Relations Break Down Between Jewish & Protestant Groups

Major Jewish groups have indignantly cancelled a scheduled interfaith dialogue after Mainline Protestant officials urged Congress to reconsider U.S. military aid to Israel. The October 5 Protestant letter complained of “widespread Israeli human rights violations against the Palestinians, including killing of civilians, home demolitions and forced displacement, and restrictions on Palestinian movement.” The National Council of Churches, Evangelical Lutheran, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Methodist and United Church of Christ officials (Episcopalians were notably absent) asked Congress to investigate Israeli abuses before granting further aid. They faulted U.S. military help for “sustaining the conflict and undermining the long-term security interests of both Israelis and Palestinians.” The Protestant letter did not mention U.S. aid to the Palestinian Authority or to Arab regimes.

“The participation of these leaders in yet another one-sided anti-Israel campaign cannot be viewed apart from the vicious anti-Zionism that has gone virtually unchecked in several of these denominations,” pointedly explained Jewish Council of Public Affairs President Rabbi Steve Gutow. Having “squandered our trust,” he said these churches’ officials have shown a “stony silence to the use of anti-Judaism and relentless attacks on the Jewish state, often from within their own ranks,” which “speaks loudly to their failure to stand up and speak the whole truth about what is occurring in the Middle East.”

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Winston

I was in recent communication with a man who is supposedly the point man for a Pastor in Montana where we'd been considering relocating to due to its strong conservative growth area. But when I inquired about the tenets of beliefs of their church he mentioned being against Zionists because they were "fake Jews". After thinking about it, I wrote back and told him that if the church beliefs were anti-Zionist and Cessationists, then we immediately stopped further consideration to relocate there. There's way too many pastors and weak church leaders who are not reading their Bible, especially Genesis 12:3, and limiting what God's Word tells us about supporting Israel. And, if church pastors and leaders want to restrict the work of the Holy Spirit (Cessationists) we want no part of that church.
- Evermyrtle
  
  We find as time goes on the signs for the end days are more prominent and more often almost every day.
  
  Isaiah 29: 7
  
  And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel (Jerusalem), even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
  
  Micah 4:11-12
  
  11.. Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion
  
  12. But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they HIS counsel: for HE shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor
  
  Zech. 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
  
  Zech 12: 8-9
  
  8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of Davida shall be as GOD, as the angel of the LORD before them.
  
  9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
  - GramE
    
    I always look forward to your comments – you say it better than I can!
    - Evermyrtle
      
      Thanks. I do try but I mess up a lot, too. GOD Bless You!!
Wordmahn

The Protestant organizations mentioned in the article are not really evangelical and, frankly, are hardly Christian at all. They are strongly left-leaning, twist-the-Bible-to-promote-humanist-goals, Jimmy Carter types. The NCC is a bad joke whose member congragations have been steadily shrinking away. The so-called Evangelical Lutherans, the PCA, and the United Methodists are ignoring their Bibles by, among other things, ordaining open homosexuals and trying to marry homosexual couples. Their congragations are also disappearing which is what we would hope and expect of regligious organizations who spit in the face of God and abandon the central teachings of their own founders.
- Winston
  
  When I moved back to my "Bible Belt" hometown in Kentucky several years ago to be near my aging parents for a while, I attended my old home church (Episcopal) from my youth, and found it ultra-liberal (far removed from the church of my youth) with a femal pastor, then attended a variety of churches to get a flavor what what "Christian" means there. Churches I attended were: conservative independent evangelical, Presbyterian, two large Baptist churches, etc.. One job I took as a executive backfill role (the executive had left abruptly for "health reasons") the President and two vice presidents were "Christian" so I asked them various questions to see what their own churches beliefs and practices were. One day I caught the President looking at pictures of naked women on his computer (he abruptly shut it off) and he was a youth leader at his church, and one of the VP's was the teen group leader at his Baptist church so I asked him what he taught the young people from the Bible; he said they didn't teach from the Bible or even read the Bible with the teens. I found this amazing, but not unbelieveable because the so-called "social gospel" is followed in many organized churches across America today in the post-modernist churches…and these churches have pastors who are Cessationists…so there is no leading by the Holy Spirit and the churches are spiritually dead.
  - Wordmahn
    
