Mormonism's cultural rise likely to continue

Although Mitt Romney lost his presidential bid, Christians should be prepared for higher Mormon visibility and credibility in America, an interfaith witness expert and a seminary professor told Baptist Press.

"When Mormon missionaries knock on people's doors, they will be seen in a more positive light when people know that [Romney] was once a Mormon missionary," said Tal Davis, executive vice president of MarketFaith Ministries in Tallahassee, Fla., who served with the North American Mission Board for more than 20 years training Christians in interfaith witness.

"They will likely gain entrance into homes where they formerly would have been denied."

The ascendancy of a Mormon leader to the cusp of the presidency, Davis said, "testifies to the fact that most Americans no longer regard Mormons as out of the cultural mainstream, as was true in the 19th and early 20th centuries."

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petroskhan

Christians "should engage Mormons with love and friendship," Davis advised. "Nonetheless, we cannot ignore the need to share Christ with them. Mormonism is undeniably a false system and those in it are lost and need the salvation that only Jesus can provide."

How true. "Lost" is the perfect word to describe those adhering to this bizarre faith system.

"We should understand that they are a deeply moral, but lost group of people," Greenham said. "Christians should thus be prepared to befriend Mormons and look for opportunities to engage them in meaningful biblical-oriented conversations over a considerable length of time."

This might prove more difficult than Mr. Greenham seems to think it is, given the typical Mormon refusal to actually discuss anything regarding their faith. Getting an answer from a Mormon on the topic of Mormon faith seems to be attempting to work in violation of the laws of physics.

And if Mormonism IS on the rise, what does this prove? That it's right? That the anti-Bible, anti-God teachings have merit? That there is any truth to their teachings?

No. If popularity were a measure of worth, than Obama is a better leader than Romney (even with his flaws) would have been for this nation. The Pope would be perfect, and infallible. And democracy would be the wrong way to run a country. Etc, etc.

The only thing one can take from this article is that one should never underestimate the stupidity of the common man.
- Evermyrtle
  
  Never! Not some one that says that JESUS CHRIST was born to a god and his wife a goddess. As I said before look up the writings of Joseph Smith.They had me fooled for a little until I found this site.
  
  You have no idea what you are even suggesting blasphemy!!
  - petroskhan
    
    Read my post again, a bit more carefully. The only blasphemy I mention is that of Mormonism, a Satanic religion to its core.
  - Esther
    
    The Petroskhan-Evermyrtle Alliance… Are you joining the Petroskhan Cult at his house Evermyrtle?
    - petroskhan
      
      Oh, do try to make sense, you childish twit.
Winston

Do not be deceive by the false gospel of Mormonism. They preach "another Jesus" and when they come to your door do NOT invite them in as it is against Biblical teaching: "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work." 2 John 7-11
Of course Mormons say they believe in Jesus, but it is NOT the Jesus of the Holy Scriptures, but their Jesus is "the brother of Lucifer". I just wonder what new revelation their so-called Apostles (top Mormon leadership) will have to say about this, and how Mormons will play into the coming One-World Religion?
- Vladimir
  
  You are right, Winston, we do preach "another Jesus" from what you preach. I grew up Protestant so I know the "Jesus" you preach. Your "Jesus" is a "triune god" invented by the Council of Nicea some 300 years after the birth of Jesus Christ. We preach the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. People who live in glass houses…
  
  Yes, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer and, guess what, you are also a brother of Lucifer. But that makes you a brother of Jesus, too. And let's not forget the rest of the family, we are all children of God the Father. Don't believe me? Reread the New Testament.
  - petroskhan
    
    And some day you will be the equal of God, right, Vlad? That's what Joseph Smith taught, wasn't it? You believe that, right? Or do you know better than your founder?
    
    And when the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, we should trust the Book of Mormon, written by the man who claimed to be a prophet, yet made several prophecies which failed to come true, thereby failing the Biblical test of a prophet, right?
    - Vladimir
      
      We will never be equal to God. We may achieve godhood, with His help, but as His children we can never be equal to Him. So what is the difference between the Father and His children if both are gods? The answer is glory. All glory to God in the highest.
      
      The question you should be asking yourself, petroskhan, does God want us to be like He is? Another question is, can He achieve this? If you answered yes to both of these, you would be right.
      
      One final question you should ask yourself is what would challenge you enough to keep you from becoming bored when you live forever? You mock what God has revealed to us, but go ahead and come up with something better. Best God if you can.
      
      You go to your heaven, I will go to work for God. You just can't get a better boss.
      - petroskhan
        
        "We will never be equal to God."
        Well, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many of the founders of your "religion" stated otherwise.
        
        The question I should be asking myself is indeed does God want us to be like Him? The answer is "Yes", and the path to that is found in humble submission to his will, not making up the rules as we go, and not following the blasphemous ramblings of Joseph Smith.
        
        You revere a man, a mere man, who is easily shown to be a fraud and a liar. He was NOT a prophet, and he did NOT speak for God. This is without doubt, easily proven, and beyond refutation.
        
        "You mock what God has revealed to us…" No, I mock Joseph Smith, and the gullible fools who follow him, marching lockstep in the armies of Satan, the Great Deceiver. I mock those who choose to blind themselves to the truth, and follow nonsense. What God has revealed to us is the truth in the Holy Bible. YOU mock His truth, you mock His glory, and claim that the Book of Mormon, riddled with blasphemies, contradictions and nonsense, is superior to His inspired Word.
        
        I will not say where I will go. That's no my decision. That's up to God. But I can say, honestly and with proof, that I am following His word, on the path He has laid out for us.
        
        You are lost. You need to open your Bible and your heart, and ask God to help you.
      - Vladimir
        
        You didn't answer two questions.
        
        And after you answer them, tell me who stated that we would be equal to God someday.
      - petroskhan
        
        There were two I didn't answer? Hmm…well, that still puts me ahead of you, doesn't it? You've never answered a single question regarding Mormonism that I've asked.
        
        As for who stated that we would be equal to God, I already told you that. Or, rather, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. answered that. Of course, there is more recent agreement with that, such as this:
        
        "On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62); and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!"- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, October 1994
        
        That answer enough for you?
      - Vladimir
        
        I am aware of Elder Snow's comment, but you evidently don't grasp it. God is not static. He is progressing endlessly. We will never be equal to Him. We can become as He is now, but by then, He will be beyond what He is now.
        
        The two questions you shy away from are, is God able to help us become gods? And can you come up with a better eternity than working for God, doing what He commands you to do and progressing with Him forever?
      - petroskhan
        
        I'm not shying away from anything, and I do grasp Snow's comment completely.
        
        You claim God "is progressing endlessly." He is all-knowing, and all-powerful. What "progress" is there beyond the absolute Master of everything? What does He have to learn?
        
        WE progress, but God is all-knowing and eternal. He has no need to "progress".
        
        "Can God help us become gods?" I will refer you to the Bible.
        
        Isaiah 43:10 – ""I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."
        
        YOUR position is contrary to the stated Word of God, and therefore irrelevant and blasphemous.
        
        You second question is irrelevant. I am not avoiding it, so will simply tell you that serving God, in this world and the next, is the greatest goal to which one could aspire. But you won't be doing that by listening to Satan's fool, Joseph Smith.
      - Vladimir
        
        God is omnipotent, all powerful, etc. and He increases in glory. We can bring glory to Him and that is what I want to do. You are entitled to your interpretation of how you will be serving God forever, just as I am. But unlike me, you have yet to have your interpretation confirmed by God as James advises in 1:5.
        
        We've discussed Isaiah 43:10. God was speaking messianically to people who had formed gods before and would do it again. He wouldn't contradict Himself later as recorded in the New Testament. We are to be joint heirs with Jesus Christ. You may interpret this to fit you narrative, but I would advise seeking wisdom from God.
      - petroskhan
        
        Malachi 3:6 “For I the LORD do not change"
        
        James 1:15 “every act of good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming
        down from the Father of Heavenly lights, with whom is no change or shifting shadow..”
        
        Hmm…seems like the Bible disagrees with your stand again, Vlad.
        
        And just FYI, you Mormons really need to stop running to James 1:5 as an excuse for every contradiction between your beliefs and the Bible. To clue you in, James 1:5 is NOT a carte blanche to blaspheme, lie or contradict the Word of God.
        
        Thought you might like to know.
      - Vladimir
        
        So you interpret Malachi 3:6 and James 1:15 to mean something other than the Lord is stating that He is perfectly consistent in His dealings with His children.
        
        James advises you to seek wisdom from God and God will give you wisdom. Nothing more and nothing less. We take James at his word with good results. It's available to you, too. Try it on Malachi 3:6 and James 1:15 as a test.
      - petroskhan
        
        "So you interpret Malachi 3:6 and James 1:15 to mean something other than the Lord is stating that He is perfectly consistent in His dealings with His children."
        
        Could you point where I said that? I have quoted clear verses that state that God does not change. You are claiming that He DOES change. Tell me, which one of you is lying, Vlad? Which one of you is WRONG?
        
        And I swear you Mormons sound like retarded children, who've managed to remember a single verse, and repeat it like it's some sort of spiritual snake oil, guaranteed to solve any problem.
        
        Your religion is blasphemous. James 1:5 does NOT excuse your blasphemy. Get that through your head, will you?
        
        Every one of your early founders claimed that God changes, that He was once as we are, and that men could become as He now is. That is still a part of your foolish doctrine, and is counter to the Bible. James 1:5 doesn't excuse, condone or explain you all claiming that you will become equals to the Almighty.
        
        Find another rabbit's foot. This one ain't working, pal.
      - Vladimir
        
        I can't believe someone who claims to believe the bible is true and that it is the word of God, stumbles over a passage in it, petroskhan. If God is willing to give us wisdom, does it upset you that He might not provide what you are expecting or that He has provided to someone else what you disagree with? Otherwise there exists in the Bible a passage, James 1:5, that you are declaring inoperative. A strange position for you. Your argument is with God's word not me.
        
        Also, I think you mean heresy, not blasphemy. I am showing no disrespect for God. However, I am not in agreement with some of your beliefs which makes me a heretic in your mind.
        
        I stand firm in my conviction that God is progressing and will forever progress in glory. Those passages you quoted affirm that God is perfectly consistent in working with us for our salvation. YOU are suggesting that they relate to his condition, physical, spiritual or whatever. But we have scriptural proof that he came to earth as an infant and grew to maturity. That's change with a capital C.
      - petroskhan
        
        Your position would greatly benefit from your ceasing to attempt to twist my words, or to add words to what I've said.
        
        "does it upset you that He might not provide what you are expecting or that He has provided to someone else what you disagree with?" First, to be clear, I'm not upset. And God can "provide" me with whatever He chooses. I don't question His will. The gross error of your statement lies in the fact, proven and demonstrated, that your foundational beliefs are in contradiction to the Bible. It's not I who disagree with your doctrines, Vlad, it's God. I am simply pointing out the transgressions of your "faith", not getting upset over them. I do not subscribe to your blasphemous ideologies, so why would I get upset over them?
        
        I am not, nor have I, stated that James 1:5 is "inoperative", and you're obviously inserting that lie to bolster your abuse of it. I stated that it does not cover the blasphemous prattlings of your "prophet", Joseph Smith and his successors. Nor does it excuse you claiming that your clear contradictions of Biblical statements is somehow valid.
        
        And your entire organization, Vlad, shows great disrespect for God, by denying the veracity of his Word, and by claiming the ability to become His equals; this is in opposition to His Word, and shows a disregard for His position on the subject. If that's not disrespectful, ergo, blasphemous, I don't know what is.
      - Vladimir
        
        You are starting to wander and when you wander you use terms like "proven" without any proof and "demonstrated" with no demonstration. You claim "clear contradictions" with the Bible and yet everything you quote is subject to your own suspect interpretations.
        
        You claim we deny the veracity of his Word, which is what you call the Bible, but we are only at odds with your interpretations of certain Bible passages.
        
        And finally, I know you are wandering when I state something and you miss it entirely. For example, I said we will never be Heavenly Father's equal and you come right back and accuse us of claiming that we will be.
        
        I think you are out of gas again.
      - petroskhan
        
        "I think you are out of gas again." You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine. Mine is that you're wrong. :D
        
        I have, in previous posts on this forum, directed at those to whom the "proven" and "demonstrated" comments were made, detailed those contradictions. No answer was ever made regarding them, and the only response to such postings was insults, and avoidance of the issues.
        
        If you are truly interested in a discussion on the matter of contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and history, etc., I would be only too happy to point them out yet again, to save you the trouble of going back through many, many posts.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How then do you explain verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain”? Also, Jonah 3:10, which says, “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.” Similarly ,Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” of something contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.
      - petroskhan
        
        You're going to have to show me how demonstrating compassion or enforcing a law (with its commensurate punishment) shows a change in one's basic nature.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The issue is that he repented. One cannot repent if one is all knowing and perfect. That implies that this god, who knew how everything would turn out before he did a single act of creation, decided he made a mistake in creating man. If he made a mistake, he is not perfect. If he did not make a mistake, he had done nothing which required a repentance.
      - petroskhan
        
        You have cited three verses.
        
        In the first, Gen. 6:6, it simply says that He felt grief and pain over the creation of man. This does not, to follow your original statement, show that there was or is any change in God's nature.
        
        In the second, it is stating that elected to show compassion, and not enact the threatened punishment. Again, no change in His nature evidenced here.
        
        In the third, you cite a verse that again shows God relenting, and not enacting a punishment that was merited by the peoples' actions.
        
        So, in all three verses, all that has been shown is empathy and compassion…not change. The change I see is in the subject you wish to discuss. You started off claiming that these verses showed how God's nature had changed, and now you want to discuss whether or not YOU feel God is perfect…okay, I'll play.
        
        You are once again going to same old argument you've used before, which you have never shown to be logical or sensible. You continually attempt to connect knowledge with action, without showing reason or logic to do so. God knows everything, and can do anything, so He must, by your argument, DO everything. Problem is, there are two sides to most things (at least). God could destroy the world, so He must do so, if what you're saying is to have merit. He should also create a mountain of diamonds in Jeff Dixon's living room, or He does not exist (since He CAN do it, He MUST do it, right?). At the same time, He must create and destroy, punish and forgive. Which is it?
        
        So, one more time. He knows what He will do. He knows how He will feel. That does not change what He will do or how He will feel. It also does not mean that emotional responses are obviated by this knowledge. You are attempting, as usual, to apply YOUR motivations to someone else, in this case, God.
        
        If you could get a glimpse of the future, and know, with 100% certainty, that something emotionally devastating was going to happen in your life, does that mean that you wouldn't feel anything when it did happen?
        
        And why does repentance preclude perfection? He did something, knowing the outcome…knowing how He would feel at a particular moment, but also knowing that it served His long-range, higher goal. Sure, He felt some remorse over the necessities of the beginning, but that does not take away from the importance of the big picture, and the purpose being served.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It does not say that god was sad over what he had to do. It says he regretted his decision in doing it. One does not regret a necessary decision. One might be sad over the results, but it would not mean the person regretted doing what they did.
      - petroskhan
        
        You do know that I'm not going to agree with you, right?
        
        "The Lord grieved that He had made man…" is the part to which you refer, i am assuming, yes?
        
        Sure, He regretted that He had to do it, considering the great difficulty and pain that resulted from it. However, it was necessary to His long range goal, so it had to be done. Apparently you have a problem with this logic. I suggest you take that up with Him.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am quite sure you will disagree. You have it very clear that in your mind, the god of the bible is perfection. I just find it difficult to see how you arrive at your opinion.
        
        God, who is perfect, and lives in a sinless universe, decides to create angels and man, fully knowing they will bring sin into this previously perfect universe. He does this even though he cannot abide sin. He creates man without a knowledge of good and evil, places a tree with forbidden fruit within their reach, fully aware that they do not understand and will disobey him. He does this so that he will have thousands of years of bloodshed. The only way he can fix this problem (the only way, mind you, even though he is all powerful) is to send Jesus to earth to be killed in a bloodthirsty way. And this plan is considered to the the best he can come up with?
      - Vladimir
        
        The Lord is perfectly consistent in his actions, love and mission, which is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How can an all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent god increase in anything?
      - YO mama
        
        How can a powerless being, of little knowledge, with scant ability to dominate his own living room, and who could possibly cease to exist at any second, presume to know what God can or cannot do? Something about inane comments Il Duce?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Fortunately, we are discussing a fictional concept of god, As far as inane comments go, you continue to show that is all you got.
      - Vladimir
        
        God is not omnipresent, but his influence is. He increases in glory.
      - petroskhan
        
        But if He has stated that all glory is His, then what increase in glory could be accomplished?
      - Vladimir
        
        I don't know, petroskhan. It is my understanding that He is creating glory all the time by what He is doing. He has a very large family and it is growing all the time. Perhaps a component of glory is love. I don't know.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        what is the difference between god and his influence since this god is all powerful?
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, I'm not sure I understand your question, but I believe it to be sincere unlike what I usually get asked. So I'll give it an honest try.
        
        God is all powerful, but for His purposes He does not violate man's agency. His influence is persuasion, enlightenment, comfort, truth, etc. not force. He has stated that "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.." Under direction of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ has brought immortality to all of us through His atonement. This is commonly referred to as salvation by grace.
        
        Eternal life, which is the description of the highest quality of life in the hereafter, must be earned. We earn it by keeping God's commandments. It will be His judgement as to whether or not we are worthy of this gift of eternal life. Not all will inherit eternal life, but will inherit a lesser kingdom. And a very few will be cast into outer darkness.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        i do not care if you believe that god is all powerful but somehow cannot make man do what he wants. Your views on the subject are meaningless. It is possible that god could change people but decided not to so that he does not violate peoples free will. But that only means he is not in control. But god is supposedly in control. Therefore, he must control what occurs. If he does not control it, he is not in control.
      - Esther
        
        You never answered my question about the Blind Watchmaker
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, your question is a good one. Why does a God who is all-powerful not use force to achieve His objectives?
        
        The short answer is, God is all knowing so He knows that force will not achieve His objective of raising His children to become like He is—a God.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Then he is not in control. It is a very simple concept. He is either in control or he is not in control. If he allows Man to make our own decisions, then he is not in control. However, the bible says that god IS in control, which cannot be true if he allows us to make our own decisions.
      - Esther
        
        The Mormons see it this way Jeff: We are children of God. We are made in His image and likeness. God would never want any entity to put restraints on Him. So He does not put restraints on us nor does He allow an entity to do so. Yet, there are consequences for making wrong choices, just as there are for making good one.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Who or what could put restraints on an all powerful god? But that does not address the issue. Either god is control or he is not. It is one or the other.
      - Esther
        
        The Mormons see it this way: Nothing could really, but the point is He wouldn't like it. That is the issue. Note that God does not put constraints on His children. There are right and wrong choices and His children, us, have the choice to make of a good or bad one. The consequence is as you might imagine. Consider if your child made a good choice or a bad one. What are the consequences? It is not rocket science.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I might not like it if someone said I had to wear a dog collar, but so what? I can prevent one being put on me and I can take it off if it was put on me. So, god does not like the idea of a restraint? Again, so what? A restraint that one attempts to put on an all powerful deity is like water on a ducks back. It has nothing to do with humanity.
        
        And the bigger issue is that it does not address my point. Either god is is control or he is not. Which one is it? If he is in control, then nothing can put a restraint on him.
      - Esther
        
        You are obviously a lot like God, since you are made in His image and I don't read men's minds. You tell me. I am just voicing to you what I think Mormons believe about The Father. He is obviously in control. That is definitely a male and a godly characteristic.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am nothing like an all powerful deity. And I am consistent in my views, which the biblical god is sadly unable to do.
      - Esther
        
        King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) http://bible.cc/genesis/1-27.htm acc. 112012
        Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
        
        I am voicing, again, what I think is the Mormon's view. Just trying to answer your concern about it. I could be wrong. Maybe Vlad will chime in.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, god is both male and female?
      - Esther
        
        You found another contradiction. Had you noticed this before?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I had noticed it before.
      - Esther
        
        Excellent
      - Esther
        
        I have no doubt you are consistent in your views while the biblical god is not. You have shown this time and time again. No argument there. Also, I would point out your view of the biblical scriptures are not unlike Joseph Smith, and he became very passionate about changing it.
      - Esther
        
        Look up the concept of reductionism. That is what you do to take things to the ultimate absurd. That's all.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You should worry about delusion and mental illness. You exhibit signs of both.
      - Esther
        
        You only wish.
      - Esther
        
        God is always control. He controls Himself from interfering with man's agency. If He tried to control yours or anybody else's agency He would be Satanic.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The god of the bible is Satanic. He is constantly killing people or oedering other to kill in his name.
      - Esther
        
        If your children came home and told you they were following Esther and there was nothing you could do about it, you would be furious, just like any parent whose kid they told was commanded to not follow Esther. It is not the God of the bible who is satanic, it is who you follow is satanic. But why should you be furious, in just a few short years you will be gone as Petroskhan has pointed out, just as you believe. It is different with the Plan of Salvation, where the Father has plans for us if we obey his commandments, just like your kids if they obey your rules, which you set for them to protect them.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape
        and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your
        valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword.
        I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you
        will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
        This is not people who are disobeying god. This is what the biblical god promises to do to people. He is a moral monster.
      - Esther
        
        No, If that in reality what is written, it is because — according to Joseph Smith — incorrectly translated, for my God is not a moral monster.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, I am sure it should have been translated as I will bring you milk and cookies.
      - Esther
        
        People like you who hated the masses and wanted to control people like you do, though you say you don't, interpreted the literature to scare people.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are a bigger loon than Despeville. And that is scary
      - Esther
        
        No I am not Calvinist. I do not drink or smoke or lambast people based on their religion. Despeville is a drunk. He should, as you should, investigate the Mormon church. The word of wisdom greatly improves one's health and attitude. Men who are cads are scary. And you are one.
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, you feel that God is not in control if He allows man to make their own decisions. The answer, I believe, is in understanding the character of God and what He is achieving.
        
        He is raising His children to become as He is. He has revealed that FORCING us will not result in our ultimate perfection. But, through our obedience, correct decisions and a lot of repentance, we can become worthy to receive His power and authority which according to Jesus Christ is our inheritance. Will all of His children make it? Unfortunately not, but it will be the result of their choices.
        
        Does He have the ability to take away our agency? Of course, He is in total control. But He won't because one of His character qualities is perfect wisdom.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Perfect wisdom is hardly demonstrated by the biblical god.
        
        Let me ask a question. Can god condone sin?
      - Vladimir
        
        No, Jeff Dixon, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yet he creates people who do nothing but sin. Rather odd behavior for an all perfect god who cannot stand any sin at all.
      - Esther
        
        He may be the Blind Watchmaker, Jeff.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That still does not explain how a god who cannot abide sin creates people who do nothing but sin. The Blind Watchmaker merely supposes a god who does not interfere. If the Blind Watchmaker cannot abide sin, the problem still exists. If god can abide sin, then the Christian view, including the Mormons are wrong about him.
      - Esther
        
        I do not presume to know what characteristics the Blind Watchmaker (or whatever one can metaphorically think up) would have except for the fact if He were in fact God, then primarily, He would have NO contradiction.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The blind watchmaker idea does not have any contradictions. It is also impossible to demonstrate.
      - Esther
        
        Then it is not by definition science. Thanks for the admission finally.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I never said it was science. No admission, sorry you blithering loon.
      - Esther
        
        Thanks for that admission that it is not science.
        I will thank you to never use that kind of language on me again. Thank you.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Since you act like a blithering loon, expect to be called one.
      - Esther
        
        Why don't you EVER mention the DEVIL, Mr. Dixon? His presence explains a heck of a lot of evil (or do you prefer bad) in the world. Christians believe all the bad you attribute to God, really should be attributed to the Devil. Now you do not think God exists but you mention him very frequently. Should you not give equal time to the other non-existent being that so concern the Christian, Saint, and actually many other people.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I mention the devil all the time. I even have a post about him on my blog. Why don't you fess up to all of your lies?
      - Esther
        
        No, you do not mention a lot of what you have on your blog on Zionica for all to see. But that is YOUR shortcoming. Why don't you bring all that stuff into the open and watch the fireworks? You wouldn't do it because you like the comfortable sort-of-resident-atheistic-but nice-guy-position you have on this site.
        
        Secondly, no response needed.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Right, since clicking on my name only takes one to my blog. I know you do not desire a response. It takes to much effort on your part to think up more lies when you do respond.
      - Esther
        
        Bring it onto Zionica and let the people with whom you debate decide since you delight in the instruction of the adversary.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I bring all my posts here. Unlike you, my views do not change based on who I am chatting with.
      - Esther
        
        lol sure, got it!
      - Esther
        
        liar
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Oh please, like your posts to me are anything like your posts to Glen. You are pathetic.
      - Esther
        
        I recall I mentioned you should express more of the things on your blog on Zionica. I do not understand what you are really saying. I told you everything about me. And you call me pathetic. You have a short memory. You force me to stop showing my feeling for you and you push me away when I wanted to be near you. I don't know what you would accept from me. Now I know of course you want me to disappear. You may get your wish very soon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You fired the first volley. Then you escalated it when you started lying about me.
        
        I don't want anything from you. I do not need crazy in my life.
      - Esther
        
        No you want to destroy people – me in particular. That is glaringly clear, you don't care. I have been your example to show the world how great you are. You are the henchman for the great reality show. I don't watch TV that much but it cannot be avoided at the gym and other places. But you do. You love the drama. It is your religion. You are Mr. Big Hollyweird.
      - Esther
        
        Oh yes, the "first volley," which you never saw and never acknowledged. That is how you "forward" your argument: Ignore the facts: THE first volley was the denial of your partner Mary Rogers that Obama did and does support infanticide. You have crazy in your life. You fabricate it every day. You are the Mr. Big Hollyweird, not me.
      - Esther
        
        Then of course Mary Rogers will be your best option. One really needs time, though, to explain to you about the Saints' view of God, the Devil, sin and salvation, because you still think you know it all, but you wouldn't want to hear it from me. I am sure you don't want any thing from me, since you have implied my incompetence and inferiority. Maybe Vladimir will be so generous, because we are not wrong. Chose who you will. I couldn't care any less about telling you anything but insults in return for your constant insults.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Mary Rogers was never an option. I don't know her. But she did bring out your insanity to an new level.
      - Esther
        
        You are lying once again. I will look for your admission that you know her and bighoss and their politics. The thing you seem to have selectively forgotten is that I caught her in a big lie and you never checked it out, believing so much in her integrity. By doing so you insulted my integrity. But perhaps you wouldn't know how important that is to a person who is the head of a family. You simply expected me to kowtow to you and her right then and there and when I did not we had a stupid argument just as the latest fiasco … just as ridiculous. Just because you would not check out my claim. Unbelievable. I found the particular video broadcast again and sent it to you. She rebutted with the cleaned up version of Obama perfect record on wiki, which by the way can be edited even by you in some cases but by someone who wants to make the man look like an angel boy god. If you have any decency you will look at that and tell me if that is not fraud. The one I showed on zionica, which she says was untrue, is a broadcast of him saying to deal with the born-alive babies, who are American citizens, the moment they are born, when they do not come out "limp and dead."
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I never said I believed in her integrity. I said she was consistent with her belief's. You are arguing an issue that does not exist.
      - Esther
        
        No that was your made up story after the fact. You do that often. I call it twisting.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        it is your attempt to make your lunacy sound acceptable
      - Esther
        
        You only wish
      - Esther
        
        Here is what brought out your Madam Mary Rogers' insanity, followed by your very own case; charming you two, in your infanticide! The article: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/08/23/President-Infanticide-Dem-Plank-Partial-Birth I was foolish to trust you.
        Here is your man speaking his justification to do what is necessary when a baby, who is now an American citizen, does not come out "limo and dead." Hear him yourself, Jeff Dixon. He is your president and has the vote of your cohort and Madam Mary Rogers.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are foolish, I agree with that.
      - Esther
        
        to trust you
      - Vladimir
        
        We may sin, but we can repent and learn from our mistakes and eventually become as Jesus urged us to be "perfect, even as your Father in Heaven".
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        But god cannot abide sin. In any amount. Why would an all knowing god introduce sin into his universe by the act of creation?
      - Esther
        
        Which god are you asking about the biblical one or the One w/o contradiction who otherwise could possibly exist?
      - Esther
        
        Which god are you asking about, the biblical one or the One w/o contradiction who otherwise — you have agreed — could possibly exist?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The god described in the book of Mormon shows the same contradictions.
      - Esther
        
        I have noticed. As a saint, though, I am not required to believe what is not true and there is always hope that One w/o contradiction does exist. I can hardly see how I can live without one. The need to believe is just solidly there, it cannot be explained, true, yet, nor have I been able to satisfactorily reject it.
      - Esther
        
        The God of the Catholics does exist in the hearts of the people including mine, but the church on the Earth is corrupted, they also have a "Jeff's god" which they have tried to incorporate for the purpose of promoting and protecting gays in the "priesthoods" … Jeff's god does not exist, but God does exist.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        He may exist in their hearts, but that is the only place he exists.
      - Esther
        
        Re: I meant the actual God who is everywhere
      - Vladimir
        
        God cannot tolerate sin, Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, before god created anything, he existed by himself in a completely sinless state. He is all knowing and knows exactly what will happen when he starts to create the univese. Yet, he decides to create the angels even though many will sin and fight him in heaven and he creates people who do nothing but sin.
        If he cannot abide sin, why would he create anything that would result in sin being introduced into his perfect sinless state?
        It cannot be that he needed people to worship him. If he needed that then he was not complete before he created anything. But if he is god, he was always complete and perfect
      - Vladimir
        
        God existing alone in a completely sinless state is your speculation. But what we do know is, God does know exactly what will happen before he begins. We also know that He created, as His spirit children, everyone of us. He gave us "free will" so we can be agents unto ourselves and have the opportunity to "grow up" to be like Him.
        
        We know that there must be "opposition in all things" for this to come to pass, but we also know that He cannot tolerate sin. That is why we are here and He is there.
        
        It is also your speculation that God was always complete and perfect.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not believe any gods exist. Therefore, these are not my speculations. it is what Christians say about their god. If you have a different belief, that does not change what Christians state about their god.
      - Vladimir
        
        I am not responsible for what others believe, nor are you, Jeff Dixon. You asked the questions and I answered according to my understanding.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What sin would have existed before god created anything?
      - Esther
        
        Do you mean God, the real one, and not your nemesis, god, the "biblical god" the one Dawkins wants to own?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Neither one has ever been shown to exist
      - Esther
        
        Even the one Dawkins wants to own?
      - Esther
        
        Regardless of your definition for proof, which I do not think you fully understand, I do know that God exists. Your god, let's call him "Jeff's god", the one fabricated for your purposes of demonstration, does not exist.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I discuss the mythical gods created by the religious.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff Dixon discusses "Jeff's god" of contradiction on a daily basis.
      - Esther
        
        Actually, you act just like you say the god of the OT acts. You actually fired the first shot when you said you do not believe my Father in heaven exists.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You told me many times you did not believe in god either. Were you lying then or now?
      - Esther
        
        No, you are wrong and once again you practice your reductionism (wiki has a good explanation,) I do believe in God, the Holy Father my mother taught me. I do not believe in the god of your contradictions, because you have made him up and he is yours and yours alone, Jeff Dixon (and Glen S)
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not wrong. You stated very clearly that you did not think god existed. Were you lying then or now? Because you are lying.
      - Esther
        
        I am not lying. I like to experiment with ideas and you are very convincing and I trusted you. I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseum. You have my comments from before, most of which you reduce to some unrecognizable idea that you actually re-fabricate and call me a lunatic or worse. I am afraid of you. I do not trust you anymore.
        
        If anything I am rethinking my position on Catholicism and the Reformation. You have scared me so much I want to retreat into a shell and study the works of the bible. You said you know it well. I want to know it well too so I can rebuttal you and people like you. I mean it Jeff. I can't do it now and you of all people know what I am going to be doing shortly. But I will incrementally become efficient to retort your claims.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You either are lying now or lied then. But you did lie.
      - Esther
        
        I experimented with your idea and I discarded it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        One either believes or they do not. It is not an experiment.
      - Esther
        
        When faced with many choices … for a Mormon … one prays about it… you are not interested in the real process therefore I use a generic term
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        When faced with reality you respond with fiction. Got it.
      - Esther
        
        You are an atheist, you do not understand how I derived at the FACT I cannot cutoff my belief in God, in the face of the adversary, that's you!, anymore than you can turn on your belief in God. That is not fiction. It is fact. Stop being so mean.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, I am an atheist. It is a badge of honor. I do not succumb to delusional beliefs about life.
        
        I am not mean, princess. I am the voice of truth.
      - Esther
        
        You are the voice of Hell.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        At this point, I could not care less.
      - Esther
        
        Oh yes, you make the destruction of me your goal, you care about that very much. Your Madam Mary Rogers is loving it, so your must satisfy that beast. She is waiting for you to measure out the "whirlwind" on me, Mr. Big Hollyweird.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        According to you she was banned. You know more about her than I do.
      - Esther
        
        Your memory fails you. Administrators of Disqus notified me of it because she spewed to them and I sent you the information when I received it. Typically you conveniently "forget" the facts. Your debate partners often accuse you of this very thing.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Perhaps my memory does fail me. I have never claimed perfection. But that does not change the reality that I was unaware she was banned. It also does not change the reality that I had forgotten her name.
        It is also probably that I did not see your message. At one point you were sending me 80-100 posts a day. I could not possible keep up with that type of delusional fixation and was deleting messages from this site without reading them.
      - Esther
        
        You are lying. You are an egomaniac. You responded in kind. You knew about the ban your responded then in kind.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, you leave it at the point where you and your Madam have intact integrity and I have none. How characteristic of you, Mr. Big Hollyweird. Just the way you planned.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        if you have no intrigrity left, it is because you engage in senseless and baseless accusations, such as Mary is some kind of madam to me. I have never meet her or talked with her. As usual, you post nonsense.
      - Esther
        
        I stand by my comment.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have no doubt about that. You embrace lies.
      - Esther
        
        No, that's you. I embrace truth.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are so delusional at this point, you have no idea what the truth is.
      - Esther
        
        You have merely expressed your opinion which is not necessarily the truth, TYVM.
      - Esther
        
        You disregarded the "first volley" which was Madam Mary Rogers denial of the Illinois senate statement made by Barack Hussein Obama on getting rid of born alive infants, who are Americans by law, when they did not come out "limp and dead" words of Barack Obama.
      - Esther
        
        You are lying about never having talked to her. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is just one of many lies you tell daily on this site.
      - Esther
        
        No, you are lying again, denying you know her. You told me you did. You mentioned her in the same breath as you mentioned bighoss and their liberalism.
      - Esther
        
        You are on it immediately to protect your angel of deceit. How manly.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Sorry I am not as manly as your new idol Kent. But violence is not part of my game.
      - Esther
        
        You have the nerve to call me complicit in violence.You do not have the right to subjugate anyone. Kent Perry saw you doing that very thing. It is proof that he is exactly right with this incidence of your supporting Rogers/Obama's stance on infanticide. You and Kent Perry have far greater problems. You are looking for a target to vent your hate for him. It is you supporting real murder of Americans in supporting infanticide of babies who are born alive in this country. The platform of the Republican party means to protect these Americans. That is why Mitt Romney lost the election. He was not violent enough for you. Your side that you supported, won. You show your side when you refuse to admit my horror was justified and you stood there so manly, supporting even protecting the views of a killer of children.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the one fawning over him. And I can see why. You love that he wants to punch atheists in the face. That idea excites you beyond belief.
      - Esther
        
        No, you are being ridiculous and entirely wrong. Kent Perry and you have a disagreement I don't even know why or any of the details. I do not follow your conversations like you think I do. I do not agree in the use of violence against anyone. You are wrong. I have no feelings for Kent Perry at all. It is you that I have feelings for, at one time I would do anything for you. I respected you that much. We have over six thousand comments between us on fb and there is no indication at all of what you say. How absurd you are to say I am excited by violence. This is typical of you to turn around something that has no context and never happened. That happened to you and Kent. Kent warned me about you because I supported you.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Esther Jeff Dixon
        
        You disregarded the "first volley" which was Madam Mary Rogers denial of the
        Illinois senate statement made by Barack Hussein Obama on getting rid of born alive infants, who are Americans by law, when they did not come out "limp and dead" words of Barack Obama.
        
        So, what exactly was the first volley?
      - Esther
        
        You coined the term the "first volley"… saying I was being inconsistent towards Madam Mary Rogers. I told you actually it was the argument I had with her on whether Obama agreed with infanticide… just prior to your interjection … the true "first volley" which you failed to investigate.
        
        The "first shot" has to do with your problem of telling me my God does not exist.
        
        Those two arguments are entirely different.
        
        But of course I would likely not care a bit if babies were being slaughtered either if I did not believe in God. I like having a God. He keeps me grounded. I like having commandments and covenants. Also, my children like me better — they hated my decision to leave the Catholic church, they were just used to my being in that religion as so many of our family are still today. My kids did not like my joining the Mormon church, but they know better now. I am a much happier camper since I did.
      - Esther
        
        What do you think of Obama's statement? You do not seem to have much reaction to dead Americans.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am against infanticide. I have said that before.
      - Esther
        
        Your support of your liberal Madam Mary Rogers demonstrates otherwise. You showed absolute no support of me, in fact the opposite. If you knew what the argument had been about you would have supported me not her. Because it was about whether he was for infanticide. And now you make the claim you are against it.
        
        Go ahead. Your turn. She is listening with bated breath.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        My comment said nothing pro or con about the topic, you blithering loon.
      - Esther
        
        Yes you did, it was all about her and you called me inconsistent when she was the inconsistent one. That was the topic. You never mentioned a word to her… just gave her the front row seat to watch as you destroy me. You and your madam mary rogers are blithering loons. You are because you called me inconsistent when I was not and you had no way to know I was right because you would not investigate. She is because she would support a man who would kill a newborn American who survived the most dangerous passage of their tiny life but she denied it even after hearing him say it out of his own mouth.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        My comment was about her views on Obama, not infanticide. But I have come to realize you have zero ability to grasp logic or reason.
      - Esther
        
        You chime in to the middle of a conversation you had no idea even to this day what it was all about. It was just the perfect opportunity to destroy me, especially since I had been expressing my politics online to various liberals. That is when I realized you are at heart, a liberal, because your attitude toward me became vicious online right at that time. You and "the Dawkins of the world" (as you coined yourselves) should think carefully through just why you all have decided to kill me as soon as possible. You have no moral compass. Sorry, your Lucy does not cut it. My logic is perfectly fine. You don't intimidate me anymore. Your logic stinks to high heaven.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, you supported her position by supporting her. You know my politics. You did state your position very clearly. You crucified me during your destructive process of supporting her by making up stories on fb. That was your purpose. Now I know is to add to your egocentric palate to introduce at your atheists get-togethers. You are the person who is crass.
      - Esther
        
        And you called Despeville "loon" many times.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes I did. He is also a boor and a bore.
      - Esther
        
        He was more to you than that. You wrote him to tell him that you missed your lively interchanges which an observer could see was psychotic.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I told him once that I did not miss him. Once again you misread what is written.
      - Esther
        
        Lol, sure, its always me, the Mormon. Makes good satire doesn't it… which is needed for your Hollyweird crowd.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It pretty much is always you. You are the one lying and misrepresenting what was said.
      - Esther
        
        No, you are the one mining things, things that will be fun, satirical things, for your next atheist party. Wink wink.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff does not hear you. He does not want to hear you. He is adamant. He does not want any connection to what he calls the God delusion and what he is doing is setting a trap in case new people some on the site so that he will be able to cripple anyone's argument that does not cohere with his own.
      - Glen S
        
        And how is this any different from yourself? On this thread alone you have attempted to smear, craigmayberry, bighoss, evermyrtle, pastor dwayne, courier du bois, and petroskahn.
        
