evolution superfluously added to Biology. That doesn't make him the discoverer of the gay gene nor does any of the rest of the BS he has polluted your mind with against me matter, He is FULL OF CRAP ESTHER. He is a Predator!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        In what way am I a predator?
        
        You can call evolution a false science, but your claim does not determine the facts. The science of biology has exploded with new discoveries since the concept of Evolution has been added to it.
      - KentPerry
        
        Compared to what jeff? To all the discoveries it COULD have had if not for all the idiots spending their time still trying to prove evolution. It has been the biggest hoax of the last century and a half idiot.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, compared to what they did not discover before the theory of evolution was introduced.
      - KentPerry
        
        Examples Jeff? Evolution has had no bearing on any advances in Medicine or Biology Jeff. Debate me on it all you like and I will prove your asinine examples are as stupid as you are for believing they prove a damn thing.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The Escape of the Pathogens: an evolutionary arms race
        
        Human populations are constantly locked in evolutionary arms races with pathogens that invade our bodies. We must recognize that these pathogens (such as the flu virus shown at right) are continuously evolving entities in order to develop better ways to fight them and control their evolution.
        
        An ounce of prevention…every year?
        Recently, the mayor of New York City called upon citizens to get a head start on one particular evolutionary arms race: "I urge older New Yorkers and others at risk to protect themselves from flu and pneumonia through a simple and proven ounce of prevention: immunizations. The time to get immunized is now, before the peak of the flu season."1
        
        Many of those New Yorkers had already gotten flu shots the year before and the year before that, but, perhaps strangely, they were being asked to get yet another immunization. Why do we need a new flu shot every year? Can't modern medicine invent just one vaccine that would do the trick?
        
        Flu viruses evolve rapidly.
        As they circulate through populations around the world and switch hosts, flu viruses change so much that our vaccines are rendered obsolete every year. The flu is a problem for which a solution must be redesigned and rebuilt every year, like a bridge that gets washed away every flood season. Only by understanding the flu as an evolving entity can we understand why our solution to the problem must change every year.
        
        Every day we come into contact with millions of bacteria and viruses. Some are harmful and others are beneficial, while the rest have no apparent effect on our health. When harmful microorganisms enter our bodies, a battle ensues.
        
        Rapid reproduction and natural selection
        Because bacteria and viruses reproduce rapidly, they evolve rapidly. These short generation times — some bacteria have a generation time of just 15 minutes — mean that natural selection acts quickly. In each pathogen generation, new mutations and gene combinations are generated that then pass through the selective filter of our drugs and immune response. Over the course of many pathogen generations (a small fraction of a single human lifetime), they adapt to our defenses, evolving right out from under our attempts to rid ourselves of them.
        
        Applying our knowledge of evolution
        But that doesn't mean that we should stop trying to win these battles. By understanding these pathogens as evolving entities, subject to the same processes of evolution that we can study in fruit flies or the fossil record, we may be able to identify ways to slow their progress.
        
        http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/medicine_02
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Modern applications of evolutionary biology
        
        There are numerous ways to apply evolutionary biology to our needs today, among them:
        
        prolonging the life of drug/chemical resistant compounds
        
        constructing evolutionary trees
        
        pathogen tracking
        
        industrial production of biochemicals and other agents
        
        1. Drug resistance and chemical resistance in microbes, plants, and animals. In the latter half of this century, industry has been exceptionally good at providing compounds to kill viruses, bacteria, insects that eat crops and weeds that grow in crop fields. We even have an abundance of chemotherapy drugs to kill rogue cancer cells. Yet virtually without exception, our attempts to kill these organisms cause them to evolve resistance against the chemicals used to kill them. For example:
        
        AIDS is an example of a virus that evolves to thwart its destruction.
        
        Isolates of the AIDS virus with up to 15 different drug-resistance mutations are known, and the latest drugs are becoming ineffective.
        
        Some strains of bacteria are resistant to all available antibiotics.
        
        For multi-drug resistant tuberculosis, surgery is the only cure because antibiotics don’t work and only 50% of those infected survive.
        
        Chemotherapy for cancer often fails because drug-resistant cells evolve during treatment.
        
        Pesticide resistance and herbicide resistance is so common now that the financial incentive to make new pesticides and herbicides is break-even or worse.
        
        Evolutionary biology suggests how best to prolong the useful life of drugs/chemicals. The amounts of chemicals used, what combinations of chemicals to use, and when to apply them are all questions that can be assessed from the perspective of preventing or slowing the evolution of resistance. In some cases now, the companies marketing the compounds have a financial interest in maintaining the longevity of their product, and they are funding studies by evolutionary biologists to develop wise use protocols. In other cases, however, economic and emotional forces dictate policies that speed up the evolution of resistance (e.g., patients demand and physicians write prescriptions for antibiotics for viral infections; antibiotics are used in animal feed).
        
        Evolutionary trees help scientists track pathogens that cause disease.
        
        2. Evolutionary trees Perhaps the core of evolutionary theory is that all life forms are connected to each other through common ancestry. Molecular biology has reinforced this view to a far greater level than was deemed possible even 50 years ago. On a short time scale, of course, we observe that this is true — everything alive comes from something else that is both alive and similar. One of the big developments in evolutionary biology over the last 2 decades is a methodology to estimate the underlying patterns of ancestry among living things. These reconstructions of evolutionary history are known as phylogenies, or phylogenetic trees, because they are branched somewhat like trees when drawn from bottom to top. We can use molecular data to estimate the common ancestries of life as far back as we like — for example, between bacteria and our mitochondria (the energy-producing organelles in our cells). But we can also use these methods to estimate much more recent ancestries. And these methods have found many worthy uses in tracking infectious diseases.
        
        3. Molecular epidemiology — pathogen tracking To an epidemiologist studying infectious diseases, it is very useful to know how or where a person became infected with the disease. This information is perhaps the most basic fact we can use in preventing the further spread of a disease. For over a decade now, epidemiologists have been using DNA sequences of viruses to make phylogenetic trees and thereby track the sources of infections. Some of these examples are spectacular.
        
        Law: A case of intentional HIV injection?
        In a highly publicized case in Lafayette, Louisiana in 1998, a woman claimed that her ex-lover (a physician) deliberately injected her with HIV-tainted blood (HIV is the virus that causes AIDS). There were no records of her injection and no witnesses. So how could her story be tested? Evolutionary trees provide the best scientific evidence in a case like this.
        
        A woman’s claim to how she was infected with AIDS was supported by evolution.
        
        HIV picks up mutations very fast — even within a single individual.
        
        If one person gives the virus to another, there are few differences between the virus in the donor and the virus in the recipient.
        
        As the virus goes from person to person, it keeps changing and gets more and more different over time.
        
        Thus, the HIV sequences in two individuals who got the virus from two different people will be very different.
        
        Thus, if the woman’s story were true, her virus should be very similar to the virus in the person whose blood was drawn but should be very different from viruses taken from other people in Lafayette.
        
        That was exactly what the evolutionary trees showed; her virus appeared to have come from the patient’s virus but was unlike the virus taken from other people in town.
        
        Since there was no way to explain how she would have gotten that patient’s virus on her own, the evolutionary analysis supported her story. (Incidentally, this case was the first use of phylogenetics in U.S. criminal court.)
        
        Other cases Evolutionary trees have been used in many other cases of infectious disease transmission:
        
        the transmission of the AIDS virus by a dentist to his patients
        
        deer mice as the source of hantavirus infections in the Four-Corners area
        
        the source of rabies viruses in human cases, leading to the discovery of a case in which rabies virus took at least 7 years to kill a person
        
        whether recent cases of polio in North America were relict strains from the New World, were vaccine strains, or were introduced from Asia
        
        4. Industrial production of biochemicals and other agents “Directed evolution”, i.e. artificially-induced evolution, has become part of the jargon in biotechnology:
        
        Biotechnology allows us to give direction to evolution.
        
        Artificially evolved enzymes and other proteins are soon to become part of household and medical technologies.
        
        We will have protein-based drugs that, unlike the proteins inside our bodies, degrade slowly so that we don’t need to take so much of them.
        
        Enzymes are being evolved to work in detergents (which they don’t normally do).
        
        And as the stuff of futuristic novels, molecules are being developed to bind anthrax spores, ricin molecules, and other potential bioterrorism agents.
        
        All of these developments take advantage of one or more forms of test-tube evolution. Armed with a knowledge of how natural selection works and combined with the right kinds of laboratory technology, people can create molecules to perform seemingly any kind of function. In some of the more spectacular cases, these test tube evolution methods have created enzymes from purely random pools of DNA (or RNA) sequences. Even 10 years ago, it was thought that a DNA enzyme was impossible, yet armed with only an understanding of how to apply test tube evolution, a DNA enzyme can now be created in days.
        
        http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/bull.html
      - KentPerry
        
        Not one thing you said Proves evolution Jeff. Everything you said was an assertion
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is examples by biological scientists who study the issue.
      - KentPerry
        
        They are NOT evolving moron, they are adapting. This ability is not an attribute that comes about by mutation and Natural Selection shouldn't even be used as proof of evolution when all natural selection is hard coded in the DNA and this includes the antibiotic resistance of virus's.
        
        Horizontal Gene Transfer does NOT prove evolution. On the contrary, it disproves it.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course they are evolving. Evolution is change. That is exactly what they are doing. Your desire that it not be so is irrelevant.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh thats brilliant Jeff, sort of like your never stop praying comment means 24/7 and your flip flop on Buddha and now you want claim horizontal gene transfer proves molecules to man transpeciation. HA HA HA HA Problem is Jeff
        
        IT DOESN'T
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I find it interesting that instead of debating me, you attempt to debate me with someone else. Yes, I do agree with a woman's right to choose. I also am in favor of comprehensive birth control education to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Yes, I favor same sex marriage. You rail against gays being promiscuous yet are against them being in a lifetime commitment with one other person. I am an atheist. What position do you think I would hold on the idea of religion?
        
        However, I am in favor of upholding the Constitution. Therefore, I want the federal government to only be in charge of the things that the Constitution allots to them. Unless the Constitution gives the feds authority, it should be a concern for the states to deal with.
      - KentPerry
        
        Debate you?? Ha ha ha No Jeff, I don't debate atheists like you for same reason Jesus Christ never did. Jesus NEVER argued with idiots.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        According to your book of fables, Jesus contended with Satan. Now Satan, according to your book of fables, is fully aware that Jesus is his lord and savior, yet denies that fact. He attempts to get Jesus to worship him. Now since Jesus knows that Satan is an idiot, YET, still engages him in conversation, he did argue with an idiot.
        
        So, yet another of your "arguments" reduced to nothing. What else do you have moron?
      - KentPerry
        
        There you go again interjecting your little digs that only imply insulting remarks. This is what I'm talking about Jeff. If you were serious about having any higher reason for being here other than to insult people. You would have left out the part where you keep saying "your book of fables" . YOU might think Satan is an idiot but again that would be YOUR opinion. I was talking about human beings as the idiots jeff. You know,, people like you. What Satan did was a flaw in his own thinking trying to tempt Jesus. He like you,, keeps making the same mistake believing himself to be smarter than everyone else. If I say I am going to persuade millions of people to quit believing in something I think is only a DELUSION,, and I think I can do it by calling everyone delusional,, Ill tell you what will happen. Whether it is true or not is one thing but my calling everyone delusional, is about the most stupid thing I can do to meet my objectives and THAT is why everyone would be calling YOU,,
        
        the idiot.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Not everyone is calling me an idiot, Kent. In fact, many on here have stated that I have made them think more in depth about what they believe. Now that is pretty amazing for an idiot, isn't it? The reality is that it makes no difference what I post,
        you will call it idiotic for one reason; that I do not accept the myth of
        Jesus. I call the bible a book of fables for one very specific reason. For far
        too long, people have treated it with a respect it does not deserve.
      - KentPerry
        
        No jeff you're being an idiot again. It's more accurate to say perhaps a few have but your posts typically get the exact response they deserve.
        
        Care to count the "Many" allegedly saying all that BS you claim
        
        Good Luck idiot.
        https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=SITE%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fzionica.com+Jeff+Dixon&oq=SITE%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fzionica.com+Jeff+Dixon&gs_l=hp.12…2313.2313.0.3799.1.1.0.0.0.0.190.190.0j1.1.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.2.Szf3ZINQ6Ao
      - KentPerry
        
        I have been using my programming skills to make a little software proggy of all your posts so that it will be easier to catch the many logic traps you step in. If anyone would like it they can post their interest with an email address. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=SITE%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fzionica.com+Jeff+Dixon&oq=SITE%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fzionica.com+Jeff+Dixon&gs_l=hp.12…2313.2313.0.3799.1.1.0.0.0.0.190.190.0j1.1.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.2.Szf3ZINQ6Ao
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        A computer program devoted to little ole me? Wow, you are obsessed with me.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh yes Jeff, You are here to get attention so I think I am going to give you that attention. Not the kind you want but the kind stupid little jerks like you deserve.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        As I continually point out, you are a psychopath. You have decided to try and inflict "pain"on me, so you devote your free time to coming up with a pointless computer program to track me. Well, have fun with that. It will not improve your skill at refuting the points I make.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh Jeff I have made you famous in ways YOU haven't even been made aware of yet son. But you will,, in time and you will finally get the attention you crave.
        