    Yes, Winston. It is tragic. Such churches are functionally apostate. The best advice we can give to people in such churches is to RUN, not walk, to the nearest faithful Bible church regardless of the name over the door.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
  
  the only denomination that has ordained an open homosexual is still the Episcopal church. these denominations open homosexual minister came out after being ordained. what really happened in these churches is they got away from their roots. the more liberal congregations in these denominations will soon be gone and these will be soon the most conservative denominations in the protestant movement.
  - Wordmahn
    
    I'm not up on all the latest but I know that several denominations are moving that direction. PCUSA, I believe, has all but approved putting open homosexuals in their pupits. Several others have fallen or are on the verge of going over this cliff. It appears to be just a matter of time and not much of it. Unless they change directions far and fast, the faithful need to flee these organizations. Ichabod is clearly written over their doors.
- Bighoss
  
  The article did not mention the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America). It cited the Presbyterian Church (USA), the more liberal body. Getcha Presbyterians straight. Then start
  working on all the denominations that twist scripture to justify such non-Biblical practices as infant baptism, one-man pastorates, and the "sinner's prayer" concept of salvation.
  - Wordmahn
    
    You are so right. I meant to write that PCUSA was one of the bad dogs. While not perfect, the PCA is generally a pretty fair outfit. Your list doesn't hit my hot buttons though. Some of those things are problems, but as bad as things are I think we can find bigger fish to fry.
John Adams

Any individual or organization that takes a stand against Israel is placing them on the wrong side of God. God will curse those who curse Israel.
- http://www.missiontoisrael.org/ Ted R. Weiland
  
  I keep hearing that if we don't bless the modern State of Israel (which America has been doing since at least 1948) that we will be curses. However, it seems it's been just the opposite, Since 1948, you name it, and there's not an area in America wherein she hasn't become worse off. Hmm! I wonder if the following might prove a clue as to why this is:
  
  "Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a 'Jew' or to call a contemporary Jew an 'Israelite' or a 'Hebrew.'” (Richard Siegel and Carl Rheins, eds., “Identity Crisis,” The Jewish Almanac, (New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1980) p. 3.)
  
  That sentence is the opening sentence of the First Chapter of the 1980 Jewish Almanac. That today's Jews are not genetic Israelites is also admitted in "The Jewish Encyclopedia," the "Enyclopedia Judaica," "The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia," "The Standard Jewish Encyclopedia," and by many of their historians.
  - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
    
    actually it started in 1967 after the six day war that the USA started blessing the modern state of Israel. America loses the Vietnam War, 9-11, ever growing federal government, and now watching our middle east foreign policy collapse have all happened since then. ever since we fell into on foreign policy debacle after another.
    - Here here
      
      Christian Zionism started even earlier than that. Please google "The Roots of Christian Zionism: How Scofield Sowed Seeds of Apostasy" for more info. While there are legitimate critiques of this video, it provides valuable input to the conversation of this modern evangelical Christian phenomenon. The video asserts among other things that the 19th and early 20th century Jewish publishers of the bible made intentional, planned changes to the footnotes of the text to "clarify" how the text supports the creation and maintenance of a Zionist state. They considered the infiltration of the Baptist doctrine in the early 1900s to be a particular coup since that is the largest Protestant church in the country. Prior to that time few Christians would have supported the many wars and deaths it would take to set up and maintain the modern state of Israel. Definitely worth watching, especially when political talk turns to mideast wars and foreign aid. Are Christians in America righteous or just tricked?
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        the government really went all out after the six day war. before then there was several groups who naively forcefully fulfill prophecy which was fulfill in the ancient world. many Christians do not read their Bible as on continuous story of God's redemption. they separate the Old and New Testaments instead of reading them in light of each other.
  - John Adams
    
    First of all, what makes you think that the US is blessing Israel?
    Secondly, there is STRONG evidence that every time the US does something against Israel that within 48 hours something bad happens in the US.
  - Vladimir
    
    Based on your observation, Ted R. Weiland, are you suggesting that we shouldn't be supporting the modern state of Israel? If so, why?
    - Ephraimlad
      