        I have said this before. I will say it again. It is you who is claiming adamantly that Mormonism is the "restored church." Then you attack all those who disagree with you, whether it be a disagreement about faith or politics. When someone comes on this and the other sites you do this on and reads your attacks, what are the going to say? (Rhetorical question) If they are not "up to speed" on the truth that LDS is an extra-Biblical faith, they are going to equate your words with LDS and make the connection between LDS and Christianity. They will then go away discouraged because they will think to themselves that if this is how Christians behave they want nothing to do with it.
        
        So I again ask the question, how are you any different from Jeff?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am funnier.
      - Glen S
        
        Yes, that is most certainly true.
      - Esther
        
        Glen S: I do not know how long you have posted here, how far back you have searched the record, but I know my experience here with the very people you listed and for the sole purpose of protecting myself of truly innocuous behavior individually towards me because I am Mormon, thus I have grown a protective shell around myself in order to stand up for myself. You have not met Despeville, Joe Anziloitti is courier du bois, not seen "the best" of bighoss, pastor dwayne, evermyrtle (yes, evertmytle), petroskhan, or in fact Jeff, (who is craigmayberry? I do not know, he may be someone who changed his pen name.) You have not met them in regard to me personally, except maybe Jeff. Only because I was ignorant enough to tell everyone I am a member of the Mormon church when first coming on this forum, I was immediately and have been constantly viciously criticized with their anti-Mormon garbage, plentiful on the web, and also using non-scriptural Mormon literature that the attacker believes is my personal beliefs, which it is 99.9% of the time, not. I thought nothing of divulging the fact that of my faith when I first came on here, I see nothing wrong with having a respect for another family history of Christ (in the Book of Mormon,) but certainly I was not so accorded. One person you missed, Mary Rogers, a cohort of bighoss (both maniac liberal Democrats,) and I call a colleague, a Madam of Jeff Dixon, in fact was so politically vicious that she is banned. How am I different from Jeff Dixon? The difference is: I believe in a gracious Father in Heaven. I know my Father expects me to not be their doormat. Jeff on the other hand uses me as his doormat. If you read the conversation between Vladimir and Jeff you will see that Jeff is leading Vlad on as though he is accepting but just curious, and acts as though he respects him as another human being. I know Jeff Dixon well enough that there is nothing to deter him from destruction of Vladimir, his faith and his person, once he convinces Vlad that he is thoughtful and kind, and is really a brother trying to help. Jeff Dixon is a man of potential whom I had admired, who read Dawkins and Sam Harris. yet he takes the most simplistic approach from the concepts of non-beliefs (reductionism we call it in philosophy) to belittle others. I do not expect he will do anything else. He has never demonstrated over these many months that he would. Note Jeff's method with Keyboardshark. Same thing. I have seen him do it time and time again, Have you followed his arguments on creativerevolution.org. Same thing. cf. http://creationrevolution.com/2013/02/is-the-god-of-the-old-testament-a-moral-monster-part-1/#comment-15998 031913
        
        After Zionica, my entire concept of religion has changed. I grew up in a community of a single religion, Catholic. We were never taught to defend it because there was never any opposition. It was a comfortable place to be up through the first several years of my marriage. The priest who had been the parish priest for years had no opinion on how to save marriages, at all. My husband did not want children, was likely a victim of PTS syndrome, that no one knew about until much later when the medical community actually named the condition, too late for my marriage, which we had committed until death do us part. As a very young man he served in the NK conflict. Whoever said ignorance is bliss is wrong about that. Later, I could not fathom the role of Pope Pius as a man of Catholic church authority who supported Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Jesus said "'Forgive them, for they know not what they do." I see that kind of hypocrisy all around. I am new to the Mormon church. I like the family's involvement. I see it as we have no authority on Earth other than to follow the examples of Jesus Christ and therefore, I don't see infallible men at the helm. There are men who hold callings according to the same as found in the bible, most notably the priesthoods of Aaron and Melchizedek They are volunteers, unpaid, ministers in the church with different responsibilities. This organizational structure is more reasonable to me than that of Catholics. Also, I have freedom to explore wherever I will, about everything, including technology and medicine, without the boundaries I see against things like medicine, where the atheists point to the idiocy of those who deny life-giving medicines to their children because of their faith-healing. I mention this because Jeff Dixon has just within the last few days indicated he will be reading Sam Harris' new book, LYING, upon which Harris uses that illustration to broadly discount religious delusion. I have a long list of Reformed bookstore texts which I have only had the time to use as reference books. I am trained in philosophy of religions so I am not intimidated by the subject, although I have little time to study the way I want to. I left teaching last year because I had a severe case of pneumonia brought on by my job in university level teaching chemistry laboratories. While recuperating I discovered Zionica, probably because I buy reformed textbooks and the bookstore has my email. The links just began showing up in my inbox. I ignored them for a long time until I was bed-ridden with pneumonia, at first, approx. May 2012, last May. Since then I have had three medical emergencies, including one "self-inflicted." Jeff Dixon has made it his duty to expose all he knows about the latter one. Don't you know? He told everyone on Zionica what I thought was confidential to a "nice guy." He knows a lot about my science and my official complete birth name. I am horrified that he drops more information on me as time goes by in an effort to marginalize me in public. There is nothing I have done to deserve his behavior other than to trust him, so I gladly warn others. No, I am not "like" him although I once deeply respected him.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You really can not restrain yourself from lying, can you?
        
        You fired the first shot. You are the one who decided to attack me and slander me. I merely responded in kind.
      - Esther
        
        You slandered me unmercifully in your high regard for liberalism. Tell me how different should I have handled your deceit? What advice do you have for your grown children?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You fired the first volley. I merely responded in kind. I had no idea you were so mentally unstable when we first started chatting.
      - Esther
        
        You did not answer Jeff: How different should I have handled your deceit?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You should not have fired a volley for my comment. I merely said I thought you were being unreasonable. That was hardly offering deceit. It was offering an opinion.
      - Esther
        
        You now downplay your original deceit. In typical Jeff Dixon strategy.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it merely expresses an opinion. That thing you despise.
      - Esther
        
        Said Jeff Dixon once more in self-exultation.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I merely offer it as fact. Another thing you despise.
      - Esther
        
        According only to Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Your every reply expresses disdain for people who offer opinions that you disagree with.
      - Esther
        
        Certainly for the Jeff Dixon I now see clearly as a fraud.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Good, I prefer that to your insipid comments about loving me which I asked you repeatedly to stop saying.
      - Esther
        
        That is, Jesus Christ loves you Jeff Dixon. Tsk tsk you mustn't forget the context.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Tsk, tsk, I know the context. You saying you loved me is not saying Jesus loves me. My telling you to stop and you saying you would try but could not promise to stop saying you loved me is not saying Jesus loves me. You are a bigger loon than I could imagine.
      - Esther
        
        No, No Jeff Dixon. You were told about Jesus Christ "New" commandment… "New" because it is not explicit in the original ones. It is "Love one another as I have loved you" ~ Jesus Christ said before he was crucified. You were sent the text of a song we sing in church by the same name. Do you really think that I would love anyone without Christ being there, at my helm? Just because you do not believe in Him does not mean He does not exist, or that others believe He does not exist! We live our faith. We do not just talk about it. If you think you understand Mormons, I am here to tell you that you haven't a clue, because you do not want a clue. You feign interest to get material for you atheist parties.
        
        Btw, I told you that my three brothers were altar boys in our little Catholic church and they loved the experience!!! My husband was also an altar boy in another town… however my husband was like a clam when my brothers told their great experiences with the priest we called Father … evidently my husband may have been, I would not doubt it, given he was hush, hush about his life period. Ny brothers a good men and good fathers and there is no hint they suffered as others did. I have told you this, sharing stories like this before with you as though you are a good friend. I see now you are not a good friend but a person mining stories for your next big atheist party, so you can tell your funny stories and be the hit of the party. Here on Zionica is where you get your material.
      - Esther
        
        Wrong, once again.
      - Esther
        
        The first "volley" as you call it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YUkbuhXzbvI that is the evidence against your cohort Madam Mary Rogers and Bighoss. that started the entire filth you have caused to be posted on these forums to cause me to be marginalized and if at all possible to be deleted.
        .
        Note the video carefully. That is the evidence you would not look up to see that I had a valid argument against the liberal baby killer you defended, your Madam Mary Rogers. She vigorously defended ObamaCare also. It turns out all the information needed to carry forth the murders are in that package… 'Let us pass the bill so we can find out what it in it.' http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/10/video-of-the-week-we-have-to-pass-the-bill-so-you-can-find-out-what-is-in-it/ That same hypocrisy is what is found in her post shortly thereafter in a companion forum to zionica… on the subject of some invitation she received to join a church then to find out what is in it. Look it up Jeff Dixon it is also in the public record where she spurned the invitation that she would not join a church first to find out what is in it… ha… that pastor knew what he was dealing with and he exposed her.
        
        .
        Btw, Jeff Dixon, that latter incidence of coming across that post was a prayer answered, Because at the same time you were in the process of doing your liberal duty of destroying me,
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You destroy yourself everytime you post more nonsense,
      - Esther
        
        I am protected by my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What liberalism?
      - Esther
        
        funny guy, you know what liberal stances you take. Why ask of whom you have implied are the mentally incapable?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I don't think gays should be persecuted. Sue me.
      - Esther
        
        You do know that you are a liberal. Who is the liar? You imply I want to hurt people. I have no desire to sue you over any issue. That is your business, but you should stop falsifying information to others where you stand politically. You are not talking to a person who ever thinks that way, thought you are in the litigious capital of the world probably.
        
        http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-a-budget/186667-most-litigious-nation-in-the-world Here is your man Obama whom you helped to elect.
        
        California is one of the top five in the US and the US is #1 in the world… so I can see your preoccupation with being sued, but I have no interest in doing so whatsoever. http://winfographics.com/post/10130026829/america-the-lawsuit-capital-of-the-world-infographic 3/11/13
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Your culture helped elect Obama. I told you if Romney did not go on the attack, he would lose. You said it was better to lose then to be negative or something to that effect. Well, guess what princess, he lost. Because he would not attack Obama. Congratulations, you got your wish. Four more years of Obama because Romney would not attack. This is what your culture achieved, not mine.
      - Esther
        
        You supported liberalism all the way. The "life" of the party, Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Sorry princess, it was your group that refused to confront Obama. He is your president. Enjoy.
      - Esther
        
        Don't call me that.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I stopped being concerned about your feelings when you called me a child molester. Face it princess, you are reaping the whirlwind. There is nothing off limits at this point. Enjoy the ride.
      - Esther
        
        No, I never called you that. You said I called you that. there is a difference.
        .
        You stopped being concerned about my feelings when I criticized your Madam Mary Rogers and I refused to take it back.
        .
        You said she was consistent. I showed you she was not. She lied about the fact Obama supported infanticide. She presented the cleaned up voting record from wikipedia online and demanded I accept. You did not even know the issue but you blamed me for hurting her. I showed her the video of Obama claiming there should be physicians in the room who made sure the child born alive would be handled if the child did not "come out limp and dead." I will not back down from standing aqainst this atrocity.
        .
        You say you stand for truth. Stand for the child who is born alive. That child is an American, just the same as you or I. Obama and the woman Mary Rogers support this atrocity.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Nonsense, you stated you feared for the friends of my daughter and the demands I would make of them. You are a sick person.
        
        Mary is a fan of Obama. That is why I said she was consistent. Her actions were consistent with what she wants to be true. I never said I thought she was right. But you get too caught up in your emotions to think straight.
      - Esther
        
        In your Madam's view, I know you do everything right to ignore the facts so I am sure you and she will be very happy. She is banned but I have no doubt your valiant efforts to protect "her integrity" will be your reward.
        
        I do worry about young women around you, I have good reason.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you have hurt feelings, brought on by your attacks against me, nothing else. But your campaign of lies continues unabated.
      - Esther
        
        You continue to ignore the "first volley." As your debate opponents have pointed out on a regular basis, you do ignore facts, to deliver your final crushing blow.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have always stated i was an atheist and did not believe god existed. You chatted with me for weeks fully aware of that. If I fired the first volley by stating your god exists, then why were you not demanding that I apologize then?
        It is because you did not care about my thoughts until you decided your feelings were hurt. Too bad princess, as usual your "logic" falls apart when discussed. .
      - Esther
        
        You continue to ignore the first volley: The infanticide support by Barak Obama on video, which your Madam Mary Rogers denied.
        
        I fully realize the issues pointed out by your debate opponents in your nonsense comments about your self-righteous so-called justice.
      - Esther
        
        You are changing the subject, honey. You said above " If I fired the first volley by stating your god exists, then why were you not demanding that I apologize then?" This is your sentence. It doesn't make sense. what does this have to do with anything, since:
        
        1. You made it clear that your disbelief in God was isolated from the things that people normally associates with atheists.
        
        2. The first "volley" as you call it was completely ignored by you though I repeatedly asked you to look at the crux of the argument you were assessing in her favor. You never did, and you are not still.
      - Esther
        
        You like bringing into this, my "feelings," because you think that is my weakness and you can easily win for your Madam on that basis. What you do not understand Is I can easily set aside my "feelings" for the facts. The fact is you neglected to recognize the denialism of your liberal partner.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I bring up your feelings because they are the sole basis for your senseless and baseless accusations. I don't know Mary, never met her and in fact, had forgotten her name which I mentioned to you before as well. You have no facts on your side. You do not even understand the word.
      - Esther
        
        See Jeff, see Jeff make up more stories: I remember distinctly you told me she and bighoss are liberal that you have talked to them. My memory is better than you think. I also remember you have never acknowledged the video on Obama in the Illinois senate that your Madam Mary Rogers denied exists… you know, the "first volley" you continue to ignore.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course they are liberal. Their comments make that self evident.
        By talking, I mean on the phone or some other personal communication. Afterall, if she is my "madam", surely I would be interacting with her, now wouldn't I? Yes, there were a few exchanges on here. Which mostly were my asking her why she supported Obama.
        Your lunacy continues to amaze me.
      - Esther
        
        I have no wish to discuss your personal life with a supporter of infanticide. The point is you lied and you now admit it.
        
        What you have not acknowledged is the "first volley" that she denied that Barack Obama supported infanticide and submitted a cleaned wiki record of his voting record which dismissed the fact of that support.
        
        You owe me a public apology.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Loon, you are the only person I have ever talked with from this site, a fact I regret tremendously. Exchanging a comment with someone on here is not talking with them.
        If you want to get real, you are the only person here who could qualify as my madam.
      - Esther
        
        You did not respond to the fact of infanticide and the denial of it as the point of "first volley." That is the reason for your realization of my uncontrolled fanatic response that you do not and will never understand. You are inhumane.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am completely human. You are unhinged, however.
      - Esther
        
        I know you are human… that is not the same as being humane… which you are not on the abortion front. How do you consider yourself humane when you support the concept of killing babies who have survived abortion, and thus are Americans, just like you?
      - Esther
        
        I have regrets also. My main one is not realizing that you have a mind block about certain things about life for which you apparently have little respect. The other thing I regret was getting so angry with you when you made up things about me I said things I should not have said, I was blinded with rage against you for the things you were saying. Once you realized how you could so easily hurt me, you never stopped and you are still doing it. No, I have never plotted against anyone with you as you and your Madam Mary Rogers and Bighoss has of me. I do not qualify for that nefarious title of being your madam.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, then neither does Mary Roberts who I have never met before.
        
        I did not make up anything about you. You did everything I stated. I also wish I had never started talking with you. I should have known you were insane when you said you loved me repeatedly, even though we had never met and even though I asked you to stop many times.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, you did know Madam Mary Rogers and of course her colleague Bighoss.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are aware that your god frowns upon lying?????
      - Esther
        
        I am aware you criticize someone who is good intentioned whom you do not know but whom you would destroy. But again you are an atheist. I think either you did not see that conversation they had about me and you are ashamed that you caused so much defamation or you did read it and it delighted you greatly, as it was part of yours and their plans.
        
        You are the liar.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course I am an atheist. It is not a secret. And you are a Mormon, who the traditional Christians think are going to hell. But between the two of us, I am the only one being truthful.
      - Esther
        
        To: atheist and his club members:
        You like to know I will be destroyed one way or another. The ultimate irony is you have made your own rules of your pack and those rules fit in such a way if you cannot control a woman who knows you well, you will destroy her. You have lied about me. So now you can count the people who say they follow Jesus Christ, yet instead follow you, if what you say is right, you indeed have those on your side. Sound familiar atheist? Sounds very familiar to me. The Lord Jesus Christ in the name of God the Father, alone will judge me, not your friends who say they follow Christ and in fact do not, because if they agree with you then they are agreeing with the godless liar, the father of lies.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You ask if it sounds familiar? It barely sounds coherent.
      - Esther
        
        It is. You cannot acknowledge truth. You are an atheist. No moral compass.
      - Esther
        
        I meant you are destroying or attempting to destroy someone who has good intentions but you are an atheist so I surmise it is to be expected expected. Sharing a little fun with Glen S just shows that you will recruit anyone to destroy others. You have tried to do the same with Petroskhan. And you want me to accept your lying story about Madam Mary Rogers and Bighoss. You are completely daff.
        
        By the way, I know how Muslims and India Indians treat women, and the latter is your employer. It alone tells me "where you are at" in the human development phase of humanity. I am sure you all have a lot in common where women are concerned. I also know how accepting thy are of atheists.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are not good intentioned. You create imaginary issues and then lie and smear the people who call you on it.
        
        So I am not allowed to have some fun on here?
      - Esther
        
        You are not the judge of my intentions. You have no moral compass, thus you lie at will. Those two facts are not imaginary. We both know I have good intentions,but without you having a moral compass, I am just fodder for your satire. No longer do I trust you however so it is highly unlikely you should expect any more good intensions from me. You deny issues that you create. "smear the people" ?? What you should say is I call you on lies and smears you make about me.
        .
        Your friends expect you to entertain them somehow so I know that is the purpose of Zionica for you in your life. Fun for you now is destroying me and others instead of engaging them honestly. You feign interest in what people have to say and then you try to destroy them (remember imputation which I introduced to you?) That is one early example of good intentions but to you, with no moral compass, probably became proof positive I would be your victim.
      - Esther
        
        Btw, I am just one of how many people you have intimidated, who no longer comment on Zionica because of your crass behavior? Do you know?
      - Esther
        
        The point is, atheist, you have no moral compass which you have also made clear to Zionica. You are indeed a liar, and you believe there are no consequences, you have no moral imperative to resist lying. For you, that is where the fun is, to destroy others. That is also quite clear on Zionica.
      - Esther
        
        I am not insane, you are an atheist. Thar's all.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Then you told an atheist that you loved him.
      - Esther
        
        In the name of Christ every time. But again, you are an atheist.
      - Esther
        
        I repeat: You are still doing it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That is a nice delusional view of what occurred.
        
        I stopped talking with you when you flipped out for a mild criticism of saying you were not being fair to Mary. Horrors.
      - Esther
        
        But again, you are an atheist. I beg your audience to take into account my story.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Why? Because an atheist could never be truthful? rotflmao. You have been lying for months now because you are embarrassed.
      - Esther
        
        You have lied about me. No, I believe there are people on Zionica who believe you are a fun guy and do not care what you believe or do not believe. To me, you are an atheist and I know you lie. You have no moral compass. You once again show your need for satire, the perfect addition to your palate of lies and stories you can share with your friends who are atheist or your Christian allies who believe you have ethics, which you do not.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Besides, you had several sexual conversations with me. If anyone is my madam, it is you.
      - Esther
        
        You only wish I qualify. You just like trashing me because I refuse to deny my God.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Good luck with that
      - Esther
        
        I stopped at the point it would require a marriage certificate… Remember that one?
      - Esther
        
        No, Jeff Dixon, she is. You, her and Bighoss, are the "secret combinations" that we are warned about. As one very astute observer has noted: You do not play well with others.
      - Esther
        
        Please do not call me princess.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What would you prefer, psycho or loon?
      - Esther
        
        It never has mattered to you to so denigrate. I do not expect you to follow through with any implied respect.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not respect liars.
      - Esther
        
        You do not respect people who won't let you get away with lying about them. You are worried about what your Madam Mary Rogers will think of you if you do not deliver the prize she so wishes.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the only one who discusses her. Show one positive comment I have made about her besides saying I thought she was consistent. The only other thing I have said about her is that I don't know her. But, as usual, your fixation with nonsense keeps you posting about her.
      - Esther
        
        Why would I discuss your egomania with blaming me for something a person who would commit and deny infanticide? You are truly sick if you think I will not defend myself. You will not seek out that evidence but you want me to waste my life on your junk science and politics.
      - Esther
        
        Her presence is implicit in the entire argument due to, as you call it, the "first volley" which you ignore.
      - Schawminator
        
        Well you do sort of look like a child molester.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Really? What exactly do they look like? Afterall, I am not wearing a priests garb.
      - Schawminator
        
        Look into the mirror, farest of all.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I see. So, having never met me or knowing anything about me, you decided the "Christian" approach was to accuse me of being a child molester. rotflmao
      - Schawminator
        
        No decision by me. I only said you should look in the mirror for your answer. never said you were only suggested you look like one.
        Now, I will say you do have a reading comprehension problem.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, you were very clear. Trying to dodge your comment now is silly. But I am used to Christians acting like you. It is very common.
      - Schawminator
        
        I was right about your reading skills. Jesus was a Jew and me to.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You have never stated you were a Jew for me to have read. I see critical thinking skills are lagging for you as well.
      - Schawminator
        
        Never stated I was a Christian either. Your assumptions again oh clueless one. You read into what is written to suit your whatever.
      - Esther
        
        You supported liberalism, probably all over at your parties.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        At my tea parties? lol.
      - Schawminator
        
        FYI; Obama is the President of only the useful idiots untl they become useless.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        very true
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course you want to hurt people. Your posts are very specific about that. The reality, though, is that you cannot hurt anyone. Sorry, princess, you are without any power.
      - Esther
        
        That is what you do.
      - Schawminator
        
        Leave this ignorant deviant self serviving and degenerate alone, He is a lost soul never to seek salvation. Don’t play in his mental dirt.
      - Glen S
        
        So, point of inquiry: if Jeff's excuse for his actions is that he is "self serving and degenerate," what is Esther's or yours? Have your read some of the garbage she puts out?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That is not my excuse. Esther is lying about me.
      - Schawminator
        
        Nice try, you are good at this.
      - Glen S
        
        Nice try? Good at what? I simply asked what Esther's excuse for being a jerk is. I expect nothing more or less from Jeff. But when an individual repeatedly states that her belief system is better than others, is it not appropriate to hold that person to a higher standard?
      - Schawminator
        
        WoW! You should try being happy once in a while. Anyhow you are great at baiting for the argument.
      - Glen S
        
        The above is a simple question. Try answering it.
      - Esther
        
        Try answering the simple questions I have posed to you.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Why do you expect me to be a jerk? In what way am I a jerk? My comments to Esther? She has been lying about me for months now and I have no tolerance for someone acting that badly towards me.
      - Esther
        
        You expect nothing of Jeff. He is a bystander enjoying your subtle attacks on me and now upon others.
      - Glen S
        
        That's right! I expect nothing of Jeff. You on the, on the other hand, have essentially claimed that you are better than he (or anyone else who points our the continued fallacies of your comments). So, your behavior becomes suspect.
        
        His inane comments are expected. Yours are, well, childish and unbecoming.
      - Esther
        
        I am not here for the intention of impressing anyone, so while I am grateful for your opinion of my behavior, it will not deter me. My standards are high, though they are not understood by practically everyone on this forum. Call me childish, I intend to certainly remain a child of God, I have never been here to impress anyone. I am here to understand what my Lord wants of me in relation to the world and I hope what His intentions are for me.
        
        Many people on here expect me to be a great orator because I have a Ph.D. That is their fallacy, not mine. If you look it up you will find inordinate expectations. In fact badgering on a continual basis.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is expected that someone who claims to have a PhD in Chemistry should be able to understand and express why chemical dating methods are reliable and consistent. That you do not merely shows your claims have little foundation. That or you are a very poor Chemist.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You can expect less. I will continue to provide more.
      - Glen S
        
        Evidence to the contrary not withstanding.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Your inability to understand it does not mean much.
      - Esther
        
        Btw, I am no jerk. Schawminator is a smart man. He will see that inspite of your lobby to assure otherwise.
      - Glen S
        
        My own counsel with I keep as to who is or isn't a jerk.
      - Esther
        
        Excuse me Glen S. You are a gossiper. In that sense you have a way to go for telling others about who is better than others. You seem to glorify yourself in that task. Obviously you are letting Jeff alone and targeting me. That is very suspicious to me. I know that you have delighted him in your attitude towards me. What is you religious affiliation? I have been honest with you and find you to to be much less so. Just because people are honest about who they are and what they have done… (now I am harkening back to my original days. starting 8 months ago, online interacting with people in Zionica) … does not mean they are to be abused by you, which I see you are doing to me or anyone else as you are doing here. Go see the original tasks taken up to destroy me just because of my faith. Individuals involved are Despeville, Joe Anzolotti, Dionisius3, Pastor Dwayne and Bighoss, Now Jeff Dixon is using those attitudes to meter out criticisms to me, declaring "what others think about me" to justify his attacks. I thought you were a bystander, but here in your comment to Schwaminator, I am thinking, wait a minute, what is that man doing?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        He merely sees the garbage you post and is calling you out on it.
      - Esther
        
        Well then you and he hit it off quite well. He has not addressed your lies so you must be delighted. I am a novice at exposing uncouth people like you, unstudied of Hollywierd and Bollywood as you are an expert. Compared to my abilities to defend myself you must be an expert.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have not been lying, while you have lied repeatedly. He probably can tell the difference.
      - Esther
        
        You just keep at it, and expect me to just shut up. I have not lied. I have told the truth about you. Sure, your buddy can tell that you are a load of fun by letting you go at me, that you will laugh when he says laugh. Secret combinations, we are warned about those, and you know all about how to develop them. I alone must defend myself, because you are the only one who knows the truth, and no one will go against you, the seasoned atheist, who has no moral compass. You might turn on them. You know no one can support the woman. In your society that is unheard of, you just want me to shut up. I WILL CONTINUE TO DEFEND MYSELF.
        
        Standing for Something by President Gordon b. Hinckley (read it and weep. As long as you post lies, I will post rebuttals until the day I die, you are crazy to think I will do otherwise. There is One who is above you atheist, His name is Jesus Christ. We do not belong to your group. We belong to Jesus Christ.)
      - Esther
        
        I am getting it from all sides. There is a quote, one of my all time favorites:
        
        “It is my hope and my belief that the Lord never permits the light of faith wholly to be extinguished in any human heart, however faint the light may glow. The Lord has provided that there shall still be there a spark which, with teaching, with the spirit of righteousness, with love, with tenderness, with example, with living the Gospel, shall brighten and glow again, however darkened the mind may have been. And if we shall fail so to reach those among us of our own whose faith has dwindled low, we shall fail in one of the main things which the Lord expects at our hands” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1936, p. 114). J. Ruben Clark https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/10/the-spark-of-faith?lang=eng
        
        Are you a religious man? I believe you are and I have followed your posts for a long time now. I believe you have a true handle on many situations that concern us as Americans. Re: Jeff Dixon: Yes, he I am attracted to Jeff Dixon and am caught up in some respects to a great degree. We had a chat on FB amounting to over 6000 comments.I know he is a good man – actually a humanist and a single parent, also his Dad lives with him. He said so in a post I saw last year when I first came online its when I decided to request friendship with him on FB, What a disaster that turned out to be, but I still care a lot about him. I am a "member missionary" and yes Glen is right we did have seriously bad interactions on Zionica. I am sorry for that but I am still a member missionary and if I have learned nothing else, it is to not give up on another human being. How can I when I know so much about him? Please tell me.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Again with bearing false witness? Pretty sure your lord frowns on that.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the liar. You have been lying about me for months now.
      - Esther
        
        I have been responding to your lies about me. You are the practiced atheist and blogger so I expect you will win the game but my God and the people here will know I did not falter in my efforts to defend myself. I am not one of those babies in yours or your liberal madam mary rogers' womb that you can abort as you do babies at will even after being born alive. You have already won in certain respects since you have provided great entertainment for her and your colleague bighoss. That will make great satire for your next meeting.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is not a game. I am sure you consider it as such since you have no regard for the truth.
      - Esther
        
        I have high regard for the truth. It is your lies that need rebuttal. You keep doing it. You think I should accept your assessment that what you do, without morals and with a surety that I am the bad one, when it is you without morals and is thus, the bad one. I notice you have to carry it on from one article forum to another, also. You are truly crass.
      - Esther
        
        You turned it in to one. You are truly crass. You and Madam M R will have a blast, it will be so much fun for you, think of the satire, you will be the life of the party, you can tell all those FB things that you will be free to tell because I won't be there to defend myself.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No one care about your official complete birth name. Just another delusional fantasy you have created.
      - Esther
        
        What you think of me is not news to me. You would love to see me eliminated. That is quite clear. Not only abortions suit you fine. You and your Madam Mary Rogers completely agree. Thus, your children and your father are in greater danger living with you. It seems likely to me you fail to get your father the care he needs. That would not surprise me in the least. You are no republic conservative. You are its antithesis.
      - Glen S
        
        While you have my sympathy, this is exactly the kind of personal information you never divulge in the company of individuals whom you don't know you can trust.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you for your confirmation, although your warning is after the fact It is very appreciated. Esther is not my real name. I just love the book of Esther. I had to change my name b/c of the insults to my real professional name. I was embarrassed, for them also, but I was afraid someone I know would see those insults to my name and I teach locally. Also, I attend large reformed seminary classes nearby and I believe someone there or from their bookstore, submitted their list of students to Zionica. Everyone I named above, except for one person, knows my real name. I never ever thought people could be so offensive talking religion, but I had never commented before, and followed suit. I know I need to cut it out and take your advice seriously.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Why would she have your sympathy? She lies about every encounter she experiences. You have stated yourself that she attempts to smear people. That is her MO. She wants sympathy because she craves people accepting her. She believes sympathy will offer that.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        lol, I am craigmayberry????? Too funny.
      - Esther
        
        Note: there is a comma there to indicate the next person in fact a sentence where I indicate I do not know who that person is; did you read the entire sentence? There is a demarcation, same as I used among the rest of the group: a comma! I should have written "and" after your name. No big deal to me. I am glad you got a tickle at one part of my post.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course I hear him. I am merely showing where he is wrong.
      - Esther
        
        You are a reductionist who does not understand the meaning of any person's religion, but you have feelings obviously if for no reason other than Sam Harris acknowledges such occurrences…as long as you deny such to others how can you expect to understand. I think you do not want others to have a precious something they treasure. It is permitted only to atheists and liberals, like yourself.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I am a realist.
      - Esther
        
        Philosophically you are a realist. Analytically, you are a reductionist. You employ reduction freely in your arguments. It is the twisting motion that I see you doing to get your opponents entire idea (at least you think so) into one brief, cutting few words. Sam doesn't do that, but Dawkins does.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What I am saying is that if god allows people to make their own decisions, then he is not in control of everything. Therefore, he is not all powerful, Therefore he is not all knowing. Therefore, the concept of the biblical god is false.
      - Bighoss
        
        There it is–Vlad's admission to the scandalous Mormon false doctrine of "progression" that teaches a human male can achieve a status equal to God Himself.
      - Esther
        
        Never did Vlad say "status equal to", BigCreep For someone who supposedly studies the greats you cannot even decipher English
      - Vladimir
        
        No Bighoss, you still can't get it. We will never be equal to our Heavenly Father. He wants us to become like He is, just as you want your children to grow up to be like you are, happy productive adults. But while He can help us become like He is and do everything that He is doing now, we will never equal what He has already accomplished and what He continues to accomplish. We will always be the children of our Father, whom we will love, honor and serve forever.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Did this god have a creator? Is there a god more advanced than he is?
      - Vladimir
        
        I don't know of any information revealed to us that would confirm that. However, I, personally don't rule that out. Luckily that knowledge is not necessary for me to achieve eternal life and I'm busy enough with those things that are.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Then the biblical god would not be the creator all things if there is a god above him. Have you really thought out your position on this issue?
      - Esther
        
        Where is your criticism of atheism? I just want to see that great intellectual exposition.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No you don't. You merely want a chance to pretend to criticize someone else instead of being the whipping child on this site.
      - Esther
        
        I want to hear what he has to say about your religion, Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Atheists do not have a religion.
      - Esther
        
        Tell that to the attendees of the Church of Atheism: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/929158/thumbs/r-ATHESIT-CHURCH-large570.jpg?6
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You mean the people who were joking about religion???????
      - Esther
        
        Atheists do have a religion. They are "the Dawkins of the world" honey. Watch out, you seem to be a lot like them.
      - Esther
        
        You believe you can diminish everyone on this board, and then just call it "joking about religion"
        
        Galatians 6:7 King James Bible
        Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Atheism is not a religion. You hope for a chance to strike a blow.
      - Esther
        
        I am a member missionary, as all Mormons are and when we are attacked I want to know why. Bighoss is a major critic of my religion, a colleague of you and Madam Mary Rogers as well. You can bet I want to know what he has to say about your religion. I have been his target multiple times from day one on this forum as you stood by and watched Despeville, Joe Anzolotti, Dionisius3, and Bighoss make mincemeat of me because of my religion. I did not know the depth of their hate until they already knew all about me.I thought it was innocent to simply tell people who I am and I answered all questions. I came in using my real name. Was I wrong!!!!
        
        You are in a religions sect, in fact, you are "a Dawkins of the world" I sent you the exact quote where you used that phrase.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Despeville, Joe Anzolotti, Dionisius3, and Bighoss have all attacked me as well, loon.
      - Esther
        
        Well now you have grown your own base of men who will help you attack me. Glen S, Petroskhan, Dave, Chris, who else? I guess I will see. I am sure you have several that are just enjoying the show you put on for them to degrade me to the maximum you can. You must be so proud.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I am not asking why he does not use force. I am asking why he is considered all powerful since there are things he does not control.
      - Esther
        
        I thought I explained this: God does not impose restrictions. He does not want to control. It is in fact the satanic thing to do is control. He would not like restrictions so he does not impose any… we have choice … and also, the consequences of our choices, because he does give us rules. We are free to choose either path. Another aspect of choice is making covenants.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You offered your opinion about the topic, but it does not explain away the problem.
      - Esther
        
        When one feels they are being controlled, it is satanic, not godly. Simply. that is a basic tenet of the saints. The problem of proof of a deity is certainly daunting and very easy to ignore. :) One would think if He does exist, someone I know would have seen Him.
      - Esther
        
        Of course you are the "truth-teller" and we are "running on denialism" so Mr.Atheist, you tell me or must I kiss Madam Mary Rogers ass so I can live a good life and all praise to your Madam for the truth. It doesn't matter what the denialists are saying because only what Mr. Atheist and Madam Mary Rogers says will mean anything. Isn't that right Mr. & Mrs. Atheist?.
      - Esther
        
        Btw, Mr. Atheist: I just ran across this, I wrote to Kent Perry: "Idiot, you owe me an apology! Are you saying that I have no right to my opinions KentPerry? Why are you so contentious? No don't tell me that you want to save people from Jeff. You are like others who criticize those who think differently than you do, because you love to victimize people, plain and simple. That is just plain idiocy."
        
        I was wrong about Kent wasn't I, Mr. Atheist? You are the "truth-teller" and we are "running on denialism" so please tell me what, oh what, can I do?
      - Esther
        
        The problem is that she has a wayward son. You broke her heart no doubt.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is amazing how you jibber jabber away on topics you are clueless about.
      - Esther
        
        Someone has to tell you. It is not exactly trivial like you make it seem. Your mom, that is.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are not telling me anything of value. Typical for you.
      - Esther
        
        I understand that about you. You think death is final. Actually, typical of you to deny a future with your family. You have already told us all about your atheist outlook Indeed sad and nothing new or of value from you. I will keep you in my prayers.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Death is final. Sorry, you will not be able to baptize people after they die for real.
      - Esther
        
        If you are a Humanitarian, you sure do not act like it. The Mormons are the Humanitarians, for real. I will keep you in my prayers and ask Holy Father to knock some sense into that big head of yours! You mom would want that. I know her mind better than you do. You are a tough son to have had, poor woman.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Right, Humanitarians who spend millions to prevents gays from being able to marry.
        Humanitarians who baptize people after they die regardless of what the wishes
        of the person were. Don’t make me laugh.
      - Esther
        
        I have never heard either of these things. It is against basic tenets of the church to make choices for other people in any way, shape, or form. That is the truth. If they are doing what you say they are not worthy Mormons! I have to find the scripture for you. It is before the war in heaven. I can't right now.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You should find out more about the LDS church.
        
        SALT LAKE CITY — In June, leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made a fateful decision. They called on California Mormons to donate their time and money to the campaign for Proposition 8, which would overturn a state Supreme Court ruling that permitted gay marriage.
        
        http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/17/nation/na-mormons17
        
        (RNS) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has apologized for a Mormon who baptized the late parents of famed Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal. But despite calls this week from Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel and others to rethink the controversial rite, the church is unlikely to drop it entirely.
        
        Latter-day Saints trace posthumous baptism to the Apostle Paul, who wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:29, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead not rise at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, their faith's founding prophet, restored the apostolic practice after centuries of neglect by mainstream Christian
        
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/16/mormons-baptize-dead_n_1280379.html
      - Esther
        
        Leaders? I do not see any leaders' names. The ones who did this were wrong in doing so… i.e. not "worthy" Mormons. I do not agree with the activities reported by the Huff Post. Those Mormons are wrong in doing baptisms for the dead without families' requesting the ordinance. That is nonsense and has been fully explained by teachers and is well understood by me to be wrong. Neither of these things should be done. In both cases it is a breach of agency. It is true the practice was restored by Joseph Smith, but it is not to be abused in such a way. The Mormon people, of which I am one, are obviously not perfect, no one has ever said we are.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It does not change the reality that the Mormon church bankrolled this fight.
      - Esther
        
        I very seriously doubt the institution of the church paid for this… I will see for sure whether that is true.
      - Esther
        
        Where are he actual leaders names?
      - Esther
        
        Here it is, the most important point, of the entire scripture, where God denies Satan the wish to be the redeemer of mankind, because he wants to do it by taking away man's agency:
        
        1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
        
        2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
        
        3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
        
        4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. Moses 4: 1-4 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/4.1-4?lang=eng#0
        
        An overview of the war in heaven with references in Revelations, Matthew, Isaiah, Luke, Moses, Abraham and Doctrine and Covenants. :
        http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/war-in-heaven?lang=eng
        030613
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        An all powerful god does not have to deny Satan the wish to be the redeemer of mankind. Satan would never have been the redeemer at any point. It would be like the Supreme Court saying Romney cannot be president even though he never had any actual chance of being president.
        