        Ha ha ha I got plans for you Jeff. You big lug you. ha ha ha
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, a veiled threat now? Wow, you are a psychopath.
      - Esther
        
        Who wants to be famous, Kent? Do you have a son, Kent? Why do you call Jeff your son? We may be getting a clearer picture of you too, Kent. Keep it up.
        
        BTW, Jeff doesn't need a Dad, his Dad who is ill, lives with him. Did you catch that on an earlier post?
      - Esther
        
        Your assessment of Jeff is all wrong, Kent. You are missing something that I am not sure I understand, but I will.
      - Esther
        
        Patently absurd Kent!
      - Esther
        
        Kent said to Jeff: "There you go again interjecting your little digs that only imply insulting remarks."
        
        Me: This is patently absurd, Kent. What on Earth are you doing?
        
        Kent said to Jeff: "If you were serious about having any higher reason for being here other than to insult people. You would have left out the part where you keep saying "your book of fables.""
        
        Me: I believe the U. S. Constitution protects our rights of free speech. You are interfering with that protection, I don't care what he believes. You are out of line.
        
        So you are community organizing against Jeff. Why? On your own accord to bring everyone around to your turn of mind. That is not going to happen because Jeff does encourage people to think about what they believe, even to clarify their personal discussion of their beliefs, which he often disagrees, but which he never shows disrespect as you do. Do you understand the difference? Jeff has a right to encounter people one on one in a public forum just as you have, and it is wrong to lambast him as though he doesn't. You are like the Fascist police limiting free speech. Why don't you step back and check out previous posts where he has engaged and queried and argued and agreed on many points with many people. Really I miss his regular conversations with people since you have come in to disrupt everyone's relation with him. Please leave him alone, we all enjoy his point of view, but I don't know of anyone who's had a change of heart about their religion, due to his influence.
        
        One more thing: Jeff does not believe in the biblical god. He has never said there is no God. Do you see the difference? PLEEEEASE see the difference. Also, Jeff is a Humanist like Bertrand Russell, ever hear of them: http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism/humanist-tradition/20century/bertrand-russell I know about them, because I was one of them, so I know one when I see one and Jeff fits the bill !!!!
        
        I was born and raised Catholic by some very goodly parents, so the idea of a belief in God stuck with me, so I had to return to a religion that practices faith in God. GUESS WHAT? Same thing with Jeff. How do I know this? He told us all this over the months I have been on this blog EVERY DAY!!! Only he just does not believe in the biblical god!!! He has that right Kent. LEAVE HIM ALONE.
        
        link accessed 110312
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You clearly have no idea what a liberal is if you believe I am one. I have been loud and clear on what a failure Obama has been.
      - RonMar
        
        Being "loud and clear on what a failure Obama" is does not clear you of being seen as a Liberal/Progressive. Obama is at best strongly influenced by Marxist and Islamist, more likely a Marxist and Islamist because he has said so himself in so many ways, places and times.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Frankly, whether you "clear" me of being a liberal is hardly a concern of mine. I am hardly posting for your approval.
      - KentPerry
        
        Stealing my material now jeff,, I'm flattered
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        When have you ever declared that you are not worried about being called a liberal?
      - KentPerry
        
        I'm not worried about being called a liberal
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it a lunatic you should be concerned with.
      - KentPerry
        
        Then why didn't you say it that way Jeff? You trying to jump around now get us all confuuuuused!! he he https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oVx3LVw5VpukcXvOO4QxO751aV_3cKMVNDdn0KOfKpI/edit
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am sure you take anything you can as flattery.
      - KentPerry
        
        No but when it is my own stuff,, it is the only time you make a lick of sense is when you quote me, so copying me is the sincerest form they say. hehe
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        he he yourself. I have never quoted you. I have no desire to be associated with lunacy.
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff you don't see the irony in that last statement of yours do you dimwit. You declare all of us are lunatics. You spend all your time here arguing with what you claim are certifiable lunatics, but you have no desire to be associated with lunatics.
        
        Sorry pal but anyone looney enough to spend everyday arguing with lunatics, I have to ask myself, who is the bigger lunatic.
        
        Yeah,, Hoss, That would have to be you,
        
        idiot.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        A doctor who operates on sick people is around sickness, however, that does not mean he also is sick. Likewise, I can offer information to people lost to the god delusion without being associated with their lunacy. You truly have a tough time understanding logical comments, Kent.
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff Sick people WANT help,, no one here is asking for your brand of help and YOU ain't no doctor, Hoss. Your way of healing is by pouring salt in the wound while your bedside manner goes on about how it's the patients own damn fault it stings.
        
        Then when someone explains why they don't want you as their doctor,
        
        you tell them its because they don't understand logic.
        
        This is why you're an idiot Jeff
        
        and WoW you really work
        
        HARD AT IT TOO!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Actually not all sick people want help. And some sick people do not know they are sick. Never claimed to be a doctor, hoss, it is just an example. (You might take note
        of how an example can be used without inserting violence into the example)
        
        Actually, I rarely tell people they do not understand logic. I tell you that because you
        are a psychotic loon.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh I see,, and you are the hero to tell them they're sick is that it jeff?
        
        Don't be surprised if like the gay people who don't want to be cured of their queerness,, those you call sick don't want the snake oil you're selling either ok idiot?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Never said I expected anyone to change their opinions, hoss.
      - KentPerry
        
        Then why do it Hoss
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What is your own stuff? Clearing me as a liberal? You have no idea what is being discussed. as usual.
      - RonMar
        
        It is not me that clears or does not clear you but rather you that convicts yourself. Your posts certainly don't have my approval, and I have no idea why you are posting. Do you?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course I know why I am posting.
      - KentPerry
        
        I have been loud and clear on what a liberal Romney is but you not recognizing that Obama is a failure because he is a failure has nothing to do with his being a liberal the same as you calling him a failure has nothing to do with you NOT being a liberal. I know LOTS of liberals that call Obama a failure, Hoss. You know, Jeff Logic isn't your strong suit I can tell you that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        English is obviously not your strong suit, hoss.
      - KentPerry
        
        How would you know Jeff.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I can read
      - KentPerry
        
        you can read? How does that answer my question about the english Jeff? What part are you having trouble with and why do you always assume it is the other guys english that is to blame. You have shown a notorious lack of understanding context here at zionica and numerous people have pointed that out yet its always their fault you can't understand. Someone like you will find nothing but disagreement here and use that to justify your dislike of Christians. You're like the type of guy that hates bikers because they are bully's and to feed that belief behind the guise of proving it to others, you will walk into a Biker bar, stand on a table and announce all Bikers are a bunch of sissies and you'll get your Head Kicked In, saying "See, I told ya they were all bad violent people". Now you may or may not have proven they are violent people but you sure picked a stupid way to do it. So when all the Bikers call you an idiot,, guess what jeff,, I'd have to agree, you're an idiot.
        
        So when you come here calling everyone delusional and that God is a fairytale, You still haven't proven anything but you have proved,,
        
        you're an idiot.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is so amusing that so many of your examples involve violence. Your psychotic nature shines through with every post you offer.
        
        The following link is a grammar check of your comment, Hoss. It shows seven errors.
        
        https://ed.grammarly.com/register/signup/report_pale/?newv=1
      - KentPerry
        
        Jeff if you want to get into a tit for tat about grammar and english to deflect, you go girl but that is just more of your usual avoidance tactics whenever you get painted into a corner. You talk about my psychotic nature and how amusing that is but again, YOU aren't qualified to call anyone psychotic moreover it has nothing to do with the exchange. What I said was an example an illustration given on the most basic level of human common sense and rather than address that example, you go on making more assertions about ones delusional state of mind or psychoses completely missing the point and playing grammar cop like some idiot.
        
        You can pretend you don't understand an you can reach for reasons predicated on bad grammar or the suggestion I don't know the english language if you like but those are just flimsy excuses you use as an opportunity to do the same thing no one here listens to you in the first place and why your reasons for being here are a lot less noble than you would have us believe.
        
        As none of us really believe you
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Too funny. You ask me twice to show the problems your post had with English. I give you your answer and now you try to call it a deflection.
        I have never said I do not make mistakes when I post. However, that does not mean I am incapable of noticing yours. I also did not say I do not understand you. Sadly, I understand you all too well.
        
        Kent, your entire personality is one of a hostile, hate filled and fear mongering bigot. You default to scenarios involving violence as a reflex action. To try and pretend otherwise is laughable.
      - KentPerry
        
        You didn't show me anything Jeff you gave me a link to a place that corrects grammar is all you did.
      - KentPerry
        
        Oh and by the way Jeff if I seem violent to you,, its only because, you are who I am talking to. You are the only one I know so desperate to have the stupid knocked out of him, he imagines me to be psychotic or if I describe a Biker Bar to advise you how NOT to get your head kicked in, that must mean I am the violent one.
        
        You say YOU are laughing,,, ha ha ha
        
        You got me busting a gut Hoss.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it is because you told me you killed someone in a fight, Hoss. It is also because of what you post and how you describe how you react to things.
      - KentPerry
        
        Pulled that one right out of your colon did ya Jeff. You really ought take your head out of there and get some air before ya suffocate, you're already having hallucinations ole boy
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, you are also going to add lying to your game plan? Odd, I am pretty sure that god you claim to believe in frowns on that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I ran your comment through the grammar checker and it showed seven errors. The link I sent showed the results, Hoss.
      - KentPerry
        
        No the link you sent doesn't show the results IDIOT thats what I am telling you when I say you didn't show me anything dumb ass
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I just opened the link again hoss. It does show the results.
        
        Grammarly found 7 critical writing issues and generated 1 word choice correction for your text.
        
        Score: 40 of 100 (weak, needs revision)
      - Esther
        
        You are likely a member there Jeff. I became a member once then withdrew and it would not recognize me. So maybe the is the case. p.s. Will you check my grammar, please?
      - KentPerry
        
        Try emptying your website cash moron.
        
        https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/150344_448789258499590_1605731058_n.jpg
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        If you are unconcerned about your grammar, then stop pretending there are no issues with it.
      - KentPerry
        
        stop pretending I do moron. I guess you found out when you do as I suggest your link doesn't work like I said so now you try to turn this around on me ha ha ha.
        
        You're such a jack ass Jeff
        
        you idiot
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It works for me. Probably the site blocks psychopaths from using it.
      - KentPerry
        
        No Jeff it doesn't block psychos, just those NOT ALREADY SIGNED UP AS MEMBERS AND ALREADY LOGGED IN MORON
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You have a hard time understanding satire, don't you? Not a surprise. Psychopaths generally have no sense of humor.
      - KentPerry
        
        No and I wouldn't know. Especially when your stupidity as funny as it might be to some, only garners pity from others. Me? you only illicit indifference
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Humor is always subjective. Kent, I fully realize your indifference of me. Which is of zero concern to me.
      - RonMar
        
        Many people are Liberals/Progressives – the latter since Liberal became such a dirty word against them – and they do not know it or will not admit to it. As a matter of fact only 20% or so will admit they are a Liberal.
      - Esther
        
        'Definitely not a progressive… Jeff does NOT encourage the growth of BIG GOVERNMENT!!
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes he does because he supports we pay for abortions, teachers unions, the dept of education is a BIG Government idea regardless of party. If that is your criteria, small Government and a guy who thinks Romney is not a liberal?? He supports Romney then he supported the Bailouts, Tarp, the FED, and increasing the debt ceiling. That doesn't sound like a small Government guy Esther
      - Esther
        
        I supported Mitt. Does that make me lost Kent? I have believed Mitt is for small government, not to the extent of Ron Paul, but I am NOT for open borders… I am really surprised you are.
      - KentPerry
        
        How am I for open borders? In fact, what the hell are you talking about ?
        https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xEiDIHjCQrv_JX_Sotf-vsN5gM7sURrsz4RNTIIXxsg/edit
      - Esther
        
        Ron Paul is. I thought you said you supported him.
      - KentPerry
        
        Ron Paul for open borders?? I don't think so ha ha Do you know what his immigration policy is? It is simple, Round em all up and send em back. Put the troops on the border and don't let anyone in period
      - Esther
        
        It was one of the debate statements he made that caused me to think that… I sent you the link earlier and apologized. I have always liked him otherwise. I hope he becomes a force in the next administration. I like his attitude.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Has Ron Paul Done An Immigration 180?
        
        By W. JAMES ANTLE, III on 5.2.11 @ 11:00AM
        
        Is Ron Paul the next "pro-immigration libertarian" to bedevil conservatives? VDare's Washington Watcher columnist surveys Liberty Defined, Paul's latest book, and finds a "tragic turnaround on immigration." In an email to supporters of his PAC Friday, Tom Tancredo accused his former congressional colleague and fellow 2008 Republican presidential candidate of doing a "180 turn" on immigration and "standing with La Raza and the Chamber of Commerce."
        