      You're kidding, right? In America, being Zionist and a supporter of the Israeli nation is a prerequisite to office. Israel receives more foreign aid alone than all the nations of the Western Hemisphere combined; over $10 Million daily! They get our technology (which is often sold to our enemies) and our undying support in the UN. Of course, to continue would take many paragraphs, but you should get the point…
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
  
  where in the New Testament does it call us to bless Israel? Jesus pronounces curses upon many of the cities in Judea and Galilee including Jerusalem claiming that Sodom and Gomorrah would be better off in the day of judgment then those cities for their refusal to believe even though they witnessed so many signs and miracles. Jesus claims that the cities that were destroy long before Christ would have seen the signs and miracles that he had performed would have repented while the curse city did not. both the Palestinians and Israelis are descendents of Isaac, the son of promise. picking one over the other only adds to the conflict today.
  - John Adams
    
    Where do you think God changed His mind, or became an Indian giver?
    - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
      
      read Hebrews especially the eleventh chapter and pay close attention to the last part where the author declared that these died without seeing the problems. also pay close attention verses 13-16 where the author says they were looking for to a kingdom who God himself built. obviously has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel for it will eventually pass away, but the Kingdom of God will be a kingdom without end. Christ has been building his kingdom ever since that first Pentecost Sunday. Hebrews is a commentary on how the Old Testament and all its promises point to Jesus Christ as their fulfillment. there are many Palestinian Christians that Christian Zionists continue to curse in favor of an unrepentant, lost Jew.
      - John Adams
        
        So, you believe in replacement theology. The God of the Bible is NOT an Indian giver.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        Jesus preached that national Israel was to be replaced by His church. just read the parables of the vineyard and the tenants and the wedding of the king's son and his nobles. in each the chosen were replaced with others.
      - John Adams
        
        I believe that you are not reading those parables correctly.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        so what is the proper interpretation?
      - John Adams
        
        Those parables are not referring to Israel at all.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        they are talking about the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven. the vineyard is the kingdom and the tenants are the Jews and God is of course the owner of the vineyard. the servants are the prophets who were despised and even killed by the Jews, and the son is Jesus Christ himself. the king in the wedding feast is God and the son to be married is Jesus Christ. the nobles are the Jews for they were the chosen while those who actually allowed to attend are the gentiles. the servants again were the prophets just like in the other. in each the kingdom was taken away from the heart-harden Jews. even the Jews leaders got that they were the ones being replace and wanted to kill Jesus because of the hard harden hearts.
      - John Adams
        
        You don't understand that gentiles are just as responsible for the crucifixion of Christ as the Jews?
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        the Jews handed him over to the Romans. the gentiles did not know the God of Jews. in the parable of the vineyard the tenants said this is the heir of the vineyard, so lets kill him. the gentiles were following orders given by the Roman governor who gave the order hoping to stop an uprising by started by the Jewish leaders hence him washing his hands to show his innocence of the blood. Jesus told Pilate that those who handed him over were guilty of greater sin then Pilate would be. the gentiles were in ignorance while the Jews had both the law of Moses and the prophets telling them.
      - Bighoss
        
        Call it "replacement theology" or whatever else you wish to call it. What it is is the TRUTH, over against all the flights of fantasy embraced by the premillennialist proponents of an "end times" that is without support in scripture. Wesley Woods is right. The kingdom of God is not found in a covenant that has passed away; it is the kingdom that Christ has established and Jew and Gentile alike need to be in THAT kingdom, not in some restored Judaistic Zionist regime.
      - John Adams
        
        Whether you believe it or not, if you are truly saved, Christ will take you to Heaven before the Great Tribulation.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        how can anything be worse than what the Jewish nation experienced between 67-70 AD when they lost their homes, their temple, their beloved capital, and more than one million even lost their lives? all this happened within the generation of the hearers of Jesus Christ in the Olivet Discourse just as Jesus predicted "this generation will not pass away until all these things will take place."
      - John Adams
        
        Have you read the book of Revelation?
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        i have and seen the evidence that is was written before 70 AD very compelling inside the book while for the later date creates the need for forceful reinterpretation. “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. Revelation 17:9-10 NKJV Roman had five kings die before Nero Caesar ascend the throne before the fires in Rome and after Paul had written his two letters to Thessalonian church. i suggest getting yourself acquainted with ancient Roman history before reading Revelation again so you can better understand the book without listening to the self appointed "prophecy experts".
      - John Adams
        