        I appreciate you continuing to show what a total and complete moron you are.
      - Esther
        
        Voila! Once again misses the point. You are a pseudo-reductionist. I know you think it is okay to be that way, but things are more complicated! You parallel statement is absurd. It is not the same thing, though you, like Dawkins, want to believe your fairy tale is the accurate one, and you demonstrate it by false reductionism.
      - NTT
        
        After death then the "judgement", It is what you have done during your life that judges where you will spend Eternity . Baptism for the dead is one of the most miss understood verses of the Bible.
      - Glen S
        
        It seems that you have misunderstood the message of the Gospel. No "work" we do can gain us or disqualify us from Heaven. Unless an individual has accepted salvation by Grace alone through Jesus alone (no other work necessary), one will not enter into the Kingdom of God.
      - Esther
        
        He is espousing being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit as Jesus exemplified by His baptism administered by John the Baptist. Is not the beginning of the acceptance of God's Grace through the Holy Spirit? How do you see one accepting salvation as you have recommended, Glen S? I do not see one's receiving baptism as work!
      - Glen S
        
        Not sure how one with a Ph.D. can miss this. Baptism is an outward act. It is an action which we take in obedience to Christ AFTER we accept HIS gift.
        
        Whether you see it as a work or not is unimportant. It fits the definition of something that one as done. If then I have to have a water baptism in order to gain entrance into Heaven, seal my salvation, or receive the Holy Spirit; the gift of salvation is not a gift at all but rather an "earned" result of an action that one takes.
      - Esther
        
        It should be clear once you know that I was born into a Catholic family, and cloistered for many many years in a Catholic community. We NEVER read the bible. I was a Sodality of Mary member, a young women's organization to honor Mary the Mother of Christ; we met frequently with the priest and we never read the bible, catechism every day of my life, no bible. So what I know about the bible is very little. I have heard what you said time and time again, I have been to Reformed seminary for a class here and there, but my point is, I have believed that to follow Christ is the path to salvation. So how does a Ph.D. in a highly technical, very specific subject connect to the concept of what are the specifics to being saved, at all? One set of knowledge is not automatic just because one is certified in another.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you NTT
      - Esther
        
        Until you understand agency, you understand nothing about God, or the point of view Christians take about all of it. Agency is the basis.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Agency is simply another concept of the god delusion. You need to understand reality.
      - Esther
        
        I can imagine you subtly forcing your children into the church of atheism. That is the anti-thesis of agency. You do not understand it. It is the basis for your emnity toward a gracious God.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        And as usual, you would be wrong. My son is a believer. I have never prevented him from attending church services.
      - Esther
        
        I said subtly
      - Esther
        
        I am not usually wrong, atheist.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are wrong so often, I am surprised you can even find your way back to this site.
      - Esther
        
        I am exactly right about Jeff Dixon.
      - Esther
        
        But you did.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The entire bible is one of restrictions. You should read it more closely.
      - Esther
        
        I have not disagreed with you there are errors in the bible. I have disagreed with you that you understand agency. Your have a mind block against the concept of agency. I really doubt if it can be overcome. Until you understand it, and many of us do, you will never understand. If you cannot understand you are continuing to attack good people for their valid beliefs.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are right. I will never succumb to the delusion of religion.
      - Esther
        
        You mother still loves you and prays for you. I know her dreams for you will come true one day when you realize things that are in front of you now, you are too blind to see. It takes more than reason and logic to see it. Pity you for your waste of time shelling out this kind of stuff to good people. They just want to be left in peace to contemplate their own future which they plan by making their very own choices.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        My mother is dead.
      - Esther
        
        And you are an atheist. I am not.
      - Esther
        
        I am right Mr. Dixon… about your mother.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        My mother is another topic you know nothing about.
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir is an honorable man who does not spout meaningless things. You do not understand what happened in heaven that we know by revelation so you cannot understand why God does what he does. You expect people to fall in line with Dawkins at the same time you admit evolution is complex, yet you fail to see the premise and complexity of Holy Father's plan. He made us because He did not want to be alone. And he made us free to choose even if that means He will lose us. How can you not understand that simple concept yet accept Dawkins? When Dawkins obtains the same academic standing as Holy Father, let us know, to paraphrase your statement to me. Blessings for your Parents, אֶסְתֵּר
      - Esther
        
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XKrDozl3AGM&feature=fvwp
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I see you enjoy believing nonsense. It explains your job defending giants.
      - Esther
        
        I do not have a job defending giants, Mr. Dixon, but I am not currently convinced they never existed, so I am on the lookout for more evidence. Your disinterest in the subject has made it more interesting to me actually. And yes, I do enjoy what you call "nonsense." In particular, when it comes to Mormons, you seem to have a dysfunctional block yourself, not unlike that which is described in the book you recommended on Zen and the dysfunctional brain. I appreciate you gave me this link though. I am buying the book. Actually, I am quite sure that the phenomena is the pleasurable experience called "rest" in case you have not heard, the equivalence you know, of the experiences termed "dysfunctional" as in when one is praying. Rest is a most pleasurable experience. I know that following my Sunday meetings which last from 9 to 12 noon on Sundays, I usually have the most peaceful of naps than any I ever experienced any other time. I highly recommend the combination of church and rest. I believe these naps are very healing, so obvious that I am looking forward to reading the book to see if this issue is taken up. In the meantime, I intend to keep everyone in my prayers, just in case y'all need them. No need to tell me, I know you have checked and it is not rational to expect results, but if it rests me, can you entirely deny its value? Of course, I think not. Blessings to you and yours, אֶסְתֵּר
      - Vladimir
        
        A military general can order his troops to lay down their weapons and invite the enemy to slaughter them. He has that authority and power. But to do so, obviously violates his mission.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What a man can to to another man has nothing to do with what a god can do to a man. Apples and oranges, Vlad.
      - Vladimir
        
        It's an example of man or God knowing the mission, goal and how to achieve it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Men are not all powerful or all knowing. God supposedly is. Trying to equate the two is silly.
      - Vladimir
        
        That wasn't equating the two. Am I going to have to spell it out?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It most certainly was equating the two. But spell it out for me.
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, you said, "It is possible that god could change people but decided not to so that he does not violate peoples free will. But that only means he is not in
        control."
        
        As I understand it, God is raising His children. He isn't mass producing robots. His children, because we are His children, have His divine spark within us, if you will, unlike a robot which doesn't. You program a robot to do things, you raise children to be…
        
        A necessary ingredient for advancement for His children, I am told, is for them to have free will and be able to exercise it, experience it, understand the consequences of it and learn to master themselves.
        
        God granted free will to His children and promised not to rescind it and He can do that because He is all powerful. So basically, God has delegated to His Children the power to determine their own future. This is the only way some of His Children can achieve their ultimate inheritance, "joint heirs with Jesus Christ". If God relinquished control of what Mormons call this The Plan of Salvation that He has set up and He is running, then yes, He would not be in control. But He is running it and doing just fine in my humble opinion.
        
        His game, His rules, His rewards for us. Such a deal. It doesn't get any better than this.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        However, the god of the bible is constantly interfering with the free will of people. Every time he supposedly manifested himself to someone on Earth, he was interfering with that person’s free will. You cannot make the claim that god allows everyone to make their own choices and indeed, must allow everyone to make their own choices when he does not follow that rule consistently.
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, you said, "Every time he supposedly manifested himself to someone on Earth, he was interfering with that person’s free will."
        
        How so?
        
        When God appears to someone, it does not "interfere" with his agency. The individual can still decide between choices that are still presented to him.
        
        God is not sitting on His hands. He has called prophets and through
        prophets provided us with scripture, all designed to inform us and
        influence us to make correct decisions. If He were abridging our
        agency, we would not be continually presented with choices or our
        ability to make decisions would disappear.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The reason he does not appear to people is supposedly not to interfere with their free will. Therefore, if he does appear to people, he is interfering.
      - Vladimir
        
        I think an understanding of just what is meant by free will or as I prefer, agency is necessary at this point.
        
        Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency; 1. Laws must exist; 2. Opposites must exist such as good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong; 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail.
        
        Those who think God appearing to select individuals interferes with their free will don't understand agency.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not believe that god exists. Therefore, I do not believe that agency exists.
        However, in terms of the story as presented in the bible, people supposedly
        have free will. God interfering in their choices deprives them of this free
        will. And when god manifests himself to people, he is interfering.
        
        If it is not interfering, why would god simply not appear to every person?
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, I think you are echoing those who are confused by why we need to be out of His presence during this mortal test. A very important reason is to develop faith in God. It is impossible to develop faith in someone's existence when he is standing right in front of you. Those to whom God appeared had, obviously in His perfect knowledge, developed sufficient faith in Him.
        
        You and I haven't had that experience. We have only second hand reports that it happened. You have chosen to disregard these reports, whereas I have pursued a vigorous investigation including inquiring of the Lord. Both of us are exercising our agency.
        
        So God appearing to specific individuals isn't interfering with anyone's agency.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Doubting Thomas said he could not believe unless he could touch the wounds. Therefore, he did not this faith yet.
      - Vladimir
        
        Thomas had walked with Jesus.
        
        The account is as follows, "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
        
        What did Thomas refuse to believe? That the Lord had arisen. This was something provable as opposed to the existence of God which is not provable.
        
        We are to develop faith in God, His existence, His plan for us. Every truth we learn and accept about Him increases our faith.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        If he did not believe he had risen, he did not believe Jesus was god.
      - Vladimir
        
        Before this morphs into a discussion of faith, are you straight on agency, Jeff Dixon?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Am I straight on a concept I do not believe exists in the real world? Well, I understand your view. However, I do not believe it has any functional usefulness. You might as well ask me if I am straight on alchemy.
      - Vladimir
        
        Understanding my view is enough. but you don't have to periodically reaffirm your non-belief. You are the resident atheist on Zionica.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Thank you, but I will post my replies as I choose.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff, I hear the Lord is cooling you guys off in California?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually, you have said repeatedly that you want me to go away. So, you can stop with the nonsense of pretending you stand up for the rights of people to express their opinions.
        
        I expressed an opinion about your comment to Mary and suddenly, in your opinion, she became my madam. Whatever, that actually means.
        
        I have not read Lying yet, but I suspect you are exactly like the people he describes. You embody the idea of lying.
      - Esther
        
        You said "…you have said repeatedly that you want me to go away." Wrong. You started that particular mantra to do away with me. For what Jeff Dixon? Go ahead I know you want to keep telling the world "your side" of the story. Especially your Madam Mary Rogers whose company we now find ourselves again, here in this forum, just like you like it. She might need to know all the sordid details since you are not sure she has seen them, right, Jeff Dixon? You are so predictable. You have been angry at me from the moment I did not accept your judgement about me, as though I would. Ha. "Mary"… you mean your Madam Mary Rogers? Still on the subject of how consistent alinskyites are, Jeff Dixon the so-called "Conservative"? You have manage to dupe more than just me. You are consistent in that respect. Sure, go read Sam Harris's book. I can tell you he is talking about people like your India Indians and your Middle Eastern women, complying with your damnable wishes. To hell with honest American conservative women anyway, they don't give you what you want, that much I know about you Mr. Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, you are a liar. That is true.
      - Esther
        
        Of course you do not recognize truth.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Say something truthful and I will recognize it.
      - Esther
        
        You are a liar.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I said truthful
      - Esther
        
        Jeff Dixon is atheist.
      - Glen S
        
        Esther, you have not convinced anyone that you do either. In fact, you are raising more questions about your grasp then you are answering.
      - Esther
        
        Since I am a member of the Mormon church, I know that all too well.
      - Glen S
        
        Then it begs to question, "Why are you trying so hard to destroy not just your reputation, but that of Mormonism within the limited influence of this and the other sites on which you post regularly?"
      - Esther
        
        My faith does not require I believe something that I know is not true. How is that a problem for others here? Notice Jeff is bringing up today the fact that I told him I "do not believe in God" NOT true. I was trying out atheism, I really did try to see it from his side to the extent, I told him exactly that. I look back on it, it was an honest effort to put myself in his place to see what would I feel, though the experiment did not last long because I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in my heart. I told him so. So he is lying that I hold a dis-belief in God. I told him at every stage what I was thinking included the part where I felt my testimony of Christ was weak and I worried about it. I have a lot of doubt about biblical contradictions now that I have been introduced to them by Jeff Dixon and others on creative revolution, but I have faith that Jesus lives, that He is the Christ and He is my savior. Those strong elements of my faith are from as long as I remember, Jeff Dixon has not perturbed those beliefs one iota.
        .
        Now, with regard to others of these people: How is their questionable practice of their religion in the most negative way, any different then my efforts to explore issues? Again I remind you to look at their record in doing their best to diminish me as a human being, and while Jeff is so blithely expressing his "positive" attributes, he knows I can see through to his deceit.
      - Glen S
        
        Once again, you attempt to excuse your bad behavior by pointing to others. When all they have done is point to the inconsistencies, falsehoods, and areas in which the fundamental writings of Mormonism.
        
        But, again I point you back to the fact that your bad behavior is the topic of this conversation. You cannot point to a single verse in the Bible which states that it is OK to call someone "satanic", "stupid", or even to allude to your level of education as an indication of how much more enlightened you are.
      - Esther
        
        This is a public forum. Where is your public reprimand for the "others"?
        .
        No, I am not excusing my behavior. The "others" have lambasted me and you are telling me to resist standing up for myself. It is several of those "others" I mentioned who made a topic of my education. It is always alluded to by them, not by me. They wanted to know little by little about me same as when I asked you what is your religious denomination, but I told them what they wanted to know. You have not. Why not? But I let you go and did not badger you over topics as I have been time and time again. Once said, who I am, and several other pertinent things about me became known, it became fully blown up as though it was some kind of disease — Despeville, Joe Anzolotti and Dionesius3 especially. They kept me from sleeping well for the insults which did not end for months. As far as my education, I do not discuss my science and have never done so with anyone. Once when I was told that I was not a scientist because I do not speak like one, I posted a brief exposition of my work, then after I received a comment from the person who prompted it, I deleted it since it bears no interest for anyone but myself and my colleagues in the field. In the beginning of my time trying to feel free to express myself it has been one thing after another as you say but not implemented by me, just because I am not Catholic for good reason, and also not Calvinist for good reason. Look up my first experiences here. It is quite often these terms are used, I have been called much worse. Have you reprimanded "others" for their lies? No, you have not. Are you telling me that people who can write a sentence are not allowed, Glen S? Where is the problem of "an indication of how much more enlightened you are" what does that mean, for goodness sake? People emphasize how much more enlightened they are than others constantly on this forum..
      - Glen S
        
        A criticism is not an attack. Pointing out the fallacies of an argument is not an attack. Pointing out the contradictions of a belief system is not an attack. Pointing out that a faith which has as its tenets writings in direct contradiction to the Bible is not an attack. Yet, your responses to anyone who questions you is to begin calling them inappropriate names.
      - Esther
        
        One evidently does not have to call a person by an inappropriate name to demonstrate hate. By your choice of those who should be "corrected" by you, you demonstrate your bias.
        
        Also, I have mentioned time and time again, if your are to exercise such severe judgement upon me, you should look to comments on this site back 8 to 10 months. now. My, how time flies. You will see that even I can learn by example. That is how I learned to do what you say is inappropriate. I had commented perhaps 10 times on the internet before I received Zionica alerts. There are many conversations therein which are merely attacks. With your sensibilities I know you will be shocked by what I withstood.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What you have withstood was brought on by your inane comments.
      - Esther
        
        By you and several others of great ignorance.
      - Glen S
        
        I would then have thought by now that you might have learned NOT to divulge too much information on a forum in which you cannot adequately judge character.
      - Esther
        
        By the way, the reason I came on this forum to begin with was to exercise/improve my education in the bible. I now know one must know the bible already because one is not tolerated well otherwise. I told you before earlier today the "training" I had as a Catholic. If that is not good enough, just be honest, please. :)
        
        Can you tell me why you do not divulge your religious denomination?
      - Glen S
        
        Because you once again attempt to make you bad behavior about something else. My denominational affiliation is not in question. Your continued bad behavior is.
      - Glen S
        
        FYI: Online forums are often the worst places to put into practice one's "religious education." They are often full of lies, misunderstandings, and ill used doctrine.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What you said was you did not think there was actually a god, but that you enjoyed the fellowship associated with going to church. You said you discussed it with people at your church and many did not seem bothered by your comments.
        You are really a sad person. You cannot make any consistent comments.
      - Esther
        
        No I am not a sad person, You are so sweet to say that without your bitter reprimands as you usually do. But know this, you are very mistaken that I do not believe in God. I won't repeat the roller coaster ride that you took me on. Suffice to say you have a very selective memory and so sorry to disappoint you, "nice" guy, but this girl believes in God and His revealed Plan of Salvation.
        
        Now as to consistency. you do not have any idea what it is. When you do your homework then explain to me exactly that you understand the Obama file I sent you on infanticide and the fact that your cohort Madam Mary Rogers denied that very aspect of Obama support of infanticide, then and only then can you claim any knowledge about my consistency.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course you are a sad person. You started the war and then you complain because I engaged in the very war you started.
        
        Your obsession with Mary Rogers is beyond belief. she is not my cohort or my madam. She is an Obama fan. Therefore, she is consistent in that she only believes good about him. Being consistent does not mean being right in what one believes. But you cannot see that simple fact because your emotions overwhelm you.
        
        No, you currently tell people you believe in god because you desperately want to be
        accepted by other Christians on here. But that does not change the reality that
        you told me numerous times that you did not believe that god exists.
      - Esther
        
        I would have to repeat everything I have already said: Your obtuse mind staggers the imagination. You once again show you miss the point of my argument with your cohort madam mary rogers: She denied what was in back and white print a quote from Obama and straight out of his mouth (I know she accepts infanticide as you obviously do, that is beside the point) The point is she denied he accepts infanticide.
        
        People on this forum do not accept infanticide. You do. Obviously.
        
        My testimony of my God is strengthened by the knowledge of such degeneracy as you possess which I never thought possible for a man in regard to his religion or his dealings with people. That is still between me and my God, not for an atheist to have any opinion whatsoever. Since your son is receiving information, ask him, you might learn something useful.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You hope for strength because you have none.
        
        That she denies that he accepts infanticide does not make her inconsistent. It does make her wrong. The two ideas are not the same. You should read up on philosophy more. You are clearly lacking a clear perspective on the issue.
      - Esther
        
        No, the argument was whether Obama stood for infanticide. She said he was not. I showed her he was. She freaked out. And you called me on it, for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
        
        Your ignorance abounds.
        
        You essentially told me I should not have shown her that Obama was for infanticide. That is all I did.
        
        You did not know then and you do not know now what the argument was about.
        
        I did not mention right or wrong. All I mentioned was that he did.
        
        You should read up on judgement. I did not judge her. Jesus Christ will judge her. So you better run to her to lick her wounds. You defended her when you were acting on fb like we were friends. Suddenly you pulled all stops and you began your tirade against me online. I am very clear now… the matter is YOU did not do your homework and I paid the price. Now you are irked that I dare to defend myself to yours and her trash.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, I walked away when you showed yourself to be a complete lunatic.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, you hate that I tried to defend myself. I hoped your walking away was the end of it. You continue to bring it up.
      - Esther
        
        The heart of my actual make-up is Catholicism, not Mormonism. I do not know of a good Mormon who has the burden of their religion like I do.. It is the pits. Lest you forget, the basis of Protestantism, including Calvinism, is also Catholicism. Just know that for fourteen years since I turned away from the Catholic church for all the help they never gave for me, in my humble requests which were irrelevant to them, I have spent those pleasant Sundays in the pew of the Mormon chapel and have received the sacramental reminder of our Savior's atoning sacrifice more humbling and indicative of its purpose then any wafer I every received in the Catholic church. Transubstantiation? I don't think so. I disagree that it is in many ways wrong to worship as the Mormons do. We are all children of a Father in heaven who loves us. Let us perform our ordinances as we understand them.
      - Esther
        
        I see you take for granted the stance of Jeff Dixon without question.
      - Glen S
        
        Again you demonstrate a fallacy. Lack of a condemnation of an opinion does not mean one takes that opinion for granted. I take for granted that Jeff is going to defend his opinions. It is his prerogative to do just that.
        
        But as has be expressed to you on more than one occasion by more than one poster, you have espoused Mormonism, a belief system which claims, among other things, to be the "restored church." You personally have, in you many denigrations of other posters, claimed to be of superior intellect.
        
        Assuming for a second (a big assumption but let's go with it) that either of these are true; is it a good use of your time to continue to first provoke then attack Jeff or others when they respond in kind?
      - Esther
        
        You also hate that Mormons have a better way of handling their children in term of the gay rights than you do.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You should laugh. It is a nonsensical comment that you made.
      - Esther
        
        You madam was the appropriate term for your relations I was suppose to engender by accepting your lie about me. Didn't work out for you, did it, Jeff Dixon the Atheist? Too bad people do not know you like I do.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The people on the site know you very well. Which is why they keep attacking your statements.
      - Esther
        
        They are aghast of what you have done and how you do it.
        I repeat for you, I said:
        "Your madam was the appropriate term for your relations I was suppose to engender by accepting your lie about me. Didn't work out for you, did it, Jeff Dixon the Atheist? Too bad people do not know you like I do."
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        They are laughing at you, not supporting you. I have stated no lies. You are the one lying about me.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, you have stated many lies. You lie about me.
      - Esther
        
        Your Madam Mary Rogers is all ears Jeffrey Dixon. Make it for her.
      - Esther
        
        You mean you think we are depraved like the people in Sam Harris' book who do not believe in medicine? Why is it you do not address that part of my post?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        As I said, I have not read his book. I just know you are willing to lie with no regard to the truth.
      - Esther
        
        The whole story of these maniacs who killed their children are already on Sam Harris' website, essentially fodder for the atheists, who thrive on reductionism.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That religious people act insane is standard news.
      - Vladimir
        
        Of course, but you just sounded a little defensive and self-reassuring, that's all.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        While you might consider me the resident atheist, there are always new people coming onto this site. I do not anyone confused that I might be accepting any part of the god delusion.
      - Esther
        
        Heaven forbid.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It would be a tragedy.
      - Esther
        
        More likely, it would be saving grace.
      - Esther
        
        "he did not this faith yet." ?
      - Esther
        
        What do you mean Jeff Dixon?
      - Esther
        
        You cannot control, Vladimir either. You have turned everything he said upside down and inside out, just like you learned from your liberals. We will not kowtow to you.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You seem to need another surgery to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
      - Esther
        
        You reveal your hateful nature to a greater degree every day. Your methods are also given as warnings to us in the book of Mormon. We are taught how to be protected. It is in the name of Jesus Christ.
      - NTT
        
        The Devil had to get WORKS in there somewhere, he did it big time in the LDS ,baptized, for the dead, being one ,,,,,endless geneologies another, and it goes on and on.
      - Glen S
        
        Yes, I have to say I have never understood how one can believe that we can change the judgement of God after an individual has passed by ceremonially taken their name and getting baptized under their name.
        
        And don't even get me started on earning our way into Heaven.
      - Vladimir
        
        Glen S, you are assuming the judgement has taken place already for those that have died.
        
        You can't earn your way to heaven. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, you are dead in the water. However, you will be rewarded for your good works, that's part of the atonement. If you are wondering what you can do, read the New Testament.
      - Glen S
        
        Already have! And our entrance into Heaven or our eternal separation from God is secured at the death of our flesh.
        
        It is accounted each man once to die, then the judgement. Can't get clearer than that.
      - Vladimir
        
        Your assumptions are between you and understanding.
      - Vladimir
        
        One reason you have trouble understanding is that you don't know what you are talking about.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff Dixon does not have the capacity to learn anything of what you say. He is a broken record spewing his hate on any person he cannot control.
      - Bighoss
        
        "Not omnipresent," one would suppose, owing to the heretical Mormon doctrine that since God is limited by a PHYSICAL body, He is thus unable to be in but one place at a time. What a JOKE and how incompatible with the Bible! My God does not need to increase in glory; He is already glorious to the greatest degree that glory can be attained. Sorry that your fantasy Mormon "god" is not up to that standard.
        You have a second rate deity, Vlad, you and all your fellow Mormon heretics and blasphemers.
      - Esther
        
        You are the joke, BigCreep. God is a Father who cares for His children just as a father like Jeff, for example, cares for his children. Remember that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Just as any parent, when His child makes the right choice, Our Father feels He is glorified, because, after all, His child could make a wrong choice. It's not rocket science.
      - Vladimir
        
        Bighoss, so when is having a physical body limiting? If it is so limiting, why did Jesus take up His body again. Do you have any evidence that Jesus discarded His body after showing the nail wounds to his followers? I'll answer that for you–you don't. And since you adhere to the triune god theory, that means your God has a body right now.
        
        Hello, Bighoss, you are a fellow heretic and didn't know it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
        
        If Adam and Eve has now become one like us, meaning god, (which, by the way, is a humorous way for a singular god to refer to himself), it would appear that the bible supports the view that people can become like god. Isaiah 43:10 is simply another contradiction to the verses in Genesis.
      - petroskhan
        
        Punctuation and context are important here, as well as reading the verse in its entirety to glean its true meaning:
        
        22 "And YAHWEH Elohim said, Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever,"
        
        The only similarity between man and God here is in the knowing of good and evil; prior to this event this was knowledge which man did not possess.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        True, but the verse says they became like god. Therefore, if they became like god, they had the same knowledge of and ability to understand good and evil. However, people are supposedly unable to understand what god knows. This verse says they can understand it.
        
        I also did not say the verse indicates they became the equal of god, simply that they became like god. You asked the following: ""Can God help us become gods?" I will refer you to the Bible." The verse I supplied shows that the bible indicates that people can become like god.
      - petroskhan
        
        They became like Him in that they knew good and evil, as He does. Similarity ends there.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That is still becoming like god. Becoming like god does not equate to being exactly like god.
      - petroskhan
        
        A man, like a woman, has two legs and two arms. But they're not the same in all ways, are they?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You keep trying to make this about being exactly the same. The verse i quoted does not say that man has become exactly like us, it says man has become like us.
      - petroskhan
        
        To quote:
        
        "If Adam and Eve has now become one like us, meaning god, (which, by the way, is a humorous way for a singular god to refer to himself), it would appear that the bible supports the view that people can become like god."
        
        You're truncating the verse to support your contention. There is a modifier on that "becoming like us", which is, in the knowing of good and evil. Use the whole verse, deal with the whole concept, not just a part of it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What exactly was the modifier?
      - petroskhan
        
        "The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil."
        
        The modifier to which I refer is the latter part of the verse, "to know good and evil." That is the way in which man had become "like" God. Pretty much the end of the similarity referred to in the verse.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        But it glosses over the earlier part which is that "The man has become as one of Us".
        
        If he had become as one of them, it implies an aspect of being godlike.
      - petroskhan
        
        Then, you must be a Christian, and an ardent student of the Bible, Jeff. It is very clear that this MUST be so.
        
        Jeff Dixon is like Petroskhan, posting on Disqus.
        
        (Conversely, I must be an atheist, since we both post on Disqus.)
        
        If we both post our thoughts and comments here, we must be alike in all ways, right? Or is there some flaw in that logic, some leap or extrapolation not founded on the statement given?
        
        Man did not know good and evil, until eating of the forbidden fruit. Afterwards, he became, in God's words, "like us, to know good and evil." Not alike in any other way, nor to any other degree. The sentence includes only that one similarity. You may choose to assume whatever you wish, but it would be founded only on your assumption and/or extrapolation of what the verse states, not the actual words which are given.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, there is a flaw in your logic. Nowhere is it written in a book that supposedly came from god that if atheists and Christians both study the same issue, they are the same.
        
        However, there is a verse in the bible that says "The man has become as one of Us".
      - petroskhan
        
        "Nowhere is it written in a book that supposedly came from god that if
        atheists and Christians both study the same issue, they are the same."
        True, but the logic, if logic it is, must be applicable across the board, or there is a flaw in the logic. If being similar in one stated way makes two things similar in all ways, then it must apply to both situations. The only other conclusion is that the logic is flawed.
        
        You're stating that by taking only half the statement, you can ignore the qualifier in the verse, and claim that the first part of the sentence must then apply to every conceivable extrapolation of what is given.
        
        "You will go to jail for up to 20 years, if you rob a bank." Let's just ignore that important "if you rob a bank" part, and just toss someone in jail for 20 years. Same "logic" applies here.
        
        "The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil." The verse contains more information than you seem comfortable quoting. Man became as God is, in that he had become aware of good and evil, just as the verse says. You may enjoy truncating the verse to serve your own ends, but it defies logic, and it is a bit disingenuous to do so.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Which just takes us back to earlier comments. Being similar does not mean being the same.
      - petroskhan
        
        I never said they were the same.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        However, they are similar. They do not have to be exact to be similar.
      - Esther
        
        Never would happen. Given that God is infinite in both the past and the future, if you started now and you progress to infinity in the future God would still be ahead of you no matter how quickly you progressed. That is the gist of what Valdimir is trying to explain.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The idea of an all powerful and all knowing god progressing is more stupid than most of the other drivel on this site. I appreciate you stepping up to show your lunacy.
      - Esther
        
        Our Father's works and his words never cease. He is glorified through the choices of his children make to return to him, rather than choosing the adversary. From the Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1: 36-39
        
        36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
        
        37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
        
        38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and THERE IS NO END TO MY WORKS, NEITHER TO MY WORDS.
        
        39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Which says nothing about progressing.
      - Esther
        
        Notice the words I emphasized… also go to link to read the entire book of Moses. It may give you a better understanding of what Vlad is saying. Our Father is glorified when we chose him instead of the adversary. Remember that he will never force us. That story I think is in the 4th chapter.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Still says nothing about progressing.
      - Esther
        
        If he increases in glorification, it is only because his children are doing things for themselves, because he has given us agency. He really enjoys seeing our personal development. In that way, He is progressing because we are developing.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        petroskhan asked: "What does He have to learn?"
        
        Luke 2:52
        New International Version (NIV)
        52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
        
        If Jesus grew in wisdom as he matured from a child to an adult, then he was learning new information. If he learned something, then he obviously was unaware of the information beforehand. Some of the attributes of god is that he is all knowing, all powerful, and never changes. Jesus is said to be god. Well, part of god, they gloss over the Trinity most of the time too. If Jesus learned something new, then he cannot claim to always be all knowing. How can an all knowing, all powerful deity, be reduced in power? If he was reduced in power and knowledge as a human, then god can change. If he cannot change, then Jesus had to be all knowing from day one as an infant.
        
        It also says that Jesus grew in favor with god. Now, once again, Jesus IS god. How does an aspect of god grow in favor with himself? What does that even mean? How is it even remotely possible that god, who being all knowing, knows exactly what Jesus will do before he does it. In fact, Jesus is fulfilling gods will. (Which is really his own will) Since god sent Jesus to earth to do everything that Jesus did, what could Jesus do that would actually increase his favor with god? (Who is himself, of course)
        
        It is the absurdity of verses like this that show that the bible is simply a work of fiction.
      - petroskhan
        
        It is you who is claiming that Jesus and God are the same individual, not I. Nor do I believe that the Bible supports that contention.
        
        Jesus, as the son of God, assumed human form, to die for our sins. As the man he had become, he DID have learning to do, and growth to accomplish.
        
        Jesus and God were "one" in sense of unified purpose, and goals, not in the sense that they are a single entity.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, your all powerful god had to rely on the actions of another person to accomplish his will? Do you understand the concept of all powerful?
      - petroskhan
        
        Could you clarify that question a bit? I'm not sure to whom you're referring with the "another person" part…
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        God had to rely on Jesus to accomplish his goal. If Jesus is not god, then an all powerful god could not do it without help from another person.
      - petroskhan
        
        The goal was to have a sacrifice made in atonement for our sins. Since that was His plan from the beginning, your statement doesn't really make much sense.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, the plan, before anything actually occurred, before the first creation of god, was to create an angel who would rebel against god and become a consistent and never ending adversary to this god. Then to create two people who would immediately sin against this god, even though they had no way to know they were doing something wrong. Allow them to breed and populate the world, only to destroy everybody but eight people. Allow these eight to breed again until enough generations had passed to allow Jesus to be placed on earth so that he could be slaughtered as a sacrifice to this same god?
        
        That was his perfect plan from the beginning? And you actually also claim this god is perfect, all knowing and all powerful? Why not just send Jesus as a sacrifice as soon as Adam and Eve screwed up and avoid all the millions of deaths? Or, why not not actually come up with a plan that does not require that billions die, billions more end up in hell and children get their heads dashed against rocks? You know, actually use being all knowing and all powerful as a force for good?
        
        Did it ever occur to you to wonder why the children of Noah immediately began creating new god myths? Can you really imagine that if Noah and his family had really survived the flood, their children would not be the most devote and religious people ever in the history of the world? Yet, according to the time frame of when the flood occurred in the bible, the Egyptians, the Chinese and the Indians had already built immense societies at the same time that the flood occurred. If they were the descendants of Noah, they had the worst short term memory of any people ever known on the planet.
      - petroskhan
        
        The goal is to have those who have chosen between obedience and sin take their place in God's kingdom with Him.
        
        For this to occur, there has to BE a choice. Without evil in the world, what would be the options available to people?
        
        As for the children of Noah straying from their faith, can you name a single time in history that people as a group have made logical, intelligent decisions? Look at the last election. A man who has failed by any and every test was re-elected by a LARGE majority. Why? He's had four years to show what he can do, has failed miserably, and people STILL VOTED FOR HIM. By your logic, he shouldn't have a single vote.
        
        The foolishness of the common man should never be underestimated.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Why is that the plan? I ask this in complete sincerity. Why is it necessary to create a plan that requires people to make this decision without all the facts? You might reply that people actually do know all the facts, but that would not be accurate. Billions have lived and died without ever knowing about the biblical god, Jesus or the stories of the bible.
        
        The reason there has never been a time in history that people make logical decisions is that there has never been a time when people knew all the facts. But if the people who survived the flood actually existed, they would know they were alive because their god demanded they be alive.
      - Vladimir
        
        Jeff Dixon, you are right that we almost never know all the facts before we make a decision. God has given us principles to live by and upon which we should make our decisions. If we obey God in our decision making process we will always fare better than had we not. The immediate consequences may not always appear favorable to us but eternally they will be.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You will not be better off if you decide to stone non virgins on their wedding night.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Besides, why was that the plan? Why does an all powerful god need a sacrifice? What is the fascination with blood in the bible?
        
        Why doesn't god simply make souls that live in heaven and praise him?
      - petroskhan
        
        That ground has been covered before, as I am sure you will recall. It clearly falls into the "asked and answered" realm, Jeff.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I would not have asked it if I recalled it. I have no memory of you stating why god did not create souls in heaven to praise him.
      - Esther
        
        God is not an earthy emperor. He is a good Father who encourages his children to achieve, That is how he feels glory. Recognize that at all, Jeff Dixon? You are a Dad.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Nonsense, he threatens eternal torment. That is hardly what a good parent does.
      - Esther
        
        That is what you would do, so why not Holy Father.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        People cannot provide eternal torment. Although listening to you comes close.
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir will be pleased you are progressing. He will have you in the waters of baptism.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I prefer not to get into water with other men, thank you very little.
      - Esther
        
        You do it all the time when you go swimming. :)
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Baptism has men holding other men. That does not interest me. Swimming in the same pool with no contact is hardly the same thing.
      - Esther
        
        Then you do not touch your dad
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Not naked, or groping each other in a swimming pool. no I do not. But you grew up Catholic. I am sure you were used to the priests groping all the other men and it seems normal to you.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff, you advertising yourself? That is pretty low, to use me and the Mormon article under which you write to advertise. In Zionica, at that. After all you often say nice things when you really mean to say evil things. Most people know that is how liberals get their points across, their code. Wink Wink. And you are one on the inside. Tsk Tsk.
        
        You were a Methodist altar boy, after all, so you must have been groped yourself.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Not every alter boy was groped, loon.
      - Esther
        
        You implied that all were groping: on the subject of my brothers who were Catholic altar boys, and of the baptismal ordinance performed by good men who are of the Melchizedek priesthood in the Mormon church.
        
        So as you extrapolate, why not I? It is a language technique you have mastered and used quite frequently. Though, it is nefarious. You don't like the taste of your own medicine.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        And I was not a Catholic alter boy. Are you really that dense? What am I asking, of course you are.
      - Esther
        
        You were a protestant altar boy. Same thing. Not dense on this end. That is you of course.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You think the Protestants and the Catholics are the same. lol. Are the Mormons and the Calvinists the same? loon.
      - Esther
        
        You were (are?) a protestant altar boy. Very possibly with a bad experience. You implied that all were groping: on the subject of my brothers who were Catholic altar boys, and of the baptismal ordinance performed by good men who are of the Melchizedek priesthood in the Mormon church.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, I had a bad experience. I was required to listen to idiotic sermons.
      - Esther
        
        JEFF DIXON IS TRASH PERSONIFIED.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        When you run out lies, you have to resort to these type of insane comments? No real surprise there.
      - Esther
        
        You are lying again.
      - Esther
        
        I repeat, that is what you do.
      - petroskhan
        
        Sorry to interject in your discussion, but that whole idea of "eternal torment" is off base. A more careful perusal of the wording of the Bible indicates that those not gaining eternal life will simply be exterminated permanently.
      - Esther
        
        He is an atheist, so the latter is what he believes anyway.
      - Vladimir
        
        "…those not gaining eternal life will simply be exterminated permanently." Never heard of extinction as a possible fate, petroskhan.
      - petroskhan
        
        In short:
        Had God simply made us all perfect, in heaven, to worship Him, we would
        not have made any choices, suffered no temptations, nor dealt with any
        trials or challenges to our faith.
        
        The goal, at the end, was to have us be with God. He wanted us to be there by our own choice, and in large part, without having direct, irrefutable evidence available, since irrefutable evidence obviates choice.
        
        In order for us to have that choice, there had to be options, or at least one other option, to serving God. Since God is good, there needed to be evil, or at least an absence of God in one's life. Satan was the tool through which He has accomplished the goal of introducing a choice for us.
        
        We are free to choose. We can look at the universe around us and see (and acknowledge) that it was designed, and respect that Designer, or we can choose to ignore the evidence, and believe that we are the result of nothing more significant than a Grand Cosmic Joke, or, as The Bard put it:
        
        "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his
        hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an
        idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
        
        I choose to hold the evidence of the universe and the Bible to demonstrate that we mean more than that.
      - Esther
        
        You are not quoting the bible. In fact the Plan of Salvation is revealed to Mormon prophets which has been severly criticized on this forum.. If I am wrong and it is in the bible I would like to have the chap/verses please.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The story of Lucifer shows that to not be true.
      - Vladimir
        
        I agree with you and you stated it beautifully, petroskhan. Can I use your work without attribution? "Jesus and God were "one" in sense of unified purpose, and goals, not in the sense that they are a single entity." Yes, yes, and yes!
      - petroskhan
        
        "Can I use your work without attribution?" Well, since I have plans for writing a book anytime soon, be my guest.
        