        "I have served with Ron Paul in Congress for ten years and consider him a friend," Tancredo continued. "While we have differed very publicly on issues such as the threat of Radical Islam, he had generally been an ally on immigration in Congress. He was a solid vote against amnesty, a leader in ending birthright citizenship, and joined my Immigration Reform Caucus."
        
        According to these critics (I haven't read Liberty Defined yet), in his book Paul repeats cliches about illegal aliens only doing jobs Americans won't do, canards about using the Army for mass deportations, and comes out for some kind of "generous visitor worker program" that bars participants from receiving government benefits. Paul remains opposed to amnesty — though Tancredo characterizes this last position as "amnesty with an 'asterisk'" — and birthright citizenship, but is also against Arizona's SB 1070, E-Verify, and employer sanctions against hiring illegal aliens.
        
        What has long separated Paul from open-borders libertarians is his belief in borders and national sovereignty, plus his agreement with Milton Friedman that a welfare state cannot have unlimited immigration. But he has never to my knowledge been interested in restrictionism per se, though as a Rothbardian he ought to be familiar with libertarian arguments for it, and some of these positions that offend immigration restrictionists are nothing new. There are also legitimate civil libertarian concerns with some of the restrictionists' pet legislation, like Real ID.
        
        But if these Liberty Defined summaries are accurate, it does represent a shift in Paul's immigration rhetoric away from the classic paleo position, perhaps in anticipation of competition with the more conventionally open-borders libertarian Republican Gary Johnson. Dan McCarthy worried last year that "instead of the Johnson-Paul tag team making anti-statist and anti-interventionist views more mainstream, Johnson might sidetrack Paul into discussions that would make it easier for the party establishment to marginalize both of them." We'll see.
        
        http://spectator.org/blog/2011/05/02/has-ron-paul-done
      - KentPerry
        
        "What has long "separated" Paul from open-borders libertarians is his belief in borders and national sovereignty, plus his agreement with Milton Friedman that a welfare state cannot have unlimited immigration.
        
        From your own article moron
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        From my own article moron.
        
        Paul remains opposed to amnesty — though Tancredo characterizes this last position as "amnesty with an 'asterisk'" — and birthright citizenship, but is also against Arizona's SB 1070, E-Verify, and employer sanctions against hiring illegal aliens.
        
        So he claims to be against illegal immigration, yet refuses to do anything to prevent it. That is simply pandering. Something you should be full aware of .
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes he doesn't think it is the private business responsibility to do what the Federal Government should be doing Jeff. The rest of that article is flat wrong.
      - Esther
        
        It was something he mentioned during one of the debates: http://paulitifact.com/2011/06/10/claim-ron-paul-wants-open-borders-and-amnesty-for-all-illegal-aliens/ I was wrong
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually I do not support that. I favor eliminating the Education Dept and making education the sole responsibility of the states. You know, like the Constitution requires. I favor a woman's right to choose, but she also has to pay for it. I support Romney because the only other option is Obama and that path leads to the financial ruin of this great country. So, what else do you want to be shown wrong about?
      - Esther
        
        Definitely not a liberal!
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes he is
      - fliteking
        
        When I review you posts via disqus it is quite clear you are a liberal / progressive. Call it what you will, that does not change the truth or your agenda.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I do call it what it is. I am a registered Republican and vote for Republicans. The fact that I support comprehensive birth control education simply makes me a realist.
      - fliteking
        
        Clearly an atheist and pro-abortion, two hallmarks of the liberals. You obviously having feminist leanings too – - -hardly what anyone might expect from a registered republican and clearly not a conservative stance.
        
        You can call yourself part of a club, but being in the club is a wholly different matter.
        
        Perhaps you put more value into a poorly constructed on line persona than living the life a conservative. Perhaps.
      - Esther
        
        So you think you have a "club" where you and Evermytle are the arbiters of the club. Guess what "fliteking" you just admitted yourself into the PROGRESSIVE PARTY, the hallmark party of bigots. Actually "soft bigots" we call them in the South…because they like to stay undetected, under the radar.
      - RonMar
        
        Your oft-repeated "'club'" reference makes no more sense than most of the rest of your other posts and strikes me as childish and silly like a code word between you and Jeffie.
      - Esther
        
        Know the conversation before you comment, PLEASE!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course I am atheist. No one is pro-abortion, however, letting women be in control of their bodies is a very Libertarian point of view. So, you do not believe that women should be allowed to earn a decent living or make choices for themselves? It is not being a feminist, it is being part of humanity. And if you have not noticed, women are half of humanity.
        
        You might put more effort into being a human being instead of parroting idiotic comments.
      - RonMar
        
        No one has any right to murder any baby for the convenience at the time of the murderer. I believe I have explained this in some detail to you already. Obviously my explanation fell on blind eyes, deaf ears and the closed mind of you, who calls other people names childishly and questions their humanity.
      - Esther
        
        I also know Jeff is a great parent. I know this from much earlier posts.
        
        My mom once told me about her sister who became pregnant in the great depression. She was unmarried, 17 years old, made a wrong choice, became pregnant. Her solution: She went into a closet to abort her baby with a clothes hanger. She managed only to kill herself by doing so. Horrific, yes? I think so. She didn't have the social acumen, certainly no money to go to a hospital or seek any advice as she knew she had "sinned" and she tried to hide her "sin" from her godly parents, and that they were.
        
        I believe that was the reason I was raised extremely cloistered Catholic in a community of only Catholics, so no one did anything without parents knowing exactly what their children were up to. My mom taught us birth control is wrong, only in marriage must we have children, etc etc., her laws on the subject to which I abided.
        
        Absolutely nothing justifies murder.
        
        I leave you to solve this conundrum. It boggles my mind how it must be done, because hardly anyone grows up in glass houses anymore. What do you suggest RonMar?
      - RonMar
        
        I'll get back to you later on this and your other more hateful, defensive posts. I have to take a break now, run some errands. Stay with us please. This is good.
      - Esther
        
        I also know Jeff is a great parent. I know this from much earlier posts.
        
        My mom once told me about her sister who became pregnant in the great depression. She was unmarried, 17 years old, made a wrong choice, became pregnant. Her solution: She went into a closet to abort her baby with a clothes hanger. She managed only to kill herself by doing so. Horrific, yes? I think so. She didn't have the social acumen, certainly no money to go to a hospital or seek any advice as she knew she had "sinned" and she tried to hide her "sin" from her godly parents, and that they were.I believe that was the reason I was raised extremely cloistered Catholic in a community of only Catholics, so no one did anything without parents knowing exactly what their children were up to. My mom taught us birth control is wrong, only in marriage must we have children, etc etc., her laws on the subject to which I abided.
        
        Absolutely nothing justifies murder. I leave you to solve this conundrum. It boggles my mind how it must be done, because hardly anyone grows up in glass houses anymore. What do you suggest RonMar?
      - RonMar
        
        Wow! Interesting. Repeating your post 3x – twice as Guest and once as Esther
        - gives it no more weight. As a matter of fact it prompts me to wonder even more
        about your sanity.
        Unnecessary to say I suppose I do not agree that Jeff is a great parent. I
        have not seen any evidence of it in any of his posts. I do not accept that an
        atheist can be a great parent, not even a good or mediocre parent. From among
        the many atheists I know they deny their children opportunity to be exposed to
        any way but the way of the atheists.
        They fight hard against it, as a matter of fact, and do their best to deny
        others the opportunity to expose themselves and their children to any way but
        the way of the atheists. Many cases come to mind, but I will give you full
        credit for knowing about them.
        Jeff may well have condemned his children to the same fate facing him – no
        hope following a lifetime of swimming against the current – values, mores,
        standards and practices of the society in which he and they live.
        Your mom's story is touching. The key words in it, however, are "she … made
        a wrong choice … went into a closet to abort her baby … managed only to kill
        herself by doing so … Horrific … knew she had 'sinned' … [and] tried to
        hide her 'sin' …." She, in fact, made at least four more wrong choices – going
        into the closet, to abort her baby, killed herself, the baby too it appears –
        actually many more by assuming how her parents would react.
        Hiding to commit a sin or while committing sin is commonplace since the
        beginning of recorded history. Some even define sin as that which separates you
        from God and other people.
        The Eve that Jeffie, and possibly you too do not believe in, also Adam tried
        to commit their sins in secret. Then they tried to hide from God. No way since
        God is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-hearing among God's other many qualities.
        
        They followed their attempt to hide by not accepting responsibility for their
        own behaviors. Adam tried to blame Eve and even God. Eve tried to blame the
        serpent and God. The serpent said nothing.
        God administered everlasting punishments on the serpent first. then all
        humankind to follow, but later provided ways, then the ultimate way to escape
        the condemnation of sin, just and merciful as God is – other of God's
        qualities.
        The story may be symbolic, not literally true or actually have happened.
        After all Adam in Hebrew means man. Eve means life or life-producer. No matter
        the results are the same and much is revealed about God and humankind. The
        lessons are there to learn.
        Jeffie, you, anyone else can accept the lessons or not. You have freedom of
        choice, I believe. You reject them at your own peril. We will not know for sure
        who is right or wrong on these matters and much else of the Bible until it is
        too late to do anything about it. Thus we each and all have our faith beliefs
        with some variances in the details and practices of worshipping God or not.
        As for me and my house we stand with God, God's Holy Word and on the promises of the Good News Gospel message. We share it with others as the Bible instructs us to do, and we leave it for them to decide for themselves. We pray the Holy Spirit be with them in their decisionmaking. That's it. That's what we believe
        God expects us to do.
        I don't believe this part of your post, not for a nanosecond – "no one did
        anything without parents knowing exactly what their children were up to." You
        might blow that by some people, but I know too many Catholics to buy it.
        "What do you suggest RonMar?" – I suggest you, Jeff and everyone else read,
        study, learn the Bible, use it for the purpose it was intended and no other,
        understand it as little children can understand it, accept its truths, stop
        looking at it to pick it apart, in prayer for wisdom and understanding, know the
        Good News Gospel message of the Bible, teach it to your children and others,
        then all of you accept it on faith and in wisdom with all your heart, soul, mind
        and strength. And remember you reject it at your own peril.
      - Esther
        
        That only happened when I edited. Don't get excited Pastor.
      - Esther
        
        Thanks Pastor. I accept much of what you said save one thing. I grew up with two parents at all times present in my life, when I was not at home I was at school under the watchful eye of faculty. I do not recall a moment of my life when I was alone with a boy or a man, ever, until I was married. You just don't realize how some families are do you? … 'goes to show you you don't know everything. By the way: You did not answer the question: What do you suggest RonMar? Maybe I was not specific enough: What do you do should your child become pregnant? What if she is not married? What if she is raped? What if she is married and her life is threatened by the growth of the child? That is the kind of tough question Mr. Dixon asks. Maybe he does need some influence, but don't preach to him, discuss the questions with him and how it is practical to deal with them. The hard tough questions. Address those if you will please.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        And you would be wrong as usual. My kids attended church for several years on a regular basis. I never once told them they could not attend. If a child does not understand an issue, they cannot make an informed choice on the topic.My son still goes to church.
      - Guest
        
        … I also know Jeff is a great parent. I know this from much earlier posts.
        
        My mom once told me about her sister who became pregnant in the great depression. She was unmarried, 17 years old, made a wrong choice, became pregnant. Her solution: She went into a closet to abort her baby with a clothes hanger. She managed only to kill herself by doing so. Horrific, yes? I think so. She didn't have the social acumen, certainly no money to go to a hospital or seek any advice as she knew she had "sinned" and she tried to hide her "sin" from her godly parents, and that they were.
        
        I believe that was the reason I was raised extremely cloistered Catholic in a community of only Catholics, so no one did anything without parents knowing exactly what their children were up to. My mom taught us birth control is wrong, only in marriage must we have children, etc etc., her laws on the subject to which I abided.
        
        Absolutely nothing justifies murder.
        
        I leave you to solve this conundrum. It boggles my mind how it must be done, because hardly anyone grows up in glass houses anymore. What do you suggest RonMar?
      - KentPerry
        
        I think any teen so afraid to tell her parents she is pregnant probably has a reason to think she is better off risking a hanger in her vagina like education at a public school where they encourage so much sexual depravity while not much on reproduction. This story you tell is a classic given by liberals almost to the point we are so stupid to believe we don't already understand such a thing used to happen but kids are pretty smart now days. They only have to google it in most cases to find out the risks. But to murder a baby in cold blood and rip it out like it was some kind of wart.
        
        Someone dies trying, I'd say God would call that
        
        Poetic Justice.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What a shock, Kent once defaulting to a position of violence. In your hypothetical example, why would you not know what your daughter is up to? Could it be because she is scared to death of you?
      - Esther
        
        This "story" happened in the Great Depression.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, you have explained your position. However, that does not mean your position is accurate. I am not calling you a name. I am suggesting you join humanity.
      - RonMar
        
        I am humane and well a part of humanity. The question is: Are you either?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually you are not. You want humanity to embrace a delusion about reality.
      - KentPerry
        
        I don't get that from him Jeff,, you see he at least has a grasp of what is happening here, SOMEONE GETS KILLED AND THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS CAPACITY TO SEE REALITY PUNK!
        