        Then please try to explain how the numberous calamities mentioned in Revelation, and specifically those dealing with the stars, sun and moon, and the bloody sea, could possibly have occured in AD 70.
    - http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Patton/592034163 Andrew Patton
      
      Many of the Jews were cut off, but Romans 11 promises that the survivors will be grafted back in. After all, the Great Commission is to make disciples of all nations, and that includes Israel.
      - John Adams
        
        I believe that God's promises to Israel in the OT are still in effect.
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        Jeremiah declares that after the exile God was going to make a new covenant with Israel, which is Jesus Christ. read Deuteronomy and see that the law was if you follow the Lord your God and you will be blessed. if you turn and worship foreign god then the Lord your God will become an enemy of you and hand you over to your enemies. the book of Judges is a perfect example of this. as long as they followed the Lord their God they lived in peace and abundance. when they started worshiping other gods God allowed their enemies to conquer them. when they returned to the Lord their God he raised up a deliverer for them. then they followed the Lord their God for roughly a generation and then started the cycle all over again.
      - John Adams
        
        I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel as many are being mis-taught today.
      - pandeter
        
        Except they aren't.. As Jesus says "neither Jew nor gentile"… He came to save all, and Israel doesn't deserve nor is blessed with any special treatment.
      - John Adams
        
        It's really very sad that you've fallen for a lie from the pit of Hell.
      - pandeter
        
        Care to show any proof to back up your claim instead of just attacking those that believe differently?
      - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
        
        it is much like the option that was given to Jeremiah for the remnant of Judah after Nebuchadnezzar's hand picked governor was killed. the Lord promised that if they stay and put their trust in him he will not uproot them, but if they decided to leave for Egypt that the curse that they experienced under the siege will follow them causing the Egyptians to hate them. they can accept Jesus as their Messiah and be grafted back in while if they continue to harden their hearts they are still under God's judgment just like the gentiles.
  - http://profile.yahoo.com/3D5URBEMLDETROKW532MXRABII William Henry
    
    First of all, No where in the New Testament does Jesus "curse" any city, person, or even the fig tree. His words to the unfruitful fig tree were, "never man eat from you again", hardly a curse. To the cities (not Jerusalem) where he was not received he warned them, "woe to you, even Sodom would have repented if the works done here had been done there". You call that a curse, you need to hang out with some of my old friends that really know how to curse. And to Jerusalem, His words, " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, " I would have gathered you under my wings as a hen her chicks, but you would not". Even the religious leaders that opposed him, he rebuked, never cursed. Recall when James and John were ready to call fire down from Heaven and burn up a town in the tradition of Elijah, Jesus replied: You know not what spirit you are of. He healed the ear of Malchus after Peter cut it off, rebuked Peter for whacking the guy in the first place. As to modern day Israel, it is actually ancient Judah, and it is occupied primarily by "Jews", and "Levites". Jews are of the tribe of Judah, Levites are of the tribe of Levi. Then you have eleven other scattered tribes. All the tribes of Israel are "the chosen" seed of Abraham, through whom G-d will bless the world. Are things tough right now in this country, you bet. Compared to what, compared to the false prosperity we have had for the 30 years, maybe 40. Our policy toward Israel, has been two-faced. The only president since the sixties that has been solid to Israel has been Reagan, and even he criticized them when they destroyed the Iraqi nuclear facility(we later thanked G-d they did when we had to go to Kuwait). Our policy toward Israel has been to support a Palestinian state, which is not to Israel's best interest. Why is the Dome of the Rock still under Muslim control. Do you think any Muslim country would tolerate a Jewish temple on their sovereign soil. What do you think 9/11 was about, Bin Laden wanted the US off of Saudi soil. Divide Israel and G-d will do likewise to you. Hitler offered up the Jews as his "firstfruit" sacrifice(thats what holocaust means), and that really worked out well for him. The Soviets also singled out the Jews and they came down, they didn't begin to turn around until they opened the doors for Jews to leave and return to Israel. When it comes to Israel, I will always support them, as my own, if they are wrong I will trust G-d to correct them. I have done enough stupid stuff on my own, I refuse to make the mistake of being against them. Go ahead if you want, count me out.
    - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=58215905 Wesley Woods
      
      to make you happy pronounced judgment. judgment implies calling down a curse on those cities for just 40 years later not one was anymore.
- http://www.facebook.com/david.hodges.5070 David Hodges
  