        "I agree with you…" Wow…we actually AGREE on something? I need to sit down…wait…I am sitting. Okay, I'm fine.
      - Vladimir
        
        Indeed, amazing. The only word I would change is "were". I would use "are".
      - petroskhan
        
        Actually, I would rather use "are" as well. Good point.
      - petroskhan
        
        Edit: Should have said, "..I have NO plans for writing a book…"
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is not I that makes the claim. I do not believe in gods. However, that is the prevailing view of most Christians.
      - Vrae
        
        I see where this is going. Long post ahoy!
        
        Jeff, when Petros made a distinction between Jesus and “God”, by the latter term, he may be referring to “God the Father”, who in the Trinitarian mindset of God, is distinct from “God the Son” (Jesus) and “God the Holy Spirit”. This can also be applied to Luke 2:52.
        
        To the Trinitarian mindset, which I think you mean by “prevailing view”, God is basically one unified echad (אחד), deity, (as is used in Deuteronomy 6:4), but with 3… how shall I put this… Figures… (I didn’t want to use “Persons” because it sounded too much like I was saying God was simply 3 “People”) who act independently, but are unified in motive.
        
        Admittedly, this was a touch confusing of Petroskhan to use one word with 2 meanings for the post it’s in. Petros, in future, I would totally recommend using “the Father” when you are going to mention the entire deity that is God in the same post as God the Father. If I’ve misunderstood any of your statements, could you point it out for us?
        
        Hopefully that cleared things up, Jeff.
        
        -Vrae
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I completely understood Petro. He does not believe that Jesus is the same as god the father. However, that merely opens up new issues. How can Jesus be the savior of mankind if he is not actually also god? Why does he make comments about being god if he is not actually god? Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).
      - Esther
        
        PET doesn't believe in a triune God. Can you direct me to where he says that?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        He says it all over the place. Research your own facts.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, if he is the son of god and they are not the same entity, then there is more than one god. Interesting monotheistic religion you have there.
      - petroskhan
        
        Show me where anything in the Bible states that Jesus is a god.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        In his letter to the Colossian Christians, Paul described Jesus as the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation" and said that "by [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth…that He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-16)
        
        In the same letter, Paul wrote: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9)
        
        In his letter to Timothy, Paul stated that Jesus will "judge the living and the dead," which is clearly a perogative of God Himself. (II Timothy 4:1)
        
        Paul is, of course, hardly alone. The Gospel of John kicks off with an unmistakable claim of Jesus' deity, calling him "the Word" and making clear that the "Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1). Indeed, the entire New Testament is written with the theme that Jesus is the Son of God and the fulfillment of the Old Testament messianic prophecies.
      - petroskhan
        
        Just to be clear here, and not waste any time…is it your contention that the Bible states that Jesus and God are one and the same entity?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How can Jesus judge people if he is not god? Is judging not limited to god alone?
      - petroskhan
        
        John 5:22 – "22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son."
        The judging will be done by Jesus, but the authority for that judging comes from God.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        1 Corinthians 4:4 ESV
        
        For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What was his form before he assumed human form?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        It is amazing the ignorance of man. JESUS did not come to earth as GOD. To do what HE came here to do HE had to come as man and HE was learning man's ways. There is no deceit in JESUS, HE had to be like man, HE had to feel the hate and know the pain of it.. Through strength HE defied evil and never practice evil, to show man that it is possible to live a GODLY life.And HE came to give HIS life for such worthless people, as you and me.. .
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, the never changing god changed and became a man. Got it, clear as mud.
      - fliteking
        
        What are the odds of you and Esther both changing your avatars si·mul·ta·ne·ous·ly?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        What are the odds of you asking a stupid question?
      - Esther
        
        You've already taken the one I want, so I am stuck with my little cub scouts.
      - Esther
        
        Jesus came to Earth as a man, Mr. Dixon, to be an example to us of the path we should follow if we choose to do so. Remember, it is always our choice because Our Father would never force us to do anything even though we would experience great pain at times due to the wiles of Satan. Christ has said: "Here I am send me." He crossed the veil which exists between heaven and earth, just as we did when we left the presence of Our Father to come to Earth to be tested. As such, He was not privy to knowledge from heaven until Holy father imbibed Him with the knowledge as he became older. The Father's knowledge is given to Jesus, just as He gives to us knowledge we need, once we are baptized. Christ was baptized as an example to us of the ordinances we must experience in order to receive this knowledge under covenant, if we choose the path to return to Him. If we do not choose the right we will not be allowed back. Of course the Father knows our hearts and He know that we will choose sometimes wrongly and sometimes rightly, but He must allow us to make the choices nonetheless. If He does control everything then we could never progress to be the interesting children of a wonderful and gracious Father. Imagine what it would be like if he did control everything! It would be like we are automatons! Not at all interesting children of a good and gracious Father.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Just what I said. The never changing god changed and became a man.
      - Vladimir
        
        God is never changing in His dealings with His children. His doctrines and principles are never changing.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course he changes how he deals with us. When is the last time anyone was turned into salt?
      - Vladimir
        
        Death is death, Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Obviously not when someone can be resurrected.
      - Vladimir
        
        We will all be resurrected.
      - Esther
        
        If you truly want to understand, you cannot leave out the reasoning behind it all. There are many facts that come together simultaneously. But you must understand agency if you are to understand indeed that the Father is unchanging but he and his works and his words never cease. He has also made an interesting universe, He is an entity who does not like dull and boring. He also has a sense of humor, so he made everyone of us unique. Why shouldn't he make lives more interesting for his children whom he loves, wouldn't you if you were God (I am not saying you are or will ever be) by allowing them to make their own decisions… even though they must pay the consequences. Why is that so hard to believe?
      - Vrae
        
        I see you guys have a thread-bumping party going on here. I know I’m a tad late, but you started it. ;)
        
        Back 4 months ago, I had attempted to provide a response, but it never appeared. I’m guessing that it’s because I closed the window before the computer fully sent it, but at the time I thought that something was wrong with my browser cache and gave up. I was going to post this in the same section as last time, but the primary issues relate to the selected post.
        
        Anyways, I was planning to elucidate my own view of the Trinity. What I see as problematic in your view is the idea that God must exist in the sense of exclusively consisting of one unipersonal Being. (I’m flip-flopping on that word “Person”, because, whereas I’m talking off the top of my head, the source I’ll ask that you read does, and they know more about the topic than I do) and you take all the wonderful verses that show Jesus explaining his deity and, in a Procrustean way, decide it is contradictory.
        
        (emphasis in italics, my grammatical preferences in brackets)
        
        “It also says that Jesus grew in favor with [G]od. Now, once again, Jesus IS [G]od. How does an aspect of [G]od grow in favor with [H]imself?… In fact, Jesus is fulfilling [G]od[‘]s will. (Which is really [H]is own will)… what could Jesus do that would… increase his favor with [G]od? (Who is [H]imself, of course)”
        
        When if you have time, be sure to check out this page:
        
        http://www.equip.org/articles/examining-islamic-apologetics-part-2/
        
        (The section relevant to my argument is the one labelled “Assumption of Unitarianism”. )
        
        You probably want me to cut to the chase. OK, so when Jesus is referring to God in the third person, such as in John 6:28-29, it doesn’t automatically mean we have to choose if He is either talking specifically about or excluding Himself from that. He could easily mean the entire Being that is God, which would include himself.
        
        Thanks for starting the thread up again. :>)
        
        ~Vrae
      - Vladimir
        
        How about this, Vrae. There are three Gods, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Forget the dribble of Nicea, just read the New Testament.
      - Vrae
        
        Frankly, I don't worry about creeds.
        
        I like the Bible, too. As much as I like the New Testament, I try to take both of ‘em into account, y'know?
        
        “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” Romans 15:4 (KJV)
        
        What I, as a Bible-believer, start with is the NT evidence that says Jesus and the Spirit are also God, and leads you to your three-God conclusion, and then take Deuteronomy 6:4 into account, and what I think it wants to tell us is Elohim is the Only God around.
        
        I know the English Bible was translated by humans, but I don’t have enough evidence to reject either evidence out of hand, so I guess that’s why I put all the effort into trying to make them fit together, you know?
        
        Thanks for your response!
        
        ~Vrae
      - Vladimir
        
        Vrae, I have a lot of trouble swallowing the "findings" of the Council of Nicea that God is "3 in 1". Especially when Jesus told us to pray to His Father who art in heaven. And who was Jesus calling out to as He was dying on the cross?
        
        There are many instances like these in the New Testament, so a closer look at Deuteronomy is in order. Moses was emphasizing that all the gods and idols that the Egyptians had been worshipping were false. When we read his words, from our perspective of having read the New Testament, we are tempted to interpret his instruction as a lesson in the makeup of the Godhead. But it was not.
      - Vrae
        
        I am just having a bit of trouble getting this to send. If I've submitted this 5 or 20 times, I apologize. This one has a summary affixed.
        
        Your idea of what the Trinity is is inaccurate. I hope this helps. The Trinity can be likened to a trillium flower.It is a white flower that has three petals that are connected by a stem at the bottom. All three petals are equal in… petal-ness, but they are all interconnected. It is all one flower. Your idea of the Trinity can be likened to a flower that technically has 3 petals, but they exist one at a time, so, in practice, it only has one petal at any given time.
        
        The part my analogy doesn't explain is that the doctrine of the Trinity supposes that the infinite wisdom of the Godhead decided that it would be in the best interest of heaven for the 3 members of the Godhead to take separate roles, unlike
        
        Can I explaining using the government of your faith? Okay, it's like if God the Holy Father is the President of the Church, and Jesus is the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. I’ll admit this may not be the best analogy, but what I’m getting at is that neither of these men is inherently lesser than the other, but within the governing framework of LDS leadership, there is a functional hierarchy, just like the Trinitarian God.
        
        In summary, your idea of what I believe is incorrect, because . God does not exist in only one aspect at any given point in time, but God consists of all 3 aspects at every given point in time. They are all unified in the sense that the framework in which the Godhead operates involves them to exist with the Father as head. (1 Cor. 10:11)
        
        In addition, Christianity affirms the following: “Christianity maintains… that Christ in his essence is equal with God, and that the Trinity comprises one deity with three distinct centers of conscious thought.” *
        
        References
        *Holding, J. P. (n.d.). Mormon View of Jesus. Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries. James Patrick Holding. Tektonitron apologetics Encyclopedia. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions. Retrieved March 13, 2013, from
        http://www.tektonics.org/lp/mormonsandjesus.html
      - Vladimir
        
        I think I'll stick to the scriptures and forget all this "aspect" and "essence" nonsense. And "centers of conscience thought"? Who came up with that? It certainly isn't in the Bible. And "petal-ness"? Really!
        
        Vrae, it is so much simpler and easier to believe the scriptures as they are written and not try to mold man's incomprehensible extra-biblical theories into something comprehensible. The "trinitarian god" theory was developed some 300 years after Christ's ministry. The authors never claimed to be inspired, but their theory was forced on the church anyway in an attempt to quell dissension.
        
        God the Father is, in fact, the father of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ is a God just as His father is a God and just as the Holy Ghost is a God. Three Gods that are one in purpose. (Do you know what that purpose is?)
        
        Jesus told us to pray to His Father and He said the Comforter will come after He departed from earth at the end of His time here. That's easy to comprehend because there are three Gods. Not so if you are juggling the aspects of a trinitarian god.
        
        You might ask yourself why we are given descriptive names such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost? We experience and understand the father-son relationship. What is the purpose of using these terms if it is completely foreign to our reality?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        There is an easier way of understanding the Trinity. It is an idea that people made up to explain earlier stories that people made up.
      - Vladimir
        
        You are half right, Jeff Dixon.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Don't waste your time on this one, he is so well trained in evil , in anti-GOD behavior, in anti-GOD answers. you know Satan is very smart in evil, he has almost overcome the world, he trains his people well,. To argue with one of them is a total waste.GOD will allow them to rage around the earth until HE decides HE has had enough and then He will send HIS SON in the clouds to meet HIS people.The dead in CHRIST will rise first to meet HIM , then those who are still alive will rise to meet HIM. After all of HIS people have gone HE will take care of the rest, it will not be a happy time on earth. He who does not believe will at last believe, but it will be too late for them to repent at that time.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        This sounds like dialogue from an Austin Powers movie.
        
        U.N.Representative: So, Mr. Evil…
        
        Dr. Evil: It's Dr.Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called
        "mister," thank you very much.
        
        Scott: [both are theJerry Springer show] How could you do this to me? On national television!
        
        Dr. Evil: Well throw me a freakin' bone here, Scott.
        
        Scott: Why did you run out on me?
        
        Dr. Evil: Because you're not quite evil enough.
        
        [audience boos]
        
        Dr. Evil: Well it's true! It's true! You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough.
      - Esther
        
        I do not think you are evil. I think you are a little boy inside who is just curious.
      - Vladimir
        
        Who was Isaiah, speaking for God, talking to, petroskhan? He was addressing a group of His children who kept returning to polytheism. They had better stop forming gods because He was their God.
      - petroskhan
        
        "They had better stop forming new gods because He was their God."
        
        But He's not YOUR God, is He? He's not the God of Mormonism, is He, Vlad? No, the god of the Mormon faith is only one of an infinite number of gods, whose ranks you all hope to someday join.
        
        "He was addressing a group of his children who kept returning to polytheism." Hmm…you mean, like Mormons, Vlad?
      - Vladimir
        
        How's your reading of the Book of Mormon coming along, petroskhan?
      - petroskhan
        
        I had to set it aside for a while, due to being very busy with some cooking classes (silly, but big fun), and then getting a truly awesome flu, but I'll be getting back to it in the next day or so.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I hope the cooking classes were suspended until your flu passed. :)
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Maybe they were not.
      - petroskhan
        
        As hard it might be to believe, the school didn't put everything on hold for me (and my illness). Callous scoundrels, to a man! I am as shocked as you that they failed to recognize that there is simply no point to the class without the presence of my inestimable wit and charm. And my humility…mustn't forget that.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am stunned. They obviously did not understand the issue.
      - Esther
        
        Recruiting Pet to your church Jeff Dixon? ;)
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Your comments become less coherent every day.
      - Esther
        
        Compared to what?
        Your denials?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Just a standard level of comprehension.
      - Esther
        
        No, I am sure you think I should disregard your lying and let them stand as trophies in your war against the theists.
      - Esther
        
        :)
      - Esther
        
        What people do not grasp is that the Mormons do not believe any man is infallible. They do not grasp the fact we do not worship graven images. They do not grasp we see Christ as living and that He is with us. Taken altogether they resist a separate family's record of their experience with Christ.
        
        Elder Snow is a man. Elder Snow is fallible. etc etc. I do not believe everything even the prophets of the past say, because as time goes by there are very different problems to deal with , very different environments of the times. For example the MMM (Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred during the unrest of the pre-Civil War when brothers were killing brothers and while the notion to exterminate Mormons was the law of the land. A woman and her children ran off with a minister of the Mormon church? God only knows if the woman was running from a Satanic man! She must have had a horrible existence with her husband to do so, right or wrong, and then Brother Pratt was killed. Was this the reason for the massacre, the MMM? I doubt it. I believe it was b/c of the extermination order, but really who knows now? Who can know now? There is so much antagonism, can it really be unraveled? Whatever the problems, can we today be held responsible? I doubt it. But it keeps coming up! I don't care who or what was involved, the Mormons are followers of Christ and Christ said forgive them for they know not what they do! We just have to be vigilant so it does not ever happen again, even though we should not stop looking for the truth, ever!
        
        It is true that we are not "taught" these things. Actually we are not "taught" a lot of what we all know is true. And that is discerned individually by our individual interaction with the Holy Spirit, the Holy spirit of whom Christians other than the Mormons believe we do not have any privy to Him. By the way, it is not these others whom we should look to to define whether we are Christian. We follow Christ. Therefore, we are Christian. People other than Mormons cannot understand because they have not been baptized by a valid Melchizedek priesthood holder, as is clearly denoted in the bible who are the Melchizedek priests. Time to tell them the way it is, that is, what Mormons know is the truth.
        
        How do I know these things? I know a lot of really good Mormons and I interact with them on a daily basis. One just knows by the Spirit. It is the only way to know. We have a testimony of a family down through several generations of time who have kept awesome records with their interactions with prophets, seers and revelators, all with awesome testimonies of their experiences with Christ near and at the time He spent here on the Earth. That is the Book of Mormon. It is a family's record. It is not the Holy Bible. It is not considered to be an addition to the Holy Bible. It stands alone as a family history, a separate testimony of Jesus Christ.
        
        Blessings to all,
        אֶסְתֵּר
      - Evermyrtle
        
        You and I have debated, we have disagreed many times. I would like ask you a question and think that you can answer, Mormon prophets denied that GOD was not everlasting and is not or will not be everlasting and that JESUS CHRIST was not the son of this everlasting GOD but of a god and his goddess wife, by the way of sexual action
        
        Then I heard that the Mormon religion has turned around and done away with these false ideas and have accepted our everlasting FATHER GOD AND HIS SON who was with GOD at the creation.
        
        I would like a explanation of what is true and what is not true. I do apologize for any untrue reports that I may have made anything that was not the truth, over my time of blogging.. This will help me sort out the truth from the untruth. It is perfectly OIK if you do not choose to answer, just check it out and be sure you have the truth. We all make a lot of mistakes but our GOD is a wonderful forgiving GOD
      - Esther
        
        There are some really sick things on the internet about every religion known to man. These things are out out there by people who want to destroy goodness. I have written a lot about myself and how I came to study the Book of Mormon. That book is a record of a family who has experiences with Jesus Christ. I do not see the great necessity to bash it or any records of any religion. I lash out when people are over the top at trying to destroy. But who can know the secrets of the heart which is the temple of the Holy Spirit enough to make such judgments? I was born and raised Catholic and lived as one for nearly 50 years. I have the same concept of God that my mother and father taught me and about whom i learned in daily catechism. He is the very same God of the Mormons' belief. I did not leave my God when I joined the Mormons, I left an institution that I found was not promoting the following of Christ in the simplest way, as Christ has taught us in his parables and his lectures to the people. If you know the God of the Catholics and the God of the Reformed religions, then you know the God of the Mormons. Same one.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I do not know of any GOD but my GOD who has been forever and will remain everlasting, and HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON who was not conceived by any god and his goddess. I have never been in a Catholic Church but what I have heard about them I do not go along with what I know about them.
        
        Some of what I reported came straight from the writings of the Mormon prophets. I do not believe that I ever reported anything about the Mormon religion that did not come directly from this source. I was able to pull these writings up one time on the internet only once. and copied a few thing down. I simply cannot go along with anything, I read that day. I did not read one truth of my GOD there
        
        I basically use the KJV for my source of information, about my GOD and a few evangelist who I trust. I am very careful about bogus sources.
        
        Thanks for answering!!!
      - Esther
        
        The KJV is the source used by the Mormons. It is said by Joseph Smith to be the most correct to the extent it is correctly translated. He learned Calvinism from his mother. The Mormon prophets including Joseph Smith are fallible human beings.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Then he could be wrong about the KJV.
      - Esther
        
        You are admitting you lied there are gross contradictions to the KJV.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am stating there are contradictions. Are you also incapable of reading?
      - Esther
        
        Then you better edit the comment to which I replied.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not need to edit it. You need to learn to comprehend better.
      - Esther
        
        You did not address the issue of my comment, once again.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I fight lashing out in answer to anything I read but fail sometime when the lie is so outrageous. Usually though, I try just to explain the truth. I do not think GOD approves of me when I lash out at somebody who may be just plain ignorant and believes what they have been taught, and it is all they know. I find spite and malice to be disrespective of my GOD and SAVIOR, and yes, some time I do miss the boat.I think you are wrong the GOD of the Catholics I believe is not the God of the Mormons. I arrest y case!!
      - Esther
        
        No, Evermyrtle, you are definitely wrong. You are drinking the hate Kool-aid. Not only is He the God of the Mormons and the Catholics, he is also the God of Martin Luther (a Catholic priest), Calvin, John MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, etc. It's okay, we do not hold a grudge. We know how ridiculous the stories have become and pretty much ignore your notions about the one and only God.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Is this what you were referring to when you spoke of lashing out?? Instead of lashing out, just Accept it that other people do have different opinions than yours. Handling it this way makes you seem more of a Christian because it is impossible that everybody's opinion on everything will be the same as yours, which does not necessarily mean that they are wrong. Trying to insult others make you look bad not the person that you wish to attack. Name calling is definitely not Christian. Notice I did not call you anything. Your God or my GOD do not need us to defend them, mine does not ask that I defend HIM but that I teach the truth about HIM and HE will do the rest.Of course, I will stand by HIM I hope to the death if I am called to do so. I hope I will have toe courage to do whatever I must do for HIM. I'm sorry that we cannot hit it off better, this is not the way of the LORD to bicker and fight like little children fighting over their favorite toy.
      - Esther
        
        You are guilty of the same thing of which you accuse me: "insult others make you look bad" I have seen you insult others, and I have seen you discuss with others as thought you are an expert. I do not want to be like you. I want to be honest in my dealings with people for no other reason than they will know exactly who they are dealing with when they interact with me.
        
        No, rather than fight over a toy I will let the other person have it. I have relented to my siblings over toys countless times. I believe I became a book worm to avoid clashes with them, and I still am. Non-competitive to the max. My sanity is more important, though you would not know it from some of my conversations my petty fights online..
        
        But I am a member missionary, but being verbose about it is the last thing I want to be. To me it is like praying,,, it should be done i private and not for one;s glorification: here is my favorite quote:
        
        “It is my hope and my belief that the Lord never permits the light of faith wholly to be extinguished in any human heart, however faint the light may glow. The Lord has provided that there shall still be there a spark which, with teaching, with the spirit of righteousness, with love, with tenderness, with example, with living the Gospel, shall brighten and glow again, however darkened the mind may have been. And if we shall fail so to reach those among us of our own whose faith has dwindled low, we shall fail in one of the main things which the Lord expects at our hands” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1936, p. 114). J. Reuben Clark
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        There are sick things on the internet. There are sick people too, like yourself.
      - Esther
        
        Boo hoo. Have you taken your meds? You seem out of sorts today. :(
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Do they thing GOD is Infallible?? I know the HE is perfect, never made a mistake and wil never make a mistake, how do Mormons feel about OUR GOD the one wo is the EVERLASTING FATHER?
      - Esther
        
        Of course God is infallible. All we humans are fallible.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Creating Lucifer is the action of an infallible deity?
      - Esther
        
        No, the spirit of Lucifer had agency as well and when Lucifer offered to force the children of men for his own glory, then and only then GOD said no and the war in heaven started, which at the end Lucifer was cast out because he continued to believe that he was right that we should lose our agency and follow him. God would not let him take the agency of man. So in fact, not our Father, but Lucifer created his own Hell,
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Before god created Lucifer and he had the opportunity of "agency", god knew of all the problems Lucifer would do.
        
        Therefore, this infallible deity created an angel knowing full well it would cause him problems?
      - Esther
        
        Blah, blah blah. You have done exactly as I have been warned by reading the Book of Moses and studying agency. Yes, my God wanted his daughters and sons to be free to do whatever they choose. He did not want to be alone in the universe he created, but he did not want his children to be robots. God knows that problems would occur so he made it possible that we solve problems using the excellent brain he gave us, and He gave us His commandments (even the new one — to love one another as He has loved us) to help us avoid the pitfalls set in place by Lucifer who still has his agency to do as he wills. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/11/as-for-me-and-my-house-we-will-serve-the-lord As For Me and My House, We Will Serve the Lord. .
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Knowing that people will make mistakes is one thing. Allowing an angel with power to corrupt people and make sure they burn in hell is completely different.
        If you knew that combining different elements you would create a virus that would kill 99% of humanity, would you create it? If you would, you are more moral than the biblical god. If not, you are as insane as he is presented as being.
      - Esther
        
        The biblical god is definitely a real issue for you and I understand that, it is for me too. but we have a potentially infinite human brain, to solve problems. No I would not make such a moleculke as a virus like AIDs…. some cultures practice biological warfare. We are supposed to be good stewards: http://www.cornwallalliance.org/ The human mind is a treasure that I believe was given to us and when we don't use it, it dwindles away. So we have the tools in our intelligence to solve problems, and we do solve problems. As a chemist, I do not need to know if it is Creationism or Evolution. That is not even discussed in my discipline. It is the biologists who have the issue you are interested in. You don't like it but I am a scientist and I did my best to teach the kids all the basics they need to understand chemistry in their professions. It was intense and I was burned out after almost 10 years doing it. I believe the only way I could sustain the effort was with the knowledge of a loving God at my helm. I told you before my God is a gracious God, but I know full well that :"mercy will not rob justice" I know I have sinned and it is none of your business really. It is between Him and I. Jesus Christ, in the name of the Father, will meter out justice on me that I deserve, and there will also be mercy. I could not do the work I did knowing that I accepted Him and that I served His other children well, which I believe I did. You are not my judge. I am not yours. We should not try to be, but as long as you make claims against me, I must defend myself against them.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the one who has falsely accused me of molesting kids and being gay plus, whatever that idiotic term means. You are the one making false claims against me. Everything I have said that happened between us DID happen between us.
      - Esther
        
        No, you said that in order to punctuate the lies you are telling about me. I said I was worried about your daughter's friends coming over to your house. I also sent you a strength of youth pamphlet of our church because certain situations are delicate between the sexes. If you are going to say that is not true then you are a bigger liar than I thought. I do not have men in my house at all without there being a valid priesthood holder. I could tell you horror stories of young women in the same house as a unmarried older man. And the man was similar in situation as you are. You held me up to ridicule time and time again without investigating my side of the story versus your perfect liberal madam mary rogers. Who is the trash Jeff Dixon? You saw to it I was ridiculed, you degraded me as though you are a gay man who uses but hates women and I still thing the same of you. I repeat: My opinion of you still stands. I don't know you, thought I thought you were a nice person, but I was wrong, and you have continued to treat me like trash.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Why would you be concerned unless I was going to molest them? Idiot
      - Esther
        
        I already sent you this: https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/ForTheStrengthOfYouth-eng.pdf read it and learn something about how the Mormons respect each other and want the best for them… no compromising and delicate things are handled very carefully. You are a cad.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Learn something from you? rotflmao
      - Esther
        
        Learn why many do not trust you alone in the same house with your daughters' high school friends. That's all. I will leave the link for you to see.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the only one to make that slanderous statement. One is not many, loon.
      - Esther
        
        You slandered yourself. You said the word pedophile, not I.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That is all you got? Sad.
      - Esther
        
        You slandered yourself. I did not use the word pedophile. You did. Same way you trashed me for telling you no.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are full of it. You stated I was a threat to minors. You would make Kent proud. I am sure you would explain to him just how wonderful you think he is and how you would demonstrate your compliance to him.
        
        He could explain how he wants to hit atheists in the face and you could be his cheerleader.
        
        He would be happy to comply. After all he is the one who knocked up his girlfriend and then proceeded to attack an abortion clinic when she decided she could not handle giving birth to his spawn. An attack that required the police to restrain him. An attack you applauded, btw. All very Christian acts. Especially, the knocking up of his girlfriend.
        
        So, enough with the false protests of you disliking violence. You loved him beating up the people who worked at the abortion clinic. You applauded his actions.
      - Esther
        
        You could make a fortune writing anti-American books for youR India Indian friends and employers. They love the degenerate stories you make up no doubt.
        
        You came up with the term pedophile for yourself.
        
        You have an argument with Kent Perry. Now you lump me into that! LOL
        
        He told me that you would make a clown out of me if I continued to follow and support you. HE WAS RIGHT.
        
        YOU SAID I APPLAUD HIS VIOLENCE. I DO NOT APPLAUD VIOLENCE. YOU ARE CRAZY.
        
        Now I am beating up people at the abortion clinic. BHAHAHAHAHA. You are insane.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Which says nothing about the fact that everything I stated is true.
        
        When Kent said he attacked the people at the abortion clinic, you applauded his actions.
        
        You applaud violence.
      - Esther
        
        I did no such thing. And guess what? Your attack on my credibility will not stop my exposing you. I fear you not,
        
        You are a liar, in alliance with the father of lies. Your story of Kent is completely false.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        KentPerry Chris • 18 hours ago
        As far as I am concerned atheist's are just a punch in the face waiting to happen
      - Esther
        
        What do I do Jeff Dixon? Why are you blaming me for arguments you are having with him.? I do not approve of what he said, nor do I believe he should commit violence against you!!! I do not believe anyone should commit violence against anyone! You told me I am dead! That should make your Mary very happy!
      - Esther
        
        What is the difference?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am curious. Do you actually believe your lies?
      - Esther
        
        I don't have to make the effort, they are simply not lies I have told about you. You have told many lies about me..
      - Esther
        
        Btw, you applaud violence. You like blaming me for your weaknesses. That is typical of liberals like yourself, always looking for a scapegoat. Madam Mary Rogers supports infanticide, you support her, now of course I am paying for not knuckling under your Kansas City/Chicago gangland methods. You, a scientist? You, a person who knows a scientist when he sees one? I think not.
      - Esther
        
        You mean you and Madam Mary Rogers are killing babies in the abortion clinic
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, sorry, never killed anyone. That is the action of your idol, Kent.
      - Esther
        
        You are insane
      - Esther
        
        You are a liar. That is well documented in page after page on Zionica.
        I never have applauded Kent Perry!
        BUT he foresaw what you would do to me if I supported you. Kent Perry was absolutely right about you. Your are real gangland, aren't you?
        You are the one who applauds violence.
      - Esther
        
        You are a threat to minors.
      - Esther
        
        You are Kansas City/Chicago gangland aren't you?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You trying to learn to talk in Babble?
      - Esther
        
        You are insane.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I know, that logic thing is a real pain in the ass,
      - Esther
        
        Where is your response to my post? You know, you demonstrate with every post you are purely crass. Did you say you are NOT gay? You seem to be indeed one of the old fashioned ones. Very much so. They kind who would kill as look as an intelligent woman with understanding. Do not tell me you do that, that would be another lie.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I provide logic with my responses, something that confuses and bothers you.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        So, what do you do with the facts and logic I showed you? As Gen 1:14 says the Moon and the Sun are for signs, and then you have them BOTH casting shadows on Jewish feasts on years that are significant to Israel. Actually, they've been years of war when Israel has expanded. Now you have a similar situation on 2014. Because of past events forming a pattern, you're guaranteed a very significant event.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The sun and moon are not signs, they are merely astronomical objects.
      - Esther
        
        You provide extrapolations beyond the known regions of knowledge. You do that frequently and call it "logic."
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I point out your stupidity. That is logic.
      - Esther
        
        You point to your own by doing your extrapolations. Any novice of a scientist knows that is against the rules of the scientific method. You are illogic personified.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You discount dating methods shown to be true by chemistry. You are an idiot.
      - Esther
        
        No, there are questions. It is not idiocy to leave open every thing until we know everything. No scientist in his right mind says absolute anything. They are not gods. But you think you are one. That is your fallacy you don't see.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        There are not questions about whether the dating methods obtain valid information. As I said, if are a chemist, you are a terrible one.
      - Esther
        
        Yes there are questions in the complication of the formations and possible contamination from other chemical reactions which are quite common. Chemists do not know everything and never claim absolute knowledge as you use it against others. That is abominable.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That does not change the reality that the methods show millions of years or billions of years, not 5,000 years. You should explain your reservations to your bosses. I am sure they would love to know one of their chemists is an idiot.
      - Esther
        
        YOU are the only idiot between us, billy-boy, and psychotic to boot.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Then tell your bosses that you think that chemical dating methods are useless.
      - Esther
        
        You have no idea the complications involved. You are in fact hilarious in your approach as though you are the man doing the work. YOU are NOT. The work is complicated and each individual problem has individual parameters, an aspect that is over your head. The best example is when you are telling Key what to think.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I never said it was simple. That does not change the reality that numerous dating systems provide similar results. What is sad is that if you are actually a chemist, you are providing this type of shoddy work to your company.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I show you to be a loon. That is not logic, but it is truth.
      - Esther
        
        You fail to address the issue of my comment. Your attacks are childish.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        The outcome is beyond Lucifer. there was a plan which included the purging and cleansing of His Creation. God also knew the solutions and outcome of perfection. Creation was a harvest for the final population of His final kingdom. Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world."
        
        He said: "The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few;"
        Matthew 9:37 (KJV)
        
        "Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."
        Luke 3:17 (KJV)
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Which is irrelevant to the issue that god knew before he created Lucifer that he would turn out evil and help make people go to hell.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        No one is made to do anything. Take yourself for instance. Who's forcing you to be an Atheist but your own choice? You know now that God gave the Jews the land, and gave them Jerusalem, and by logical deduction they will take over the Temple Mount. If you know Scripture as you let me to believe, you understand the eschatological significance of this event. But you choose to continue arguing and denying the existence of God. You know you're going to hell by your own choice. It's on no one, but on your own.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I know nothing of the sort. I do know that you choose to see imaginary happenings and force them into your delusions.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        These are historical and astronomical facts, all scientifically observable. You may kick, scream, and deny, but facts remain facts and true. You don't even need the Bible on this because the Bible has become the facts. You have made a choice.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, I chose logic and reason.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        You call that reason? It really looks like denial to me.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That I do not ascribe to nonsensical writings is not denial, it is reality.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        Tetrads are not nonsense. They're lunar eclipse arrangements tracked and named by scientists at NASA. The last Tetrad will occur in 2014-15. There will not be another for 500 years. The last 2 Tetrads marked wars in Israel where they expanded their territory taking first the land and then Jerusalem, just as prophesied in Ezekiel 36, 37. I say, logically, the next and last Tetrad will mark Ezekiel 38-39 war where God will intervene and once again Israel will have victory and I think will take the Temple Mount starting the clock for "you know what."
        
        This is as logical as 3-2-X, X=1.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That you think the bible references the events in question is the delusion, Max.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        You're in total denial of observable and historical facts.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        When Jesus does not come by the time you die, remember this conversation. Your god is a myth. He is not coming down to earth today, tomorrow or ever.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        "Famous las words."
        
        Chavez cursed Israel in 2010. There were blogs in 2010 already predicting his "untimely" death. You would've been on the wrong side of the conversation.
        
        We could've had a similar conversation in 1960 about lunar eclipses in 1967 and you would've been on the wrong side when 1967 came and Israel took Jerusalem. We're talking now about Israel taking the Temple Mt. next year.
        
        By the way, we're talking about Israel, a small but powerful nation that beats every odd of existing given their circumstances.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Chavez was a believer. He may not have believed exactly as you did, but he believed.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        Aaron son's were believers. Demons believe. Mat 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
        
        But, you're correct, Chavez didn't believe as I do. At least he didn't believe Gen 12:3.
        
        Can you comment on the rest of the posting?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The country was backed by the USA, which was the undisputed global leader at that point. Israel did not beat any odds.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        They had a civil war and various other wars without US assistance repeating other biblical accounts where they defeated their enemies while being outnumbered. Even if we regard US support, it's God's plan. US will not support them forever, though. Bush whimped out with the Saudi King and Obama's lack of support is telegraphed loud and clear. The Revelation of Jesus Christ means that at some point it will be direct intervention and not through other humans.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        The Jews fought a civil war in 48 which became a full war against No intervention Americana. I don't think US intervened in 67 either. Support has more monetary and training than military. Even if it was it was God's plans.
      - Dave
        
        See Jeff you made a choice not to believe and chose logic!! But point to make is that your NOT being ligical NOW!! And NOT understanding or willing to try.
        God make the rules even for himself!! He gave US Free will, so that we will LOve him for what he is and NOT to force us to love him!! The same with Luciefer He create him to be Gods right hand but problem arose because Luciefer want to take away free will and have us as slaves to Him!! But because of the God said your gone.
        God even Follows His own rules But Luciefer does NOT!!
        THAT what God wants us to do is to chose and USE our free will wisely and willingly love HIM on our own.
        That what YOUR NOT getting!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How goes the lawsuit with your crack legal team? I would expect they have it about wrapped up by now?
      - Esther
        
        Lucifer never lost his agency. He still has it.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        It would've been infallible if you had no choice or alternative to being an Atheist. Everyone in Heaven will be there because of choice and will continue to be there by choice. You will burn in hell together with your peers because you made a choice, a God given ability to rationalize and make a choice. Every day you get up and at some point in the day you decide whom can I oppose today?
        
        Once it's all settled, out of His infallible action to Create, He will gather those who chose to be with Him.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have no choice in being an atheist. You cannot make yourself believe something you do not think is true.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        But you don't know and you chose to reject Him. God placed the Sun and the Moon and coordinated the orbits and rotations and said in Gen 1:14 that they would be signs, indicators, if you will.
        
        The Tetrads of 1949 and 1967 indicate that it was God's plan, will, and design that the Jews would recover the land after almost 2000 years and also Jerusalem in '67. The next Tetrad is in 2014-15. It is logical that Israel will take over the Temple Mount. There's no room for any other possibility. This also indicate that we're treading on end time scenarios just as the Bible says.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I know what the bible says about god and therefore I know the biblical god is an impossibility.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        What I just told you about the Tetrads which converge specifically with Jewish feast days and major events which were prophesied 2500 years prior is also impossible. So, I agree. The Bible does say impossible things about God Who speaks to us from outside our time domain.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You will never see Jesus return Mex.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        My wife saw Him and I felt His presence in a situation we had in the 80s.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, then he has already come back. So, all your predictions about current events are off by 30 years.
      - Mex Seiko
        
        Are you trying to be silly?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Who me?
      - Mex Seiko
        
        You know that an Epiphany is not the 2nd coming. So, either you're just being silly or are truly ignorant. Prophesy says that there will be an increased activity in visions and dreams. The 2nd coming will be visible from everywhere. Possibly televised where every eye shall see.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You will never see a televised vision or dream. They are specific to the delusional person having them.
      - DAve
        
        Jeff it is a CHOICE to be a athiest, and You have choosen it!!. You flat out will NOT believe in the Bible which was inspired by God.
        So Yes You made a choice Not to Listen OR learn!! You MADE a choice to tell your family members that the Bible is a book of lies, BUT in Fact in is NOT!!
        So Jeff My Friend you are speaking a Lie now by your comment that you have NO choice, But in fact you already made it!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, it is not a choice. it is merely what I believe.
      - Esther
        
        Wrong. You chose to destroy people every day. You seek out those in life who will suit your purpose in the very act that is expected of godless people. And you then proceed to execute.
      - Esther
        
        He's right. You make choices every day who you will destroy
      - Esther
        
        Both you and Lucifer, yes unfortunately he did. War in Heaven: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/war-in-heaven?lang=eng You love to incite violence. You should read this to get some perspective on where you are going.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, your idol Kent is the one who loves violence. I prefer logic and reason.
      - Esther
        
        No, as usual, you are wrong. Instead, you incite violence and when the threat of violence touches you, you blame others. Others are to blame for all the things YOU set in place to begin with, and by no stretch of the imagination can you relieve yourself of your responsibility. I know it first hand in my encounter with you on Facebook. You relieve yourself of responsibility because you know I will not expose private conversations to the public as you most certainly would. You are responsible for twisting it all to your own purpose. You hate people who see you for what you really are.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Creating Lucifer was not a mistake?
      - Mex Seiko
        
        T'was not a mistake. Lucifer was the most beautiful angel.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, if by beauty you mean something that will become the most evil entity that ever existed.
      - NTT
        
        Gag a magit
      - Glen S
        
        I would not have phrased it in this way, but you are absolutely correct NTT! The idea that humans were created and should live always striving to be gods is blasphemous.
        