        IT EXPLAINS IT!
      - KentPerry
        
        Yeah its so humane to murder a baby ain't it Homicide. You know,, if I ever saw a Physician sticking his little wand up the back of a baby's skull., I think I'd say the same thing this guy does, http://youtu.be/eU45KI8sC4U?t=1m47s
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Which is why you should agree with the idea of comprehensive birth control education. But your tiny mind could never acknowledge that.
        Subject: [zionica] Re: Why Liberals are Misreading Mourdock
      - KentPerry
        
        I have no problem with any education about how NOT to get Pregnant but what does that have to do with MURDERING AN INNOCENT CHILD INSIDE AN ALREADY PREGNANT WOMAN JEFF! EXPLAIN THAT TO ME HOSS BECAUSE I AM REALLY HAVING A HARD TIME WITH THAT ONE tough guy!!@
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Pretty simple Hoss. If the woman does not get pregnant, there is no need to argue over whether an abortion should occur or not.
      - KentPerry
        
        Woman earn a decent living? What the hell are you talking about Jeff'
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The fact that you have no idea what is being discussed is simply reflective of your asinine position.
      - RonMar
        
        You leave open to speculation who you believe is responsible for birth control education. I most certainly do not believe it is the responsibility of Lib-dominated schools. As a matter of fact I believe it borders on criminal for them to be doing so as well as many other things being taught in schools since the 1960s or so, more recently like Islam.
        I believe further that responsible parents should, as many have, remove their children from U.S. public schools.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Many people have removed their kids. However, that does not fix the problems they are experiencing. The teacher unions are a huge problem. But running away from the issue does nothing to resolve. The schools have been teaching an abstinence only program, mainly to appease the religious right in this country, and the results have been a disaster.
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie, please don't be offended, but again you fail to communicate. You must say who the "they" are that you assert "that does not fix the problems they are experiencing." They could be the parents, kids, schools or all of the foregoing.
        "running away from the issue does nothing to resolve" begs the questions: 1) What is the issue? 2) Resolve what? 3) Why do you say, I guess you mean, parents, taking kids out of a deplorable situation with teacher unions as a huge problem, with which I agree wholeheartedly, is running away? 4) And to some extent, who exactly is running?
        Parents have responsibility for their kids. They might have some responsibility for fixing the problems with schools, but I do not believe they have any way or means to do so, certainly not against entrenched, corrupt and misguided bureaucracies at the local, state and Federal levels.
        "The schools have been teaching an abstinence only program, mainly to appease the religious right in this country, and the results have been a disaster." – That simply is not true. The schools have been teaching, e.g., how to engage in sex, how to use condoms and other barrier devices, chemical preventatives, using fear tactics to some extent by teaching about STDs. The schools have also been teaching homosexual, lesbian, bi and transgender behaviors and tolerance of those perversions.
        For God's sake man teachers have even been engaging in sex with their pre-teen and adolescent students. Many of those cases are famous, rather infamous, a few have resulted in murder of spouses. What do we call that – Sex Ed Labs?
        Esther is encouraging me to give you a chance, to be fair, engage in honest debate with you. She has even accused me of some things I have not done here and said I have not done things that I have.
        I am willing to debate the issues, any issue on which I have some expertise, but I am insistent as you have seen on clear communication, truth, facts and evidence.
        
        Speaking of expertise just so you know, I have raised two children, have two grandchildren and have taught in U.S. public schools from elementary/secondary to graduate level and in other venues. The mother of my grandchildren and many of my friends teach in a U.S. public schools and foreign, overseas schools presently. I am an avid reader and greatly concerned about the deterioration of our society.
      - Esther
        
        You said about me "She has even accused me of some things I have not done here and said I have not done things that I have." Ha, some teacher you must be, spreading lies about me. You have convoluted my words to fit your less-than-honorable purposes. 'Ever think that you may be behind the deterioration of our society. I think you are.
      - RonMar
        
        I speak truth. The evidence is in the thread here. I'll leave it to other honest, capable readers (and posters) here who have some judgment to judge who is capable as a teacher, spreading lies, convoluting words for less than honorable purposes, and behind the deterioration of our society.
        The others do not include your little buddy, Jeffie.
      - Esther
        
        I am a teacher. (Ph.D. Chemistry, very early retired, B.A. Philosophy of religion, final project chosen as top paper in my state, new career in oil and gas – not windmills- coming up) No one falls through the cracks in my classroom. And they don't get a free pass even if they bring me apples or are the pastors children in my Sunday School class. So you are going to community organize against me? Right Pastor, one way to get the community organizing going is to denigrate the targets friends. Mr. Dixon's name is Jeff or Jeffrey W. Dixon. He is not your favorite idiot student, got it? "Gotcha"~Sarah Palin
      - KentPerry
        
        I used to think Jeff was the one we were to help..
        
        Now I know it is YOU esther.
        
        Jeff,, he's a goner.. but you,, he is dressing you up girl and if YOU DON'T STOP HIM,, he is going to send you to the party in the clown costume.
        
        Don't let that guy put you together Esther.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you have never thought you were here to help me. Why lie?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not offended. I am amused by your plan of attack.
        
        Here is what I said. "Many people have removed their kids. However, that does not fix the problems they are experiencing."
        
        If you cannot understand that "they" relates to the many people who have removed their kids, one of two things has occurred. One, you cannot follow a train of thought. Second, you are purposefully attempting to make me sound silly. But your comment is completely silly since it is obvious that "they" relates to the preceding sentence. So, are you stupid or being disingenuous?
      - Esther
        
        Mr. Dixon: You should see the nonsense he is writing to me, so thank you for addressing those very tactics.
      - RonMar
        
        If he does not see it he is blind. It is right here in this thread. Lord help me, I am engaged with two …., oh well, I won't say that about them.
      - RonMar
        
        I am not attacking you. I am trying to engage in an adult conversation with you. You are making that impossible.
        In your "one of two things" attack on me, you make false assumptions and like Obama and Dem Libs/Progressives – the latter since Liberal became such a dirty word – refuse to accept responsibility for your own behaviors and shortcomings.
        You refuse also to engage in adult conversation with me. You get childishly defensive and avoid the meat of my post; thus no real conversation occurs, only your ad hominem attacks based on your false assumptions, and closing with your attempt to insult, either or question.
        Know this please: You cannot insult me. No one can insult me unless I have some respect or kind regard for them. Sorry, but you have failed again, miserably as always.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are not trying to engage in an adult conversation. Why try to lie? You stated I made a comment about the word "they" without knowing what I meant. I showed your comment had no basis. Therefore, YOU are the one refusing to engage in an adult conversation.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am still waiting on why you think you are engaged in an adult conversation? ?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am awaiting a reply. Are you stupid or disingenuous?
      - KentPerry
        
        I usually follow they with parenthesis because OBVIOUSLY you are wrong and I too thought "They" (the parents) was referring to "They" the teachers union
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It must be frustrating being always wrong. But I am sure you have gotten used to it.
      - Esther
        
        RonMar: Do your students run in the other direction when they see you at school?
      - RonMar
        
        My former students, since I am now retired from teaching, admire me greatly and seek me out for advice, friendship and loving care. Your hateful, false assumption reveals much about you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course they do. Which we should assume is true based on what?
      - KentPerry
        
        Your point esther?? or just another chip off the civil discourse block. Go ahead,, get out the sledge hammer, I am. Jeff has managed to do what he always does and while Ronmar patiently gives Jeff the facts and truth,, I will only offer him this one time that he is wasting his time and the only thing proper to do is either ignore Jeff and I mean everyone of us OR Cuss the SOB out for being such a complete IDIOT. Now since ignoring him never seems to happen as there are always new members here who think he deserves as chance to have things explained. (as if we haven't tried) and he will find himself another victim. Waste their time teaching him the facts while jeff alternates between other boards spreading the same bullcrap he was just corrected on by RonMar. Yeah,, that's his M.O. esther. Lose the moron before he destroys you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are a loon should be her point.
      - Esther
        
        That was in response to an unjustified insult. He said I did the following Judge Perry: Quote "She has even accused me of some things I have not done here and said I have not done things that I have."
      - KentPerry
        
        You're full of crap Jeff! The Schools have been teaching EVERYTHING NUT ABSTINENCE YOU MORON! WHEN WAS THE LAST PTA MEETING YOU ATTENDED JEFF! You think teaching students how to put a fist in another students rectum is teaching abstinence only!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, the schools are teaching abstinence. I have two kids in high school. I know exactly what they are teaching. Sorry, the only group teaching about putting a fist in a rectum is your group focused on atheists Which makes your group full of crap sadly.
      - KentPerry
        
        How does it make you a realist Jeff? As opposed to what exactly? Because Ill tell you what it doesn't make you sonny.. IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A REPUBLICAN!
        
        What it makes you is a RINO! God knows the party is being destroyed by them too. Then again,, that was always the liberals intent
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Since I am a registered Republican, you are once again wrong. RINO's? You mean like people who want refuse to accept people who are Republicans? Yes, you are a RINO.
      - Esther
        
        Absolutely NOT fliteking… you are way off base, sir. That is simply preposterous.
      - KentPerry
        
        Yes you are
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yawn, do you have anything of interest to address?
      - KentPerry
        
        Something interesting? Coming from YOU??
        
        Oh ,, Hell no.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Hey, it is the hypocrite Christian who got his girlfriend pregnant. So, let us see. You admitted to killing someone and now you tell us you engaged in premarital sex. I will bet there are other commandments you have violated as well. But, please, continue to tell us what a devout Christian you are. Pathetic.
      - KentPerry
        
        Hey Jeff, if I was perfect like you,,, I wouldn't have needed a savior dipshit
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yet you disregard his laws.
    - Evermyrtle
      
      He has thing about women I believe it is called "chauvinist macho!!!!" Somebody should tell him that a woman cannot do any of these things without a man and in my experience it is the man that is always ready to go. I do not believe in all of my life I have of woman getting pregnant without a man. My nephew's wife got pregnant with his baby, and it was his stupid for her to murder the baby in the womb.
      - Esteban Cafe
        
        "I do not believe in all of my life I have [heard] of woman getting pregnant without a man."
        I don't mean to nitpick, but there was The Son of God…
        I'm just messin' with ya EM (I love American colloquial expressions)
      - RonMar
        
        The Son of God was both a man and a deity, and Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God. Small points you might want to try remembering.
      - Esther
        
        The story goes: Christ was conceived, not Mary
      - RonMar
        
        Whatever as the kids say.
        If you prefer Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
        The Bible I use most often says in the Gospel of Matthew, "she was found to
        be with child by the Holy Spirit" and "that which has been conceived in her is
        of the Holy Spirit" supporting your quibbling over the minor point.
        The Gospel of Mark which was written before does not address this early on at
        all.
        The Gospel of Luke, reported to be a physician, says, "you will conceive in
        your womb, and bear a son, and … name Him Jesus."
        So you win, take a kewpie doll please, but only off the bottom shelf.
        Wanna talk about majoring in the minors? Arguing for the sake of arguing?
      - Esther
        
        No, it is not whatever as the kids say.
      - Esther
        
        LOL. I do like to argue for the sake of arguing. :)
    - Esther
      
      This certainly bears some consideration.
  - G. Edward
    
    It took an incredible running start for you to launch that distortion!
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Not really. A normal start was all it took to post the information. .
  - RonMar
    
    What a fool you are misusing God's Holy Word as you do. You have committed blasphemy, and you will suffer for it unless you repent and beg the Lord for forgiveness in the name of Jesus the Christ.
    The passage you present describes a punishment of the woman for committing adultery.
    FYI abortions were not performed at the time of the writing of the OT. Obviously you know nothing of history or the Bible and its meanings in context.
    Try as hard as you want there is no way you can justify a slaughter of babies since Roe v. Wade 9x worse than the WWII Holocaust only against the Jews not counting others Hitler had put to death in horrible ways.
    Murder for the convenience at the time of the mother, far too many of them in
    second and subsequent pregnancies is inexcusable and degrades our entire
    society. No man or woman has a right to commit murder for any reason.
    Norma Corvey – Roe in Roe v. Wade – even rejects abortion. She has an ad running now doing so and telling briefly the story of how she was talked into abortion by advocates of such murder and her lifelong regrets since then.
    Try reading the teachings of Jesus the Christ on care for children. You might
    learn something.
    Know also that you cannot be a Dem Lib and a Christian at the same time. The values, morals, customs and culture are mutually exclusive.
    God help you.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      You should read real history.
      