  Why would Ashkenazi Jews, who are purported to be descendants of Shem, name themselves after Ashkenaz, a descendant of Japheth (Genesis 10: 1-3)?. If you want to find out who those who say they are Jews really are, google "John Hyrcanus" and read about this Jewish military leader, who conquered Edom in 135 B.C. and then forced the Edomites to convert to Judaism. If you google "Antipater the Idumaean," you can go to the Wikipedia website and read: "…even though Antipater and Herod the Great may have considered themselves of the Jewish faith, they were not considered Jewish by the observant and nationalist Jews of Judea. This influential family was resented for their Edomite ancestry, their Hellenistic incursions upon Jewish tradition, and their collusion with the Roman invaders." This is one of the reasons the 1925 edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia, volume 5, page 41 says, "Edom is in modern Jewry." So when you hear the phrase "chosen ones," do you think of Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Anton LaVey, Rahm Emanuel, Maximilien Robespierre, Adolf Hitler, etc. ? Is what happened in 1948 fulfillment of the prophecy of Israel returning to their land, or is it the fulfillment of Malachi 1: 4: "…Edom saith..we will return and build the desolate places"?
  - John Adams
    
    I believe that the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948 is fulfillment of end times prophecy.
    - http://www.facebook.com/david.hodges.5070 David Hodges
      
      Malachi 1:4?
      - John Adams
        
        Please explain what point you are trying to make.
      - http://www.facebook.com/david.hodges.5070 David Hodges
        
        My point is Jesus' point: There are those who say they are Jews and are not (Revelation 3: 9) How "Jewish" today's Jews are is a good question. How Mongolian Khazarian are they? How Edomitic are they? How much of the tribe of Judah are they? I submit that the best way to tell whether or not one who says he is a Jew really is a Jew is to see how he responds to truth. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."–Romans 2: 28, 29.
      - John Adams
        
        I'm afraid that you have fallen prey to the lie that the Church has replaced Israel.
      - pandeter
        
        Got any proof to back up the claim that the church hasn't replaced Israel? Israel in it's modern state has nothing to do with Christ, which was the sole purpose of Israel – What nation Christ would come from.
        
        I wonder, how many Jews believe in Jesus as their savior?
      - John Adams
        
        God's covenant with the Jews was one-sided. God will keep His promise even when the Jews haven't.
      - pandeter
        
        Except it ended when he sent his son to die for everyones sins.
      - John Adams
        
        That is just not true.
      - pandeter
        
        Care to prove it instead of just denying it?
    - Bighoss
      
      Help yourself to that belief and other perversions of history and prophecy. You have plenty of company in the nutjob community. Better–get and read a copy of "The End Time", by Russell Boatman. The chapter entitled "The Rupture of the Theory of the Rapture" is alone worth the price of the book.
      - John Adams
        
        I have great pity for those who do not believe in the Rapture.
Robert Alexander

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Here here

“Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.”
– John Sheehan, S.J.
Wordmahn

Though we do not in general stand with the folks (some of them here) of the so-called Christian Identity (Read Neo-Nazis), we should affirm that Israel broke her covenant with God and no longer stands in the covenant blessings she once enjoyed. The "called out ones" of the Church of Jesus Christ , now, by the grace of God stand in their place having now been designated by God as a "CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION." (1Pe 2:9) The true Church of Jesus has inherited the promises, most of the blessings (and will also incur the curses if we are disobedient) that formerly applied to the nation of Israel. The land, however, was given to Israel unilaterally by God, and is theirs. I also consider Israel to be our natural ally. And though the Jewish people are, at this time, apostate, they are never-the-less beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Rom 11:28)
- http://www.facebook.com/david.hodges.5070 David Hodges
  
  Will the real Nazis please stand up? Here is the Wikipedia description of the namesake of the word "Nazi": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nasi I am still waiting for an answer to the question I posed yesterday: "Why would Ashkenazi Jews, who are purported to be descendants of Shem, name themselves after Ashkenaz, a descendant of Japheth (Genesis 10: 1-3)?." Anyone who wishes to answer that one can go ahead and attempt a cover-up of what the 1925 edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia, volume 5, page 41 says: "Edom is in modern Jewry." And don't forget what Jehu told Jehoshaphat in 2 Chronicles 19: 2–that loving those who hate the Lord will bring God's wrath upon oneself.
  - Wordmahn
    