        God created us to worship and serve the Kingdom – NOT as slaves but rather as His children. We will never by all knowing, all powerful, or omnipresent for we will never know all that God knows.
        
        And the idea that God himself is ever changing. I think I finally understand the fallacy with which Mormons dismiss the Biblical prohibitions against extra-Biblical prophecy and revelation. They must believe that if God can change (evolve if you will), then prophecies and wisdom from thousands of years ago can be dismissed today. So, their "leaders" can proclaim whatever they like.
        
        Some thoughts for the day.
      - Vladimir
        
        When God told us He was unchanging, He was addressing His dealings with us, not His form.
      - Glen S
        
        Care to demonstrate this falsehood with actual revealed text rather than a work of false prophesy?
      - Vladimir
        
        Care to rebut it, Glen S, without assumptions?
      - Bighoss
        
        Oh-h-h-h! So now the Mormon "explanation" of "progression" is not that we CAN become as God is NOW, but that we cCAN'T become like he will be in the future, since God had a head start! And the Mormon nuttiness continues to progress to ever more absurd levels of nuttiness!
      - Vladimir
        
        And the education of Bighoss continues, albeit very slowly. Mull on eternal progression for a while and get back to me.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Just how does an all powerful and all knowing god get more powerful or learn more?
      - Mex Seiko
        
        Satan said we would be "like" God. Isn't that Mormon doctrine.
    - Esther
      
      Our founder said we do not have to believe what is not true.
      
      Re: Our progression to be like Our Father, even with brains the capacity of intelligence the same as the Father, we could never become as brilliant or more brilliant than Him. His intelligent is infinite. Ours is just begining. How is that so hard to understand? Of course our Father wants us to be as much as possible like him but since he has given us agency He will never take it away, thus by his own rules He cannot control our individual development. We are left to decide things like that for ourselves. He wants us to choose to come back to Him, as any loving Father. And He has given us exactly how we can in the plan of salvation. He will never force us and He absolutely hates to see anyone force us to do anything. He wants us to freely decide to come back to Him.
    - Esther
      
      You teach anti-Mormon literature. Therefore, you think you know, but you know nothing of the true Church of Jesus Christ.
      - petroskhan
        
        If you'll recall, Esther, the last post I addressed to you informed you that I was going to strive to be as polite to you as possible. However, in several of your recent posts, you have seen fit to abandon civility, logic and polite discourse in favor of childish insults. I am responding to this particular post of yours only to point this out, and attempt once again to draw you into a mature, civil discussion.
        
        You state that I "teach anti-Mormon literature". Ignoring for the moment the grammatical flaws of that statement, would you care to elaborate how quoting Mormon sources such as the BoM, PoGP, Jod, etc. is "anti-Mormon literature"?
        
        Also, if it's not too much trouble, since you claim I know nothing of the LDS Church, yet have read a great deal of their material (possibly more than YOU), and you have no way to measure what I know, on what do you base your assumption that I "know nothing"? The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean that I don't know something, it just means I don't agree.
        
        I look forward to your response.
      - Vladimir
        
        You've read the first four chapters of the Book of Mormon.
      - petroskhan
        
        Indeed I have, in addition to many other chapters. I have, thus far, read from 1 Nephi to 4 Nephi. I have not yet read the last three books, Mormon, Ether and Moroni.
        
        I hope you're not under the impression that since we only discussed the first three chapters of 1 Nephi, those are the only ones I've read. To make such an assumption would be a rather severe error in logic; I frankly expect better (and more) from you, based on prior discussions.
        
        God Bless, Vald. Have a wonderful day.
      - Glen S
        
        Just what petroskhan or the rest of us have or have not read is immaterial. I have read my Bible, and my Bible points out on more than one occasion (but most notably in Galatians 1) that any attempt to add to or take away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be exposed and rooted out.
        
        Secondly, what has your comment to do with Esther's repeated departure from civility? As has been pointed out to her on more than one occasion, her poor behavior here and elsewhere reflects ill on your beliefs.
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    Vlad,,, I read the New Tesament, It says" those who are led by the Holy Ghost are God's children, Lucifer, is a created , spoke into existence being, (Angel ), Since Jesus has always existed , Lucifer is no more the brother to Jesus than the man in the moon.
    Vlad tell us the age when your men, scuse me your boys, become Deacons? And your Elders, what a joke
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      By the way Vlad,,, Years ago it was the ANGEL Moroni that visited Joe, someone int L D S must have read Gal. 1:7-9 and said ooooops, so now the latest rendition on the prophet Joe is Moroni is a resurrected being that appeared to him. What blasphemy !!!!!!!!!!!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I thought with god all things are possible?
      - Vladimir
        
        A resurrected being cannot be an angel? Don't agree with you on that one, Pastor Dwayne.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I did not say what you claim I said, I said, at one time Mormonism called Morioni an Angel, But apparently some Mormons must have read Gal. 1:7-9 and said oooops, there is some bad guy angels out there that teach contrary to the Bible. So lets take out the angel part of Moroni and make him a resurrected being . that way our story will be more believable
      - Vladimir
        
        Let me see if I can help you understand what our church teaches on this subject, Pastor Dwayne.
        
        We believe that there are only Heavenly Father and His children, e.g. His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and the rest of us children. Angels, Cherubim, etc. are not some other life forms, but are offices, titles, ranks or whatever, assigned to certain of Heavenly Father's children, us. Whether we served in these "callings" before we came to earth or after death it makes no difference.
        
        We read of the war in heaven before the earth was created where mention is made of Lucifer and his "angels", in this case angels refers to "followers". They were cast out of heaven and will not progress further. They do not serve God, obviously.
        
        Moroni was a true and faithful servant of the Lord during his life and is currently serving as an angel. He has delivered some messages already and if I'm not mistaken, he is slated to deliver at least one more.
      - millergroup2
        
        Vlad, this was an interpretation that I seem to have missed. Can you please post the verses from the bible that you derived your interpretation from? We are curious as to where these stories come from.
      - Vladimir
        
        I made no claim that truth is limited to the Bible as you are implying. I believe the Bible is true but has no claim on exclusivity of the Truth. Mormons believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
        
        You cannot accept that so you call us a cult. Does that about sum it up?
      - millergroup2
        
        Yes that sums it up in a nutshell. Outside the word of God, there are no truths.
      - Vladimir
        
        Millergroup2, when you say, "God's Word" or "the word of God", you are actually talking just about the Bible.
        
        When I speak of God's word, I am speaking of what comes forth from the mouth of God. EVERYTHING that comes forth from the mouth of God.
        
        So just a portion of God's word is not sufficient for me. If God speaks, it is important to me. I cannot disregard any of His revelations because others say He stopped when men finished compilation of the Bible.
        
        I would advise you to consider the paucity of evidence that the Bible is the end of God's revelations to us.
    - Vladimir
      
      Pastor Dwayne, you are entitled to your interpretations of scripture. I evidently don't share some of them.
  - Esther
    
    Vladimir, you give hope to humanity and they don't even know it. I am so glad the culture of Mormon is on the rise. Maybe if they become immersed in it some of the good will rub off on their demented souls. They sure need it.
  - Pastor Dwayne
    
    What pray tell is the triune god composed of according to nicea???
    - Vladimir
      
      Google it, Pastor Dwayne, and then explain it to the rest of us, if you can.
  - Esther
    
    Thank you Vladimir.
- Esther
  
  I am not deceived. I am a memeber of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a true shelter from the storms of today.
Duke1CA

Mormons like Romney are only considered mainstream because people are ignorant of their core beliefs and practices. Recent LDS P.R. material has sought to make Mormonism appear to be just another Christian denomination, but this deception can only be sustained for so long. Reasonable people who start to investigate it will quickly learn that it's still a cult, mainly because it claims to have unique revelation and, thus, that all other Christian traditions are false (while legitimate Christian denominations recognize that even groups with very different theology in many areas are still true churches). Some will actually still be drawn to this because the arrogance of cults that "only we have the whole truth" appeals to prideful people. The LDS church can have such people. Now, this is not to say that there aren't well-meaning Mormons. But, eventually, such people will need to leave this church unless it fully renounces its cultic beliefs and practices.
- Jerry R Wood
  
  problem is there are not that many "reasonable" people left in America.
- http://www.facebook.com/cngiffo55 Carl Gifford
  
  As a Latter Day Saint myself, I can say that we are not just another Christian denomination, However, we view all of God's children as our brothers and sisters and desire them to have an even greater knowledge of our Savior Jesus Christ and our Eternal Father in Heaven. Most of the Christian denominations have a portion of the truth, some more than others. We only seek to increase the knowledge and understanding of God and our Savior. In times past that was done through fasting and prayer and living the commandments of God. Revelation from God is how anyone can obtain a testimony and knowledge of their Savior Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven. We believe in revelation from God and that through our faithfulness and obedience to His commandments we can come to know the truth of all things.. all things pertinent to our eternal salvation. Many are called but few are chosen. Even LDS members understand that Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, after all WE can do. For us, it's not a matter of merely professing to believe but rather showing faith by actively participating in His work here on earth of our own free will and choice.
  - Texas Molly Mormon
    
    Carl – we can try to share but unless they read & listen with sincereity they will not believe either of us. We know that Jesus Christ is our personal Savior. We know we should love those who do not agree with us. I hope they will accord us the same right & not falsely judge as some have done on here.
    - http://www.facebook.com/people/Scott-Todd/1424651317 Scott Todd
      
      Several passages in Isaiah contradict LDS teaching of henotheism (many gods but only one we're responsible to, for the uninitiated)- 43:10; 44:6 and 8; and 45:5,6. We may both be wrong but there's no way we can both be right.
      - Vladimir
        
        Isaiah 43:10 implies that there was a period BEFORE God and there shall be a period AFTER God. ".. before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.." Best not to apply that interpretation to your argument.
        
        Isaiah 44:6 and 8 and 45:5,6 is informing Israel to stop forming graven images and worshiping them. The Israelites were the ones creating gods. They were also in Babylon at the time surrounded by idols.
        
        None of this excludes the existence of God the Father or God the Holy Ghost.
    - Bighoss
      
      One can read & listen with all the sincerity in the world. But when one reads the fatuous and laughable tripe in the Book of Mormon, one's sincerity compels one to the conclusion that, "This thing is an absurd mess!"
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        But when you read that in the bible people were able to get cattle to make striped calves by putting striped sticks in front of the cattle that were mating your conclusion is that it is a wonderful example of logic?
      - petroskhan
        
        Hate to intrude in your discussion, but read further on in that section, and come to this:
        
        "Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am.' "And he said, 'Lift up, now, your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 'I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.'" (Genesis 31:11-13)
        
        God, seeing the injustice perpetrated upon Jacob, altered the appearance of the livestock Himself. Without the sticks.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So what? He very well may have decided to help out. But he already allowed Jacob to believe that placing striped sticks will allow his cattle to produce striped calves. According to the bible, god does not create confusion.
        
        1 Corinthians 14:33
        
        New International Version (NIV)
        
        33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
      - petroskhan
        
        Seems to me as though God cleared up Jacob's "confusion", in regards to his stick theory.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Besides, the verse does not say that god changed the appearance of the livestock. It says that in a dream, Jacob saw that the goats which were mating were striped, speckled, and mottled. Nowhere does it say that god changed their appearance.
      - petroskhan
        
        I think you need to read that again, Jeff.
        
        The livestock appeared to be of one kind, striped or whatever. APPEARED to be. It was only in the dream, or vision, that Jacob saw them as they really were.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I think you need to reconsider what a dream is. People have all sorts of visions in dreams that have no basis in reality.
      - petroskhan
        
        Okay, I'll reconsider what a dream is. As long you reconsider where this particular dream came from.
      - Vladimir
        
        Your book review is an incentive to read the Book of Mormon, just to see if it is "an absurd mess".
- aceituna
  
  They need to study the last 3 or 4 verses of Revelation.
far2right

At their core, there is no difference between the Mormon and the free-will self-righteous Southern Baptist Convention.

I would prefer to have a whole flock of Mormon's as neighbors as I would one Southern Baptist.

If this country must continue to be given over by God to false worship, may He be pleased to supplant the false, free-will, self-righteous Southern Baptist Convention with Mormonism.
- Evermyrtle
  
  You have not read Joseph Smith's writings or you would not saay that, try it.
  - Esther
    
    You are evermuddled Evermyrtle.
  - far2right
    
    Does not matter. I was a Southern Baptist and I know enough about the LDS.
    
    As I said, at the core of their respective belief systems, there is no difference between how Mormons believe they are saved and how Southern Baptists believe they are saved.
    
    Each person from both groups will stand before the Judge of the Universe claiming they did what He required for salvation.
    
    They will all hold up their self-righteous obedience to holy God who will utterly reject their works.
    
    And each will be utterly astonished when they hear the Lord of Glory say, "I never knew you".
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      and how are southern baptists saved????? please answer
      - far2right
        
        Pretend Pastor,
        
        If the Lord Jesus Christ saved any Southern Baptist (or Mormon or any person such as yourself who is lost in self-righteous religion), then in God's timing the Spirit will sovereignly grant him or her the new birth, and graciously give the gifts of faith and repentance to turn away from their free-will, works religion, declare it false, and embrace the Gospel of God's sovereign gracious salvation which is according to the Scriptures.
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  Romans 8:20 " For man was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who gave him Free Will in the hope he would choose rightly"
  - Esther
    
    And far2right is doing just that.
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      dah, far2right is saying southern Bap. have a free will to choose yes or no to receive the salvation of Jesus Christ.
- Esther
  
  YES, MY GOOD MAN, far2right! I know exactly what you mean. Glad to hear you on this topic. Please tell us more! They — the folks in this forum — talk about the leaders in Salt Lake in a most demeaning way, yet they will not even respond to a question of their leader.
  - far2right
    
    Let me be clear.
    
    What I am saying is that the form of worship of the Southern Baptist is every bit as false as that of the LDS. At the core of their beliefs, there is no difference. Both are self-righteous.
    
    Both feign worship of God through a false gospel that is no where to be found in scripture.
    
    As good as Romney is as a person, unless God converts them both, he will suffer an eternity in Hell every bit as much as Charles Stanley.
    - Esther
      
      The advantage is the LDS Church is apolitical and who knows what Mitt Romney "believes"… It is obvious that he is a genius when it comes to negotiation… working with other people who have ideas… that is the crux of my support for him, and not that he is "Mormon" I am a conservative constitutional republic proponent and feel whatever his "problem" is when it comes to his personal religion it has NO consequence on the world stage, just as NO religion does. I simply defend his right to declare whatever his religions is. And, I a grateful for anyone who promotes this aspect of USA and what it is supposed to be. The reason we now have — once again, the specter of Owebama in the WH is due to these Richard Land SBC people. If I got it wrong I apologize. I hope you realize more now why I reacted when I saw your post.
      
      I have no clue who Charles Stanley is. Should I? Thank you for your clarification.
      - far2right
        
        I agree. I am hearing that a lot of evangelical "christians" simply stayed home because they could not bring themselves to vote for a Mormon.
        
        My point (and clarification) is that at the core of their respective belief systems, there is no difference between the Southern Baptist and the Mormon.
        
        Both are works-based forms of false worship.
        
        So, if is true such people refused to vote on religious grounds, it is an absurdity when both share a common theological view point on the most important spiritual matter regarding the salvation of mankind.
      - Esther
        
        Yes to a point you are right. But these two groups have some very real differences. I was just trying to explain one to acituna on this page.
      - far2right
        
        Their respective differences are but differing gradations of a false gospel.
        
        Both are rooted and grounded in free-will and works.
        
        Both reduce the Lord of Glory down to the level of a mere man.
        
        The So. Baptist will let Christ be the Sovereign God over all the universe.
        
        Except when it comes to the salvation of sinners, He is summarily dethroned in their minds and hearts.
      - Vladimir
        
        I can't speak for what the Baptists believe, but I can address with some accuracy what my church teaches me. You claim that the Mormon church reduces, "…the Lord of Glory down to the level of a mere man."
        
        You are wrong. My church teaches just the opposite, Heavenly Father is working to raise up His children to godhood. Similar to a good earthly father working to prepare his children to be a good parent someday.
      - far2right
        
        Your church denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Jehovah of the Old Testament. You make the Lord of Glory out to be a lesser god, inherently inferior to God the Father.
        
        The Scriptures declare God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit to be one.
        
        One in essence, one in purpose, one in providence.
        
        In his incarnation, the Lord Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of His glory in order to finish the eternal counsel of the Godhead.
        
        He finished it. But you deny it.
        
        In the only true body of the Scriptures, the Lord Jesus Christ plainly declared Himself to be the eternal Jehovah who spoke through Isaiah the prophet. What? Did that one somehow get by you?
        
        By accepting external false satanic writings such as the book of mormon, you deny the eternal deity of Jehovah Jesus.
        
        Your wicked form of worship seeks to make the Lord of Glory out to be nothing more than a mere man endowed with some godlike powers.
        
        At best your little jesus is a mere angelic brother of satan.
        
        Your form of worship is repugnant and to be despised by the true elect of God.
        
        And believe me, your religion is truly most disgusting to the righteous.
        
        We mock your religion and your little jesus.
        
        We do so confidently because he only exists in your imagination.
- petroskhan
  
  No difference except Mormons follow a false prophet, adhere to a book that contradicts the Bible, and revere a leader who believed he could become the equal of God.
  
  Yeah…no real differences.
  - far2right
    
    And Southern Baptists worship a god of their own imagination.
    
    Only they read the word of God and twist it to suit their own predilections.
    
    They suppose that God gives everyone a choice to decide their eternal estate.
    
    They will be amazed when they appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
    
    Again, at the core of their beliefs, there is no difference between the Mormon and the Southern Baptist.
    
    Both will be standing side by side at the judgment before they are summarily cast into Hell.
Texas Molly Mormon

One thing about those who claim to be "traditional" Christians need to quit bearing false witness against The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. I used to be a Southern Baptist. My parents had a fit when I joined but over the years they came to say it was a wonderful faith & were thankful I had found the turht. You have never been to an LDS church service nor gone on our website mormon.org. You only go to the anti-Mormon sites & believe the false teachings preached from your pulpits. We are more conservative than any of you & put ourselves in the line of fire on social issues to protect marriage & life. We have taken the persecution, job loss, vandalism & arson for standing up for tradtional marriage that many of you didn't even try to do. How would you like to lose a job because of your faith? I have. Not only is it illegal but it is wrong & not a very Christian thing to do. You've taken our votes for conservatives & the GOP for granted. I invite any of you to attend LDS church services. You will be treated with loving kindness as Christ set as an example for all of us. I admit we are not the so-called traditional Christain church. We are not based on creeds or that were made up by man. The church is based on the Christianity of the New Testament as it was established by Christ & his Apostles as written in the King James Version of the Bible. Maybe it is a good thing Obama was re-elected. We haven't learned to be humble before the Lord. Bless all of you & please don't act like the Sadducees & Pharisees who judged Christ in judging another faith. We all need to be better than that if we are followers of Christ
- millergroup2
  
  You mean you left a bible believing church to become a Mormon? Go back to your church, and listen, study the word of God. You need to start over again bud.
  - Texas Molly Mormon
    
    Miller – I joined THE Bible believing Church. I am happy & blessed. Please be kind & not judge. Once again – attend an LDS church service. You will be pleased at what you see & hear. My Baptist relatives who've attended felt right at home.
    - millergroup2
      
      On the contrary, I am being very kind. It is my job as a Christian to expose the Mormon Doctrine for what it is………a cult.
    - http://twitter.com/ezek37 Eileen Karan
      
      I have been to a mormon church and read the mormon book and it is a fantasy.
      - Esther
        
        You are a cult, madam. Learn to respect people's beliefs and they will respect yours.
    - Esther
      
      Take a huge step away from your faith and join the PETROSKHAN CULT at his house where he will indoctrinate you just as Jim Jones or Richard Land of the SBC. Millergroup2 will do the same thing. There are lots of wanna be Joseph Smiths in this forum. Just pick one. They are pretty jealous of Joseph Smith; Joseph's story is believed by too many people for their tastes.
- Evermyrtle
  
  Evidently you do not have a clue what Joseph Smith taught these people. Before you swallow the bullet look up his writings and read, and read, and read. That is the most awful blasphemy that I have read. Most people have not a clue what he wrote and taught. You need to know.
  
  Mormons, all of yu need to look up that stuff and see if you want to follow this ant-GOD fool.
  - Texas Molly Mormon
    
    I think I know better than you what the Prophet Joseph taught. I have read more than you will know. I took Old Testament & New Testament more than once in college. I also read it regularly along with the Book of Mormon. Once again please do not bear false witness. It isn't Christian. I am thankful my Baptist relatives are kind, loving & accepting as true Christians should be.
    - http://twitter.com/ezek37 Eileen Karan
      
      You are in a cult.
      - Esther
        
        You are a cult.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        You are in league with the Devil Doc Esther. It is so easy to see that. Along with your hero Jeff. But don't let that bother you.
      - Esther
        
        Joe Anzoletti. Still mad that I have a doctorate? I think we all know what you think. No, I am not a 5point Calvinist as you are and your other friends who hate Joseph Smith, who smelled you miles away and absconded with his family! Yes, I know the real reason Joseph Smith did not join your heinous religion.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        You have superb skills in English Doc. Similar to your skill in textual criticism of the Scriptures. It is sad that the best you can do with your "doctorate" is sit at the keyboard and try to outdo Jeff. That, in and of itself, being too easy to accomplish at any rate–but apparently not for you.
      - Esther
        
        I have stacks of you philosophies-of-men religious books, Joe. They are very easy to come by and very entertaining. Mostly they are the best of the biblical scholarship, really. No doubt you would recognize the authors names. And I do treasure them. I have heard many lectures in the reformed tradition, but I find it so stringent. And I love the people of the Mormon church. But no, I do not compete with Jeff. I have never done the kind of things here that he does, nor in the way that he does them. Unfortunately, the university where I worked restructured and being one of the newer teachers, I was "let go"… so I do have much more time than most, though I do have lots of re-training to do, for my new field. I don't stop. But that's okay, I have been a good little beaver. And I will have a major really good change very soon, near several large universities, my favorite environment, but never working for one again, I hope. It is very hard work in my field. I recall, I was also nice enough to answer all the questions you all asked me in good faith. I have a clear conscience. I have stood the multifaceted waves of adversity from your group quite well, yes, I have lost a few good nights of sleep over it, but I learned to work 24/7 in grad school, no problem. You will know about working around the clock, if ever you reach for the doctorate; it is not trivial. It is good life preparedness.
      - Esther
        
        Jeff doesn't buy into the meme at all so your reference to him here is meaningless. Try as you like, I am the mother to my children and I have encountered low life like yourself and Petroskhan. I will be the one you need to get by as long as I have children and you slither on the earth.
        
        "You betcha" ~ Sarah Momma Bear Palin
    - petroskhan
      
      "Do not bear false witness."
      
      Okay…Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man as we are, and that we could become gods, equal to God Himself. THAT is blasphemous, and was repeated by Brigham Young and other founders and well-regarded members of the Mormon "faith".
      
      The Book of Mormon directly contradicts the Bible in many places, and on several issues. That's not "false witness", it's a simple statement of fact.
      
      The Book of Mormon is a collection of fiction, written by a man, uninspired by any sort of Divine Authority. Quite simply, it is a book of lies, inspired only by the malicious will of Satan.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        The bible is also a collection of fiction, written by men, uninspired by any sort of divine authority. Satan is a myth and is not behind any plots.
      - petroskhan
        
        That's one opinion, and you're of course entitled to it.
        
        But this is a discussion regarding religion, and whether or not one, claiming to be Christian, fits the bill.
        
        With all due respect, Jeff, your cavalier disregard for God's existence is not germane to the discussion. I don't mean to offend, and I should hope that I've not given that impression, but this is a discussion within certain parameters; your comment falls outside of that, and I am quite afraid that your lack of faith sort of disqualifies you from making any sort of worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
        
        And just to demonstrate, evolution is also a collection of fiction, written by men, uninspired by any sort of authority, divine, logical or otherwise.
      - Jeff Dixon
        
        On the contrary, my position fits into this discussion quite well. Your claims against the Mormons are silly because your faith and the book you believe is the word of god has the exact same issues.
        
        Evolution is certainly written by men. All books are written by men. But the difference is that there is evidence for evolution.
      - Esther
        
        I am delighted to see this "cultural rise" if nothing else but to challenge the supposed truths of the so called Christian religion that petroskhan teaches in his house.
      - petroskhan
        
        Having no idea what we discuss in my home, you do realize, as anyone else reading your inane comment would, that your statement is completely and utterly pointless, don't you?
        
        And Esther, any time you want to actually discuss "truth", you let me know. I can prove, from Scripture, my stand on any issue. Can you do the same? Can you prove (or even discuss) the foundations of YOUR faith? The history of your comments indicates that you can't. I'm betting that's still the case, isn't it, dear?
      - Esther
        
        You have ZERO credibility.
      - Esther
        
        You discuss your cult desires at your house idiot, same as you do here in this forum.
      - petroskhan
        
        Yes, adhering to the Bible is a cult, according to Dictionary of Esther.
        
        You are so clueless…
      - petroskhan
        
        And you know what goes in my house…how?
      - Esther
        
        To others reading this comment: Petroskhan has explained time and time again … he has made it clear what goes on at his house… ad nauseum, I might add.
      - petroskhan
        
        Really? I have? Quote it for us, then. Show us all this "ad nauseum" proof you have.
        
        Unless of course, you're lying. AGAIN.
      - Esther
        
        The audience who have encountered this comment can do their own research on this forum.
      - petroskhan
        
        No, on the contrary…to your contrary…LOL
        
        Your thoughts on the subject of religion are similar to this: Two people are discussing the merits and their preferences of lamb vs. beef. A vegan interjects that neither should be eaten. Should they listen to him?
        
        And saying "there is evidence for evolution" while denying that there is evidence for the existence of God is selective awareness, to put it generously.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You might want to listen to the vegan if the vegan was actually offering better information. Now, that is not to say that I believe that eating meat is bad. It is only an example.
        
        It is hardly selective awareness to say there is evidence for a scientific theory, which 99% of all biologists agree on, while also saying there is no evidence for a god that no one has ever seen or can even agree exists.
      - Esther
        
        The vegan — in this case Madam Rogers — is simply gearing up in the comment to which you referenced. You should look up the comments posted by that person. It seems she dogged me first. Stupid me. And I did not know that until now. Oh, she is the good philosopher, now is she not?
      - Esther
        
        Your idiocy doesn't work, Petroskhan. Get it yet?
      - petroskhan
        
        Hmm…my idiocy doesn't work…and what is so idiotic in what I've written, dear? If you can tear yourself away from your dictionary of insults long enough, I'd love to hear your…umm…"thoughts". Such as they are.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Try just try to answer his questions, then, maybe, he will leave you alone.
        Again Esther,,, when was the last time you laid hands on a sick person and they were healed right in front of you??????
      - Esther
        
        NOT I DWAYNE… don't you read the bible? You tell me.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Just say I have never laid hands on a sick person and they were healed in front of me, Yes the Bible says every believer can lay hands on the sick.
        Oh by the way, I have looked up your link on what mormons, L D S believe. The more I read the more the Holy GHost within me makes me want to Go puke. If you don't understand what that means I will tell you L D S is wrong
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I say you have never actually healed anyone of cancer or leukemia or some disease of that ilk. I say that if you claim you have, you are lying or delusional.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I prayed for a lady about 10 years ago that had cists in her throat area and on her brain in her forehead area she has been to the Doc several times over the years they are still GONE.. A woman had leukemia, and was put into a doctor ordered coma, 3 hours later I prayed for her, 2hrs later she started to come out of the coma. The doc. ordered her to be put in a deeper come , 1 hr. later she died, because of the doc
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Right, she died because of the doctor. I guess your god was not feeling very generous that day. You are truly a loon.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Jeff,, You know it is a shame that more people die in hospitals that people die from taking illegal drugs.
        
        I don't recall ever calling you names. A true sign of a born again person is The Lord cleans up his life, you know I used to cuss more than 100 sailers , the split second Jesus came into my life the cussing left, and never returned, I have put Bud Beer out of business 3 times I haven't drank, since Jesus Saved me, Simply stated , my whole life has been changed by the Lord Jesus, Believe me , you haven't lived life til you live for the Lord Jesus Christ, If it wasn't for living for Jesus , I would be just like you Jeff , living a sick life thinking i'm the happiest man there is
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not call you a name. I said you are mentally imbalanced. Which I will say again. If you believe that your faith healing was more effective than a doctor, you are a loon. The number of people in hospitals that die that were already close to death is very high. The fact that many old people die in a hospital says nothing about whether hospitals are good or bad. It merely shows that old people die.
        
        Let us look at the number of infants that die in childbirth since hospitals came into existence More children live through childbirth today than 100 years ago. Now, that has nothing to do with a god or faith healing. It has to do with the fact that children survive more often when the mother is in a hospital and has access to modern medicine.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I have never said hospitals are bad, however that was people of the same age group as the loonies that took illegal drugs , not people ready to die,
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You did not refer to any groups at all. You merely said that more people die in hospitals than from taking illegal drugs.
        
        Now, you did not reference anything to support that opinion.
      - Esther
        
        I do like Jeff's idea of proof however.
      - Mary
        
        You know a vegan still might have valid input as to how silly it is to quibble about which is better, lamb vs. beef. It is a matter of preferance obviously. My liking pickles while my sister hates them does not have anything to do with the "absolute truth" of whether the food is bad or good.
        
        I personally see all this arguing as petty attempts to feed your egos. What did Jesus say? He said that you will know them (true Christians) by their fruits. He gave just two commandments: Love God and love others as yourself. That's it! If you you follow those rules you can't go wrong.
        
        There are always going to be differences in dogma and the interpretation of the bible. We can't know everything about God and we shouldn't pretend that we do. Judge not lest ye be judged.
        
        I know that I have lost my temper on this forum also. It just hurts me to see people using God as a weapon.
      - petroskhan
        
        "I personally see all this arguing as petty attempts to feed your egos."
        
        I can see where one might get that impression. While I can't answer for anyone else on this forum, my reasons are generally two-fold.
        
        One, I enjoy the challenges to my faith from those with intellectual and "scientific" arguments against it. In defending a position, you get to know your own reasoning better. It's stimulating.
        
        Two, it's fun. This is a hobby for me. Sometimes you run across people who are brilliant, some people who are…not so brilliant. But, if approached the right way, it's always fun.
        
        I do appreciate that you took the time to write what you did. Thank you for sharing your insight. And while I don't agree with everything everyone says, I do consider everything everyone says.
        
        God Bless
      - Esther
        
        Total stupidity.
      - petroskhan
        
        Well, that certainly address the points, and makes your "thoughts" known to us all, sweetie.
        
        Thank you again for this glimpse inside the dazzling mind of a true intellectual.
      - Esther
        
        lol, I sense the tongue in cheek, so all I will say is, it is amazing how much fun these things are, I have nearly split my sides laughing at the antics often, as miserable as you all have tried to make me. Like graduate school, so far, I am a survivor. I do more than good work I also have worked my way through my entire school experience, so doing two things at one time is not easy but I find, still doable.
      - Esther
        
        Dogging me, Madam Rogers .. for Bigcreep?
      - petroskhan
        
        "But the difference is that there is evidence for evolution."
        
        There is also evidence against evolution. And there is evidence for the Bible.
        
        You have made a choice to believe in evolution, despite evidence that contradicts it. I have chosen to believe in the Bible, as I feel the greater weight of the evidence is in support of that position.
        
        It's a matter of choice. We do still have that freedom. For now.
      - Esther
        
        As long as you perform your religious test we are goners.
      - Esther
        
        Petroskhan stop salivating over Jeff. You look like an idiot more and more as time passes.
      - petroskhan
        
        Oh, I'm sorry, didn't realize that disagreeing with someone was "salivating over" him. What would insulting someone be? Swooning?
        
        Once again…Esther redefines English, making it up as she goes.
      - Esther
        
        I know what you are doing, idiot.
      - petroskhan
        
        If you did, you'd log off, and find another forum where your comments are appreciated. Like one for the mentally disturbed, perhaps.
      - Esther
        
        Idiot
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Why do you have to be so nice there Doc?
        If Petroskhan is wrong, in effect there is nothing you need to say.
        Why are you unable to actually point out where he has been wrong in his statements, instead of calumniating? Anyone can come up with the name calling routine. It is my experience that Docs usually do not calumniate.
      - Esther
        
        Joe Anzolotti and Petroskhan… all coming to light alright.
      - Bighoss
        
        Those holding a PhD degree ought to have enough intelligence and analytical talent to actually get down with the subject matter of a debate, Esther, and to defend and advance their views with robust analysis and compelling logic. You are nowhere close to that standard, Esther.
      - Esther
        
        You primed me good when I first entered this forum for the level of intelligence required to participate, don't you remember? I do. You made it crystal clear the level of stupidity is the the highest level allowed or required.
      - Esther
        
        Idiot Petroskhan. I know exactly where you going with your arguments, same as your lectures no doubt at your house as you attempt to supplant Joseph Smith, same as your work to protect a Muslim as President of the United States. Anyone can see those efforts. People are not the idiot you are. Also,you neglect to realize the point that I have young children so I am vigilant, not only in your efforts to diminish me but your interaction with others, in which case, in no way, will my children ever have interaction with your stupid kind. Proof? Ha. People can see you. That's enough.
      - petroskhan
        
        Esther…you're insane, you know that? You are really out there.
        
        Okay…you CONSTANTLY mention the "lectures" and "meetings" at my house. Tell me, Esther, what do you know about what goes on in my home? Anything? No? Then stop making a fool of yourself, spouting off about things of which you are ignorant.
        
        And as for "supplanting Joseph Smith", dear…I have no desire to assume the mantle of false prophet, nor to utter the blasphemies of your founder. He did a fine job of showing how foolish one man could be, and how far vanity could take one man.
        
        And I do love the way you avoid ever attempting to prove a single thing you claim. Very scholarly of you. Never prove anything, just throw out statements, and insult whoever shows the temerity to question the great and all-knowing Esther, goddess of knowledge and truth!!
        
        Oh, yes…and be sure to diligently protect your children from such horrific things in life like curiosity, logic and truth, Esther. Wouldn't want to actually USE their brains. Far better for them to follow Mommy's example of ignoring reality, avoiding truth, throwing out baseless accusations and just insulting anyone who questions you.
        
        If you weren't so comical, you'd be tragic.
      - Esther
        
        YES, I am out there to expose your nefarious purposes PETROSKHAN. I intend to leave my children a cleaner world not one that is replete with your influence.
        
        "You betcha" ~ Sarah Momma Bear Palin
      - petroskhan
        
        If by "cleaner" you mean filled with your prejudicial hatred, vehement opposition to truth, and spiteful harangues against those who follow the Word of God, then I pity both you and your children.
        
        You are a very bad person, Esther. You have no love of God in your heart, and seek only to spit out your venomous hatred at every opportunity.
      - Esther
        
        Ask your 5 points people if that is true, idiot.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        "nefarious"–an extremely misused word by the LDS. If you follow the Mormons at all, you will see that quite easily. It is similar to the use of "elder" for the youth that come up attempting to convince you with the so called "Book of Mormon."
      - Esther
        
        Such criticism is expected from 5 Points Calvinists.
      - Esther
        
        HA … PETROSKHAN SAYS "With all due respect" !!! You are such a fraud. That is so classic. Your methods are textbook, you liar. You don't mean a word of it and not only do I know it, one of the most respected people of the subject of your dementia, knows it.
      - petroskhan
        
        Saying "with all due respect" does not state how much respect, if any, I feel is due, does it?
        
        Calling me a liar again, dearie? Point out the lie, or admit that you're lying…again.
        
        And I HAVE to ask…"one of the most respected people on the subject of your dementia…" How many "respected people" are there? And my alleged "dementia" is actually a "subject"? Is that the field of study in which you earned your PhD, Esther? My mental issues? Wow…I'm honored…I never realized that I was a field of study.
      - Esther
        
        You will have to read Jeff's favorite author. It is too good to just give away free the way you like it. BTW, you have already been told.
      - petroskhan
        
        Sorry…no furtherance of the topic has been noted; no reply warranted.
      - Esther
        
        Evasion of the topic where you are the case study. Hmmm… I am surprised there.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        only in your very dim imagination and intelligence.
      - Esther
        
        Evermuddled, You are the epitome of dimness and truly the ultimate demise of Christianity.
      - petroskhan
        
        "God treasures His son, Jeff.." And you got this from Him personally, we are to presume? God approves of Jeff's denial of His existence? Really? Care to prove that, Esther?
      - Esther
        
        Again, Petroskhan and Evermuddled, have ZERO credibility with me.
      - petroskhan
        
        I'm astonished that you can even spell the word credibility. You're a buffoon, and every post only substantiates that observation more and more.
        
        Thanks for making my case for me.
      - Esther
        
        Super idiot. No one wants to join your cult.
      - petroskhan
        
        Keep going, Esther. You're constantly proving everything I say about Mormons for me. Keep blasting away…
      - petroskhan
        
        Coming from someone as brain damaged as you are…that means absolutely nothing.
      - Esther
        
        wishful thinking on your part
      - petroskhan
        
        The only "wishful thinking" I am indulging in involves you opening your heart to the Holy Spirit, and turning aside from that blasphemer you idolize.
      - Esther
        
        I will never be a member of your covern
      - petroskhan
        
        What the heck is a "covern"?
        
        What sort of graduate program skips basic English, Esther? Clown college?
      - Esther
        
        You must have skipped elementary school. It is in the dictionary. Do you know what that is?
      - petroskhan
        
        Covern? The word is "coven", you dull-witted imbecile! Look it up. You grow more pathetic with each post, you know that?
      - Esther
        
        Such perfection, no mortal can match. Is this a good example: "How is your coven at your house coming along?" I meant that one. YES!
        
        My excuse: I never ever used that word on anyone before!
      - petroskhan
        
        Your comment does not further the discussion. No reply warranted.
      - Esther
        
        I have been inferring this for days, Idiot. 'Bout time you get the message.
      - Esther
        
        "Vampire Covens are groups of at least three vampires living together." http://twilightsaga.wikia.com/wiki/Coven Truly, you can extrapolate what I meant about you and you house gatherings from there.
      - petroskhan
        
        ROFL
        
        Now you're going to define words according to a Twilight website? TWILIGHT?!?!
        
        LOL
        
        What are you, 13? Grow up, you bimbo. The only thing I can "extrapolate" from your reference now is that you are woefully immature, and completely mentally incompetent.
        
        And just, FYI, anyone who goes around claiming to possess any sort of education beyond high school would probably be more convincing by sticking to accepted, mainstream definitions of words…not a Twilight wiki.
        