      The first recorded evidence of induced abortion is from the Egyptian Ebers Papyrus in 1550 BCE.[3] A Chinese record documents the number of royal concubines who had abortions in China between the years 515 and 500 BCE.[4] According to Chinese folklore, the legendary Emperor Shennong prescribed the use of mercury to induce abortions nearly 5000 years ago.[5] Many of the methods employed in early and primitive cultures were non-surgical. Physical activities like strenuous labor, climbing, paddling, weightlifting, or diving were a common technique. Others included the use of irritant leaves, fasting, bloodletting, pouring hot water onto the abdomen, and lying on a heated coconut shell.[6] In primitive cultures, techniques developed through observation, adaptation of obstetrical methods, and transculturation.[7] Archaeological discoveries indicate early surgical attempts at the extraction of a fetus; however, such methods are not believed to have been common, given the infrequency with which they are mentioned in ancient medical texts.[8]
      - RonMar
        
        I do read real history. You should read real history or even study carefully the history you posted here with particular attention to the dates, locations and people involved. I note your post lacks any verifiable source.
        And as I said before, there is no way you can justify a slaughter of babies since Roe v. Wade 9x worse than the WWII Holocaust only against the Jews not counting others Hitler had put to death in horrible ways.
        Murder for the convenience at the time of the mother, far too many of them in
        second and subsequent pregnancies is inexcusable and degrades our entire
        society. No man or woman has a right to commit murder for any reason.
        Norma Corvey – Roe in Roe v. Wade – even rejects abortion. She has an ad running now doing so and telling briefly the story of how she was talked into abortion by advocates of such murder and her lifelong regrets since then.
        Try reading the teachings of Jesus the Christ on care for children. You might
        learn something.
        You are free to advocate the murder of babies all you want. You will be judged. So will I. I have no doubt about that.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        If you consider real history to include Adam and Eve, the flood of Noah or the Exodus, then, no, you are not reading real history.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy
        
        Jeff Dixon, If these are not real history why do you bother to quote Numbers 5:20-22? That passage should be as irrelevant as Genesis and Exodus to you. You can't use such a passage to justify abortion in any way if you invalidate the text from which you take it. If Numbers 5:20-22 is real, then Adam and Eve, the flood of Noah and the Exodus are real too. And they are real! Nevertheless they do not approve abortion.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I quote them to show the bible is absurd, just as I quote from the Book of Mormon or the Qur'an to show they are absurd.
      - Wolf-Spider
        
        How would you know those events never occured?
        
        Wolf-Spider
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Because we know that mankind descended from other primates, not from Adam and Eve. There is no evidence that the Jews ever wandered the desert for 40 years and the flood of Noah has been debunked on so many levels, it is asinine to claim it ever occurred.
      - RonMar
        
        How exactly do you imagine you know "mankind descended from … primates?" Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory and a much discredited one at that.
        Also as to "40 years," time references in the Bible are not necessarily to be taken literally. They are in many cases more symbolic than literal. All Bible scholars to be taken seriously know that.
      - Esther
        
        " All Bible scholars know that." That makes it true?
      - RonMar
        
        At least try to get the quote right, honey. Misqouting is trashy and deceptive of you.
        
        "True" – to the extent I will accept the word of other Bible scholars, since I am one also, certainly the ones to be taken seriously.
        What's wrong with you? Why have you decided to launch a childish attack on me while you support a self-proclaimed atheist?
      - Esther
        
        I am also a bible scholar in a sense. Yet, there is so much disputation on the subject I find Jeff's approach like a breath of fresh air. I have these massive exegesis and apologetics books from the Reform bookstore that are very interesting, but they exhaust me in their constant rewriting of everything, yet, many here call people like Joseph Smith of the Saints a fraud and worst. I have in my hand a two inch book, THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JOHN by Carson. It is page after page of miro-analysis of meaning, comparing all sources of the possible meaning, seldom with some agreement. I find it so hypocritical that people don't share their doubts with people like in this forum, which must exist else these scholars would never have to write these books and redo the scriptures. I am sorry. I was raised to respect my elders but not to lie to them to make them happy. I think that Jeff's parents were like mine in that we were both not discouraged to explore our own thoughts. That's why you will find — even though I don't fully understand why he takes certain positions — I admire his acumen to defend his. What I find rather hilarious, if you don't mind, is that no one ever shares their doubts with him, even though he is totally up front with people. He may submit to you he is an atheist, but God is watching and knows he is honest. What do you think God thinks of his child Jeff?
      - RonMar
        
        Once again you refuse to answer my questions to you. I do not pretend to know what God thinks about Jeff. I know what God says in the Bible about unbelievers, and much of it is not pretty.
        "In a sense" are the operative words in your claim to be a Bible scholar. You are in over your head, like a person who does not know how to fly trying to solo.
        "Books from the Reform bookstore" are most likely another problem you have brought upon yourself.
        I have shared my doubts here but balanced them with my faith belief. Your beloved Jeff expresses certainty in his unbelief, but he spends way too much time trying to justify it. In that way he reveals his uncertainty and doubt.
        "These scholars … [do not] redo the scriptures." Since you are in over your head and without a pilot you do not get the purpose of the commentaries on the Bible.
        Jeff has said here in this thread that he never believed. That says his parents had little-nothing to do with his thoughts, and he had none to explore with them or them with him. Sticking with the flying analogy he was winging it on his own without guidance or interference from his parents. I call that benign neglect.
        Acumen is defined as mental acuteness, keenness and quickness in understanding and dealing with a situation, shrewdness.
        He has shown none of that other than a bit of shrewdness as in attempted trickery, neither have you.
        He is slow to catch on, more often than not misunderstands. He has incredibly weak communication skills for an educated person if he is one. He contradicts and deludes himself and engages in multiple avoidance behaviors. So do you, all of that. He is dishonest, first with himself. I can see therefore why you admire him so much.
      - Esther
        
        You are out of line Pastor. I am glad I have a lot of work to do and noticed your late efforts to once again to degrade me and others. I likely will not have the time to answer until late tomorrow or the next day, otherwise. First, I had a "pilot" in the study of this topic, a Ph.D. colleague who is 100% Calvinist and a chaplain for the cause in the military. I have frequently attended lectures with him given by very prominent Reformed thinkers who have written the state-of-the-art text books, many of which I own and read. Do you think I should share those details with anyone here on zionica? It would blow them away. Secondly, I do not have a secretary, and this is not my full time job. I also have a degree in philosophy of religion. I see this forum as a place for relaxation in a way, to relieve stress. It is not my vocation but my avocation to participate in zionica, and I rarely see the rigor that you purport I must deliver to you. Sorry, I am in the process of switching jobs in my field of chemistry. Thirdly, you should treat my relation with Mr. Dixon with a respect and dignity, accorded to any human being. I do not know him that well but I will defend his right to use whatever level of knowledge he has on this informal forum, whether he is a novice or not.
        
        It is a bit much to expect more of very hard working people. Also, I am a taxpayer, by the way. I am not a dilettante, so don't think that I am just giving you the light brush-off. You are insulting. And I am serious as a heart attack.
      - Esther
        
        ad hominem attack by the bible scholar … tsk tsk… not nice
      - RonMar
        
        No ad hominem attack, dear. You don't even know what that Latin phrase
        means.
        It's not about you no matter how much you want it always to be so, it's about
        your post. I read your post, thought about it. Gave you my impressions of it.
        Asked you some questions, and absolutely amazing, you refuse to answer them.
        
        You and Jeffie are so alike I want to puke.
      - Esther
        
        flagged a inappropriate
      - Esther
        
        RonMar: You are the source of your own sickness
      - Esther
        
        Spoken like a true follower of Christ. (sarcasm) Keep repeating your lies, Pastor RonMar.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Right, all bible scholars to be taken seriously. In other words, those who agree with you. So, once again someone who claims to believe in the bible throws out a statement that some part of the bible should be read figuratively.
        
        Outside of silly Creationist websites, no one believes that the Theory of Evolution has been discredited. It has more support than any other theory in science.
      - RonMar
        
        No, no, no, sometimes but not always, no and no. Wrong, wrong, wrong,
        sometimes but not always, wrong and wrong.
        You may use your own words as a part of your freedom of speech. I will not allow you, however, to put your words in my mouth.
        To make it perfectly clear to you, if that is ever possible, I meant some Bible scholars are taken seriously, others are not. The latter are Bible scholars in name only, most often self-proclaimed, and lacking any qualifications to be taken seriously. Many of the latter do not even read Ancient or Modern Hebrew, Koine Greek or Aramaic.
        I gave you references to your god – Science. Those references are Surprised by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell about evidence demanding a verdict. Please read them unless your mind is so closed it is not possible for you to do so.
        The theory of evolution is a theory, not a fact.
        Many like you who have become believers have most seriously discredited and done great damage to the theory of evolution. It has no more support than any other theory in science and much less than most theories in science.
        Come on guy. A man has to know his limitations. I started college as a chemistry major, took physics and other science classes in college. I raised pigs and other livestock as a youth and young man. I learned well principles of eugenics as applied to animals, selective breeding, manipulation of environmental factors for better to best results, etc., but I never expected to develop a pig that could fly.
        Speaking of flying I spent my years from age 13-the present relying on
        principles of physics and other sciences as a pilot and flight instructor.
        Please try to keep your posts real and not post blatant untruths and half-truths. Doing so further diminishes your credibility.
        Once again you have avoided my main question to you – "how exactly do you imagine you know 'mankind descended from primates?'" Now that I have looked at that again I ask you also how about womankind? I will grant you might have descended from primates, but I know I did not.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course the Theory of Evolution is a theory. One thing I hear repeatedly from theists is that evolution is a "just a theory". In their mind, this means it is nothing more than a guess. This is what it means in everyday usage, that it means an idea, a guess, something to consider. What many of them do not understand is that the term theory in science means something different than how it is used in everyday conversation.
        
        What is a scientific theory? It means that a falsifiable hypothesis has passed EVERY SINGLE test. It means that predictions by the hypothesis always, in every single case, conform to the theory. It means the hypothesis explains the facts accurately. Only those ideas which pass this test are referred to as theories by scientists. And Evolution has passed every test assigned to it. Let me repeat that. It has passed EVERY test. Does that mean we know everything about Evolution? No, not at all. But there are many accepted theories that we do not fully understand. In fact, we do not FULLY understand any theory. But what is really interesting is that Evolution actually has more evidence than any other theory.
        
        However, no matter how times this is pointed out to them, they retort, it is a theory, not a fact. This is another idea that is misunderstood by the general public. Evolution actually is a fact. However, it is not a law. Theories never become laws. Isn't that a problem for the validity of the idea? Actually, no, There are other theories that are very well known that are completely accepted. It is also somewhat misleading. Because, although Evolution and Gravity are theories, they are also describing things that are facts.
        Gravity is a fact. And gravitational theory explains this fact.
        Disease is a fact. Germ theory explains this fact.
        That life evolves is a fact. The theory of evolution explains this fact.
        
        They also want to argue that theories are incomplete because they are not laws. However, theories can not become laws, because the purpose of a theory is different from a law.
        
        A theory explains a law. The law of gravity states that there is gravity- this is clearly a fact, and is concrete. Einstein's theory of gravity (or whichever theory is currently supported) explains how gravity works. Theories can be replaced if another, better explanation is formed. New theories do not need to be radically different from their predecessors, and can simply be modifications (although if the modification is very slight, it may still be considered the same theory).
        
        So, while you may think you can try to dismiss Evolution for being "just a theory", I appreciate the vote of confidence.
      - RonMar
        
        Responding for the benefit of other readers and posters here, not replying to Jeff because I stopped replying to his nonsense several days ago, he is such a funny guy. An avowed atheist Jeff cannot stop pushing Darwin’s Theory of Evolution because he does not believe in God, the Creator of the universe and all things in it, including poor Jeff.
        I appreciate Jeff’s admission that Darwin’s Theory is a theory, du-uh. That’s why it is called a theory, not a fact.
        I did not say “evolution is ’just a theory.’” Jeff tries to put those words in my mouth. Jeff must do that to continue with the nonsensical argument in his post.
        Jeff really makes me laugh presuming to lecture me about science. Hello! I started college as a chemistry major. As a pilot I have depended on science to keep me alive from an early age all my life so far.
        I do accept the Theory of Evolution as a theory by its dictionary definitions. I do not need to repeat those definitions here. I give most of you credit for knowing the definitions and all of you credit for being able to find and understand them in a dictionary.
        I accept the notion of “survival of the fittest.” That has been replicated enough by recipients of the annual Darwin Awards to be regarded as fact. Jeff is more than a candidate for one of those Awards. As long as Jeff persists in his rejection of God he is not going to survive, certainly not in the sense as those of us who do believe in God and living for eternity in relationship with God.
        I do not accept that creatures, created by God by the way, crawled out of the waters, created by God by the way, and evolved eventually into apes that in turn evolved into human beings. Jeff almost convinces me that he evolved but not very far from some lower life form.
        The basis of the discussion between Jeff and me was that he does not believe in God, but I do and also in part of the Theory of Evolution. Jeff does not accept, even consider thoughtfully anything that he cannot fit into his closed mind notions. Instead Jeff rejects.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The Theory of Evolution does not preclude there being a god. Many Christians accept the theory.
        