    David — Frankly, I work for a living and don't have the time to run down all your esoteric historical claims. What I know, is that the consensus of the historical Christian Church does not support your baloney, and the Nazis did. I'll sitck with the holy catholic (and that's not Roman, friend!) church rather than Adolf and friends. Tell me, David, will you condemn as false and dispicable, the claims and the aims of the Nazi party and their modern day counterparts? I'd like to hear you say so.
- T. Edward Price
  
  Wordmahn, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please explain what Christian Identity is, so-called or not, and which posters adhere to such beliefs. Also, what is your definition of Nazi (neo, paleo, or any other kind). It is my understanding that Nazi and Christian are antithetical to one another. Help me discern the distinction. Thank you.
  - http://www.facebook.com/david.hodges.5070 David Hodges
    
    I'll take the first six letters of "Christian Identity" over the last four of "Askenazi" any day!
  - Wordmahn
    
    I will probably draw a firestorm from the Internet Sturmtruppen (German for storm troopers), but here goes. "Christian Identity" is a Bible-based cult. Like many Bible based cults, it in many ways it looks so similar to evangelical Christianity that some Christians join unaware. I'm no expert but one of the central problems with "Christian Identity" is an apriori, anti-Jewish bias through which they reinterpret and twist both the Bible and history. "Christian Identity" are into the old British Israel thing which falsely holds that the "real" people of promise, immigrated from Palestine to Europe several millennium ago (or something of the sort) and became the foundation for the Anglo-Saxon race. Hence, white people are "the chosen" of the Lord. Any who is reading and paying attention should note the similarities to something that was promoted in Germany in the 1930's and 40's. Hence, the Nazi crack that I made. "Christian Identity" people would deny that they are anti-Semitic because they have re-defined (again, a common characteristic of cults) the whole idea of Jewishness. They actually embrace Israeli identity as they define it by claiming that THEY are the true covenant people by virtue of their race (white), but in practice they despise all things Jewish as truly defined by the Bible and history and badly mangle both.
    - T. Edward Price
      
      Thank you for your reply. I want to make sure I have it straight. Those who believe America to be descended from Jacob/Israel through Ephraim, but who reject Christ as God, such as Romney and the LDS church, are not Nazi's, but those who claim the same heritage, AND submit to Yeshua the Christ as Creator and Saviour, ARE Nazi's? Mormons are not anti-Semitic because they REJECT the Deity of Christ but others ARE anti-Semitic AND Nazi's because they ACCEPT the Deity of Christ and submit to His will? A look at the Behistun Rock might be eye opening. You also might want to be aware that it is a Ninth Commandment violation to call a Christian an anti-Christ Nazi just because they have views outside the normally accepted conventions of modern Judeo-Christianity. And, ultimately, is it worse to be anti-Jewish, or anti-Christian?
      - Wordmahn
        
        Uh, huh. Thought I might get such a response. Well, first of all, you display clear logical fallacies in your post. For one thing the fallacy of either/or. My condemnation of one false system does not logically require me to support another false system. Funny you should mention Mormons. The people I personally know who subscribe to "Christian Identity," also consider themselves to be LDS, although I know that the local Mormon establishment would not affirm them. In any case, both "Christian Identity" and Mormonism are false systems that twist the truth of scripture and history. "Christian Identity" does so in a way that, among other things, breeds racial hatred and false racial pride. "Christian Identity" is the prefered religious affiliation of Skin Heads and other Neo-Nazi groups. Nazi Germany ran with ideas very similar to "Christian Identity" and we see where it led them. Please tell the boys and girls reading this blog whether you condemn or support the views and claims of the Nazi party of Adolph Hitler and their modern neo-Nazi counterparts? If you renounce these people and their evil notions, please say so plainly, or we will know where your sympathies lay.
        