        And I feel compelled to remind you once again, since your memory is about adequate as your education and IQ, you have no experience with what goes on in my house. You know NOTHING about it. Not one thing. Your constant attempts to belittle something about which you are totally ignorant does nothing but showcase your ineptitude, and completely non-Christian (and non-Mormon, for that matter) hatred of someone about whom you know almost nothing. If you want to salvage any sort of semblance of dignity, then my advice to you would be to attack the issues I've raised, and my criticisms of Mormonism. You won't have any better luck, since I've only told the truth, but at least you would be talking about something where you have some small degree of knowledge.
        
        Otherwise, you will succeed in only one thing. Continuing to look like a complete and utter fool. If that's your goal, carry on, soldier.
      - Esther
        
        I have no liking for pop culture. You wanted a definition I gave it to you. The one thing I can absolutely testify is of the vacuous nature of your beliefs so much so removed from Christ or the Holy Spirit that it is frightening. There are no words. I hope sincerely that you find a good minister and speak to him. Reformed Seminaries if you are close to one, is a joy to attend. I recommend their classes. Excellent.
      - petroskhan
        
        Now that is actually an interesting comment…
        
        " the vacuous nature of your beliefs so much so removed from Christ or the Holy Spirit that it is frightening."
        
        All you know about my beliefs is what I've told you, and what I have told you time and again is that I believe in the Bible, and adhere to its teachings. Are you going to contend that the Bible is "removed from Christ or the Holy Spirit"? If so, I don't think you've got much of a leg to stand on with that one. You have, in some manner beyond my comprehension, formulated my belief in the Bible into meaning that I am somehow not following Christ, whose teachings are found in that very book.
        
        I would also like to point out, that at no time have you ever qualified this stance of yours, nor the reasons for the insulting comments in regards to my faith. You seem content to simply lash out with unqualified venomous comments, spitting your hatred forth as though on some holy crusade; the question I would ask you is simple, should you care to answer it: Why do you think I am your enemy? I follow the Bible, and its teachings, to the best of my knowledge and ability. How does that make me the bad guy your posts are directed against?
        
        You CLAIM to follow the Book of Mormon. Now, I don't believe in that book, and I can clearly show why, with references both from the Book of Mormon itself, and external sources verified by a wide variety of experts. My reasons against the Book are solid, not based on opinion or conjecture. I have read the Book of Mormon, contrary to what Vlad and others might think. In point of fact, I actually own multiple copies of the Book, one original 1830 version, and a more current copy (around 4 years old). My objections to the veracity of the Book of Mormon are based not on ignorance, but on knowledge, studiously acquired over years of reading, research and prayer.
        
        The point is, I am willing, as I always have been, to discuss the matter, giving information, receiving it, and doing so in a civil and adult fashion. The only ingredient missing in this prospective dialog is you. Once again, I state that I am willing to discuss the matter, openly, with both of us presenting our positions, and the reasons for them, without the need for invective or hostility. You may note that as an olive branch, I have avoided the use of any of the terms you have noted in the past as being offensive. Should you accept the offer of civility and adult discourse, I shall continue to refrain from the use of such terms. You are, at this moment, in complete control of whether or not I make use of terms you find objectionable from this point on.
        
        Or, you can continue to simply hate a man you don't know, for reasons you won't state, with behavior that the Bible doesn't condone.
        
        Back to you, Esther.
      - Esther
        
        re: Book of Mormon, Petro said: "My reasons against the Book are solid, not based on opinion or conjecture." I respect the fact you did your due diligence on an issue you feel strongly about. That really counts a lot toward your scholarly credibility with me. I still hate to talk about my religion and it just has to get me just right to do so. Actually this forum has helped me articulate these matters. as little as I have, more so then I ever have. I do have some points that you don't understand regarding the actual characteristics of a group of saints; that description could really by-past a discussion of certain things you think are issues, actually really avoid the past, not because it is unimportant or non-consequential, which it is , sort of, but the past is just that in the church, the past, and I find the saints are busy as beavers lining their lives. They live the most basic of any people I know, literally following Christ on a moment-to-moment basis, and to some extent I think probably you have already discussed with Vlad.
        
        Here is an article showing you one man's opinion wrt Evangelicals, Libertarians and the election, also his comments on what could have effected a better outcome for Mitt in terms of the popular vote.
        http://politicaloutcast.com/2012/11/how-we-got-screwed-by-non-voters-libertarians-and-principled-conservatives/
        
        Remember I thought you (and really I thought people like you) effected the outcome. Enjoy.
      - Esther
        
        Should be coven, as in "your coven at your house"… I wish I had that other degree … is that where you got yours?
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Obviously doc, your degree is not in English! : D
        You are certainly entertaining though.
      - Esther
        
        My parents were French. MY PHD IS QUANTUM MECHANICS. A subject in which I am more tha just fluent. I speak math at a level beyond your capacity. English was never necessary. You get the point, Idiot.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Does everyone in Mormonland rely on the word "idiot" as much as you do Doc?
      - Esther
        
        That is a little habit I picked up about six months ago, when for the first time in my life I came on a forum, yes, this one, and you and your friends were the first one I met. How fortunate! I remember how you all just shot questions at me about everything. And then, once the information was sufficient, you began the attack. Yes, Idiot was — and is — a good word. It is simple and it sends a message of truth
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Obviously your PHd is NOT in logic!
      - Esther
        
        Oh, but it is indeed, and the highly quantized form, so to speak. I could not have done without it. But it is my vocation to use my expertise, I find in my seeking a path of communication with traditional Christians, for my avocation, I must master illogic. Mastering illogic has been really difficult and I doubt I can ever do it.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        You appear to be just plain nasty by reading your replies. You are in fact fluent alright–in being ugly to others.
      - Esther
        
        So many notes to me Joe: I recall you, Despe, Bighoss, Dionesius2, set me in motion, and I was all ready to blast Petroskhan. I must be doing well. AND I AM STILL MORMON!!! Do y'all teach every one your 5-points tricks, as well? Screwtape must think y'all are falling down on the job! My favorite philosopher on the forum is still Jeff. But Vlad comes in a close second. Does that tell you how seriously bad teachers you guys are in feeding the Lord's sheet? tsk tsk. …
      - Courier du Bois
        
        I can see that English was never necessary for whatever you do in life–which as it appears isn't much.
      - Esther
        
        Very true. Math was a lot more fun.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Let me see that train of thought of yours–which is actually derailed–ah….. can't handle that, use the word "idiot." Hilarious Doc :D
      - Esther
        
        Calm down Joe
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Esther,,, again when was the last time you laid hands on a sick person and they recovered immediately . Or Vlad can answer also
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        There are stories from many religions about faith healing. Here is one from the Mormons.
        
        Do we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in healing? Absolutely.
        
        Our seventh Article of Faith reads: “We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.”
        
        The scriptures are full of stories of miraculous healings — those performed directly by the Savior during his mortal ministry and during his post-mortal visit to the American continent, and also those performed by His servants. There are also myriad stories from people’s personal lives, from latter-day church history, and from our family histories.
        
        Just recently, we heard such a story about one of my husband’s ancestors. John Tanner had a mysterious disease take over his leg. The doctors could do nothing for him.
        
        He had decided to attend a meeting given by Mormon missionaries, with the intent to protect his friends and neighbors from what he thought would be heresy and to set those young men aright. Their message, however, ended up touching his heart, and he invited the missionaries to his home. By 11:00 that night, he was ready to be baptized. The condition of his leg, however, prevented him from entering water.
        
        The elders asked him if he believed in the power of healing in the ancient gospel. Yes, he did. Could that same power be present now? he was asked. John Tanner discovered that it was. The elder commanded him in Jesus‘ name to stand up and walk. John Tanner describes what happened next. “I arose, threw down my crutches, and walked the floor back and forth, praising God.”
        
        I share that story to illustrate that yes, we believe in healing, and sometimes that healing can be dramatic, instantaneous, and an obvious miracle that others can witness in a tangible way.
        
        http://mormonwoman.org/2010/02/22/ask-a-mormon-woman-do-mormons-believe-in-healing/
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Thanks Esther you are a sweetheart, Jeff must really love you, But Esther answer my Question ,,,, When was the last time """YOU""" LAID HANDS on a sick person and they were healed right in front of you????????????????????????
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Hey Il Duce, how about trying to use some original thought instead of the cut and paste routine?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Since I am not a Mormon, I would hardly have any first hand experience of things they claim happen to them. How about trying to use logical thoughts?
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Interesting, and yet Doc Esther loves you as though you were a Mormon! Either she is an Atheist or you are a Mormon. Which is it Il Duce?
      - Esther
        
        Any one looking up your posts will know otherwise.
      - petroskhan
        
        Looking at my posts shows that I insist that you provide proof, or be branded a liar.
        
        You have not, and can not, prove a single thing you've said, either about me, or in defense of your pseudo-religion.
        
        You, Esther, are a liar. Your religion is a lie. You are neither Christian, nor a Mormon.
        
        You see, I have proven every statement I've ever made, from your own words, and the words of your god, Joseph Smith, and that collection of tripe called the Book of Mormon.
        
        I have proof. You have the petulant rants of a slightly retarded 12-year-old.
      - Esther
        
        Far from it, I will do what is necessary to negate what you think is intelligence, idiot.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Esther,,, A question when was the last time you laid hands on a sick person, and that sick person was healed instantly?????
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The American Cancer Society states "available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments."[3] "Death, disability, and other unwanted outcomes have occurred when faith healing was elected instead of medical care for serious injuries or illnesses."[3]
        
        According to the American Cancer Society:
        
        …available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments… One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment. In addition, at least one study has suggested that adult Christian Scientists, who generally use prayer rather than medical care, have a higher death rate than other people of the same age.[3]
        
        Reliance on faith healing to the exclusion of other forms of treatment can have a public health impact when it reduces or eliminates access to modern medical techniques.[55][56][57]This is evident in both higher mortality rates for children[58] and in reduced life expectancy for adults.[59] Critics have also made note of serious injury that has resulted from falsely labelled "healings", where patients erroneously consider themselves cured and cease or withdraw from treatment.[60][61] For example, at least six people have died after faith healing by their church and being told they had been healed of HIV and could stop taking their medications.[62] It is the stated position of the AMA that "prayer as therapy should not delay access to traditional medical care."[42]
        
        Faith Healing claims have been made by many religions and the sick have visited their shrines in hopes of recovery.
        
        "I have visited Lourdes in France and Fatima in Portugal, healing shrines of the Christian Virgin Mary. I have also visited Epidaurus in Greece and Pergamum in Turkey, healing shrines of the pagan god Asklepios. the miraculous healings recorded in both places were remarkably the same. There are, for example, many crutches hanging in the grotto of Lourdes, mute witness to those who arrived lame and left whole. There are, however, no prosthetic limbs among them, not witnesses to paraplegics whose lost limbs were restored."
        
        —John Dominic Crossan
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        And how many people have died going to the hospital, And the american cancer society doesn't want to lose their multiplied millions of buckies, Absolute fact , the medical establishment HAS medicine to heal most diseases, but you never hear about it!! What available scientific advice do we get when the medical assistant says to the patient , SORRY their is nothing we can do. I know what to do. By the way, when the Lord heals people through the laying on of my hands, I always tell them go to the doctor, tell them what happened , that you want checked out if you are truly healed.
        
        There is a disease that medical people cannot heal, only one can heal, Jesus Christ. That disease is Atheism.
        
        To know that God heals would blow a HOLE in Atheists, Natural mans thoughts.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, the medical establishment can cure people but choose not to for what delusional reason, Dwayne? All atheists have ever asked for is proof. So, the next time you are going to lay your hands on someone, I am sure you would not object to a medical doctor being on hand to examine the patient before and after to determine just what changed for the patient after you laid your hands on them?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        For the same reason a lot of pulpits are filled in many churches, Mammon. I would not object to a doc being present , would much rather they be there to see the Lord at work, especially when that Doc says, sorry, no hope for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love this
      - Mary
        
        I once had a faith healer "cure" my scoliosis. I can't say whether he was intentionally trying to deceive or not. What he did was stretch out my short leg. It appeared as if my leg got longer but in fact he just temporarily stretched the muscles and connective tissues. So things may not be as they seem.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not sure I understand your post. I stated that faith healers are nothing of the sort. You said a faith healer did not heal you. But then you said things may not be as they seem. What may not be as they seem?
      - Esther
        
        An example in use of metaphor, and parable as in the scriptures. That is her meme finally exposed. I see, that makes 2-to-zero just on this page. In order to decipher: Consider the parallel of vegan, meat, and my ongoing "Idiot Argument" with PET, where she "dogged" me.
        
        Learn to read her and you will learn how contradictions are not contradictions. Classic Christian. No wonder Joseph Smith ran like the devil was after him, from these people.
      - Esther
        
        Such profound examples of tripe, upstaged only by Petreoskhan and Bigcreep.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No need to bother with that silliness. No mythical gods are making any claims, positive or negative, about me.
      - Esther
        
        Note his is trying to convince Evermyrtle of his Christian purity, he is building his Petroskhan Cult.
      - Esther
        
        But you can rest assured that Jeff has never been affected by the meme, spoken of by Professor Dawkins!!! Certainly Jeff won't be attending your Jim Jones services at your house, petroskhan. So you can stop your salivating over Jeff now.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have not been smote yet.
      - Esther
        
        But you can rest assured that: Jeff has never been affected by the meme, spoken of by Professor Dawkins!!!
        
        Are you joining Petroskhan's cult at his house services, Evermyrtle? Be careful. He may be a copycat Jim Jones of Guyana.
      - Esther
        
        Everdim, That is your name, any one who works for the installation of a Muslim in the White House, deserves to be found out.
      - Esther
        
        You are a liar and blasphemer,.Petroskhan.
      - petroskhan
        
        Prove it, Esther. Show one time I've lied, or blasphemed.
        
        Put up or shut up, you mindless twit. You blabber away, typing one moronic comment after another, and throw out one baseless, idiotic accusation after another.
        
        Pull your head out of your rear end long enough to actually PROVE an accusation, you dingbat, or shut up. You're embarrassing yourself.
      - Esther
        
        No one takes your efforts to do one better than Joseph Smith. He had good on his side. It is clear to me that you are another usurper of the true good kingdom on the Earth and as long as I have children you will be cursed by me for your rotten verbiage.
      - petroskhan
        
        Yes, I can see how you would hate someone who holds to the truth of the Bible, and demands answers and logic before believing in that collection of tripe called the Book of Mormon.
        
        I can see how you would having criticism directed at an indefensible faith, riddled with illogic and blasphemy.
        
        I understand, Esther. Really I do.
      - Esther
        
        You are a contradiction to any good book. Any can see that with just a short research on what you post. idiot.
      - petroskhan
        
        I am contradiction to a good book? How can a person be a contradiction? Your grammar needs work, dear.
        
        I will assume you mean that something I've said was IN contradiction to…something.
        
        Prove your allegations, Esther. Prove a single thing you've said about me. Just one.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Did you read Joseph Smith' writings.If you didn't you should do so before try to argue with those who have!!
      - Esther
        
        Unlikely, probably never… I love reading the current LDS apostles, Jeff and Vlad. They tell me what I need to know now. THANKS anyway.
      - Esther
        
        YOUR PATRONISM FALLS ON DEAF EARS HEAR, DUMMY.
      - petroskhan
        
        That should be "here", not "hear".
        
        Didn't cover English on the way to the alleged Ph.D?
      - Esther
        
        You get the real point, idiot, that is what is important.
      - petroskhan
        
        How about you actually make a point for a change, instead of being a rather dull-witted child?
        
        I'll make this easy for you to understand. From now on, if you don't actually say anything worth responding to, I'll let you know. If you fail to contribute to the furtherance of the discussion, I'll let you know. Anytime you simply make a comment so stupid it makes others' brains hurt (often, as your history shows), I'll let you know.
      - petroskhan
        
        Oh, and "patronism" isn't actually a word. It is used, though, to describe the act of 'adopting' an artist, and supporting him, to allow him to focus on his work.
        
        I think you meant "patronizing", maybe?
      - Esther
        
        The ability to use words effectively is not entirely your strong point. Of course if one is talking to a person of your level of expertise, one must keep the reader in mind. Re-read the comment, and ponder it, you might learn/hear/read something of why I do have a Ph.D. and you don't. I learned variety in the use of basic words in the 5th grade, really just my secondary education was enough to address your concern. Again, I don't accept your PATRONISM, EVER. DON'T YOU GET IT? I mean just that.
      - petroskhan
        
        You are, without doubt, one of the most uneducated, ignorant and intellectually challenged people I've ever encountered.
        
        You're not only ignorant, you're totally oblivious to your own failings and lack of education. You spout off about how educated you are, and can't even type a single paragraph without more grammatical and spelling errors than you'd find in an ESL class.
        
        Your only value as a human being is to serve as a warning to others, you know that?
      - Esther
        
        You can hold that mirror up to yourself. You are the joke.
      - petroskhan
        
        You have failed to further the discussion. No reply to your comment is warranted.
      - Esther
        
        IDIOT
      - petroskhan
        
        Well, if you're going to start dictating what terms and language I can use, then how about a little quid pro quo?
        You don't have MY permission to insult me.
        You stop, I'll stop.
        Fair enough?
      - Esther
        
        NO BECAUSE YOU CALL ME TERMS OF ENDEARMENT TO BELITTLE ME … I DO NOT CALL YOU TERMS OF ENDEARMENT, IDIOT
        
        YOU LIE ABOUT YOUR CAMPAIGNING AGAINST ROMNEY, NOT ON HIS POLITICS BUT ON HIS RELIGION. YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT UP ENOUGH TO STOP ME CALLING YOU IDIOT. IT WILL TAKE WHAT YOU CAN'T DO. AND MY CHILDREN ARE PAYING FOR YOUR FILTHY LANGUAGE ABOUT A GOOD MAN, HIS FAMILY AND HIS RELIGION, WHICH SWAYED SO MANY PEOPLE OF YOUR FILTHY KIND TO ELECT A MUSLIM, YOU IDIOT.
      - petroskhan
        
        LOL
        
        Okay,, now there's a gem I will never forget:
        "NO BECAUSE YOU CALL ME TERMS OF ENDEARMENT TO BELITTLE ME … I DO NOT CALL YOU TERMS OF ENDEARMENT, IDIOT"
        
        Let's assume that you're right, that I am using terms of endearment to "belittle" you. I'm not, but we'll get to that later. So, if we assume that the terms of endearment are meant to belittle you…what is the purpose of your insults? Aren't YOU attempting to belittle ME?
        
        If the terms I'm using in some way offend you, that's your inference, not my implication. You are blatantly hostile and offensive. I'm being civil, polite.
        
        And just so I can state that it was explained, the reason for the use of the endearing terms is simple. I don't want to be insulting. I don't want to throw out hostility, animosity, or resort to childish name-calling.
        
        And, as a secondary cause, I do think you have the capacity to be endearing, sweet, and many other things. When you decide to manifest those traits is up to you; I'm assuming that eventually politeness and civility will make it from your heart to your fingers, as you type. I'm patient, I can wait, dearie.
      - petroskhan
        
        And just to show that I am helpful to those in need, and that there are no limits to my generosity, here are some new words for you to use, sweetie:
        
        blockhead, bonehead, cretin, dimwit, dork,dumbbell, dunce, fool, ignoramus, imbecile, jerk,kook, moron, muttonhead, nincompoop, ninny,nitwit, out to lunch, pinhead, simpleton, stupid,tomfool, twit
        
        Now you don't have to keep using "idiot" over and over again, like some sort of mentally deficient parrot.
        
        I am SO helpful to others. There's my good deed for the day! (I'm so proud of myself!!)
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Esther = Calumniation. We expect it. : D
      - Esther
        
        Joe Anzolotti… I believe you have neglected to respond to the Pilgrims' (Presbyterians') deeds. Are you ready for another installment?
      - millergroup2
        
        Childish! Flagged……………………
      - Courier du Bois
        
        "Patronism"–that is precious. Maybe she should have gone into English. Although she might be too far gone as it is.
      - Vladimir
        
        I don't understand your second paragraph, petroskhan. Please rephrase.
      - petroskhan
        
        Sorry, typo. Left out a word.
        
        "I can see how you would hate having criticism directed at an indefensible faith, riddled with illogic and blasphemy."
      - Esther
        
        You are stupid enough to really think your opinion is important to me, Barbie. Oh, by the way, your analysis is all wrong.
      - millergroup2
        
        Stated like a devout Mormon should. Show us more of the benevolent LDS leadership. Now even Vladimir is ashamed of you. You are good at making friends. Congrats!!
      - Esther
        
        We are not joined at the hip as you, Evermyrtle, Joe Anzolotti, petroskhan, bighoss, et al.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I'm glad to hear it, that means you can study the Smith writings and get out of that blasphemous establishment, before it is too late..
      - Esther
        
        Have you been reading anti lit again? I am shocked.
      - petroskhan
        
        ver·bi·age
        Noun:Speech or writing that uses too many words or excessively technical expressions.
        
        You sure that's the word you wanted to use?
      - Esther
        
        I did
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Misusing words is one of your specialties, isn't it?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Ain't no way she can prove it?? His writing with this blasphemy throughout is there, for whoever wants to read it, or is it banned by the Mormons??.
      - Vladimir
        
        Evermyrtle, you keep accusing Mormons of blasphemy which is insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. Please provide an example of blasphemy committed by Mormons.
      - petroskhan
        
        Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April 6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you" (JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346). Brigham Young, the second prophet and president of the Mormon Church, delivered a message in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on August 8, 1852, in which he affirmed this teaching when he said, "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself" (JOD 3:93).
      - Vladimir
        
        Thank you for taking the time to provide those quotes. Now show me where it is stated that we will be "equal to God Himself", your words.
      - petroskhan
        
        "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself" (JOD 3:93).
      - Vladimir
        
        Yes, I believe that quote, but where is it stated that we will be EQUAL to God? You alone are making that claim. We have been given the opportunity to become a god like our Heavenly Father. If we achieve it, it will be the result of His help, through Christ's atonement and our efforts, our obedience and our decisions.
        
        What is NOT taught by our church is that we will ever be EQUAL to any member of the Godhead, Father, Son or Holy Ghost. It is my understanding that we will always be operating under Father's direction and using His authority (priesthood) to do what He is doing now. Jesus Christ is an example of a loving Son operating under the authority of His Father in complete obedience.
      - petroskhan
        
        "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." Pretty clear to me.
      - Esther
        
        Neither one of those are official doctrine.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Petro, I am sure you can accept that the charge of blasphemy does depend on the religious view of the person making charge. The Muslims claim that people of other religions are guilty of blasphemy. Christians make the same claim against other religions. Therefore, to a member of the LDS church you have blasphemed. Now, of course, the very idea of blasphemy is simply more religious nonsense. But that will not stop people of competing religions to hurl the charge against others.
      - petroskhan
        
        Well stated, and I understand your point.
        
        However, this conversation is within the boundaries of supposed Christian doctrine. Esther (your devoted fan :P), has claimed, within a conversation on the subject of Christianity, that I have blasphemed. I am asking her to prove it. Within that context.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        However, you both have differing views of what constitutes Christianity. You are asking that she prove it as you interpret it. She approaches it as she interprets it. Neither of you agree that the other is right. When you quote from the bible, it does not mean anything to them because they believe that traditional Christians have the view of Jesus as wrong.
      - petroskhan
        
        Granted, however, blasphemy is a clearly defined word, and within the context of Christianity easily proven and/or disproven.
        
        If she can't prove it, then the allegation is false.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Since neither of you accept that the other understands the true context of what Christianity means, I do not think that either of you will ever agree what blasphemy means within Christianity.
      - petroskhan
        
        Spice of life, ain't it?
        
        But maybe we will both, through discussion, uncover something that we would otherwise have missed. It happens occasionally.
        
        And if we disagree until the end, at least we tried to find a deeper meaning. And most importantly, it's fun.
      - YO mama
        
        "Doc" Esther is as entertaining as Il Duce. I still don't know which is the Atheist and which is the Mormon. Part of the challenge I reckon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Which simply shows another issue that is beyond your scope, Joe.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Well, I cannot argue that point. It is fun.
      - YO mama
        
        Esther's hero, Il Duce is back into action.
      - Esther
        
        YOU HAVE NO CLASS AND YOU DESERVE NO CREDIT
      - petroskhan
        
        I have no class?
        
        I have remained calm and civil to you, Esther, in the face of your ceaseless and rather childish insults. I have remained civil to you in the light your constant tantrums and unfounded accusations. I have remained as courteous as possible to you, while you rant and rave, throwing out baseless and unprovoked insults at me.
        
        I have enjoined you time and again to engage in a civil and intelligent discourse, even granting that you could choose the topic. Your reply has consisted solely of continued denigration devoid of any civil or logical content.
        
        The vast majority of your posts consist of only of your repeated use of single insult, and not a single cogent answer to anything I've asked you.
        
        Now…who is the one showing "no class"?
      - Esther
        
        No, you have not.
      - Esther
        
        YOU ARE THE ULTIMATE IDIOT PETROSKHAN
      - petroskhan
        
        Again with the same word? You need a thesaurus or something. Oh, I know…an education! Yes, that would help. A dollop of maturity wouldn't hurt much, either.
      - Esther
        
        SURE JEFF GO RIGHT AHEAD AND EGG HIM ON.
      - millergroup2
        
        On and on these Mormons go Petroskhan. Always evading questions, never telling the truth. This is a game they play, a play on emotions. Their creator Joesph, a liar and cheat, has deceived the lot of them. These people will not admit to the truth even if you staple the truth to their foreheads. This article states that "Mormonism's cultural rise likely to continue". This is more of an intimidating threat than fact. Soon it will all fall in on them. Just be ready to console the lost when they reach out for the real truth. Now, that is wisdom!
      - Vladimir
        
        Show me where it is written that we will be equal to God?
      - Esther
        
        Sam's example = Petroskhan
      - petroskhan
        
        Irrelevant comments = Esther.
        
        We can play this all day.
        
        Let's change this up, Esther. I'm getting bored again. How about we have a civil, intelligent discussion, devoid of malicious assumptions, insults, or immature interjections of irrelevancies?
        
        I'll even let you choose the topic.
      - Esther
        
        YOUR STUPID POSTS ARE PROOF ENOUGH
      - petroskhan
        
        Sweetie, all caps doesn't make what you type more true. And if someone asks for proof, childish insults and typographical tantrums are NOT going to be regarded as substantiation of your position.
        Now, comport youself with some maturity, or head over to the little kids forums…I'm sure Sesame Street has one.
      - Esther
        
        Barbie, you must learn to control your temper.
      - Evermyrtle
        
        I won't say your a liar, but you sure are believing some very bad stuff that if you don't change you will be charged by GOD for believing and practicing this evil filth that came from JOSEPH SMITH'S PEN. Don't be an idiot and not read this stuff for your own good and for the good of your family.
      - Esther
        
        I think you need a hearing aid or some eye glasses: Once again. The members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DO NOT WORSHIP MEN. When are you going to realize what this means? What language must one use to speak to you Evermyrtle?
      - Esther
        
        For example as near perfect as Jeff Dixon, Sam Harris, Vladimir, Joseph Smith and Mesaman are, I do not worship them, and no one is asking you to do so, nor do you have to warn me about men and their imperfections.
      - petroskhan
        
        LOL
        
        "…as near perfect as Jeff Dixon is"? Yeah, aside from that whole disagreeing with the very foundation of your life, and his being an atheist…right?
        
        You are one screwed up broad, you know that? Unless, of course, you're actually Jeff. That would explain a lot.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        lol. Oh please, Petro. First off, I have said many times I am not perfect. I have no need to pretend to be someone else. Completely happy being myself. And do you really think I would claim that Vlad, Joe Smith or Mesaman to be nearly perfect given my views on religion?
        
        I enjoy reading Sam Harris, but he is hardly almost perfect either.
      - petroskhan
        
        I didn't say you were, Jeff. I was responding to Esther's ridiculous post.
        
        I do find it odd that someone claiming to be a Christian is so in love with atheists, though. Lends more credence to the theory I have that she is either mentally unbalanced, or a pen name of yours. LOL
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I know you did not claim I was nearly perfect. That is not what I said. My comment was that I have said many times I am not perfect.
      - Esther
        
        I said Jeff was nearly perfect. That may be an exaggeration to him but I feel next to many on this forum it is not far from the truth.
      - petroskhan
        
        You might want to back away from him, Esther, just a bit.
        
        You've got something on your nose…might want to see to that.
      - Esther
        
        I see Jeff perfectly clear. He is a seeker. My God considers him a curious child of His. I don't see how you could see him otherwise, but of course I know you do. and you want to salivate in his presence like a sick puppy (that is being nice). I would never let the likes of you in the presence of my children.
        
        You simply have to learn that your "tolerance" will never work from the perspective you provide it, neither will your "respect" for others religions. Your are the classic case that Sam Harris discusses in his book. Idiots like you are well-known. I am so glad I read about you. Why do you think I have the courage to stand against your garbage? That fact that you hold religious study in your house and not in a meeting house is evidence that you lack both these requirements. You, therefore, see all others as sure to go to hell if they don't follow you. Your kind is well known Petroskhan.
        
        So, NO, I back away from you first. I see no need to back away from Jeff. Do you think that he harms my faith in humanity or God? NO, he does not. But you do try to degrade and harm me. Why? Because I don't use proper diction or worship according to your idiot recipe. The latter will never happen.
      - petroskhan
        
        Ah, finally…something to which a response is warranted. Thank you.
        
        "I see Jeff perfectly clear. He is a seeker." I make no assumptions regarding Jeff, and he seems quite intelligent enough to speak for himself. He has in the past, and I trust he will continue to do so in the future. And I seriously doubt that you or I know him well enough to speak for him.
        
        As for this recent "salivating" fixation you've got…you should seek therapy. How you equate civil disagreement with "salivating" is outside the realm of logic or reason. I suggest you examine your own motivations, and the obvious projection of them apparent in your posts. And how my criticisms of Jeff have anything to do with your children…are you trying to say that Jeff is one of your children? What the heck goes through mind…aside from a stiff breeze?
        
        As for what Sam Harris thinks or writes…I couldn't possibly care less what an atheist thinks of my religious beliefs. I would sooner take decorating advice from a blind man.
        
        "Why do you think I have the courage to stand against your garbage?" First off, what "garbage" have I stated here, Esther? That I believe in the Bible? That Mormonism is wrong? I can prove, with sources/citations, anything I've posted here. Can you say the same? And as for "courage"…really, Esther, this is the internet. No one needs to have courage to sit at a keyboard and type insults at someone who simply disagrees with her. That's not courage, dearie. That's rudeness and a lack of civility.
        
        "You, therefore, see all others as sure to go to hell if they don't follow you." You know the problem with trying to read someone's mind, Esther? You can't. No, sweetie, I don't see others as going to hell. I only see that I am on a journey, trying my best to get things right, and I try like heck to follow the Bible and its guidelines. You've seen fit to insult me, disparage my character, and make ceaseless malicious comments regarding me, all the while without knowing a single thing about me. In all seriousness, Esther, is THIS what you learn from your study of Mormonism? Is this what you get from the Book of Mormon? THIS is the attitude you want to pass along to your children? Anyone questions you, or disagrees with you, be sure to insult him, make assumptions regarding his character, make up details about his life and thoughts, be as hostile and venomous as possible. Fine example you're setting there, Esther.
        
        "Because I don't use proper diction or worship according to your idiot recipe." The improper diction I can deal with, actually. I only point it out to show you that maybe you're not so perfect as you attempt to claim sometimes. We all make mistakes, all the time. It's your hateful attitude and unreasoning hostility that I actually find objectionable. And I would be careful with calling my faith an "idiotic recipe", if I were you. My "recipe", as you call it, is to follow the Bible, God's message to us. If that's "idiotic" in your opinion, I would suggest you take that up with Him.
        
        And you may think that cozening up to atheists is not going to harm your faith in God, but ask yourself where it leads. He's not going to agree with you. So, the question is…are you going to agree with him?
      - Esther
        
        When you read Sam you will see yourself in the case study.
      - petroskhan
        
        Not gonna happen. I have better things to do with my time than pollute my mind with the ramblings of someone who turns his back on God.
      - Esther
        
        No one I know is guilty of that.
      - petroskhan
        
        In re: Sam Harris:
        
        You don't know anyone that has turned his back on God? Then I suggest you stop holding up Sam Harris as one of your idols. Some info on him from Wikipedia:
        
        "Harris's basic message is that the time has come to freely question the idea of religious faith. Harris specifically attacks Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, characterizing them as much more dangerous than other religions."
        
        "Harris argues that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised."
        
        "He also rejects the claim that the Bible was inspired by an omniscient god."
        
        And this, taken from his website, under the blog entry, "The Freedom to Offend an Imanginary God":
        
        Consider Mormonism: Many of my fellow liberals would consider it morally indecent to count Romney’s faith against him. In their view, Mormonism must be just like every other religion. The truth, however, is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than its fair share of quirks. For instance, its doctrine was explicitly racist until 1978, at which point God apparently changed his mind about black people (a few years after Archie Bunker did) and recommended that they be granted the full range of sacraments and religious responsibilities. By this time, Romney had been an adult and an exceptionally energetic member of his church for more than a decade.
        
        Unlike the founders of most religions, about whom very little is known, Mormonism is the product of the plagiarisms and confabulations of an obvious con man, Joseph Smith, whose adventures among the credulous were consummated (in every sense) in the full, unsentimental glare of history. Given how much we know about Smith, it is harder to be a Mormon than it is to be a Christian. A firmer embrace of the preposterous is required—and the fact that Romney can manage it says something about him, just as it would if he were a Scientologist proposing to park his E-meter in the Oval Office. The spectrum between rational belief and self-serving delusion has some obvious increments: It is one thing to believe that Jesus existed and was probably a remarkable human being. It is another to accept, as most Christians do, that he was physically resurrected and will return to earth to judge the living and the dead. It is yet another leap of faith too far to imagine, as all good Mormons must, that he will work his cosmic magic from the hallowed ground of Jackson County, Missouri.
        
        That final, provincial detail matters. It makes Mormonism objectively less plausible than run-of-the-mill Christianity—as does the related claim that Jesus visited the “Nephites” in America at some point after his resurrection. The moment one adds seer stones, sacred underpants, the planet Kolob, and a secret handshake required to win admittance into the highest heaven, Mormonism stands revealed for what it is: the religious equivalent of rhythmic gymnastics.
        
        I can see why he's one of your heroes…no, wait…I can't. Sorry.
      - Esther
        
        SEE HOW YOU ARE PETROSKHAN: I REPEAT: I HAVE NO IDOLS. YOU TWIST AND TURN THINGS INTO A KNOTTY MESS. THAT IS WHY I RESIST BEING HONEST WITH YOU. YOU DON'T SEE IT NOW AND YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT, I AM CONVINCED.
      - petroskhan
        
        idol
        
        Noun:
        1 – An image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
        2 – A person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered: "movie idol Robert Redford".
        
        I assumed that you would infer I intended the second definition. It was not my intention to convey that you worshiped Sam Harris. I assume for the purposes of our conversations that you have no idols in the sense of worship, and reserve that reverence for God, as you see Him. You may quote me on that should I err in the future in this regard. I will do my best to adhere to that position, to our hopefully mutual benefit.
        
        With that cleared up, could you be so kind as to address my post as it was intended?
      - Esther
        
        By the way: I rather like that assessment of Sam, but it is a backlash at him and his approach is academic, not at all like has been indicated. He is extremely intelligent and very clear in his expositions. Why don't you read his book and see what I mean? I dare you. You are afraid that you might agree, aren't you. Petroskhan, you have no religious freedom if that is what you think.
      - petroskhan
        
        Esther, dear…I quoted Sam Harris in the entirety of my post. How on earth could it be a "backlash at him" when the words are his own?
        
        He may be intelligent, but he is an atheist, who denies the existence of God.
        
        And how could I be afraid of agreeing with someone who is an atheist? More importantly, Esther, do YOU agree with him?
      - Esther
        
        Sam is logical in his approach and gives copious and/or singular striking examples to illustrate his case. I don't see where you have shown this aspect of Sam's writing. Whether you guys like it, I have a bachelors degree in philosophy and have taken logic. I don't mean to imply one needs a course in logic to know what it really is, one can learn and use logic at will, it is "common sense"… yet, I know a great writer when I see one, and Sam fits the bill. You are missing out if you don't read the book that you have quoted.
      - Esther
        
        BTW, I am phi kappa phi. Google that buddy.
      - YO Mama
        
        The girl doesn't do English, now she is going into Greek!!
      - YO Mama
        
        I am proud of you Doc Esther–you actually have managed some discussion today without using the term "idiot"–making some progress.
      - petroskhan
        
        He may be logical, and intelligent. That does NOT equate to wisdom, and the man is a fool. He denies the existence of God at his peril, and I will have nothing to do with his foolish ramblings.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Actually, being logical and intelligent is not possible without wisdom. He denies an entity that no one has ever seen. He points out the how a belief in this deity has lead to a point in time where it is entirely possible that people may blow up the world because of disagreements over verses in books that non one can prove came from a god. You can disregard him, I have no doubt that you will, but that does not show any great wisdom on your part.
      - petroskhan
        
        In order for me to adequately reply to your post, I would you to give me your definition of the three key terms used in your opening line, namely, "logic", "intelligence" and "wisdom". I could go with Webster's, but you might have a different tone or emphasis on how you use the words. I don't want to reply without being sure we're using the same definition.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA
        noun
        1.
        the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
        2.
        a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
        3.
        the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
        4.
        reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
        
        in·tel·li·gence [in-tel-i-juhns] Show IPA
        noun
        1.
        capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths,relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
        2.
        manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
        3.
        the faculty of understanding.
        4.
        knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received orimparted; news; information.
        
        wis·dom [wiz-duhm] Show IPA
        noun
        1.
        the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action;sagacity, discernment, or insight.
      - Esther
        
        You are a Barbie. ewwww
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        It is the time to freely question religious beliefs. They have been given free reign for far too long on this planet.
      - petroskhan
        
        It has always been time to freely questions beliefs. A belief unquestioned is one without foundation; it should be defensible, or it is has no value.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No, actually, while your statement is accurate,the reality is that questioning the religious beliefs of people has generally resulted in people being killed. It is only in the last 200 years that people have finally been freed from that concern. And that is only in the West.
      - petroskhan
        
        It is sad that much harm has been done by those seeking power and/or self-aggrandizement, under the guise of religion. That does not, in and of itself, make religion bad.
        
        That's like saying we should ban knives because they can cut people. Anything can be used for a purpose other than that for which it was intended; it is up to the individuals in society to make sure that abuses of any sort do not take place, and punish those who do so.
        
        It's not religion (or a knife or a gun) that has ever killed a single person; it's fools, following greater fools, who have done so.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The difference is that when people create a knife, they do not tell people who use the knife to kill others that do not want to to accept that the knife is beneficial. The people who create knives are ok with people who decide to never embrace the use of knives. The same is not true of people who create religions. They usually cannot accept people who do not embrace their "revealed" knowledge. And that is when the killings begin. The sad reality is that it is exactly the people who create religions who end up being the ones responsible for why people get killed.
      - petroskhan
        
        "The people who create knives are ok with people who decide to never embrace the use of knives. The same is not true of people who create religions."
        
        That depends on the religion, now, doesn't it? Islam is quite hostile towards those who refuse to accept its precepts. Buddhism, Christianity and Hinduism (to my knowledge), do not mandate any sort of hostility towards those who refuse the message of their faiths.
        