        No, you did not say "just" a theory. But that is your implication when you say it is not a fact. It is a fact, it is not a Law.
      - fliteking
        
        I am concerned with how preoccupied you are with abortion Jeffe.
        
        You post about it all the time, read up on the history and techniques & continue the 'denial parade' as scripted by the progressives. . . You are either an abortion provider or in need of some therapy.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not preoccupied with it. I post on the topic when it is being discussed.
      - fliteking
        
        Repeat: You post about it all the time, read up on the history and techniques & continue the 'denial parade' as scripted by the progressives. . . You are either an abortion provider or in need of some therapy.
        
        Anything yet?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I post about it the same amount that others post on the topic, which is when it is being discussed. Anything of value to add?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You need to excuse Jeffie, something wrong there, If only he could find a liberal site to post his nonsense, would be great for him.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Why would you assume I do not post on liberal sites? I enjoy pointing out the flaws of Obama on those sites as well.
      - fliteking
        
        Agreed. JD is Masqurading as a Conservative and defiling all that is good.
        
        His infatuation with being right and badgering a point until it becomes manic shows he likely has deeper issues.
        
        I bet his personal life is indeed a mess as he likely has a similar approach to his personal interactions.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not say I am Conservative I said I am not a liberal. I am more of a Libertarian than a Conservative. However, I am also a realist and know the Libertarian party has no chance of winning. So, I am vote Republican, which at least, is interested in growing the economy.
        
        But I appreciate you showing that you have no idea what you are yammering about yet again.
      - Esther
        
        Sorry fliteking, you just exposed your ignorance about Jeff. He is a U. S. Constitutional Republic conservative, in the Jeffersonian sense, and if you have any scruples you would apologize to him for the gross insult. You have not been "listening." Thanks in advance.
      - fliteking
        
        Seems as though your psoting history tells a differently.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You obviously exercise selective reading skills. You certainly exercise selective logic skills.
      - Esther
        
        Where do you study selective logic? (Jeff is right on target about that, fliteking!)
      - KentPerry
        
        Ha ha ha Jeff do you ever read your posts lol Quote:"According to Chinese folklore Folklore"
        
        What is Folklore Jeff,, Ohhh You know,, that stuff you call the Bible all the time which consists of legends, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, fairy tales, stories, tall tales, etc.
        
        Not the best source this chinese folklore is it jeff.
        
        Real History indeed PffT!
  - fliteking
    
    We got it a long time ago Jeff, you hate Christians and will go to great lengths to make sure the world understands your position.
    
    Don’t you have ~~something~~ anything else you can do?
    
    PS: Liberals routinely use lies and distortions in an effort to build their case. You have done the same here . . . and influenced no one.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      To paraphrase an old and tired expression, love the Christian, hate the delusional mindset that enslaves them.
      - fliteking
        
        Your hatred quickly spills onto the page.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Ah, yes. It takes much hatred to state one should love Christians.
      - RonMar
        
        No one really cares if you love Christians or not. The important thing is that Jesus first and Christians – followers of Jesus the Christ-Messiah-Savior – love you.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Myths do not love anyone. As far as the other nonsense is concerned, you have already shown just how much "love" you offer.
      - RonMar
        
        Oh I offer you much love, the love of the Lord, God, Jesus the Christ, and my own love for you as a lost, unbelieving and hopeless person. If I did not love you I would not have spent so much time dealing with your foolishness, lies first to yourself and your other claptrap.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        What you consider to be love is actually contempt. I have no need or desire of what you consider to be love. The bible also shows what the biblical god provides as evidence of his "love" A universal flood that kills one week old infants.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy
        
        You got it half right there Jeff, keep trying!
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You do not think Christians deserve to be loved?
      - RonMar
        
        Christians are loved by the Lord, God, Jesus the Christ, and that is what matters. Who you love or don't love does not matter at all.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually they are not. Myths do not love anything.
      - RonMar
        
        Christians are not myths and neither is the Lord, God, Jesus the Christ. Your not believing does not make anything or anyone a myth; it only reveals your ignorance going to stupidity and your arrogance in your ignorance.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Christians are not myths. They are people and do exist. However, there is no evidence for mythical deities.
      - Despeville
        
        Hahhahahaahahaha Schizo I can see you have slided even lower. You will really need a strong straightjacket and very soon.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Hey, Humpty. Got anymore fake news stories?
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie it is hard to keep from laughing at you. You are so pathetic, but really funny.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, then we have much in common. For I have been laughing at your comments since you started posting.
  - Guest
    
    Sorry, Jeff. I'm not going to take anything you say seriously, especially when you try to use the word of God as a weapon against us when you don't even believe in its power. Your attempt to attack us is weak, just like all your other attempts. Go find something productive to do with your spare time.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      No, I am sure you prefer to take seriously the ramblings of goat herders.
      - RonMar
        
        "Ramblings of goat herders." Again your attempts at communication from your muddled mind are so poor it is difficult to get to what you are referring – the ramblings as in wanderings, or writings? (That is a rhetorical question.)
        If the former the Hebrews in the Exodus were not herding goats or anything else. According to the Bible they relied on God for food and water.
        If the latter all of the writers of the Bible were not goat herders. As a matter of fact I am having a problem right now recalling any writer to which any part of the Bible is attributed doing goat herding as a primary occupation.
        It is a mystery where you come up with such claptrap.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Given that no one knows who actually wrote the bible, what is amusing is your reliance on it as a source of valid information.
      - RonMar
        
        I will grant that you are clueless about who wrote the Bible, and that
        there are some questions about who wrote certain parts of the Bible. Most
        writers of the Bible, however, again agreed upon by the majority of credible
        Bible scholars, are known and affirmed.
        I know you are amused but not near
        as much as I am by your posts. I encourage you to enjoy your fun and amusement
        while you can.
        The Bible is reliable as a source of valid information
        because it is confirmed by science including archaeology and by other historians
        such as Josephus, hired by the Romans to write a history of the time for
        them.
        Again I refer you to Surprised by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You are pretend to grant anything you like. The reality is that there are no original texts and no one knows for a fact who wrote them. People have opinions about who wrote them, but opinions are not facts.
        
        Josephus? This has been addressed many times. Bart Ehrman does a good job of describing the problem of using that historian.
        
        At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out. (Antiquities 18.3.3)
        
        After citing the passage, Ehrman (60) says:
        
        The problems with this passage should be obvious to anyone with even a casual knowledge of Josephus…. He was thoroughly and ineluctably Jewish and certainly never converted to be a follower of Jesus. But this passage contains comments that only a Christian would make: that Jesus was more than a man, that he was the messiah, and that he arose from the dead in fulfillment of the scriptures. In the judgment of most scholars, there is simply no way Josephus the Jew would or could have written such things. So how did these comments get into his writings?
        
        Ehrman goes on to explain, "When Christian scribes copied the text, they added a few words here and there to make sure that the reader would get the point. This is that Jesus, the superhuman messiah raised from the dead as the scriptures predicted."
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yep, Moses was a goat herder.
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy
    
    If your interpretation is true, Jeff Dixon, and God causes a miscarriage, who are we to oppose God? But let's not think that this sets a precedent by which we as humans are permitted to abort children for reason of infidelity, rape, incest or conception out of wedlock.
    
    It is important to understand that God is offended by those who sin. Yet the conceived child is not guilty for the sin which caused it's conception.
    
    Today we are not under Old Testament law, we are under God's grace. God's grace forgives. Jesus forgives those who rape, commit incest, those who get pregnant while unmarried and those married who get or make pregnant outside their marriages. And God forgives those who abort children, even those who are conceived by married couples! But that does not excuse sin, it does not give us permission to sin. God's grace includes the mercy of forgiveness that we might be saved from the consequence of our sins, and that consequence is hell and the lake of fire.
    
    If God causes a miscarriage, in some cases it might be an act of mercy whereby the child goes to be with the Lord and the mother and father are spared the difficulties they otherwise would face. But God does not sin in doing this. We sin when we take life in our own hands and end it. God eventually ends every life . God OWNS every life.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Of course you would be under OT laws, if they actually were given by god. Jesus, himself, stated he was not here to get rid of the OT laws.
      
      “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Matt. 5:17-19
      
      He goes on to say “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Mt.5:17-19
  - cyndlou
    
    wow -you're at it again – footnotes at the bottom of scripture were written by MEN – the Bible was not despite what you have said in the past – read John 1:1 before you even think about arguing it – abortion is murder and i'm with John Adams on this – how do you translate that or any other scripture in the Bible to abortion – that would mean God admitted to making a mistake and He has and never will make a mistake – for someone who quotes the Word of God so much, you obviously have zero reading comprehension.
    - Esther
      
      Jeff is saying that God AS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE made a mistake. He sees the errors in the bible and reports them. He is saying whoever wrote the bible made a mistake… therefore, the BIBLICAL god does not exist. He has made it clear repeatedly that he would welcome REASONABLE evidence that God exists, though he cannot ignore the contradictions in the bible. See the difference? If not, ask him.
      - cyndlou
        
        and I say the same to you – GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES – I don't need any help in understanding that Jeff is lost – you are not any help in helping him get found.
      - Esther
        
        You did not read what I said.
      - cyndlou
        
        Sorry – I suppose I just misinterpreted your meaning
      - Esther
        
        I noticed Jeff has to defend that particular point often.
      - Esther
        
        I have seen Jeff and others discuss contradictions in the bible. How does this affect my little Sunday school primary class? Not at all. Our lessons are designed by the Primary presidency and usually the lessons are comprised of simple very commonly well-known tales of Jesus, often a parable of good works easily understood by the children, with an art project. I leave the exegesis for seminary lessons that I infrequently attend. The interpretation of scripture is ongoing by students and their mentors, so the answer to your question: evidently yes, because there are constantly availabe new books published on the subject.
      - cyndlou
        
        "I say these things because people do not
        think through the logic of the bible stories. I do not think there is a god to
        make mistakes. But the people who made up the bible verses made huge mistakes" this is a quote from Jeff's post – he does not even believe in God – we, as true children of God are supposed to be able to make discernment between the saved and the lost – you seem to agree with Jeff just a little too much, especially for someone who is supposed to be leading our children to Christ. Not judging you, just questioning your comments..
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course the biblical god makes mistakes. The entire bible is one story after another of god making mistakes.
        
        Genesis 6:6-7
        "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
        
        Now, what does repent mean?
        
        re·pent/riˈpent/
        
        Verb:Feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.
        
        View or think of (an action or omission) with deep regret or remorse.
        
        One does not view an action which they think is the correct of action with regret. That is what people do when they know they made a mistake.
      - cyndlou
        
        that is not God making a mistake – that is man ignoring God – you know = like you do – man does have a responsiblitly in all of this – God gave us life and look at what we do with it – twist His Word to make our life simple and confortable – Jeff you should really stop acting the fool.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course it is god that made the mistake. God is the one repenting in the story.
      - Esther
        
        You mean the biblical god is making mistakes… but that only means it is the men who write about god who are making the mistakes. You don't know whether God exists.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am talking about how the story describes god.
      - Esther
        
        I understand. … how people wrote about god in the bible, right?
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes
      - RonMar
        
        Jeff please tell us in six words or less what the Bible is about from cover to cover. If you must use a dozen words or a few more. If you want to go on and tell us what the Bible means to you, how it plays in your personal life.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Mans attempt to explain the unknown. The bible does not play a part in my personal life.
      - RonMar
        
        Wrong, the Bible is an obsession with you every day, all day and night. You post about it here way more than anyone else.
        Just so you know for any possible future reference, the Bible is a story about the battle between good and evil. From cover to cover in six words or less: the battle between good and evil.
        Sadly for you, you are on the losing side of that battle right now, but there is hope for you until you die.
        "Mans (sic) attempt to explain the unknown" is a typical answer of an atheistic faith believer.
        As I keep telling you much of the Bible is known and proven within the Bible and from extra-Biblical sources. Again I refer you to Surprised by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I could not care less about the bible. However, Christians believe it is the word of god. Therefore, I show them just how wrong they are.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        RonMar hit the nail on the head there Jeffrey–the Bible is an obsession with you every day–in fact all day and night. Sad in fact. You will never prove or show any Christian to be wrong–but you are wasting your time away–and you cannot ever get any of it back! It is hilarious to watch you and Esther–doing the same thing.
      - Esther
        
        Hi JoeAnzilotti
      - RonMar
        
        The Bible plays a huge part in your personal life. You are obsessed with it every day, day and night. You post about it more here than anyone else.
        Just so you know for any possible future use, in six words or less what the Bible is about from cover to cover is: the battle between good and evil.
        You are on the wrong side of that battle right now, but there is hope for you until you die.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually pseudo-Christians have become a large part because I have decided to make them a large part. For most of my life I left Christians alone because it did not seem important to engage them. But I have realized I was wrong. As long as people allow the delusional to be in charge or dictate the debate, our society will never improve. Therefore, I now engage them.
      - cyndlou
        
        you know – you are one twisted soul – I would not doubt that you say the things you say just to get people ticked – so do you think God made a mistake in creating you – despite your garbage that you spew in your posts – I say no – it's you that chooses to use your brain to dishonor God instead of glorifying Him – and that is your mistake not His. and that is what it is for all time – we make the mistakes NOT HIM.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I say these things because people do not think through the logic of the bible stories. I do not think there is a god to make mistakes. But the people who made up the bible verses made huge mistakes.
      - Wordman
        