        To say that so-called "Christian Identity" is associated with Nazism is not bearing false witness. The two groups hold ideas that are very similar, and there is a clear linkage among today's neo-Nazi groups. All one must do is goggle up a few white power web sites such as the Aryan Nation to see that this is so. Besides what I've read and seen, I KNOW people in Christian Identity and their sympathies are very neo-Nazi. But if you support "Christian Identity" and think Nazis are schmucks, just tell us both things plainly and we'll perhaps see that the two are at least not linked in you.
      - T. Edward Price
        
        Respectfully, there are no logical fallacies on my part. You mentioned some "Christian Identity Mormons". ALL Mormons believe they are descended from biblical Israel whether Christian Identity or not. So it is logical to assume that if belief of Israelite ancestry is the sole criterion for being labeled a Nazi, then all Mormons are Nazi's.
        I also personally know some who consider themselves "Christian "Identity", and they usually have all the characteristic traits of "undercover Feds". I have ancestors who died fighting the Nazi's, as well as Communists. As a Christian. it would be absolutely impossible to subscribe to the tenets of Nazism, Communism, or Talmudism. I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of any so-called "Christian Identity cult". I believe Yeshua the Christ is God manifest in the flesh, and have been baptized into him. I just believe that blanket categorizations based upon an unpopular belief are not Christian. One disagreeing about the "identity" of the true descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, does not make one a Nazi. Believing that Anglo Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Celtic peoples are indeed the remnant of "lost Israel", does not make one a Nazi or a White-Supremacist. Most Nazi's or neo-Nazi's believe in Odin, not Christ, and disdain Christianity because they believe it to be nothing more than Jewish superstition.
        
        Belief in Israelite heritage carries the sense of humbling responsibility, not racial supremacy. I saw no posts with any Odinist/Nazi overtones, only a variety of sincerely held, albeit diverse, Christian views. We can disagree without false accusations.
        
        Blessings in Christ
      - Wordmahn
        
        To Edward Price — I appreciate your respectful tone. I incorrectly concluded that you were about to spring a rhetorical ambush on me. My bad.
        
        I'll concede that the linkage I made between "Christian Identity" and Nazis was too tight. I was being a little flippant in my original post. That said, I still find a LOT of correspondence between the two, and I'm pretty sure there is more to it than just my personal experience. I am not saying that everything within the Nazi worldview is always found in "Christian Identity," but that "Christian Identity" is by far the preferred theological attempt at justification found among Aryans, Nazis and other white, race-hating groups who prefer some kind of Christian-ish trappings. In America as in Germany, that would include quite a few people. Indeed, during the war the head of the official German protestant church re-wrote the entire Bible according to Nazi anti-Jewish biases. It would have been comical if it were not so tragic. If memory serves, I recall seeing one of the surviving copies (Almost all of them were burned.) with large swastikas emblazoned over it. A very strange sight it was.
        
        As for race-based favor with God, I have never seen or heard of anyone holding that view in humility as you suggest. I can not deny that it is possible, but wherever I have seen people link their race with Divine favor, the mix expressed itself with pride, arrogance, and hatred for other races as we've seen in groups like the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, Black Liberation Theology, and Nazis. The well known legacy of racism is factionalism, evil suspicion, hatred, mayhem, and death. This goes for the Jews as well, by the way, and they were the only ones who once had some scriptural warrant for it. But even they misunderstood their privileges as a nation under God's grace and largely failed to extend God's love to other nations.
        
        Call me uncharitable, but I have difficulty imaging members of racist sects to be genuine elect of God, Christians. At the very least, any genuine Christians who have stumbled into such groups should leave them at once. The New Testament church is explicitly told to be race blind. We told that only thing that matters in the household of God is that we all, regardless of race or national origin, are brothers and sisters in the family of God, a new creation race of beings with the blood of Christ flowing in our veins.
Ambassador David

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
and Gen 12:3 speaks of Abraham who was separate from ALL The Nation States of The Secular World and was blessed in that holiness.
Come Out from amongst them and be seperated unto God Almighty.
I renounced my U.S. Citizenship 20 tears ago by way of becoming a New Creation, a Child of Abraham though I was little more than a dirt cloud before that.
Bighoss

Not to worry. Israel still has plenty of support from the nutjob fringe of the evangelical community, including the bloated lardbag Texas crackpot, John Hagee; the demonstrably false prophet, Hal Lindsey; and the blustering, ridiculous Rod Parsley. These premillennialist perverters of scripture continue to offer aid and comfort to Israel, spouting their un-holy and heretical doctrines about the future restoration of Judaism on earth, the re-building of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and other such eschatological nonsense, in defiance of the clear teaching of scripture to the contrary (for starters, read Hebrews 7 through 10)