        "The sad reality is that it is exactly the people who create religions who end up being the ones responsible for why people get killed."
        
        I disagree completely. Again, you are blaming the misuse of a thing on the thing itself. The Inquisition, enacted in the name of Christianity, was as far from the principles as you can get without being blatantly anti-Christian. In Sri Lanka, Sinhala Buddhists are even now committing acts of violence against Christians and others who disagree with their faith. For any religion, you can find acts of violence in the name of that faith, which are actually in violation of the faith it claims to serve.
        
        Does this misuse make the faith itself wrong, or to blame? Or is it the actions of those perpetrating the misuse?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I should have said some religions. However, the Christian religion exposes violence as much as Islam. So does Judaism. All of the desert religions from the Middle East are completely insane.
        
        Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
      - petroskhan
        
        Matt. 10:14
        "And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town."
        
        Luke 9:4
        "If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet."
        
        That's why I specified Christianity. The rather harsh treatments one can find in the Old Testament were generally specific to a time and place, or under certain circumstances. The verses above are the guidelines, if you will, for followers of Christ in regards to those who refuse to listen to the Word of God.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        When I show one verse, you show an opposing verse. Yet when I say that merely shows that the bible is not consistent, you try and argue against that as well. It is one or the other. Either the bible is consistent throughout or it is not. You are being disingenuous when you show opposing views and then say the bible is not inconsistent.
      - petroskhan
        
        It is possible that I am being disingenuous.
        
        However, there is also the possibility that you are taking verses out of context.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Every time we disagree on what the verses mean? Every time? You position is that you are always right and I am never right?: Seriously?
        
        Listen, I will be the first to say that I can be be wrong. But I find it hard to accept that I am always wrong. Especially since the only reason I might be considered wrong is that in being right you would be wrong.
      - petroskhan
        
        I don't think you're wrong every time. Just every time I've seen. Just kidding…
        
        Look, you have a bias against the Bible. I think we can both agree on that. Therefore, you will tend to look for substantiation of your negative viewpoint, and not allow for the possibility that there is, in fact, merit to what the Bible contains. To do so would invalidate your stand, and introduce the possibility that you are mistaken in your opinion of the Bible. You don't believe in it, and view it as fanciful nonsense, and have labored to find proof of your viewpoint.
        
        I have a bias against atheism. I will tend to look at the Bible with a broader (more generous?) view, and to consider more possibilities when reading it than a skeptic/atheist might. I will look harder for rationality and logic, and seek to find answers to apparent contradictions and flaws. I have faith in the Bible, and trust it. This of course means that I will tend to automatically (almost knee-jerk) react with negativity to the subject of such things as atheism and evolution, and will devote great effort to finding refutation for such things.
        
        Point is, we are both biased. I don't think anyone can honestly claim to be truly objective on such a deep topic.
        
        And in all seriousness, I don't think you're wrong every time, nor would I say I have an answer to counter every point you've made. For example, I am STILL trying to find some sort of answer regarding your question on how much time passed from the creation of Adam and Eve to the "incident" with the Tree and that "talking snake", as you call him. It was an excellent question, for which I admit I have no answer at present.
      - Esther
        
        Swoon… Barbie and Jeff
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You would swoon if someone actually stated that you asked an excellent question. I doubt you have experienced that often in your life.
      - petroskhan
        
        Oh, by the way, love that last sentence:
        "Especially since the only reason I might be considered wrong is that in being right you would be wrong."
        
        Very well-worded. :D
      - Esther
        
        o cute, Barbie. Barbie and Jeff
      - Esther
        
        You signify nothing.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I also want to say, that out of all the people I debate with on here, I consider you to be one of the most fair-minded ones I have dealt with.
      - petroskhan
        
        Thanks. I try to weight things before making assumptions.
      - Esther
        
        … even though he can be a case study for Sam, that is, isn't that true Jeff?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You and Petro are in a war. I am in a debate. There is a difference. While I would not disagree that I consider many of Petro;s views to be delusional, I would also say I do not consider anything he says to be of no value.
      - Esther
        
        Thank you for the distinction. I think you are a worthy opponent in a debate. He is fortunate to have the opportunity.
      - Esther
        
        … edited response
      - Esther
        
        Actually: LOL. Fair-minded? Petroskhan, Jeff? I have a Shakespearean quote for you, but cannot quote it verbatim.
      - Esther
        
        I did not say that everything he says has no value. There was a time when I did not call him any names. I have taken that up recently as I saw his comment just days before the election he was campaigning against Romney's religion with no mention of his politics, but he has been rude to me since day one when he found out I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Maybe there is something to be said about honesty, of course, though disconcerting since they see you in hell.
      - petroskhan
        
        Is it still a war if one of us is having fun? Not sure about Esther, but I sure am enjoying it.
        
        The main reason is that I do not believe Esther is real. I think she is a false persona, created by someone for the purpose of ranting and perhaps (just thinking out loud here) to make Mormons look bad. Whatever the origin, I simply do not believe that Esther is a real person.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        War may not be the best word to use. However, there is certainly no debate occurring between the two of you.
      - petroskhan
        
        Oh, on that we most certainly agree. A debate is light years above whatever the heck THIS is.
      - Esther
        
        Gee: Who is doing that but a man who is developing a coven in his own home.
      - petroskhan
        
        Esther, if you cannot engage in adult discourse, perhaps you should head to a forum more suited to your level of intellectual contribution.
        Might I suggest barbie.com?
        
        (FYI – The primary definition of a coven is: "a collection of individuals with similar interests or activities " Even your attempts at denigration are falling short)
      - Esther
        
        Talking snake.
      - Esther
        
        Joseph Smith was killed ~ 160 years ago by a coven of false-Christians in Liberty Jail. They trapped him and killed him. .
      - Esther
        
        Thank you.
      - Esther
        
        I do not have idols. I am a Mormon. I do not worship men as you do. I worship God, who is the God of my youth and the God of the Protestants, same one, in the name of my Savior Christ. My devotion to follow Christ is more profound than any Catholic, Protestant, or person trying to start a Christian sect at his house. Go ahead and you read your responses to me and tell me if you have respect for women. LOL, HAHAHA. You do not respect women and that has been clear from the moment I saw you post, also, I find that suspicious because you are so bound and determined to convince people otherwise. You and the others mention also do not have respect for God either. The Mormons far outclass you on every front. .
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Of course you have idols. Kent is your new favorite flavor of the day.
        And you keep confusing the reality that just because people do not respect you, does not mean they do not respect women.
      - Esther
        
        You tell me people respect women other than me
        You tell me I idolize a man who would kill you
        So it's me
        Got it.
      - Esther
        
        You are the talking snake, so it would not be a stretch.
      - Esther
        
        You are the talking snake. You are seriously disingenuous
      - Esther
        
        Salivating over Jeff again PETROSKHAN… does not go unnoticed, classless idiot..
      - Courier du Bois
        
        What does "salivating" have to do with any of this Doc?
        Might I suggest you go easy on the word "idiot"? It is similar to Jeff and his overuse of "myth."
      - Esther
        
        Joe Anzolotti: How about I suggest you read Jeff's favorite author also and you and Petroskhan can review it in an online conversation for all to hear. I would love that. You are due for a lesson in logic as well. Jeff just mentioned him yesterday or the day before. Ask him if you cannot find it. Be nice and he might tell you if you cannot.
      - Esther
        
        Salivating again Petroskhan?
      - petroskhan
        
        Yes, over the lovely T-Bone steaks cooking in my kitchen. I'd offer you one, but I'm thinking you probably live a bit too far to get here in time.
      - Esther
        
        Changing the subject? I am reading further on your dementia, Petroskhan.
      - petroskhan
        
        Changing the subject? How? You asked if I was salivating…I answered you!
        
        Read away, Esther. Read all the atheistic claptrap you like. If you think reading the anti-God, anti-religion rantings of someone who has willfully turned his back on his Creator is going to bring you closer to God, you go for it.
        
        I'll be over here with my Bible.
      - Esther
        
        You are the talking snake.
      - Esther
        
        I hoped you would enjoy the ramification of my comment, Jeff. I enjoyed your lol!
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Yes Jeffrey……can you approve what I posted? Geeeesh disgusting!
      - Esther
        
        I would take Jeff's advice over yours!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Now that is funny, Joe. You have asked several times if Despeville agreed with things you have posted.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        If anything wouldbephd you are an Atheist.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Another nauseating post by youknowwhophd. Excuuuse me as I reach for my Phenergan again. : D
      - Esther
        
        One word describes PETROSKHAN => IDIOT
      - Esther
        
        Next to you he is near perfect even today. See that first sentence of your last paragraph? I knew you are crass from day one. It comes through your insincere text. You want to know why I do not answer your question? You drip insincerity.
      - Glen S
        
        I find it interesting that you once thought Dixon near perfect and once equated Evermyrtle to an idiot. My how fast things change!
      - Esther
        
        Why haven't I seen this comment before, Glen? I received no notification. When anyone talks about the Mormons like she does I call them the worst thing I can muster. Yes things change. At least they seem to on the outside. Inside I know that we are all children of a gracious Father. I do put my faith in a man but to an extent note I said near perfect and I do not worship any man. I worship only God in the name of my Savior Christ. She actively campaigned against Romney. So it infuriated me to see that a people so devoted to follow Christ, come under the attack of a supposed good woman.
      - petroskhan
        
        Still waiting for proof, Esther. Put up or shut up.
      - Esther
        
        More of Petroskhan's history:
        
        – The "Protestant Inquisition" is a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.
        – Protestant Huguenots grew into an aggressive minority in France in the 15OOs — until repeated Catholic reprisals smashed them. On Saint Bartholomew's Day in 1572, Catherine de Medicis secretly authorized Catholic dukes to send their soldiers into Huguenot neighborhoods and slaughter families. This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. Other persecutions continued for two centuries, until the French Revolution. One group of Huguenots escaped to Florida; in 1565 a Spanish brigade discovered their colony, denounced their heresy, and killed them all.
        
        accessed 111012 http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html
      - petroskhan
        
        Irrelevant and inapplicable. You have failed to further the discussion. No reply to your comment is warranted.
      - Esther
        
        Address your history, Idiot.
      - petroskhan
        
        You have failed to further the discussion. No reply to your comment is warranted.
      - Esther
        
        Addressing your history is warranted, idiot.
      - Courier du Bois
        
        No reply to any of her comments are generally warranted Petroskhan. Just for the record. : D That is not to say that they aren't entertaining.
      - petroskhan
        
        Well, I'm just glad someone else sees it as well. :)
        
        And, there is always hope, as well.
      - Esther
        
        see below
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Esther does not offer proof. She crys and whines about how mean everyone is to her.
      - petroskhan
        
        And your poof would be…?
      - Esther
        
        proof below
      - frawgeyz
        
        all true Petroskhan. You are accused of bearing false witness when you are testing and trying the spirits. You have told the truth. It does no good to argue the point with those who have been deceived and led from the scripture.
        There are even more blasphemies doctrines than those that you have listed here. But it is best to pray for those that accuse you as they must come to the truth by the leading of the HG.
        The God they worship, who is Adam god, sinned. Common sense would dictate that a god who sins, for any reason, has no right to judge anyone else.
        May God bless you Petro for all of your efforts.
        Their leader( BY) said that it was the duty of every male Mormon to become like God!
        This is what Satan desired and set out to do before his fall. He wanted to become like God. Enough said?
      - Evermyrtle
        
        Again, I say, read the d– writings, they prove that he was a leader in millions of people committing blasphemy!!! Are these writings hidden for the people or can't they read, what is their problem that they cannot see.it.
      - Esther
        
        Evermyrtle=Petroskhan
      - Esther
        
        I have an idea Myrtle, why don't you compare Vladimir to the idiots you champion. You know what I mean, look in your bible and liken the scriptures to the people you know. For example, let me get you started: First lets do PET (yes I mean Petroskhan): I think we can liken him to a talking snake. What do you think? Why don't you liken Vlad to someone in the bible Myrtle? You think of someone and I will check to see if I agree..
        
        WATCH FOR PET'S RESPONSE BELOW; CAREFUL DON'T STEP IN IT:
      - petroskhan
        
        Yes, I am SO evil. I tell people to read and study the Bible, and NOT listen to anything or anyone who is in opposition to it. I tell people to follow the will of God, as laid down in Scripture, and not be led astray by lies and deceitful doctrines.
        
        Like the Book of Mormon.
      - Esther
        
        talking snake
      - Vladimir
        
        Obviously, petroskhan, you haven't read the Book of Mormon. You are relying on the opinion of others. Others you don't know. Are they deceitful? Are they driven by hate or greed?
        
        I invite you read it and see for yourself if it is, indeed, "a collection of fiction". Only then can you speak with authority. Otherwise you must continue to be a parrot.
      - petroskhan
        
        Nice try, Vlad.
        
        You asked for a source. I gave it. The "opinion" I'm relying on is your own faiths' founders, and other well-regarded members and leaders of the Mormon faith.
        
        Are they deceitful? Yes, they are. They are liars, blasphemers, and evil men. They're called Mormons.
        
        I have, this time and every time, quoted from YOUR leaders, from YOUR founders, and from YOUR Book. You have NEVER answered a single allegation, nor addressed a single issue I've raised.
        
        Like a quivering coward, you hide behind pedantic repetitions of non-answers and hyperbole. You asked me a question. I gave you a direct and factual answer.
        
        Now, admit that I'm right, or prove I'm wrong.
      - Vladimir
        
        I have your quote from Elder Snow, but that didn't say what you thought it said. Care to try again. I have shown you where to find the answer to your allegations. After all you have so many. You, however, insist on ignoring that.
        
        So, my dear petroskhan, you cannot honestly say I have never answered a single allegation. What you can say is that you have resisted my attempts to assist you in discovering the answers and additional truth that will help you understand the answers.
      - petroskhan
        
        I can honestly say that you have not.
        
        I have asked many, many questions, and received nothing but insults and avoidance from Mormons.
        
        When I asked a direct question regarding core Mormon doctrine, you and every other Mormon have done everything except answer it.
        
        As for "resisting your attempts", I have asked repeatedly for you to answer simple direct questions; you have never done so.
        
        Stop lying, Vlad. It makes your cult look bad.
      - Esther
        
        No apology needed from insincere sources, that is a very bad habit of yours. You think people are stupid but they/we are not.
      - petroskhan
        
        I don't think you're stupid, Esther. A bit neurotic, maybe. Extremely hostile, definitely. Hateful in the extreme, absolutely.
      - Esther
        
        More accurately, I am knowledgeable of your dementia.
      - petroskhan
        
        Please, share your knowledge. I would be FASCINATED to hear what you've got to say. I'm eager to see if your analysis comes close to the two assessments I had to undergo to get a job I held for some time.
      - Esther
        
        You always ask for someone else to give you their digested take on a subject. That is very non-academic of you. I never do that. I never ask anyone to tell me a story that I want to know either. I read it myself. Same thing with important things. I investigate important things myself. You should learn to do that. Certain things are too important to be left for possible mis-communication.
      - petroskhan
        
        You're so right, Esther. How foolish of me. I will, this very day, go out and buy the book that contains your personal thoughts on the subject of ME. Just give me the title and author, or perhaps the ISBN, if you have that.
        
        I wouldn't want any mis-communication on the subject of your opinion about me. Just tell me where I can find this book that contains YOUR thoughts and feelings about your alleged understanding the alleged mental problems of someone you've never met.
        
        After all…we wouldn't want to be "non-academic", would we? No…we should cite our sources, shouldn't we? And, I do SO want to follow your advice: "I read it myself." I want to read this source of yours, which contains your thoughts about me.
        
        Let's be very clear.
        You said: "I am knowledgeable about your dementia."
        I replied: "Please, share your knowledge."
        
        You've now stated that I should NOT ask your for your "digested take" on the subject of YOUR knowledge. Okay, fine. Where is YOUR knowledge about ME to be found? What arcane tome contains the thoughts of Esther regarding petroskhan?
      - Esther
        
        Ask Jeff. He might tell you again. He already mentioned Sam a day or so ago.
      - petroskhan
        
        I'm sorry..I thought I WAS talking to Jeff.
        
        Either way, you made a claim to possession of some personal knowledge. Unless you've written a book on the subject of me, where else am I to find YOUR knowledge of ME, other than asking you for it?
      - Esther
        
        You are impossible.
      - Esther
        
        I like to read your posts sometimes .. this one gave me a good LOL
      - petroskhan
        
        And that's it…? How about you answer the question? Share your insight into my dementia, dear. I'm so curious. I mean, someone of such lofty credentials must have such dazzling insight into my "dementia", right? Share some, would you?
      - Esther
        
        I will protect my children… that is behind a lot of this hostility I feel towards a man who is a classic case of intolerance and disrespect while he thinks he tolerant and respectful. You are the classic case. You can think of it as trivial all you like and call me what you want. It is documented what you are and I AM a Momma Bear. Darn right I am hostile when it comes to people who threaten to limit the freedom of my children.
      - petroskhan
        
        By all means, protect your children. It's your duty as a mother. I agree with that.
        
        But…if you don't mind, let's clear something up.
        
        "I am hostile when it comes to people who threaten to limit the freedom of my children."
        
        I have questioned the validity of the Book of Mormon, and asked questions from those who purport to believe in it. How does that "limit the freedom" of anyone?
        
        With your hostility towards my skepticism, isn't THAT an attempt to limit MY intellectual freedom? What if one of your children expressed doubts about something, or simply had questions? Would you lash out with the same venom and hostility towards your child?
      - Esther
        
        My venom as you call is justified in the atmosphere you have created to limit mine. My children are reasonable people. They are similarly educated to the nastiness of your brand of religion which artificially categorizes others as demons to be subject to hell in the guise of "respect" and "tolerance." In short, sir, my children have encouraged me to this point of reason, not the other way around, not Jeff or anyone on the great blog of Zionica. You do not have intellectual freedom. My children do.
      - petroskhan
        
        Well, let's see…
        
        I asked questions. You refused to answer them, and then insulted me.
        
        I said that my religious beliefs are based on the Bible. You insulted me.
        
        I repeatedly asked that ANY Mormon answer some fundamental questions regarding Mormon faith. I was insulted, called many names, and my questions never answered.
        
        Tell me again, Esther…how have I limited your freedom?
      - Esther
        
        You are not my child. You are my adversary.
      - Esther
        
        You lie, you slander, you hate, it is so clear, even more so obvious today. Take a note Petroskhan. It is very obvious. You have abused Mormons, you will no longer abuse me when I know it without a response from me.
      - Esther
        
        You wish to trap in your web of deceit. It is clear why we have very cautiously approached you questions laced with disdain for a great man and his word for the God of my childhood who was not properly respected as he is now in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You are the loser, not the Mormons.
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir is the best friend you ever had Idiot Parrot.
      - petroskhan
        
        You have failed to further the discussion. No reply to your comment is warranted.
      - Esther
        
        The discussion is very much furthered. You are found out for the fraud you are. Sure you would like me to keep my response quiet. You do not like it that you are not so nice as you pretend. You are in fact vicious.
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir, Petroskhan is a classic case, in a rather new book by a very respected academic. I am reading about him. It is incredible. If you are wondering where I get the courage to stand against his hate, it is because it is well known all the tactics he uses to intimidate, control, and force people. We also know the character well, from the Book of Moses.
      - Esther
        
        Once again I see this is the reason I refuse to tell you anything about my religion. You are a pharisee, a bigot, a blasphemer, a hypocrite, a liar, a fraud. You are reading the anti-Mormon literature written by people or of pastors, like you, who fear their congregations will leave their enterprise (for it is not a true ministry of the Father) when they discover the truth. I knew it from the beginning about you and you complained incessantly that the Mormons would not reveal themselves to you! Ha. You are truly what the Lord has warned us about.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How could god have created anything if he was once a man? That would seem to be a big problem for the Mormons as well.
    - Evermyrtle
      
      I do not know what he taught but it is reasonable to believe, to think that he taught by his writings if he didn't he is a worse hypocrite than I thought. I did not read much of what he wrote I could stomach only so much of it. Especially, that the parents of Jesus was born of god and his goddess wife through sexual activity. That may be not the exact wording but the same words were used.I started to copy it, but it was too filthy for me. I do not know why it should bother me so much, because this is not the "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD." not my JESUS and not my GOD.
      - Esther
        
        Evermyrtle once again bears false witness.
    - Esther
      
      Evermyrtle, Petroskhan, Millergroup2 and others on this forum seek to form their own cult and regularly denigrate the Mormons vehemently. Thank you for your testimony.
      - petroskhan
        
        Pointing out that Mormonism is evil isn't denigration. It's shining a light onto a very dark and evil presence.
        
        But I'm sure you like dark places. Your head is in one, after all.
      - Esther
        
        You haven't an original idea Petroskhan. Joseph Smith saw you coming. We are prepared.
        
        We know your intentions and we are ready: Here is a bit of your history and if you want more I have plenty of it:
        
        – When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged.
      - petroskhan
        
        My history? Umm…sweetie…I'm not a Puritan. I was not in Massachusetts in the 1600's (or any other time, actually)…
        
        If that's MY history, then it would have to be yours, too, now wouldn't it?
      - Esther
        
        More IDIOT SPEECH FROM PRETROSKHAN.
      - Esther
        
        YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO CALL ME TERMS OF ENDEARMENT … IT IS DISRESPECTFUL AND FALSELY TOLERANT … DON'Y DO IT
      - petroskhan
        
        "IT IS DISRESPECTFUL AND FALSELY TOLERANT"
        
        It's disrespectful? Really, dear? I suppose I should be honored and flattered, then, that instead of engaging in civil discourse, answering my questions, and addressing any issues whatsoever, all you do is call me an idiot with every post? Look up the word "Hypocrite", sweetheart.
        
        And "falsely tolerant"? Really? How is that possible? You're either tolerant, or you're not. Make up your mind…assuming there is one there to "make up".
      - Esther
        
        You are a false Christian, a hypocrite, … your "civil" discourse is not civil at all but laced with defamation, bigotry, hypocrisy, and lies.
      - Esther
        
        You head is in the dark, probably in worse. You are a product of the Reformation, Calvinisn is the basis for the Reformation movement. In case you don't know it you are exactly like the Calvinist in attitude. It is the source of the bibles and scholarly literature. It is the philosophies of men. You do not practice religion, you practice philosophies of men. Mormons practice their religion, we are followers of Christ.
      - Bighoss
        
        Her testimony and your endorsement of it and the numerous other ignnorami who cleave to the demonstrably false Mormon cult demonstrate that the fool killer still has much work to do.
      - Esther
        
        … ACCORDING TO THE BIGHOSS AND HIS KIND.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        It is a good thing we have BIGHOSS AND HIS KIND, or we would all be going to hell!!!
      - Esther
        
        LOL
      - Esther
        
        REMEMBER BENGHAZI AND OUR FALLEN… IMPEACH THE "PRESIDENT"
  - Esther
    
    You belong to a cult Evermyrtle and you assisted in electing a Muslim president of the United States.
  - Vladimir
    
    Be careful, Evermyrtle, who you call a fool.
- Mex Seiko
  
  I'm sure and wonderful and beautiful. If it wasn't how could it attract any unsuspecting soul? That's how predators allure their victims, using soft arguments, sweet looking fruit, and good promises.
- petroskhan
  
  I'm with millergroup2 on this one. You took a HUGE step away from God in making that enormous mistake of joining Mormonism.
  
  It's logical fallacies, the contradictions of the Bible, the blasphemies of Joseph Smith, etc. The list goes on and on. Mormonism is easy to explain in one word: Wrong.
  
  " I admit we are not the so-called traditional Christain church." That's an understatement. Nearly all core doctrine of the Mormon religion is in opposition to true Christianity.
  
  "We are not based on creeds or that were made up by man." Wrong. Mormonism is based on the lies and blasphemies of Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon opposes the Bible, and is filled with historical and Biblical falsehoods.
  
  I'm not saying that Southern Baptists have everything right, either, but at least their doctrine is not directly opposed to God.
  - Esther
    
    You missed taking a huge step toward God not away from him. You are the liar and blasphemer, the supporter of Islam and its atrocities. You have no respect for God and decent people. As Jeff Dixon has said time and time again your version of who god is is full with contradictions.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      The Mormon god has the same contradictions. You will get no refuge from me, Princess.
      - Esther
        
        I do have refuge from you, provided by Jesus Christ. God saw you coming and did not leave me stranded.
beaglesmom

Even though Romney was a nice guy and might have made a good president, Mormonism is a dangerous cult..his running for president doesn't change that fact. It is not Christian in any way. The missionaries who go to the doors are just as deceived. They are blindly following a prophet who was proven a liar, and whose prophesies all were proven false, non of them came true. Pray for the Mormons who come knocking, but don't let them try to feed you their false religion.
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  When they come to my house, they leave crying and wondering if they are in the truth, which they are not
  - Esther
    
    You may have an effect you like upon these young people, but they know who they are and they will not only survive, they will be back in the arms of Christ, who will reclaim them.
    - petroskhan
      
      They'll be in the arms of Christ right after leaving the Mormon "religion" and its lies and blasphemies.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        They might embrace Hinduism or Scientology It is rather presumptive to assume they will become Christians.
      - Esther
        
        Well Jeff, Petroskhan and Evermuddled and their minions did effectively vote for the Muslim this week.
      - petroskhan
        
        Esther, your comments continue to amaze and astound.
        
        Just to show you and anyone bored enough to read your comments just how intolerably stupid your statements can be…here's a nugget of information for you.
        
        I voted my conscience, dearie. Which meant that I could not, in good faith, vote for EITHER candidate. I voted on local issues of import to me, for city and county representatives, etc. But neither presidential candidate was worthy of the support of anyone who considers himself a Christian.
        
        Seeing yet how wrong you are every single time? You are walking proof of the wisdom of the old adage regarding making assumptions.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        If and when Obama lives up to his promise to Putin regarding his ability to have more flexibility to act after the election, let us hope that this promise does not destroy our military, our allies or our economy. You may have felt the need to vote your conscience, but your decision merely helped Obama retain his position. Sometimes, the lessor of two evils is the better choice.
      - petroskhan
        
        I understand your view completely. It's just that, in my mind, the lesser of two evils is still evil.
        
        And voting for someone, to me, is an endorsement. It means that you support that person. I didn't support Romney. I do not agree with him on several issues. Why should I vote for him?
        
        If some sector of the population was not behind him, then isn't that HIS failing, and not theirs?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, it is a failing of Romney that he could not get more people to agree with him. However, that is not the only issue. If people disagree with someone, they generally vote for the other person. However, that is not what occurred. People decided to not vote at all because they disagreed with Romney. While that view, by itself, is perfectly fine, that view is not by itself. That view has the addition of knowing that if Romney is not elected, it is very possible and indeed occurred, that Obama would be re-elected. Therefore, you and millions like you, decided that not voting for someone was more important than not voting. That is your right. But it does not change the reality that by not voting, the election was handed to Obama.
        
        I truly hope my opinion on what he wants to change in America is wrong. But if I am not wrong, I hope you can live with knowing that your views and the views of millions like you, allowed an American president to destroy America.
      - petroskhan
        
        "I hope you can live with knowing that your views and the views of millions like you, allowed an American president to destroy America."
        
        My answer to that is simple. We, the people, have the right, in fact the obligation, to hold our elected representatives accountable for their actions. Should they violate their oaths of office, we have the responsibility to demand that action be taken. In an extreme case, this would include open rebellion.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        But you did not vote for Obama. Your perspective is based on an opinion that someone you voted for became someone different. Obama already has violated his oath of office.
      - petroskhan
        
        I agree that he has, and so have many in Congress. Now, people need to wake up and smell the coffee, and start realizing that their rights are being methodically eroded by the ones charged with protecting those rights.
      - Esther
        
        You are duped if you believe Petroskhan did not comment repeatedly before the election on Romney's religion. If so, you have no idea what the saints are up against with these people.
      - Esther
        
        Not to mention our citizenry including hard-working women, who have no obvious purpose to them or who may be judged to be evil. Better they become clowns for enjoyment.
      - Esther
        
        Here is a quote from your qualified debate partner:
        
        "Just to show you and anyone bored enough to read your comments just how intolerably stupid your statements can be…here's a nugget of information for you.
        
        I voted my conscience, dearie."
        
        Gee I wonder who said that and isn't that fun too? Could it be that one who commented on Romney's religion over and over on this forum.
      - Esther
        
        You are indeed delusional if you think I do not remember your stance against Romney's religion.
      - Esther
        
        You campaigned against Romney because of his religion over and over again you lying reprobate.
      - Esther
        
        Aren't you the man, Petroskhan. Now you are the one who has managed to get everyone entertained and that is your function isn't it? To bring about the very thing Kent Perry said that Jeff Dixon would do. Make a clown out of the stupid woman who has a Ph.D.
      - Esther
        
        HEY DUMMY… YES YOU PETROSKHAN DUMMY… DID YOU SAY "DEAR" OR "DEARIE"… LISTEN STUPID… DON'T LET ME SEE YOU CALL ME THAT AGAIN… WHY? BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE IT. AND LIKE KENT PERRY SAID, I AM THE CLOWN HERE, (I DO BELIEVE YOU CALLED ME THAT ONCE, YOU BUDDY JEFF WAS SUPPOSED TO DO IT, BUT YOU DID HIM A FAVOR DID YOU NOT DUMMY) SO NO, I HAVE NO REASON TO DESIST … I WILL CALL YOU OUT IF YOU USE THOSE TERMS ON ME AGAIN, IDIOT.
        
        Having fun yet, dummy?
      - Bighoss
        
        You claim to have a doctorate, yet you continue to hold the moronic notion that the President is a Muslim. What is your doctorate in–confusion??
      - Esther
        
        JEALOUS BIGHOSS? YOU HAVE LOTS OF COMPANY.
      - Bighoss
        
        Not at all, Dr. Esther. I have dozens of PhDs in my circle of friends and colleagues. None of them have been duped into believing the false historical claims, shabby doctrines and bogus literature of Mormonism. I also have plenty of friends who got no further than high school, but who are nevertheless perceptive enough to conclude that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a ranting false prophet and the Book of Mormon is both a literary and theological disaster.
      - Esther
        
        Are you jealous as well and poorly educated? 'Have to find some brains to hang out with to appease your lack? You are the idiot promoting OWEbama, am I right? Enough said.
      - Esther
        
        Ha. You must be well practiced, but still you ignore my challenge to debate in my language of quantum mechanics!
      - Esther
        
        I KNOW THAT IS YOUR STATE OF MIND, IDIOT
      - Courier du Bois
        
        Let me see, this would make it the 1,367th time you have used the word you are so fond of, i.e. idiot, in your posts on this site : D
      - Esther
        
        IDIOT PETROSKHAN, HAS ZERO CREDIBILITY
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Petro, I thought I remembered you saying you were going to vote for Romney? Was I mistaken on that?
      - petroskhan
        
        Changed my mind.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        So, we get four more years of Obama because Christians could not get behind Romney.
      - petroskhan
        
        Oh, now Obama's my fault? That's low, man…really low. LOL
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I did not say you. I said Christians. And the reality is that Christians stayed home this election. McCain had 8 million more votes from Christians four years ago. And McCain was a terrible candidate.
        
        The experts are wringing their hands trying to figure out why Romney didn't win, but now we know; there are millions of missing voters from Romney’s column and they are overwhelmingly Evangelicals.
        
        Evangelical Christians may not be evil people, but they helped an evil president gain re-election The exact numbers aren't in; but clearly, the vast majority of Evangelicals stayed home on Election Day. They weren't dealing with a storm or a personal family emergency. They stayed home because they made a conscious decision to allow Obama to continue ruining our lives rather than have a Mormon as our president.
      - petroskhan
        
        I mostly agree with you on that one. But my non-vote for Romney wasn't due to his religion, I just didn't agree with his stand on far too many issues. So, I didn't vote for him.
        
        I wish there was an option to vote against a candidate, without voting FOR another one.
      - Esther
        
        YOU LIE PETROSKHAN.
      - Esther
        
        Petroskhan is a Christian, Jeff…. Petroskhan lobbied on this forum against Romney because of his religion Jeff. Who is at war with Petroskhan?
      - Esther
        
        You are the low-class idiot, Petroskhan.
      - Esther
        
        Yep. People just like you. You are low, man, really low.
      - Esther
        
        Low-class
      - petroskhan
        
        Yes, I stated that if you and Vlad were typical of Mormons, then I would rather vote for Obama, just to spite you. I said that to get a rise out of you, and I freely admit that.
        I should probably express some regret over telling a falsehood like that, but seeing how upset you are, I am just too tickled to actually feel any regret, so expressing regret that I don't feel would be dishonest, and I would hate to be dishonest.
        LOL
      - Esther
        
        Glad to have finally come across this piece of devil's spew, Pet.
      - Esther
        
        It is not the Mormon's fault you get treated badly. It is your fault.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        And it is your fault that you get treated so badly. But whine and cry some more.
      - Esther
        
        like you do when it comes to Kent Perry
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I have never once whined or complained about Kent, princess. I merely show his own words so that people can see just how deranged he is. But you idolize him, so I understand your trying to defend him.
      - Esther
        
        k! I get the message, Mr. Dixon. I do not mean to idolize anyone. Please send me that nasty note from Kent Perry about hurting you, with the comment link, if you don't mind. I am sorry that I did not know the extent of his hate for you. I do not keep up with these conversations.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        He has not hurt me, but he has threatened me. And I shared this information with you on Facebook when I assumed we were friends and before you went insane for the horrible thing I did when I suggested you were not being fair to someone. Oh, the horror of it. Imagine telling the all mighty Esther that she might be unfair and might want to reconsider her point of view. Why, I should have been strung up and flogged. But you found the next best thing. A pack of lies told endlessly and continuously.
        
        As I recall, you voiced concern that he might do something to me. But now you pretend you know nothing of that conversation. You are a really a sad individual.
      - Esther
        
        Are you going to send me the comment link?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I do not have it.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        BTW, I found one of Kent's blogs. Here is your idol in all of his glory.
        
        "Hitchens is so repugnant, so repulsive a person, I will say right here and now, If I ever see that guy at an airport or in a public restroom where their are no witnesses, he will never forget meeting me. Hitchens is a punch in the face waiting to happen and if the opportunity ever presents itself, I will take full advantage of it with extreme prejudice. Spare me the mundane platitudes about a Christian reputation to live up to, that's between me and the lord and in this case, I have a feeling, being made in the lords image, I am just a chip off the old block and he will be looking the other way, or turning the other cheek so to speak hehe. ."
        
        http://kentperry.blogspot.com/
      - Esther
        
        That will do. Please stop calling him my idol. I have no idols. Thanks.
      - Esther
        
        On abortion providers: http://godfatherpolitics.com/9955/planned-parenthood-patient-torture-lawsuit/ Kent Perry is a real nut job when it comes to baby-killers. That is true.
      - Esther
        
        Listen carefully: You have a learning problem. I do not idolize any man. I idolize Jesus Christ.
      - Esther
        
        Why are you claiming that I said I do not know about the information? I have never denied that! But you obscure the issue by demanding I "cry uncle" that I admit to having Kent Perry as an idol. How are Kent's threats worse than your character assassination of me? … According to you then, my being against infanticide makes me think I am "all mighty"… and desire to see you "flogged"… telling packs of lies!!! A bit over the top, Mr. Pretends to be an Humanitarian. Careful, Sir, when I told you how much I DID respect you that does not mean I will not point out inconsistencies in your thought that degrade my family and the human race. You can blast it from the highest mountain — and you have — I don't care if we did have sexual relations in our chat rooms — That does not make me a murderer, nor do I condone murder, though you would like to make it so. I am really a sad individual? No Sir, You are really a sad individual.
      - Esther
        
        Did you get the message? I said: You are the sad individual, atheist. I am praying for the redemption of your soul.
      - Esther
        
        You whine and complain all the time about Kent Perry. What can I do about two lunatics fighting?
      - YO mama
        
        At least Romney has a real birth certificate.
      - YO mama
        
        It wouldn't be your first mistake Jeff. Don't let it bother you too much.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Mistakes do not bother me, Joe. Neither do circle flies.
      - Esther
        
        He made it crystal clear that not only would he not vote for Romney, he was on the blogs expressing his excrement on the subject, Jeff! This man whom you find a worthy debate opponent, a talking snake. Check out his comments the day or so before the election.
      - Esther
        
        Again this evening you express your filth about good people to elevate your own position. You are one despicable man.
      - petroskhan
        
        Ah, yes, my "filth about good people" who follow a false prophet, and cling to teachings that in opposition to the Bible. How despicable of me!
        Wait…what is so filthy about saying that people should follow the Bible? And what is so despicable about me? Be as detailed and accurate as possible, please.
      - Esther
        
        The reference is a general one for your constant badgering about my religion as though yours is better and yours is only a personal one, similar to the first day that Joseph decided not to choose any and decided to go off on his own. If you study the valid scholars of the book of Mormon, instead of all the anti-Mormon stuff you might learn why I have an attitude against people who talk about my religion like you do, as though you know anything about it.
    - Courier du Bois
      
      "young people"–I believe these folks that come to your door from the LDS are called "elders"! This is as hilarious as Jeff with his repetitive absurdities. Doc Esther you need to get a real degree my friend.
      - Esther
        
        Joe Anzolotti again. 5points Calvinists are satan worshipers. Period. Not those who fled the heinous tactics of the Presbyterians a did Joseph and his family.
      - Esther
        
        Still jealous of my doctorate Joe. That really bothers you, and I know why. Lots of people have them Joe. Just go get one. You could do it in as little as 3 or 4 years. But they are costly. Hate to tell ya!
      - petroskhan
        
        Yeah, you have to send off in the mail, give them 20 bucks or so to print one up for you…those mail order "documents" are pricey.
      - Esther
        
        It is unfortunate for idiots like yourself, mine is genuine.
      - petroskhan
        
        Okay, Esther, whatever you say. It's you lie, tell it how you like.
      - Esther
        
        YOU ARE AN IDIOT
      - Esther
        
        I do not lie. But thanks for exposing yourself as a false witness. I know now how Christian you are, after all… not.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You lie constantly. It is one of your trademarks at this point.
      - Esther
        
        TRASH MAN, IDIOT
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        No one is jealous of your "doctorate', princess, especially when we see your limited education coming through on your posts.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Joe, are you thinking that a more pompous sounding name will help make your inane comments sound any less asinine?
      - YO mama
        
        It is still a free country. Wanted to see what all these fake names are all about. I might even try texting some time. What is this about inane comments Il Duce?
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Good for you. Knock yourself out with as many fake names as you like. But it does not matter what name is attached to your comments, they are still worthless.
        
        It is also humorous, for I remember many months ago when you stated you agreed with me that people should use their actual name. I see that, once again, you have no fixed convictions.
      - Esther
        
        Still jealous?
  - Bighoss
    
    That is how they leave after visiting my house, but no matter how clearly you show them the truth, they always use that facile, self-deceptive escape device, namely that they prayed to God to tell them whether the Book of Mormon is true and whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet and that God told them yes on both counts. You can not overcome emotion with facts or logic.
    - Vladimir
      
      You've been taken to the wood shed already about dissing the Bible, Bighoss. Why do you persist? The Bible quite clearly states that if you lack wisdom, and I think we all qualify on that point, ask God and He will give you wisdom.
      