        And you are very skilled at taking advantage of such people, Jeff. But some of us DO think through the things that the Bible says, and we do so very consistently, and we believe.
      - Esther
        
        I think it is called sharing important information. You are wrong to say that Jeff is taking advantage of people. What he believes is as important to him as what you believe is to you. And he feels it is important that people know the options. Did you know there are over 400 translations of the bible?! Some commenters here on this page have discussed the errors versus which ones they think are correct. So I think as thinking adults we should allow Jeff his opinions to be expressed. It does clarify to hear these things discussed. And what he believes is not trivial as you suggest. He does also think through the things he quotes from the bible. He knows the scriptures very well. Ask him about his personal background, he has told us before.
      - RonMar
        
        He does not know the Bible at all, and he misuses it with great regularity. No one is trying to keep him from expressing his opinions. He clarifies nothing, only muddles it.
        He is not capable of thinking through anything he quotes from the Bible, not with his so obvious biases.
        If you know his personal background please share it. I have never seen him post one word about it, not even when I have asked him to do so. Furthermore he offers no evidence of anything. He only keeps making assertions about his faith belief and even denies it is a faith belief, which it clearly is.
      - Esther
        
        Engage him in a real debate and you will see a deeper side of him. All you have seen are challenges that he has set to those issues he cannot support. Jeff challenges everyone. After all he is a unique, true American, belonging to no "club", one in over 300,000,000 Americans who is fully awake.
      - RonMar
        
        I have engaged him in real debate. I see him clearly. He is a self-proclaimed atheist, weak in argumentation, supports stuff totally unacceptable to me, is not at all unique, belongs to a certain club and has not shown any evidence of being awake at all.
        "true American" – arouses my curiosity about what you define as a true American and what evidence you can present that he has ever done anything to show he is a true American.
        Your answers please. No more of your assertions without evidence. I am on the verge of ignoring you as unworthy of my time and effort.
      - Esther
        
        You do not strike me as a person working with all the apportioned gray cells either, but I won't call you names as you seem to be practiced, as though it is a fine teaching technique, which it is not.
        
        Here is your answer as to the qualifications of Jeffrey if you can bring youself to stomach some real truth: http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ scan down the right sidebar. You can discuss Jeffrey's Jeffersonian attributes with him. I find you less than a worthy adversary, so the feeling is mutual.
      - RonMar
        
        You were on the verge of my ignoring you. You went past it with your post to which I am now responding – the last one from you to which I will ever reply to you. I may post about you for the benefit of other readers and posters here, but not to you, never again. Try to make your life a good one. Goodby and good luck.
      - Esther
        
        Luck? LOL How pagan of you. Tell your kewpie doll Evermyrtle hi for me.
        
        "Gotcha"~Sarah Palin
      - Esther
        
        Tell whomever in your flock sent you, we'll see them later. Remember it is not about you RonMar, it is about other people becoming your bondslave. (sarcasm) Bye Bye, Your new friend, Esther
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Just how am I "taking advantage" of people when I make comments?
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie you have no logic in your muddled mind to think through anything logically. It is you who has made mistakes – huge ones – and you will be judged for making them and persisting in them.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Myths do not judge anyone, Ronnie.
      - RonMar
        
        Oops, Jeffie, you slipped there buddy. I did not say who would judge you. You made an assumption as you do so often you live your life on false assumptions and lies you tell yourself first.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Stop with the nonsense. You believe that god will judge people. Attempting to pretend that someone else will actually be the judge is disingenuous. Is lying part of your "relationship" with Jesus?
      - RonMar
        
        Excellent again cyndlou.
      - RonMar
        
        No, Jeffie, it is not. As I said you don't get anything, not just it, but anything.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        lol. Well, you do have the ego for a Christian.
      - RonMar
        
        LOL, yes in one school of psychology I have an ego, id and superego. You seem to be seriously lacking in at least one of those but enjoying an overabundance in another.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        As I said, you do have the ego for a Christian.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        God is the only one in the story who could be repenting. It is not the people that he about to kill The bible says the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. It is not Noah who was a just man and perfect in his generations. That leaves god. And the verse states that god repented.
        
        Genesis 6:6-7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
      - RonMar
        
        Jeffie, I am not going to entertain any more of your interpretations of the Bible. The Bible is God's Holy Word. You do not believe in God. Drop it, lad. The Bible is not your thing.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, I understand, You are only capable of impressing people who believe in the same myths as you. Tough. You are of the opinion that you are overwhelming to people who do not know the bible as well as you. I am here to say you are wrong. I am here to say I laugh at your superior knowledge of the bible. Either argue your position or whimper off.
      - RonMar
        
        Excellent cyndlou.
      - RonMar
        
        There you go again venturing into a book about which you know little-nothing, a book inspired by a God you don't believe in, and relying on a modern dictionary definition of a modern word not one of the words of the ancient languages of the Bible. Sheesh! You really don't get anything, not just it, but anything.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Do Atheists know what is in the bible?
        Atheists know more about religion than any other group.
        
        A new survey of American religious knowledge, released by the Pew Forum, which demonstrate that atheists and agnostics know more about religion than the religious do. The only religious groups comparable to atheists in general religious knowledge are Jews and Mormons. Atheists even know more about Christianity than American Christians.
        
        Atheists and agnostics, like Jews, are much more highly educated than the general American public, and the survey found a strong correlation between level of education and religious knowledge (among the religious as well as the nonreligious).
        
        Now, this does not mean we are right on our views. However, it does show that we are basing our views on researched information, not simply dismissing faith out of hand.
        
        http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/spirited_atheist/2010/10/atheists_know_more_about_religion_than_the_religious.html
      - RonMar
        
        You missed my point and veered off in another direction as usual for you. Some atheists may know the Bible and about religions, but none understand it.
        "However, it does show that we are basing our views on researched information, not simply dismissing faith out of hand." – Hold on hoss. In another of your posts you said you never believed, and you have not yet indicated that you will dare read – research – Saved by Faith and the works of Josh McDowell. So again you contradict yourself and fail in your confusion and inability to keep your stories straight.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not miss your point or veer off into another direction. You claimed I ventured into a book I know nothing about. I showed you that Atheists know more about the bible than Christians. Your opinion that we do not understand it is simply nonsense.
      - Esther
        
        He is NOT saying that God makes mistakes… He is saying that the people who write about God are making mistakes …
      - cyndlou
        
        "The entire bible is one story after another of god making mistakes." this is a quote from Jeff's post
      - Esther
        
        Sounds like him. But just remember he is not talking about God which he does not know if He exists.. Jeff is talking about mistakes made by people who wrote the bible… so he is referring to the biblical god.
      - cyndlou
        
        do yourself a favor don't buy in and/or support his rhetoric – the biblical god? There is only one God – the only credit I give to him is that man has developed over 450 "versions" of the Bible – that in itself is a flat out sin – it says so in Revelation 22:18-19. There is only one truth and Jeff quotes from the NIV which is not an authentic translation of the original scrolls.
      - Esther
        
        When men write, men make mistakes… there are tons of books written to try and explain the very mistakes… most people don't read those kinds of books but you can go to a Reform Seminary bookstore and get one. It is all they talk about: What is the meaning of a word and its placement in the sentence and could it have been a mistake… that is what your minister does when he goes to seminary… he discusses the different problems in the interpretation. Jeff is just pointing out the ones of concern to him. Sorry, it is the rhetoric of ministers everywhere as well… I know a lot of them and have attended their classes. Ask your minister.
      - RonMar
        
        I am curious about what is "an authentic translation of the original scrolls" for you, how do you know, why do you believe it is.
      - cyndlou
        
        right now, the closest one I can find is the Geneva Bible – it was translated into english directly from the scrolls – as was the King James "version" – until – once his scholars translated the language, he read that his position as king was vulnerable so he changed a few things – which, by the way, is the kind of behavior by King James that we are even here in America. He demanded control even over peoples faith and how they worshipped God.
      - RonMar
        
        "The Geneva Bible – it was translated into english directly from the scrolls." – Okay, thanks, but how then do you account for this: Like most English translations of the time, the Geneva Bible was translated from scholarly editions of the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures that comprise the Christian Old Testament. The English rendering was substantially based on the earlier translations by William Tyndale and Myles Coverdale (more than 80 percent of the language in the Genevan Bible is from Tyndale). However, the Geneva Bible was the first English version in which all of the Old Testament was translated directly from the Hebrew (cf. Coverdale Bible, Matthew Bible).
        And this: The task of translation [of the King James Bible] was undertaken by 47 scholars …The scholars worked in six committees, two based in each of the University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge, and Westminster.
        It does not seem possible to me that the dispersed committees used original scrolls. I am not picking at you, but I have become aware recently there are some among us who accept none but the KJV as the only true, inerrant Bible. We did not spend any time on that when I was in Seminary. As a matter of fact I used routinely 40 or more Bible translations, including the KJV, cross-comparing them, and Bibles in several languages other than English for Bible study and preparation of required papers in those classes.
        I would not use any of the more recent translations done for specific purposes such as avoiding gender-specific terms. I find those cumbersome and most unnecessary. It doesn't matter to me if God was/is a man or woman. I never have and don't now or in any future time intend to have sexual relations with God. :) I doubt God would find me a suitable partner for such a purpose :).
        My closing question is: Are you in one of the groups that reject all Bibles but the Geneva or KJV? I find those groups an interesting and puzzling phenomena.
      - cyndlou
        
        wow – would I love to pick your brain – I am limited on my resources and time to really dig – and i do know of the Tyndale Bible but he died before he could complete the Old Testement correct? – so when you learn that the Geneva and KJV were taken from the original scrolls, again, man has mislead? I don't reject the other translations, I have probably close to ten of them in my posession but i find the Geneva the gives the Holy Spirit the most power – I don't know, maybe a do reject them, because i have found the power has been taken out of them, the meaning changed – two scriptures that I feel the most obvious in this is Malaci 3:8 and I Corinthians 10:13. Something else I would be interested to find out is the course of events of the families of the men and/or women that have gone in and changed the scriptures. Revelations 22:18 & 19 would be enough for me to leave it alone.
      - cyndlou
        
        there are over 450 "translations" of the Bible – I don't understand how you can speak one truth over 450 ways. I believe it is exactly why God had Revelation 22:18-19 written in His Word. Men keep trying to make it easy to understand the Bible thinking that they are making it easier to become a Christian – first of all, being a Christian is not easy – it's probably the most difficult and challenging decision a person will make for themselves. 2nd- if people write the Bible to make it easy to understand, you not only remove the need for the Holy Spirit to provide the wisdom, you limit the wisdom that He has for us to gain.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No one would be able to know what an authentic translation is since there are no original scrolls to compare them to.
      - cyndlou
        
        i wasn't talking to you so go away.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Sorry, you have no control or authority on this site.
      - cyndlou
        
        BUT ATLAST I HAVE A BRAIN – GO FIND A YELLOW BRICK ROAD AND MAYBE YOU'LL FIND YOURS AT THE END OF IT.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        At last? How long were you without one?
      - cyndlou
        
        that's the best you've got – thanks for proving my point
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        You can delete your comment, but you said at last I have a brain (referring to yourself) . So, how long did you exist without one?
      - Esther
        
        It posted under your conversation with her on Disqus under Context button:
        BUT ATLAST I HAVE A BRAIN – GO FIND A YELLOW BRICK ROAD AND MAYBE YOU'LL FIND YOURS AT THE END OF IT.~ Cyndlou
        
        Now I am in surely trouble… it came up under my disqus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      The entire bible was written by men. All religious texts are written by men.
      - cyndlou
        
        You obviously can't handle being wrong so i'll put John 1:1 in your face myself – In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I can handle being wrong just fine. It is the Christians who cannot accept that their beliefs might be wrong. Which is why all you have is a reliance on silly bible verses.
      - RonMar
        
        You cannot handle being wrong. The evidence is you fight too hard trying to prove first to yourself that you are right in your faith belief. I am a Christian, and accept that I may be wrong. I have faith though that I am right. That faith is based on years of intense study of contemporary religions and faith belief like yours that there is no God – doubt there is a God. I have hope based on my faith of eternal life with God. You have no hope.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I can handle being wrong just fine. I was wrong about the symbol of Kohen Hands being from Star Trek. But to claim that you are willing to accept you are wrong is laughable. You say you have hope of eternal life. But hope is not proof of anything. It is actually what someone has when there is nothing to support a view.
      - RonMar
        
        Jeff you are wrong again. Hope is what people have when they have faith in themselves, others and most importantly a greater power.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        So, you are saying your belief is faith in yourself? What part of your religion says that faith in yourself has any importance?
      - Esther
        
        Then you obviously don't know what it is like to be a good parent.
      - RonMar
        
        Esther are you okay? Your comment has nothing to do with what Jeff and I
        were talking about – faith and hope.
        An atheist faith believer cannot be a good parent modeling no hope –
        hopelessness for their child or children.
        I have in fact been a good parent and have two fine, highly successful sons
        and two grandchildren, all four full of hope for their futures to show for the
        quality of my parenting.
        Maybe you will be better off dropping out of the conversation that you
        butted into between Jeff and me. The more comments you make the goofier you are
        sounding.
      - Esther
        
        Take your meds, Grandpoppa… trying to install sharia here, are ya' … kinda like girls being degraded …
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        it is nonsense to claim that an atheist parent cannot be a good role model. My kids are both excellent students and good athletes. They watched me obtain a Masters Degree while working full time. They watched me read in my spare time instead of watching TV. They saw me exercise 4-5 times a week. I did not worry about telling them to be full of hope. I taught them to be prepared to handle the challenges of life. I taught them to persevere and overcome.
      - RonMar
        
        Again not replying to Jeff but rather responding for the benefit of others, poor Jeffie tries and fights so hard, but fails every time he posts. He does not realize others – good parents – have done all he claims and more, like sharing with their children a belief in God and hope for eternal life in relationship with God.
        I feel so sorry for these poor, hopeless atheists and their children.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I never said a theist cannot be a good parent. I said your assertion that an atheist cannot be one is wrong. However, teaching your children to believe in myths does them no good.
      - RonMar
        
        Again not replying to Jeffie but rather posting for the benefit of other readers
        and posters here, Jeffie pretends I do not know what he said.
        Further he says, trying to claim an atheist can be a good parent, "teaching your children to believe in myths does them no good." There is little doubt, however, that he taught his child or children the myths of evolution.
        I wonder what his child or children think about their daddy believing he is evolved from something that crawled out of water, then eventually evolved into an ape and later a human being.
        I believe this is enough with Jeffie. I'll just start deleting the site management e-mail notices of his endless posts to me. He is struggling like a gasping fish swimming upstream or an ape swinging through trees and flinging feces at practically all other posters here.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        It is pretty obvious you do not know what I said. But do whatever you like. I am not afraid of a debate like some people.
      - Esther
        
        Don't forget YOUR tendency to teach by intimidation, RonMar, a favored Satanic tactic.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Faith is also something people cling to when there is nothing to support their view. Just because one hopes there is a higher power does not mean there is actually a higher power.
      - RonMar
        
        Again not replying to Jeffie but rather posting for the benefit of other readers and posters here. Jeffie is so in the grip of his faith belief that there is no God that he cannot stop arguing and trying to convince, first himself, then others. He makes up his own definitions and twists the definitions that are present in all good dictionaries.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course i accept the theory of evolution and do not accept the idea of a god. There is evidence for evolution. There is no evidence for a god.
      - RonMar
        
        Again not replying to Jeffie but rather posting for the benefit of other readers
        and posters here. I said, "There is much to support the views of
        believers in God, but Jeffie rejects all of it," and sure enough he did. He is so boringly predictable.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, there is not evidence to support the views of believers. That is why they use faith as a reason to believe. If there was concrete evidence, they would refer to it.
        
        And, btw, no one believes your oh so clever ruse of not responding to me. The only boring one here is you.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff, please respond to http://zionica.com/2012/10/26/why-liberals-are-misreading-mourdock/#comment-700293667 I don't want to start WWIII. Thanks.
      - RonMar
        
        Yes, you are right, men inspired by God.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        No, men inspired to create an idea that they hoped others would believe came from a god.
      - RonMar
        
        Hahahahaha. Wow! You are so wrong again. Now you are saying many men who did not even live at the same time, most of them not even knowing each other conspired to create a God and belief in that God. Sorry, pal, but God is the creator.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am saying that men created a storyline that others expanded.
  - Despeville
    
    Another scary look into a mind of an irrational heathen and his collection of pathetic excuses…
    - Esther
      
      Despe, if you have ever published, please give us the link. (Don't you think Jeff makes your life interesting?)
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        His life becomes more interesting when he is buried in a bottle of his favorite wine.
      - RonMar
        
        You calling another a drunk, now that really is funny.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        He has freely admitted to enjoying wine. Just another topic on which you have complete ignorance.
      - RonMar
        
        You have freely admitted to being an atheist. I prefer a man who enjoys a bit of wine over an atheists. As to ignorance, yours goes to stupidity and is exceeded only by your arrogance.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I have freely expressed that point. I am sure you enjoy anyone who agrees with you over anyone else.
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Humpty, it is your book of fables. If you find them scary, don't complain to me.
      - RonMar
        
        Despe was not referring to the Bible as scary but rather to your mind.
  - KentPerry
    
    There are no thighs in the belly? There are if she has a Baby in there Hoss. But you go on, I just got here and am reading your posts now. Interesting take you have God as the abortionist Jeff. Just so we are clear about this,, are you suggesting God did the abortion here? Of course the reason I ask is because you have made it so clear this God in the Bible you have chosen to reference, is the same one you have demanded doesn't even exist. So why on earth would you fear he is the abortionist in this case? Is it because it is such an absurd idea such a ridiculous piece on double standards and hypocrisy, that we would suddenly awaken in our stupor and announce OMG! What was I thinking, if God did this then it only follows God can't exist! Is that what you're getting at ?
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      It depends on how developed the fetus is hoss. but even if the fetus is that developed, the verse is describing the woman and not the fetus in the woman.
      
      Yes, I am not only suggesting, I am stating that god did the abortion. I make the comment not because I believe in the god, but because I want to point out the delusion of believing in that god concept.
      - KentPerry
        
        How does this help with that delusion concept Jeff when you cherry pick your own folklore and you are so notorious in discontextualizing q
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I am sure you will never be able to understand that.
  - Evermyrtle
    
    I can't but wonder why jeffie has hunted all of the negative scriptures about women and post but never any about men. Now, I know the Bible and I know there are negative scriptures about men in there. Why does he not ever post any of them. He says he loves women so there must be a point somewhere!!
    
    And imagine him trying to quote the WORD OF GOD and lies about HIS WORD. I sure would hate to be in his place. EVIL, EVIL, EVIL
    - Jeff Dixon
      
      Then you are not looking very hard at what I post.
John Adams

Those who hate God, hate life are those who are "misunderstanding" Mr. Mourdock. They don't want any clamps put on their wickedness.
Mark Brickey

WHY would a "Christian" blog quote New Republic?!?!? Unless you're trying to get US to post!

Murdock is a solid, Christian Conservative man with a wonderful family. He expressed solid moral values with a strong backbone – no wishy-washy mumbo jumbo. "It" obviously refers back to the active noun in the previous sentience not the predicate nominative.

Now, trying not to use the legal term "murder", what do any sane group of civilized people call the killing of millions of innocent humans (yes, human beings from just short time after conception)? If this were happening ANYWHERE but within the womb of certain women, it would be called a horrible inexcusable crime – especially at the hands of DOCTORS?!?!

Now, going into the argument of rape & other evil & crimes against mankind. In today's pessimistic, hedonist worldview, where anything can be twisted around & excuses given for just about anything. Pain & suffering are major part of humanness. As a Biblical Christian (or Judeo/Christian since the Jewish are biblical too) I believe this is termed "sin". It is a daily part of being human. Sin to us, against us, our own sin, etc.

Obviously, some sin is deeper, darker than others. Some sin is violent & involves more than the perpetrator. Rape, of course, is such. Rape is predatory, evil. Any rapist should be taken out of society to the fullest extent of the law.

BUT… if a woman suffers the humility & evil of a rape, is it right, then, to kill an innocent person because of this? There are SO MANY stories out there where the woman & child end up being "special", where the baby was given over to adoptive parents, etc. etc. yet we hear nothing about these in the MSM. I know of 1 situation this way, & this "problem" has grown into a fine young man, brilliant, musically talented – a joy to his mother & pretty much to anyone he comes in contact with. Think of all the talent, all the authors, musicians, artists, leaders who have been snuffed out?!?!?
Bighoss

Mourdock likely did not mean WHAT HE SAID, but he SAID IT nonetheless. Right wingnuts who jump on every little inadvertent thing said by the President or other Democrats are getting a taste of their own stuff here, since one of their own has blithered forth a statement that, when taken literally, tags God Himself as condoning rape. Maybe both sides need to cut a little slack and accept6 post-blithering explanations of those who "mis-speak".
- John Adams
  
  I'm sure he DID mean what he said, and I totally agree with him.
- Jeff Dixon
  
  Hey Bighoss, do you have any concerns over how Obama handled the Benghazi fisaco?
  - Vladimir
    
    Yes, Bighoss, all of us right wing nuts want to see you spin this one for your Honorable B.H. Obama, president of these here United States.
    - Despeville
      
      How about your "Bishop" naming himself as a "pastor" in one of the debates? He does not mind what it entails? I.e. "hirling of satan"? :0) Anything goes for a Mormon or what?
      - Esther
        
        Jump in the lake Despe.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        I will take that over Obama listening to 20 years to a preacher who shouts g-d America and lies that he never knew that side of the preacher before. If Romney wants to call himself a bishop, it will not result in American ambassadors getting killed or a president who spins a cover story about why the violence broke out on the anniversary of 9/11.
      - Esther
        
        Despe, you so fit the role set for you by Calvin.
  - Esther
    
    I want to hear Bighoss justify that one.
- Esther
  
  re: Benghazi: We (four people) await your response over here, little pony …
1coachretired1

The point is that even the child conceived by rape is innocent and does not deserve to painfully dismembered and killed!
don

The typical leftist solution is always to punish the innocent, who had nothing to do with the crime.It's what leftists do;thats what make them leftists.
Steve03

For most of the "victims" of abortion, it’s the best thing that could happen to them.
Where can those innocent babies be but in Jesus’ arms?
But if they were carried to term, nearly all would be put up for adoption or raised by parents or single mothers who never wanted them in the first place and whose morals, character, and financial stability would appear to leave much to be desired. And as the child is raised, so shall the adult be (Proverbs 22:6).
Given that only about 30% of Americans even claim to be born-again Christians, 70% of the babies will be raised in non-Christian homes. While a few of the 70% may indeed be saved, most will grow old and die without ever accepting Jesus at their personal Savior. So for every million babies you save from abortion, something like 650,000 more souls end up in Hell. But you meant well, so it’s not your fault.
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
  
  "Unless you are born from above of water and Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Presuming the salvation of these unbaptized babies is dangerous, for you are taking it upon yourself to judge them. True, it is plainly obvious that they have committed no sins themselves, and therefore the fires of Hell cannot harm them, but to presume that they have access to the beatific vision of God is both wrong and dangerous. Are these babies martyrs, that they have been baptized in their own blood rather than in water? Perhaps, God will judge that, but to presume it is scandalous. Tell me, what does an abortionist, a post-abortive woman, or an accomplice thereof hear when you say that abortion was doing those children a favor? It hardens their hearts!
fort9erdon

You finally got it right. Reread the very last sentence. THAT is the total argument and story in a nutshell! "all abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances in which a pregnancy came about."
END OF STORY AND ARGUMENT!
fliteking

"Why Liberals are Misreading Mourdock"

Liberals are not misreading the situation, instead they prefer to remain ignorant of murder.
http://profile.yahoo.com/IJTG72YYIYLA5C7MVTJSNETWQI Linda S

God gave us free agency. It is up to us to decide for ourselves. We are failing miserably at this time.
I think a baby can be loved under most conditions. If it can't than, thousands of people not fortunate to become pregnant will adopt a child. It's life, once conceived, isn't yours to wipe out.
http://www.facebook.com/people/David-B-Severy/557985964 David B Severy

In the eyes of unbelievers, they can do no wrong and believers can do no right. In the eyes of believers, liberals can do little right and do much wrong. In the eyes of God, only Jesus did it all right, and EVERYONE ELSE needs His forgiveness for the many, many, many things they did wrong.
Esteban Cafe

"Why Liberals are Misreading Mourdock" ?
Because they want to. They "make the man an offender for a word." They "dig a pit for their neighbor" Msr Mourdock and they make black white and white black." Speaking of black/white, strange that your president is both…maybe that explains his upside down view of right and wrong ?
- Esther
  
  Our president was raised by "typical white women" (he said)
Bighoss

Mourdock did not mean to say what he said in the way in which he said it, but he did say what he said, and when his remarks are taken literally and grammatically, they are clearly affirming that God blesses and approves the production of a pregnancy through the agency of rape. Thus, he has to go to some length to explain what he really meant to say.

The same scenario plays out whenever any politician of either party "misspeaks" him/herself. That is why there are so many wing nuts looking for any little mis-statement by the President and then trumpeting it as "proving" something that it does not prove, all the while ignoring any clarifications provided by the President or others. Both parties are guilty of this kind of shabby stuff and both of them should stop it.