      You can't convince me that the Bible is wrong and God won't do what the Bible promises because I have followed the Bible's admonition and God does give wisdom. The Bible is right!
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir, Petroskhan tells me you are ashamed of me. Please tell me if this is so and why. You do know I have no respect whatsoever for Catholics or Protestants of his kind. You find them teachable. I don't. And one of the tenets of our faith to see others as children of God. That has not been possible since I first met these people on this forum May 30, 2012. I think PET is an idiot. I can seem to get over that feeling of his being a snake oil salesman.
      - petroskhan
        
        Sorry to intrude into your mewling before Vlad, but I'm neither a Catholic nor Protestant. Just FYI.
      - Vladimir
        
        I have enjoyed the rough and tumble, back and forth between you and those with less knowledge who rely on detractor websites for their sources. I think, petroskhan gets frustrated and lashes out to hurt. I am not ashamed of you, Esther, and have not stated or suggested that.
      - Esther
        
        You haven't ever that I have seen. I don't know of a good Saint who would. But he told me you said so somewhere. I took his word for it because I have exercised some old Catholic temper that is the only way I can deal with their trash. My testimony abounds in here of the Good "Mormons", really the Saints.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  And Obama's view of Christianity is better?
Joanne Poole

Too bad you don't know what you are talking about Duke1CA. The least informed usually talk the loudest just like most liberals. It's best to remain silent and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Steve03

If Mormonism is evil, then every Christian who voted for Romney is guilty of aiding and abetting that evil. You've sold your souls for the promise of a tax cut for your bosses.
- Evermyrtle
  
  They thought that they were voting the lesser of two evils, did you vote,for the liberal Kenyan?
  - Steve03
    
    They were mistaken.
    I always vote for the candidate whose policies taken as a whole best conform to the teachings of Christ and the Biblical job description of the secular leader set forth most succinctly in Psalm 72 and elaborated throughout the prophets and the New Testament.
    By the way, the President of the United States is not a Kenyan. If you believe the birthers' lie, you are deluded. If you repeat it without believing it you are neither a Christian nor a patriot.
    - petroskhan
      
      I'm not convinced he's a Kenyan…but I am convinced that he's British. :D
  - Esther
    
    You voted for the MuslimEvermyrtle. I saw you were campaigning for the Muslim as well.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  Or a return to fiscal responsibility and real economic growth.
Evermyrtle

If i know they are Mormons they will never enter my home. The practice blasphemy as a common thing.To get to the bottom of what they bevel go to Joseph Smith's writing on the internet. It may take you a while to get to the real stuff so don't give up.
- Bighoss
  
  I do let them in my home, because I know more about the sordid history and bizarre doctrines of their cultic belief system than they do, and I make them squirm But they always fall back on that pitiful old emotional, irrational assertion that they know they are right because they asked God if they were and He told them so.
  - Vladimir
    
    So according to Bighoss, we should all avoid James 1:5. I wonder what he's afraid of?
    - petroskhan
      
      No, we should all avoid the Book of Mormon, the teachings of Satan…I mean, Joseph Smith, and the liars who follow him.
      
      It's all fine and dandy to constantly quote the same verse, as though it somehow defends or condones your blasphemies, Vlad, but the weight of evidence and the Bible itself argue completely against the Book of Mormon, and the anti-God teachings of Joseph Smith.
      
      You, and other Mormons, know this is true, and that is why you all refuse to discuss these issues, or to answer any questions regarding Mormon doctrine. You lie, dissemble, and avoid the discussion, because it will only lead to proving how wrong and un-Christian your "faith" truly is.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        One lie being the bible is correct if translated properly, guess what Vlad, there will be saints in hell, those that believe the many lies of Joe! With all the corrections to the BOM you would think you sit down and begin to wonder!!!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Given that there is not one original manuscript, how would you ever know if the bible is translated properly? It might be translated properly based on the most recent copy, but you could never know if that copy was without error.
        
        You are basing your entire perspective on a concept with no foundational support.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        I study the Aramaic peshitta which was written in the original Aramaic language . When it was copied there were other people present to make sure each letter was copied correctly. It was just in the past few years translated into English by a man ( George M Lamsa ) who was raised in the middle east Israel area , who speaks in the near original languge that Jesus and all the Israel region spoke in. Therefore well qualified to translate the original Aramaic into English.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That sounds just peachy, but since there is nothing to compare it to, there is no way to know that mistakes were not actually made. Even today, you see examples of papers being prepared that get reviewed by multiple sources and yet mistakes still happen with them.
        
        You also conveniently overlook the reality that before these stories were written down, they were oral traditions. And as the age old game of telephone shows, people change what they hear when they repeat it.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        False, once again Jeff, When Jesus told his disciples to go to the lost tribes of Israel , when they went THEY wrote the Gospels, I know you don't want to believe that , but what else can you expect from a non Born Again ,natural man ,in the dark man to think
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Ever hear of the Old Testament?
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        God is incomparable
    - Pastor Dwayne
      
      Vlad,, you and your like have a head knowledge of Jesus but are not born again according to Bible standards , therefore the guy you ask for wisdom is the bad guy, even though the bad guy says I am the Father listen to my wisdom, What did Jesus say about satan. he is a liar and the father of lies. there fore when satan is conversing to you he truly can say i'm your father listen to me!!!!
    - Esther
      
      Correct Vladimir!!! Evermyrtle, Pastor Dwayne, Bighoss, Petroskhan they all avoid James 1:5. If it weren't so serious, it would be laughable. They are afraid … they do not know the difference between the Spirit of God and the evil spirit!!! See Pastor Dwayne's comment. THEY DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. I JUST REALIZED WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
      - petroskhan
        
        Ah, yes…let's keep tossing this verse out there…
        
        "5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
        
        And that verse excuses the blasphemies of Mormonism, right? That makes the false prophecies of Joseph Smith all true, right?
        
        Until you can muster the courage to actually answer some questions regarding that farce you call a religion, you would be best served by being silent, fool.
      - Pastor Dwayne
        
        Esther,,,Whether you like it or not , I spoke the truth,,,, Oh,, I use , and apply James 1:5 all the time. I was using James 1:5 when you were still in diapers.If James 1:5 were not in the Bible you would be lost and undone, instead of studying the Bible to find out the truth you listen to voices of WISDOM, Oh Father is Joe Smith a true Prophet, the voice of wisdom would say yyeeesss, if you studied the Bible You would know for a fact Jo Smith was and is a False Prophet! Oh Father ist the L D S the restored and only true church , the voice of wisdom would say yyeeessss, IF you studied the BIBLE you would know, like all true Christians and Saints you would know that L D S is 100% FALSE!!! A Christian and Saint thou art not
      - Esther
        
        Negative Dwayne, but I don't expect you would know better.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  They are not even welcome to come into your home? Wow.
  - Esther
    
    Jeff, we are sending them to your town. :)
Mex Seiko

As the Church Age comes to an end, Islam, LDS, Islam, New Age, even Atheism are on the rise.
- petroskhan
  
  You must really like Islam…you mentioned it twice. (Joke, by the way.)
  - Mex Seiko
    
    Good catch. I must've edited tat posting fifteen times before sending it, and it went with that error anyway.
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  And after the Bible says don't add to or take away, Mormons and most cults add to or take away.
  The 2 sticks of Ezekiel mormons believe the stick of Judah stands for the bible , the stick of Ephraim stands for the book of mormon, In reality the truth of the word translated stick literally means tree, wood, or pole. The stick is the emblem of the royal scepter. Thus the stick of Judah represents the southern kingdom, the stick of Joseph is the northern kingdom… Ezekiel the prophet was predicting the restoration and future union of the two kingdoms. once more people stealing promises to Israel to put their doctrine to work, once again the L D S ' are a fake religion.
  - Vladimir
    
    Both sticks are held in one hand and were written upon. Doesn't sound like he's talking about kingdoms, Pastor Dwayne. Sounds like scrolls to me.
    - Esther
      
      We make little scrolls for the six-year-olds to write their personal journals. No, not everything a saint writes becomes scripture. But every thing a saint writes becomes a history of their people..
      - Bighoss
        
        But when the "saint" is a "prophet, seer and revelator" serving as The Prophet of the Mormon Cult and when that "revelator" lets loose a bunch of doctrine claimed to be absorbed directly from God and writes it down for the ages, then he and his cult are stuck with THAT particular piece of prophetic twaddle. That is why Mormons get so evasive when some of the more absurd elements of their doctrines are exposed to scrutiny.
      - Esther
        
        You believe you have understanding. Your rant against The Church of Jesus Christ is as full of holes as is your stance for the Muslim president. You have steeped yourself in lies about good people. Jeff said you are consistent. I won't argue that. You are entirely consistent in your misunderstanding.
      - Vladimir
        
        Bighoss, you especially should be able to distinguish between what is actually Mormon doctrine and what the anti-Mormons claim is Mormon doctrine, being as you are so studied and all. However, I have noticed that you have failed on many occasions to correctly distinguish between the two, confusing the personal opinions of the man with the revelations from the prophet, seer and revelator.
        
        I don't have any trouble distinguishing revelation from opinion, so to me some of your longest posts aren't worth the time you spent. But I'm a long time member and I believe in revelation from God and with His inspiration, I have a distinct advantage over you and other unbelievers
        
        And before you try and make the argument that we discard revelation that we think others will label absurd, the Lord has revealed much that the heathen ridicule, but we are grateful for everything He has revealed, we appreciate the understanding that He provides and find all of it valuable for His work on the earth.
      - Esther
        
        Bighoss, I am going to attempt teaching you something, knowing the risk: It is this: The saints worship NO MAN. Guess what? Even the prophet, seers and revelators are MEN. When men speak they speak as any minister or priest does. Prophets, seers, and revelators are common in the Lord's church of old, I don't have the scripture..But none of their many many semons are considered SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE unless over time it is carefully considered to be such. There is no actual DOCTRINE that has been added in the 14 years of my membership. The very same is true about everything Joseph Smith wrote… Very little of it is actual doctrine.
      - Vladimir
        
        I'm going to pull rank on you, Bighoss. I know more truth about Mormon teachings than will ever know because I have access to the truth and have studied it, whereas you must get your information from websites dedicated to disparaging the church.
        
        I have read the Book of Mormon. You can't or won't read it. You can only parrot anti-Mormon websites. You claim to be knowledgeable but your criticism of us is designed to appeal only to the ignorant. To those of us who are knowledgeable your "absurd elements" only make you look absurd.
        
        You have no interest in the truth, because when you've been shown how to find it, you mock the Bible. You arrogantly present error and call it truth. You are reduced to calling Mormons "deluded" because they have something you can't comprehend. It is confusion to you.
        
        You repeat accusations after you've been shown where you are wrong. You present your opinions as fact. In short you are a mess. So once again I invite you to actually read the Book of Mormon before you represent yourself as an expert on it again.
        
        There is a passage in the Book of Mormon that comes to my mind every time you start in on the church. It goes like this,
        
        "O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish."
        
        I hope you have eyes to see, Bighoss.
      - Esther
        
        Vladimir, I hope I did not misrepresent the fact about doctrine in my comment below to bighoss, … I explained that doctrine is not everything said by a prophet, seer. and revelator or anyone. They are always quoting what someone said instead of the Book of Mormon. Please read my comment and tell me if I have it right. It irritates me so much all the awful things he says about our history, but I do not know our history all that well. Actually I do know our church history, what I don't know the stuff he throws at me. Thank you.
        
        Is it in the old testament about the prophet, seer and revelator? I could not find it in KJV.
      - Bighoss
        
        Esther, you say: "They are always quoting what someone said instead of the Book of Mormon."
        
        Do you know why it is so often the case that when I or others cite Mormon doctrine, we do not cite it as being from the Book of Mormon? Simply, Esther, because a huge proportion of the heretical and fanciful doctrinal error taught by Mormons is just not addressed in the Book of Mormon. It is, instead, stuff that various Mormon "Prophets" (better described as False Prophets) have uttered and have caused to persist in print down to the present era, so that we can read the absurd twaddle they propagated to their naive and ignorant followers. The Mormon "someones" who have said so many silly things down through the decades would have done well to cull out some of the more egregious and unbelievable things they have said and are now stuck with, thanks to Herr Gutenberg's wonderful invention.
      - Esther
        
        That is exactly why I wrote what I wrote earlier. Official Doctrine resides solely in the quad: KJV, BofM, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, ONLY. Scripture in the LDS church is no more the off the cuff quote from a President of the church as the local Presbyterian minister's sermon on Sunday. Which is to say they both have the necessary goal to edify.
      - Bighoss
        
        But Esther, the Doctrine & Covenants is full of nutty things proclaimed by the "prophets" of the LDS cult. And the D & C IS one of the official sources you have listed. I have several times on this forum quoted from the D & C only to have Vlad or others ignore the embarrassing content of those "prophetic" nutterances or accuse me of not understanding Mormon authority. You guys can't have it both ways. When I give it to you straight out of the D & C, you gotta accept that as official stuff.
        
        Indeed it is amusing to cruise the D & C online and see the wacky stuff that the "prophets" of Mormonism have come up with from time to time. It is almost as much fun to read as "The Beastly Beatitudes of Balthazar B" or the gonzo journalism of the late Hunter S. Thompson.
      - Esther
        
        Yes, Doctine and Covenants is official doctrine. No doubt about it. However, one absolute gift of baptism is the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit, as you quoted earlier. That is the gift of discernment. Do you know what that means, or must I explain?
      - Esther
        
        Like I said BigCreep you are still suspect.
      - Esther
        
        All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves nor alike clear unto all, yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and open in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them. Ps. 119: The word is a lamp unto my feet.
      - Bighoss
        
        I DO "have eyes to see," Vladimir. And one very significant thing that I can see is that the great majority of Mormon doctrine is NOT to be found in the Book of Mormon. The enormously, egregiously bizarre doctrines of Mormonism, such as human attainment to godhood status, God as a person with a physical body begetting Jesus through physical SEXUAL congress with Mary, the inane notion that Adam was a participant in creating this world, and Brigham Young's proclamation that it "if a white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the blood of Cain, the penalty, under this law of God, is death on the spot."(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, Page 110) are doctrines not to be found in the Book of Mormon. I could list many more, Vlad, but that should be enough to make the point.
        
        Consistently you deny the things I have proven about your cult, its history, and its bogus theology. I really believe that you think you can blow that kind of smoke on this forum and persuade some readers to believe that you have successfully rebutted the documented, intellectually indisputable things that I have posted to show without question the heretical and irrational things claimed by the so-called "prophets" of your cultic church. But that doesn't cut the mustard, Vlad. There is far too much indisputable evidence available to support the analysis of your cult for what it truly is–a crazy-quilt patchwork of myth, fable, bogus history and crackpot doctrines invented by human false prophets who have deceived many and who continue to deceive.
        
        I probably have access to more documentation about Mormonism than you do, Vlad, including official documents of the LDS Church. And of course I have read materials that have been written by non-Mormons and by ex-Mormons concerning the Mormon cult. The Mormon hierarchy would prefer that its subjects confine their studies of Mormonism to materials the cult is comfortable with endorsing, but in today's world that just doesn't work very well; there is just TOO MUCH information available from too many sources for that to happen. Intelligent folk understand that in order to learn about anything as controversial and as unorthodox as Mormonism, it is folly to rely only upon information that has the approval of the cult.
        
        It is time for you to cease and desist your vain attempts to discredit me with generalized and un-explicated accusations. It is time for you to actually address the specifics of such issues as I have listed above and other issues I have raised that you blithely ignore. Start out with God as a physical person with sexual equipage that he allegedly used to impregnate Mary and produce the baby Jesus. THAT could use some explanation, Vlad, since the vast majority of persons who believe the New Testament believe that its account of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ is the one inspired by God and that conversely, the Mormon version of divine thrusting, ejaculatory, orgasmic, egg-and-sperm sexual intercourse is just too crazy to contemplate.
http://twitter.com/ezek37 Eileen Karan

Why would anyone want to believe in such a ridiculous religion. We have the bible we don't need the book of morons.
- Esther
  
  Many, many good people love this exceedingly good religion. We love it so much, we need it. And it never fails us like some things we love.
  - Bighoss
    
    Many people, both good and evil, are entirely deluded and deceived by many versions of religion. Mormonism happens to have corralled a bunch of these gullible dupes, including you.
    - Esther
      
      And you are the designated piper for these lemmings… ha ha …. we have you figured out, you stupid "leader", for the emperor who has no clothes.
Mary

You people really crack me up. You think you know how the government should be run and yet you can't even agree on a definition of Christianity. Whose version is supposed to be in charge? We have literally thousands of denominations in this country.
Separation of church and state people. Without it we would not be a united country.
- Esther
  
  Of course the Puritans, aka the Presbyterians, aka the Reformed, they are gearing up to do just that. They use almost strictly the word reformed now and many different sects are coalescing under the umbrella.
- Glen S
  
  Actually Mary, the definition of the true Gospel is found easily in Galatians 1. Those who argue for another Gospel are in the wrong. The only true Christianity is that which teaches faith in Jesus and acceptance of His Grace alone for Salvation. If it adds a book or teaching which does not square with the written word of God, and/or it adds a work to be done by us to the gift of Grace; it is a false-gospel and is not true Christianity.
  - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
    
    The Old Testament stated not to add anything to the word of god. That has not kept Christians from doing that very thing with the New Testament.
    
    Deuteronomy 4:2
    “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it”
    
    Deuteronomy 12:32
    "See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it"
    - Vladimir
      
      According to your interpretation of Deuteronomy, Jeff Dixon, we must throw out every thing that follows, including the whole New Testament.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        I am not the one who created the verse. It was supposedly written or inspired by god.
      - Vladimir
        
        But you are the one who misused it, Jeff Dixon.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The verse is very specific. How do you interprete it?
      - Vladimir
        
        Don't add to or subtract from what is written in Deuteronomy.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        But the verse does not say anything along those lines.
        And where in the bible are these limitations placed on other verses? Does the comment about turn the other cheek only apply if someone actually slaps your face as opposed to hitting you on the arm?
      - Vladimir
        
        It is the modern equivalent of a copy write. See Revelations 22:18 for another example. "Turn the other cheek" is a message about forgiveness. This is all religion 101, much below your usual comments.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        The basics are where much learning takes place.
      - Schawminator
        
        Jeff may be a bone smoking non-Christian.
      - Esther
        
        That particular book, Deuteronomy, as all the other books were written independently, and then meetings were held by churchmen to decide which went where to collate them into the Holy Bible.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Yes, men decided what books were the word of god. Ironically, god had nothing to do with the decisions.
      - Esther
        
        Men who believed in Our Father in heaven, as limited as they were in information. And now the atheist, Dawkins wants to own the bible, so you can make fun in your church of Atheism for which your cult is buying up old Christian churches for the purpose.
      - Esther
        
        You mean it is your interpretation. How is your plot to form a church progressing? :!
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        How are the sessions with your shrink going? You really need professional help with your obsession with lying.
      - Esther
        
        I do not lie. I am not Hollyweird. I have no shrink. You just told another lie. And you know I have not been sick in many years, not even a cold. The only illness I had was to do with two things: one, a chemical lab accident and two, a running injury. I know how to care for my health and also, neither of my children have ever been on drugs for attention disorder as many, many kids are on today.. If you think it is normal to be on drugs, and you are on mental drugs, I see now why you have problems with me. Drugged people and I are on different wavelengths and they can barely stand my energy. So you might see your shrink. I hear you state is the shrink capital of the world.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        You are the one who lied about me molesting kids and being gay. I merely asked a question. I did not state anything.
      - Esther
        
        You are a scary man to me. I would not allow any of my girls alone in your presence. You do act gay, the old timey kind when their hatred for women was obvious and they did not know enough to show some respect to women, just like you. I know you say you are not, but you also say you are not lying and I know you are lying.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        Good, I am glad you would not allow ur kids around me. I am sure they are as annoying as you are.
      - Esther
        
        You are a cad. You are the annoying one. My children are pleasant and respectful people.
      - Esther
        
        Btw, you are the one who brought up the word "molesting kids". I did not. It is your common rhetorical device to ramp up and tell some more about the big lie you always tell about me.
  - Esther
    
    Glen S: Madam Mary Rogers, Jeff Dixon's cohort, was banned from Zionica.
    - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
      
      And the lying continues. I have never met Mary Rogers and she certainly is not my cohort.
      - Esther
        
        Liar
frawgeyz

ch
The fact that Mitt ran for the presidency does not mean, as the author said, that people are more accepting of Mormonism. Romney was forced upon the people by the GOP and people voted for him
because Obama was the other choice! Sheesh!
- Esther
  
  The Evangelical vote would have sealed the presidency for Mitt Romney. The fact that over 40% of Evangelicals abstained, actually sealed the presidency for Barach Obama.
  - frawgeyz
    
    I agree Esther, and shame on them! They voted for Obama by not voting at all.
    What I said was that those who voted for Mitt were not voting for Mormonism.
    Read again what I said. The author claimed that acceptance of mormonism had a part with those of us who voted for Mitt,That is absurd.
    I personally do not believe that the corrupt GOP wanted to win this election! Romney also lost to McCain in '08. Is there no one else as far as the good ole boys are concerned?
    Those who voted for Romney actually voted against Obama( not because they are more accepting of mormonism) and that is all there is to it!
    Those who didn't vote because of Romney's religious affiliations, or for any other reason, also voted for Obama!
    - Esther
      
      Thank you sincerely for that confirmation.
      - frawgeyz
        
        you are welcome my dear fellow American. Be safe.
  - Bighoss
    
    Good for those abstaining evangelicals. The did the country a big favor. Abstinence is often a very god thing!
    - Esther
      
      Who are you taking to idiot? To yourself? Neglect the taxpayer, you know the 53%. We shall drop off the cliff altogether is where your emperor owebama will take us. Mitt's policies will save this country yet. And you know it, Idiot, dream on.
craigmayberry

People who actually know Yahowa (God's real name) also know that organized religion is to be looked at askance in almost all instances. While Roman Catholicism may seem closer to Christian orthodoxy than Mormonism it is Christian orthodoxy in other words Christian core beliefs that need to be revamped and come in to line with what the Torah actually teaches. Yahowsha (Jesus' real name)
taught from the Torah and Christianity has a lot of work to do to strip away the accretions of 2000 years of meddling with the actual word of God. That being said Mormonism can be compared to Louis
Farrakan's flights of fancy about a mothership in space in it's bizarreness. Moromonism is no more Christian than Islam.
- Esther
  
  Definitely true on the Catholics issue, but reform there as impossible as it is in Islam. And, completely false on the "Mormon" Islam connection. It is laughable the lengths people will go to, to demonize the saints (Mormon is just a nickname). You are reading copious lies about the saints. People are very afraid of the truth of the saints because folks would join in droves.
  - craigmayberry
    
    Well if you're a "Saint" and aren't we all, then you believe that there are many gods and each one has his own planet and the people on each planet answer only to their particular god, while God himself said there is only one God. So someone's fibbing here. I vote that it is the human beings who make up the "Saints" that couldn't find the truth if it bit them on their heinies. By the way only men in the "Saints" are eligible for godhood so you're relegated to concubine status or some such. Much closer to the idiotic 70 virgins concept than it is any where near biblical Christianity.
    - Esther
      
      I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is obvious you do not know what it is and you are not in a sane mode to find out. I refer you to my former comment to you.
      - craigmayberry
        
        You can ask several Mormons "what it is" and you'll get several answers as they try to dissemble so as not to seem too bizarre to normal people. Interesting that you immediately resort to name calling and ad-homonym attack. The truth is Mormonism was started by a con man who wanted to be able to take women and other men's wives for his own use when ever he wanted to. It's instructive to learn a little bit about the men who start these religions. Mormonism and Islam share some interesting similarities. Seems mere men aren't too imaginative.
      - Esther
        
        Gotcha. Very much the standard out of the false-Christian playbook.
      - http://www.facebook.com/craig.mayberry.1 Craig Mayberry
        
        "False Christian" Who's the false chirstian? You, a believer in a religion that changes the actual christian doctrine in direct contradiction to the scriptures which levels a curse on those who do so. Or me who believes in normal, pre Roman Catholic, basic Christian doctrine as espoused by Yahowsha and taught in the Torah?
      - Esther
        
        You are the false Christian.
      - Esther
        
        Wrong but most Christians do not fully investigate the Mormon church and invest their time reading the anti-Mormon stuff and the non-scriptural stuff which the church shares readily, which they see online. So I know exactly what you are saying. I hear it all the time, but I have fully investigated the church and the one thing that is the most profound thing about the church is that it is an open book. Their are no back room meetings or any authority in the sense other than that the Melchizedek priesthood holders have the authority to perform ordinances, and help others. They see to it that we follow Jesus Christ in all our interactions with humanity, where ever the help is needed. They never tell us how to vote, and we pray for all leaders since the congregation is made up with people from all political factions and it is against the tenet of the church to force ( or intimidate, which is in our eyes the same thing as forcing) anyone, to do anything. The church is an absolute follower of Jesus Christ. No if, ands or buts about it. We are absolutely pre-Roman Catholic. In fact, we use the King James Bible, but we are cautioned that the book should be very carefully read since "it is true only to the extent is correctly translated." My favorite are the parables and actual quotes of Jesus Christ, alone. There are a couple of things he says that the tones are harsh… eg. where he says "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" We think that is a bit harsh and that Jesus would have in fact been gentler with his mother.
  - Bighoss
    
    Mormonism needs no "Islam connection." Mormonism is so thickly encrusted with a Masonic connection that there is no room to wedge in any Muslim stuff.
- Bighoss
  
  It is beyond me why so many names of God and Jesus get propagated by so many of you folks who seem to think that knowing the "real names" of these deities is something special. But beyond that, it is astonishing that there are so many of you out there who want to create some kind of chimerical theological system that hybridizes Christianity with the Mosaic law. Talk about "meddling with the actual word of God! Have none of you read what the book of Hebrews teaches on this matter?
  
  Good grief! Such confusion!
- Esther
  
  Bizarre? You have not had a real session with real scholars of the Book of Mormon obviously.
aceituna

A thought!!! What was the first sin, the sin that caused Eve and then Adam to take the fruit? What was the lie that Satan told them while tempting them? Was it not that they would become as God knowing good and evil? Wasn't that the desire that led them to take the fruit? Read Genesis 3:1-20. The first sin was the desire to be equal with God. So what do the Mormans preach? "As man is, God was, As God is so can man become." That is the basic fault of the Morman religion.
- http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
  
  According to your book, Lucifer rebelled before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Therefore, the original sin was the fault of an angel, not the humans.
  - Esther
    
    You have to admit it is an exciting story, Jeff. Please be honest. Remember Lucifer was already a son of perdition so had no business on the earth other than, as a spirit, to test the resolve of the children of God who had gained a residence on earth for the sole purpose to exercise their faith by their free will so as to return to the father in a way that would please him. Lucifer could never gain residence on earth because he had already chosen a life of perdition, so Adam and Eve were the first of their kind.
- Esther
  
  I see it this way: First, we are not taught absolutes like you think we are taught. The only knowledge we have is that knowledge testified to by the Holy Ghost. It is a knowledge one person has that is compared to no other person. This means our knowledge is very scant to begin with… so you see most of us would think it is pretty ridiculous what you just said! In other words, all of us are extremely lacking in comparison to God.
  
  Having said this, and If you don't understand it please ask, I just want you to think about how one could progress in a million years of learning new things. Consider that the saints (the ones you call the Mormons) have an eternal perspective. Do you think you could learn more in a million years?
  
  Well God, as we have surmised, forget Jeff for the moment, has an infinity of knowledge, having always been and will always be. Do you really thing the saints believe we can ever have as much knowledge as our Father. Be reasonable, because we really are.
  
  There are many who neglect the practical aspect of our religion because it is so easy to understand most people when hearing about the truth of what we believe would gravitate towards it and they would love it.
  - Bighoss
    
    Esther, "learn[ing] more in a million years" does not get one into godhood status. Progression to a higher state of learning is NOT progression to a the status claimed by Mormons, where a "progressed" man can have his own enormous harem of celestial wives (vastly more than the Muslim's 72!) with which to endlessly copulate and propagate zillions of chillens with which to populate his own planet. That old Mormon adage ("As man is, God was, As God is so can man become.") just won't go away, will it–much as you 21st Century Mormons wish it would? It is like so much else of Mormon history and doctrine. Those past false prophets of your disordered belief system were so confident of their wisdom and superiority that they were not reluctant to leave the very extensive paper trail of embarrassing documentation that is available to intelligent people today to read and critique. Meanwhile, within the Mormon church itself, that inconvenient trove of uncomfortable information gets low priority. But it is all still there to amaze and amuse those who take the trouble to learn the truth about your cult.
    - Esther
      
      There you go once more.. Is there more evidence of your lacking the grace of the Saviour? Your mind is full of lies, due to your jealousy. Whatever it is, it is preventing you from practicing your faith. No, He will not know you. I don't care if you were the teachers pet and you have a 100 doctoral friends. And all those hours you put in learning sentence structure results in a no content message. At least my diction is honest. My life has been spent solving applied math problems, but that fact does not perturb you because the forum is only for people with your expertise [YOUR IDEA NOT MINE.] You are fully a man to be pitied. Read EstabanCafe, you may learn something.
EstebanCafe

Yes, those evil Mormons actually Practice what we only Believe and talk about. Their works stand in witness of their faith. We're almost afraid of doing any "good works" lest we be seen as 'earning our way into heaven and not appealing to the blood of Christ." Better to claim faith and grace, have another beer, not keep the Sabboth holy, break any number of commandments and then decry those evil Mormons adhering to most everything we believe in.
"In theory, practice and theory are the same; in practice they are not." The Evangelical world (I'm including myself), there is a dearth of actually LIVING what we beleive; but, like crabs in a pot, we point to those who actually live Christian principles and say "The devil built that house" and possibly war against heaven and pull them back down to our level.
We had best rethink our sordid position or we shall one day wake up to quite a surprise. I'm going to try and be less judgemental of those outside my Christian faith–especially when they live Christian principles better than me and most of my congregation.
- Pastor Dwayne
  
  EstebanCafe have you ever wondered why they lead the good life better than we?? It ianot what you think. Go to James 1:5 and ask for wisdom to answer my question to you.
  - Vladimir
    
    Pastor Dwayne, I think there is a disconnect here. You are suppose to READ James 1:5 and ask GOD for wisdom. It would be nice to do a little work on your own first. After all we aren't down here to be spoon fed. If the information has already been given to us by God, He might expect you to follow it and quit asking for repeats.
  - Esther
    
    Pastor Dwayne: That script will open up many windows.
- Esther
  
  No alcohol. I fit right in with that recommendation.
- Bighoss
  
  Esteban, I don't know what church you are affiliated with, but from the way you describe it, you would be well advised to get out of it ASAP. And what is this "we" business. You got a mouse in your pocket tor what? It would seem that by "we" you are extending your critique to a whole lot of folks you have no way of knowing all that much about. Sure, there are some folks in the "evangelical world" who are lazy and immoral, not to mention greed-infested (disgusting televangelists spouting the "prosperity gospel"; fake faith healers, phony tongue-speakers and the like), but that in no way invalidates the inescapable conclusion that Mormonism is indeed a cult based on lies propagated by Joseph Smith, Jr. and his successors. It is not "judgmental" to look at what Mormons teach and believe and what the Bible teaches and reach the inevitable conclusion that those cultists have missed the mark on virtually everything.
  - Vladimir
    
    Bighoss, again I am scratching my head on your insistence that my church has "missed the mark on virtually everything".
    
    Is it off the mark to preach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and suffered and died to atone for our sins? It isn't, so your statement, "virtually everything" is wrong.
    
    If you are wrong once, perhaps you need to be right once to balance things out. You are the only person I know that can quote a prophet of God and then make a comment that totally demonstrates that he didn't understand a word he quoted.
    - Bighoss
      
      Getting it right about Jesus is indeed something you Mormons have missed big. You consider him a brother to Lucifer. You believe he was born of a union between Mary and God, said union consisting of physical sexual intercourse between flesh and blood beings. Where is the "virgin birth" of the Bible, Vlad?
      
      Your Mormon scriptures have his incarnation wrong and his genealogy wrong. Mormonism's blasphemous concepts concerning Jesus are unscriptural, abominable and despicable! Here–from authentic Mormon source documents is what your heretical cult teaches about Jesus and Lucifer:
      
      "Just as Jesus was the 'first-born' spirit child of our Father (Doctrine & Covenants
      93:21), so Lucifer appears to be one of those who was an early born spirit
      child, a son of the morning."—Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Doctrine and Covenants
      Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 543 on Infobases Gospel
      Library CD-ROM.
      
      "The devil (literally meaning slanderer) is a spirit son of
      God who was born in the morning of pre-existence (Doctrine. & Covenants. 76:25-26)."—Bruce
      R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft,
      1966), 192.
      
      Absurd twaddle, Vladimir!
      - Esther
        
        You are the slanderer, bighoss aka bigcreep. Mr Cafe is right and you just can't stand someone else to be right. Jesus will not know you, you don't have the vaguest idea of His being The Exemplar.
      - Vladimir
        
        And just how did Lucifer come to be, Bighoss? Fairy dust?
red nig

Anyone wanting to understand LDS, please put ex-mormon in
your browser. It comes out more LSD than saintly. I've seen too many small
children with scars from whippings–not just spankings, which I can and do
administer as needed–met adults with mental problems, demonic possession from
their laying-on of hands, heard blasphemous things that shocked me that are
taught daily. With some 40,000 complete manuscripts of the NT from the early
church and at least 6,000 from the OT period, I find it rather hard to believe
anyone would be stupid enough to believe what they claim. But then, they say
the Jews did the evil deed. That alone is enough to show them as a cult.
Galen Robsion

I am a Mormon! I know it, I live it, I love it. If you don't like it, go pound sand.
- Esther
  
  Galen Robison: So am I. Thank you.
- Glen S
  
  And Jeff Dixon and a couple of others are atheists. They know it! They live it! They love it! That does not mean that we are going to allow them spread their mistaken beliefs unchallenged.
  
  Galen, you really need to come back and read some of the ilk, Esther writes any time her point of view is taken to task.
Esther

SOS is too busy to testify on Benghazi: http://www.causes.com/causes/799184-benghazi-attack-we-demand-the-facts-surrounding-before-during-and-after-the-attack
- Bighoss
  
  Esther, "close" doesn't count except with horseshoes and hand grenades.
  - Esther
    
    response to me from a friend:
    
    "The silver lining in this cloud is Obama will definitely be remembered as a failure. He could have escaped politics w/ high ratings, but now he inherits his own "previous Administration" (i.e.- can't EVER blame Bush anymore), the coming scandals of Benghazi, etc., and skyrocketing prices on everything (esp. food, fuel, and energy). Unemployment will be chronically high for the foreseeable future. The longer Obama is around, the more he necessarily has to expose his "real", incompetent self……" ~ Todd
  - Esther
    
    Your emperor has no clothes, he also has no mandate.
mallen11

The follow are great sources of information on the cult of Mormonism:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-book-of-mormon-vs-the-bible

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm

http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm
- Bighoss
  
  Good stuff, mallen11. But don't count on any of it persuading the die-hard Mormon dupes that there is anything false about their "prophets" or their bizarre belief system. They will resist the truth because they believe themselves to have had some kind of "burning in my bosom" that told them Mormonism was true. They will not be persuaded by hard facts and documented truth for so long as they allow their emotions to control their beliefs.
Ruth

I hope you all see it… But you CAN NOT DOWN VOTE on ANYTHING the MORMON Vladmir says on this site ! WHY ? Is this site promoting Mormonism ? If it is… How SAD….
John Adams

The mormon church has been on a campaign for decades to mainstream/normalize itself. I think that the campaign of romney was just another act in this campaign. Too bad the republican party fell for the game.
Bighoss

THIS kind of behavior on the failed candidate's part will not do much to endear either him or his cult to certain people:

FIRST, read this NBC news report of the night of the election:

<<>>

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15024793-the-last-days-of-romneyland?lite
______________________________

NOW read how those loyal, dedicated campaign workers were treated:

<<>>

http://bostinno.com/2012/11/09/romney-allegedly-cut-off-campaign-staffers-credit-cards-immediately-after-concession-speech/#ss__257760_257214_0__ss

It's the Bain Capital way, folks. Romney treated his campaign like he treated some of those those formerly thriving companies that crashed and burned under his heartless vulture capitalism. He simply pulled the plug and walked away.
- Bighoss
  
  Sorry about the jumbles above; read the links–they tell the story of this skinflint's callous treatment of his workers.
  - Vladimir
    
    Are you speaking in tongues again, Bighoss?
Crashaxe

Riddle me this Batman, right in the front page of the book of Mormon, it states "Another testament of Jesus Christ"

Now take them to Galatians 1:6-9 6

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Most times them missionary boys leave my house pulling there hair out.
- Vladimir
  
  Let me try and help you out, Crashaxe. Another testament of Jesus Christ is good. You can't have enough testaments of Jesus Christ. Another gospel of Jesus Christ is bad because there can be only one gospel of Jesus Christ and it must be brought forth by the power and authority of God. Hope this helps you understand better the scriptures.
  - Glen S
    
    Sorry Vladimir! The Bible says you are wrong. You are splitting hairs with the difference between "testament" and "gospel." Yet the Book of Mormon attributes words to Moses and others which don't actually exist. The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ appeared in the Americas, which He did not. And the Book of Mormon is said to be "revealed" to Smith, which Crashaxe pointed out is in direct contradiction to Galatians. The Bible cannot be true and false at the same time. God's nature will not allow Him to inspire these words at the same time as He is contradicting them.
    - Vladimir
      
      No, Glen S, the gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news about Jesus Christ. This good news is not limited to the Bible, however. Don't try and limit God's work. He can and does call His prophets when and where He chooses.
      - Glen S
        
        I'm not limited His work. But He clearly states that His work will be according to His nature, and He also clearly states that His nature is described in His Word. And His Word clearly states that of the holy writings of Mormonism on the Bible can be divinely inspired and inerrant.
      - Vladimir
        
        You limit His work because He wants you to gain faith, and follow His prophets. How can you when you don't recognize that Joseph Smith was the prophet of this dispensation and restored His church. You don't even know how to begin to find out if there is a living prophet today because your mind is closed. You think you have the truth, because you believe what you were taught first. Your pride in your learning will be your ultimate downfall. Your only hope is to humbly prayer for guidance. But you aren't humble because you know it all already.
      - http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/ Jeff Dixon
        
        That is a humorous comment from someone who believes he understands it better than the rest of us.
      - Esther
        
        You do not understand it at all.
      - Glen S
        
        Wow, quite a judgement!
        
        First, no dispensation (as you call it) can negate or take away from the Word of God. "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that
        you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." (Deut 4:2) "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20) "Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)
        
        "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)
        
        So, the problem within LDS is they claim that the Bible along with their own sacred writings all constitute God's revelations to man. Well, this is in direct conflict as the writings above clearly point out God's decrees that nothing should be added or deleted from the writings.
        
        When presented this point, an LDS member may then counter that the later "revelations" supersede previous. Well, if one holds to a belief that all revelation is from God; then new "revelations" whose very exi